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  • The Evil of the Daleks

    "This is your Emperor speaking!"
    Yes, but wich one?

    Any attempt to compile the history of the Daleks is going to be a little screwy, but after thinking about it long and hard, I still think we, the Tardis Data Core, are being significantly more confusing than we need to be when it comes to the identity of the first Dalek and Emperor, and, indeed, that we are being inaccurate to what the valid source material tells us.

    The Golden Emperor and the Dalek Emperor (The Evil of the Daleks) are currently treated as two separate characters and given two separate pages. So is the Dalek Prime. Or, rather, the Dalek Prime page is simultaneously treating the Dalek Prime as an individual and as a rank, as if Dalek Emperor and Dalek Emperor (The Evil of the Daleks) were a single page, which is weird enough.

    This is, in my opinion, going about this all wrong. Let me explain.

    Part I: Why the Dalek Prime appeared in "Evil of the Daleks"

    Let us first consider the Dalek Prime. All of its appearances but one are under the pen of John Peel, in his novelisations of televised Dalek stories and in his infamous Eighth Doctor vs. Daleks novel, War of the Daleks.

    Why Peel's Dalek Prime is one guy, and why that guy is the Emperor

    This is the easiest one: Peel's own Evil of the Daleks novelisation says in so many words that the Dalek Emperor in Evil of the Daleks is the first Dalek ever created, the Dalek Prime, who improved itself and declared itself the leader of its race. This tells us, incidentally, that in Peel's mind, "Dalek Prime" is to be taken as literally "the first Dalek", a very personal designation; not a rank in the same mould as "Dalek Supreme". He is the Dalek Prime, and it would be an oxymoron for there be a second one.

    Over the centuries, the Emperor Dalek had enhanced its own capabilities. It had begun its own existence as merely the first of the Daleks that the mad Kaled scientist Davros had created. It had been its weapon that had cut down their creator. It had been the Dalek Prime, the first among many. But that had never been sufficient.John Peel in the "Evil" novelisation [src]

    It would, furthermore, be completely uncalled-for to argue that the Dalek Prime in War of the Daleks is not the same Dalek Prime as in the other Peel books. Here is the Dalek Prime in War, going over the exact same data presented in the Evil of the Daleks novelisation:

    The first Daleks understood your futile madness when they elected to destroy you. I am the last survivor of those first Daleks, which is why I am the Dalek Prime. This is why I speak for the Daleks, and hold authority. I am the ancestor of the billions of Daleks alive today. I have guided the race throughout our history, and brought us to the position of strength we hold today. This entire galaxy is poised to collapse before us. This is my achievement and my claim to rule.The Dalek Prime in "War" [src]

    Consequently, it would be sheer bad faith to be wishy-washy about whether the Dalek Prime that Peel writes about in the novelisations The Chase, Mission to the Unknown and The Mutation of Time is the same Dalek Prime. In Peel's mind, the Dalek Prime is a character, not a title, and to make room for that possibility would be exactly as pointless as having scruples on whether, when a Doctor Who writer alludes to one of the Doctor's enemies who is a Time Lord known as the Master, they might not be referring to a different Reneagde Time Lord also calling themselves the Master.

    One might still question why the Dalek Prime in PROSE: War of the Daleks doesn't call himself the Dalek Emperor like he did in Evil, if he's really the same individual. But there is an easy answer for that: unlike all previous appearances of the Dalek Prime, War takes place post-TV: Remembrance of the Daleks. And in that story, we learned that Davros had declared himself the Emperor of his own faction of Daleks, such that in the Dalek civil war that ensued, members of the Davros's faction were the Imperials (while the other, pure-Dalek side was known as the Renegades). In light of this, obviously the Dalek Prime reverted to calling itself that rather than confuse everything by having the faction led by the Dalek Emperor not be the ones calling themselves the Imperial Daleks. Duh.

    Why Big Finish is neither here nor there

    The current Dalek Prime page seemingly only mentions AUDIO: The Thousand Worlds to declare it irrelevant: that story mentions a Prime Dalek being active in the Time War, but only the precedents of "Dalek Supreme"/"Supreme Dalek" and "Dalek Emperor"/"Emperor Dalek" even raise the possibility that "Dalek Prime" and "Prime Dalek" might be the same thing; it is little more than fannish speculation. More to the point, the War Doctor claims never to have heard the designation, even though, as we saw, the Dalek Prime as understood in the novels very memorably faced off against the Eighth Doctor.

    So what about AUDIO: The Four Doctors, then? Well, once again, I don't think Peter Anghelides was thinking of the same Dalek Prime as John Peel, at all. As we saw, the whole point of the name "Dalek Prime" in Peel's works is that it refers to the original Dalek; that is what those words mean. Yet the Dalek Prime in The Four Doctors is simply the commander of a Dalek assault vessel (I don't believe there is anything to suggest it's in charge of the Dalek Empire as a whole) and ends up being pulled back in time with the Doctor(s) to a Dalek war that predates his existence, so there's clearly no intent of its being the first-ever Dalek, either.

    Now, if you go to Dalek Prime right now, you'll find the following paragraph:

    According to another account, however, the battle of Pejorica, fought between the Daleks and the Jariden, occurred at a point in Dalek history prior to the creation of the Dalek Prime. The notion of the Dalek Prime as one of the earliest Daleks and their first leader would arise when, after travelling back in time, the Dalek Prime was able to take control of earlier versions of the Daleks, which didn't know about his existence and rank. (AUDIO: The Four Doctors)The Tardis Wiki on the Dalek Prime (retrieved 13/09/2019)

    I read that paragraph months ago (even reworded it a bit) before I knew more about The Four Doctors, and assumed that meant everything was A-okay and Big Finish were simply positing that the Dalek Prime being in charge of the Daleks at their very beginning was a result of its retconning itself into their past. That impression was completely unjustified, as it turns out. The Dalek Prime does manage to assume command of the Battle of Pejorica-era Daleks in The Four Doctors, but there is no hint that he went back any further, nor, indeed, much narrative opportunity for it to have done so.

    In conclusion, the only time Big Finish used the term of "Dalek Prime", it was in a context utterly unlike everything that had been done with the character until then. That Big Finish posits a long Dalek history before the Dalek Prime existed shouldn't cast doubt as to whether Peel's Dalek Prime is the Dalek Emperor, it should just make us create a Dalek Prime (The Four Doctors) page.

    First batch of requested changes

    Based on all the evidence above, I am firstly putting forwards the following batch of change, which I feel compelled to point out, could be implemented regardless of whether you also follow the second part of this massive, massive thread, I feel compelled to point out.

    One question remains: what would we title the page about the Dalek Prime, the singular fellow as understood by John Peel? Part of me feels like he's a primary enough topic to just keep Dalek Prime to himself, but then again, it would be more within established use to have "Dalek Prime" be about the 'title' and its various usages, while giving the Peel Prime a dab term.

    What would that dab term be, though? Peel tells us his Dalek Prime is the Dalek who shot Davros in TV: Genesis of the Daleks, which means that story is the Dalek Prime's "first" field in the current infobox, but Dalek Prime (Genesis of the Daleks) would sort of imply that there is a character called the Dalek Prime in the TV story, and the fact is that there isn't. So should we use the first story in which the name was used for this guy? That would be PROSE: The Chase, but of course the Dalek Prime didn't appear in the TV story of the same name, so once more we run the risk of confusing readers.

    Part II: Why the Golden Emperor is the Dalek Prime

    Crushing similarities

    The first thing to note is that John Peel very, very, very obviously meant for the Dalek Prime in PROSE: War of the Daleks to be the same individual as the Golden Emperor dear to all our hearts for his starring role in COMIC: The Dalek Chronicles. They have, for one thing, the same unique casing. Let me demonstrate:

    "Doctor," said a Dalek voice. "Welcome."
    Sam and the Doctor turned to face their host. It was a Dalek, but not like any she had seen before. This one was slightly larger than the others, with a bulbous head. It was a burnished gold colour, and had about a dozen lights about the expanded dome instead of the average Dalek’s two. "The Dalek Prime," the Doctor murmured.John Peel in "War" [src]
    GoldE

    The Dalek Emperor in The Dalek Chronicles.

    Granted, different Dalek leaders have had identical casings before. The Dalek Emperor in Parting of the Ways (whom, don't worry, I'll let stand as his own person, though neither is there any conclusive in-universe evidence that he isn't still the same old Dalek Prime AFAIK) had his casing repurposed by the Dalek Emperor in City of the Daleks, and it was made explicit that the City Emperor is a new Emperor installed by the Paradigm who used the old one's casing like a hermit crab stealing another sea creature's shell.

    But they're not different Dalek leaders, because they are both the first Dalek, in almost exactly the same way. COMIC: Genesis of Evil sees the first Dalek first moving about in the first of the regular Dalek travel machines before building itself the golden one, presiding over the creation of more Daleks, and finally proclaiming itself the Emperor. PROSE: The Evil of the Daleks tells us that its Dalek Prime was originally the Davros-murderer from TV: Genesis of the Daleks, who had a regular casing, and that he then created more of his kind and declared himself its Emperor; and PROSE: War of the Daleks completes the equivalence by showing us the Dalek Prime gets about in the golden casing in his functions as leader of the Dalek race.

