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  • It has been brought up on various discussions that the interpretation that the Crispy Master and the Delgado Master is somewhat flawed and possibly contradicted by other sources.

    I partially wanted to bring this up to a larger forum, but I more mainly wanted to pitch that even if from an in-universe perspective they're the same incarnation, from an out-of-universe p.o.v. they're very different in style, look, and direction. Thus I think that on Template:Master stories we split up the Delgado/Pratt/Beavers section into Delgado and Pratt/Beavers. This is what the readers will expect, what they will need to find info, and since the entire template is based off of actors and out-of-universe conceptions, then we can split up the two incarnations.

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    • I agree

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    • Bump.
      This is an out of universe template, so we aren't bound to treat them the same as if it were in-universe.

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    • I don't even think we really need a discussion. We keep theme as totally separate in our category system as well.

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    • It's a major change to a template, of course we need a discussion.

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    • Well, I mean ya, we need a discussion, but it's still a precedent we've set. Saying dumb stuff like "this discussion isn't even needed!" was sort of a hyperbole I guess.

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    • It seems that this change has since been made to the template. Unless anyone is arguing for it to be reverted, should this be closed?

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    • Considering that audio and comic stories have put them as different incarnations since then. I don't think we should fuse them back.

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    • Yeah, I agree. Honestly, having read the Legacy of the Daleks, I think the claim that Delgado and Pratt/Beavers were the same even in that text is somewhat questionable. But yeah, forum defunct.

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    • In a sense, this involves the larger question of what counts as an "incarnation" of the Master. It's a relic of when "incarnation" and "regeneration" were synonymous.

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    • OttselSpy25 wrote: I think the claim that Delgado and Pratt/Beavers were the same even in that text is somewhat questionable.

      How so? Having recently reread it myself, I find the claim that it doesn't lead directly into The Deadly Assassin beyond belief. Or are you saying that while he does act generally like Delgado and have the beard, we don't technically know if it's really the same regeneration?

      At any rate, I think this should all just be a matter of separate accounts. We consider the decayed Master(s) "different incarnations" as sections/templates go, but acknowledge that in terms of how they came to be, we don't know whether the Decayed Master was the result of the 12th or 13th incarnation of the Master being damaged. (Legacy of the Daleks is if nothing else clear that Delgado isn't the Master's last incarnation, the damage dealt to him by Susan is just so severe that it disables regeneration.)

      Incidentally, I think not enough credit is given to the possibility that the Pratt Decayed Master is not the same as the Beevers Decayed Master. I find it plausible enough that the Pratt Decayed Master was post-Legacy of the Daleks Delgado, who then found a way to restore himself to normal, regenerated into non-decayed Beevers as per Big Finish, and was later reduced to a similar decayed form.

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    • An interesting perspective. Are you proposing, then, that we separate the two Crispy Masters in the template, or are you good with how things are?

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    • As far as I know here is all we have regarding the Delgado/Beevers/Pratt debate:

      • The Delgado Master regenerated in a DWM 12th doctor comic. Furthermore, in the book "Harvest of Time" the third doctor mentions that the Delgado Master could regenerate.
      • A Beevers incarnation was damaged beyond repair in "The Two Masters" audio and became crispy. No regeneration.
      • A crispy Pratt, after his twelfth regeneration appeared in "The Deadly Assassin"
      ENGIN: After the twelfth regeneration, there is no plan that will postpone death.
      DOCTOR: He had a plan.
      • But Pratt was partially healed by the Eye of Harmony: "There was a good deal of power coming out of that monolith, and the Sash would have helped him to convert it."
      • The 4th Doctor noted that the crispy master became "less putrescent" during their next encounter in "Trail of the Worm".
      • In the Keeper of Traken, Beevers states: "I am now nearing the end of my twelfth regeneration."

      On the other hand we have a single valid book "legacy of the Daleks" which states that it went directly from Delgado to crispy master when Susan killed him on Tersurus.


      I'm afraid it would just be speculation that Pratt and Beevers are different regeneration. I guess he could be a stolen body that decayed and reverted back to Beevers after 'deadly assassin'?

      Your suggestion is as follows, right?

      Delgado (12th) > Pratt (12th; crispy) > Delgado (12th, not crispy) > Beevers (13th, pre-crispy) > Beevers (13th; crispy)

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    • Basically. Not that I'm asking us to outright say this (it is pure speculation that Pratt-as-Crispy-Delgado manages to outright revert the damage to himself in time to regenerate into Beevers), but it is a possibility that should be made room for.

      And again, Legacy of the Daleks no less "implies" it shows the origin of the Deadly Assassin Crispy than The Two Masters does. And Legacy also allows for Delgado to be able to regenerate in the general case; there is no conflict on whether he was the 12th Master.

      Ultimately, what I'd suggest would be to add a section to the Master page. Or, rather, to dissociate the accounts of not-yet-crispy Thirteenth Master played by Beevers, from the "A body in decay" version. That way, you'd have the Delgado section, which ends with a fork between "maybe this leads directly into Deadly Assassin, maybe he regenerates in Doorway to Hell"; then you'd have the section about non-crispy Beevers, which ends with The Two Masters’s account of him being turned into the Crispy Master; and then you have the "a body in decay" section, now limited to the actual Crispy Master(s) and acknowledging that the timeline is very murky.

      I mean, the {{Pratt}} template as it stands is a mess. A section titled "A body in decay" is saddled with all information about not-yet-decaying Beevers, making its title less than accurate — and what's more, Beevers again plays the shade of the Master post-TV Movie, and yet that template cannot point to both sections at once.

      So in terms of the template, we ought to make {{Beevers}} to the non-crispy instances of his Master, and not the various times he plays the decayed wraith. Then a {{Decayed}} for Pratt/Beevers as such, and a {{Wraith}} or something for the post-Roberts reversion to Beevers.

      …Although in my opinion it would be so very much easier to just re-split The Master into individual pages. That way you'd have:

      Past that (and before that) it's all relatively straightforward and uncontroversial.

      But even if we don't do this, I hope the above has made it clear that there's something very wrong with the current state of events where things we might want to call "Beevers' Master" don't belong in the section A body in decay to which {{Pratt}} is stuck linking.

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    • I'm pretty sure the majority of that was far beyond the scope of this thread, so I'm only going to respond to your suggestion in regard to the template. Unless Monday has made my brain feeble, "The Two Masters" is the only non-crispy Beevers appearance, and it's only for a few moments before he gets sautéed. Does that really justify its own section in the template? All other sections you mentioned seem to be covered, although maybe not by the names you suggested to give them.

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    • I wonder if we are getting off topic, are you arguing for meging Delgado and Crispy back together in the templates?

      EDIT:i did not see Schreibenheimer answer before typing

      (If I'm being perfectly honest my belief is that we should have a grand section/page for Beevers with under it subsections about all the bodies he stole instead of putting them on the same level.

      basically, the idea being for the Master article to follow this structure with the corresponding redirects:

      • Delgado
      • Beevers
        • Pratt
        • Ainley
        • Roberts

      in stead of:

      • Delgado
      • Pratt
      • Ainley
      • Roberts

      I would do the same basic structure with the Master Stories Template.

      Personally, I would like to adopt something akin to your naming and tried to find a proper one for a while, but here are a few issue I could see:

      • should we also create a page for the possessed Yee Jee Tso Master (Don Maestro) from Masterplan?
      • Should we for the possessed Mikey in "And You Will Obey Me"?
      • Same with all mentionned possessed body from Masterplan.
      • Who would be "The Master (Utopia)": Jacobi or Simm? Similarly is "Master (Last of the Time Lords)" Hughes or Simm?
      • Are we sure that everything before "Destination Wars" happened to the 8yo Hughes incarnation? Is Dreyfus the same as Hughes incarnation? Should we make a page for each time a pre-renegade Master is mentionned?
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    • I don't like this proposed at all, because again, it's blatant EDA erasure. Per Legacy of the Daleks, it is equally true that the Crispy Master is a deformed Delgado (12th Master) as a deformed Beevers (13th Master). Making all the Crispy Master business a subdivision of the section about the Beevers Master is wrong if only for that.

      Also, as discussed at Talk:I Am The Master (audio story), Ainley is also explicitly called a "regeneration", and nor does it make much sense to treat the Tzun Master as the same guy as Beevers.

      As for disambiguating Jacobi and Simm, part of me wants to answer "Shalka should be valid and that way Jacobi is The Master (Scream of the Shalka)". But more seriously, Jacobi is given the title of "War Master" by Big Finish to match the War Doctor, so why not use War Master for him, thereby leaving The Master (Utopia) for Simm and The Master (The Sound of Drums) for Hughes.

      As for "is Dreyfus the First Master?", I wanna say no, but the reason is the elephant in the room when it comes to early Master incarnations: we have yet to reconsider the The War Chief/The Master link in light of the "novelisations are valid" thing. Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon is quite clear that they're the same guy, in addition to all the hints; thus far Divided Loyalties’s treatment of the Master and War Chief as distinct trumped this, but now that novelisations are fully valid in their own right… That's a mess that deserves its own thread, unless we want to rename this one and make it more generally about straightening out our coverage of the Master's incarnations. Which doesn't sound too bad, actually.

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    • The topic of whether or not to split or merge our coverage of the Master has already been discussed at length, and concluded in the one unified page we have today. All the concerns brought up above are some of the reasons why.

      To steer this conversation back to its central thread, allow me just to point out that any discussion of overturning that decision (if there is truly some new angle that changes everything) would be taking place in a different thread. Instead, let's try to concern ourselves with how best to cover various points of the Master's life (on the page The Master, and keeping in mind T:NPOV) as faithfully as possible, without, as Scrooge McDuck has noted, erasure of older sources in favour of newer material/only certain mediums alone.

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    • I'm genuinely interested in the subject as a whole and not against making a new thread about it or try and discuss it with each other on our own talk pages if you wish.

      Maybe we have one on this very subject in september 2015 (by going through the page history) given that it was apparently decided that we don't explicitely put Delgado as being the 13th despite Legacy of the Daleks anymore at the time.


      Back to the OP topic: should we keep Delgado separated from the crispy husk one(s) in the Master Stories template which is a real world section and not an in-universe one?

      I see three sensible options so that we don't lose information:

      1) We keep the distinction as it is as of now (other unrelated changes not withstanding):

      • Early
      • Dreyfus
      • Delgado
      • Pratt
      • Ainley
      • "John Smith"
      • VNA
      • Roberts
      • Mastermind
      • Macqueen
      • Titan
      • Jacobi
      • Simm
      • Gomez
      • unclear (tipple, ...)
      • AU
        • Kisgart
        • Inferno
      • NOTVALID

      2) We put them like I proposed already above, with Beevers distinct from Delgado and all his attempts at prolonging life as being subsections (following what appears to be the way BF see it but which you don't seem to agree with due to the apparent conflict with John Peel's book)

      • Early
      • Dreyfus
      • Delgado
      • Beevers
        • Pratt
        • Ainley
        • VNA
        • Roberts
      • Macqueen
      • Titan
      • Jacobi
      • Simm
      • Gomez
      • unclear (Tipple ...)
      • AU
        • Kisgart
        • Inferno
      • NOTVALID

      3) We put ALL the Beevers and Pratt stories in the Incarnation unclear section because of the conflict between some accounts. Would that be ok with you?

      • Early
      • Dreyfus
      • Delgado
      • Macqueen
      • Titan
      • Jacobi
      • Simm
      • Gomez
      • unclear
        • Pratt
        • Ainley
        • "John Smith"
        • VNA
        • Roberts
        • Mastermind
        • Others (Tipple, ...)
      • AU
        • Kisgart
        • Inferno
      • NOTVALID
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    • There's little to no reason to separate crispy Beevers from crispy Pratt. What sources, if any, have stated the two to be separate incarnations?

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    • Yeah, I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I can't think of any evidence of it. I really can't think of any non-Crispy Master stories set between "The Deadly Assassin" and "The Keeper of Traken". I think it's just a way of trying to fit Legacy of the Daleks with later stories that blatantly disregarded Legacy of the Daleks.

