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  • CzechOut
    CzechOut closed this thread because:
    See last post.
    17:05, June 2, 2017

    So I had a post I did about the problem of Osgood in the latest episode. It did not post. So instead of retyping it all I screen grabbed it:

    Repost of forum
      Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • I'd say we should merge the two in this case.

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    • I'm for changing it so that one is about the one killed by Missy and one is about the one still alive, instead of one being about the Human and the other the Zygon.

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    • I'm not sure about that. Most of the article would need to be identical in that case. And it wouldn't solve the dilemma of which of the two articles to link to when we mean either specific version in "The Day of the Doctor" or any appearances earlier in the timeline in the upcoming Big Finish series (which I assume will be set before "Day..." since I doubt they'll have two Osgoods there). Which also means you'd need to update both articles with identical info every time Big Finish releases a new UNIT story.

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    • Actually, if we change the focus from who is human and who is Zygon to who lives and who dies, it's not that different from the Peri who died, the Peri who married Yrcanos, the Peri who rejoined the Doctor etc. And we keep all these versions of Peri on one page.

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    • That's a lot of presuming. The audios could be set post-series 9 and Moffat could just have given people the heads up.

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    • Big Finish doesn't have the rights to anything past "The Day of the Doctor", they say so in their current FAQ. So references to Capaldi era are off limits, just like new series ones were before the license change.

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    • That doesn't mean it won't be set afterwards. Most Big Finish stories for a long time were set in the 2005-2010 eras, but they still didn't own the rights to the contemporary eras there.

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: Actually, if we change the focus from who is human and who is Zygon to who lives and who dies, it's not that different from the Peri who died, the Peri who married Yrcanos, the Peri who rejoined the Doctor etc. And we keep all these versions of Peri on one page.

      Entirely different, although you have a point there.

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    • Really Just Marge the pages it is annoying I am still coup fused which is which but

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    • "Entirely different, although you have a point there."

      Not that different given that we learn in "Peri and the Piscon Paradox" that all these versions of Peri coexisted.

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    • From what we saw on screen so far, they are both the "real" Osgood. In the context of Death in Heaven onward, neither is definitively the human and neither is definitively the Zygon.

      Of course, this could all change in a week's time.

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    • OWL

      When one of the Osgoods referred to her and the other Osgood as "human-Zygon hybrids" (while she was explaining to the Doctor that neither she or the other Osgood was either full human or full Zygon anymore), I interpreted that as this: One of the two Osgoods is full human, and one of the Osgoods is full Zygon, but since neither can remember which one they are, it is as if they are just one person; A hybrid of human and Zygon. I might be completley off here, but I thought the hybrid thing was theoretical. Therefore, I think there should be one single "Osgood" article that explains the two Osgoods. They're simply inseparable!

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: Big Finish doesn't have the rights to anything past "The Day of the Doctor", they say so in their current FAQ. So references to Capaldi era are off limits, just like new series ones were before the license change.

      Slight correction: They don't have the rights to anything beyond Time of the Doctor.

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    • OWL wrote: When one of the Osgoods referred to her and the other Osgood as "human-Zygon hybrids" (while she was explaining to the Doctor that neither she or the other Osgood was either full human or full Zygon anymore), I interpreted that as this: One of the two Osgoods is full human, and one of the Osgoods is full Zygon, but since neither can remember which one they are, it is as if they are just one person; A hybrid of human and Zygon. I might be completley off here, but I thought the hybrid thing was theoretical. Therefore, I think there should be one single "Osgood" article that explains the two Osgoods. They're simply inseparable!

      It is clear from The Day of the Doctor that the Zygon knew herself to be the Zygon, and the human knew herself to be the human.

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    • Yea, they know who is who but choose not to disclose it to the audience or the people surrounding them.

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    • I say that if we don't find out who is who next week, we merge the articles. Otherwise, we'll never know which article to post information about Osgood in in Post-Day episodes. Even now, the picture in Human-Osgood's infobox might be the Zygon.

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    • I agree with Gowron. We wait for the next episode, and that doesn't settle the matter, they need to merge.

      On a similar topic, are the Zygon Kate Stewarts in Day of the Doctor and The Zygon Invasion the same Zygon? If not, then that article needs a split.

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    • The Kates are almost certainly not the same Zygon, but I think we need to wait for the next episode before we can determine if there even is a Kate Zygon in The Zygon Invasion. Kate may have pulled a Queen Elizabeth, and killed the Zygon and is now impersonating it.

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    • Big Finish confirmed that their new UNIT series "takes place between Kate's appearances in the Doctor Who TV episodes The Power of Three and The Day of the Doctor".

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    • Ah, ok

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    • In that case, Merging is the clear solution.

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: Big Finish confirmed that their new UNIT series "takes place between Kate's appearances in the Doctor Who TV episodes The Power of Three and The Day of the Doctor".

      Day of the Doctor was Osgood's debut, as well as when the Zygon duplicate was created, so if this is earlier, then there's definitely only the human one in the Big Finish series. It shouldn't affect the decision of whether to merge or not, since we know which page the info about Osgood in those audio stories belongs on. It's only appearances set AFTER Day of the Doctor that have any bearing on this.

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    • We shouldn't really be talking about the UNIT series, because there are pages that currently exist we need to decide on first.

      In any case, Saturday may clear up some of the confusion.

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    • Digifiend wrote:

      JagoAndLitefoot wrote: Big Finish confirmed that their new UNIT series "takes place between Kate's appearances in the Doctor Who TV episodes The Power of Three and The Day of the Doctor".

      Day of the Doctor was Osgood's debut, as well as when the Zygon duplicate was created, so if this is earlier, then there's definitely only the human one in the Big Finish series. It shouldn't affect the decision of whether to merge or not, since we know which page the info about Osgood in those audio stories belongs on. It's only appearances set AFTER Day of the Doctor that have any bearing on this.

      I think that the point was that this means changing the pages to be based around the Osgood who died in Dark Water and the one still alive in the Zygon two-parter is just as messy as what we have now.

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    • Going in here blind, I think post-DIH Osgood should have her own page with dubious species. For current and Zygon page, end it with:

      One of the Osgoods was murdered by Missy after she was offered companionship by the Twelfth Doctor, (TV: Death in Heaven) with {{[[}}Petronella Osgood (The Zygon Invasion)|the surviving Osgood{{]]}} dedicating herself to the peace treaty by refusing to identify her species. (TV: The Zygon Invasion)

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    • We still don't know which is which, so I say redirect both to Petronella Osgood, since her first name got revealed which means you have to rename whatever page(s) is kept anyway.

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    • Now there's three of them. I'm convinced that Moffat just wants to troll wikia editors.

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    • There is no definitive proof as to which is which, even with a third Osgood running around.

      And are we absolutely sure from in-universe evidence that "Petronella" is her first name, given that a) we don't know if it's the human who said it and b) it could be construed as sarcastic given the nature of the conversation?

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    • At this point, all the Osgoods should go on one page because all of them identify as the same being.

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    • We also need to update this article with information from the Zygon Invasion & the Zygon Inversion.

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    • Ingrid Oliver has said that keen-eyed Whovians are able to tell who's who.

      But, as for the video recorded of the Zygon Osgood and human Osgood in The Zygon Invasion I would say that the one in the scarf might be the Zygon, and the other one would be human... I think

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    • Make four pages

      1. A page about Petronella Osgood, the human who appeared in "The Day of the Doctor". List all information that is shown to be 100% true about her and that she later became on of the Osgoods.

      2. A page about Zygon Osgood, the Zygon who took Osgoods form, put all the information about her up until the inhaler scene in DotD under biography, and then explain that she became one of the Osgoods.

      3. Bonnie's page. At the end of her biography put that she became one of the Osgoods.

      4. A page simply called the Osgoods. On this page list the events of DiH, TZInva, and TZInver. Say that the pair were both Zygon!Osgood and Human!Osgood and then write about the Osgood that died and the Osgood who lived on that page, as well as any of Bonnie's actions after she became one of the Osgoods. If Bonnie appears in future episodes, add on to this page, not her own.

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    • I see where you're going at, but the "Osgoods" page should perhaps not exist. However maybe and "Osgood (disambiguation)" page perhaps.

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    • The Osgoods page would have to exist though. That would have all information about Osgood when we don't know which version it is. Now that we have Bonnie, who we know more about before she became Osgood, four pages seems the best way to go. If we go down this road, I would title the pages Petronella Osgood (Human), Petronella Osgood (Zygon), Bonnie, and Petronella Osgood.

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    • Well... I think at least we should have more people in on the idea, before we decide anything.

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    • DoctorWhoLetTheDogsOut wrote: Make four pages

      1. A page about Petronella Osgood, the human who appeared in "The Day of the Doctor". List all information that is shown to be 100% true about her and that she later became on of the Osgoods.

      2. A page about Zygon Osgood, the Zygon who took Osgoods form, put all the information about her up until the inhaler scene in DotD under biography, and then explain that she became one of the Osgoods.

      3. Bonnie's page. At the end of her biography put that she became one of the Osgoods.

      4. A page simply called the Osgoods. On this page list the events of DiH, TZInva, and TZInver. Say that the pair were both Zygon!Osgood and Human!Osgood and then write about the Osgood that died and the Osgood who lived on that page, as well as any of Bonnie's actions after she became one of the Osgoods. If Bonnie appears in future episodes, add on to this page, not her own.

      Was actually thinking of something like this myself.

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    • OWL

      OttselSpy25 wrote:

      DoctorWhoLetTheDogsOut wrote: Make four pages

      1. A page about Petronella Osgood, the human who appeared in "The Day of the Doctor". List all information that is shown to be 100% true about her and that she later became on of the Osgoods.

      2. A page about Zygon Osgood, the Zygon who took Osgoods form, put all the information about her up until the inhaler scene in DotD under biography, and then explain that she became one of the Osgoods.

      3. Bonnie's page. At the end of her biography put that she became one of the Osgoods.

      4. A page simply called the Osgoods. On this page list the events of DiH, TZInva, and TZInver. Say that the pair were both Zygon!Osgood and Human!Osgood and then write about the Osgood that died and the Osgood who lived on that page, as well as any of Bonnie's actions after she became one of the Osgoods. If Bonnie appears in future episodes, add on to this page, not her own.

      Was actually thinking of something like this myself.

      Yes, this sounds like the clearest solution!

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    • Is there any precedent for two Zygons taking the form of the same human at the same time? If not, I'd say that would indicate that the Osgood seen throughout the two-parter was indeed the human one.

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    • MystExplorer wrote: Is there any precedent for two Zygons taking the form of the same human at the same time? If not, I'd say that would indicate that the Osgood seen throughout the two-parter was indeed the human one.

      Complete speculation. If the episode doesn't tell us, we can't go tip-toeing around the idea by trying to apply fan logic to it.

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    • Human Osgood and Zygon Osgood are separate beings, but we have precedent for putting multiple closely associated beings on the same article. Clara's splinters share the Clara Oswald article, so why can't the Petronella Osgood article be like this:

      Petronella Osgood was a collective identity taken by three individuals, one human and two Zygons. The original Osgood was a human scientist who worked for UNIT... (continuing on from the current article)

      Bonnie would have her own article, detailing events up to the end of Inversion. If a second Osgood appears at any point post-Inversion, it can be inferred that one of them is Bonnie, but unless there is evidence as to which is which, it would go on the Petronella Osgood article.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote: Human Osgood and Zygon Osgood are separate beings, but we have precedent for putting multiple closely associated beings on the same article. Clara's splinters share the Clara Oswald article, so why can't the Petronella Osgood article be like this:

      Petronella Osgood was a collective identity taken by three individuals, one human and two Zygons. The original Osgood was a human scientist who worked for UNIT... (continuing on from the current article)

      Bonnie would have her own article, detailing events up to the end of Inversion. If a second Osgood appears at any point post-Inversion, it can be inferred that one of them is Bonnie, but unless there is evidence as to which is which, it would go on the Petronella Osgood article.

      I think that is definitely what the Petronella Osgood page should look like, but if Bonnie is also getting her own page, then I think all three need their own page. After all, human-Osgood will be appearing in Big Finish tomorrow. I would just end the Petronella Osgood (Human) page's history at either the moment the Zygon takes her form, or the moment the Doctors wipe everyone's memory. Then just say that she became a member of the collective Osgood and continue to that page for further history. The Petronella Osgood (Zygon) page would be really short, but whatever.

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    • I'm gonna work out a sandbox of how I think that this should look.

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    • Tomorrow tho. Tomorrow.

      I'm thinking four pages: Osgood (The Day of the Doctor), Zygon Osgood, Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion), and The Osgoods.

      The Osgoods cover all accounts where there are multiple Osgoods and it's unclear who's who (even if one of them is dead), while the other three pages will cover them up to the point where it's known who is who, and then link to the article for the rest of the character's narrative.

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    • Except that Tardis:Naming conventions says that we typically use singular names for article titles. So all other issues aside, "The Osgoods" will probably not fly.

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    • Well I think that we need a different name for the hub article.

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    • I think the hub article should be Petronella Osgood. All three of them identify as Osgood, and I think we can trust her when she told us her first name. Also, for what its worth, there's this quote from Big Finish. "The Zygon's TV opponents will also be returning soon, as Kate Stewart (Jemma Redgrave) and Petronella Osgood (Ingrid Oliver) deploy for battle against the Nestene Consciousness in UNIT: Extinction"

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    • OWL wrote:

      OttselSpy25 wrote:

      DoctorWhoLetTheDogsOut wrote: Make four pages

      1. A page about Petronella Osgood, the human who appeared in "The Day of the Doctor". List all information that is shown to be 100% true about her and that she later became on of the Osgoods.

      2. A page about Zygon Osgood, the Zygon who took Osgoods form, put all the information about her up until the inhaler scene in DotD under biography, and then explain that she became one of the Osgoods.

      3. Bonnie's page. At the end of her biography put that she became one of the Osgoods.

      4. A page simply called the Osgoods. On this page list the events of DiH, TZInva, and TZInver. Say that the pair were both Zygon!Osgood and Human!Osgood and then write about the Osgood that died and the Osgood who lived on that page, as well as any of Bonnie's actions after she became one of the Osgoods. If Bonnie appears in future episodes, add on to this page, not her own.

      Was actually thinking of something like this myself.

      Yes, this sounds like the clearest solution!

      While I don't know what to do about Bonnie in her form as Bonnie (incidentally, she already has a page at Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion)), I disagree with this proposal, especially as a "clearest" solution. It seems horribly convoluted. The "Zygon Osgood" and Bonnie (at the end of The Zygon Inversion) are both "Zygon Osgoods", after all.

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    • Danniesen wrote: Ingrid Oliver has said that keen-eyed Whovians are able to tell who's who.