    It goes something like this:

    The Golden Emperor The Dalek Prime
    The first full Dalek ever created (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) The first full Dalek ever created (PROSE: The Evil of the Daleks, War of the Daleks)
    Originally gets about in the very first standard Dalek travel machine. (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) Originally gets about in a standard Dalek travel machine (PROSE: The Evil of the Daleks through logical deduction of which Dalek in TV: Genesis of the Daleks is being referred to)
    Eventually discards the standard casing in favor of a golden one with a bulbous head and a bunch of lights (COMIC: The Dalek Chronicles) Eventually discarded the standard casing in favor of a golden one with a bulbous head and a dozen or so lights (PROSE: War of the Daleks)
    Has a history of organizing public showdowns, so as to convince his Daleks that he is their worthy leader, whenever another individual wants to seize power over the Daleks from him (COMIC: Duel of the Daleks, Shadow of Humanity) When Davros tries to seize mastery of the Daleks from him, organizes a public trial/shouting match to prove he is the worthy leader of the Daleks, not Davros (PROSE: War of the Daleks)

    "Genesis of Evil" isn't as irreconcilable as it seems

    Now, of course, the big thing is that in Peel's texts, the Dalek Prime's being the first-ever Dalek is contextualized as its being the first Dalek created by Davros, the guy who exterminates the scientist in question in TV: Genesis of the Daleks. Whereas in COMIC: Genesis of Evil, he comes into being as an unguided mutation from the neutron war and climbs into one of the travel machines designed by the scientist Yarvelling. Undoubtedly, some conflict exists.

    But… first, I would argue that conflict over origin stories doesn't stop two characters from being the same same individual if it's otherwise blindingly obvious that they are meant to be the same individual. The Seventh Doctor in PROSE: Lungbarrow was loomed into existence from discarded bits of Other DNA, the Seventh Doctor in TV: The TV Movie is "human on his mother's side" and has fond childhood memories of his father on Gallifrey. But they are both, for all that, the Seventh Doctor.

    And most importantly, John Peel's got you covered. How Genesis of Evil and Genesis of the Daleks can both coexist as valid origins of the Dalek is a topic that is given much attention in PROSE: War of the Daleks. When Davros insists to a Black Dalek that he created the Daleks, the Black Dalek answers with some of the Dalek Prime's wisdom:

    Incorrect. I was created by the neutron war. You merely accelerated the process. The Daleks would have arisen anyway in the fullness of time. The universe was ready for the rise of the Daleks. It was inevitable.The Black Dalek [src]

    In other words, says the Black Dalek, the Genesis of Evil account of the Daleks coming into being as unguided mutations is exactly what would have happened if Davros hadn't foreseen the Daleks' destiny ahead of time and accelerated their evolution.

    Davros does not deny this; instead, his next reply attempts to take credit for the technology the Daleks used, but accepts the premise that the "mewling balls of slime" didn't need his guidance to appear. Note also how he speaks of the species from which the Daleks sprang as simply "their humanoid ancestors", so that it could refer equally to Genesis of the Daleks’s Kaleds or to Genesis of Evil’s humanoid Daleks, depending on which name you prefer.

    Without me to guide your creation, the Daleks would have been as weak and pitiful as the humanoid race from which they sprang. It was my genius that created the travel machines you utilise. My genius that made you what you are. Without me, you would all be mewling balls of slime, without technology or a future.Davros [src]

    Moving along, we see the Dalek Prime (a firsthand witness in all this) restate the Black Dalek's faith in the fact that the Daleks would have come into existence without Davros as a fortuitous mutation, and even wrenches the "but I created your technology, your travel machines!" argument from Davros with this bombshell:

    You did not create the Daleks – our creation was a fortuitous consequence of war. We were destined to become the race we are today. Instead of allowing destiny to run its course, you interfered. That was the first time that you attempted to usurp the power of the Daleks. It was not the last. These travel machines we use were created by the scientists of the Kaled race. You took credit for their work to lend support to your claim of supremacy.The Dalek Prime [src]

    The Dalek Prime has just said that no, actually, Davros didn't create the Dalek travel machine; instead, some scientists of the pre-Dalek humanoid race came up with them on their own before Davros took credit. Was one those Kaled scientists called Yarvelling, one wonders? Dun, dun, dun.

    The Dalek Prime (a first-hand witness in all of this, do recall) has in essence told us that the original, correct timeline was a sequence of events perfectly matching up what we saw in COMIC: Genesis of Evil, but then Davros interfered with the Daleks' 'destiny', stealing the Dalek machine designs from the scientists who had designed them and accelerating the Daleks' evolution. And that is what we saw in TV: Genesis of the Daleks.

    To be sure, there are still some discrepancies between the two geneses: did Davros's species prior to the mutations call itself "Kaleds", or "Daleks"? And did they have blue skin and big foreheads, or look almost completely human-like? But those are rather minor, I think. When it comes to species name inconsistencies, the Silurians have had worse. And as concerns designs, one loses tracks of the many, many times Doctor Who has shown us a completely different monster and told us it's the same species as a past baddie (*cough* Cybermen *cough*).

    The point is that John Peel refers himself just as much to Genesis of Evil as he does to Genesis of the Daleks in War of the Daleks, and has the Dalek Prime know of the events of both firsthand. The first Dalek in one Genesis is also the first Dalek in the other Genesis, come into being early for timey-wimey reasons centered on the person of Davros. When the story reintroducing the Genesis of Evil Dalek origin story features a guy calling himself the first Dalek, who knows all about the events of Genesis of Evil, and looks and acts exactly like the Golden Emperor, then there's nothing speculative about pointing out that that character is the Golden Emperor.

    Second batch of requested changes

    • The page Creation of the Daleks should be amended to reflect that one account at least fully reconciles the Genesis of Evil and Genesis of the Daleks versions. There is still much comparison and "In one account" language to be written, but strictly delineating the two accounts as though they're just completely unrelated and irreconcilable will no longer do.
    • Golden Emperor should be merged into the Dalek Prime article, or whatever we're calling it if we decided to dab it once we've split off Dalek Prime (The Four Doctors) as documented in Part I.

    (By the way, Golden Emperor, while indeed used once or twice in-universe, really doesn't hold much water as the guy's most common in-universe name, even within The Dalek Chronicles. I get the feeling we call him that more because everyone else does than because this fits out naming policy. But that point is kinda moot if we go ahead with my suggested merges, as there will no longer be an independent Golden Emperor page and there would be no harm in retaining it as a redirect.)

    Afterword

    Well that was… crazily long. Phew. But it feels good to finally give forms to all these suspicions and ramblings that have been simmering in my head for a while, and I think the Wiki will be much improved for it if it deigns to acquiesce to my suggestions.

    Also, people who subscribe to the commonly-held opinion that War of the Daleks is a bad book should… well, first, they should reconsider: I read it in preparation for this thread, and while it has its flaws (yes, the Eighth Doctor's painfully bland coming off the likes of Vampire Science, and oh yes, the massive Skaro retcon is every bit as dumb and overwrought as everyone says it is), it's not Dimensions in Time either.

    But secondly and more relevantly, they should remember that how much we like a story shouldn't affect how accurately we cover its contents on the Wiki. You may not like having John Peel's writing affect how we cover the characters of Evil of the Daleks and dislikeGenesis of the Daleks, but hey, there are quite a few people who hate how Day of the Doctor makes us cover the end of the Time War, too, and that's no reason not to give it the full coverage it demands. Subjective quality differences between DotD vs. WotD aside, this is precisely the same thing.

    Also also: yes, I know that I used "COMIC: The Dalek Chronicles" as a citation several times in this thread, and this is naughty, because Dalek Chronicles is a series rather than a single story. I know. But this isn't a page, it's a thread, and so for clarity's sake I allowed myself this unorthodox mode of quotation. Besides, treating Dalek Chronicles as a series of stories rather than one very long serial is as much convention as doing the same for Trial of a Time Lord, if not moreso.

    A Post-Scriptum: Get That On Tape!

    Also also also: after some praiseworthy sleuthwork for User:Borisashton, this thread ended up digging up interesting information about the related subject of precisely what The Dalek Tapes; since it's as involved as War of the Daleks in the matter of "stories which attempt reconcile the two Dalek Geneses", this closely related topic was basically covered on this thread as well, de facto. Heck, "Geneses", of which The Dalek Tapes certainly is one, was right there in the title of this thread all along. Ergo, here's a third, I think fairly incontroversial requested change:

    • The Dalek Tapes should be valid, making it yet a third (well, fourth) version of the Daleks' origin, yet one which is in truth completely consistent with whichever of the other ones one favors, via an unreliable narrator.
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    • I have now pinged User:Skittles the hog to come take a look, considering that it was they who pegged the appearance of a "Dalek Prime" in The Four Doctors as a continuity point connected to the past Dalek Prime appearances, according to the revision history.

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    • Well, it's certainly true that many folks (myself included) have cringed away from reading deeply enough into War and Evil of the Daleks on account of their infamy, and this seems like a good explanation of what we've been missing.

      I'm not sure I'll understand your suggested changes to Creation of the Daleks until I see them happen, but I'm fully convinced that there should be separate pages for Prime Dalek and Dalek Prime (The Four Doctors), and that Golden Emperor and Dalek Emperor (Evil of the Daleks) should be merged into Dalek Prime (which, in my opinion, should stay undabbed as a primary topic).

      Frankly this proposal is such a straightforward application of the text that I can't imagine it meeting much resistance. While it'll undoubtedly get more attention here than it would on Talk:Dalek Prime, I encourage you to move forward without waiting on enough comments to form a consensus (or whatever).

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    • Well, I could create the Dalek Prime (The Four Doctors) page on my own, but I understand merging is the privilege of admins around here. Also, the issue of how (or whether) to dab the main Dalek Prime page remains.

      Concerning Creation of the Daleks, the thing is that the splitting into different parts, as though "Davros's account" (what does that even mean? Davros isn't the narrator of Genesis of the Daleks!) was wholly different from, and irreconcilable with, the "Yarvelling and the Dalek Emperor" account, and both separate from, and irreconcilable with, the "historical account" presented in The Daleks. And it is frankly ridiculous that "the Seventh Doctor's account" gets a whole paragraph to itself as though it were a full parallel account on part with the two Geneses.

      For a demo of what a more linear page taking into account War’s explanation of both timelines 'coexisting', simply see the way I rewrote the "Origins" section of the History section on the page "Dalek" a short while ago when I completely overhauled said "History" section. What I have in mind would be something like this, but longer and more detailed — moving chronologically through 1960's Dalek history, then introducing Davros through a citation of War about his meddling in Dalek destiny, and putting all details about Davros's creation of the Daleks there. I confess I don't know quite where We Are The Daleks would go in this scheme — I think that situation is most comparable to the utterly conflicting Cybermen origins, and we should take inspiration from however we'll handle the "parallel evolution" stuff once the dust settles on the merged Cyberman page.

