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  • CzechOut
    CzechOut closed this thread because:
    We're a Doctor Who wiki, not a Blakes 7 one. There's already a whole wiki dedicated to B7, just waiting for your input!
    07:16, January 26, 2017

    I feel that the appearance of Carnell in Corpse Maker and Kaldor City, with a backstory identical to that of Carnell from Blake's 7, is sufficient for us to say B7 is in the DWU.

    • Carnell is a psychostrategist in the B7 episode Weapon. At the end of that episode, he made a great failure.
    • Carnell is an exiled psychostrategist in Corpse Maker and Kaldor City, and is established as only having failed once. He was on the run for two years before settling down in Kaldor City.

    And to top it off, Scott Fredericks, who played him in B7, voices the character in Kaldor City. In my opinion, it seems extremely unlikely that the intent here was that the Carnell in Kaldor City isn't the B7 one. They have the same name, same profession, same backstory, same actor. To me, this is saying B7 is in the DWU, and the Federation has appeared several times. And that's not to mention the implication that Kaston Iago is an alias of Kerr Avon.

    Any thoughts? Comments?

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    • Okay, I usually agree with most of this inclusion stuff but... I don't think I can here.

      Yes Terry Nation did want to have the Daleks crossover in to the series, but it never happened.

      We look at the B7 character in KC the same way we look at Death's Head in the SD comic.

      Cover as much that happened in the DWU.

      I don't think this was Terry Nation's intention either, I recall reading him saying that he wanted the Daleks to appear to cross over into both universes.

      I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with this one mate.

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    • The Kaldor City website outright states it's in the universe that Weapon is from:

      [1]

      "The Kaldor City audios are an ultraviolent tale of power, sex and intrigue set in the universe of Chris Boucher's Doctor Who: The Robots of Death, Blake's 7: Weapon and Doctor Who spinoff novel Corpse Marker."
      
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    • Pluto2 wrote: The Kaldor City website outright states it's in the universe that Weapon is from:

      [1]

      "The Kaldor City audios are an ultraviolent tale of power, sex and intrigue set in the universe of Chris Boucher's Doctor Who: The Robots of Death, Blake's 7: Weapon and Doctor Who spinoff novel Corpse Marker."
      

      That doesn't mean B7 is set in thr DWU though.

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    • DENCH-and-PALMER wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote: The Kaldor City website outright states it's in the universe that Weapon is from:

      [1]

      "The Kaldor City audios are an ultraviolent tale of power, sex and intrigue set in the universe of Chris Boucher's Doctor Who: The Robots of Death, Blake's 7: Weapon and Doctor Who spinoff novel Corpse Marker."
      

      That doesn't mean B7 is set in thr DWU though.

      ...Except they're saying Weapon is set in the DWU. At the very least, we should cover Weapon.

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    • Pluto2 wrote:

      DENCH-and-PALMER wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote: The Kaldor City website outright states it's in the universe that Weapon is from:

      [1]

      "The Kaldor City audios are an ultraviolent tale of power, sex and intrigue set in the universe of Chris Boucher's Doctor Who: The Robots of Death, Blake's 7: Weapon and Doctor Who spinoff novel Corpse Marker."
      

      That doesn't mean B7 is set in thr DWU though.

      ...Except they're saying Weapon is set in the DWU. At the very least, we should cover Weapon.

      I suppose, however it'd seem, some what... strange.

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    • DENCH-and-PALMER wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote:

      DENCH-and-PALMER wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote: The Kaldor City website outright states it's in the universe that Weapon is from:

      [1]

      "The Kaldor City audios are an ultraviolent tale of power, sex and intrigue set in the universe of Chris Boucher's Doctor Who: The Robots of Death, Blake's 7: Weapon and Doctor Who spinoff novel Corpse Marker."
      

      That doesn't mean B7 is set in thr DWU though.

      ...Except they're saying Weapon is set in the DWU. At the very least, we should cover Weapon.

      I suppose, however it'd seem, some what... strange.

      Hence why I feel it might be better to include all of Blake's 7.

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    • Pluto2 wrote:

      DENCH-and-PALMER wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote:

      DENCH-and-PALMER wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote: The Kaldor City website outright states it's in the universe that Weapon is from:

      [1]

      "The Kaldor City audios are an ultraviolent tale of power, sex and intrigue set in the universe of Chris Boucher's Doctor Who: The Robots of Death, Blake's 7: Weapon and Doctor Who spinoff novel Corpse Marker."
      