      But, as for the video recorded of the Zygon Osgood and human Osgood in The Zygon Invasion I would say that the one in the scarf might be the Zygon, and the other one would be human... I think

      Steven Moffat has also said that he doesn't know which Osgood is which and he's only the official biographer, while Oliver herself said afterwards either she does or she can't say. [1] And "might be" is not a valid source.

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    • Seeing as how they act as one in the same, they should be treated as such, with a special section on the osgood page to explain the Zygon Osgood situation. Also, the human Osgood's page should be changed to Petronella Osgood.

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    • I think the Osgood on the right (who was wearing the scarf)is the Osgood who died as she is wearing the exact same clothes (with only the scarf being changed for a bowtie). However, I think Ingrid was saying you can tell which one died not which one is the human or Zygon.

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    • I suggest we dont merge any of the pages. For all three Osgoods - Osgood, Zygood and Bonnie - keep the information from before they merged together. Then keep the information from after they merged identicle until we get some explaination in future.

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    • It's likely to be quite some time until this happens, so I believe we should merge until more information arrives on who is who. Simply because, they all act as one, are all seen as one in the DWU, and are unknown as to who is who.

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    • Personally I believe Steven Moffat isnt done with this whole Zygon plot. You cant expect humans and Zygons to live hapily forever. I think he'll change things up again when Osgood returns. Maybe he'll make a rogue Zygon (who wants information about the Osgood box) take Osgood's form from before Death In Heaven.

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    • I agree, but I also believe it won't be for at least another series or so. And so we should merge simply to make things simpler to explain on one page until this new information arrives.

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    • I think that most of us agree with that, but doubt how a three-person page with different entry points and backgrounds would work. Thus it should be decided which we go with: three pages for Osgood, Zygon Osgood 1, and Zigella with links to the Osgood page for stories unclear about who is who, or somehow combining the three into one page in the first place.

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    • I just feel it would be simpler to merge them.

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    • Can someone do a draft of what this would look like tho? I could, but I just had some minor surgery and I'm not up to it.

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    • Or maybe just a merge of the Original Zygon Osgood and Petronella Osgood, would be better, considering Bonnie was also "Clara"

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    • It's really the Bonnie issue that makes this a bigger issue -- it seems odd to have one of the trinity separate because we know her name and have proof of her disguised as someone else.

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    • But she should be left out because she also disguised herself as Clara and there is more to her than just Osgood #3, as opposed to the Zygon Osgood who was only one of the Osgoods.

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    • What you're saying is that the reason that she is different is that she has a different back story. Well that same logic could be used for making the first two Osgoods separate, couldn't it?

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    • Yes but Bonnie should be separate because we know her backstory, if Osgood #2 gets a backstory in the future that we know about, then we should give her her own page then, but for now, there's so little we know, other than She is one of the Osgoods and is a Zygon and possibly dead, there's no reason for her not to have her own section on Petronella Osgood's page, especially considering the fact that they were both considered the real Osgood.

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    • Osgood 2 has a backstory. "I'm a Zygon. I escaped my planet."

      It's a story that will not be reflected in the new BF audios.

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    • Each Osgood has a backstory. Osgood #1 is self explanatory as she was a UNIT scientist, fan of the Doctor and did some things in DoTD before Zygon Osgood showed up.Osgood#2 fled her planet, came to earth hundreds of years ago and waited in a statis cube until she escaped. Osgood#3 had the whole two parter doing stuff on her own before becoming Osgood.

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    • Plus Osgood 1 has her own audio now.

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    • Exactly :p

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    • Well, Give Osgood #2 her own section on Petronella's Osgood's page

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    • Certainly I'm not the only one who thinks this way on here

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    • Then why would Bonnie get her own page? Not consistent.

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    • Despite being an Osgood, Bonnie is a separate character from "the Osgoods" as a whole, because of her role in the two-parter as a whole.

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    • You could argue the same thing for the first Zygon osgood tho. It's almost the same story actually.

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    • But we wont know which one Bonnie is, when we see her again. Give them all desperate pages.

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    • Oops, i went to say seperate but my mind was thinking different.

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    • Merging the pages wouldnt be good. I know Bonnie and the other zygon osgood all became osgood mentally in a pshycic link but previous to that they are individual people so the page should end with "they took osgoods form and became osgood"

      All the osgoods are collectively one person

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    • All the other osgoods are irrelevent. Petronella Osgood is her actual name and we know that

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    • We're not asking what her name is. We're asking how to handle the fact there are three of her.

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    • Perhaps, a slightly alternative view in support of the 4-page solution. The post The-Zygon-Inversion-state of Osgood is not really a person. It's a job, a function if you like. While only one human could/can perform this function, any Zygon can. At different times there have been one or two Human-Zygon-peacekeepers. Nothing prevents there being more in the future (originally there was a human/zygon symmetry, but it has been broken by the death of one of them and it might still be broken now). The condition of performing this function is abandoning one's personality in favor of the original human Osgood's one.

      So one page for the function, three pages for persons who are known to have performed this function. Potentially, more pages can lead into the function page if new Zygons take the role. Potentially, if the peace treaty does fail in the future and the Zygons go their own way, the personal pages pick up from there. Potential problem would be if it would not be stated which Zygon abandons the role of Osgood. But this can be resolved by simply creating a separate page (temporarily or otherwise) with the rationale that the Osgood experience changes the personality.

      As for merging all pages together, there are counterexamples. For instance, Tayden's connection to Ares is even stronger than that of Bonnie to the Osgood Inc: 1) Tayden was originally a clone of Ares bred for the purpose of transferring Ares's consciousness into him; 2) Tayden and Ares were voiced by the same actor, despite the presumed age difference; 3) the transfer was irreversible: Tayden's personality was not retrievable, whereas, say, Bonnie can walk away any moment. Despite this strong connection, Tayden's page is not merged into Ares's. Instead, Tayden's page ends in the transfer from Ares to his body. The next action of this body is recorded on Ares's page.

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    • I've resisted responding to this because I hoped there would be some resolution in the recent Osgood releases, but no dice. I absolutely hate the idea of combining three distinct characters on the same page. However, I will begrudgingly accept it because I don't think we will ever get an answer on who actually died in Dark Water and then add to that, Osgood has now become a "position" that others like Bonnie can claim.

      But Petronella? The fact that the Doctor says his name is Basil and Osgood later calls him Basil makes me very suspicious about whether she was serious about that being her name or not. Does Extinction confirm her first name is Petronella in-story?

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    • Unlikely, but often out-of-universe implications can be used to reflect how we interpret in-universe treatments... See The Infinity Doctors.

      I pretty much support the idea of having one page for "OSGOOD" and then the three pages listing the different "incarnations" as separate articles. It's similar to how we treat time lord pages and also how we treat the Cyberman page (with the unknowns being listed on the main page)

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    • "UNIT: Extinction" doesn't call her Petronella in-story (as it was recorded months before), but Big Finish does call her that on their website, as does the BBC.

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    • I think that by far the easiest solution to all of this to have a page for Petronella, and another for Bonnie. "Zygon Osgood" has no individual character traits or backstory, and we would be going on pure speculation to assume who the Osgood in Invasion/Inversion is. Regardless, the Doctor has already rid the DWU of the assumption that one is "pure Zygon" and another "pure human", describing their link in vague terms but making clear that they both share some characteristics of both species, making them a form of hybrid.

      Bonnie, on the other hand, can have another page. It would not be inconsistent in the slightest to give a separate character their page own page simply because of the fact they assumed another identity. In future we may be forced to merge the pages if we again are given uncertain presentation of an "Osgood", but prior to such occurring, the character Bonnie is easily distinguishable from the unknown Osgood in every scene of the aforementioned two-parter.

      And, of course we can use the disambiguation page if necessary to refer users to Bonnie. But at the moment, there is no obvious need to do so.

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    • I once again must voice my opinion that there is just as much justification to have the Zygon Osgood have her own page as to allow Bonnie to have one. Either we keep them all separate with one page for the vague "concept" of Osgood or we merge all three into one. That's our only two options I think.

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    • Any ideas on what the pages would be tho? Obviously there's

      Any ideas for the hub page's name?

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    • Except there isn't. Bonnie was given her own name, given individual opinions and numerous lines of dialogue, and had a leading role and plot function within her story.

      "Zygon Osgood" was given none of those things, and may not even have existed as a separate entity post-DotD, as per the Doctor's statements. Assuming differently would be speculative in the extreme.

      If, and only if, we are again presented with Osgoods of unclear identity, we can and almost definitely should merge all three. But until then, there is no in-universe sourcing that ever makes unclear who Bonnie is. She is always a separate entity to "Osgood", even during the brief time she takes on Petronella's appearance.

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    • OttselSpy25 wrote: Any ideas on what the pages would be tho? Obviously there's

      Any ideas for the hub page's name?

      More likely a set would be Petronella Osgood, Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) and the already existing Osgood, for disambiguation.

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    • You could aruge that HUMAN Osgood was given her own name, given individual opinions and numerous lines of dialogue, and had a leading role and plot function within her story as well.

      Bonnie is now an Osgood. In future appearances, it will be just as unclear who is who. You can't speculate that the reveal that Bonnie becomes an Osgood wasn't there because it was. And as human Osgood has just as much of a unique back story as Bonnie, both totally separate from the Zygon Osgood, then there's absolutely no reason to consider Bonnie an exception. So either we keep all three separate and have a hub page or we merge all three.

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    • Except she has since merged with "Zygon Osgood", creating an unclear being and/or character. Assuming that Bonnie will ever again appear is pure speculation, and causes more problems for in-universe reasoning and works against some of our very most fundamental policies. If Bonnie were ever "mixed" with the undefined being "Osgood", then we would need a merge. Until then, no such action is necessary.

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    • She was mixed with the undefined being "Osgood." In that final scene it's unclear who is who. We presume that our Osgood is the one who's dressed up in the UNIT-lapel-thing but it's made clear that either one could be her.

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    • We're going in circles here. My new proposal is:

      • The page Petronella Osgood (renamed from Osgood (The Day of the Doctor)) is about all three, and details all events that can't be attributed specifically to one of the Zygons.
      • The page Zygon Petronella Osgood (renamed from Zygon Osgood) is about both Zygons, and details all events that can be attributed specifically to one of the Zygons, but can't be attributed specifically to Bonnie.
      • The page Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) details all events that can be attributed specifically to Bonnie.
      • The page Osgood continues to act as a disambiguation page, for all characters and concepts named "Osgood" including Bonnie.

      It is unlikely that Bonnie and another confirmed Zygon will appear together in the future, but I'm future-proofing this just in case.

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    • To further prove that Zygon Petronella Osgood should have her own page, not merged with Petronella Osgood, here is an almost completely analogous case. Billy (Death in Blackpool) had almost no lines and very little screen/speaker time before being killed and his personality being taken over by a Zynog. For most of the story, the Zynog was using his body and was voiced by the same actor. Nevertheless, Billy has a separate page, not merged with that of the Zynog.

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    • The same for every page on a human who is impersonated. See Kritakh and Michael Kirkwood

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    • Of course they have their own pages, apart from the Zygon duplicates. They are characters that are duplicated by a Zygon who takes on their appearance. Zygons don't just invent a new form.

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    • Not necessarily. For most of The Zygon Who Fell to Earth (audio story), Haygoth was wearing the appearance of a musician Trevor. However, Trevor does not have his own page. To me it seems that the determining factor is whether a character (human or Zygon, we're not specieist) appears in the story itself. In the case of Trevor, only his comatose (?) body is present for the purposes of Haygoth's bodyprinting. Since he does not say or do anything, there is no page, even though there is a backstory that is important to the overall plot. Zygon Osgood does and says things, though not much, exactly as in the case of Billy mentioned above.

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    • No, the defining factor is if the audio has been covered correctly. There should be a page on the musician Trevor. I think that this is pretty definitive.

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    • Well, this is as good a time as any to formulate a comprehensive policy regarding body doubles: here are some other cases while we're at it.

      The Zygon Mims posing as Humphrey Mims. Nothing is known about the human. Page or no page for Humphrey Mims?

      The Zygon Urtak from the same story. Nothing, not even a name is known of the human he copied. Page or no page for the unnamed human whose form Urtak used?

      The late Baron Teufel was impersonated by an alien. There are flashbacks to the life of the actual baron. Page or no page for the human baron?

      My personal inclination would be to create such a page only if at least something other than the name is known about the human character. So pages for Trevor and original Baron Teufel but no page for human prototypes of Mims and Urtak.

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    • All originals should have their own page. The human Jemima and Claudette should also have pages, even though they didn't appear themselves.

      The human counterparts for all must exist in DWU (even if never seen) as, as I mentioned above, Zygons don't just invent a new form.

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    • If someone says "I'm a duplicate of George" then george should get a page. It's no different from "I've got a cousin named George."

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    • Well, if this is the standard level of detail, then there is no point even contemplating the idea that Zygon Osgood should have no page.

      Just for the record, this means that both "The Zygon Inv*" stories are seriously underprocessed. Apart form Jemima and Claudette prototypes, there are prototypes of the policewoman from Truth or Consequences, of Clara's neighbors, of UNIT soldiers' parents, of Etoine, of UNIT soldiers, maybe someone else.

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    • Hold the phone. This thread is just about Osgood, which is a more complex issue than the basic question of body doubles.

      And thus far the practice has been that we make separate pages for characters and their doubles; for example, Margaret Blaine, who never appeared on screen, has her own page. If this needs to be formulated in some kind of policy, it should be done in another thread.

      So let's keep this discussion just on Osgood. If you want to use other characters' pages as examples, fine, but that's it.

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    • Yeah, the point was only meant for examples, but I guess it went a little far off.

      But to end the discussion on the issue of doubles, only those significant are created (for example: only Hitchley's mother, not the rest of the "women")

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    • It was not completely useless: we have a confirmation that Zygon Osgood would have a page according to common practice.

      Since I was partially guilty of the distraction, let me try to focus attention by summarizing the choices left. (Please, correct me at will.)

      Option 1. Separate page for each of the three characters and the fourth page for the conglomerate. Names of pages are to be chosen.

      Option 2. One page for all four. Whether to use Petronella needs to be decided.

      I vote option 1 with page names Osgood (UNIT: Extinction), Zygon Osgood (The Day of the Doctor), Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) and Osgood (hybrid).

      Justification: these names are long so adding Petronella would make them overlong (it can be added in the text). Plus, the policy says to use the most commonly used name. In UNIT: Extinction, Osgood explicitly states that most people call her "Osgood". For separate characters, the names are unambiguous as each cited story only has one copy of this particular type (in particular, the two Zygon Osgood issue is resolved). The "hybrid" moniker is based on the Doctor's words in The Zygon Invasion (TV story). It emphasizes that they are not just human and Zygon but something more. Also hybrid is starting to look like a general topic (if not an ark) of Series 9 to me, so it would be nice to acknowledge it. I also believe that "hybrid" is sufficiently telling not to mix it with either human or Zygon Osgood.

