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  • Revanvolatrelundar
    Revanvolatrelundar closed this thread because:
    Discussion reached a conclusion. The Unbound stories are now within what we cover.
    21:23, January 23, 2017

    We've never had a formal discussion about Doctor Who Unbound releases' validity as a whole. Given that the Warner incarnation has already been deemed valid but from a different universe, it's not part of this discussion.

    I have a slightly different proposal:

    He Jests at Scars..., Sustainable Energy/Full Fathom Five, Auld Mortality/The Innocents/A Storm of Angels, Exile, and Deadline are each set in alternate universes. They're not invalid, they are treated the same as the Unbound stories featuring David Warner. The whole point of Doctor Who Unbound is what-ifs, similar to DC's Elseworlds. It's not this didn't happen in any universe. It's that the installments depict various parallel universes detached from N-Space, a la The Unbound Universe says for Sympathy for the Devil/Masters of War.

    Essentially, this is just one change: The whole of Doctor Who Unbound would be considered alternate universes, rather than wholly invalid.

    Any thoughts on this proposal?

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    • In fact - BF themselves referred to the series as a whole as alternative realities:

      [1]

      "Doctor Who - Unbound poses the question: What if...?

      A fascinating view of how the series and the character of the Doctor might have developed in eight different scenarios.

      Featuring six different actors in the central role of the Doctor including Sir Derek Jacobi and David Warner, Doctor Who Unbound offers us a tantalising glimpse of alternative realities!"

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    • Well, if you look at it this way- the timelines up until those stories are not stated to differ from the established timeline in the Whoniverse. The Warner Doctor is an alternate Third Doctor (for example), but he was still Hartnell and Troughton and did all of the stuff that they did. Nothing suggests otherwise.

      The story featuring the Doctor and Susan (who never left Gallifrey)... well their lives were exactly the same up until the moment they decided to not leave rather than leave... if you see my thought process.

      Now, this differs from Dr. Who from the two movies as Dr. Who shares no relation to the Doctor, it does not come under the franchise of Doctor Who, whereas the others do (via Big Finish). Is it fair to raise at least two main criteria: 1. Must be the same timeline as the original Doctor but with a deviation at some point. 2. Must be incorporated into the main franchise umbrella of Doctor Who.

      For me, the different versions of the Ninth Doctor shown in The Tomorrow Windows are all official alternate versions because up until the War Doctor's regeneration, they were all essentially the same men... just parallel to one-another in space-time. Whereas, the Mark Gatiss version of the Doctor in The Web of Caves can only be invalid because it breaks at least the first criterium (as well as other validity rules on the Wiki). At no point are we told his relation to the main Doctor.

      Just some ideas to throw into the pot. I'd like to think that I'm just playing devil's advocate and stoking the fires a little for this conversation but this is genuinely how I see alternate Doctors. The Atkinson Ninth Doctor (and all those who succeed him) break at least one of the criteria. Their backstories are also not specified, whereas, as you say, Big Finish state that their Unbound range adds a small change to the Doctor's original (unaltered) timeline and sees where it leads.

      Anyway, I'm interested to see where this goes.

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    • So you're saying that alternate Doctors currently deemed invalid could be deemed valid if they have an established "point of divergence" in which they become distinguishable from N-Space's Doctor?

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    • The whole valid/invalid thing seems to tangle a lot of people up, myself included. I'd like to state, for the sake of this particular thread only, that where Doctors from the Unbound Series are concerned, I am of the opinion that they're valid due to the simple reason that there is, as you phrased it, a "point of divergence". It goes hand-in-hand with the fourth rule: is it intended to be set in the DWU? Or in this case- a split DWU?

      Where I'm concerned, that has to be the basic foundation for whether a Doctor is a valid alternate Doctor. Atkinson's Ninth Doctor does not follow this criteria, as there is no available backstory to his Doctor, nor is this sketch intended to be set in the DWU. We are not given any indication as to whether any of the previous adventures took place and whether they unfolded with the same outcomes. Big Finish is very clear that their alternate Doctors' timestreams only change during the story.