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    • NateBumber wrote: Frankly this proposal is such a straightforward application of the text that I can't imagine it meeting much resistance. While it'll undoubtedly get more attention here than it would on Talk:Dalek Prime, I encourage you to move forward without waiting on enough comments to form a consensus (or whatever).

      Please leave that kind of determination to the admins. User:Scrooge MacDuck correctly posted his ideas here, and it is wiki policy to discuss such things before implementing them. I suggest you carefully read Tardis:You are bound by current policy thanks.

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    • There's a flaw with the premise that Dalek Prime and the Dalek Emperor in The Evil of the Daleks are one and the same: namely, that in John Peel's version of Dalek history, Davros was executed after the events of Revelation of the Daleks, The Dalek Masterplan (set in 4000) takes place soon afterwards, and Evil really is "the final end" of the Daleks. However, Evil has to be set before Remembrance of the Daleks, in which Skaro is destroyed (though admittedly there are ways to work around this), and in any case the Daleks have to survive in order to fight in the Last Great Time War.

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    • Thank you for that reminder User:Shambala108; I've just carefully reread Tardis:You are bound by current policy. What rule is User:Scrooge MacDuck proposing be changed? I must admit that I'm a bit startled by this, since the vast majority of other merger proposals haven't required forum threads.

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    • Doug86 wrote: However, Evil has to be set before Remembrance of the Daleks, in which Skaro is destroyed

      Ah… but aren't you forgetting what War of the Daleks is most famous for? It is in fact the story in which Peel hatched a ridiculously complicated retcon for why Skaro wasn't destroyed in Remembrance, so that he can go on believing that Evil takes place after Remembrance. Not that he says this explicitly, mind you, so we can continue placing Evil at a sane point in the timeline for our part. But that is absolutely not an argument for Peel's authorial intent being the two Primes aren't the same.

      (IIRC, the Trial of Davros, e.g. the scene Peel then expanded into War’s second act, is already related in his previously-published non-narrative Complete History of the Daleks, if you want to go back and check exactly where War slots in in Peel's headcanon. Again, we don't have to listen to that "where", only note that it is absolutely no obstacle to Peel thinking of both Primes as a single character.)

      Also, the Last Great Time War is neither here nor there. Even assuming we stick to Peel's theories in light of NuWho, obviously the answer to "how did the Daleks take part in the Time War if they were destroyed?" is the same as "how did Gallifrey even though it had already been blown up in the EDAs?": a thing happened, possibly a timey-wimey one.

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    • A mockup of what a Creation of the Daleks page more closely integrating the various accounts together in the way suggested by War can now be found at User:Scrooge MacDuck/Sandbox Alpha.

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    • I think that this can be compared to the implication in Legacy by Gary Russell that The Robots of Death took place on Japetus instead of on Kaldor, in that it is not only not supported by other stories but is in fact contradicted by others.

      Also, in AHistory Lance Parkin and Lars Pearson work out a way in which the Dalek Chronicles and Genesis can take place in the same continuity, although it does involve a great deal of speculation.

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    • AHistory isn't a valid source either way. And I'm not sure what exactly, if anything, you're comparing to the Japetus-Kaldor situation.

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    • I meant that it was an idea or theory supported by one Who author that has not gained wide acceptance by other authors and/or fans.

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    • Which "theory" are you comparing this to, though? Dalek Prime = Dalek Emperor, or "Genesis of Evil was destined to happen but Davros interfered and changed history"?

      Either way, what's your point? "Sometimes one DWU writer's interpretation isn't shared by other DWU writers, but the writer in question still manages to put their interpretation in a valid source" is inarguable fact but has little bearing that I can see on this discussion, especially as, unlike what I think is happening with Japetus/Kaldor (but I'm no authority on that issue) there aren't any stories which actually clash with the "Prime" and "Genesis" links drawn by Peel.

      AUDIO: Across the Darkened City comes closest, but A) it doesn't actually say in so many words that the Dalek Emperor proclaimed at the end is the one from Evil of the Daleks, even if the implications are clear in listeners' mind; and B) it doesn't actually preclude Genetic Experiment Two-One-Zero being the first-ever created Dalek. After all, Genesis of Evil may suggest the Dalek Prime was proclaimed leader soon after the Daleks' emergence, but The Evil of the Daleks already disagrees with this notion by positing that following the Neutron War, he he spent years doing genetic experiments on Skaro wildlife and eventually on himself. It is perfectly possible that it was in this way that he became the "Genetic Experiment" being tested by his fellows at the start of Darkened City and who, once he passed the test, was finally proclaimed the Emperor for good.

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    • I think most of the (minor) disagreement in this thread stems from the counterproductive mentions of "Peel's authorial intent". All that matters is what is spelled out in the text; making any references to authorial intent, whether it's supported by the text or not, is a non sequitur and just confuses other editors. Nobody should be talking about any author's interpretation at all, just the content of their stories.

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    • That's a fair point, but authorial intent is relevant (in a very narrow context) when it comes to the matter of identifying characters, I think — in much the same way, as I said, that even though it's technically possible the text is referring to someone else by the same name if looked at in a void, we know that if a Third Doctor story has him mention "that jackanape the Master", he means the Master.

      So my intent in the relevant section was to establish that in Peel's mind "Dalek Prime" is the name of a character rather than a Dalek rank, so that this same reasoning can establish that when he speaks of a Dalek Prime in other stories he means the same character rather than some other Dalek with "Dalek Prime" as their rank.

      Compare, for an earlier Wiki decision based on authorial intent of what character is being talked about in a situation where the text itself is ambiguous, the decision that the Cabinet Doctor is not the Shalka Doctor based on O'Mahony's words to this effect.

      But yes, that is where the relevance of "authorial intent" in this matter ends. Peel is free to think what he wants of Dalek History, but the only bits that matter to the Wiki are the one he squeezed into his valid works.

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    • Unfortunately authorial intent isn't relevant to even character identification. Authorial intent said that The War King was The Master, but the connection hasn't been made clear enough in-text, so the pages have stayed (mercifully) separate. The same goes for Ulysses and Daniel Joyce and the Doctor's father (at least until I open that Panopticon debate :P). I guess it's one thing if we conclude that two characters are the same based on in-text connections, and an author comes out and explicitly says they aren't, which indicates that we misread the evidence. But if a writer intends two characters to be the same, and there isn't enough evidence in-text to back it up, their intention is irrelevant.

      Thankfully, we don't need an ounce of authorial intent to conclude that the Dalek Prime = Golden Emperor = Dalek Emperor (The Evil of the Daleks), because it's sufficiently specified in-text. Setting aside Doug86's suggestion that the timeline doesn't line up - which I think you successfully countered - you've proved pretty definitively in OP that there is enough in-text evidence to conclude that the characters are the same.

      And I think Doug86 agrees. As I read it, his point of contention regards not what is stated in Peel's stories but what is stated in others. If there is conflicting information, it should definitely be treated analogously to Kaldor City's location in Legacy: the conflicting information will be included on the combined page via a "According to another account" clause. That's no worry.

      And that's my preferred approach for the Creation of the Daleks page, with the Davros-centric account we saw on-screen being placed alongside the "According to the Dalek Emperor", Genesis of Evil version of events. As it stands, User:Scrooge MacDuck/Sandbox Alpha reads a little like "Here's the Davros story, but here's what really happened," when I think really both of the two competing narratives should each be allowed to stand on their own merits. But that's just me.

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    • NateBumber
      NateBumber removed this reply because:
      Wrong "reply to" function
      18:54, September 18, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • User:Doug86, which specific stories do you have in mind that present information that conflicts with the identification between Dalek Prime, Dalek Emperor (The Evil of the Daleks), and the Golden Emperor?

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    • But what place would you make on "Creation" for War’s reconciliation of the two stories as Davros interfering with the Genesis of Evil version of event? The reason I wrote the page the way I did wasn't to marginalize the Davros accounts but simply to put the whole thing in the logical order of events posited by War, so first time as it originally was, then how it was rewritten to be. Which has the added benefit of matching up to the real-world order in which these stories were told.

      You write: “Thankfully, we don't need an ounce of authorial intent to conclude that the Dalek Prime = Golden Emperor = Dalek Emperor (The Evil of the Daleks), because it's sufficiently specified in-text.” That we don't. But I was merely worried about whether we could definitely say the Dalek Prime that Peel mentions in his novelisations of The Chase, Mission to the Unknown and Master Plan was the same Dalek Prime rather than possibly another Dalek belonging to the Dalek Prime rank as featured in The Four Doctors. Peel very very definitively meant for those mentions to be of his Dalek Prime, the character.

      (Also, Ulysses/Daddy Doctor may be another matter, but I'm fairly sure the reason we keep ignoring the War King=Master connection isn't so much the lack of clear in-universe hints as the fact that if we accepted the link, a bunch of stories featuring the War King would now have to be invalid because they didn't have the rights to use the Master. Think Cosmic Hobo. The problem isn't that we can't conclude he's the Doctor from the evidence, but that if we did, which if these were BBC-released stories we definitely would, we would then have to say Candy Jar was in breach of copyright.)

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    • The return of Davros most likely takes place after The Evil of the Daleks, since in that story the Daleks state that travelling in time has made the Doctor 'more than human', implying that they are unaware of the Time Lords at this point; but in Resurrection of the Daleks they are planning to assassinate the High Council of the Time Lords, having gained knowledge of them since then.

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    • That seems like speculation. Anything could have happened to make the Daleks say that. Especially considering that in the Chronicles they constantly use the word "humans" for "humanoids". Even if this didn't convince you, though, where would the actual problem be? It's all timeline trouble best left to the Howling, irrelevant to eh character's identity.