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    • But for disambiguation we use the story in which a character first appeared in terms of release chronology, not internal chronology (so the original Osgood being in "UNIT: Extinction" doesn't matter). Both the original Osgood and her first Zygon double first appeared in "The Day of the Doctor".

      By the way, "UNIT: Extinction" is the name of the anthology, if anything it should be "Osgood (Vanguard)", the first individual story in the set, if we were to use it.

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    • The reasoning for this is that UNIT: Domination is the first story to feature ONLY the human Osgood definitively. I believe that there is a story that goes by the same logic, if I can just find it...

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    • OttselSpy25 wrote: She was mixed with the undefined being "Osgood." In that final scene it's unclear who is who. We presume that our Osgood is the one who's dressed up in the UNIT-lapel-thing but it's made clear that either one could be her.

      Except she isn't. In the first place, we are clearly shown who is who. Of course they could be being inaccurate with their definitions, but so could any character ever. Do we create a page at Zygon Leela simply because she might have been a Zygon duplicate all along? And in the second, nothing happens in those final scenes which could be referred to as of uncertain character. Even if Unknown Osgood was pretending to be Bonnie, and vice-versa, the information we glean can either be attributed to the "appropriate" character, or simply left out due to the fact that no specifically attributable lines of dialogue need be referenced on either page. That scene certainly does not meld Bonnie into our unknown being, leaving her a completely separate character.

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    • It is almost definitely worthwhile to remain with the four pages we have. Osgood will be left no matter what, so that needn't even be considered for a merge. It is reasonable to assume that Osgood (TDotD) can be renamed Petronella Osgood, as we have no reason to doubt the authenticity of this name any more than any other name someone uses to introduce themself. Bonnie definitely does not need merging at this point in time; whether "future proofing" is something this wiki is going to begin to do is something which should be authoritatively decided, and given the fact our spoiler policy and the fact that speculation is completely invalid here leads me to believe that doing so is very, very close to a huge breach of policy. Finally, Zygon Osgood, or whatever its name may be in the future, can be left as a page. The only real cause for debate here is whether it should be merged, something that wouldn't be entirely necessary, but which might be favourable.

      So I see three options:

      1. We leave all pages, writing similar information in for both Petronella and Zygon Osgood.

      2. We merge Petronella and Zygon Osgood, squeezing in the information about Zygon Osgood pre-hybridisation as a sort of prelude for "Osgood"'s life post-hybridisation.

      3. We add a third page on the being "Osgood" referring to the events of the Osgood twins post-hybridisation, and cut off Petronella and Zygon's pages at the end of their roles in TDotD.

      Personally, I feel the third option is most suitable, as we are therefore not duplicating information due to non-speculation, and we are also not trying to shove in info about a separate character on another character's page. That way we simply give the new page two sections: the one who we see in DiH and who dies, and the one who we see in Inversion/Invasion who hasn't yet. And that way, we simultaneously "future proof" our wiki by allowing any post-Inversion Bonnie stories to be covered on the hybrid page, finishing Bonnie's page at the end of Inversion, if ever necessary. So my vote is for pages to be written and maintained for Osgood, Petronella Osgood, Zygon Osgood, Osgood (hybrid) or whatever we may choose to call it, and Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion).

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    • RogerAckroydLives wrote: It is almost definitely worthwhile to remain with the four pages we have. [...] So my vote is for pages to be written and maintained for Osgood, Petronella Osgood, Zygon Osgood, Osgood (hybrid) or whatever we may choose to call it, and Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion).

      To prevent misunderstanding, my vote was for the same pages (with different names): I simply forgot to mention the disambiguation page Osgood (not that anyone doubted that's needed).

      Also a procedural suggestion. Whenever discussing a particular page name, it is better to mention the set of page names from which it is taken: the same name may be unambiguous in one set but ambiguous in another (of course, the ideal is to choose names that are unambiguous in every reasonable set, but whether this is possible in this Moffat world, I don't know).

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: Both the original Osgood and her first Zygon double first appeared in "The Day of the Doctor".

      Comment for the set of names: Osgood (disambiguation page), Osgood (UNIT: Vanguard), Zygon Osgood (The Day of the Doctor), Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) and Osgood (hybrid).

      To expand on this point, it appears that usually having "Character" and "Zygon Character" pages serves the purposes of disambiguation already, which is why the goal is to distinguish Osgood from Osgood (hybrid), not from Zygon Osgood. Since The Day of the Doctor (TV story) does not really distinguish them, we can either leave it at Osgood and Osgood (hybrid) or make it explicit by calling them Human Osgood and Hybrid Osgood.

      Secondly, I have realized that Bonnie is not a second Zygon Osgood at the end of The Zygon Inversion (TV story). I think she is Hybrid Osgood and RogerAckroydLives thinks she's not even that. At any rate, there is no ambiguity in saying Zygon Osgood if we also have Hybrid Osgood around. Thus, I tend to almost take RogerAckroydLives's suggestion with one change:

      Osgood (disambiguation page), Human Osgood (<--- this is the change), Zygon Osgood, Hybrid Osgood, Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion).

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    • I personally think Petronella Osgood is enough of a disambiguation, as it is a name not attributable to any Zygon, rather a name attributable to Human Osgood and any hybrid she may become part of. Perhaps, then, we could have Petronella Osgood (hybrid) for the uncertain twins, regardless of whether we use the name for the original human.

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    • "Osgood (UNIT: Vanguard)"

      Just Osgood (Vanguard), if anything, the title of the story itself has no prefix (just like we don't prefix episode titles with "Doctor Who:".

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    • Amorkuz wrote: Plus, the policy says to use the most commonly used name. In UNIT: Extinction, Osgood explicitly states that most people call her "Osgood".

      This is no different from any other last-name basis. We use the full name if it is known, even for duplicates known to use that name.

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    • The exception is if the name comes from the novelization.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote: This is no different from any other last-name basis. We use the full name if it is known, even for duplicates known to use that name.

      Before we get lost in terminology, for the record, by "full name" you mean first and last name as opposed to full name (including middle names, etc.). This is important because the policy mentions "full name" in this latter meaning.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote: This is no different from any other last-name basis. We use the full name if it is known, even for duplicates known to use that name.

      And yes, you are right. I misquoted the policy from memory. The "most common" part concerned the last name only. If known, first and last name are the standard. Mea culpa.

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    • Oh, for goodness sake. One page, 'Bonnie', for the character appearing in TZI two-parter, ending with a note that she became part of the Petronella Osgood identity at the end of said episodes. One page, 'Petronella Osgood', describing the identity comprised of multiple beings, human and zygons, one of which died in Death in Heaven, that is then joined/entered into by the Zygon formerly known as Bonnie. That suits how people will actually want to use it. Not 20 different pages for two characters and one random monster that stood in the background in DotD except when it became Osgood. That would just be annoying.

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    • OttselSpy25 wrote: The exception is if the name comes from the novelization.

      I don't logically see why that's an exception, but novelisations are another beast entirely.

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    • Okay, I'm a new voice in this discussion, and I'm surprised no one has said what it is I have to say. The IP editor above got quite close.

      It's not actually a very complicated case: Osgood is an identity. The whole point of her character in the Zygon two-parter is that once both assumed that identity, neither was specifically human and neither was specifically Zygon. If we must put something in the infobox as species, Osgood literally gives us "hybrid" in the script.

      So. Osgood is Osgood, regardless of origins. It is an identity, and it is a character. Prior to TDOTD, that identity belonged to only one individual. So in the history section of the one Osgood page, it would, at first, simply be human Osgood's story. Prior to to the peace treaty Day, "Zygon Osgood", as we seem to be calling her here, did not identify as Osgood. Prior to the end of Inversion, Bonnie did not identify as Osgood.

      Thus, the Osgood Zygon from Day still needs their own page, but their history ends when they actually become Osgood, and Osgood's joint history continues on the Osgood page. The Zygon who mocked Osgood, stole her inhaler, who I believe tried to attack Clara, is not Osgood. That Zygon, though, slightly later on in their history, became Osgood, and at that point it all merges. No duplicate information needed on the Zygon page, because that individual ceased to be that Zygon that was impersonating Osgood, and became one of two Osgoods, each with a different species.

      Let's call that page Zygon (Osgood) for now, because I think some unconventional dabbing for this case is in order. That character is a Zygon, and not actually Osgood; "Osgood" is simply the only identifier we have for that Zygon, because that was the form they took and no other name was revealed. Zygon Kate Stewart should be Zygon (Kate Stewart) as well, Zygon (Elizabeth), Zygon (horse), etc. In normal circumstances, the disambiguation would be the story page, but in this case there are several Zygons from the same story that each need individual pages. (On a slightly off-topic note, I think we should do the same with Slitheen whose actual names we don't know—Slitheen (Human They're Impersonating)
      I think it's a very different case with Zygons than it was with Gangers, who were the people they were copied from, simply not human. These Zygons were simply Zygons who we characterise by the people they pretended to be. If we ever do find out which Osgood is which, which I believe we won't, and we decide to separate them, then they would get Ganger-like treatment, with Osgood as the main name, and, say, (Zygon) and (Bonnie) as disambiguation terms.

      Though obviously we can point out that immediately after the merge, each knew which they were because Zygon Osgood gave human Osgood her inhaler, unless something new comes up in future, we should not attempt to separate Osgood by her species at any point after the inhaler scene. We can only state that Osgood knew which species she belonged to, and treat all self-identifying Osgoods as one identity, which no distinctions made except that there were more than one. "One of the Osgoods..." "Osgood told the Doctor..." "The Osgoods worked together to..."

      They have a shared identity. Why does everybody feel so strongly that she must be separated, when clearly what Osgood wants is to be considered collectively, and as simply Osgood, regardless of her species. Attempting to make divisions where no divisions actually exist in her identity would be akin to trying to shove real-world non-binary people into a binary gender, just because you feel they must be assigned one. It was actually kind of rude for the Doctor to be continually asking her, because why should it matter? She is Osgood.

      Anyway, in the same vein, Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion), who does have a name of her own, would be the same. She'd have her own page, her own history, leading up to her taking the identity of Osgood, at which point she would simply be Osgood, and would be part of the joint history from then on. So Bonnie's infobox picture would be of her in Clara's form, or maybe in Zygon and Clara form. At the end of her biography, she ceases to be Bonnie at all and becomes Osgood. Simple. Her personality is her personality as Bonnie, while she was identifying as such, just like the Sixth Doctor's personality section is that incarnation's personality and not the following Doctor's. She effectively becomes a different person in the same manner.

      Of course, if there weren't three potential individuals melded into one identity, and Bonnie was the only surviving Osgood, Bonnie's page would just have an "As Osgood" section. This is not the case we are dealing with, though, and I believe the solution is clear. Once again: one central Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) (we can't actually say we know her first name at this point, because we don't believe the Doctor on "Basil", and she called him that when he called her "Petronella" at the end of Inversion), and pages as well for Zygon (Osgood), the one who impersonates Osgood and steals her inhaler, and Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion), the one who impersonates Clara and leads the revolution. At one point, those two were separate entities from Osgood, and those pages would cover those lives, as effectively ending when they each become Osgood.

      In timeline format:

      1. Joining UNIT—before Human-Zygon treaty (1 Osgood): There is one Osgood (The Day of the Doctor). She is human and works for UNIT.
      2. Start of Operation DoubleMissy's arrival (1 Osgood + Zygon = 2 Osgoods): Zygon (Osgood) becomes Osgood, and there are two Osgoods.
      3. Missy's murder—Zygon rebellion (2 Osgoods - 1 Osgood): Missy kills one of the Osgoods, and the remaining Osgood does not identify as either human or Zygon specifically, refusing to tell anyone what her species is.
      4. Rebellion steps down—present time (1 Osgood + Bonnie = 2 Osgoods): Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) becomes an Osgood, and there are two Osgoods again, at least one of which is a Zygon. Both of which are Osgood, just like the one who had died.

      Et voilà!

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    • Since any simplification is a win, I would support cutting from four pages to three by uniting the "identity" page with the "human" page. There is a certain appeal in the reasoning that the Zygons functionally become the human Osgood.

      I am, however, a bit worried about the names: the search often provides a drop-down menu with no context. It would be preferable if the page names in this drop-down menu are clear enough for most users to click on the one they search for from the very first attempt. As always, Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) is not problematic. Zygon (Osgood) is a bit worse as it could refer to Bonnie. What I mean is a person not privy to this discussion could think that Bonnie is a Zygon who impersonated Osgood at some point, and the Bonnie page would not show in a search for Osgood (methinks?). Is it possible to add the story name to it in addition to Osgood, e.g., Zygon (Osgood, The Day of the Doctor) or a variation thereof? And now for the Osgood page. Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) might be very confusing, IMHO. The story name could be seen as excluding all the other stories with her. In fact, is there a precedent of using a story name as a disambiguation for a character appearing in more than one story? I'm not sure what the best solution here is. Petronella would surely help. Could we maybe take her word on it? She's not been known to lie as much as the Doctor.

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    • What? I replied... Where's my reply?

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    • Shit! I actually found it, and added some more, but the whole thing disappeared when I hit "reply"! Uhhhh.

      :(

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    • I almost copied the text, too, but didn't! I'll write it again another day—maybe tomorrow. If I try now, I'll get frustrated because it won't be the same. I hate it when I lose things.

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    • Is there any opposition to treating "Petronella" as an unambiguous first name for the human Osgood?

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    • Yes. And I wrote it all out, and lost it. Now's as good a time as any to restart...

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    • Zygon (Osgood) could not feasibly refer to Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) any more than UNIT soldier (The Three Doctors) could refer to Palmer (The Three Doctors) or John Benton, also UNIT soldiers in that story. But UNIT soldier is the unnamed UNIT soldier, and we have names for those other two, and "UNIT soldier" is what we're given in the credits. For Name, all we're given in the credits is "Zygons", played by Aidan Cook and Paul Kasey (those are the actors who played Zygon Osgood, Zygon Kate, etc, whenever they were not in "human" form). Unlike UNIT soldier, though, we cannot simply name her Zygon (The Name of the Doctor) and be on our way—because there are many, many many Zygons in The Name of the Doctor.

      Therefore, we have to go beyond standard disambiguation conventions. (If there's no other way to separate them, we even allow titles like "Mr" and "Mrs" to enter into titles because two people known only by that last name appeared in the same story.) Starting from the name Zygons, given in the credits to include all the "unmasked" Zygons throughout the story, we can only really do:

      1. Zygon (horse)
      2. Zygon (Elizabeth)
      3. Zygon (Osgood)
      4. Zygon (Kate) or Zygon (Kate Stewart)
      5. Zygon (McGillop)
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    • Now, on the topic of Petronella:

      Osgood: What's your first name? Doctor: Basil. (long pause) Osgood: Petronella. Doctor: Let's just, er, stick with what we had. I need to ask you, because it's important, because it might matter. Osgood: What's important? Doctor: Which one are you? Human or Zygon?
      .........
      .........
      Doctor: Zygella? Osgood: Osgood! Doctor: But which one of you— Both Osgoods: Osgood! Osgood: It doesn't matter which of us is which. Osgood: All that matters is that Osgood lives. Osgood: And nothing's going to stop us! Doctor: You're a credit to your species, Petronella Osgood. Osgood: No, Basil. Osgood: We're a credit to both of them.