      EDIT: After going back to Legacy of the Daleks, I want to add to my previous statement. I believe that a bit of this revolves around one somewhat vague sentence. When Susan uses the tissue compression eliminator on the Master, it says,

      There was no respite for him now, no way to regenerate from such a death.

      It's unclear whose viewpoint this statement is from. Under one possible reading, it's from the Master's point-of-view or an omniscient narrator's and, if they're the Master or omniscient, why don't they mention that the Master is out of regenerations anyway? Since they didn't, that means this must not be the Thirteenth Master!

      To me, that seems like a VERY tenuous hook to hang a belief on when nothing else I can think of seems to support it. I'm always open to new information, though!

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    • @Schreibenheimer: I'm not sure what you're arguing here, Schreiben. That Legacy presents Delgado as the Thirteenth Master, or that it actually features a non-Delgado 13th Master?

      If it's the former, my reasoning isn't so much "this line is definitive proof that Legacy still considers Delgado the Twelfth Master" as "this line means what Legacy says about Delgado is ambiguous, so in light of later evidence that he's the Twelfth Master, we go with that".

      If it's the latter… have you read the book? Everything from his just coming off of Frontier in Space, to his speech patterns, to his ownership of a beard (which Beevers' Master famously lacks) points towards this being the Delgado Master.

      And even if that didn't convince you, Beevers-as-a-separate-incarnation-from-Delgado hadn't yet been thought up at the time John Peel wrote Legacy of the Daleks, so this becomes a similar discussion to the "two Romana IIIs" one: if two stories unrelated come up with a new incarnation of a Time Lord, which supposedly occupy the same number, but have different faces and histories, do we consider them the same or not? (Leaning towards a resounding "not".)

      @User:Bwburke94: Beevers and Pratt's Crispy Masters look different and are played by different actors (who sound hardly anything like each other). Were this any other situation, we wouldn't break a sweat to call them two different incarnations. And even in the hypothesis where they are technically "the same", Beevers is still a version of Crispy who has been significantly enlivened by the influence of the Eye; there has been a transformation of some sort. So whatever version one goes with, it makes some sense to handle them as two different subsections.

      @User:RingoRoadagain: Seems a bit weird to have all the post-Delgado pre-Macqueen Masters after Missy. Couldn't we do basically your second solution, but call it "Out of regenerations" or something like that, and place it wholesale between Delgado and Macqueen?

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    • I was only addressing the argument of whether the Pratt and Beevers Masters were the same and was not touching on Pratt being Delgado at all, which may have been doing your argument a disservice, I'll concede.

      Overall, I think trying to reconcile Legacy of the Daleks with any of the Master stories (or Susan stories, for that matter) that have come after is a fruitless task; there are too many contradictions. That isn't to say that Legacy is an invalid source; of course it's valid, and its account of what happened should be included on the Master's page (which it currently is). But the page does need to be structured around an overall narrative, and I believe its necessary for that narrative to be the ongoing one presented in all other sources I can think of. "All sources are equally valid" does not necessarily mean that one source is equal to multiple others. I think how the page is currently laid out is pretty good.

      On a final point, while I do agree that the Master in Legacy is the Delgado one, we have no idea if the Beevers Master had a beard before being burned.

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    • The current layout of the page is fine, it's the templates that I take issue with. We should have a better system in place than a template called {{Pratt}} linking to a section filled to the brim with info about a Master played by Beevers, even though there is a possibility in at least some valid sources that Pratt isn't in fact playing Beevers' Thirteenth Master, but rather Delgado's Twelfth Master.

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    • Here is a thread discussing whether Delgado and Pratt are the same incarnation based solely on Peel's book: Thread:167204

      Also discussed there: Talk:The Master (Tersurus)

      Honestly I find it quite unclear. You convinced me that it is ambiguous which incarantion would be the crispy Master in "Legacy of the Daleks" and as reminded to us by T:NPOV we should not discard it. The description of him being found by Goth clearly shows him to be the TV portrayal of Pratt and not the one of Beevers.

      The skin was burnt and blackened, parts of the skeleton exposed. The face was blistered and warped, the eyes large and studying him unblinkingly.{{{2}}}

      If I understand your point correctly, then I may have found a new proposal, putting only Pratt's stories in the unclear section (with or without my proposal of putting all attempts at unnatural survival under Beevers as I understand it from BF's stance):

      4)

      • Early
      • Dreyfus
      • Delgado
      • Beevers
      • Ainley
      • "John Smith"
      • VNA
      • Roberts
      • Mastermind
      • Macqueen
      • Titan
      • Jacobi
      • Simm
      • Gomez
      • unclear (tipple, ...)
        • Pratt: Legacy of the Daleks * Deadly Assassin
      • AU
        • Kisgart
        • Inferno
      • NOTVALID

      OR

      5)

      • Early
      • Dreyfus
      • Delgado
      • Beevers
        • Ainley
        • VNA
        • Roberts
      • Macqueen
      • Titan
      • Jacobi
      • Simm
      • Gomez
      • unclear (tipple, ...)
        • Pratt: Legacy of the Daleks * Deadly Assassin
      • AU
        • Kisgart
        • Inferno
      • NOTVALID

      OR, my 2nd proposal with your tweak (although i would prefer to avoid the "no regeneration" since you reminded us of some regeneration-like phrasing for both Ainley and the Tzun Masters):

      6)

      • Early
      • Dreyfus
      • Delgado
      • {{Beevers|Out of regeneration}} / {{Beevers|Survival}}
        • Pratt
        • Ainley
        • VNA
        • Roberts
      • Macqueen
      • Titan
      • Jacobi
      • Simm
      • Gomez
      • unclear (Tipple ...)
      • AU
        • Kisgart
        • Inferno
      • NOTVALID
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    • (by the way i recall a conversation between Beevers and MacQueen in "the two masters" where Beevers claimed that until he was disfigured by the bald incarnation, he had a beard)

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    • It's really quite simple. He didn't regenerate into a disfigured form. He regenerated as a normal looking individual and was unfortunate enough to be disfigured by his future self.

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    • Danniesen wrote: It's really quite simple. He didn't regenerate into a disfigured form. He regenerated as a normal looking individual and was unfortunate enough to be disfigured by his future self.

      Well according to "Legacy" he probably did not: the Eighth Doctor states that Delgado is "two and a half" bodies ago which is difficult to reconcile in with the rest of known stories. The book has Susan kill Delgado of her own hands with no possibility to regenerate, this alone contradicts the "disfigured by his future self" account.

      That's why i am now arguing that Pratt should become an "incarnation unclear": he could be Delgado (Legacy of the Dalek's account) or he is Beevers (Big Finish's accounts).

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    • Pratt and Beevers are meant to be the same and when Beevers portrays the Master pre-The Deadly Assassin in stories that are MADE afterwards it is simply because he is a better fit to call back to do it. It is in no way because he changes from Beever variation to Pratt variation and back to Beevers variation. Beevers' pre-TDA portrayals are as the normal-looking regeneration after Delgado and portraying him as Crispy Pratt's version. The MacQueen incarnation totally disfigured him. Beevers portrays him as Pratt would. Then this version was healed by the Eye, the result of which we see in The Keeper of Traken.

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    • Fair enough on this erasing much possibility of Beevers!Crispy and Pratt!Crispy coexisting, but the fact remains that Legacy either features Delgado or (very tentatively) an alternative Thirteenth Master, but simply cannot feature SeparateIncarnation!PreCrispy!Beevers, as that character had yet to be created — and sees that turning into the Crispy Master.

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    • This paragraph is taken directly from The Master page:

      "However, this may be reconciled as Legacy does not explicitly feature the Delgado Master 'regenerating' into the Pratt/Beevers version, as the novel depicts him being blown out of his TARDIS when Susan destroys a key piece of equipment and he is later shown being rescued by Goth, creating the possibility that he was not badly injured by the explosion and was able to retrieve another TARDIS to continue his depicted adventures as the Delgado incarnation, such as Doorway to Hell, until he regenerated and was disfigured in Two Masters."

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    • That's inaccurate. Even if Legacy did not fairly explicitly show the explosion burning away the Master's flesh, his mind has, by this point, already been severely damaged by Susan's attack, all the charm and refinement burned away to reveal the impervious hatred lurking below. The Master in Doorway to Hell simply cannot be a post-Legacy!explosion Master. All that paragraph sounds like Howling material.

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    • It's not inaccurate. Just because you turn turn insane due to it does not mean you turn into a different incarnation. Simm's version was vastly different between Series 3 finale, Series 4 special and Series 10 finale, but he was all the same incarnation. This scenario is exactly the same, but with two different versions of the Master.

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    • I protest! It is theoretically possible to reconcile Legacy of the Daleks with just The Two Masters, though that's pretty far-fetched already. But what I mean is that the Delgado Master's behaviour in Doorway to Hell specifically is not consistent with a post-Susan-attack Master at all.

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    • It is very possible that he had time to calm. We can't say how much time passed.

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    • Oh, come on. It's overwhelmingly clear that the maddened state reached by the Master due to Susan is the very same mental state in which we find him in Deadly Assassin.

      All in all, this entire "but what if Delgado somehow survived the explosion unharmed, and somehowgot his mind back, only to later be reverted to the exact same maddened state when his future self fried him again" thing is at least as much speculation as my earlier "what if Pratt is fried-Delgado who turned back to normal in time for Doorway, regenerated into Beevers, got fried again, and became the Keeper of Traken Crispy?", which was rightfully shot down.

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    • We also can’t claim anything other than “According to one account Delgado was the Thirteenth Master and was disfigured by Susan” and “According to another account he regenerated and Beevers was the Thirteenth Master who was disfigured by his future self”

      It’s pointless to even speculate how the accounts could fit together because we don’t have any sources that even suggest that they should fit together. Fact of the matter is, Pratt and Beevers are not separate incarnations because we don’t have a source that suggests that. Doorway isn’t post-Legacy, because again we don’t have a source that suggests that. This kind of speculation is all well and good on the timeline pages but on the articles we have to be impartial and treat all sources equally.

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    • This is all getting very far away from the matter at hand, which is the layout of the template. My feelings are that separating Pratt and Beevers on the template is problematic because the distinction is unclear. Beevers plays the character immediately post-flambéing in "The Two Masters", which, yes, is only one account of what happened, but still makes it rather difficult to separate the two as distinct incarnations.

      Also, it's a rather small subset of stories to create their own category when the need for a separate category is debatable to begin with; Pratt only appeared in "The Deadly Assassin", Legacy of the Daleks is primarily a Delgado story, and he's played by Beevers in "The Two Masters" despite not being healed by the Eye of Harmony yet.

      EDIT: The context of my initial statement is based on having started typing before SarahJaneFan's most recent post.

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    • SarahJaneFan wrote: We also can’t claim anything other than “According to one account Delgado was the Thirteenth Master and was disfigured by Susan” and “According to another account he regenerated and Beevers was the Thirteenth Master who was disfigured by his future self”

      As we covered upthread, Legacy of the Daleks, while it's consistent with such a proposal, does not spell out Delgado to be the Thirteenth Master, instead hedging its bets and saying that "no regeneration could save him from such a death". Since Doorway, for its part, definitively establishes Delgado as #12 (whatever else it may do), I see no reason not to stick with the "Delgado is still the Twelfth Master but the T.C.E.+Dalek Artifact explosion cancels regeneration" possibility that Peel left us.

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    • Scrooge, it is in no way the same thing tho.

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    • BTW, why the "oh come on". Isn't that a bit hostile?

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    • Sorry, didn't mean it to come across as such. It's a colloquial "come on now, fellow reader, you know as well as I do", not an angry "come on" as I now realize it may have read as.

      In what way does it differ, though? In both cases, a story has Delgado go through a seemingly-irreversible, dire transformation of which no signs whatever are apparent in Doorway to Hell, and we were speculating as to the possibility that through unknown offscreen mechanics, he could have restored himself to normal in time for Doorway.