      That doesn't mean B7 is set in thr DWU though.

      ...Except they're saying Weapon is set in the DWU. At the very least, we should cover Weapon.

      I suppose, however it'd seem, some what... strange.

      Hence why I feel it might be better to include all of Blake's 7.

      I can understand the one episode at the very least.

      But not the whole lot, how would we explain that to casual readers.

      I'm opposed adding the whole series, and it should be noted the same way as Death's Head.

      However, I'm not apposed the one episode Weapon.

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    • There's another thing:

      Kaston Iago is heavily implied to be Kerr Avon. His backstory as given in Metafiction is basically a summary of Blake's 7.

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    • Did they have the license to use Kerr Avon?

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    • Allowing B7 as valid would bring us dangerously close to the Tommy Westphall Universe theory.

      The fact that a B7 character later appeared in the DWU does not automatically place B7 in the DWU. (Neither does Assimilation² bring the rest of Star Trek into the DWU, for that matter.)

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    • We are not going to cover all of Blake's 7. B7 has its own wiki. If you want to remark that a certain character originated elsewhere, or explain that part of their backstory if relevant, you can link to that wiki in a BTS section.

      Remember, we didn't decide in 2013 to cover every single Big Finish audio series just because of The Worlds of Big Finish. Let's stick to the Doctor Who universe, please.

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    • SeaniesBeanies wrote: Did they have the license to use Kerr Avon?

      They don't outright call him Kerr Avon, but his backstory given in Metafiction is identical to what he did in B7. In fact, it's stated he killed the Butcher of Zircaster - a name given in an audio story to Travis, a character killed by Avon in B7. So they're in a roundabout way equating Iago with Avon without outright saying the words "Kerr Avon". It's clear who they are talking about.

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    • SOTO wrote: We are not going to cover all of Blake's 7. B7 has its own wiki. If you want to remark that a certain character originated elsewhere, or explain that part of their backstory if relevant, you can link to that wiki in a BTS section.

      Remember, we didn't decide in 2013 to cover every single Big Finish audio series just because of The Worlds of Big Finish. Let's stick to the Doctor Who universe, please.

      At the very least, we should cover the episode Weapon, which has been established by Kaldor City to be in the DWU.

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    • Pluto2 wrote:

      SOTO wrote: We are not going to cover all of Blake's 7. B7 has its own wiki. If you want to remark that a certain character originated elsewhere, or explain that part of their backstory if relevant, you can link to that wiki in a BTS section.

      Remember, we didn't decide in 2013 to cover every single Big Finish audio series just because of The Worlds of Big Finish. Let's stick to the Doctor Who universe, please.

      At the very least, we should cover the episode Weapon, which has been established by Kaldor City to be in the DWU.

      That's exactly our problem. Can a later work validate an earlier, previously unconnected, work?

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    • I don't think the makers of Kaldor City are in a position to make Kaldor City pass rule 4. It might have been their intent to derive from that episode, but they cannot speak for any authorial intent on part of the BBC that it was intended to be set in the DWU.

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    • The thing is, Kaldor City was advertised as being a spinoff of both Doctor Who and Blake's 7. The fact is that Kaston Iago's backstory given in Metafiction is practically identical to the events experienced by Kerr Avon in Blake's 7. It's even stated that Iago killed the Butcher of Zircaster, which is the name given in the charity audio The Mark of Kane to the character Travis, who was a character killed by Avon in the TV series. They're equating Iago with Avon in a roundabout way, and a character from an episode of Blake's 7 is a main character in both Corpse Maker and Kaldor City.

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    • And it's not like this is one author equating the two as being in the same universe. Chris Boucher was a script editor for Blake's 7 - part of the production team.

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    • Pluto2 wrote:

      The thing is, Kaldor City was advertised as being a spinoff of both Doctor Who and Blake's 7.

      In other words, it was advertised as a crossover. But does that make it a crossover?

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    • Bwburke94 wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote:

      The thing is, Kaldor City was advertised as being a spinoff of both Doctor Who and Blake's 7.

      In other words, it was advertised as a crossover. But does that make it a crossover?

      Well, considering the script editor of Blake's 7 was part of the production team that made Kaldor City...yeah.