      The name "Petronella" is only ever used in the same context as "Basil". In order to consider "Petronella" anything other than something she came up with in the moment in response to Basil, we would have to accept Basil as the Doctor's true first name. In the final scene, the Doctor calls her Petronella, and she calls him Basil in return. You don't have to go very far into subtext to realise that the script really wants to get across that she was lying about her first name, and we still don't know that, just like we still don't know which of the original two Osgoods is the one that survived.

      Yes, it would make things easier for us if we accepted Petronella as her true name, but there is simply no basis for that at this time. At the moment, it's only used in Inversion, and it's not clear at all, given the only context in which it was spoken, that this was her real name (in fact the script goes to lengths to make sure we know it's not). However. If a story, maybe a BF adventure, (story, not anything out-of-universe, written not by the writers of the story, but quite possibly by some confused BBC and/or BF employees who just didn't get that whole Petronella thing) uses that as her first name, honestly, unambiguously, then we can discuss this again, and possibly move the page accordingly.

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    • I am forced to concede on both points. I did not realize that "Petronella" is always adjacent to "Basil". And I sure appreciate naming policies explained.

      This, however, does not erase my second concern, the Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) designation. Here is a mental experiment. I want to find the information on the Osgood collective. I type "Osgood" and get several pages. The closest is the above mentioned one. But I know that the collective was not created in The Day of the Doctor, not onscreen anyways. Moreover, I know that Osgood was purely human in this story and became a weird hybrid afterwards. So this The Day of the Doctor designation suggests that this page is NOT about the collective and IS ONLY about the human, which is the opposite of SOTO's suggestion.

      This is why, while waiting on the Petronella leak status, I would still prefer to find some other, unconventional dabbing for "Osgood" that would not suggest anything wrong. How about Osgood (UNIT)? To the best of my understanding, Osgood (The Seeds of Death) did not work for UNIT, but all Osgood hybrids do. Plus, it is inclusive of Extinction, which in Osgood's timeline happens before The Day of the Doctor.

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    • Eh, I see what you're saying. It's the first appearance of the first Osgood, and of the second Osgood, but not the third (originally Bonnie), and it's not the first appearance of this idea of anyone but the human Osgood being really Osgood. "Osgood" as a "hybrid", as said in the script, or a shared identity, began in The Zygon Invasion. I get what you're saying.

      T:DAB and T:ONE NAME say always dab by the name of the story in which the character first appeared. This was the forum we apparently credit to that decision. But exceptions can sometimes be made, in rare cases, by forum discussions. None have been made so far, so what's your reasoning behind an exception being made for this case?

      I can only think of Jack Harkness as a sort-of exception. We don't dab his page even though the original Jack Harkness also has a page, at Jack Harkness (Captain Jack Harkness). Also, if we go with my plan, all the "Zygon (character)" pages will definitely be an exception.

      If we do decide that she deserves an exception because she's multiple individuals and not all debuted in The Day of the Doctor, then I might suggest Osgood (UNIT scientist) instead of simply (UNIT). While we obviously have no conventions for non-story character dabs, the audio story dab is (audio story) rather than (audio), for example.

      "The Osgood collective" is a really cute name for it, by the way!

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Let me try to analyze the three cases of a character present in several stories and dabbed by the first appearance I was pointed at: 1) Nancy (The Empty Child), 2) Jack Harkness and 3) Osgood (The Day of the Doctor). I am going to argue that the standard policy is good for 1) where it has been applied, is bad for 2) where it hasn't been applied (would be Jack Harkness (The Empty Child) otherwise) and is bad for 3) where we should not apply it.

      The criterion of goodness/badness for me is simple: does the disambiguation term itself add ambiguity? If it does, it's bad as it doesn't do its job.

      Why the dab (The Empty Child) is sufficient for 1) even though Nancy also appears in The Doctor Dances? This case is overly simple really. The two episodes are essentially one story, as confirmed by their story numbers (164a and 164b). But let's imagine we uncover some other Ashildr in some forgotten comic. The dab (The Girl Who Died) would still work throughout Season 9, right, despite her changing from human to hybrid? We've seen many transformations that have no effect on the naming, e.g., Rose, Jack, Brig, etc. I conclude that the creation of the Osgood collective by itself should not affect the naming scheme.

      So what would make dabbing by the first appearance bad? What made it bad for Jack and is also happening with Osgood? I think, the presence of another individual with the exact same name: Jack Harkness (Captain Jack Harkness) or both Zygon (Osgood) and Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion). Note that we want to separate the second Jack Harkness but to conjoin the second and third Osgood. The situation is as follows: we have one individual, Ind1, introduced in Story1, and then someone else, Ind2, who has the same Name as Ind1, introduced in Story2. The standard policy prescribes to call them Name (Story1) and Name (Story2). This is what is done with the second Jack Harkness but not the first. (And I think it is extremely confusing because the name of the story just happens to be applicable to both Jack Harknesses as individuals.) But it kinda works (for the second one), at least for someone familiar with the policy.

      But let us imagine a user who has not read all the policies (yes, I'm looking at myself). Imagine someone not knowing the first appearance policy for dabbing. Well, both Jack Harknesses are in Captain Jack Harkness, so which one is the new one? The purpose of the dabbing to separate unambiguously is mildly violated by the dabbing for Ind2 being too inclusive.

      The Osgood case is for me the reverse situation. Here the dabbing for Ind1 is too exclusive: the purpose of dabbing is to include all Osgoods into the article for the human Osgood, whereas the other parts of Osgood did not yet appear in The Day of the Doctor.

      And the second and last point I want to make is that using first appearance story as the dab term is not the best idea if a character appeared in more than one medium (Jack in TV Doctor Who, TV Torchwood and COMIC; Osgood in TV Doctor Who and AUDIO UNIT). It seems to me that doing so would violate at least the spirit of Neutral point of view policy, item 1. All media are equal. To me, this means not only that information from one is equally important as from another, but also that the absence of information from one media should not preclude a user from using the Wikia efficiently. I know I would be very cross if Izzy was disambiguated with Endgame because I saw her in The Company of Friends and have no idea whether she is the same as in Endgame. I feel I should not be made to know all comic stories to be able to disambiguate efficiently. By the same token, I think a person should not be made to watch the New Who TV series to be able to disambiguate Jack or Osgood. Someone who only watches Torchwood or only listens to UNIT audios gets no useful information from (The Empty Child) or (The Day of the Doctor) respectively. For them citing a short description like (time agent) or (UNIT scientist) seems beneficial.

      To sum up,

      • I think the situations when Ind1 and Ind2 have the same Name, Ind1 first appears in Story1 and Ind2 first appears in Story2, where Ind1 also appears --- such situations warrant a discussion whether the standard policy should be used or deviated from. In the case of Jack, it was deviated from.
      • The standard dabbing policy should not be applied to characters appearing in more than one media as per T:NPOV.

      Both situations are likely to be rare and not accidental, so this would probably not affect too many pages/editors.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Keeping it specifically on the context of Osgood, the page title Osgood (UNIT) and variants are off limits because of Tom Osgood going unnamed in his sole televised appearance.

      We might have to resort to out-of-universe sources to take Petronella Osgood as a valid name for the identity, but there is no title that follows all our policies and accounts for the fact one of the three Osgoods was not in TDOTD. I'll respond to each post from the last few days shortly.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Hmmm... I feel bad for Osgood (The Seeds of Death) now. His first name was also given (in a novelisation) as Harry, but his page is not called Harry Osgood, whereas Tom Osgood's is because the name Tom was given in a book. Is there some policy making novelisations of lesser importance than original books? (Still on-topic for Osgood, hopefully.)

      Secondly, this Tom is not a bad guy. He wouldn't want to get in a way. If his first name is kept, I think SOTO's argument from above explains why Osgood is not Tom Osgood. But even if we rename his page to Osgood (Dæmons) or remove his first name mentally, I think they can be nicely distinguished by Osgood (UNIT sergeant) and Osgood (UNIT scientist). Tom Osgood actually appears in the cast as Sgt. Osgood (according to The Dæmons). And his supposed daughter (as per Moffat's implicit intension) is not a sergeant, right?

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • SOTO's reply:

      SOTO wrote: It's not actually a very complicated case: Osgood is an identity. The whole point of her character in the Zygon two-parter is that once both assumed that identity, neither was specifically human and neither was specifically Zygon. If we must put something in the infobox as species, Osgood literally gives us "hybrid" in the script.

      So. Osgood is Osgood, regardless of origins. It is an identity, and it is a character. Prior to TDOTD, that identity belonged to only one individual. So in the history section of the one Osgood page, it would, at first, simply be human Osgood's story. Prior to to the peace treaty Day, "Zygon Osgood", as we seem to be calling her here, did not identify as Osgood. Prior to the end of Inversion, Bonnie did not identify as Osgood.

      Thus, the Osgood Zygon from Day still needs their own page, but their history ends when they actually become Osgood, and Osgood's joint history continues on the Osgood page. The Zygon who mocked Osgood, stole her inhaler, who I believe tried to attack Clara, is not Osgood. That Zygon, though, slightly later on in their history, became Osgood, and at that point it all merges. No duplicate information needed on the Zygon page, because that individual ceased to be that Zygon that was impersonating Osgood, and became one of two Osgoods, each with a different species.

      I have no objections to this, as long as the human and the identity share a page. The identity taken by "Zygon Osgood" and later by Bonnie is the identity initially held by the human.

      SOTO wrote: Let's call that page Zygon (Osgood) for now, because I think some unconventional dabbing for this case is in order. That character is a Zygon, and not actually Osgood; "Osgood" is simply the only identifier we have for that Zygon, because that was the form they took and no other name was revealed. Zygon Kate Stewart should be Zygon (Kate Stewart) as well, Zygon (Elizabeth), Zygon (horse), etc. In normal circumstances, the disambiguation would be the story page, but in this case there are several Zygons from the same story that each need individual pages. (On a slightly off-topic note, I think we should do the same with Slitheen whose actual names we don't know—Slitheen (Human They're Impersonating)

      I think it's a very different case with Zygons than it was with Gangers, who were the people they were copied from, simply not human. These Zygons were simply Zygons who we characterise by the people they pretended to be. If we ever do find out which Osgood is which, which I believe we won't, and we decide to separate them, then they would get Ganger-like treatment, with Osgood as the main name, and, say, (Zygon) and (Bonnie) as disambiguation terms. Though obviously we can point out that immediately after the merge, each knew which they were because Zygon Osgood gave human Osgood her inhaler, unless something new comes up in future, we should not attempt to separate Osgood by her species at any point after the inhaler scene. We can only state that Osgood knew which species she belonged to, and treat all self-identifying Osgoods as one identity, which no distinctions made except that there were more than one. "One of the Osgoods..." "Osgood told the Doctor..." "The Osgoods worked together to..."

      They have a shared identity. Why does everybody feel so strongly that she must be separated, when clearly what Osgood wants is to be considered collectively, and as simply Osgood, regardless of her species. Attempting to make divisions where no divisions actually exist in her identity would be akin to trying to shove real-world non-binary people into a binary gender, just because you feel they must be assigned one. It was actually kind of rude for the Doctor to be continually asking her, because why should it matter? She is Osgood.

      My main issue with this proposal is that there is no reason to parenthesise any of this. While it is true that Zygon Kate Stewart merely took the form of Kate Stewart, we have an existing method in place for characters only known by an alias, namely Template:Retitle.

      SOTO wrote: Anyway, in the same vein, Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion), who does have a name of her own, would be the same. She'd have her own page, her own history, leading up to her taking the identity of Osgood, at which point she would simply be Osgood, and would be part of the joint history from then on. So Bonnie's infobox picture would be of her in Clara's form, or maybe in Zygon and Clara form. At the end of her biography, she ceases to be Bonnie at all and becomes Osgood. Simple. Her personality is her personality as Bonnie, while she was identifying as such, just like the Sixth Doctor's personality section is that incarnation's personality and not the following Doctor's. She effectively becomes a different person in the same manner.

      Of course, if there weren't three potential individuals melded into one identity, and Bonnie was the only surviving Osgood, Bonnie's page would just have an "As Osgood" section. This is not the case we are dealing with, though, and I believe the solution is clear. Once again: one central Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) (we can't actually say we know her first name at this point, because we don't believe the Doctor on "Basil", and she called him that when he called her "Petronella" at the end of Inversion), and pages as well for Zygon (Osgood), the one who impersonates Osgood and steals her inhaler, and Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion), the one who impersonates Clara and leads the revolution. At one point, those two were separate entities from Osgood, and those pages would cover those lives, as effectively ending when they each become Osgood.

      In timeline format:

      1. Joining UNIT—before Human-Zygon treaty (1 Osgood): There is one Osgood (The Day of the Doctor). She is human and works for UNIT.
      2. Start of Operation DoubleMissy's arrival (1 Osgood + Zygon = 2 Osgoods): Zygon (Osgood) becomes Osgood, and there are two Osgoods.
      3. Missy's murder—Zygon rebellion (2 Osgoods - 1 Osgood): Missy kills one of the Osgoods, and the remaining Osgood does not identify as either human or Zygon specifically, refusing to tell anyone what her species is.
      4. Rebellion steps down—present time (1 Osgood + Bonnie = 2 Osgoods): Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) becomes an Osgood, and there are two Osgoods again, at least one of which is a Zygon. Both of which are Osgood, just like the one who had died.

      Ignoring the "Petronella" issue for now, I support the idea of each Osgood having their own page, and of Bonnie's article depicting her in Zygon form.


      Amorkuz's reply:

      Amorkuz wrote: Since any simplification is a win, I would support cutting from four pages to three by uniting the "identity" page with the "human" page. There is a certain appeal in the reasoning that the Zygons functionally become the human Osgood.

      I am, however, a bit worried about the names: the search often provides a drop-down menu with no context. It would be preferable if the page names in this drop-down menu are clear enough for most users to click on the one they search for from the very first attempt. As always, Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) is not problematic. Zygon (Osgood) is a bit worse as it could refer to Bonnie. What I mean is a person not privy to this discussion could think that Bonnie is a Zygon who impersonated Osgood at some point, and the Bonnie page would not show in a search for Osgood (methinks?). Is it possible to add the story name to it in addition to Osgood, e.g., Zygon (Osgood, The Day of the Doctor) or a variation thereof? And now for the Osgood page. Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) might be very confusing, IMHO. The story name could be seen as excluding all the other stories with her. In fact, is there a precedent of using a story name as a disambiguation for a character appearing in more than one story? I'm not sure what the best solution here is. Petronella would surely help. Could we maybe take her word on it? She's not been known to lie as much as the Doctor.