      Admins will also state that each case is unique. I feel it right to group the Unbound Doctors, as they are a series of Doctors with the same aim/cause. However, any other Doctor stated, such as the Infinity Doctors Doctor, must be discussed individually. I can't make a sweeping statement. But I do think that the idea of divergency is key when discussing the four important rules to validity regarding Doctors and characters.

      That's all I have to say on this matter. :)

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    • I suppose you could edit the fourth rule for alternate Doctors/characters: "Was the story/Doctor/character intended to be set in a split-DWU?"

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    • 1 Only stories count.
      2 A story that isn't commercially licensed by all of the relevant copyright holders doesn't count.
      3 A story must be officially released to be valid.
      4 If a story was intended to be set outside the DWU, then it's probably not allowed. But a community discussion will likely be needed to make a final determination.
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    • It passes 1, it passes 2, it passes 3, BF says it's a parallel universe so it passes 4.

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    • We weren't doubting that. :) The conversation deviated to all alternate Doctors. My suggestion was to take the admin route and to treat every alternate Doctor with his/her own individual discussion.

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    • Would Scream of the Shalka be affected by this?

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    • Pluto2 wrote: Would Scream of the Shalka be affected by this?

      Probably not but it was intended to be valid and no comment has ever stated otherwise other than the fact they later cast Eccleston.

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    • Personally, I am in agreement with this. Back in the day I actually opposed the bid to invalidate the Unbounds. I think that articles relating to the story should have an alternate universe section for the Unbound stuff (like "The Master" does now with the Warner stories).

      Shalka is more of a grey area though, and to be honest I'm on the side of keeping it invalid. It has virtually no link to any other story anyway, unlike the Unbounds.

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    • Revanvolatrelundar wrote: Personally, I am in agreement with this. Back in the day I actually opposed the bid to invalidate the Unbounds. I think that articles relating to the story should have an alternate universe section for the Unbound stuff (like "The Master" does now with the Warner stories).

      Shalka is more of a grey area though, and to be honest I'm on the side of keeping it invalid. It has virtually no link to any other story anyway, unlike the Unbounds.

      They do however have a Master played by Derek Jacobi. It'd be speculation to say they were the same incarnation, it would also be speculation to say it's not the alternate version of Yana (remember they are from about the same point) but it'd also be speculation to say that they weren't.

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    • So, it looks liks these pass the four little rules (though for Rule 4, they are all parallel universes, rather than the main one), right? The intent here was parallel universe Doctors.

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    • Doctor Who Unbound was about hypotheticals. Asking, "What if?" What if this had happened? What if this was like that? It was not suggesting that these were actual alternate universes that we're exploring. And let's not forget Deadline, of course.

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    • Pluto2 wrote: In fact - BF themselves referred to the series as a whole as alternative realities

      Alternative reality parallel universe

      Yes, there are alternative realities. Each "what if?" question is explored in a hypothetical reality, which is alternative to how things really played out.

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    • SOTO wrote: Doctor Who Unbound was about hypotheticals. Asking, "What if?" What if this had happened? What if this was like that? It was not suggesting that these were actual alternate universes that we're exploring. And let's not forget Deadline, of course.

      Rule 4 can go either way as applied to "what if" cases - this whole thing started when the Sympathy for the Devil Doctor met a mainstream DWU character.

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    • Yes, and that particular universe is now considered DWU. That is not precedent to just open the floodgates and let anything and everything else in. To me, and to most everyone else before this discussion, the very fact that these are all based on "what if?" means that they were absolutely intended to be set outside the DWU.

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    • In fact, just that is written in the text of T:VALID itself:

      Class of story
      Non-parodic "what if?" stories
      Explanation
      Some completely serious stories have been explicitly tagged by the publisher or author as being outside the DWU
      Examples
      Doctor Who Unbound
      Rule offended
      4
        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • SOTO wrote:

      Pluto2 wrote: In fact - BF themselves referred to the series as a whole as alternative realities

      Alternative reality parallel universe

      Yes, there are alternative realities. Each "what if?" question is explored in a hypothetical reality, which is alternative to how things really played out.

      Where is it stated reality ≠ universe?