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    • One talks about his mind, the other talks about his appearance. And as I also covered, this scenario is similar to the Saxon Master transformation. He is 3 different versions of himself in all 3 appearances, but he is still the same single incarnation. One had him insane, one had him total mental psychopath and one had him calm and collected evil genius mind.

      Delgado's Master could easily have gone through the same transformation, with the blast out the TARDIS and picked up by Goth (no regeneration confirmed stated) turning him a mentally unstable wreck of a psycho while the other one (showing a regeneration happening for him) not stating when it takes place and how long time could have gone.

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    • The latter doesn't show his following incarnation either. And we can almost be certain he regenerated as a normal-looking man as it would be pretty much implausible that he regenerated as a burnt out corpse, also confirmed by the fact that before being attacked by his future self, he was a normal-looking person.

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    • In case I did not explain my reasoning properly, I am not asking to explicitely separate Pratt and Beevers at all.

      Taking all accounts either we have:

      Delgado > burnt ALL remaining regenerations if any > Crispy Pratt > Crispy Beevers; whether Pratt is the burnt Delgado or a new but immediately burnt incarnation seems unclear in the text

      or we have:

      Delgado > (maybe a few others unknown ones) > pre-crispy Beevers > crispy Beevers > Crispy Pratt > Crispy Beevers

      Without more material reconciling Susan shooting Delgado to death on Tersurus and McQueen shooting Beevers MUST possess some degree of speculation.

      As of now, I argue that it is impossible to know 100%.

      That's my reasoning to why I believe we should put both Pratt stories (Legacy and Assassin) in the "incarnation unclear" section.

      This is not saying that Pratt is not Beevers but, much like we do with Tipple in the template, just admitting that we simply don't know.

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    • Good analysis; I hadn't actually considered that it's possible the guy Delgado regenerates into in Doorway to Hell is not immediately Beevers. Your solution mostly sounds good, but is there any way to put all the unclear Masters before the Macqueen-Gomez NuWho regeneration cycle, to maintain a semblance of chronology?

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    • There cannot have been "a few others unknown". It has been pretty much known since the 70s that Delgado's was "at the end of the line", which does not mean that he IS the last, but pretty much states that there can only at most be one more.

      And why do we not know if Pratt and Beevers are the same? That is pretty much confirmed outright by multiple instances...

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    • As I said, even if Pratt "is" Beevers, he still changes face and voice thanks to the Eye of Harmony partially healing him, which you could construe as a separate version of the Master. But that's a minor point.

      What are you referring to regarding it "having been pretty much known since the 70s that Delgado was 'at the end of the line'"? I recall no such thing, on television at least.

      Also, can we please address my concerns regarding the War Chief?

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    • Hold on. I know of no sources that specify anything about what regeneration Delgado is. Where are you getting that from?

      EDIT: Sorry, Scrooge posted at the same time I was typing. I believe that there is sufficient evidence that there should be a section noting the possibility that the Master and The War Chief are the same character, just like there is one on the War Chief page.

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    • Oh we are not in disagreement on the transfer from Pratt's walking corpse to Beevers' slightly healed body. There is a clear change. But even though he's a different version, he is still the same incarnation.

      Ever since I first got into Doctor Who and got knowledge of the Master (that was well before I first got to experience him in the show), everything I heard from everywhere talking about the first version to ever appear of the Master was that he was at the end of his cycle.

      What about the War Chief?

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    • The thing about the War Chief is that there is currently a very very plentiful BTS section on The War Chief about how a bunch of sources in and out-of-universe agree he's an earlier incarnation of the Master, but none of it comes through in the in-universe sections of either page.

      This is, as best I can tell, because Divided Loyalties, an original novel, has the Doctor have a partially-unreliable dream about his Academy days in which the young Master and the young War Chief are separate characters. Whereas the only narrative works which make the War Chief/Master connection explicit are Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon and Doctor Who and the Terror of the Autons, which are both novelisations. And until a few years ago, information from novelisations that contradicted fully original works was invalid.

      But that is no longer the case, so it's about time we revised our habit of so neatly separating the two.

      Besides the fact that this would put him in the Master stories template, the reason he's mildly relevant to this "which incarnation is Delgado?" discussion is that Timewyrm: Exodus all but states that after another regeneration post-War Games, the War Chief regenerates into a young Delgado. So even assuming that Dreyfus is an older Hughes, that would make Delgado the fourth incarnation at the very, ludicrously earliest.

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    • I won't lie; while I personally already considered the War Chief to be an incarnation of the Master, I thought there were more contradictions than that. I'm not sure that's within the scope of this thread, though; I'm pretty sure most people would consider that a big change and would want it to have its own debate.

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    • We need more voices on this than just us to give their view.

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    • It does probably deserve its own thread, it's true. Still relevant to this one in its capacity as "how do we update the Master stories template?", since such a decision would impact said template as well.

      The only other outright contradiction I'm aware of regarding the War Chief=Master link is A Brief History of Time Lords, although that book didn't exist yet at the time the section was written, so hey.

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    • We are getting off topic from OP's question about the Crispy Master, I'm afraid. It should probaly be best to discuss characters who may or may not be the Master like the War Chief, "The War King" (aka the Magistrate from The Infinity Doctors), "Man with the Rosette" and "Professor Stream (The Hollows of Time)" in its own thread.

      Although there are many hints for each that they are the Master, it has never been confirmed outright in a valid licensed story. (to my chagrin as i was a contributor to this BtS section) One possible reason might be copyright? War Chief probably belongs to the Dicks & Hulke estate for instance.

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    • I don't think you realize that Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon and Doctor Who and the Terror of the Autons are in fact the work of Malcolm Hulke and Terrance Dicks. They were totally at liberty to use the War Chief, copyright-wise.

      And they did! The only way for these books to be more explicit about the link would be to have Delgado hold a big neon sign flashing “I USED TO CALL MYSELF THE WAR CHIEF AND HAVE A WEIRD MUSTACHE JUST SAYING”.

      The only reason they don't do this is that they aren't infected with the fandom superstition that "the War Chief" is a Time Lord name to which the character answered, as opposed to just his rank within the War Lords' army. So all they can do is say in no uncertain terms "remember that Time Lord who allied with the War Lords and whom the Master called the other Time Lords in to try, and then he was supposed to have his TARDIS revoked and timestream erased, but he escaped? now he calls himself the Master".

      So all in all, quite a different discussion from the War King, the Man with the Rosette, and Professor Stream, all three of whom are cases of characters coded to be the Master, but who cannot be considered to be the Master by the Wiki because the stories weren't licensed to use the Master.

      So I support a separate thread to get the War Chief business cleared up, a thread whose final decision would also influence this one somewhat. But Stream, the War King and Rosette don't belong in that thread.

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    • I don't see and never saw the War Chief as the Master. Personally I also think that the whole of the fandom (with that I mean everywhere outside this Wikia) is in agreement that these are not the same character.

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    • But should we get back to the topic, which was not the War Chief...

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    • Danniesen wrote: I don't see and never saw the War Chief as the Master. Personally I also think that the whole of the fandom (with that I mean everywhere outside this Wikia) is in agreement that these are not the same character.

      Even if this is true (and it's not at all my experience, for the record), what the fandom thinks is neither here nor there. The fandom also tends not to think the Doctor is half-human, and a large proportion is also against Looms; yet here we are.

      Which gets us cleanly back on-topic: the fact of the matter is that even if most of the fandom tends to go with Big Finish over the EDAs in these matters, Legacy of the Daleks is equally valid to later accounts, and we can't simply mangle its storyline in a speculative effort to fit it together with The Two Masters. So I still think putting all the "arguable" in-between-cycles Masters in one big subsection of the template, and calling it a day for now.

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    • Never said we could use speculation. Of course, no speculation should be used on the articles to neatly connect them. That would be outrageous to do. I was just pointing out a very likely possibility that could potentially turn out true eventually.

      But given that all we can provide is speculation on what could and could not be false and true, we can keep discussing this forever without actually being able to reach a conclusion on The Master until stories are actually made that fill in these holes.

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    • That sounds like the opposite of the problem we have. The problem is that different stories filled the holes in different ways. We have two different, valid ways that the Master got poached with significant differences between the details.

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    • In fairness, a story confirming that it is Beevers into whom Delgado regenerates in Doorway would bring some measure of clarity.

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    • I meant the hole that makes the stories contradicting. Like when the different stories talked about different origins of the Cybermen. All the stories providing different origins which were very clear contradictions until the Twelfth Doctor in one sentence removed the notion of contradiction completely in The Doctor Falls. A similar thing needs to happen here if the stories are to be connected into one.

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    • I think the master story template is fine as is as it is simple and conforms most What most people would expect.

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    • Regarding the original topic, I was always under the impression that it was the following: Delgado is most likely not the thirteenth Master, since Legacy of the Daleks isn’t explicit, and Doorway to Hell shows Delgado regenerating. Either way, the Master reaches his thirteenth incarnation, and through some event (the Macqueen Master fries him, correct?) becomes decayed. (This Master is played by both Beevers and Pratt, interchangeably. Simply because they are different actors does not mean they are different incarnations.) Eventually he takes over the body of Tremas, and hops between bodies. What happens is unclear, but he is given a new set of regenerations starting with Macqueen.

      There is also a quote by Missy in the short story Girl Power! (which admittedly in universe may not be 100% reliable as it's Missy’s account, but may show authorial intent):

      Born, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Took over some bloke's body, Died, Died, Died, Became a human, Stopped being a human, Died, Died, Became a woman, Ruled!Missy

      I’m not sure if “took over some bloke's body" refers to Tremas or Bruce, but I take this as:

      Hughes/Dreyfus > several other incarnations (maybe those speculated, such as the War Chief) > Delgado > possibly others > Pratt/Beevers > Ainley, Roberts, and other bodies > Macqueen > Titan > Jacobi (Time Lord > Human > Time Lord) > Simm > Gomez.

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    • It's mostly this, but again, if we agree that Legacy doesn't upset the placement of the Delgado Master as earlier than thirteenth, then we have the possibility that it is the Twelfth (or earlier!) Master, that is to say Delgado, who turns into the Crispy Master, with there never being a "proper" thirteenth incarnation in the original regeneration cycle.

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    • That Missy quote also further establishes Simm > Gomez, though I don't believe that part's really up for debate.

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    • If you count what Missy says she says died 13 times in a row ("born" being counted with the first "died" (as that's one body)) (I haven't exactly figured out why 13, tho). That makes "took over some bloke's body being Tremas. There are 3 "died" afterwards too. Then "became a human, stopped being human, died" must be Yana. Then the next "died" is Saxon. And then she mentions herself.

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    • I'm not sure girl power shed much light on the matter:

      If we go by girl power, Missy died 18 times. 13 of those being before starting to possess bodies, not 12 like you would expect for the 13th incarnation. I have no clue how the author actually intended it to be understood tbh. Does becoming crispy counts as death for this account? Who is the possessed "bloke"?

      Also, in The Bekdel Test (audio story), Missy claims to have died and resurrected 85 times instead.

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    • The only rationalization I can come up with is that the "bloke's body" is Bruce, and the thirteenth death is the one portrayed at the beginning of the TV movie.

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    • Then what are the following 3 deaths?

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    • The "Bruce" Master's, Macqueen's, and the War Child's.

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    • That makes seance as in the movie the Doctor sails the masters final incarnation was killed by The Daleks.

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    • Or the thirteenth death is Ainley to Beevers Beevers to Ainley?

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    • There’s also the death of the Ainley Master and subsequent regeneration into the "Tzun Master".

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    • Chubby, Ainley came after Beevers and it wasn't a regeneration, it was a body swap.

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    • I'm pretty sure Tzun was a body swap as well.

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    • My mistake. I knew that. But I did not know for sure it was a body swap as I haven’t seen The Keeper of Traken yet. Then the thirteenth death likely refers to the one in the TV movie, played by Gordon Tipple.

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    • According to the article, The Light at the End calls Beevers to Ainley a regeneration and the "Tzun" incarnation a product of regeneration after being shot by Ace.