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    • So it's a crossover, then. And I assume that places B7 proper outside the DWU, but there's no clear way to handle this sort of situation.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote: So it's a crossover, then. And I assume that places B7 proper outside the DWU, but there's no clear way to handle this sort of situation.

      In this case, however, the advertising is treating B7 and Doctor Who as being in the same universe.

      The website says:

      "The Kaldor City audios are an ultraviolent tale of power, sex and intrigue set in the universe of Chris Boucher's Doctor Who: The Robots of Death, Blake's 7: Weapon and Doctor Who spinoff novel Corpse Marker."
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    • But that doesn't necessarily mean they are in the same universe, from the perspective of this wiki.

      Is there any evidence in the original B7 television programme that it is set in the DWU?

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    • Bwburke94 wrote: But that doesn't necessarily mean they are in the same universe, from the perspective of this wiki.

      Is there any evidence in the original B7 television programme that it is set in the DWU?

      Well, they were going to have the Daleks as villains at one point, but it fell through.

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    • AeD

      So what you're saying, then, is that no, there is no evidence in the original television programme that it is set in the DWU.

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    • AeD wrote: So what you're saying, then, is that no, there is no evidence in the original television programme that it is set in the DWU.

      Erm, if they intended to include the Daleks, they certainly considered it part of the DWU, don't you think?

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    • AeD

      "Intended to" is not the same as "actually did."

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    • This is where Rule 4 weirdness comes in. It was intended to eventually take place in the DWU.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote: This is where Rule 4 weirdness comes in. It was intended to eventually take place in the DWU.

      Does this mean it passes or not? The script editor himself says in promotional material that B7 is set in the DWU in that Kaldor City is set in the universe of Doctor Who and Blake's 7.

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    • Is Rule 4 even intended to apply here?

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    • AeD

      I just want something clarified: Is the intended goal of this thread to declare all of Blake's 7 a valid source, and thus for this wiki to cover Blake's 7 exactly like it does Torchwood, K-9 & Company, etcetera? Is the goal for this wiki to have a page about the Blake's 7 episode Rumours of Death?

      Because that's ridiculous.

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    • AeD

      Welcome to the Tommy Westphall Wikia.

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    • AeD wrote: Welcome to the Tommy Westphall Wikia.

      It's not like every series ever should be covered. It's that Kaldor City rather firmly links B7 with Doctor Who.

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    • Pluto2 wrote: It's not like every series ever should be covered. It's that Kaldor City rather firmly links B7 with Doctor Who.

      It'd seem a bit silly to cover Blake's 7, whilst we're at it we might as well cover EastEnders, Call the Midwife and the complete Marvel multi-verse.

      In other words, it's a crossover, not a spin-off. Covering it would lead in to uncharted territory.

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    • AeD wrote: Welcome to the Tommy Westphall Wikia.

      That is exactly the point I've been trying to make. If we allow B7, it leads into a rather ridiculous chain where we'd eventually be covering every single English-language fictional work, and a few non-English-language works as well.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote:

      AeD wrote: Welcome to the Tommy Westphall Wikia.

      That is exactly the point I've been trying to make. If we allow B7, it leads into a rather ridiculous chain where we'd eventually be covering every single English-language fictional work, and a few non-English-language works as well.

      This isn't going to be the Tommy Westphall Wikia. If the script editor says, point blank, that Kaldor City is set in the universe (not universes, plural) of Blake's 7 and Doctor Who, that's stating Blake's 7 is in the DWU. The fact is, if they planned to use the Daleks in the series, that's a pretty good indicator they felt the two series were in the same universe.

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    • AeD

      Pluto2 wrote:

      AeD wrote: Welcome to the Tommy Westphall Wikia.

      It's not like every series ever should be covered. It's that Kaldor City rather firmly links B7 with Doctor Who.

      Which, to me, is a problem you solve by linking the handful of relevant articles to the Blake's 7 Wiki for more information.

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    •   Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Cross... crossover. It's a mere crossover not a part of the DWU.

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    • Look, it doesn't matter what they wanted to do. If the crossover did not happen, we can't (and most likely, won't) cover it, except on "behind the scenes". Yes, they might have wanted Daleks and the Fourth Doctor on Blake's 7, but the plain truth is: it did not happen. We should not take this "they wanted X thing to happen" as arguments for inclusion any more than deleted scenes of TV episodes or any other unreleased story.

