FANDOM


  • SOTO
    SOTO closed this thread because:
    Closed in favour of inclusion. Consensus reached.
    18:54, August 10, 2017

    This is a BBC Radio 4 story written by Paul Magrs, which was broadcast as part of the Afternoon Drama and starred a noveliser from planet Verbatim Six. The novelisers were created by Magrs for The Companion Chronicles range (Huxley, one of them, appeared in Ringpullworld and Find and Replace). Verbatim Six is mentioned in this audio, and the plot is centered around the fact that Lawrence is a noveliser. In other aspects it has nothing to do with the DWU. What do you think about this?

      Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Seems legit.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Looks like exactly the same situation as Vince Cosmos: Glam Rock Detective to me: Paul Magrs writing DWU stories about his own characters. However, I'm not sure we can really evaluate this properly unless someone saved a copy of the audio before it went off iPlayer. What we could consider is the prose version published here — if anyone wants to buy it and post relevant excepts.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • I have a copy of the audio (found it long time ago somewhere).

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Fwhiffahder
      Fwhiffahder removed this reply because:
      .
      20:33, December 22, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • I've listened to it now. It's definitely the same Novelisers from Verbatim 6 as in Ringpullworld and Find and Replace. It talks about how it used to be that Novelisers would burn out the brains of their subjects if separated, which is how it is in the previous stories.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Same objection as for Vince Cosmos. Not all Slarvian stories are part of DWU just because they feature Slarvians. Was this story intended to be part of DWU?

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Same apology now as for Vince Cosmos. One needs an evidence to the contrary to exclude it from DWU. So same question. Did anyone try to check for such evidence?

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • So at the very least, Paul Magrs himself does not consider it part of his Doctor Who audio works: [1]

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Secondly (I wonder if anyone was going to mention this), Magrs writes here about his book The Diary of a Dr. Who Addict: "It's in the same world, and involving several of the same characters as my recent radio drama, 'Imaginary Boys.'"

      So a) you can't induct "Imaginary Boys" without "The Diary of a Dr. Who Addict", and b) the title suggests that it is set outside DWU, looking in.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • And it turns out Paul Magrs clearly separates his Doctor Who novels from non-Doctor Who ones. (This is in case somebody would claim that "Imaginary Boys" is not part of Doctor Who audios because it is not an audio book but a radio drama.) Here is the list of Magrs's Doctor Who novels, according to him [1]... and here is where "The Diary of a Dr. Who Addict" sits, among his young adult books [2]. Completely and utterly separated.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Re:All your website investigation: You'll note that he doesn't include his Iris Wildthyme stories in those categories either, yet she's still very much a part of this wiki, is she not?

      All that Magrs is saying in that classification is that those stories were produced with the Doctor Who license, which clearly isn't necessary to create Doctor Who universe material (per Bernice Summerfield, K9, Lethbridge-Stewart, etc etc etc). Are you arguing against this no-license policy?

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • NateBumber wrote: Re:All your website investigation: You'll note that he doesn't include his Iris Wildthyme stories in those categories either, yet she's still very much a part of this wiki, is she not?

      All that Magrs is saying in that classification is that those stories were produced with the Doctor Who license, which clearly isn't necessary to create Doctor Who universe material (per Bernice Summerfield, K9, Lethbridge-Stewart, etc etc etc). Are you arguing against this no-license policy?

      Checkmate!

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Out of all the recent inclusion debates, I believe this one has the most merit. It takes a recurring DWU species and tells a story with them. As for "Diary of a Dr Who Addict", if Rupert Von Thal from The Boy That Time Forgot (audio story) isn't the same character as Rupert Von Thal from the Brenda & Effie story The Bride That Time Forgot, why should this wiki care if Magrs reuses characters from Imaginary Boys in a different context? Just include it in the BHS.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • An example which is a bit closer to this wiki would be BBV's Zygon: When Being You Just Isn't Enough (home video) and Cyberon (home video). Both are inarguably in the same world - the world of Lauren Anderson - but only one uses concepts from the DWU and therefore only one is covered on this wiki.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • That's a good precedent.

      Can somebody please create a page Novelisor and put their list of appearances on that page? It's a bit hard to search for evidence with only a fragmentary information available on the Wiki. Also in Find and Replace the term "narrator" is used [1], and in Ringpullworld, the spelling is "novelisor" [2], not "noveliser". Could somebody comment on these differences to make sure that it is indeed a recurring species rather than two different species. And since I could not find the spelling "noveliser" in DW-related works, could somebody explain where it comes from?