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    • Yeah he had his DNA altered from Trakenite to Time Lord by Tzun Nanites which granted him a new regeneration cycle.

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    • But that can't possibly be true as we know Pratt/Beevers was the final incarnation and it was clearly shown that Beevers into Ainley was merely stealing a body. Both Pratt/Beevers and Ainley were said to be the final incarnation of his cycle in the TV show.

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    • Danniesen wrote: (…) it was a body swap.

      …a what? "Body swap" usually assumes that Mind A goes into Body B while Mind B goes into Body A. This isn't what happens with the Beevers-Ainley "regeneration" at all: the Mouldy Master somehow merges with the body of Tremas, resulting in the creation of the Ainley Master, who doesn't look quite like either. Where that leaves Tremas's mind is anyone's guess, but it sure doesn't look as though it ends up in any version of the decayed body previously inhabited by the Master.

      And while it's not a standard regeneration, Beevers-Ainley is called a regeneration by several sources.

      I also don't see how the Basil Rathbone Master wouldn't count as a regeneration. What happens is that since Tremas's body has never regenerated before, turning into a genetically Gallifreyan body means it is on the very first body of its regeneration cycle; the 12-regeneration cap is tied to the body, not the spirit (which is, of course, the entire reason the Master tries to steal the Doctor's body in The TV Movie).

      Both Beevers-Ainley and Ainley-Tzun are, in other words, "rogue" regenerations, not purported to be part of the Master's original twelve-fold regeneration cycle, but regenerations nonetheless.

      With all that said, I don't think we should worry overmuch about these potentially-unreliable, extremely-up-to-interpretation Missy quotes.

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    • You know what I meant.

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    • In any case, what this thread has proven is that it's very hard to outright assign a number to any adult Master incarnation. So unless something obvious is being overlooked, we can't use numbering to solve the debate laid out in the OP four years ago.

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    • We didn't need this discussion to figure that out. 😂😅👍 I think even BBC Doctor Who has a hard time figuring out the Master... 😂

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    • My point with that quote was to help support the order of the Master's incarnations as discussed earlier. In fact, my main points joining this discussion were about the subject that

      1: we have one unclear account about Delgado being the Crispy Master, and one that rejects it outright;

      2: Pratt and Beevers play the same incarnation.

      It didn’t help that the quote I provided was confusing.

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    • Here's the closet the numbering can get at this stage;

      Delgado (12?) > Beevers/Pratt (13) > Crispy (13.2) > Ainley (14) > Tzun (15) > Tipple (16) > Roberts (16.2) > Mastermind (16.3) > Macqueen (17) > (It's possible that any number can come here due to lack of an on-screen transition, but I'm to continue with what's been presented) > Titan (18) > Jacobi (19) > Simm (20) > Gomez (21)

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    • And that's assuming that the Master didn't have to use any regenerations to survive the black hole from The Dark Path.

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    • Again, that's almost right except for the possibility that Crispy is a burned Delgado, and all post-Delgado incarnations of the original regeneration cycle, while possible (as Delgado was not at the end of his cycle), never actually come to exist.

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    • Keep in mind that not all sources include all Masters in their numbering. In the same vein as there being two different Romanas numbered III, there could be multiple Masters for any number. (For instance, the aforementioned Girl Power! appears to place Gomez at 19.)

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    • Day of the Master is perfectly clear that both Beevers and Roberts belong to the Master's final incarnation in his original regenerative cycle. Well, a Beevers anyway. This Beevers (who comes from later in his timeline than Roberts) is surprised to have been resurrected after dying because "I died. I am the end of the line". On finally regenerating (with the help of future incarnations), he is given "a new body, at last".

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    • It seems pretty clear to me that the intent in Girl Power, in listing 13 deaths before Roberts, is to include that one supposedly final death at the start of the TVM. That would have been the death of his 13th and final incarnation (in the sense of distinct regeneration), but that life was revived and prolonged, and then found a new body in Bruce.

      This means, according to Missy, the Master died three times after inhabiting Bruce and before becoming (well, being brought back by the Time Lords as) the War Master. But this one source does not trump all, and she's only going off memory and giving a short account, anyway. The Eighth Doctor failing to mention certain companions before his regeneration (in TNOTD and the TDOTD novelisation) does not mean that other sources featuring different companions no longer truly happened. And Missy gives a completely different number in The Bekdel Test, as noted.

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    • I think it's meant that the three deaths after the "bloke" and before becoming a human are the new set of regenerations granted by the Time Lords: The bald one (Macqueen), the child one (Titan Comics), and the War Master (Jacobi). Also, the number in The Bekdel Test says resurrected, not regenerated. (Just one example being in The End of Time.) But once again, my point with supplying that quote was mostly for the discussion of the Master's thirteenth incarnation.

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    • It's been my belief that the Master had the original 13 incarnations used, with Delgado being 12 and Pratt/Beevers being 13 and everything afterwards being stolen bodies, with the death of Rogers (sucked into the Eye) being the ending of him until he was resurrected by the Time Lords and given the MacQueen body who travelled back in time to continue to mess with the Seventh and Eighth Doctors. Afterwards he regenerated into his "asian child" incarnation and fought alongside the War Doctor and at some point changed into Jacobi who fought in the War too and then transformed into a human. Then Simm, then Gomez.

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    • Well it’s confirmed that Macqueen is the first of the new cycle at least, and that he comes directly after Mastermind Beevers.

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    • Slight rewrite. The Eye seperated him from his Roberts body, and his mind was eventually rescued from within the Time Vortex. He eventually got transferred into his Preacher body. He eventually suffered from a damage that transformed him back into his partially healed crispy form (Beevers) forcing him to wear a golden mask to conceal his identity until eventually revealing himself to the Doctor.

      He was then eventually granted a new cycle, triggering a regeneration, of which the MacQueen version was the first.

      That's how I would explain it, anyway.

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    • I think what actually happened was that Roberts escaped the Eye and went on living for a while, until he gets his memory wiped and thrown into the Time Vortex by his future selves. This presumably leads into The Preacher stuff.

      Then he ends up back in the Eye of Harmony where he remains until Edward Grainger releases him. He then lives on earth for 100 years as a deathworm morphant until he got to the 21st century and was able to recover his TARDIS. He then goes on living for an unspecified amount of time and ends up regaining his memories of his Roberts body, before being killed by the Ravenous on Parrak and then resurrected by his future selves on behalf of the CIA and regenerates into Macqueen.

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    • The Master says himself that it was the Time Lords that revived him for the Time War.

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    • This is all what happens in Ravenous 4. Plus it’s already been established anyway in the Gallifrey series that Narvin went back in time and sanctioned it before the Time War even began.

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    • This is all great discussion, but I believe we all agreed that assigning numbering to the incarnations is impossible. So, in terms of the topic of this thread, we just need to figure out how to separate and label the incarnations on the template, and, honestly, I think it's mostly good as it is.

      We have no idea if the Master ever regenerated before leaving Gallifrey, so grouping those appearances as "Early Life" makes sense. Then we have Dreyfus' Master, who could possibly be grouped with "Early Life", but we have no in-universe evidence of him being the First Master, so I would leave it as it is.

      War Chief has already been decided to be a debate for another thread, so we'll move right past that one. Next is Delgado, wherever he falls in the numbering.

      The original focus of the debate was on this next part. As stated above, I believe the template should follow the consistent narrative presented by most sources, and that we shouldn't let a single conflicting source force us to label everything as "Uncertain". I repeat my opinion that all sources are equally valid, but one source is not equal to many, at least in terms of structuring the wiki. So I support the next section continuing to be "Pratt" (unless we want to change it to "Pratt/Beevers"). "Pratt" eventually becomes "Ainley".

      If any section deserves to be "Uncertain", I would say it's the next one, because "Dust Breeding" and First Frontier both feature the Master losing his Trakenite body. I like the order they are in currently, though; if you're going to bend over backwards and fit both stories into one narrative, you can interpret it that "Dust Breeding" merely damaged the body, it was healed . . . somehow, and it regenerated in First Frontier, so I'm good with putting "John Smith" before "VNA".

      It's unclear if Gordon Tipple is supposed to be the Tzun Master or an unexplained incarnation, so I'm good with the next section being "Roberts". "Day of the Master" finally gave us a consistent narrative here, so we know "Mastermind" comes next, then "Macqueen", "Titan", "Jacobi," "Simm," and "Gomez" is generally free from debate.

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    • Schreibenheimer wrote: This is all great discussion, but I believe we all agreed that assigning numbering to the incarnations is impossible. So, in terms of the topic of this thread, we just need to figure out how to separate and label the incarnations on the template, and, honestly, I think it's mostly good as it is.

      We have no idea if the Master ever regenerated before leaving Gallifrey, so grouping those appearances as "Early Life" makes sense. Then we have Dreyfus' Master, who could possibly be grouped with "Early Life", but we have no in-universe evidence of him being the First Master, so I would leave it as it is.

      War Chief has already been decided to be a debate for another thread, so we'll move right past that one. Next is Delgado, wherever he falls in the numbering.

      The original focus of the debate was on this next part. As stated above, I believe the template should follow the consistent narrative presented by most sources, and that we shouldn't let a single conflicting source force us to label everything as "Uncertain". I repeat my opinion that all sources are equally valid, but one source is not equal to many, at least in terms of structuring the wiki. So I support the next section continuing to be "Pratt" (unless we want to change it to "Pratt/Beevers"). "Pratt" eventually becomes "Ainley".

      If any section deserves to be "Uncertain", I would say it's the next one, because "Dust Breeding" and First Frontier both feature the Master losing his Trakenite body. I like the order they are in currently, though; if you're going to bend over backwards and fit both stories into one narrative, you can interpret it that "Dust Breeding" merely damaged the body, it was healed . . . somehow, and it regenerated in First Frontier, so I'm good with putting "John Smith" before "VNA".

      It's unclear if Gordon Tipple is supposed to be the Tzun Master or an unexplained incarnation, so I'm good with the next section being "Roberts". "Day of the Master" finally gave us a consistent narrative here, so we know "Mastermind" comes next, then "Macqueen", "Titan", "Jacobi," "Simm," and "Gomez" is generally free from debate.

      Here, here.

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    • Schreibenheimer wrote: It's unclear if Gordon Tipple is supposed to be the Tzun Master or an unexplained incarnation, so I'm good with the next section being "Roberts".

      Whatever he is, I think it's extremely unlikely the Tipple Master is the Tzun Master, as A] he doesn't physically fit the description of the Tzun Master given in the VNAs, and B] Happy Endings apparently establishes that the Tzun nanites eventually fail the Master and he ends up reverting into Ainley. (Which is very convenient for writing the Master's biograhy in a chronological way, as it allows for Ainley's final end which turns him back into Beevers to be placed after the VNA Tzun Master, as is done on “The Master”.)

      And as for keeping the section entitled "Roberts"… meh. It doesn't matter if we do not quite know what the Old Master was: we know it's a different body than the Bruce Master, and played by a different actor. Ergo, the Roberts Master simply does not appear in The Eight Doctors, and it therefore feels weird to have said book in the "Roberts" section of the template.

      Also, future-proofing, people. I think it's only a matter of time before Big Finish, or someone, have a marketing coup of hiring Gordon Tipple again and finally making his Master a major presence in a story. If they don't do it, some novel will, someday. The point is that it's extremely improbable we've seen the last of the Old Master, in the long run; he's too famous an oddity not to be revisited.

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    • But isn't Gordon Tipple just meant to be Anthony Ainley's version, due to unavailability of Ainley himself?

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    • No, that was a common assumption back when, but since then, more behind-the-scenes information and photographs came out, and as it turns out the supposed resemblance to Ainley is very superficial (basically just the cut of the beard).

      Different costume, different face, the "glowing eyes" look nothing like they did in Survival and so are unlikely to be meant to be the same thing… and in his cut opening monologue (which can be found online somewhere, IIRC), Tipple didn't sound even remotely like Ainley.

      Gordon Tipple Dressed as the Master

      Does this look like the Ainley Master to you?