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    • The point is, that if the Davros stories take place after The Evil of the Daleks, then the Dalek Prime and the Emperor from Evil cannot be the same individual, as the Emperor was killed at the end of Evil.

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    • My point about Peel's intention very much being that Evil takes place after the Davros stories still stands.

      Also, apparent timeline contradictions never stopped us from considering two characters to be the same if they're otherwise obviously the same and identified as such: hello, Second Doctor in The Five Doctors prior to spreading of the Season 6B idea.

      Also also, a character apparently dying at the end of a story has never ever stopped us from considering that character reappears in a later story. Or are you asking that Davros The Magician's Apprentice must be considered to take place pre-Journey's End because Davros died in Journey yet appears alive in Apprentice?

      Also also also, the Dalek Emperor (The Evil of the Daleks) page as it stands already notes the Emperor is explicitly identified as having survived the Civil War by a Bernice Summerfield audio as well as a comic story.

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    • A full merged version of the Dalek Prime page can now be found at User:Scrooge_MacDuck/Sandbox_Beta.

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    • Right, so that was two months ago. Any chance of moving forward with all these changes? Or, failing that, any reason we shouldn't?

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    • The Dalek Tapes Logo9

      Not sure if this entirely relevant, but I saw on The Dalek Chronicles page that when the series was reprinted in DWM as The Dalek Tapes. I don't have access to these early issues so can't verify how extensive this is but it states that on a random planet an unspecified incarnation of the Doctor discovered a history of the Daleks and that's what we see in The Dalek Chronicles.

      Given Genesis of the Daleks being broadcast some years before this seems to imply or leave open the possibility of this history being wrong or corrupted in some way. Do we consider such reprints valid and if we do, how would we go about integrating it?

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    • I see no reason this wouldn't be valid; {{WhichDoctor}}'s existence is as good evidence as any that reprints which change things are considered valid on an equal basis with the original, for one thing.

      As for how we would cover this, that's a better question. Do we treat this as a prequel short story (The Dalek Tapes (short story)), or as a reprint-with-extended-material-constituting-its-own-story (The Dalek Tapes (comic story), with the reprinted comic strips being taken to be part of it), or just as an addition to Genesis of Evil not deserving of its own page? Perhaps we would need a page for this.

      That being said, the fact that this later story says the Doctor found a possibly-corrupted History of the Daleks doesn't supersede the fact that the original Dalek Chronicles were released with an omniscient narrator.

      e.g. even if we do try to lean on "the history the Doctor found may have been wrong", all we can say is:

      According to one account, the Daleks first came into being without Davros's influence from a race of blue humanoids; (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) the Doctor once found old, decayed records of the Daleks' history on a twilight world, which were consistent with this version of events. (PROSE: The Dalek Tapes).

      Not

      According to old records of the Daleks' history the Doctor once found on a twilight world, (PROSE: The Dalek Tapes) the Daleks first came into being without Davros's influence from a race of blue humanoids. (COMIC: Genesis Evil)

      Or at least that's what I think is Wiki policy — and quite right it is too if so — although here's a forma disclaimer that I am not an Administrator of Tardis and that as such, my understanding of policy isn't to be followed as gospel or anything. I could be wrong.

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    • First and foremost I think we need to see more of the unique panels from The Dalek Tapes. If the reprints continued in DWM for twelve issues it seems a bit hasty making any concrete decisions based on a single panel.

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    • Are you sure there were ever any? At a guess that image is just a fun in-universe way to start off the reprints, and then they just reran the strips as-were without any more significant changes or additions. Certainly looks that way to me. What gave you the impression there was anything more to it?

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    • I got the impression that all the opening and closing captions were edited. From The Dalek Chronicles (comic series):

      "The first block of reprints went uninterrupted from Doctor Who Magazine Issues 30-42 and used the title The Dalek Tapes. Those included the standard elements of the tape graphic and the series title, however sizing, placement, and the presence of the other elements varied. Tape number didn't alway receive a special font and the episode title was originally placed in the news box."

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    • Right, so I've gotten access to the DWM issues in question and can confirm The Dalek Tapes premise is kept throughout. First off, I'll cover the easier question of how to cover The Dalek Tapes as a story. I think The Dalek Tapes (comic story) is the way to go. Firstly, I don't know if it's just me that thinks this but when compared to the narrations mid-story in the original editions the new narration feels like it has a very documentary-style vibe to it with a lot of happening in the past tense rather than the present. For example, the start of the opening caption of what would be Genesis of Evil Part Two states: "The warlike nature of the Daleks had led to the near destruction of their race and planet. The devastation had enveloped the whole world of Skaro." Compared to the original: "For two years nothing stirred on Skaro, planet of the Daleks..."

      Genesis new panel

      COMIC: Genesis of Evil)

      The second and most obvious reason is the last panel of Genesis of Evil is new and does not appear in the original. The panel to the right depicting Skaro appears after the iconic conclusion of the original edition in which the machine Dalek was revealed that read "Skaro was not a dead world!"

      The point about the narrator is interesting. After reading the stories I think creating Narrator (The Dalek Tapes) would be a good idea. Sentences like "In the first two tapes the Daleks became mutated and inhabited their metal shells", "And thus ends the first of the Dalek Tapes", and "And so ends tape seven" all seem to indicate that an individual is recording himself recounting the stories or examining the content of the tapes and then the readers of DWM are lucky enough to get some visuals with it in the form of comics. The narrator also uses pronouns to give themselves a voice in sentences like "We must now look at tape 6", "Now we can follow the story as it unfolds" and "The next tape tells us of the Dalek attempts to rebuild their civilisation".

      As such, instead of:

      According to one account, the Daleks first came into being without Davros's influence from a race of blue humanoids; (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) the Doctor once found old, decayed records of the Daleks' history on a twilight world, which were consistent with this version of events. (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes)

      It would be something like:

      An individual once recounted or found evidence that indicated the Daleks were created as a result of a similar catastrophe but without Davros's influence (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes) from a race of blue humanoids. (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) The Doctor discovered these tapes many years later in an ancient library on a twilight world. (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes)

      For other articles like Drenz or Amaryll where the info presented doesn't conflict as much we could preface them with something like "According to the Dalek Tapes, (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes)" and then more fully explain the situation on that article.

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    • Fantastic sleuth-work, but I insist that it'd be disingenuous to act as though The Dalek Tapes putting all this info at a remove made the originals’ veracity questionable.

      Since Genesis of Evil itself is presented as unquestionable in-universe events rather than a version of history that is itself at a remove, what we have here is one story (Genesis of Evil) saying one thing in earnest, and then another (The Dalek Tapes) having a character find old records which may be reliable, but are in point of fact consistent with said thing.

      In other words, instead of

      An individual once recounted or found evidence that indicated the Daleks were created as a result of a similar catastrophe but without Davros's influence (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes) from a race of blue humanoids. (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) The Doctor discovered these tapes many years later in an ancient library on a twilight world. (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes)

      we'd have

      According to some accounts, the Daleks were created as a result of a similar catastrophe but without Davros's influence, mutating from an ancestral Thal-opposing race of blue humanoids. (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) Another account showed that an individual once recounted or found evidence of these events, retelling this history of the Daleks in the Dalek Tapes which the Doctor discovered many years later, in an ancient library on a twilight world. (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes)

      This seems like a similar situation to this recent short story that claimed that Destiny of the Daleks never actually featured Romana II, but rather the TARDIS's soul posing as her. I don't think we want to follow these kinds of in-depth retcons to decades-old stories blindly. It must be "one account says that Romana II did this, this and that upon regenerating (TV: Destiny of the Daleks), although another account stated that these actions were instead undertaken by the Doctor's TARDIS in human form. (PROSE: The Lying Old Witch in the Wardrobe)", for the sake of our collective sanity. Well, this is the same thing.

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    • I guess that's a good compromise. While it would be easier to ignore Genesis of Evil for the wiki to cover Dalek history, it probably isn't in the spirit of treating all media equally.

      Something your example showed that I'm happy about is just how similar the two accounts are to each other and therefore how understandable it is that somebody after the fact could get facts such as the Daleks' ancestors being blue and them not being called Kaleds wrong. Obviously we can't say that they're wrong but The Dalek Tapes stands as further proof if there need be any that Genesis and Genesis are not completely irreconcilable.

      More to the point though, I'd make a slight alteration to that draft because we need to remember that as far as I can see The Dalek Tapes does not actually contradict anything. It can exist in a world where Genesis of Evil is "true" as an accurate recollection of events but it can also exist in a world where Genesis of the Daleks (or even We Are the Daleks) are "true" as a corrupted or just wrong (on the part of the narrator) version of events.

      So instead of what you have above we'd have:

      According to some accounts, the Daleks were created as a result of a similar catastrophe but without Davros's influence, mutating from an ancestral Thal-opposing race of blue humanoids. (COMIC: Genesis of Evil) In an ancient library on a twilight world, the Doctor discovered a retelling of this history of the Daleks in the Dalek Tapes. The Tapes were either found or created by a different individual sometime after they had become a major galactic power in their quest for universal domination, long after their creation was ancient history itself. (COMIC: The Dalek Tapes)

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    • Looks good to me! And, regarding the similarity — indeed! In fact, if you throw in War of the Daleks’s statement that the Daleks' travel machines' designs were stolen by Davros from other scientists as detailed in the OP, all you'd need to reconcile the two accounts is to fudge the timeline a bit and either imagine all the Kaleds were blue, or that all the blue humanoids in the comics weren't blue, for the two stories to coexist.

      After all, the Dalek Prime in Genesis of Evil only says that it climbed into a Dalek War Machine of its own accord. It's imaginable that it might just have climbed out of a certain bunker when it confronted Yarvelling and Zolfian, and that it just didn't want knowledge that the Daleks hadn't created themselves to get out ever again.

      Although my favored option is still just War of the Daleks’s clear implication of Genesis of Evil being the natural timeline which Davros's meddling with history collapsed, all adjustments regarding what the Kaleds looked like aside.