      Our existing disambiguation policy would block Zygon (Osgood), and as stated above in my reply to SOTO, I'm against using character names as disambiguation. Zygon Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) is the logical best option if disambiguation is needed, with only the story's title as disambiguation.

      I do not feel like having TDOTD in the page title excludes all the other stories with her, but in the specific case of Osgood, anything after the inhaler scene wouldn't go on the Zygon's article anyway.


      SOTO's replies:

      SOTO wrote: Zygon (Osgood) could not feasibly refer to Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion) any more than UNIT soldier (The Three Doctors) could refer to Palmer (The Three Doctors) or John Benton, also UNIT soldiers in that story. But UNIT soldier is the unnamed UNIT soldier, and we have names for those other two, and "UNIT soldier" is what we're given in the credits. For Name, all we're given in the credits is "Zygons", played by Aidan Cook and Paul Kasey (those are the actors who played Zygon Osgood, Zygon Kate, etc, whenever they were not in "human" form). Unlike UNIT soldier, though, we cannot simply name her Zygon (The Name of the Doctor) and be on our way—because there are many, many many Zygons in The Name of the Doctor.

      Therefore, we have to go beyond standard disambiguation conventions. (If there's no other way to separate them, we even allow titles like "Mr" and "Mrs" to enter into titles because two people known only by that last name appeared in the same story.) Starting from the name Zygons, given in the credits to include all the "unmasked" Zygons throughout the story, we can only really do: (list of names excluded)

      Because Osgood is such an unusual case, our normal disambiguation rules might need to be bent a bit. Zygon Osgood from Day may or may not need disambiguation.

      I do not see the Zygon situation as similar to honourifics, except for the fact that Zygon (The Day of the Doctor) is off limits. You're using honourifics to explain why disambiguation is needed, but do they have anything to do with Osgood?

      SOTO wrote: The name "Petronella" is only ever used in the same context as "Basil". In order to consider "Petronella" anything other than something she came up with in the moment in response to Basil, we would have to accept Basil as the Doctor's true first name. In the final scene, the Doctor calls her Petronella, and she calls him Basil in return. You don't have to go very far into subtext to realise that the script really wants to get across that she was lying about her first name, and we still don't know that, just like we still don't know which of the original two Osgoods is the one that survived.

      Yes, it would make things easier for us if we accepted Petronella as her true name, but there is simply no basis for that at this time. At the moment, it's only used in Inversion, and it's not clear at all, given the only context in which it was spoken, that this was her real name (in fact the script goes to lengths to make sure we know it's not). However. If a story, maybe a BF adventure, (story, not anything out-of-universe, written not by the writers of the story, but quite possibly by some confused BBC and/or BF employees who just didn't get that whole Petronella thing) uses that as her first name, honestly, unambiguously, then we can discuss this again, and possibly move the page accordingly.

      Both of us have switched our opinions on "Petronella" since Inversion initially aired. The story does go out of its way to avoid confirming "Petronella", but neither did it clearly imply it's not her name. We might want to keep that name out of the article's title, but acknowledge that it might be her first name, similar to characters with names confirmed by a novelisation.


      Amorkuz's reply:

      Amorkuz wrote: This, however, does not erase my second concern, the Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) designation. Here is a mental experiment. I want to find the information on the Osgood collective. I type "Osgood" and get several pages. The closest is the above mentioned one. But I know that the collective was not created in The Day of the Doctor, not onscreen anyways. Moreover, I know that Osgood was purely human in this story and became a weird hybrid afterwards. So this The Day of the Doctor designation suggests that this page is NOT about the collective and IS ONLY about the human, which is the opposite of SOTO's suggestion.

      This is why, while waiting on the Petronella leak status, I would still prefer to find some other, unconventional dabbing for "Osgood" that would not suggest anything wrong. How about Osgood (UNIT)? To the best of my understanding, Osgood (The Seeds of Death) did not work for UNIT, but all Osgood hybrids do. Plus, it is inclusive of Extinction, which in Osgood's timeline happens before The Day of the Doctor.

      Tom Osgood, whose first name is given only in prose, also worked for UNIT. This means that any disambiguation involving UNIT has to account for him as well. Osgood from The Seeds of Death can have his article located at Harry Osgood if the page name Osgood is needed for the collective identity.


      SOTO's reply:

      SOTO wrote: Eh, I see what you're saying. It's the first appearance of the first Osgood, and of the second Osgood, but not the third (originally Bonnie), and it's not the first appearance of this idea of anyone but the human Osgood being really Osgood. "Osgood" as a "hybrid", as said in the script, or a shared identity, began in The Zygon Invasion. I get what you're saying.

      T:DAB and T:ONE NAME say always dab by the name of the story in which the character first appeared. But exceptions can sometimes be made, in rare cases, by forum discussions. None have been made so far, so what's your reasoning behind an exception being made for this case?

      I can only think of Jack Harkness as a sort-of exception. We don't dab his page even though the original Jack Harkness also has a page, at Jack Harkness (Captain Jack Harkness). Also, if we go with my plan, all the "Zygon (character)" pages will definitely be an exception.

      If we do decide that she deserves an exception because she's multiple individuals and not all debuted in The Day of the Doctor, then I might suggest Osgood (UNIT scientist) instead of simply (UNIT). While we obviously have no conventions for non-story character dabs, the audio story dab is (audio story) rather than (audio), for example.

      Outside of Time Lords known as "The (x)" such as the Doctor and the Master, I believe Jack Harkness is the only exception, but the fact exceptions have been made is crucial to this. SOTO, here's a hypothetical: if another character named Martha Jones appears, how would the article of Tenth Doctor companion Martha Jones be titled?

      Also, I will continue to insist on Template:Retitle for characters known only by an alias, as we used in the case of Jack Harkness, but it seems I may be losing that argument.


      Amorkuz's replies:

      Amorkuz wrote: Let me try to analyze the three cases of a character present in several stories and dabbed by the first appearance I was pointed at: 1) Nancy (The Empty Child), 2) Jack Harkness and 3) Osgood (The Day of the Doctor). I am going to argue that the standard policy is good for 1) where it has been applied, is bad for 2) where it hasn't been applied (would be Jack Harkness (The Empty Child) otherwise) and is bad for 3) where we should not apply it.

      The criterion of goodness/badness for me is simple: does the disambiguation term itself add ambiguity? If it does, it's bad as it doesn't do its job.

      Why the dab (The Empty Child) is sufficient for 1) even though Nancy also appears in The Doctor Dances? This case is overly simple really. The two episodes are essentially one story, as confirmed by their story numbers (164a and 164b). But let's imagine we uncover some other Ashildr in some forgotten comic. The dab (The Girl Who Died) would still work throughout Season 9, right, despite her changing from human to hybrid? We've seen many transformations that have no effect on the naming, e.g., Rose, Jack, Brig, etc. I conclude that the creation of the Osgood collective by itself should not affect the naming scheme.

      With Nancy, she appears only in two consecutive episodes widely considered a two-parter, and no other Nancy appears in any story in which she appears. We disambiguate by the first of those episodes merely for consistency.

      Ashildr, if another character by the name exists, would similarly be disambiguated by the first story in which she appears, unless we locate her article at Me instead. We would not locate it at Ashildr (Me) or Me (Ashildr), as there is no reason to make an exception to the disambiguation policy.

      Amorkuz wrote: So what would make dabbing by the first appearance bad? What made it bad for Jack and is also happening with Osgood? I think, the presence of another individual with the exact same name: Jack Harkness (Captain Jack Harkness) or both Zygon (Osgood) and Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion). Note that we want to separate the second Jack Harkness but to conjoin the second and third Osgood. The situation is as follows: we have one individual, Ind1, introduced in Story1, and then someone else, Ind2, who has the same Name as Ind1, introduced in Story2. The standard policy prescribes to call them Name (Story1) and Name (Story2). This is what is done with the second Jack Harkness but not the first. (And I think it is extremely confusing because the name of the story just happens to be applicable to both Jack Harknesses as individuals.) But it kinda works (for the second one), at least for someone familiar with the policy.

      But let us imagine a user who has not read all the policies (yes, I'm looking at myself). Imagine someone not knowing the first appearance policy for dabbing. Well, both Jack Harknesses are in Captain Jack Harkness, so which one is the new one? The purpose of the dabbing to separate unambiguously is mildly violated by the dabbing for Ind2 being too inclusive.

      The Osgood case is for me the reverse situation. Here the dabbing for Ind1 is too exclusive: the purpose of dabbing is to include all Osgoods into the article for the human Osgood, whereas the other parts of Osgood did not yet appear in The Day of the Doctor.

      Osgood (as a collective identity) did not appear until The Zygon Invasion, as when Death in Heaven aired there was no reason to suspect the Osgood in this episode may have been the Zygon. However, Osgood (the human) first appeared in Day, so we can't follow all our policies without making the name too exclusive.

      Amorkuz wrote: And the second and last point I want to make is that using first appearance story as the dab term is not the best idea if a character appeared in more than one medium (Jack in TV Doctor Who, TV Torchwood and COMIC; Osgood in TV Doctor Who and AUDIO UNIT). It seems to me that doing so would violate at least the spirit of Neutral point of view policy, item 1. All media are equal. To me, this means not only that information from one is equally important as from another, but also that the absence of information from one media should not preclude a user from using the Wikia efficiently. I know I would be very cross if Izzy was disambiguated with Endgame because I saw her in The Company of Friends and have no idea whether she is the same as in Endgame. I feel I should not be made to know all comic stories to be able to disambiguate efficiently. By the same token, I think a person should not be made to watch the New Who TV series to be able to disambiguate Jack or Osgood. Someone who only watches Torchwood or only listens to UNIT audios gets no useful information from (The Empty Child) or (The Day of the Doctor) respectively. For them citing a short description like (time agent) or (UNIT scientist) seems beneficial.

      The majority of televised characters have appeared in more than one medium, because of novelisations and other non-televised works. If all media are equal, as you state, then it makes no difference what medium any specific story is in. Would John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang) be an inappropriate title because he later appeared in later unconnected stories? I don't think so.

      Amorkuz wrote: Hmmm... I feel bad for Osgood (The Seeds of Death) now. His first name was also given (in a novelisation) as Harry, but his page is not called Harry Osgood, whereas Tom Osgood's is because the name Tom was given in a book. Is there some policy making novelisations of lesser importance than original books? (Still on-topic for Osgood, hopefully.)

      Secondly, this Tom is not a bad guy. He wouldn't want to get in a way. If his first name is kept, I think SOTO's argument from above explains why Osgood is not Tom Osgood. But even if we rename his page to Osgood (Dæmons) or remove his first name mentally, I think they can be nicely distinguished by Osgood (UNIT sergeant) and Osgood (UNIT scientist). Tom Osgood actually appears in the cast as Sgt. Osgood (according to The Dæmons). And his supposed daughter (as per Moffat's implicit intension) is not a sergeant, right?

      If novelisations are to be treated as equal to other prosaic works, then either the Osgood from The Seeds of Death is at Harry Osgood or the Osgood from The Daemons is at Osgood (The Daemons). Right now, this is not true, so as it currently stands novelisations do not figure into article titles. Oddly, our current policy states novelisations are valid when not contradicted by the original work, but for whatever reason this policy doesn't apply to titles.

      And no, we are not expecting our readers to know the Osgood from The Daemons was a sergeant, which sort of disqualifies Osgood (UNIT scientist) as a title because it relies on that information.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Somehow I didn't get a notification for these updates.

      Bwburke94 wrote: We might have to resort to out-of-universe sources to take Petronella Osgood as a valid name for the identity

      No. (T:VS)

      Bwburke94 wrote: I have no objections to this, as long as the human and the identity share a page. The identity taken by "Zygon Osgood" and later by Bonnie is the identity initially held by the human.

      Yes. (T:LOGIC)

      Bwburke94 wrote: My main issue with this proposal is that there is no reason to parenthesise any of this. While it is true that Zygon Kate Stewart merely took the form of Kate Stewart, we have an existing method in place for characters only known by an alias, namely Template:Retitle.

      I don't know what you mean by this. All {{retitle}} changes is the h1, or the heading at the top of the page. What we're talking about here is the PAGENAME, which needs to follow T:NAMING, T:DAB, etc. "Zygon Kate Stewart", as you call them, is not Kate Stewart, and did not even identify as such. That Zygon took Kate's form. Kate Stewart was not really their alias at any point. They were simply playing the part. "I get so into character". This is a very, very different case to Jack Harkness. Jack Harkness is not at all his birth name, but it is his identity. He keeps that name for thousands of years after adopting it, and refers to himself as Jack and nothing else. This Zygon pretended to be Kate for a while, but is not Kate.

      Furthermore, "Zygon [Name]" is not something found in the script, and there is zero precedent for that sort of naming elsewhere on the wiki. T:DAB specifies that when a page needs disambiguation—when there are two or more pages with similar names—we use dab terms to distinguish them. Dumping related words together has no precedence in T:CHAR NAMES. In fact, we are told to use the name given in the credits. The name in the credits of Day etc is "Zygons". In a typical case, that character would be Zygon (The Day of the Doctor). However, there are several Zygons in The Day of the Doctor. So, Zygon (Kate Stewart) is the only valid other way to disambiguate in this case. Again, the only name we have for this character is "Zygon". We do not know their name.

      "Zygon [Name]" is not, and never was, an option. For clones and duplicates of an original, we tend to name them Martha Jones (clone), Mickey Smith (Auton), Jennifer Lucas (Ganger). Those people are derived from the originals, and exist as a result. Jennifer Lucas the Ganger is Jennifer Lucas. Zygons are not the same. They put on the appearance of others, much like a Slitheen puts on a body suit, but does not become that person.

      Disambiguation is not an option you can dislike. Disambiguation is a requirement when two pages have similar names, not something to be avoided.

      Bwburke94 wrote: SOTO, here's a hypothetical: if another character named Martha Jones appears, how would the article of Tenth Doctor companion Martha Jones be titled?

      Martha Jones (Made of Steel). Policy is policy. When we decided that characters will be disambiguated by their first story, we had these cases in mind as well. Not all recurring characters have unique enough names to not require dabbing. John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang), I'm pretty sure, has way more screentime than John Hart (The Sea Devils), and plays a major role in the context of an entire series of Torchwood. He is not by any means a "primary topic", though. I cannot speak for whoever decided to keep Jack Harkness as Jack Harkness once we met the originator of the name, but I assume it was because that would be like calling the Doctor The Doctor (An Unearthly Child). It takes a lot to gain "primary topic" status. Martha Jones is only a primary topic in the sense that her duplicatesMartha Jones (clone) and Martha Jones (robot)—are disambiguated and she is not, because she is the original. Same as Victoria is the Queen, and not the disambiguation page. TARDIS is a main topic, and would not get disambiguation. If there was a main Gallifrey, the planet of the Time Lords would remain Gallifrey.