      So between all that and the fact that there's little in-universe room for it to be Ainley, I think we can consider this particular myth to be soundly refuted.

      I also seem to recall Ainley saying that, far from being unavailable, he would have loved to return, but was simply never asked to do so.

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    • Okay. Didn't know that.

      I just assumed because he is given somewhat a resemblance if you only see him from afar, which is what we do in the movie, that it was meant to be him.

      Even more because Ainley's cat-like eyes appear in the beginning of the McGann monologue.

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    • Of course he doesn't look like him up-close.

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    • I meant less in terms of physical resemblance, and more in terms of the fact that he has different make-up and a different costume. The voice thing, and Ainley not even being asked, are also fairly strong arguments against.

      I think if anything they just wanted "generic Master", not expecting viewers twenty years on to be scratching their heads as to precisely which Master that was.

      All in all, if you want to imagine it's Ainley in your headcanon, fine, but it's way too muddled both in terms of what's on-screen, and in terms of what the authorial intent may have been, for such an opinion to be anything more than speculation.

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    • No, no. I want the facts straight. If there's something that HAS an explanation given, I take that over "I want this to be true", which is what many people out there don't want (just look at the "Not My Doctor" fools that outright refuse S11 and Jodie). But if there is something that doesn't have a clear factual explanation as to "this is how it is" I am keen on giving my own explanation to fit things together.

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    • I agree wholeheartedly that The Eight Doctors should be removed from Roberts; I didn't even notice it was there. It's also listed in the "Incarnation Unclear" section, so I think this is just an honest mistake.

      It's been a good while since Happy Endings for me, but I don't remember it being quite as specific about what was going on with the Master as our Master article makes it out to be. I think it said that he was looking for a better body, but I don't remember it saying there was much wrong with the current one. Does anyone have a copy they can check? I definitely don't remember there being an implication he'd revert to Ainley, although that would make for a much better narrative through-line with "Dust Breeding" than the one I came up with, albeit in the opposite order.

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    • I again feel as though it would be better future-proofing to just make a Tipple Master row in the template. It would include two stories already (The Eight Doctors and The TV Movie), and let me remind you that the Dreyfus Master has a row all his own even though it only contains one story.

      But… wait. Could it be The Eight Doctors was in the Roberts section due to the trap that sets off in the TARDIS at the very beginning and makes the Doctor lose his memory, which is the work of the Master? It's, I suppose, possible that it was the Bruce Master who left the trap, though I'd previously assumed it was part of the Deathworm Morphant Master's interference with the TARDIS console prior to stealing Bruce's body.

      Pity about the possible misreporting of Happy Endings, at any rate. We'll have to check.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • There’s about three Masters in the Eight Doctors.

      Delgado during the Sea Devils

      Ainley shortly after Survival (not Tipple)

      An echo of Roberts immediately following the TV Movie

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    • Also about Happy Endings, hes specifically trying to clone an indestructible body and refers to the body as one stronger than his own, which of course it would be if it’s indestructible. So the Tzun incarnation is still Happy and healthy by the end of the novels, he’s just looking for a long-term form of Survival as knowing him he’ll burn through his new set off regenerations.

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    • I honestly wouldn't object to giving him his own category if no one else opposes it. My preference stated above remains the same since his behind-the-scenes physical appearance is not a valid source, but it's really no different from giving Dreyfus his own category despite having no evidence that he's regenerated since leaving Gallifrey.

      EDIT: Removing my opinions on The Eight Doctors, which I obviously don't remember as well as SarahJaneFan.

      That fits my memory of Happy Endings as well. Seems the Master page should be fixed regardless of any decision in this thread.

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    • Okay, well, that's that for the "Tzun Master reverts into Ainley" factoid, even though I'll still keep the fact in my personal headcanon and invite others to do the same, it makes much more sense of everything.

      But, regarding The Eight Doctors… did we read the same book here? I very distinctly recall a scene that obviously leads straight into the TV Movie, wherein which an unspecified Master travels to the planet of the Morgs, buys some Deathworms from them, and experiments on one of them until it is strong enough to support his Time Lord mind while also possessing a bunch of neat superpowers on the side. He then ponders where to go to get himself pseudo-executed in such a way that his Morphant-occupied ashes will end up in the Doctor's TARDIS, and hits upon the idea of getting himself killed by the Daleks. That has gotta be Tipple, surely.

      @Schreibenheimer: I agree that it's worth remembering that Template:Master_stories isn't exactly in-universe to begin with. It's a list of stories, and wherever available, the Masters are identified by the last name of the actor who portrayed them… not to mention there are some invalid sources in it!

      …Speaking of which, however, is it fair to characterize Curse of Fatal Death as "deliberately being set outside the DWU"? AFAIR Moffat actually went to great lengths to make it work as a plausible continuation of the TV series, continuity-wise. It's invalid to us because we disallow parodies in general, but that's different from making any statements as to the authorial intent itself. Is there any chance we might update that text alongside the other edits to the template, while we're at it?

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    • The Doctor hears the Master laughing as the traps springs, indicating that he’s present in some form, but that’s up for debate.

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    • Scrooge MacDuck wrote: Okay, well, that's that for the "Tzun Master reverts into Ainley" factoid, even though I'll still keep the fact in my personal headcanon and invite others to do the same, it makes much more sense of everything.

      But, regarding The Eight Doctors… did we read the same book here? I very distinctly recall a scene that obviously leads straight into the TV Movie, wherein which an unspecified Master travels to the planet of the Morgs, buys some Deathworms from them, and experiments on one of them until it is strong enough to support his Time Lord mind while also possessing a bunch of neat superpowers on the side. He then ponders where to go to get himself pseudo-executed in such a way that his Morphant-occupied ashes will end up in the Doctor's TARDIS, and hits upon the idea of getting himself killed by the Daleks.

      I thought that was Ainley. Is there a way it could not be based on the evidence of the book?

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    • Give me a moment, I'll go check.

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    • "While the Doctor was battling depression, his greatest enemy, the Master, was teetering on the verge of madness. His descent into savagery on the Cheetah planet after his last encounter with the Doctor had tipped the balance of a mind always prone to paranoia over into uncontrollable obsession. Having now regained enough control to make his escape, the Master was determined to destroy the Doctor once and for all, even if it meant he had to die in the process."

      This is an extract from the scene where the Master swallows the Deathworm Morphant. He then travels to Skaro and goads the Daleks into putting him on Trial.

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    • Schreibenheimer
      Schreibenheimer removed this reply because:
      Someone else posted first and was more correct than I was.
      21:16, November 7, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Hm… SarahJaneFan beat me to tracing the passage. Well, the novel does state that Survival was the Master's last encounter with the Doctor, which is bothersome if you want a unified timeline that includes the VNAs… But let's not forget that it does not say how much time has passed since Cheetah World for the Master, just that he hasn't run into the Doctor since.

      So while I obviously don't think that's what Uncle Terry had in mind when writing the sequence, it's plausible that the Master has stolen a different, temporary body in the meantime, possibly in an effort to get rid of the Cheetah Virus.

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    • I guess he could have had the deathworm in him the whole time since then. He obviously didn't completely die in the meantime, and I don't think there's any suggestions that he switched bodies at any point since then, just did a lot of jiggery-pokery with the one he had.

      That last bit does seem to suggest that he went right to Skaro, though, which is a nightmare to reconcile with the VNAs. Wow, that was salty of them; writing off their continuity in the very first novel.

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    • Mastermind says that the Daleks ambushed the Master in Egypt anyway rather than the Master going to Skaro intentionally so it was never gonna fit.

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    • Well, going with the words-as-written, it's definitely clear that it has to be shortly after "Survival," but not 100% clear that he's going straight to Skaro (even if that's clearly the intent, they don't outright say it, unless it's after your quote). I guess that's our wiggle room?

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    • The word "Skaro" isn't even mentioned in The Eight Doctors; it's only said that the Master decides that "all he had to do now was get killed".

      Yes, come to think of it. That works beautifully. Since Dicks tells us that he comes up with the "get myself killed so I can be reborn in the Doctor's body" scheme under the influence of the Cheetah madness, i's entirely possible for him to give up on this plan temporarily once he gets cured of the Cheetah Virus as per other offscreen sources. He'd then keep the Deathworm Morphant throughout his later existence as Ainley (and possibly the Tzun regeneration). He eventually end up as the half-decaying Tipple Master, either as the last incarnation of the cycle started by the Tzun, or through Morphant-aided body-hopping after Ainley is reverted to Beevers, depending on what account you're going with. That Master is then coincidentally ambushed by the Daleks in Egypt, and since he still has the Morphant, goes "what the hell, guess I'm going through with that scheme after all".

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    • “With a grimace of distaste, the Master picked up the glass dish, tilted his head back, opened his mouth and let the deathworm slither down his throat. His TARDIS landed. Opening the doors, the Master stepped out into a metal plain, surrounded by metal towers. Behind him, his TARDIS, obeying pre-set instructions, dematerialised. It would be safe in the space-time continuum until he recovered it. Alone and unafraid, the Master stood in the centre of the metal plain and watched the metallic creatures gliding towards him. They gathered around him in a menacing circle, still too astonished to speak. The Master threw back his head and laughed. 'Yes, it's me - your old ally, the Master! What have you got to say for yourselves, you stupid tin boxes!"

      And then his reappearance near the end of the book. Granted Skaro isn’t named but it’s defintielg Daleks that he’s surrounded by when he lands wherever he does.

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    • The wiggle rooms are the great spots when there are disputing evidences, as when something is not outright stated, we can easily wiggle it around so that the conflicting things connect anyway. :)

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    • Bugger. There is that.

      But note: the story tastefully cuts there. It is not theoretically impossible for the Master to make it out of this Dalek encounter alive. What say that unexpectedly, the Daleks actually do want to rekindle their old alliance for a new scheme?

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    • If we were talking on a timeline page, I’d agree 100% and say that’s gold. But on the main article it’s just speculation and conjecture, the same sort that’s led people to believe that the Tzun Master was dying in Happy Endings when the actual novel suggests nothing of the sort.

      I just don’t think we should be knitting together contradictory narratives on the main page unless there’s some kind of source that makes sense of things, like for example Planet of Dust and Day of the Master pretty much clarifies the Master's Post TV movie timeline and makes sense of all the seemingly contradictory accounts of what happened to him following the movie.

      As I say, personally I’d agree with you, but looking at things from the point of view of what’s best for the accuracy of the article and what fits best in line with the rules of wiki, I think the “according to one account” solution, is the best one until further notice.

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    • I'd say the article could be worded in such a way that it makes a jump from one factual source to another, making the stories sort-of connected to one another without actually adding in any speculations.

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    • I wasn't especially suggesting we use this theory for the "Biography" section of the page, I was instead justifying that it's still perfectly possible for Tipple to exist separate from Ainley in-universe, thereby further justifying a separate "Tipple" row in "Master stories".

      (About which suggestion I again wish to remind you all of the fact that it's practically a given, unless he dies tomorrow, that Big Finish, or someone, will someday hire Gordon Tipple back. That's just what they do. For God's sake, we just got a standalone Sil movie.)

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    • I think if we can identify clear evidence that Tipple is a distinct incarnation/body/Master in his own write and that wasn’t just a body double for a pre-existing Master then he should certainly have a section of his own, and it’d be wrong not to. However as far as I’m aware so far, the only clear evidence we have of him being a distinct Master is from behind the scenes content, which we can’t use as a source.

      There’s certainly nothing preventing him from existing, but there’s also not a lot to suggest that he does. Again from an in-Universe perspective as I myself personally consider Tipple to be Beevers in a stolen body.

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    • I mean, Beevers in a stolen body would count as an incarnation just as much as the other stolen body incarnations we already have. We just don't have enough in-universe information to say it's not the same body as one we already have an incarnation listed for.

      Regardless, I think we'd be safe to move The Two Masters out of "Uncertain" and into "Ainley", as none of us debated the text on that.