      Let's not lose track of the original topic, though — do The Dalek Tapes say anything of note about the Dalek Emperor which differs from what is said in the original comics or in the John Peel novels?

      …Oh, and having recently rewatched The Dead Planet, I note that while the Thals know of the Daleks' ancestors as the Dals, the Daleks themselves, when describing their history to the Doctor, speak about "their Dalek forefathers" instead, saying that "there were two races on Skaro — the Thals, and us, the Daleks". So the name of the Dalek's humanoid forefathers isn't actually a discrepancy between Genesis of Evil and The Dead Planet at all.

      …Should that make the TV story the "first mention" of the Humanoid Dalek page's infobox, I wonder?

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    • There's nothing in The Dalek Tapes about the Emperor, no. Outside of the opening caption I posted when I first brought up the topic, all that can be really gleaned is the existence of the narrator and that they are narrating it after the Daleks have become a galactic power.

      I'd say that in light of that quote The Daleks should be added as the first mention. It's frankly surprising that nobody seems to have noticed before now that the Daleks said their ancestors were called Daleks and not Dals or Kaleds or something else.

      I have no more concerns about these proposed changes now then if you were to implement what we've discussed into your sandbox.

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    • I was conducting a final check for thoroughness via Special:Whatlinkshere and noticed that there was a reprint of Genesis of Evil in DW50Y 1. A quick inspection of our page revealed in the contents list there were chapters on all the main Dalek stories currently broadcast including Genesis of the Daleks and by extension the creation of the Daleks by Davros' hand. A very intriguing section called "Daleks in the 21st Century - An introduction to The Dalek Chronicles" is also contained within.

      Although it wouldn't be strictly necessary to close this thread without examining it greater detail it would be extremely useful to take a closer look at what I believe to be the only publication to explicitly address both Davros and Yarvelling, if not some nice linking narration reconciling the two even further there would no doubt be some material for the bts sections. I'll keep half an eye out for a copy and obviously it would be helpful if anyone on here has it would be willing to share its secrets.

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    • Well, I don't own that book, but I have just realised that DWMS The Dalek Chronicles doesn't actually contain an article called The Dalek Chronicles Found! as was mistakenly reported on the page until today, but rather another in-universe framing device by that name, which, similarly to the Dalek Tapes, posits that the contents of the book are a 2094 translation of some story-cubes about Dalek history. Interesting enough, although it doesn't actually change much of anything; its use on pages is much the same as that we could make of Dalek Tapes, and it doesn't say anything new about the creation of the Daleks or the rise of the Emperor.

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    • Just to clarify, as I assume they reprints were entirely as they appeared originally unlike The Dalek Tapes, do you propose that we classify the whole of DWMS The Dalek Chronicles as part of The Dalek Chronicles Found! or just the short article at the beginning?

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    • No, no, just the short "article". It's a prelude/prequel, not a whole frame thing like The Dalek Tapes.

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    • Ah, that makes it far less useful than The Dalek Tapes then. This is a very strange situation but I think T:NO RW applies here. We can't say all the stories in The Dalek Chronicles were in the Dalek Chronicles.

      Tell me if you agree with the conclusion that the only stories from the TVC21 run we can say are part of the in-universe Dalek Chronicles are Eve of War because of the mention of Dalek/Mechanoid relations and The Archives of Phryne because of its explicit mention. A story depicting the creation of the Daleks is also mentioned but we cannot be sure that it is referencing Genesis of Evil or Genesis of the Daleks et cetera.

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    • Agreed. Heck, we should even be circumspect on Eve of War, as this could theoretically be a different "the Daleks meet the Mechonoids" story. I think it's a fairly uncontroversial move of me to have included the relevant Dalek Chronicles stories that are being referenced in the ==Continuity== section of the page about the prose story, but as for whether the story-cubes directly match up to the comic stories from the real world… 'mafraid we indeed can't say that they do.

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    • Hmm, I might be having second thoughts about that last statement. Looking at the page that The Dalek Chronicles Found! is on, there is more context than originally appears. The in-universe article called The Dalek Chronicles Found! is the front page of the first issue of a newspaper called The Dalek Chronicles. The original prose ends with the words "The full story begins on Page 3", the start of the reprints.

      There might not have been any new material in the DWMS The Dalek Chronicles reprints but those reprints were recontexualised and given new meaning by the new material that was present. What do you think?

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    • I can help with the DW50Y 1. There's a short overview of what TV Century 21 and The Dalek Chronicles were about. It acknowledges Genesis of Evil as a "radically different theory" from Terry Nation prior to Genesis of the Daleks and describes it as an "alternate Dalek origin", but it's a real-world article and doesn't try to reconcile them. The reprints of Genesis of Evil aren't altered with any linking narration (nor is The Terrorkon Harvest which is also reprinted.) Interestingly, though, the introduction says The Road to Conflict is a prequel to Daleks' Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. rather than The Dalek Invasion of Earth. That's likely down to a contemporary effort to promote the former's release. Other than that, there's not a lot new on the issue.

      I feel like I should have said my piece on this sooner, since I'm the guy who added a lot of the John Peel Dalek novelisation info to the Dalek Prime page in the first place - I integrated some of it into other articles but was never brave enough to venture very far. From my own reading of the stories involved, the reasoning for the mergers is solid and the proposed changes are sound. And for my part, a clean-up on this scale of the various Dalek Emperor pages would be very welcome.

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    • Borisashton wrote: The in-universe article called The Dalek Chronicles Found! is the front page of the first issue of a newspaper called The Dalek Chronicles.

      There I disagree with you on the interpretation. As seen from the way I cropped the page image, I think the "The Dalek Chronicles" logo on top of the page isn't part of the short story, but rather the overall title page for the book. What sense would it even make for the newspaper whose summer special is about the recent recovery of the Chronicles to be named after the Chronicles, anyway?

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    • Oh, it defintely doesn't make sense, I'd put it down to lazy editing. It doesn't actually matter what the newspaper is called as long as we know it exists. I certainly have no strong feelings about it.

      Do you agree with the last bit about the stories being part of the newspaper? It's in the same font as the article and if it were not part of The Dalek Chronicles Found! I would find it strange to link into the next page by referring to it as page three.

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    • Well, here's the thing: within the conceit of The Dalek Chronicles Found! being a clipping of an in-universe newspaper, it wouldn't be page 2, but rather the front page.

      Ergo, while there's definitely a metafictional in-joke to that effect, we cannot chalk up the real-world Page 3 featuring Genesis of Evil to the in-universe Page 3 of the (nameless?) newspaper.

      Consider that separately from the "See it begin on Page 3" line of the newspaper, there's a table of contents which clearly isn't part of the story any more than the box containing the editorial credits for DWMS The Dalek Chronicles.

      Also, if the whole book were "part of the story", you'd expect true bookends, with a return to the conceit of a newspaper framing at the end of the book. There is none.

      All in all, it's somewhat arbitrary either way, but I still think the most straightforward, common-sense way of covering The Dalek Chronicles Found! is as a short story "prologue", akin to DWM's comic prologues for novels and audioplays, rather than as a "reprint with additional framing device" like The Dalek Tapes or The Incomplete Death's Head.

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    • Fair enough, I'm just trying to be thorough. I'll return back to the position discussed in #40 and #41.

      And thanks to User:TheCoud'veBeenKing's help, with every publication that references the TV21 strips in any meaningful way thoroughly examined, I can now be absolutely certain I have no more concerns about this thread and that I am happy for it to be closed.

      Since there has been little dissent to the proposed changes, I look forward to hopefully help implement them soon!

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    • I've made a few small edits to the "merged Dalek Prime" sandbox. Could we get a move forwards with this?

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    • Final nail in the coffin of the Dalek Prime in The Four Doctors being the Dalek Prime: I have noticed upon relistening to it that the pair of that Prime and its damaged Special Weapons bodyguard are referred to as "a Dalek Prime and a damaged Special Weapons Dalek". A Dalek Prime, not the Dalek Prime. It isn't even remotely the same thing as the guy from the John Peel novels.

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    • As this thread is still open, I thought it would be worth bringing up another passage from the novelisation of The Evil of the Daleks regarding the Black Dalek from most of the John Peel novels. After the Doctor goes to Skaro, he comes across another Black Dalek:

      The Doctor stared at it with interest. The Black Dalek had been the second in command of the Dalek race. He had been instrumental in its destruction on Kembel. Was this the same one, meaning that they were earlier in time than the events of the Daleks’ masterplan? Or was this a new one, and was this later? He shrugged. He would find out soon enough.The Evil of the Daleks (novelisation)

      Shortly after, he finds his answer:

      He noted several other Black Daleks. So this had to be later in time than the affair on Kembel. That had been about AD 4000.The Evil of the Daleks (novelisation)

      This is the clearest link drawn between the Supreme Dalek in Master Plan and The Chase to the Black Dalek Leader from The Dalek Chronicles - also an "irreplaceable" second-in-command Black Dalek (who never was destroyed during the comic series). If the Dalek Prime and various Emperor pages are to be merged, should a similar merge take place between the separate Black Dalek Leader and Supreme Dalek (The Chase) pages? The Dalek Prime/Emperor isn't likely to have two "irreplaceable" Black Dalek second-in-commands after all.

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    • Which way should they be merged? I noticed you put the merge tag on Black Dalek Leader but as Duel of the Daleks was released before The Chase doing it that way would mean we would have to both merge the two pages together and rename the destination page to have the correct dab term.

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    • It was actually me who placed that Merge tag (as a sign of my support), not TheCould'veBeenKing. Sorry for any confusion!

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    • The merge tag was placed by User:NateBumber. I myself agree that the Black Dalek Leader page should be retained while the info from Supreme Dalek (The Chase) is merged onto it.

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    • I agree with TheCould'veBeenKing. It's the same reasoning as why the merged Dalek Prime-Dalek Emperor-Golden Emperor page should be at Dalek Prime — "Dalek Prime" and "Black Dalek Leader" are the singular designations of these individuals, who also, at some points in their lives, held the titles of Dalek Emperor and Supreme Dalek.