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • I don't know why you feel the need to say "somebody". It's just us now. To answer your questions in reverse: "noveliser" probably came from our Cyrillic friend spelling it like he heard it, having just listened to both stories I can assure you that they both use the word "novelisor", I'm making the page now.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Point of order, guys. Please do not create pages about things that are still under discussion.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Correction: novelisors appeared in two companion chronicles cited by the OP. To make an informed decision on validity and to allow all other editors to easily observe evidence, I think it is important to have pages for the already valid things, based on which validity is claimed.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Okay :) That's fine by me, then. Just wanted to make sure we weren't creating pages about things in contention. Please be sure to not include information on this new page that comes from the contested sources that are the object of this thread.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • TheChampionOfTime wrote: I don't know why you feel the need to say "somebody". It's just us now. To answer your questions in reverse: "noveliser" probably came from our Cyrillic friend spelling it like he heard it, having just listened to both stories I can assure you that they both use the word "novelisor", I'm making the page now.

      Well, by "somebody" I meant the OP, whose name is just too much pain to type. Obviously I'd be happy if you do it. And since I don't expect this discussion to be closed overnight, I do strongly believe that this page would help potential other participants of the thread.

      However, since novelisors appeared in two stories (stories released under Doctor Who license I might add), and I take it that they never appeared anywhere before, i.e., were created for Doctor Who, and if the plot indeed is centred around a novelisor, then I can see why it should be a valid story.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • To clarify, Novelisors were created for Doctor Who. One of the two main characters of Imaginary Boys is a Novelisor, something which the plot is centered around. The other main character is from another Magrs novel that is unrelated to the DWU, but that didn't stop Enter Wildthyme from being a valid source.

      In my eyes, this situation is identical to the Iris Wildthyme series; Paul Magrs used a concept which was tied to the DWU in multiple stories in a story without the Doctor Who license.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • TheChampionOfTime wrote: An example which is a bit closer to this wiki would be BBV's Zygon: When Being You Just Isn't Enough (home video) and Cyberon (home video). Both are inarguably in the same world - the world of Lauren Anderson - but only one uses concepts from the DWU and therefore only one is covered on this wiki.

      I think this is totally different tho. If I understand this thread correctly (and I apologize if I don't) then there was a Short Trips story about a bunch of aliens and now there's a different audio series about those aliens and we're trying to decide if that makes the audio valid.

      Cyberon isn't valid because the Cyberons are meant to be Cybermen. It doesn't even ever say "The metal suit guys are Cyberons." "Cyberon" is the name of the medicine in the story that slowly turns you into an unnamed-grey-suit-dude. Cybermen were not liscensed for this film, as the BBC had standards even back then.

      If there had been a Short Trips story that introduced the Cyberon medicine and then the film had only featured the medicine and not the "almost Cybermen", then it would likely be valid.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Not exactly, there were a couple Companion Chronicles stories about these aliens and there is now a single half-hour audio drama about one of these aliens. Just as Lauren Anderson first appeared in Cyberon, the main human character in this story is from a previous novel called "The Diary of a Dr Who Addict". Just as ""When Being You Just Isn't Enough" can be watched without any knowledge of "Cyberon", "Imaginary Boys" can be listened to without any knowledge of "Diary of a Dr Who Addict", in fact I wouldn't have known that this character appeared in one of Magrs' previous works if not for this discussion.

      My point is, this story should be validated by itself regardless of previous works connected to it - just as we do with "When Being You Isn't Enough" or "Enter Wildthyme".

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • TheChampionOfTime wrote: Not exactly, there were a couple Companion Chronicles stories about these aliens and there is now a single half-hour audio drama about one of these aliens. Just as Lauren Anderson first appeared in Cyberon, the main human character in this story is from a previous novel called "The Diary of a Dr Who Addict". Just as ""When Being You Just Isn't Enough" can be watched without any knowledge of "Cyberon", "Imaginary Boys" can be listened to without any knowledge of "Diary of a Dr Who Addict", in fact I wouldn't have known that this character appeared in one of Magrs' previous works if not for this discussion.

      My point is, this story should be validated by itself regardless of previous works connected to it - just as we do with "When Being You Isn't Enough" or "Enter Wildthyme".

      In that case, I totally agree. I would imagine that Diary of a Dr Who Addict would not be valid, but IB would be.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Seeing as it's getting to be "closing threads" season, I thought I'd just mention a few valid stories that are in a similar situation to Imaginary Boys. If this story were to be declared invalid, I'd like to know why it's different from these ones.

      At the time of The Root of All Evil's release, the Krynoids had only appeared in two Doctor Who stories. Same thing with the I in I Scream.

      Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling!, The Quality of Mercy, Miranda, and The Winning Side all feature characters who had only appeared once in a Doctor Who story at the times when they were released.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • After another half-month of mulling it over, I've come to the opinion that Imaginary Boys is more deserving of coverage on this wiki than I Scream. The novelisors fully occupy both of their Dr Who appearances, while the I only appear in the last quarter of Seeing I and have a mere cameo in The Infinity Doctors.