      The only thing which seems to "connect" the DWU and B7U is Carnell. However, quoting User:SOTO on Thread:207769, "Usually, when an outside character is used in a work of Doctor Who, we only cover the character's DWU appearances, and give information outside of that only in the 'behind the scenes' and 'external links' sections.". If there are no other, stronger, "connections" between B7 and DWU, I'd say we should just cover Carnell the way we do, and add a link to the characters page at Blake's 7 wiki.

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    • OncomingStorm12th wrote: Look, it doesn't matter what they wanted to do. If the crossover did not happen, we can't (and most likely, won't) cover it, except on "behind the scenes". Yes, they might have wanted Daleks and the Fourth Doctor on Blake's 7, but the plain truth is: it did not happen. We should not take this "they wanted X thing to happen" as arguments for inclusion any more than deleted scenes of TV episodes or any other unreleased story.

      The only thing which seems to "connect" the DWU and B7U is Carnell. However, quoting User:SOTO on Thread:207769, "Usually, when an outside character is used in a work of Doctor Who, we only cover the character's DWU appearances, and give information outside of that only in the 'behind the scenes' and 'external links' sections.". If there are no other, stronger, "connections" between B7 and DWU, I'd say we should just cover Carnell the way we do, and add a link to the characters page at Blake's 7 wiki.

      Agreed

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    • OncomingStorm12th wrote: Look, it doesn't matter what they wanted to do. If the crossover did not happen, we can't (and most likely, won't) cover it, except on "behind the scenes". Yes, they might have wanted Daleks and the Fourth Doctor on Blake's 7, but the plain truth is: it did not happen. We should not take this "they wanted X thing to happen" as arguments for inclusion any more than deleted scenes of TV episodes or any other unreleased story.

      The only thing which seems to "connect" the DWU and B7U is Carnell. However, quoting User:SOTO on Thread:207769, "Usually, when an outside character is used in a work of Doctor Who, we only cover the character's DWU appearances, and give information outside of that only in the 'behind the scenes' and 'external links' sections.". If there are no other, stronger, "connections" between B7 and DWU, I'd say we should just cover Carnell the way we do, and add a link to the characters page at Blake's 7 wiki.

      It's not just Carnell.

      It's that in material promoting Kaldor City, they basically said Blake's 7 and Doctor Who are in the same universe. Who created Kaldor City? Chris Boucher. Who was script editor of Blake's 7? Chris Boucher.

      Not only that, but the same person played Carnell in Blake's 7 and in Kaldor City. Paul Darrow plays Avon and "Iago", and in Kaldor City, "Iago" is given a backstory identical to that of Kerr Avon. It's not just that Carnell's there. It's that a main character from Blake's 7 is very heavily implied to be a main character in Kaldor City. With all of this, I don't think there's reason to doubt that Blake's 7 is in the DWU.

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    • It's that in material promoting Kaldor City, they basically said Blake's 7 and Doctor Who are in the same universe. Who created Kaldor City? Chris Boucher. Who was script editor of Blake's 7? Chris Boucher.

      Well, there is quite a difference between basically saying something and actually saying that thing. Also, for the record, calling something a "spin off" of something, has not been enough evidence in the past, 'cause in previous threads (not sure which) it was agreed that sometimes something is called a "spin off" of DW purely for marketing (as is the case of Vienna).

      Not only that, but the same person played Carnell in Blake's 7 and in Kaldor City. Paul Darrow plays Avon and "Iago", and in Kaldor City, "Iago" is given a backstory identical to that of Kerr Avon. It's not just that Carnell's there. It's that a main character from Blake's 7 is very heavily implied to be a main character in Kaldor City. With all of this, I don't think there's reason to doubt that Blake's 7 is in the DWU.

      The fact that they share an actor means nothing. Maxil, Tepesh and the Sixth Doctor are all played by Colin Baker. Still, the fact they're played by the same actor is no evidence these three characters are the same (and, indeed, they aren't)

      "a main character from Blake's 7 is very heavily implied to be a main character in Kaldor City". Well, if it's only "heavily implied to be", saying that he is the same character would be speculating, which is not allowed on in-universe articles.

      "Who created Kaldor City? Chris Boucher. Who was script editor of Blake's 7? Chris Boucher.". Who created the BBC version of Sherlock? Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss. Both of them have also written for Doctor Who multiple times. This is no more proof that Sherlock is part of the DWU. Similarly, sharing crew is also no proof that Blake's 7 would be.