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    • Just as a point of complication: although most of the Unbound stories can be conceived of as "alternative realities" for the character of the Doctor, in the style of Marvel's old What If? comic, Deadline is... an entirely different beast. It's an examination of creativity and mortality that uses Doctor Who as a springboard. It doesn't operate in terms of "universes" at all. Asking whether Deadline is part of the "Doctor Who universe" is like asking whether the play Shadowlands is part of the "Narnia universe", or whether A Midsummer Night's Dream is part of the "Pyramus and Thisbe universe". Deadline is just a play that takes the narrative and iconography of Doctor Who as part of its source material. It takes the "what if?" question in a completely different sense than the other "Unbound" stories do.

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    • Josiah Rowe wrote: Just as a point of complication: although most of the Unbound stories can be conceived of as "alternative realities" for the character of the Doctor, in the style of Marvel's old What If? comic, Deadline is... an entirely different beast. It's an examination of creativity and mortality that uses Doctor Who as a springboard. It doesn't operate in terms of "universes" at all. Asking whether Deadline is part of the "Doctor Who universe" is like asking whether the play Shadowlands is part of the "Narnia universe", or whether A Midsummer Night's Dream is part of the "Pyramus and Thisbe universe". Deadline is just a play that takes the narrative and iconography of Doctor Who as part of its source material. It takes the "what if?" question in a completely different sense than the other "Unbound" stories do.

      So we would consider Deadline separately from the others?

      Incidentally, are you in favor of the proposal outlined in the first post?

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    • Honestly, I'm not sure. (Which is why I didn't comment directly on the proposal.)

      As a matter of narrative logic, some of the "Unbound" stories seem to act like What If? stories — that is, taking the narrative of the Doctor's life to a certain point, and then turning right instead of turning left. But others are a bit less literal. Full Fathom Five isn't based on the question of "what if this had happened instead of that?" but on "what if the Doctor had a different moral code?" And Exile is largely a comedy. I'm not sure whether treating those stories as "alternate timelines" akin to Turn Left or Silurian Earth is a good idea, or whether it's entirely supported by the stories themselves or Big Finish's statements of intention.

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    • What the problem with having exsile as there's lots of comedy episodes like the one doctor and robots of sherwood. Plus the comic the girl who loved doctor who fetters a alternative universe where the doctor who tv show exist. Wats moor there is no difference between how big finish treats the valid unbouns and the ones currently invalid

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    • 31.84.150.30 wrote: What's the problem with having Exile, as there are lots of comedy stories like The One Doctor and Robot of Sherwood. Plus the comic story, The Girl Who Loved Doctor Who features an alternate universe where Doctor Who the TV series exists in the DWU. What's more there is no difference between how big finish treats the valid unbounds and the ones currently invalid.

      Just making it readable.

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    • 31.84.150.30 wrote: What the problem with having exsile as there's lots of comedy episodes like the one doctor and robots of sherwood. Plus the comic the girl who loved doctor who fetters a alternative universe where the doctor who tv show exist. Wats moor there is no difference between how big finish treats the valid unbouns and the ones currently invalid

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the problem is that the mainstream incarnations of the Doctor have interacted with those universes and other universes like Exile haven't.

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    • To summarize, here is my proposal:

      1. Auld Mortality/The Innocents/A Storm of Angels, Exile, and Sustainable Energy/Full Fathom Five will be considered valid sources, covering universes parallel to the one "our" Doctor calls home. Essentially, they get the same treatment as the David Warner ones.

      2. As Deadline, as stated above, is less a what-if and more an audio play with Doctor Who as a part of the story, it shall remain invalid.

      Any thoughts?

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    • I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, the David Warner stories are now, thanks to Bernice Summerfield, clearly an alternate universe. And conceptually, it's certainly possible to see and treat the others (excepting Deadline) as alternate universes.

      But as far as I know, we don't have any statements from Big Finish saying that the Unbound stories are alternate universes. Instead, we have (I believe) statements strongly indicating that the Unbound plays were intended to be outside of the Doctor Who universe.

      Now, there may be an argument to be made that every Doctor Who story, even those deliberately set outside of the Doctor's usual narrative universe, takes place in what we might call "the Doctor Who omniverse", as depicted in stories such as The Glorious Dead and Zagreus. But to me, that argument has a whiff of what they call "original research" on Wikipedia.