      I am considering Osgood as a potential exception to this rule not because she is a central character and dabbing would be "confusing", but because not all Osgoods actually originated in that story. The rule, as it currently stands, it to disambiguate by first story. The amount of stories or media a character is in does not change that. If either of you want to challenge the policy of T:DAB, feel free to start a new forum thread to do so. The topic of this thread, however, is Osgood. According to policy, she should get (The Day of the Doctor) dabbing. However, she might (might) be an exception of some sort to the rule, because not all Osgoods originated then. However, I'm starting to think she isn't an exception at all. Osgood did originate in The Day of the Doctor. Yes, other people joined that identity, but her first story was still Day. It'd be hard to debate that without a time machine to change the facts themselves.

      Bwburke94 wrote: With Nancy, she appears only in two consecutive episodes widely considered a two-parter, and no other Nancy appears in any story in which she appears. We disambiguate by the first of those episodes merely for consistency.

      Ashildr, if another character by the name exists, would similarly be disambiguated by the first story in which she appears, unless we locate her article at Me instead. We would not locate it at Ashildr (Me) or Me (Ashildr), as there is no reason to make an exception to the disambiguation policy.

      To reiterate, that is how the policy goes. Exceptions to any policy are not everyday occurrences. It's not "let's follow the policy when convenient". It's "let's follow policy, period." Except in very specific and very rare circumstances where these conventions could not work. It's not a matter of merely choosing to be "consistent". And we do not give preferential treatment to characters which have appeared in a lot of stories, or are more well known:

      "Note, though, that this is a very different organising principle to that which you'll find on other wikis, like Wikipedia. There, the notion is that relative popularity determines which page goes without a dab term. If we were set up like Wikipedia, Castrovalva would lead to the TV story, because it is by far the thing most people associate with the term "Castrovalva".
      "But our system isn't like that. We consistently choose to prioritise on the in-universe/out-of-universe metric, giving no weight at all to most linked to /least linked to, or most searched for/least searched for."
      -T:DAB

      We don't only follow T:DAB when a character only appears in a small amount of stories. Unless something is by an enormous margin a primary topic..it gets dabbed when there's another thing by the same name.

      Ashildr would definitely be Ashildr (The Girl Who Died). Not Me because a) that's a personal pronoun b) the Doctor reiterates on multiple occasions that that is her name. Me (The Girl Who Died) is a perfectly valid redirect, though.

      Bwburke94 wrote: Osgood (as a collective identity) did not appear until The Zygon Invasion, as when Death in Heaven aired there was no reason to suspect the Osgood in this episode may have been the Zygon. However, Osgood (the human) first appeared in Day, so we can't follow all our policies without making the name too exclusive.

      An interesting take. "Too exclusive". Yes, interesting.

      Bwburke94 wrote: Right now, this is not true, so as it currently stands novelisations do not figure into article titles. Oddly, our current policy states novelisations are valid when not contradicted by the original work, but for whatever reason this policy doesn't apply to titles.

      This is actually not so. Novelisations do count for titles. Sometimes, we simply miss out on things. If a first name, or a more specific name, is given in a novelisation, we use that as the primary title of the character's page. Pages where this has not been carried out in no way signify policy; they simply got through the cracks. There is currently a {{speedy rename}} on Osgood (The Seeds of Death), and it will be Harry Osgood as soon as I get around to carrying it out. Novelisations are not in any way invalid, but they are trumped by the TV story from which they originated; same with any other adaptations, in audio for example (unless the adaptation is only loose and essentially its own story, as with Dalek and Human Nature/The Family of Blood. The original is pretty much always deemed most reputable in the case of narrative contradictions.

      Finally:

      Amorkuz wrote: The standard dabbing policy should not be applied to characters appearing in more than one media as per T:NPOV.

      Strongly disagree. Most recurring characters appear in more than one medium, as has been pointed out. The policy is the policy right now, which you are bound to. Again, feel free to start a new forum discussion on this. But, in my view certainly, it is not a violation of medium neutrality to allow for the first appearance of a character to be considered their first appearance. Martha Jones, dabbed, would be Martha Jones (Made of Steel), despite this not being popularly known. A first appearance is a first appearance, and the community decided, long ago, that we disambiguate character pages by their first appearance, regardless of whether or not that story is popularly known.

      Characters are named according to the story (or episode) they first appeared in, even if they appear in subsequent stories for which they are arguably more famous.
      -T:DAB
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    • I had my hopes up for the soon to be Harry Osgood. Because this may solve our conundrum. Why can't we use

      Benefit: we have trouble finding a good dab term for our Osgoods.

      Violates the policy? Let me try to argue that it does not. T:DAB states: Common English names and titles are retained for use as a disambiguation page. I would argue that Osgood is not a common name. We've had three of those in 50+ years (and two of them are likely to be related). Moreover, while SOTO is right that compared to Jack Harkness, Osgood is far from being a primary topic. But it seems to me that the definition of "primary topic" in the policy is actually relative rather than absolute: Although a term may potentially refer to more than one topic, it sometimes is the case that one of these topics is far more likely to be the one a reader is searching for when searching in the Search box. If there is such a topic, then it is known as the primary topic for that term. I think that readers are more likely to search for our Osgood than for Tom Osgood or Harry Osgood or Osgood's sister (no disrespect to Tom and Harry). People are unlikely to search for Osgood's box using just Osgood. So I would deem Osgood to be a primary topic relative to the usage of Osgood, which allows to reserve the Osgood page for the character rather than the disambiguation page.

      I hope that we can at least agree on the first five of these names, which would only leave one to discuss.

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    • Update: Just found out that The Silver Turk's official script (though not words spoken out loud) uses language like puppet Mary for duplicates. So I guess there is somewhat of a precedent for that sort of naming (Zygon Kate Stewart), though still not an in-universe one, and this particular source certainly does not use it.

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    • The line about future-proofing "common...names" does not mean that we don't still need to disambiguate other names which are used multiple times. According to policy, Osgood should be a dab page, because there are at least three other "Osgoods". To go against that and use Osgood for the UNIT scientist would be to call her a "primary topic". Usually, the existence of other pages by that name depends on that primary topic. Rose, the flower, is a primary topic. (Nope, rose's since been moved...)

      Anyway, Osgood: are you sure users would be "far more likely" to be searching for her? Let's not pretend that TV stories, or recent stories, are somehow more important in the game of disambiguation.

      I really wish we could just use Osgood, because it looks nice and, from a certain perspective, The Day of the Doctor isn't the first story of all the Osgoods which that page would cover. It is still unquestionably Osgood's first appearance, though, in general. Though not in need of dabbing, Rassilon's first appearance is in COMIC: Star Death—even if his later incarnations didn't originate then, and he might be "known" for his three appearances on television. In the end, Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) isn't really wrong, in my opinion at least.

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    • I'm not gonna miss this chance of promoting women in science, even fictional women in fictional science. So here go the reasons why users are, indeed, far more likely to be searching for her, listed from downright silly to serious:

      1. There are only two other Osgoods: Tom and Harry. There are three of this Osgood. Thus, people are 50% more likely to search for her. (Just in case, this was the downright silly one.)
      2. Harry and Tom Osgood appeared in 1 and 5 stories respectively (I do not count a novelisation to be an independent story). That's 6 stories between the two of them. Our Osgood has already appeared in 8 stories, will definitely appear in 4 more stories by May 2016 and most probably in 8 further stories by May 2017. So it's gonna be twice the competition in half a year, and in 1,5 years it will be 20 : 6, more than triple the competition. (And while recent stories are not an indication, the continued recurrence is, I think: with every new story people are going to search for her again, some hopefully with the intent to edit.)
      3. Our Osgood has her own fan base. I don't want to list here links upon links about fans identifying with her, fans mad at Moffat for killing her and, hence, disrespecting them, Moffat defending himself. I'll only cite one comment from Kasterborous about the release of the UNIT audios: "Fans of Osgood will be delighted to hear that bowtie-clad scientist portrayed by the fabulous Ingrid Oliver will be teaming up with Jemma Redgrave (Kate Stewart) for the Big Finish UNIT spin-off." I have no evidence that either Tom or Harry Osgood have their own fans. I'll be happy to be corrected.
      4. Finally, and most importantly, I think any character who gets his/her own spin-off should be considered a primary topic: The Doctor, Jack Harkness, Henry Gordon Jago, George Litefoot, etc. So, since Kate Stewart and Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) have their audio spin-off, an ongoing spin-off extending at least to May 2017, this, in my mind, is a formal reason to consider both of them primary topics.
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    • SOTO
      SOTO removed this reply because:
      test
      21:13, December 30, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • In an unrelated thread, CzechOut raised a relevant issue: the search on the Wikia (including during editing) only shows 6 hits. This might be the origin of the Name (Auton) scheme rather than Auton Name. It's one thing to type (start typing) John Smith and then choose among the few types of duplicates. It's a different thing altogether to have various main articles on Zygon after typing Zygon and then hope that the number of Johns impersonated by Zygons is below 6 so that you at least get your link after typing Zygon John.

      In short, it appears that usability-wise, it is beneficial to have names that become unique as early as possible. Thus, starting names with a generic term has its downsides.

      In light of this, I am voting for Osgood (Zygon) rather than Zygon Osgood.

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    • Cooliosa. That would be convention, after all. There is in fact zero precedent for "Zygon [Name]" pages.

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    • Regarding "Petronella", I believe there's no way to determine whether it's truly her name relying solely on in-universe events.

      What happened in-universe was that the Doctor claimed his name was Basil, and Osgood claimed her name was Petronella. Any indication of sarcasm is solely out-of-universe, because it relies on the out-of-universe viewers interpreting as such. We can't say from the in-universe evidence which statements were true and which were false, so we can't outright say whether Osgood's first name is Petronella.

      I'll be making a new thread shortly on the Petronella thing, because it's distracting from the actual debate.

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    • Surely we would not say Basil is the Doctor's name, though? We know that's a secret he would not reveal, so it can be deduced that Basil is not the Doctor's real name. If Basil is not the Doctor's real name, and Petronella is only ever used in the same context as Basil, then we cannot say Petronella is Osgood's first name.

      I'm not suggesting saying in the article that she lied, because it's not explicitly revealed in the script. But we mention that she claimed it was her name, and do not consider that to be her true name at all.

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    • SOTO wrote: Surely we would not say Basil is the Doctor's name, though? We know that's a secret he would not reveal, so it can be deduced that Basil is not the Doctor's real name. If Basil is not the Doctor's real name, and Petronella is only ever used in the same context as Basil, then we cannot say Petronella is Osgood's first name.

      I'm not suggesting saying in the article that she lied, because it's not explicitly revealed in the script. But we mention that she claimed it was her name, and do not consider that to be her true name at all.

      This is pretty much what I'm trying to say. Barring out-of-universe evidence and a policy change to allow such information, we cannot say for certain that "Petronella" is her first name.

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    • I agree with both Bwburke94 and SOTO. I think both their positions can be implemented. Their two positions seem to be:

      1. We are not (cannot be) sure whether Petronella IS her name;
      2. Petronella is NOT her name.

      But in either case Petronella should not be used in the page name.

      And, if this decision is made, then SOTO's suggestion to stick to the facts is ideal. No one can argue that (1) she said her name was Petronella (I would use "said" instead of "claimed" as more neutral). It can be also said that (2) the Doctor called her Petronella after this (once?) and that (3) no one else has been known to call her Petronella. Here (1) and (2) are just facts, and (3) records the hesitation whether it is her real name by using in-universe information. (3) can be strengthened by Osgood's words from Extinction that everyone calls her Osgood (I cite from memory). So it can even be claimed that no one in UNIT addresses her by first name.

      Also the in-universe/out-of-universe angle suggests putting any discussion over whether it is her actual name in the Behind-the-Scenes section, as this discussion indeed did not happen in-universe. This is how it was done, for instance, in Polly Wright.

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    • Agreed, in full.

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    • I agree that Petronella should not be used unless future in-universe evidence comes to light showing she was telling the truth. With BF's UNIT series, that may stand a chance of happening, but until then, no.

      Amorkuz wrote: Hmmm... I feel bad for Osgood (The Seeds of Death) now. His first name was also given (in a novelisation) as Harry, but his page is not called Harry Osgood, whereas Tom Osgood's is because the name Tom was given in a book. Is there some policy making novelisations of lesser importance than original books? (Still on-topic for Osgood, hopefully.)

      The opposite, actually. According to T:IU:

      4.All narratives, regardless of medium, have equal weight. Whether it's a comic strip, audio, novel or television story, it's all equally valid here.

      I'm not sure how that would work with contradicting stories, but a look at the page in question doesn't list any other stories stating his first name was something different (and a couple days after your post, someone moved the page to Harry Osgood anyway).

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    • It's about time we start deciding this based on fact. I would not say Petronella is her true name or a fake name until she returns again. I would however, change the article name to simply Osgood, because Tom Osgood, with whom she might be confused to first time users, has a first name and so it can be written as "Tom Osgood"

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    • Multiple topics have the name Osgood. Simply because most or all have first names as well does not mean T:DAB allows us to put her at Osgood which should be and remain a disambiguation page. She is not a primary topic by any means. And it wouldn't exactly be future-proof—what's to say another Osgood doesn't come around whose first name we don't have?

      No, the fact of the matter is, her article, or joint article, would be housed at Osgood (The Day of the Doctor).

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    • Yes but it's the "(Day of the Doctor)" part that really bugs me, she's not just a part of Day of the Doctor anymore, she became something bigger, even if it was for only two episodes in series 9. I'm not saying move the information about her to a new article, I'm suggesting that we consider changing the name to simply, "Osgood."

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    • T:DAB and T:CHAR NAMES state that we give character articles a disambiguation term based on the first story they appeared in. Plenty of those dabbed characters appeared in later stories as well, and perhaps their first story is not that which they're best known for. But it's still their first story, and the first story is what goes in the title.

      Again, Osgood is not a primary topic like Elizabeth, the Doctor, regeneration or TARDIS. Other Osgoods are not all derived from her. She shares a common name with other people, so she gets dabbed.

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    • Not EVERY Osgood is derived from her but TWO Osgood's are.

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    • I hate to see this topic forgotten and buried. To keep the topic going, here is a funny tidbit I found quite by accident (especially given that there were some subtle pro-Petronella edits recently).