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    • How was B7 advertised? If there were no connections to the DWU during its run, we have nothing to talk about.

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    • AeD

      RTD notably wanted to cross over with Enterprise, which had exactly the same effect on anything: Bupkis.

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    • I'm in the boat to keep Blake's 7 separate from the wiki. The way I see it is the same as Assimilation², where characters from another franchise appear, yet we do not include that whole universe within our scope. Similarly we could say that the whole Transformers universe is part of our main Doctor Who universe, just because Death's Head has appeared in a few comics back in the 90s.

      Sometimes with our inclusions we can go too far, and I believe that Blake's 7 is sadly one such inclusion.

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    • Revanvolatrelundar wrote: I'm in the boat to keep Blake's 7 separate from the wiki. The way I see it is the same as Assimilation², where characters from another franchise appear, yet we do not include that whole universe within our scope. Similarly we could say that the whole Transformers universe is part of our main Doctor Who universe, just because Death's Head has appeared in a few comics back in the 90s.

      Sometimes with our inclusions we can go too far, and I believe that Blake's 7 is sadly one such inclusion.

      But Assimilation^2 was outright separate universes colliding. They made it clear Star Trek and Doctor Who were separate universes, ones that simply collided at one point and then split back off.

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    • Pluto2 wrote:

      Revanvolatrelundar wrote: I'm in the boat to keep Blake's 7 separate from the wiki. The way I see it is the same as Assimilation², where characters from another franchise appear, yet we do not include that whole universe within our scope. Similarly we could say that the whole Transformers universe is part of our main Doctor Who universe, just because Death's Head has appeared in a few comics back in the 90s.

      Sometimes with our inclusions we can go too far, and I believe that Blake's 7 is sadly one such inclusion.

      But Assimilation^2 was outright separate universes colliding. They made it clear Star Trek and Doctor Who were separate universes, ones that simply collided at one point and then split back off.

      That still doesn't avoid the appearance of Death's Head in Doctor Who. The Coming of the Terraphiles has characters from Michael Moorcocks novels in it, but we don't include the entire sum of his work on the wiki either. Carnell's appearance in Doctor Who is a nice easter egg, but that's about all.

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    • I'd also like to point out that some of the Virgin stories with Benny suggest Blake's 7 are simultaneously a TV series and real. So...it's weird.

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    • Pluto2 wrote: I'd also like to point out that some of the Virgin stories with Benny suggest Blake's 7 are simultaneously a TV series and real. So...it's weird.

      The DWU in general can be called "weird".

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    • AeD

      I mean, Doctor Who has occasionally pointed out that Doctor Who itself is a TV show, too.

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    • Pluto2 wrote: I'd also like to point out that some of the Virgin stories with Benny suggest Blake's 7 are simultaneously a TV series and real. So...it's weird.

      I've done a quick search on the Discontinuity Guide website, and it seems that the only references to Blake's 7 are in Cold Fusion, where Tegan says she has seen transmats on the TV show before; and a short story in The Dead Men Diaries where one character like Blake's 7 and names his cat after Servalan.

      The only same universe reference is a weak one at best, where in Prisoner of the Daleks a character is said to be from Gauda Prime, which shares a name with a planet in Blake's 7. There are many stories that use the names of planets from other series, so giving taking this reference as explicit proof that Blake's 7 and Doctor Who share the same universe is a bit far fetched.

      From these mentions it lends credence to what I already thought; that Blake's 7 is just a TV show in Doctor Who, and in the Kaldor City stories a character from Blake's 7 makes a licensed appearance.

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    • As has been pointed out in another thread, some of the inclusion debates that have been offered in the last month or so feel as if they have been done in bad faith. And they certainly have increased the work load of a volunteer administrative staff.

      So while I normally try to give a rationale, I've got to crack on here. It is not a reasonable or common interpretation of Blakes 7 to believe that it is a part of the DWU.

      The majority of our readers are here -- let's face it -- because of the 2005 series. Which can't even be called "the new series" anymore. They are simply not going to buy this assertion.

      If you wish to contribute around Blakes 7, please proceed to w:c:blakes7.

      As for the one alleged crossover character of Carnell, SOTO has proposed a perfectly workable notion:

      If you want to remark that a certain character originated elsewhere, or explain that part of their backstory if relevant, you can link to [the B7] wiki in a BTS section.

      Additionally, we will not cover the B7 episode Warhead in any way.

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