      In short, I think that somebody needs to find some quotes from Big Finish production personnel talking about the original Unbound stories before we can go any further with this discussion.

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    • Josiah Rowe wrote: I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, the David Warner stories are now, thanks to Bernice Summerfield, clearly an alternate universe. And conceptually, it's certainly possible to see and treat the others (excepting Deadline) as alternate universes.

      But as far as I know, we don't have any statements from Big Finish saying that the Unbound stories are alternate universes. Instead, we have (I believe) statements strongly indicating that the Unbound plays were intended to be outside of the Doctor Who universe.

      Now, there may be an argument to be made that every Doctor Who story, even those deliberately set outside of the Doctor's usual narrative universe, takes place in what we might call "the Doctor Who omniverse", as depicted in stories such as The Glorious Dead and Zagreus. But to me, that argument has a whiff of what they call "original research" on Wikipedia.

      In short, I think that somebody needs to find some quotes from Big Finish production personnel talking about the original Unbound stories before we can go any further with this discussion.

      BF advertises the series as "alternative realities" .

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    • Josiah Rowe wrote: But as far as I know, we don't have any statements from Big Finish saying that the Unbound stories are alternate universes. Instead, we have (I believe) statements strongly indicating that the Unbound plays were intended to be outside of the Doctor Who universe.

      https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/doctor-who-happy-birthday-david-tennant

      He then switched universes to play Colonel Brimmicombe-Wood against David Warner's Unbound Doctor in Doctor Who Unbound: Sympathy for the Devil; before switching again to appear as a Time Lord pursuing Arabella Weir's renegade incarnation in Doctor Who Unbound: Exile. Both of these alternative-reality treats can be enjoyed for the reduced price of £2.99…

      https://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/released/doctor-who---unbound

      Featuring six different actors in the central role of the Doctor including Sir Derek Jacobi and David Warner, Doctor Who Unbound offers us a tantalising glimpse of alternative realities!

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    • I suppose that settles that - Doctor Who Unbound stories should be considered parallel universes, based on the above, right?

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    • Yes from my point of view, but marking them as valid changes nothing. You still can't reference them in other articles based in the mainline DWU as they're completely separate entities. You wouldn't, for example, be able to reference David Warner's Doctor when writing about David Tennant's, as they are not narratively continuous with each other.

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    • SeaniesBeanies wrote: Yes from my point of view, but marking them as valid changes nothing. You still can't reference them in other articles based in the mainline DWU as they're completely separate entities. You wouldn't, for example, be able to reference David Warner's Doctor when writing about David Tennant's, as they are not narratively continuous with each other.

      You could, however, when would writing about an unbound Doctor ever need to occur in an article about the Tenth?

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    • 5.2.105.85 wrote: when would writing about an unbound Doctor ever need to occur in an article about the Tenth?

      I don't know, you'd be surprised about what some people write on the internet.

      Can you explain to me why you would be able to reference an alternate reality in the mainline one? Surely it would need to be in a BTS section at the bottom anyway?

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    • SeaniesBeanies wrote:

      5.2.105.85 wrote: when would writing about an unbound Doctor ever need to occur in an article about the Tenth?

      I don't know, you'd be surprised about what some people write on the internet.

      Can you explain to me why you would be able to reference an alternate reality in the mainline one? Surely it would need to be in a BTS section at the bottom anyway?

      Not usually, it's just under a section or header title "In another timeline"...

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    • Can I just add a very simple and obvious point? If you make a "What if?" story invalid for that reason alone... then what makes it different than The Story of Martha? That takes place during The Year That Never Was, which is a negated timeline- "What if the Master used humans from the future to slay the present day humans?"

      The only thing holding that together is the fact that the main character of the main story (Martha) originates from the original reality. But then again... so do the Unbound Doctors. They just haven't exited this deviation. What I'm saying is, that novel is from a negated timeline. I recall it ends just as Last of the Time Lords begins. If someone just had the book to go by, they wouldn't see the reality/timeline reverted back.

      In summary: we either have a very fine line between what is and isn't acceptable... or we're being biased towards New Series stuff. Thoughts?