      I know that everyone agrees at least that Basil should not be taken seriously. But here is an article too amusing/suspiciously coincidental not to mention it: Will it be Dr Basil? from The Sun, March 22, 1988 [1]. The article purports that John Cleese was considered for the role of the Doctor for a Doctor Who movie. I did not really fact check whether he really was (also it was posted well before having a chance to be a plant). But might I remind that the wife of Basil Fawlty was played by... a Prunella Scales? I am far from being the first on picking up the Fawlty vibe in Basil. But I have not yet seen Cleese connected to Doctor Who so directly. And Petronella is another rare P-nella name...

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    • OttselSpy25 wrote: Now there's three of them. I'm convinced that Moffat just wants to troll wikia editors.

      Similar to how Cornell trolls Whovians with The Infinity Doctors.

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    • The names I think would obey policy and provide the least amount of confusion are:

      All character histories would cover everything up to their joining the Osgood collective.


      As for Petronella, until confirmation or deconfirmation it should not be reflected in pagenames, and mentioned as a possible first name in the pages themselves.

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    • Or, you know, just have them all in one page, Osgood. Remember that the Zygon was also introduced in the same story.

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    • So yeah, this conversation kinda died. This is a subject that really does need to be resolved, I think.

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    • Here's a quick recap of the questions.


      • 1. Is human Osgood's full name Petronella Osgood?
      My position on this is that we cannot confirm either way from in-universe evidence, while SOTO's position is that her name is not Petronella. This reminds me of the Tribe of Gum discussion from 2013, but this one doesn't need to be resolved immediately because either way we aren't using Petronella as her first name.
      • 2. How should we deal with Osgood the collective identity as compared to Osgood the human?
      In other words, do the identity and the human share a page or not? I propose Osgood collective as a name for the identity if necessary, but we're not to the point of discussing that yet.
      • 3. If the identity and the human share a page, how should it be disambiguated?
      There have been arguments that Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) is not the best name if the page is about the identity, because the identity did not debut until The Zygon Invasion from an out-of-universe perspective.
      • 4. How do we disambiguate the Zygon Osgood from Day?
      Both Zygon Osgood and Zygon (Osgood) have their supporters, and that's not even taking Bonnie into account.
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    • I also believe that it is better to finally make a decision than to wait for a perfect consensus on a perfect decision. It would be good to have the Osgoods sorted out before the second UNIT audio box featuring one of them is released in June.

      1. Osgood's First Name. I agree with Bwburke94 that this point should be removed from discussion. Our disagreements do no affect editing either way.

      3. Disambiguation if human and identity share a page. If it is decided that they share a page, then the disambiguation would apply to both, not only to the identity. The earliest story where either human or identity appeared is The Day of the Doctor, so I don't believe Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) would be really problematic in this case.

      4. Name for the Zygon Osgoods sisters. There is no need to take Bonnie into account. She creates no additional trouble. As for the name for the first Zygon Osgood, there were three versions: Zygon Osgood, Zygon (Osgood) and Osgood (Zygon).

      I think everyone said their piece and argued it exhaustively. The discussion faded naturally when there was nothing new to say. There is no new information and will not likely to be in the near future: UNIT audios are set before The Day of the Doctor.

      If I may make a proposal: can we just vote on this? After trying to narrow down the questions to be voted on, for instance to 2. and 4.? If necessary, each side could summarize the arguments for each variant being voted on.

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    • Amorkuz wrote: So here go the reasons why users are, indeed, far more likely to be searching for her, listed from downright silly to serious:

      Tardis:Neutral point of view addresses this, as does the long discussion regarding Brian Williams (see Talk:Brian Williams (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)/Archive 1).

      Ugh, there are so many things going on here, including the fact that the Seeds of Death Osgood's page was moved by a non-admin. I haven't seen any of the stories regarding this whole mess, so my suggestion, speaking as an admin, is that you apply to one of our long-term admins, experienced in interpreting page name and dab rules, specifically Tangerineduel or CzechOut. Merely voting isn't enough if the consensus that wins violates our rules.

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    • Shambala108 wrote:

      Amorkuz wrote: So here go the reasons why users are, indeed, far more likely to be searching for her, listed from downright silly to serious:

      Tardis:Neutral point of view addresses this, as does the long discussion regarding Brian Williams (see Talk:Brian Williams (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)/Archive 1).

      Merely voting isn't enough if the consensus that wins violates our rules.

      Before this gets completely out of hand, I would like to point out that I proposed voting on the items 2. and 4. outlined by Bwburke94 three posts prior rather than on something I mentioned months ago. As much I appreciate an admin's reply to my message from last year, I believe dwelling in the past will not help us resolve the Osgood case.

      Having said that, I believe that the idea of bringing in the cavalry is not without its merits. Given that an admin suggested it, I will bother them with a request to help resolve this conundrum. If any of the options we have been discussing go against the rules, it would be quite helpful to learn about it and concentrate on those options that are viable.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote:

      • 1. Is human Osgood's full name Petronella Osgood?

      I'm not exactly sure how this could be a point of contention. The point of the two Osgoods was to be completely indistinguishable from the other. So why would one of them take on a name that was different from the original? It would kind of defeat the entire purpose. Although I think logic dictates that this is obviously her human name, if you really feel you need to confirm it, her first name might be said at some point in the UNIT: Extinction audio drama.

      As for how we should handle the three separate Osgood characters, I personally think the best thing to do would be to treat this matter from an in-universe perspective. From each Osgood's point-of-view, both of them are the real thing. So why not have the article reflect this attitude and have both characters share the same article? That way would could truly represent the spirit of these two characters and also save ourselves a huge headache by trying to determine how to make another article for another character who may or may not be the same character at various different points in the show.

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    • Nahald wrote:

      Bwburke94 wrote:

      • 1. Is human Osgood's full name Petronella Osgood?

      Although I think logic dictates that this is obviously her human name, if you really feel you need to confirm it, her first name might be said at some point in the Extinction audio drama.

      Fact checking. "Petronella" was never mentioned in any capacity in Extinction. I was listening to the audios while this discussion was active hoping for the same thing. Vice versa, at some point Osgood is asked in the audio how she should be addressed and she answers "Osgood" and comments that everyone calls her that.

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    • Looking through this discussion, I tried to think to what other articles do we have on the wiki that also have a complicated identity and identifying elements to it.

      I ended up with the Master. Whose incarnations are complicated.

      In the Master we have a long and complicated individual summarised and linked on one single page.

      Merge all of the pages into one single Osgood page, we can detail all of Osgood's history and different 'personas' under different subheadings.

      Bonnie is the only potential outlier, being a confirmed 'not-Osgood' and then becoming an Osgood. I would suggest leaving her as her own page, covering it on the Osgood merged page but having a 'main article' link off to it.

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    • The Zygon Osgood from Day has several scenes in which it is clearly identifiable as the Zygon.

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    • Nahald wrote:

      Bwburke94 wrote:

      • 1. Is human Osgood's full name Petronella Osgood?

      Although I think logic dictates that this is obviously her human name...

      At first I thought so too, but I was converted to the belief that Petronella is not the name of the human Osgood. She gave it only in response to the Doctor giving his name as Basil. She clearly did not believe him. (Neither do we, right?) So it was quite natural for her to come up with a reciprocally fake name. It was noted by SOTO that every mention of Petronella is adjacent to a mention of Basil and the tone is sometimes quite sarcastic. For instance, when the Doctor addresses her as Petronella, she responds addressing him as Basil with a very sarcastic emphasis on it. (And he then suggests never to use these names again.)

      Perhaps, Big Finish will take mercy on us and include an explicit discussion of her first name into the second UNIT box set. Until then, I believe her first name to be unknown and, hence, Petronella should not be used in page names or infoboxes.

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    • I acknowledge that we have no proof that "Petronella" is her first name, but we also have no proof to say it isn't.

      Because the status of "Petronella" doesn't affect any non-behind-the-scenes section, it is secondary to the discussion of what to do with the actual pages. Shouldn't we be discussing the actual issues here?

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    • I agree. Nahald deserved to know the reason why we have no proof Petronella is her name. Now that this idea is back off the table, let us return to the questions at hand:

      2. How should we deal with Osgood the collective identity as compared to Osgood the human?

      Here I agree with Tangerineduel. Osgood is a complex identity/function assumed by various individuals. All these individuals become indistinguishable while wearing this identity: we cannot tell them apart and they self-identify as indistinguishable. Thus, I still believe the human Osgood should be on the same page as Osgood collective with sections separating various periods of Osgood's life (e.g., human-only, human vs. Zygon, human plus Zygon, alone again, Osgood plus Bonnie Osgood, but this can be determined later and separately).

      Here is another analogy in support of this course of actions: Dalek Emperor. It is very clear that this function was held by various individual Daleks/Kaleds. Moreover, Davros moved from his personality to being the Emperor and then back. All the various Emperors are collected on one page, and Davros has his own separate page. This suggests having one page for Osgood (human + collective), one page for Osgood (Zygon) from the Day of the Doctor and one page for Bonnie.

      4. How do we disambiguate the Zygon Osgood from Day?

      Due to the note from CzechOut that using Zygon at the beginning of the name limits the functionality of search box and search suggestions, I prefer Osgood (Zygon) for the description of the Zygon who took Osgood's body before the moment it assumed her personality too.

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    • I'm inclined to prefer to have all three pages merged, but absolutely consider Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) as a kind of collective persona page for both Osgoods from the start of Zygon Invasion (and at if not all of Bonnie's history, then at least from after she becomes an Osgood). Particularly considering this bit from the video Bonnie finds in The Zygon Inversion:

      Osgood 1: Hello, if you are watching this, I have been captured and interrogated.
      Osgood 2: During the interrogation, I have revealed to you the existence of the Osgood Box.
      One of the Osgoods: (off camera, difficult to determine who's saying it) I have revealed its location and the combination to open its safe, and guess what?
      Both Osgoods: I lied.
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    • To answer Bwburke94's third point, "If the identity and the human share a page, how should it be disambiguated?" I see no issue with calling the page that covers both topics Osgood (The Day of the Doctor), as even though the collective identity didn't exist prior to The Zygon Invasion, both of the original two Osgoods debuted in The Day of the Doctor.

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    • And, crucially, the character of Osgood still debuted in The Day of the Doctor. Further "incarnations" may have come afterwards, the idea of multiple Osgoods all being (authentically) Osgood may have come from a later story, but Osgood still debuted in Day. I agree that there should be no issue with this choice of disambiguation.

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    • Shambala108
      Shambala108 removed this reply because:
      02:23, May 15, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Big news. The powers that Briggs finally took pity on us. It has been confirmed...

      Spoilers! But I can't...

      <Removed by admin per Tardis:Spoiler policy> This means that in this spoiler-free thread there is no point anymore to debate the suitability of the dab terms based on the story name: whether "(The Day of the Doctor)" is a good dab term will have been moot, come November.

      Thus, it only remains to come to a consensus on two things: where to put the "Zygon" in Zygon Osgood and whether to put the Collective on the page of the human Osgood or separately, right? Let's try to reach a consensus on that by November, shall we?

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    • No Petronella in Shutdown. But Nick Briggs called Osgood Petronella in a podcast of 27 June 2016 (at the very end). So that's not spoilery. That's from the horse's mouth.

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    • Just pointing out that a podcast is not a valid source for in universe pages.

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    • Yes, this is true.

      However, this is a kind of a unique situation. There was a valid in-universe source (in the ZIs) for "Petronella", which we chose not to believe. It feels like since then the production team of DW has been trying to persuade us that they really meant it. First they put the name in the promotional materials, first I think on Big Finish. We dismissed it as a clueless technician's mistake. Then BBC did the same. We dismissed it as a copycat. Now Nick Briggs himself seems to be saying: "End this charade already, she's Petronella, deal with it."

      I mean we can prolong it till November, when almost certainly a second and independent in-universe confirmation will materialise. Or we can change it now based on the in-universe evidence from the TV series.

      Think of it. What's the worst that can happen? Let's say, Nick Briggs is toying with us and there is an extremely clever twist that he's setting up. Just imagine. Should we not indulge him? Should we not allow him this one small victory? After all he's done for us. It seems like a win-win: 95% chance that we will be right in renaming the page and 5% chance that we make a good man happy.

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    • "Petronella" is an unusual case, because the name was stated in-universe, yet we made an out-of-universe judgement that there wasn't enough evidence. The main difference between this and "Basil" is that there were clearer in-universe hints "Basil" was an alias, and we have an Aliases of the Doctor page anyway to cover "Basil".

      Disregarding the supposed confirmation we can't talk about per T:SPOIL (even though everyone in this discussion knows what it is), there are two ways we can title the page as "Petronella Osgood":

      1. We allow an out-of-universe source to determine her name.
      2. We treat Inversion as the in-universe source to determine her name, and note in the behind-the-scenes section that Inversion alone does not 100% confirm this as her name.

      Option #2 seems like the more reasonable option if we are to rename the page.

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    • First, two apologies: sorry, I did not realise that posting bare links to a website with spoilers is also a violation of T:SPOIL. Secondly, Bwburke94 is right to call it a "supposed confirmation". This criticism is also justified.

      As for his two suggestions, I think Option #1 is a bad idea. It would create a precedent and could lead to a total chaos if out-of-universe sources, be it interviews, podcasts or cast lists, are allowed to determine names of characters. (I feel like cast lists is actually a tricky issue, the discussion of which would take us off topic. Suffice it to say that cast lists have been used to hide the real identity of a character on multiple occasions, as early as The Rescue.) For comparison, even using names from novelisations causes considerable headache. Though I cannot claim that I fully understand the rules, I'm pretty sure there are situations when the name from the novelisation is not allowed in the page name.

      But Option #2, on the other hand, seems very reasonable to me. Inversion is an in-universe source. The question is in its interpretation.

      I think the real question is this: Do most of us, at this point in time, believe that her name is Petronella, as stated in-universe? We didn't believe it some time ago. I have changed my opinion since then. Perhaps, others have too. Why we changed our opinion is immaterial. We exercise our power of opinion every time the First Doctor mispronounces Ian's last name. We can believe that Ian also has that other name or choose to treat it as a production error. We make this judgement based on many factors, not all of them in-universe.

      Perhaps, the question to ask is: does someone still believe that Petronella is not her name? If so, then the safest thing is to wait till November.

      However, if it is pure caution that stops us from changing the name, then there are rules on the books suggesting we should still move forward with the change.

      • The most immediate example is comic books. It is expressly acknowledged in T:SPOIL that it is unreasonable to wait six months until the release of the last issue before editing a multi-issue comic book, just on the off-chance some things may change in later issues. Again, it boils down to our judgement: do we think it is likely to change or not. No one could see the big reveal in Issue #5 of Weapons of Past Destruction coming. That required a page renaming and a complete recategorisation. But I don't think that creating that page before the big reveal was a mistake.
      • Another example where using imperfect information (in that case, about spelling) was preferred to waiting was in CzechOut's reply on Thread:194337: "I'd rather have editors being bold and taking a shot at the spelling" and later "It's probably a bad idea to create a template which allows people to doubt themselves so much that they are too paralysed to start relatively minor articles". The way I interpret these replies is: if information is available but not 100% certain, it is better to act on it now than wait for the 100% certainty that may or may not happen in the future. (After all, 100% certainty is still in the eyes of the beholder.)