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    • Okay, that makes sense. With that feedback I've swapped which page the Merge tag appears on! Thanks everyone.

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    • Right, okay. I'm glad the confusion is cleared up and even more glad everyone seems to agree on these additional changes!

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    • As with Scrooge MacDuck's own proposed merged version of the Dalek Prime page, I've whipped up another for the Black Dalek Leader at: User:TheCoud'veBeenKing/Sandbox II.

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    • Your Could'v'Been Majesty: that merged page looks great.

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    • Hello there. I'm a long-time lurker, first-time writer.

      I've been reading articles on this wiki for years and always found the 'Dalek Prime' and 'Dalek Emperor' pages a bit lacking. And now I've stumbled upon this thread, and I got to say, I think Scrooge MacDuck's version is far superior to the current article. I completely agree with this way of going about things.

      So I'm wondering, why hasn't this been implemented into the real article yet?

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    • Because on this wiki, new policy from forum threads is only implemented if/when an admin closes the thread in its favor.

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    • Slight addition to all the above: just stumbled upon the stub Emperor Dalek (Nemesis of the Daleks), which I think should rather self-evidently also be merged into the merged Dalek Prime page. It's the Dalek Emperor, it looks like the Golden Emperor and it's the Emperor with whom Davros competes for leadership of the Dalek Empire in the Seventh Doctor's era, who else could it be?

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    • It should be noted that this DWM Emperor is explicitly destroyed at the end of Emperor of the Daleks!, which is between Revelation and Remembrance for Davros and the Daleks, so that wouldn't add up with with the Dalek Prime/Golden Emperor being around in War of the Daleks. Filling in that page now.

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    • There was clearly a feeling, at one point, that the Renegades in the War were ruled strictly by the successive Supreme Daleks. It was a bit of a retcon when PROSE: War of the Daleks revealed that the Supremes had been acting on the orders of the Dalek Prme, all along.

      But I think it's a retcon that the (singular) Emperor didn't really die in Emperor of the Daleks!, rather than a retcon that the Emperor in these comics was an impostor or decoy. Remember that War of the Daleks has a plot point of the Dalek Prime faking his death thanks to a remotely-controlled, automated duplicate of his casing…

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    • There is one more issue. Just reread Nemesis of the Daleks and I see that the Emperor doesn't have a clue who Davros is, to the point that when the post-Remembrance Seventh Doctor confuses him for Davros, he replies "Davros? Who is Davros?" That doesn't sound like the words of the first Dalek who "exterminated" Davros in Genesis.

      To be honest with you, when creating the page I took it for granted that the Emperor in Nemesis and Emperor was the same since they are pretty much the same design-wise, that and the fact that Emperor is basically a sequel to Nemesis (from Abslom Daak's point of view at least). In retrospect I'm not too sure.

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    • A high-ranking Dalek not knowing who Davros is seems a very odd beat however you slice it. The Daleks in Destiny of the Daleks are clearly fully aware of their history even before Davros returns in the flesh. Are you sure the line isn't meant to be an ironic boast? "Davros? What century are you from? He's so yesterday's news I'm going to feign not even remembering who that twerp is. This is my Empire now."

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    • Hmm, I did consider that before you said it, though personally I would have expected the Emperor's reaction to be one of anger ("DO NOT BLASPHEME!"). But yeah, that a Dalek Emperor would genuinely not know who Davros is pretty jarring. That the Emperor was feigning ignorance is the only explanation I can think of.

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    • While the emperors in Nemesis of the Daleks and Emperor of the Daleks! look identical, they are likely not the same individual. The last time we see the emperor in Nemesis, he's on the Dalek Death Wheel-spaceship. This ship blows up not too long afterwards.

      I would prefer if at least the emperor from Emperor was also Dalek Prime. That would mean that Prime killed Davros, then Davros rose from the dead and had Prime killed. Alas, that seems to not be the case.

      The "Who is Davros?"-line from Nemesis confuses me too. I assumed that so much time since Davros' era had passed that no records of him exist anymore. No current Dalek knows who he is. This would mean that the emperor in Nemesis is not Dalek Prime. Nemesis is supposed to take place sometime in the Frontier in Space-era, right? That's likely before Davros is resurrected in Destiny of the Daleks. If I don't remember wrong, Emperor of the Daleks! might as well take place centuries later from the Daleks' perspective.

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    • But Daleks do not die of old age. The fact is that the Dalek Prime is all but stated in War of the Daleks to have been the Emperor, all along, up to that point in the Daleks' timeline. He was the Emperor at the very beginning, and he's still Emperor now.

      There is some wiggle room for his to have gone into hiding at one point or another, allowing for spurious other Emperors; the Emperor in Dalek Attack, who is favourable to Davros, might be one of those. But the fact that two given Dalek stories take place hundreds of years apart shouldn't change anything about whether the Emperor in them can be the Dalek Prime; it's already officially the case, per War and Evil, that the Prime's reign spans a wide breadth of Dalek history and that it changed casings several times.

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    • I meant that Daleks go to war constantly, and sooner or later, all of the original Daleks would have to die.

      I agree with you that Prime does wear different casings throughout his appearances. In fact, he says in The Secret of the Emperor something to the effect of "I have to be rebuilt!"

      The fact that Prime seems to have been in charge of the Dalek Empire since the beginning in War of the Daleks makes it hard to fit with a lot of other stuff.

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    • Snorki McBolderbast wrote: While the emperors in Nemesis of the Daleks and Emperor of the Daleks! look identical, they are likely not the same individual. The last time we see the emperor in Nemesis, he's on the Dalek Death Wheel-spaceship. This ship blows up not too long afterwards.

      I would prefer if at least the emperor from Emperor was also Dalek Prime. That would mean that Prime killed Davros, then Davros rose from the dead and had Prime killed. Alas, that seems to not be the case.

      The "Who is Davros?"-line from Nemesis confuses me too. I assumed that so much time since Davros' era had passed that no records of him exist anymore. No current Dalek knows who he is. This would mean that the emperor in Nemesis is not Dalek Prime. Nemesis is supposed to take place sometime in the Frontier in Space-era, right? That's likely before Davros is resurrected in Destiny of the Daleks. If I don't remember wrong, Emperor of the Daleks! might as well take place centuries later from the Daleks' perspective.

      Working on the Second Dalek War pages recently, I've reached much of the same conclusions. I've noticed Nemesis and Emperor! tend to get mistakenly lumped together as if they're a Part 1 and Part 2. But apart from the latter briefly revisiting the former in order to bring back Abslom Daak and the Kill-Wagon crew, the stories are separate and deal with Daleks from different eras (Nemesis, the Second Dalek War; Emperor!, the Imperial-Renegade War) and the Emperors, while identical, are not the same (unless they're both the Dalek Prime).

      From my reading, I reckon it's more likely the Nemesis Emperor (Nemperor) is the same as the Dalek Emperor from The Dalek Conquests (Conquemperor), who approves Operation Divide and Conquer. They're both active during the Second Dalek War. And while it's possible one is the successor of the other, it doesn't seem likely. Reason being that if the Earth Empire was powerful enough to take down Conquemperor, how can they still be in such dire straits at the end of the war in Prisoner of the Daleks? Even if they got him by accident, then at the very least, you'd think somebody would mention, "How can we have killed the Emperor in '65 [or whatever] and still be doing this badly?!"

      I think is that Conquemperor is Nemperor, and he finally bit off more than he could chew with Operation Genocide. Bear in mind, Nemperor and the Death Wheel were blown up not by Earth forces, but by a motley crew comprised of the Doctor, Daak and a band of Helkans. Not to mention that this happened above a quiet and primitive world where the Daleks are afforded a lot of secrecy. So like Nazi propaganda pretending Hitler's not dead, the Daleks keep the death of Nemperor/Conquemperor a secret, with no reason to publicise it to Earth. Then Prisoner happens where nobody mentions the Emperor, the Supreme Dalek is in charge and the Daleks have quietly woken up to the fact they're losing the war. (The Supreme Dalek may also be the one from Planet but let's not worry about that.)

      It makes more sense than there being multiple Emperors for no given reason. The jury's still out on whether these Emperors are also the Prime, but if this thread exists to clear various disparate Dalek pages, I think merging Conquemperor with Nemperor is a move. (If we're being really strict, both pages should maybe be merged into a page called Emperor Dalek (Doctor Who and the Planet of the Daleks), as that's where this one's first mentioned.)

      If we can reconcile all (or at least most) classic Emperors as the Prime, then a lot of the above is moot. But until we're so confident, a smaller merger is a decent place to start, though the information about Emperor of the Daleks! will have to go somewhere else.

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    • Very impressive research, albeit secondary to the main issue.

      As for whether we can "reconcile all (or at least most) classic Emperors as the Prime", I'm unclear on how the Second Dalek War is meant to relate to the Imperial-Renegade Civil War, is all. Reading the page for the 2DW, the final paragraph of Second Dalek War#Operation Genocide seems to imply that it all takes place before the civil war breaks out. If so, then War of the Daleks clearly identifies the Prime as the Emperor who was pulling the strings of the Renegade side all throughout the Civil War, through the succession of Dalek Supremes. So it would stand to reason that Conquemperor and Nemperor are also the Prime, even if they weren't already depicted as having the round-headed casing.

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    • Emperor!s continuity is a tough beast to explain (would not recommend to newcomers!). Writing about the only bit relevant to the 2DW (all confined to Part Two) was a timey-wimey nightmare. The two wars aren't really related - the IR Civil War-era Daleks go back in time to save Daak from the Death Wheel, send him to Hell to find the Doctor, then they scoop them all out of the 26th century and the 2DW is no longer relevant to the story.

      Parts Three to Six of Emperor! - the main bulk - bridge the gap between Revelation and Remembrance. Though the Emperor (... Empemperor?) is having trouble with Davros, there's no real war until Davros' Spiridon army attacks and pushes all the way back to Skaro. A text box calls this "the first round of what will become a bitter civil war", so that's what the paragraph means when it says civil war is "brewing". (This takes place after 4590 based on the Resurrection novelisation.)