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    • Thefartydoctor wrote: Can I just add a very simple and obvious point? If you make a "What if?" story invalid for that reason alone... then what makes it different than The Story of Martha? That takes place during The Year That Never Was, which is a negated timeline- "What if the Master used humans from the future to slay the present day humans?"

      The only thing holding that together is the fact that the main character of the main story (Martha) originates from the original reality. But then again... so do the Unbound Doctors. They just haven't exited this deviation. What I'm saying is, that novel is from a negated timeline. I recall it ends just as Last of the Time Lords begins. If someone just had the book to go by, they wouldn't see the reality/timeline reverted back.

      In summary: we either have a very fine line between what is and isn't acceptable... or we're being biased towards New Series stuff. Thoughts?

      Exactly!

      In the light of new information, I feel rather strongly that the Unbound series be treated as alternate universes, rather than invalid.

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    • Pluto2 wrote:

      Thefartydoctor wrote: Can I just add a very simple and obvious point? If you make a "What if?" story invalid for that reason alone... then what makes it different than The Story of Martha? That takes place during The Year That Never Was, which is a negated timeline- "What if the Master used humans from the future to slay the present day humans?"

      The only thing holding that together is the fact that the main character of the main story (Martha) originates from the original reality. But then again... so do the Unbound Doctors. They just haven't exited this deviation. What I'm saying is, that novel is from a negated timeline. I recall it ends just as Last of the Time Lords begins. If someone just had the book to go by, they wouldn't see the reality/timeline reverted back.

      In summary: we either have a very fine line between what is and isn't acceptable... or we're being biased towards New Series stuff. Thoughts?

      Exactly!

      In the light of new information, I feel rather strongly that the Unbound series be treated as alternate universes, rather than invalid.

      Agreed it seems clear that the intention was that they all have the same relationship with the main DWU meaning they all valid if not then they should be all invalid regardless of the status of any sequels

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    • It's also important to know the differences between alternate universes, alternate timelines and alternate realities. Here, we are talking about alternate/deviant timelines rather than universes, which works in our favour. For some, it's difficult to grasp that difference when you have Bernice Summerfield Unbound being set in "David Warner's Universe". But you have to understand, it's not a parallel universe, rather a deviant timeline, which evidently needs its own version of the DWU.

      If you've followed me so far, you'll see that it supports Unbound Adventures being valid. No nitpicking about "well this is one is like this whereas this one has Derek Jacobi in it". They were all made with the same intention in mind - to have a point of divergence from the original DWU timeline and to deviate into its own. This fact alone is why it has to be valid.

      On the other hand, if they rewrote the Warner stories and had his background and previous incarnations notably unlike our Hartnell/Troughton incarnations, that would be an alternate universe and would only become valid if it came into touch with the DWU. If tough to understand but eventually it clicks.

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    • At this point, surely it's clear the series passes rule 4, right...?

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    • Firstly, we have to accept that "DWU" represents more than just the Whoniverse. It represents a multiverse, including things such as Iris Wildthyme and so on. These Doctors, as we have concluded, share the same timeline as the original Doctor of the Whoniverse before their respective deviations. With that in mind, it does indeed pass rule 4.

      As the Doctor explains to Jackie "every single decision we make creates a parallel existence". One of those resulted in Pete's World and Donna's World. The Master does the same in the Series 3 finale. So yes, rule 4 is easily passed. :D

      Personally, I don't see why this series is under discussion haha. It doesn't go against any of the rules.

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    • Thefartydoctor wrote: Firstly, we have to accept that "DWU" represents more than just the Whoniverse. It represents a multiverse, including things such as Iris Wildthyme and so on. These Doctors, as we have concluded, share the same timeline as the original Doctor of the Whoniverse before their respective deviations. With that in mind, it does indeed pass rule 4.

      As the Doctor explains to Jackie "every single decision we make creates a parallel existence". One of those resulted in Pete's World and Donna's World. The Master does the same in the Series 3 finale. So yes, rule 4 is easily passed. :D

      Personally, I don't see why this series is under discussion haha. It doesn't go against any of the rules.

      Then can an admin close this thread? The series seems to rather conclusively pass the four little rules.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
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