      For what it's worth, Lisa Bowerman expressed interest in Big Finish doing another Novelisor story in the extras for Find and Replace.

      Also, while dredging through Paul Magrs' blog I found this: "Somehow I do see everything I write as happening within the same set of mashed-up universes." [1]

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • So to me this seems like the Novelisers, as a species created for and under a Doctor Who title, are worthy of having the same treatment as such figures as the Sontarans, K9, and even Bernice Summerfield. While some of the debates started around this time are quite puzzling and known to cause a hefty headache, this one is pretty easy to figure out for me.

      I thus agree fully that Imaginary Boys should have a role on this wiki. If other stories will follow due to connected elements should really be saved for another discussion -- I have not been convinced by the suggested addition of either I Scream or The Diary of a Dr. Who Addict should be the same.

      While Margs has meant for most of his stories to be set in one multi-verse, that doesn't mean that each of the stories is valid on this site simply because one of those worlds is the DWU (sometimes). In the same sense that we don't cover every Big Finish series, even if they've had crossovers several times before.

      As mentioned by CoT, the situation is very similar to the saga of BBV films starring Lauren Anderson. Sometimes those stories have licensed elements. Sometimes they have knock-off imitations of things that they don't have the rights to. Even though all of the stories are set in the same universe, Zygon is valid while Cyberon isn't.

      So unless The Diary of a Dr. Who Addict secretly features the novelisers (the only thing currently making Imaginary Boys worth debating), it is by no means valid.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • OttselSpy25 wrote: I have not been convinced by the suggested addition of either I Scream or The Diary of a Dr. Who Addict should be the same.

      I Scream is already a valid source.

      While Margs has meant for most of his stories to be set in one multi-verse, that doesn't mean that each of the stories is valid on this site simply because one of those worlds is the DWU (sometimes). In the same sense that we don't cover every Big Finish series, even if they've had crossovers several times before.

      I completely agree with you, if a story has no connection to Doctor Who we shouldn't cover it. The quote was just to give something from the writer about Imaginary Boys being in the same universe as Ringpullworld.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • I apologize, I figured it was another one of these lingering debates that seem to cross into each other.

      Is there currently any sort of sentiment for this to be invalid?

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Not at all, it's an audio drama with the licensed use of a Dr Who species, I'd probably start an inclusion debate if it weren't already valid.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • No, I mean Imaginary Boys. Sorry for pulling us off-topic.

      I was asking if anyone on the wiki is currently against IB being valid, and why.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • As already mentioned, the Novelisors were created for Doctor Who. As such, I am of the opinion that Imaginary Boys should be covered by this Wiki in the same manner as other works - several of which have already been cited by OttselSpy25 - that include only one DWU element and have no other connection to the wider DWU.

      I agree with TheChampionOfTime that the situation is the same as exists vis a vis the Iris Wildthyme series.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • TheChampionOfTime wrote: If this story were to be declared invalid, I'd like to know why it's different from these ones.

      At the time of The Root of All Evil's release, the Krynoids had only appeared in two Doctor Who stories. Same thing with the I in I Scream.

      Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling!, The Quality of Mercy, Miranda, and The Winning Side all feature characters who had only appeared once in a Doctor Who story at the times when they were released.

      Also, if this is written off as a "author uses his own character in a probably non-DWU story" case, I'd like to know why it's different from Enter Wildthyme, a novel by Paul Magrs which brings together many characters/locations/species from his fiction, many of them just happening to be from his Dr Who novels. If you were to do that, you'd probably need "Extraordinary non-narrative evidence — such as the story's author directly saying that the story doesn't happen in the normal DWU".

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Indeed, it is impossible to claim that a story wasn't met to be DWU-bound without any evidence.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Since CoT wanted to get my involvement into this, seeing all the arguments I agree that Imaginary Boys should be a valid source. But I see this opening a can of worms, as if we allow Imaginary Boys because of an appearance of a Novelisor, then The Memory Box (a Vienna story) should be allowed due to the appearance of a Slithergee, as well as Vienna herself. (Though I always thought Vienna should be on this wiki) This may or may not help

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Thank you, every person that chimes in helps. The Vienna situation is what it is because of authorial intent. The creator of the Vienna series made comments that distanced it from Doctor Who, but that is not the case here.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • This discussion has had enough time to air out, to get a true sense of the situation. Imaginary Boys is deemed to pass the four little rules of validity, as it centres on a DWU element: the primary character is a Novelisor. The Novelisor(s) in this are clearly intended to be the same Novelisors from other stories which were themselves also set in the DWU.

      Hearing no sustained objection, this thread is now closed for commenting, and Imaginary Boys (audio story) can now be covered on the wiki as a valid source.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.