      I agree that Empemperor in this story and the Dalek Prime are the same individual though. While Davros's Daleks kill Empemperor, you previously pointed out that the Prime uses a decoy in War, which also explains that he's been playing a chess game of his own. On the same note, I do think it's possible that Nemperor and Conquemperor are also the Prime - Nemperor evidently having escaped the Death Wheel. And I'm totally on board with the idea that the casings change, don't worry about that.

      I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Prime's chronology in this era, since Emperor! doesn't really read as a proper sequel to Nemesis for anyone except Daak. If it helps, here's a rough layout of what the Dalek timeline, and the shape of Prime's post-Great War reign, seems to look like this:

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    • A Dalek Emperor seems to die in all of Evil , Nemesis, and Emperor of the Daleks!. I therefore have a hard time accepting all of them as being the Dalek Prime. And I personally don't like the idea that none of these are the real McCoy. These being only decoy-casings feels cheap. But I guess that's necessary if we are to fit everything into one narrative.


      This is semi-irrelevant, but the Third Dalek War article states:

      The Third Dalek War took place around the same period as the Human-Draconian War, which took place in 2520 and led to the Second Dalek War, which ended "over forty years" later, circa the 2580s.

      Does that mean that the Third Dalek war happened before the Second one?

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    • Nemesis and Emperor are more complicated, but it's undoubtable that the death in Evil was circumvented somehow and that the Emperor in that story was the Prime. Which does set a precedent. I don't think, mind, that we should speculate about decoy casings on the page (that's simply a hypothetical to make people on here see that it is possible for the Prime to escape any one death). We don't need to get into how the Emperor shows up after his apparent death any more than we do for any time Davros or the Maste return from certain death.

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    • Evil Emperor, at least, is revealed to have survived the civil war in The Lights of Skaro (at least according to the wiki article, I'll see if I can confirm that), and both sides say his forces win (Bringer of Darkness, Children of Skaro), so he's still able to have tonnes more whacky adventures after that.

      So there's scope for the Prime to be Emperor all the way up to at least Nemesis (with "Who is Davros?" meaning "Davros? What? Where? Which Dalek in this room is Davros?"...?)

      As to the Dalek Wars, no, 2 takes place before 3. It's a bit of a cluttered paragraph where I try to talk about too many wars in one elongated sentence. I'll have a go at rephrasing it.

      Scrooge brings up another point though. It wouldn't be the only time the wiki has to deal with contradictory information within an article, Doctor Who being as big as it is and continuity hiccups abound. From Dodo's backstory, to Borusa's fate, to the many deaths of the Master, to UNIT dating. What's one more unexplained Dalek Prime survival among friends?

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    • Here's what I've found regarding the Emperor surviving Evil.

      Bringer of Darkness: On the outcome of the Civil War, one Dalek says, "The traitor were destroyed! The Emperor reigns supreme!"

      Children of the Revolution (not of Skaro, my bad): The Doctor finds a colony of Humanised Daleks led by Alpha. The Doctor assumed the Humanised Daleks were too small in number to win and thought they had all been wiped out. Alpha explains a number of them escaped Skaro when they realised the Emperor's forces were winning.

      The Lights of Skaro: Benny is caught in a number of time jumps which take her through different points in Skaro's history. She sees visions of the Civil War and comes across what she thinks is the dead remains of the Emperor, but then he speaks to her and questions why the Civil War happened. She claims he is dead, calling him a "ghost" and a "phantom" but this seems to be in the context of what she is experiencing having happened in the past. Because he is unarmed, Benny just walks away.

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    • Some more observations about the scene in Lights.

      Benny says of the Emperor: "You're just a huge Dalek brain. The only Dalek that's allowed to think." It slots right in with what we know about the Prime/Golden Emperor.

      • In the Evil novelisation: "the Dalek Prime could never risk another Dalek evolving beyond its own capabilities [...] Its mental powers were a hundred times greater than any other member of the race."
      • In The Secret of the Emperor: "We know that our Emperor has the greatest brain in the universe - so we will elect him again!"

      The Emperor also tells Benny the Daleks are not evil, they believe that strength and power are essential for survival. They seem to view human qualities as capable of eroding that idea, and therefore threatening their survival. That's pretty much the same as what the Golden Emperor sets out in Shadow of Humanity.

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    • Okay, so the Evil Emperor survived the Evil-civil war. And this emperor is Dalek Prime, since the novel confirmed it. Okay.

      What evidence is there for Evil of the Daleks being set after the Movellan war and the Imperial/Renegade civil war? I seem to recall Evil coming before... but maybe I'm misremembering. The reason I'm asking is that if Prime survives Evil, then he can pop up and die in Emperor of the Daleks! without any problems.

      Of course, this still leaves the issue of how he can appear in War of the Daleks after that... And then there's Nemesis, which in any case has to come before both civil wars...

      Emperor! and Lights of Skaro seem to say that Prime survived the Evil war, but dies in the IR war. However, War and the Evil novelization says he survived the IR war, but dies in the Evil war.

      What a confusing mess.

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    • Evil isn't set after those stories. It's just dawned on me that I've used "Civil War" to refer to two different conflicts, so sorry if that caused any confusion. To clarify:

      • The Dalek Civil War is the one between the Humanised Daleks and the Emperor that happens in Evil. This one stems from the Great War which links it to Master Plan, according to the Evil novelisation.
      • The Imperial-Renegade Dalek Civil War is the one against Davros and the Emperor. This one has roots in the Movellan War and spans from Resurrection, Revelation, Emperor!, Remembrance and War.

      The Dalek Civil War happens first. Peel's Evil novelisation treats it as a kind of finale to early Dalek history. His novelisations were mostly interconnected while also tending to incorporate elements or aspects from The Dalek Chronicles and the 60s Dalek annuals. This is the period of Dalek War Machines and Silver Daleks, the Golden Emperor, the "irreplaceable" Black Dalek Leader and unstable taranium time machines. It this Civil War that Lights, Bringer and Children are talking about. This early era appears to look roughly like this.

      Genesis (either one), The Daleks/Chronicles, Invasion of Earth, Dalek Book, Dalek World, The Chase, Outer Space Book, Master Plan and Evil

      After that comes Day. It's never explicitly said to come after Evil but the Daleks have better time travel by then, they know the First and Second Doctors, and in the Day novelisation, the Doctor says "I thought I’d destroyed them once before, but I was wrong." Conquests suggest this is the point at which the Time Lords start taking the Daleks seriously.

      Eventually they get to Frontier and so on, and follow the rough timeline laid out in the previous post. The Daleks exterminate their merry way through time and the universe until Davros comes back during the Movellan War and starts challenging the Emperor/Prime's authority. And that's when the Imperial-Renegade Civil War happens.

      Therefore, minus one (apparent, but unseen) death aboard the Death Wheel in Nemesis, the Prime could have a clear run from Genesis all the way up to Emperor!. Then it's just a bridge between Emperor! and War.

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    • Maybe you're right that Evil should go before Day of the Daleks. I've always imagined that the Daleks' hatred for the human factor in Evil is what made them abandon their biological components, meaning that Evil would lead into Destiny of the Daleks. I don't think any official source supports that theory, though.

      I believe the idea that Evil is after the IR civil war comes from the fact that it is often treated as the final end of the Daleks. I've even read theories about the Evil-emperor being Davros, following on from Terror Firma. Of course, that wouldn't work if Prime is that emperor.

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    • Hey, I just had a thought.

      If Dalek Prime was truly the first Dalek created, wouldn't he be the same individual as Baran, the Thal spy who is turned into the first Dalek at the end of I, Davros 4?

      Should Baran and Dalek Prime's ideally articles be merged too?

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    • I don't think so, no. The Dalek Prime is the first true Dalek — the one we see exterminate Davros in Genesis of the Daleks and give the "this is only the beginning" speech to the camera. Baran, by contrast, seems to be the first prototype — in a Mark 1 rather than Mark 3 travel machine.

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    • I had a listen to I, Davros again. In the bonus features-interviews, Nicholas Briggs says "Finally, what I think is a fantastic irony [...] is that the first Dalek is in fact a Thal that's been experimented on."

      This seemingly confirms that Baran is in fact the first Dalek - the same title that Dalek Prime has. And there's no reason that the Baran-mutant couldn't survive the upgrade from a Mark I to a Mark III travel machine.

      Sure, this is behind the scenes, and therefore not a valid source. But I think it should at least be mentioned somewhere that indirectly Nicholas Briggs at least considers Baran and Dalek Prime to be the same individual.

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    • I've read through the discussion, and there's something I wanted to point out.

      In The Heart of the Battle, from The War Doctor: Only the Monstrous, at the 27 minute mark, a Dalek in the background can be clearly heard saying "Protect the Dalek Prime", despite the fact that throughout both this story and the previous one, The Thousand Worlds, the "Dalek Prime" is constantly referred to as the "Prime Dalek". This sounds strange, given that the War Doctor doesn't express any familiarity with the term "Prime Dalek", and makes no mention of the Dalek Prime at any point.

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    • An interesting data-point to be sure. I'd assume this is just Nicholas Briggs applying the usual "Dalek Supreme = Supreme Dalek" standard to his invented designation of "Prime Dalek", without taking stock of the fact that the phrase Dalek Prime already existed. Besides, this is a Last Great Time War story. Big Finish's output doesn't always emphasise it but it shouldn't surprise us if something about the Daleks' stated history doesn't quite make sense, in the context of the Time War.

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    • Although there's no real hard evidence to support this, my personal headcanon is that the Dalek Prime's varying accounts occurred due to the effects of the Last Great Time War: it started as the Dalek Prime from the novelisations / War / Legacy of the Daleks, then had its past rewritten so that it became a Dalek rank rather than an individual (like in The Four Doctors), then got rewritten again to become the Prime Dalek in Only the Monstrous.