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    • I wasn’t saying he wouldn’t count, I was saying that I consider him to be Beevers in a stolen body, but there’s no in-Universe evidence to say Tipple as a Master, whether a regeneration or a stolen body actually exists or if he’s Ainley or another incarnation we know of. So we’re on the same page about it.

      And yeah, I agree that the Eight Doctors (assuming that’s what you meant rather than Two Masters which involves Pre-Deadly Assassin Beevers and Macqueen) should go in the Ainley section.

      Post-Survival should go something like this:

      "According to one account the Master was driven insane by his experience on the Cheetah Planet and sought revenge on the Doctor. He acquired a Deathworm Morphant and made his way to Skaro where he was put on trial by the Daleks and subsequently executed" (PROSE: The Eight Doctors (novel), The Novel of the Film)

      "According to another account, the Master lived signficantly longer following his escape from the Cheetah Planet, instead seeking ways to prolong his life and cure himself from the Cheetah virus. He had many more encounters with the Doctor and Ace. Etc etc (The PDAs and any other Post Survival Ainley story that doesn’t fit with the EDAs or VNAs)

      "One account suggests that the Master was transported to Earth immediatley after escaping the cheetah planet and was stranded. He later made a deal with the Tzun and had his Trakenite body transformed into a Time Lord one using Tzun nanites. He was then killed by Ace and regenerated into a new body. (PROSE: First Frontier

      Then we have the Tzun Master section that recounts the rest of First Frontier, Housewarming and Happy Endings. After that we have a section for "John Smith", which again says "According to one account the Master lost his Trakenite body to the warp core etc".

      Which is pretty much how the article is already set out, but there’s some bits that could probably be improved especially as there’s a whole bit that says “either this happened or that happened after Survival” which could probably be removed entirely.

      It’s particularly important that we make sure the information we present on the page is accurate too, as the Happy Endings entry says that the Tzun Nanites fail, which as we’ve established doesn’t happen at all.

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    • I'd write that first section differently to allow for the fact that The Eight Doctors doesn't explicitly say the Daleks put him on trial and killed him immediately after his arrival. Something like:

      According to one account the Master was driven insane by his experience on the Cheetah Planet. Seeking revenge on the Doctor, he hatched a scheme to leave his corrupted body for the Doctor's own, which would also grant him the Doctor's remaining regenerations. He acquired a Deathworm Morphant and made his way to Skaro, where he intended to goad the Daleks into executing him. (PROSE: The Eight Doctors)

      Although another account does state that an incarnation of the Master was put on trial by the Daleks on Skaro and executed, subsequently escaping in the form of the Deathworm Morphant, (TV: Doctor Who, PROSE: The Novel of the Film) many show that the Trakenite Master's adventures continued for a long time after his experience on the Cheetah World before his body was killed by the Daleks.

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    • Yes, I meant The Eight Doctors. Thank you for understanding.

      Going back to the template, this refresher on said novel has changed my opinion on a Tipple section. Without a "full" appearance in The Eight Doctors, he essentially becomes equivalent to the Clements Master from "Sympathy for the Devil", who says a single line then regenerates. We don't give him a section, so we shouldn't give Tipple a section either. Not only that, but I don't believe we should even list Doctor Who under "Incarnation Unclear". The story is already listed as a Roberts appearance, so I don't feel we need to devote space to Tipple at all unless he shows up in his own legitimate appearance in the future.

      In violation of policy, BananaClownMan has made edits before this thread has been closed. I have undone them. However, I will open one of the edits he made up for debate: the placement of "I Am the Master". Big Finish's production notes for it state it happens after "The Keeper of Traken," which means that the Doctor and Master are meeting out of order for no good in-story reason, but I believe we should respect stated production intent. However, I don't believe we have any way of knowing whether the Master in this story is the "Dust Breeding" or "Mastermind" Master, hence its original placement in "Incarnation Unclear".

      BananaClownMan moved the story to the "Dust Breeding" Master. Is there any strong evidence supporting this over "Mastermind"?

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    • The placement of I am the Master is completely ambiguous. I believe that some people speculated that despite Big Finish’s intention that it comes after Keeper of Traken it actually took place beforehand as he considers stealing a body and some believed it seemed as though he hadn’t done it before.

      I don’t recall having that belief when I listened to the story myself, but I’ll have to give it another listen just to check.

      Technically speaking, if we assume that a post-Traken setting is indeed accurate, it could in theory take place in a number of gaps where the Master is back in his crispy form:

      Between The Five Doctors and The Velvet Dark - The Time Lords stripped him of his Trakenite body after his failure in The Death Zone and then in the Velvet Dark he steals a little bit of Regeneration energy from every incarnation of the Doctor to regenerate back into Ainley again.

      Between Planet of Fire and A Town Called Eternity - The Master is crispified at the end of Planet of Fire, then uses the Fountain of Youth to heal his injuries in A Town Called Eternity.

      After Dust Breeding

      Between Mastermind and Planet of Dust

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    • Yeah, I'll check "I Am the Master" as well if I have time this weekend. Honestly, if there is even a bit of in-story evidence indicating it's OG Crispy, I think we should take it, as it's likely the only answer we'll ever have.

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    • Did not know about those yet other temporarily post-Ainley Crispies. Good lord, but this is getting ridiculous.

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    • Just checked through The Velvet Dark again and it seems to set an interesting precedent for the Ainley Master. I’ll let you make of it what you will, but it appears that Ainley goes from being a stolen body to a new regeneration between The Five Doctors and Planet of Fire.

      ‘I went to Gallifrey to help you, Doctor,’ he said with iron in his tone. ‘Begged by the Time Lords to rescue you and your past selves from the Death Zone. They promised me forgiveness. A new regenerative cycle.’ He paused and then spat, ‘But they exiled me instead!

      They had ripped his last body from him, and he had only managed to hold on to himself with a barely conceivable strength of will. He consisted only of dark now. He had raged at the indignity of it all, at the unfairness.

      They took back his TARDIS and tried to reprogram her. But she remembered him, searched him out. He had been so relieved when he’d found the old grandfather clock in the woods one day. Unfortunately he had not been able to cross the threshold, some limiting program that held. He’d pushed and pushed, and had nearly died in the attempt. But to his amazement, when he came to, he’d been confronted by the deathly grinning visage of his last life. His TARDIS had created a construct which was, in some sense, his Watcher, a form he could manipulate and, partly, inhabit. He’d realised how he could use it as a vessel. So he sent it in his TARDIS to watch for advantages, to search for help.

      I need a corporeal body, Doctor. This dark is merely what I could remember.’ There was a terrible pause. ‘So I’m going to steal one of your lives.’ He stopped to let the fact register, like a man who has perfected his megalomaniacal statements. ‘There may even be enough of a connection between us for me to reoccupy a physical resemblance of my old body.

      Suddenly realised how the Master intended to do this. Twelve mirrors in total; 12 regenerations. He couldn’t just steal a regeneration from a Time Lord, he had to channel it through all his previous lives until it came to what he was now. It was quite a risk, but also quite ingenious. The Master had lost none of his cruelty or shrewdness. He realised with horror that this might actually work.

      As soon as he fell it shot straight into the Master on his throne. He seethed and hissed with electricity, his body steaming and crackling. The metal phoenix behind the throne, wings spread grandly, watched the Master’s rebirth from the shadows

      He tried to steal one of my remaining lives.’ He looked down at the velvet-clad man. Those saturnine features and that trimmed goatee were unmistakable.

      The Doctor managed a smile. ‘Actually, he stole a small piece from every one of his past regenerations. That’s what maintained him.’ He tapped both his hearts. ‘I think I’m all still here. Quite healed.’ He paused to consider. ‘And if I didn’t know better, I’d suspect he knew that this wouldn’t work. That he expected to lose. It rejected him, you see.

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    • Aaaaaargh! why, writers? why?

      Anyone's guess how the frick this can in any way be made to fit with Dust Breeding.

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    • Actually I think might have found a potential solution, that comes in "A Town Called Eternity". The Master, after suffering from major burns during the events of Planet of Fire, discovers the Fountain of Youth and restores Tremas's body.

      The Master stood in the fountain of youth, the flow of water passing over his entire body. He could feel the invigorating properties of the water working their way through him, strange energies even a Time Lord could not understand. He sighed ecstatically as his body, that feeble humanoid body too weak for a being such as he, was restored to full health.

      Could it perhaps be that the Fountain of Youth restored him physically back to a point in his timeline where he still had the Trakenite body? I don’t think that’s the intention (in fact this was written several years before The Velevet Dark) but considering the Master himself doesn’t understand how it works, who knows?

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    • Nah, I don't think so. The very fact that a Time Lord doesn't understand it, combined with the description of what the Fountain does as "invigorating properties", make it clear that the Fountain isn't literally turning back time in any fashion, it's just healing magic/life-force/what-have-you.

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    • I mean, it's still Ainley, so I see the story as essentialy zero-sum. Yeah, the mechanics are wonky, and it's weird that he still has Trakenite DNA afterward, but we've seen a Time Lord regenerate into a bird. I really don't believe we should overthink this.

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    • Given how many times the master keeps reverting back and forth between his crispy appearance, i would suggest making Beevers the main section and all possessions a subsection (like suggested above, although maybe a generic name "out of regeneation"/"end of cycle"/"fight for survival" or something).

      One advantage is that we can put all the conflicting/unclear case under Beevers still without having to clarify more than that. (Five Master's crispy, Tipple, Eight Doctors, I am the Master, Master(To confirm but I don't think it must be before the movie), ...)

      Regarding the Tipple debate, although it conflicts with established continuity by VNA, Eight Doctors really seems to imply that Ainley=Tipple; and furthermore, the game "destiny of the doctor" was intended to lead directly to the TV movie with Ainley sent on trial.

      One note: until last month, all appearances following the movie were put in the Roberts sub. That's why you could still see the DWM preacher or some Morphant Beevers.

      One example whould be:

      • Delgado
      • Survival
        • Beevers [1] (Two Masters, Assassin, Legacy, Dustbreeding, Mastermind, I am the Master, ...)
        • Ainley
        • VNA
        • Tipple [2]
        • Roberts
        • DWM
      • MacQueen

      ...

      • unclear: (Harvest of time) [because of the female Master written a decade before Gomez was cast]

      And inside the template, much like we do with Template:Regeneration_stories, we add something like the following:

      According to one account, the incarnation portrayed by Roger Delgado may be the same as the one portrayed by Peter Pratt.

      According to one account, the incarnation portrayed by Gordon Tipple is the one portrayed by Anthony Ainley.

      While fighting to extend his life after the end of his regeneration cycle, many bodies were possessed by the Beevers incarnation but all kept somehow reverting to his real being.{{{2}}}

      The last bit is a phrasing used by Big Finish

      (e.g. Dust breeding part 4:

      DOCTOR: It stripped his borrowed body from him. Degenerated him. This is the Master as he really is.")

      I don't want to impose my opinion but I hope it could address all concerns in this thread (related to the cripsy master raised as per the OP's wishes)?

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    • RingoRoadagain wrote: and furthermore, the game "Destiny of the Doctor" was intended to lead directly to the TV movie with Ainley sent on trial.

      No, not buying that. There's a common fan rumour to this effect, but I don't think it's corroborated by anything in-universe, and doesn't make any sense as such: getting himself executed by the Daleks after having swallowed the Deathworm is clearly a scheme of the Master's; he's planned all this through as a way to get into the TARDIS and steal the Doctor's body. Whereas he sure doesn't look happy about being arrested at the end of Destiny. So this looks like speculation to me unless there's any official confirmation that it was intended to lead into the movie.

      (Besides which, it completely conflicts with the much more explicit account given in The Eight Doctorss of how the Ainley Master gets put on trial by the Daleks.)

      That aside, your solution mostly sounds good as the template is concerned, though for the biography section on The Master and the linking templates, we'd have to brainstorm something else (but that is technically beyond the bounds of what this particular thread is about).

      Do you agree about implementing my suggested slight rewording of the invalid section's header, also?