      To summarise, unless someone objects, it seems reasonable to me to go ahead with the renaming of "Osgood (The Day of the Doctor)" into "Petronella Osgood".

      Wait, I just remembered something. Ah, why do I always undermine myself? To be continued...

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    • New information. I just remembered and relistened.

      Power Cell, starting around 3:30: "Super brain". That's what we used to call you at college, remember? Plain Jane "Super Brain". (I think Jeff says it about Osgood. But whether it is Jeff or Jay doesn't matter as both are her collegemates.)

      It's such a throw-away line, I almost forgot. I also thought at first that it was about her sister. But, upon relistening, I'm starting to believe that this was her nickname in college. Which would suggest that her name is Jane? Or is this just a Plain Jane reference?

      Thoughts?

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    • The pro-Petronella side would say that "Jane" was part of the nickname solely for the sake of the rhyme, so "Jane" has even less of a case than "Petronella" does. At least with "Petronella", Osgood herself stated it was her name, even if she may have been lying.

      Also, for non-comic readers, what was the reveal in Weapons of Past Destruction?

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    • Amorkuz wrote: To summarise, unless someone objects, it seems reasonable to me to go ahead with the renaming of "Osgood (The Day of the Doctor)" into "Petronella Osgood".

      I would like to put an end to this kind of statement on this wiki: "unless someone objects". Too many users take the lack of objection as a go-ahead, when it may just be no one has all the information they want.

      But to make it clear, I do object. We have no new information aside from some hints of future closure. There is no rush to make a decision here; long-time users will recall how long it took us to come to a proper conclusion on what to do with Clara Oswald and her various parts or whether Missy was really the Master.

      This is a messy enough issue that it will take an admin ruling after we have concrete evidence to support the proposal.

      And just to be clear for anyone who doesn't already know, only admins are permitted to move/rename pages.

      Amorkuz wrote: What's the worst that can happen?

      The worst that can happen is that we're wrong and we have to do a major cleanup. That is the only reason for the delay. For those who are interested, there are two "case studies" at Forum:Why we sometimes protect article creation: the curious case of Dorium Maldavar and Tardis:Spoiler policy#Where spoilers are allowed.

      The interpretation of CzechOut's comments applies to characters whose pages haven't been created yet ("relatively minor articles"), and therefore do not have a huge number of links to them, and is mostly concerned with spelling. In addition, there is more to Osgood than just deciding on the name. This is a very long thread, and I may have missed something, but there doesn't seem to be a definite answer on the original question of how to deal with the collective identity or the person.

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    • If we feel like delaying the Petronella part, we can decide every part of policy except for that part, and later move the page to Petronella Osgood if "that thing we can't mention" confirms her name. After all, Petronella Osgood still redirects to the correct article.

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    • At least I tried. Moving forward. As Shambala108 rightfully said, there are more things to decide than just the name. Since the name decision has been postponed, I support Bwburke94's suggestion to try and resolve the other issues. It felt to me like the attempt to decide all aspects simultaneously reached an impasse some time ago, so deciding on each issue separately seems like a way to move forward. And, unlike with the name, nothing seems to indicate that any new information about the other issues is forthcoming any time soon.

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    • Bwburke94 wrote: Also, for non-comic readers, what was the reveal in Weapons of Past Destruction?

      It feels like going into the details would be steering too much off topic. I replied on your talk page.

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    • I do hope that Moffat gives some details in Osgood's next appearence. He can keep the mystery by adding more twists and turns with the two Osgoods we have now but I'd like to get an answer about which one was killed by Missy :P

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    • So, "Petronella" is still not mentioned on audio (unless I missed it). Thus, the name was included in the cast of Silenced (audio anthology) expressly to confirm it is her real name. I think it is time to rename the page.

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    • As has been mentioned several times, the name has been mentioned in-universe, but in a possibly-sarcastic manner. It's our own out-of-universe interpretation that currently keeps "Petronella" out of the article title.

      Going back to my four questions:

      1. Is human Osgood's full name Petronella Osgood?

      If we make this move, we're still using out-of-universe sources to confirm an in-universe source; nothing about that fact has changed. However, Silenced changes the situation in one way, in that Ingrid Oliver has now been credited as playing Petronella Osgood (previously, she was credited solely as Osgood).

      2. How should we deal with Osgood the collective identity as opposed to Osgood the human?

      Nothing about this has changed. The collective identity is still the same identity originally held by the human, and nothing set post-Day indicates which Osgood is which. Every post-Day Osgood is using the identity of the human Osgood.

      3. If the identity and a human share a page, how should it be disambiguated?

      This question has already been answered, for the most part. Because the human and the identity both debuted in Day (even if the identity wasn't plot-relevant until Invasion), the page should be located at whatever title the human Osgood's page would ordinarily use, whether this be Osgood (The Day of the Doctor), Petronella Osgood, or something else entirely.

      4. How do we disambiguate the Zygon Osgood from Day?

      Day is the only story in which any Osgood can be definitively stated to be a Zygon. Bonnie is both a Zygon and an Osgood in Inversion, but no Osgood can be definitively stated to be Bonnie. This means that there is no need for story-disambiguation at this time, unless I'm overlooking a comic story in which Bonnie appears.

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    • Yes, you are right. It's been months, so the questions and arguments need to be repeated in full. I propose to decide question 1. first and separately from the other three. The facts are as follows:

      • Petronella being her first name was stated in-universe by Osgood.
      • The name Petronella was used by the Doctor in-universe (essentially) in the same conversation.
      • Ingrid Oliver is credited as Petronella Osgood (for the first time) in the latest audio box set.

      The last item has appeared only about a week ago and, to my mind, resolves the situation. Here is why.

      While "Petronella" originated in-universe, it only had one subjective source: the Doctor learned about the name from the same source, i.e., from Osgood. Thus, we considered two possibilities: (A) that Petronella is her first name or (B) that she lied/joiked for one reason or another about her first name.

      Although cast lists on Big Finish website are not in-universe per se, I believe cast lists have more weight than any other out-of-universe source (script, etc.). Partly, this is because TV stories (and at least one audio story) feature cast within the story. Cast is an inalienable part of a TV story. For instance, the spelling in the cast is normally preferred to, Radio Times listings, promotional materials or closed captions. It is true that cast has sometimes been used for misdirection. But in all cases I can remember, it was by stating character's name that was at least partially correct within the context of the story and never by stating a character's name that is just false (the name of the actor, on the other hand, may be wrong). For instance, the character of Lucie Miller is credited as "Brother Lucianus" in The Book of Kells, but she is called by that name in the story. And this is why it is important that Osgood is never called by the first name (Petronella or otherwise) in the UNIT: Silenced box set. Hence, Petronella cannot be a partially correct but misleading name. The only option remaining is that it is her first name.

      To summarise, the only thing that could overwrite a name stated in the cast is an in-universe information expressly contradicting this name. In the absence of such contradicting information, I believe we should rule out option (B) and accept Petronella as the first name (at least until a contradicting information occurs).

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    • Agreed. Should human Osgood's page name be changed if this is the conclusion?

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    • Since page moves are not allowed by anyone other than admins, we just have to wait for their response.

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    • What about questions 2 to 4? We should answer all these questions at once.

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    • I'd like to resolve all four questions eventually. However, we've had an enormous difficulty finding a consensus before, as evidenced by the length of the thread. Since Question 1 is, in principle, independent of the other three, I hope that resolving it first would help bringing the general solution closer. This is my rationale for separating it. (In fact, I believe I've stated my position regarding the other three questions before, but, as I say, I'll return to it as soon as the page is, hopefully, renamed.)

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    • This kind of sums my opinions on questions 2 and 4: We don't know whether the human or Zygon Osgood died on Death in Heaven. With the "new" Osgood (Bonnie), it will be even harder (if not impossible) to say which Osgood is on episodes set after The Zygon Inversion.

      With this in mind, I think the less complicated way of dealing with Osgood will be to merge all characters in one page (like we do with most Time Lord incarnations), making sections about:

      • The human Osgood (covering the character from "birth" up to the events of The Day of the Doctor, when a Zygon copies her)
      • Operation Double (covering aspects from The Day of the Doctor up to Death in Heaven, when one Osgood dies)
      • The Two Osgoods (covering aspects from Death in Heaven up to The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion, when Bonnie decides to "become" Osgood and sustain Operation Double)
      • A "new" Osgood (covering aspects from the end of The Zygon Inversion, fowards)
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    • Regarding "Petronella": Email subject lines in Yes, Missy give both Osgood names as "Petronella Osgood", i.e. "To: Petronella Osgood From: Petronella Osgood" and "To: Kate Stewart From: Petronella Osgood"

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    • Tybort wrote: Regarding "Petronella": Email subject lines in Yes, Missy give both Osgood names as "Petronella Osgood", i.e. "To: Petronella Osgood From: Petronella Osgood" and "To: Kate Stewart From: Petronella Osgood"

      Assuming Yes, Missy is valid (and if it is presented as a story, it certainly is), we finally have our unambiguous proof.

      Of course, this doesn't mean the page should be moved. We still have three questions to answer.

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    • If a valid story unambiguously states that as her name, there's no reason not to rename. I looked at your four questions, and there's nothing all that complicated. "Osgood", or "Petronella Osgood" (which has apparently caught on despite how I read the initial intentions), is an identity shared by multiple individuals at any given time. We don't separate any of them, except insofar as they existed before actually becoming Osgood.

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    • Has every question been answered, is what I'm asking.

      (Question 4 didn't necessarily receive an answer, but the naming of Zygon articles goes far beyond the scope of Osgood.)

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    • The page exists anyways. Even links to Petronella Osgood are still lurking in places. The naming policy surely takes precedent over this discussion. Things will never move if we fail to react to new in-universe information.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • Yes, Petronella, there is a Santa Claus

      The 2017-ish short story, Yes, Missy, unambiguously resolves the matter of whether the page Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) should be renamed Petronella Osgood. The use of "Petronella" in this story is not ironic, nor tied to another obviously incorrect piece of information. It just is her name. This is backed up, though it needn't have been, by the use in the cast of characters Big Finish used in an audio release. Though non-narrative, it is a long-held practice that credits published with the release of a story are an allowable source if nothing in-narrative gives us anything to go by. We don't need it in this case, but happily we have it for additional confirmation.

      Accordingly, as explained at Talk:Petronella Osgood/Archive 2, links have been moved from Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) to Petronella Osgood (save for the ones in this thread), and the page has been moved.

      So that dispenses with the original argument on the thread.

      How do you solve a problem like the Zygons?

      Next comes the assertion that Zygon versions of Osgood are somehow a combined species or hybrid known as "human/Zygon". That's not true and just not how Zygons work. The so-called "Zygon Osgoods" are fully Zygon and merely mimicking humans. Terror of the Zygons makes this abundantly clear, and nothing in the Moffat-era tales does anything to conclusively dispute this. Zygons operate in a particular way, and their unique way of mimicry needs to be observed in article naming and construction.

      The "Zygon known as Petronella Osgood" is not Petronella Osgood in any way. Not like Clara's splinters, not like incarnations of the same Time Lord. They are distinct from Petronella Osgood -- and therefore do not belong on the page about the human original.

      The so-called "Zygon Osgood"[1] is an identity assumed by several different Zygons, and is that sense singular, taking care of Shambala108's justified concerns that we follow T:NAMING's admonition to name pages singularly.

      Yet, although it is a single identity, as 115.188.61.225 tells us, it was assumed by several different Zygons. Accordingly, the page Zygon Osgood -- like one about a title or a job or an office -- can discuss several different Zygons who held that identity. This is pretty much what Danniesen argued quite simply back in November 2015, and SOTO expounded upon.

      I don't hold fully with all of SOTO's argument, of course, because it was written before the publication of the short story that allows us to call the human original "Petronella". But the basic notion is there.

      Conclusions arising from this discussion

      Here's what results from the above:

      • Petronella Osgood, an article about the human original. Links to Zygon Osgood can be given there, but that's it. Please keep that article as tightly focussed on the human as possible.
      • Zygon Osgood, an article about the Zygon identity passed around by several Zygons. This article should be broken up into sections, each sticking to uniquely identifiable Zygons carrying on the identity. It should not bear the category "Individual Zygons", but instead should have the category, "category:Zygon identities".[2]
      • Bonnie (The Zygon Invasion), is an article that, to my mind, needs no changing of its focus. It stays tight on that individual Zygon, and mentions her assumption of the Osgood identity as a logical part of her biography. Zygon Osgood, of course, should also mention Bonnie's assumption of the identity.
      • Osgood's sister shall be moved to Petronella Osgood's sister, as the simplest disambiguation.
      • Osgood has already been created as a disambiguation page for all the Osgoods the site covers, and not just those caught up in this Zygon controversy. And I see no cause to change that to Osgood (disambiguation).
      • Any talk of other Osgoods in UNIT not directly connected to the Petronella Osgood/Zygon is deemed off topic to this thread and summarily dismissed -- though a few of these non-Petronella suggestions were implemented anyway.
      • To SOTO's point about searchability, Osgood (The Day of the Doctor) and Osgood's sister have been retained as redirects. And if the casual DW fan edits Osgood into an article where Petronella Osgood is more desirable, that's okay. At least readers clicking on the link will be close to the topic they're looking for. As is said on the dab page notice, "If you followed a link here, please fix it to point to one of the pages listed below".

      Applicability of this ruling is limited

      Finally, I just wanna note that Zygons are a specific type of shape-changing species. Their methods have been well and pretty consistently described across their appearances. I know there was some effort to apply general pagenaming policies and examples from other species that were kinda close, but I want to make it clear that I'm not making a ruling here with applicability beyond Zygons. Policies are written to have wide application; they cannot ever be written to take care of every single case. So next time we meet a shapechanging race, we should be wary of extrapolating this ruling for use there. It may be applicable, but it may not. We'll just have to wait and see.

      Notes

      1. I don't see a need to lengthen the name to Zygon Petronella Osgood as called for by Bwburke94; we should prefer shorter names over long ones, as long as the shorter name is unambiguous.
      2. Whether this page should be called Zygon Osgood or Zygon (Osgood) or Osgood (Zygon) doesn't matter to what the focus of the page should be. It's also a matter for a rename debate on Talk:Zygon Osgood, not this forum thread. There's also no clear consensus for a change in this thread, at least not one I'm able to see. So, for the moment, I'm just ruling "no change" on the PAGENAME.
        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
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