      On a side note, Nicholas Briggs voiced the Dalek Prime in The Four Doctors, so I'd imagine he's familiar with the term "Dalek Prime" as something more than just a word reversal of "Prime Dalek". Then again, there's a 5-year gap between The Four Doctor and Only the Monstrous, so maybe he forgot.

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    • Right. So. COMIC: Defender of the Daleks has just made our golden boy current again, so it'd be nice if we could bring this to a resolution…

      The comic seems to take place within some sort of alternative timeline, as the Daleks have no memory of the Last Great Time War having ever happened, but all the same, it does provide some interesting data. The Doctor recognises the Golden Emperor as "the Emperor of the Daleks" and isn't surprised to see him rather than a later model; and more to the point, he recognises him.

      Which would be quite a trick if we don't recognise that the Dalek Prime in War of the Daleks and/or the Emperors in the DWM comics weren't the Golden Emperor, because of the currently-accepted list of appearances of the Golden Emperor, none of them involves the Doctor.

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    • Also of note is that the introduction page, albeit not part of the narrative, refers to:

      The Emperor. The almighty leader of the Daleks - The Doctor's greatest enemy - his golden battle armor portrays his royal superiority. Merciless, the Emperor strives for universal domination.

      So that at least shows intent in that it implies the existence of non-battle armour for this same Emperor in other appearances, such as in Evil. I suppose it's just more comfy in there.

      Also, apparently the Dalek Prime Strategist is older than the Emperor, but that's only by his own reckoning.

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    • Yes, that's true — and a bit odd. I'm not quite sure what they're going for here. But the Doctor's immediate reaction to this claim is "and yet he’s the Emperor, isn't he?", which could be expressing skepticism about the claim thanks to the Doctor knowing that the Golden Emperor is Emperor because he's the original Dalek.

      Speaking of which, while it could be coincidental, the fact that the Golden Emperor's main advisor is the Dalek Prime Strategist is — it's not exactly irrelevant to proving the Golden Emperor is the Dalek Prime, is it?

      At any rate, I've updated my sandbox with the information from Defender of the Daleks.

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    • Ah! Finally, a bit of clarity on the one remaining mystery in this thread, the intended meaning of "Davros? Who is Davros?" in Nemesis of the Daleks. I am told that Nemesis was actually originally written with the intent that it would take place some time after the Shoreditch Incident in Remembrance of the Daleks, and so, the Emperor in Nemesis was Davros himself having further degenerated himself into a Dalek. The casing is, after all, patterned after the Remembrance Emperor casing, except with an eyestalk added. And so the meaning of the line was to show that Davros himself had begun to lose his grip on his own identity, lost to the Emperor persona — the same idea later used in AUDIO: Terror Firma. The full exchange spells it out pretty clearly:

      Doctor: "For pity's sake, Davros, have you lost all sense of compassion?"
      Emperor: "DAVROS? WHO IS DAVROS?"
      Doctor, quietly: "Ah… I see that you have."'Nemesis

      …And then, Emperor of the Daleks! completely retconned the place of the events of Nemesis relative to the Imperial-Renegade Civil War and thus making it impossible for the Emperor in Nemesis to have been Davros.

      I'm unsure what we should do about this.

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    • Aah! That makes sense! At least I think so... It's been a while since I read either Nemesis or Emperor. Is it possible that the Nemesis-Daleks are time-travelers from post-Remembrance? That would mean that Davros' timeline would look like this:

      Emperor of the Daleks! -> Remembrance of the Daleks -> Terror Firma -> Nemesis of the Daleks (in which he likely dies, since the space-base blows up). And then via Last Great Time War-shenanigans, he's brought back in The stolen Earth/Journey's End.

      Does that work? I'm pretty confused and can't really double-check right now.

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    • I think it more or less would, although Emperor of the Daleks! does seem to have been written with the intent that it would retcon the earlier story, what with its Emperor (who is clearly not Davros, and is most probably the Dalek Prime) being drawn to look exactly like the Nemesis one. That's not necessarily an intent we have to listen to, though. I see no problem with merging Emperor Dalek (Nemesis of the Daleks) itself into Davros while excising the content based on Emperor of the Daleks! and funneling it into Dalek Prime.

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    • I believe I agree, although I would need to re-read, re-watch, and re-listen to the relevant stories before I can say for sure. I agree that the Emperor!-Emperor being drawn with the same design as the Nemesis-Emperor is an attempt at a recton. It's annoying.

      But as you said, I think it could work and make sense this way. I'm curious to see how it flows with Terror Firma leading into Nemesis for Davros!

      I think I've always assumed that the Doctor stopped mid-sentence when he said "Ah... I see that you have..." in Nemesis. Like, I maybe thought he would have said "I see that you have forgotten Davros" or something like that. But everything makes more sense with Scrooge MacDuck's latest clarification.

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    • Heyheyeheyhey! Hold the presses!

      I can't link to it just yet, because the same post also contains information about unreleased material for <spoiler>, but Nicholas Briggs has just confirmed on Twitter that the recurring Big Finish "Genocide Machine Emperor" was always thought of as one and the same as the Golden Emperor/Dalek Prime/what-have-you, as per the old covers.

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    • I just re-read Emperor of the Daleks! and Nemesis of the Daleks. I did not notice any problems with the timeline-order i proposed in my second to last post, save for one. In his final scene in Emperor, the seventh Doctor says that he hopes that Davros died during the events of Remembrance in 1963. That's odd, since he believed that Davros was alive and well as the emperor in Nemesis. Other than that, I think this order is the "correct" one.

      Now, I haven't listened to Daleks Among Us in forever, but this got me thinking that maybe that could go after the Davros-emperor is blown up on the death-wheel in Nemesis. It would be:

      Remembrance of the Daleks -> Terror Firma -> Nemesis of the Daleks -> Daleks Among Us

      Do we know if the emperor from Defender of the Daleks is indeed Dalek Prime, or is that just based on his casing? What do we know about that guy? And is the story set during the Last Great Time War?

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    • The Doctor hoping Davros died at the Shoreditch Incident seems like one of the things that make more sense if you assume that the Doctor was mistaken in Nemesis of the Daleks, that the Nemesis Emperor was in fact the Dalek Prime unbeknownst to him, and that he realised his mistake off-screen. But that's all rather speculative. The Doctor lies, time is rewritten, yadayada — hell, the Doctor might even be using a metaphorical sense of "dying", treating Davros's apparent degeneration into an amnesiac Emperor as seen in Nemesis of the Dales as the Kaled scientist having functionally died. I think we're good with saying it's Davros in Nemesis, but the Dalek Prime in Emperor!.

      As concerns the Emperor in Defender of the Daleks, he is pretty explicitly the Golden Emperor, or at the very least an Emperor from before the Time War: upon meeting him, the Tenth Doctor explicitly goes "The Emperor of the Daleks!" (emphasis mine) and complains that of all the individuals a time paradox could resurrect, it had to be this guy. (Though that's not strictly part of the narrative, the "character profile" on the first page of the comic book also identifies the Emperor as a returning enemy who has squared off with the Doctor before.) With him looking the way he does, I think it's beyond any reasonable doubt the Golden Emperor/Dalek Prime.

      The story is not set during the Last Great Time War — it is set in the "present" of the Tenth Doctor era, but in temporally-anomalous circumstances whose nature has yet to be elaborated upon. The Doctor identifies the existence of the Prime's entire Empire (which includes a reconstructed Dalek City identical to the one in Series 9) as "a paradox", and the Daleks, to his surprise and confusion, don't remember ever having fought in a Time War against the Time Lords, instead believing themselves to have been at war with the Hond for ages.

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    • Oh dear, the new evidence for area we hadn't even conidered doesn't stop coming in, does it? I am told (though I haven't listened to it yet) that AUDIO: Restoration of the Daleks gives a more definitive origin story to the Parting of the Way Dalek Emperor than he had thus far gotten, which depicts his rise to power in the form seen in TV: The Parting of the Ways as having consisted of the Dalek Time Strategist resurrecting "the Emperor of the Daleks", the original, through a complex temporal process.

      …So what I'm saying is, unless I have been tragically misinformed, we might want to merge Dalek Emperor (The Parting of the Ways) into the united Dalek Prime page, too!

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    • Aah, interesting. Assuming that it was in fact the Dalek Prime who was the emperor in Emperor of the Daleks!, then that would be the death he'll be resurrected from in Restoration of the Daleks, right? Have we seen him dying in any other story? (Apparently he survived Evil of the Daleks).

      His appearance in War of the Daleks still doesn't fit with anything.

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    • Well, no, presumably all he needs to have been killed by, to have to be resurrected now, is the Valeyard when he annihilated all Daleks save for the Time Strategist Daleks in AUDIO: The War Valeyard. I say we still go with his Emperor! death not being definitive/being a matter of different accounts.

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    • I've listened to Restoration of the Daleks now, it's definitely saying the Parting of the Ways Emperor is the Emperor, the original article — resurrected. Davros (or, rather, a duplicate with memories from a bunch of timelines, but that's not important) readily recognises him as his old rival for position of progenitor of the Daleks: these are his words moments after hearing the Emperor's broadcast announcing his resurrection to the world:

      Not that creature! That obscenity! They are not his children!!…
      (…)Davros
      And here he is describing the Emperor to Bliss:
      The Emperor usurped my power… he's the reason my children abandoned me! Centuries of Dalek against Dalek! A waste of potential.Also Davros
      I think we can safely say that's the Dalek Prime against whom Davros fought the Imperial-Renegade Dalek Civil War, and who had these debates with him about who the true Creator of the Daleks was in War of the Daleks, right there.

      Incidentally, it's very meta and would be nigh-impossible to cover on the Wiki in its intended way, but I think the following insane boast by the remembering-all-realities-at-once Davros, delivered to the Emperor, is in fact a reference to the retcons about whether the Emperor in Nemesis was Davros or the Prime:

      I remember all realities! In some of them, you… and I… (cackle)… are the same! Nyahahahahahah!Still Davros
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