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    • Yeah, I really don't hate grouping everything between "The Deadly Assassin" and "The Two Masters" into one big category, then subdividing. I stand by Tipple not needing a subcategory due to not having a story unique to him, though.

      I have not read Harvest of Time. My instinct, though, is that it's not necessary to list her on the template, just going by some quick research on the novel. From what I'm seeing, there are a bunch of alternate Masters in it, and the only notable aspect of the female one is that she's female (although this was actually published only one year prior to Missy, not ten). If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.

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    • @Scrooge, just so we are on the same page, you would like

      From stories set outside the "mainstream" DWU

      instead of

      From stories deliberately set outside the "mainstream" DWU

      is that correct?

      (I am not using Destiny as a narrative source on Tipple in the thread, it was just for some more food-for-thoughts/background: i think Dicks stated it somewhere but I never tried to source it tbh. You are perfectly right to call me out on this.)

      (My bad about Harvest, I misread it as "2003" iso "2013", thanks for the correction)

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    • RingoRoadagain wrote: @Scrooge, just so we are on the same page, you would like

      From stories set outside the "mainstream" DWU

      instead of

      From stories deliberately set outside the "mainstream" DWU

      is that correct?

      Not quite; I would like it to be "From stories not considered part of the DWU by this Wiki", with a link to T:VS. Again, Curse of Fatal Death is not in any objective sense set outside of the DWU, since Moffat meant for it to be part of the DWU. And statements like "mainstream DWU" are very relative. It is simply that we as a Wiki choose to tag it as "invalid" and not mix its information with other stuff because it suits us.

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    • Thanks for the clarification, I would agree with that.

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    • Having read the replies since my last, I'm quite confused. This is both because I am somewhat unfamiliar with most of the material being discussed, and because of the confusing nature of the contradictions themselves. If it isn’t too much too ask, I think it would be helpful if someone could summarize what the conflicting accounts are. (This would probably be beneficial towards the editing of articles/templates in the future too.)

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    • Contradiction Area #1:

      We don't know what incarnation of the Master's original 12-shot regeneration cycle the Delgado Master was. In The Deadly Assassin, we are introduced to a skeletal “Crispy Master” played by Peter Pratt, and who was later redesigned and recast as Geoffrey Beevers, though it's usually understood that Beevers and Pratt are playing the same guy.

      Question: did Delgado's Master decay into the Pratt/Beevers Master, or was there a regeneration in-between that existed as its own thing for a while before turning into a spooky scary skeleton?

      The comic story Doorway to Hell shows Delgado beginning to regenerate, though it doesn't show into who. The Big Finish audio The Two Masters shows the Master being burnt into the Pratt Crispy Master by his future self, and what's more, it's clearly shown that the Master who gets burned isn't Delgado, but a different incarnation already played by Beevers. Ergo Delgado is either the Twelfth Master or earlier, while the Crispy Masters are various stages of decay of the Thirteenth Master.

      On the other hand, the Eighth Doctor Adventures novels, in Legacy of the Daleks, show the Master being burned into the Pratt Crispy Master in completely different circumstances not involving his future self but rather Susan Foreman. And that Master is not a non-Delgado Thirteenth Master, but rather Delgado himself. One might think this means the novel says that Delgado is the Thirteenth Master, but that's not actually the case, as a line mentions that the injury is such that "no regeneration" would save him from it, allowing that he still could be the Twelfth Master or earlier.

      Ergo: are the Crispy Masters a decayed form of the Delgado Master (with there not actually being a "proper" Thirteenth Master?), or of a Thirteenth Master into whom Delgado regenerated long before coming to Tersurus?

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    • Does Legacy actually show him get burned crispy?? Because according to the paragraph I originally posted, he does not, but rather is blown out of his TARDIS and gets rescued by the Goth.

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    • Or is that purely speculation. I don't own Legacy, so I don't know.

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    • There's two things.

      First Susan flays his mind with her psychic powers, reducing it to the ball of concentrated hatred (devoid of Delgado's silky charisma) portrayed in The Deadly Assassin, and blows him out of his TARDIS and onto Tersurus.

      Then, in a separate scene, as they stand together on Tersurus, Susan asks the Master to surrender the Dalek weapon he's stolen, lest she be forced to destroy it with him still clinging to it. In his diminished state of mind, the Master refuses to let go, so Susan shoots the device while the Master's still holding it, causing an out-of-control explosion that warps and burns the Master's flesh into Crispy form in a way from which regeneration cannot save him.

      Then, after Susan leaves aboard his TARDIS, he is found by Goth in precisely the state in which he begins The Deadly Assassin in yet a separate scene.

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    • Hmmm... doesn't make sense then.

      We would need a separate new Master story that takes place after he is rescued which shows him regaining his health somehow if it is to make sense with Doorway to Hell. If not we conclude that Doorway is an alternate timeline, that is.

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    • Because according to Goth's own page he finds the Master decayed and dying and the next paragraph on the article jumps right to the events of The Deadly Assassin. But who is to say something didn't happen to the Master in-between and he just happened to return to decayed crispy form at the time of TDA...

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    • Time occurs differently to you when you're a time traveller, mind you.

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    • We don't do "alternate timelines", we do "other accounts".

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    • Lots of pages have "alternate timelines" in them.

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    • Yes, but that's when we're officially told that something is an alternate timeline. An alternate timeline is an actual in-universe thing; you can't go speculating about something being an alternate timeline any more than you can go speculating that this or that individual is secretly a Time Lord.

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    • Now I was merely saying that if it happens that we find out it is alternate, not that I would say it was.

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    • CONTRADICTION #2

      in "The Velvet Dark", the Matser lost his Trakenite body after the events of "the Five Master" and manages through a Crispy Watcher to steal enegery from the Doctor and actually regenerates into an Ainley incarantion.

      In the New Adventures range of stories, the Tzun race rebuilt his Cheetah race-corrupted Trakenite body into a pure Time Lord with full cycle using nanomachines. He regenerates into a new incarnation after Ace killed him in First Frontier.

      In Dustbreeding audio, he lost his Trakenite body to the monster of the week month and goes back his "real self" Beevers.

      The Eight Doctor Adventures discard it entirely and has the Ainley Master still insane from the Cheetah race get a Deathworm Morphant immediately after the Classic Serices without meeting the Doctor in the meantime and goes to see the Daleks, leadin to the TV Movie shortly after.

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    • Paragraph #3 (not really a contradiction)

      The Planet of Dust audio states that no matter how many body he wears he always reverted to he Beevers husk. Among the way he tired to extend his life are mentioned the Traken Source, The Cheetah race (first time i hear it would be a postivie thing tbh), the Tzun and a Deathworm Morphant.

      That's the closest we have to the Tzun body failing too as far as i know.

      Eventually it is Beevers who got killed, received a new regeneration cycle and resurrected into McQueen.

      That's why i believe it would be simpler to count all of those as subsection of Beevers.

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    • So basically every time he gained a new form he always seemed to revert back into the Beevers form?

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    • Could that be a result of his (I think I remember this being a thing) desire to always find new ways of regenerating, basically wasting his original cycle by burning through his incarnations. Could that not mean that it took a massive toll on him as a whole and therefore inevitably always resuming his burned form no matter how many times he tried to regain his healthiness.

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    • We should probably get back to this thread's topic: the template. I am good with Ringo's proposal of grouping the entire crispy/body-hopping part of his life. Does anyone have any objections to this?

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    • I don't see any problem with this. Fact is that he was hopping from body to body, basically just shapeshifting. His actual incarnation is the one portrayed by Pratt/Beevers.

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    • Danniesen wrote: His actual incarnation is the one portrayed by Pratt/Beevers.

      Well, that's only true in some accounts. Again, TV calls Ainley a "regeneration", The Velvet Dark thinks he originally wasn't but shows him turning that body into a proper regeneration, and the Tzun Master is unquestionably a regeneration. But yes, on the broader point, I agree that this probably the best way to order the (already partially OOU) template.

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    • How can he turn a shapeshift non-regeneration into a regeneration later on?

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    • He loses his Trakenite body, turning back into Beevers, then uses regeneration energy stolen from the Doctor via a complicated process to properly regenerate into a body identical to Tremas's form, which he's gotten pretty used to.

      Also, I of course get what you mean, but please try to use more precise terminology for how the Master gets bodies, this is all confusing enough as it is. Even if the Doctor calling Beevers->Ainley a "regeneration" doesn't convince you, it's not shapeshifting, but body-hopping. Shapeshifting, in fact, means precisely the opposite of what you mean: it's usually employed to mean warping the shape of one's body around, precisely as opposed to transmigrating from one physical body to another. It's not usually described in those terms but regular Time Lord regeneration is shapeshifting.

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    • Thanks. I only have restricted knowledge of other medias' stories since I only have the TV show to fully go by. It helps to have you people explain what exactly happens between TV stories.

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    • I expended my proposal on my sandbox.

      I put the pre-TVM incarnation of "The Eight Doctors" novel in both Ainley and Tipple, I think the opening stement of the template is clear enough on the matter.

      Of course I am open to remarks.

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    • Looks very good to me. Perhaps the opening statement could explain why the "keeps reverting to Beevers" bit is relevant to the template more explicitly? (i.e. "Hence, this table cannot be strictly chronological", or something like that.)

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    • First off, thanks for concisely explaining what the different accounts are. I appreciate it. Secondly, I think RingoRoadagain's table looks good, and Scrooge MacDuck's suggestion is too. It's very good at conveying what is generally supported, which is that the Master was on his last incarnation, but kept changing bodies.

      By the way, if this is what we're going to do, how will this affect the templates that link to different Masters (e.g. {{Roberts}} )? I do think it's reasonable to keep separate links to the different part of the page due to how drastically different they are. Also, I noticed the child Master from Titan comics doesn't even have a template. And maybe we want a Beevers template that could function the same as Pratt's?

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    • Well, regarding a {{Beevers}} template, I personally wouldn't mind separating Pratt from Beevers but when I suggested it earlier, the overall sentiment was that there's virtually no evidence that they should be treated as separate versions of the Master. Beevers is a recast of Pratt, no different from Bradley's First Doctor, is the general idea.

      Of course, since Pratt played the role once (albeit as its originator) while Beevers has played it a gajillion times, shouldn't the (singular) linking-template for Crispy be {{Beevers}}? Ehh… maybe. But for something buried in source code, I don't know if it's worth the effort to go change all that.

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    • Not that I don't want to discuss Category:The Master templates redirects, but these are worth a thread of their own like done here or there.

      As written there by a caretaker: "No master templates should be created without community discussion" and this one is specifically about the Master Stories one.

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    • Alright. I mentioned that because the decision of this thread's issue could affect that too.

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    • Pratt and Beevers being the exact same incarnation with Pratt only ever portraying him once, I fully agree that the template should stay as Template:Beevers, given that he portrays him many times.

      It would have been a harder decision if both had only portrayed him once.

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    • Ah, but there's the thing: there is no such thing as {{Beevers}}. The template used for the Mouldy Master(s) is, in fact, {{Pratt}}, at the moment. And while it indeed doesn't one-hundred-percent make sense, I don't think it's worth the trouble of changing all the instances of the template even though its a BTS convenience thing that readers never have to see.

      Besides, someday Big Finish may create stories with their not-yet-crispied Thirteenth Master played by Beevers is featured; if that happens, I think the sanest thing to do would be to create a new section on The Master separate from “A body in decay”, allowing for a reader to either move directly from “UNIT years” to “A body in decay” to get the Legacy of the Daleks story, or to read through the "Thirteenth incarnation" (or whatever we call it) first so as to get the Big Finish experience.

      And in such a case, we'd be very clever to have kept {{Beevers}} available to link to that section, where {{Pratt}} can only mean Crispy.

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    • One thing is for certain. The BBC haven't made it easy for us.

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    • Alright, so it sounds like templates should be considered a separate discussion. Does anyone have any dissenting opinions against/constructive criticism toward Ringo's suggestion? I, at least, am happy with that outcome.

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    • I'm of the opinion that making Ainley and others subsections of Beevers isn't particularly helpful for readers or for our overall archiving of Dr Who. The problem with the current singular [The Master] page, IMO, is that it forces all stories involving the Master to be covered in a single, linear "History" section.

      Relevant to this discussion, there is an unmentioned story which features for a time the Ainley Master reverting to Crispy before gaining his body again.

      Being knocked unconscious by the temporal acceleration hadn’t given him the chance to immerse himself fully in the healing pool of the Source of Traken, and now the fleeting initial effects had worn off... with all that that entailed. Once again, he was forced to deal with the familiar side-effect: the acceleration of his decay and devolution, his inevitable, final end. Within his ink-black suit staggered the withered, emaciated creature that was all that remained of his Time Lord body, Tremas’s form long rotted and gone.'The Quantum Archangel
      He gets better.

      In all accounts of the Master is there still a distinct enough difference between their various forms? Regardless of whether "Crispy" is wearing the same body that once housed Delgado, there is still a clear dividing line between the two. Ainley isn't a different regeneration, yet there is still a clear difference between him and Crispy. Same with Roberts, especially in recent years now that Roberts has had several stories by himself.

      If the Master were as an overall entity covered not in an entirely linear fashion but according to each distinct "form", "incarnation" in the general non-Time-Lord-sense (for as a result of desperate survival the Master isn't always a Time Lord)... well, at the very least it would solve the problem of I Am The Master (because the story could just be placed in the "undated events" section of "The Master (The Deadly Assassin)".

      A thought.

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    • Sorry if I am misinterpreting your message but it appears to me that you are talking about the main Master page while we are only talking about the Master Stories template.

      Or are you suggesting that we keep it as it is since we already have "I am the Master" in incarnation unclear? (if we do, then I believe "the five Master / Horrible Showmen" and "Master" should be added to this section)

      Do you think we would need a section dedicated to the Yee Jee Tso master from "Mastermind"? Should we make one for each known possessed bodies similar to the Roberts one?

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    • I should be the one saying sorry; this is a very long discussion to be barging into. I was mistaken that this thread was in part about the other big Master template, and thus slightly more relevant to the The Master page. Nonetheless, I still think the fused nature of this wiki's Master coverage is a relevant point because it makes Template:Master stories the only available lists of appearances for many specific characters (such as The Master, The Master, The Master, Missy, or The Master). And therefore, well, this thread is important, lol.

      In terms of the story template, I believe the current formulation is fine. The matter's already been thoroughly examined, but--to use a new analogy--I believe that keeping/making "Pratt" a subsection of "Delgado" would be equivalent to using The Lying Old Witch in the Wardrobe to remove Destiny of the Daleks from a template listing all Romana stories, not an overall helpful distinction.

      If we are, I do, thinking of the stories template as equivalent to a "lists of appearances", I would argue that The Quantum Archangel belongs in the "prose" section of "Pratt" due to the Master temporarily reverting to that form for a sizable chunk of the novel, but that rather goes against how Dust Breeding is treated. ...

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    • At the moment my proposal for addressing the issues raised in this thread (delgado vs pratt, ...) is available on my sandbox page:

      I am not suggesting making pratt a subsection of delgado but making Pratt/Beevers and each of the main possessed bodies a subsection of a new "end of regeneration cycle" one. As you noticed, some stories are difficult to pin down precisely on Beevers timeline.

      I don't know if we should do something similar with the other Master related topics but I don't think it should be debated here.

      My proposal would have a short explanation of the different accounts at the top, much like Template:Regeneration stories explains why "The War Games" is not included in it. Whatever the conclusion of this thread, i believe some explanation would be required for the template being debated.

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    • Looks good

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    • I am thoroughly against including all of the Ainley appearances as part of the Pratt/Beavers lineage, it feels reductive to say the least.

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    • Looking at the proposed template box, I think it might be a good idea to make it more clear in the top section that there are conflicting accounts. Right now, it just says "one account".

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    • OttselSpy25 wrote: I am thoroughly against including all of the Ainley appearances as part of the Pratt/Beavers lineage, it feels reductive to say the least.

      But that's not what Ringo's proposal does. The overall heading for the section makes no reference to Pratt/Beevers. It's simply grouping that entire time period together because,

      1) The Master keeps getting deep fried, then healing/getting a new body. I think we were up to five different times at our last count? (Not counting each of the "Mastermind" bodies as a separate instance, or there would be a bunch more.) Two of those times were in the middle of the "Ainley" period, and one of them was even called a regeneration; it just happened to end up with the same appearance as his previous stolen body. So, all sources being equal, there's not just one Ainley incarnation. This lets us just group them all by recognizable appearance and be done with it.
      2) It is unclear what order some incarnations occur in. This shows that our ordering is, at best, an educated guess.
      3) The entire existence of some incarnations is contradicted by some accounts. The Eight Doctors implies that Ainley goes straight into the TV movie, ignoring the New Adventures and, in turn, being ignored by Big Finish.

      So, yes, it may be reductive, but it's because the actual narrative we have is so convoluted as to require reduction.

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    • One alternative I have would be to have the same as my current proposal, still grouping by appearances due to all complicated accounts on this part of the Master's timeline.

      BUT we get rid of the "end of cycle" section and put its subsections as main sections (i.e. Pratt/Beevers; Ainley; VNA; Tipple; Roberts; DWM). I think the current top description would still explain this well enough to the common reader.

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    • Concerning Ainley, I have just realized that if this whole thing wasn't complicated enough, Birth of the Renegade shows that the early regeneration of the Master who existed when the Doctor and Susan left Gallifrey already, coincidentally looked like Ainley.

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    • @Scrooge, to stay sane, i am touching his pre-renegade days. "The Toy" have him look like Delgado instead. Not counting Dreyfus and the Hughes incarnations who could also be the one to become a renegade.

      To keep it sane, I imagine that the illustrator just chose to use Ainley in a similar way we have Capaldi in the flashback of "the Witch's Familiar" (or he messed up?). Plus, if he looked like Ainley, there is no way the First Doctor would not recognise him in "the Five Doctors". All speculations on my part, of course.

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    • The Ainley Master does actually appear in the story separately to the past Gallifrey one though, unless I’m missing something.

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    • @SarahJaneFan, the illustration of the past Master shooting the Lord President uses Ainley's likeness instead of an original look.

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    • And there's Flashback to take into account, too… or, I mean, there will be once we have the War Chief thread.

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    • In regards to Birth of a Renegade, I think we should just say something like "according to one account, the Master's appearance on Gallifrey was similar to that of when he inhabited Tremas' body." (I haven’t seen The Keeper of Traken yet, but isn’t Tremas old and he becomes younger when the Master fuses his body? Is there a given reason for this?)

      Actually though, does the story make it clear that was an earlier Master and not Ainley's? Because currently the page for Birth of a Renegade links to Ainley's section, but the Master's page contains info from that story in the early section as well as having a "needs info from this story" tag in the Tremas section. From an outside perspective, I also don’t see why the writers/artists of this comic strip would depict an early Master identical to Tremas.

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    • The picture in question. The narrative is clear that it was a younger and inexperienced Master right before the First Doctor and Susan leave Gallifrey.

      File:Birth of a Renegade illustration 3.jpg

      The story has the Master telling these events to the Fifth Doctor who has a wiped memory of the events.

      Most of this story is completely ignored by most writers, but it still is considered valid.

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    • Well, even if he happens to look like Ainley, if the story makes it clear this is intended to be an early Master we should accept that.

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    • To me, it just seems like a narrative convention: rather than inventing a new appearance, they just showed the Master who was telling the story, even though it almost certainly wasn't him. Going beyond that, illustrations from non-visual media have consistently been treated as a "secondary" canon by this wiki. This would fall under the same grounds as cover art that doesn't match its own story.

      Also, it seems that this story is easy to "ignore" due to the Master not being the most reliable of narrators.

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    • "Doesn’t matter which face he was wearing, they’re all the [Insert Time Lord] to me"

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    • Oh, I didn't realise this was being told from the Master's point of view. (Now reading the story's summary I see.) So in the early Master section we can describe that he claimed this.

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    • Thinking that this was a "doesn't matter which face" thing would, I think, be speculation.

      And if it even is codified policy anywhere (is it? I know covers are a "last resort", but fully-integrated illustrations like this?), the idea of illustrations being secondary sources would surely, only come up if this notion conflicted with anything. And it doesn't really. The Master's past is murky enough that for all we know one of their past incarnations could have looked like Ainley; we know the Master burned through regenerations quickly in their youth, so it should be no wonder that other stories taking place in approximately the same era give him different faces.

      The point that this is all viewed through the prism of the Master's storytelling, however, is much more relevant. We can definitely moderate this sentence with "An account the Master once gave of his early life depicted the regeneration who killed the Lord President around the time of the Doctor's departure from Gallifrey as greatly resembling the body the Master later inhabited after possessing and merging with Tremas", or something like that.

      All in all this business is only a minor point; it's just yet another example of accounts explicitly showing that some faces of the Master's (Beevers, Ainley) actually do recur throughout their lives, and thus that one cannot simply order the faces chronologically and expect that to coincide with the chronological order of how those stories happen to the Master in-universe.

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    • It's all also very off-topic; "Birth of a Renegade" is correctly listed in both sections of the template.

      Continuing forward, OttselSpy has not responded to either my rebuttal or Ringo's alternative, but it has only been two days. Unless anyone else has any substantial objections they wish to voice, perhaps we just wait for them to weigh back in? The only other feedback we've had lately was Chubby Potato's wish for more clarity in the top section, which I agree with.

      In regard to Ringo's alternative for OttselSpy, I don't prefer it, but think it's acceptable if that's where the consensus lands.

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    • Objections to what specifically? And weigh back in on what? This thread has been all over the place with questions, suggestions and contradictions - not the fault of any poster here, but rather the writers' tendency to ignore what each other writes (and sometimes themselves).

      This post is about cleaning up the Master template, but there are so many different opinions here that I can't really untangle it myself, especially with over 200 posts.

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    • That’s fair. We really could do with a summary.

      Consensus seemed to be moving toward a proposal of grouping everything from when the Master got baked to when he received his new set of regenerations in “Day of the Master” into one section, which each “portrayal” having its own subsection. Ringo put a proposal into his sandbox here. One of the main benefits of this approach is that it absolves us of having to determine which Crispy Master is which in each of his appearances and covers up small bits of continuity weirdness like Ainley going back to Crispy for a hot second after “The Five Doctors” only to steal regeneration energy and regenerate . . . back into Ainley. This proposal would mean the template wouldn’t have to accommodate five different Crispy Masters and two different Ainleys.

      Since that proposal, I believe we have had two objections. The first was TheChampionOfTime, who stated that they thought how the template currently appears is fine and that making Pratt a subection of Delgado was a bad idea. However, the proposal didn’t put Pratt as a subsection of Delgado, so it’s unclear if they actually looked at the proposal. They have not responded back since they were informed of this, but that was only three days ago.

      The other objection was OttselSpy, who said, “I am thoroughly against including all of the Ainley appearances as part of the Pratt/Beavers lineage, it feels reductive to say the least.” I submitted a rebuttal, while Ringo suggested a slight alternative. This was only two days ago.

      Basically, if we’re aiming for consensus, we’re waiting to see if the people who objected still object.

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    • I think the reason there have been so many tangents is that there is concern on how the arrangement of this template could affect other parts of the wiki (for example the page for the Master). After all, we want to be consistent with how we handle the incarnations. But I suppose it’s a bit early to do that and we should wait until after this thread is decided.

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    • I took the liberty of adding the Delgado and Ainley appearance for a pre-Gallifrey Master in the header of my proposal.

      It's getting lengthy but I am afraid it's getting necessary due to the many existing and often conflicting accounts discussed here surrounding the span of who exactly the Crispy Incarnation may be (Delgado, Ainley, the Tzun, possessed bodies and so on).

      I am not sure we need to align this template with the rest of the wiki since it is from the real world POV while the Master page allows more lengthy details than a template header and the Master redirect templates are aimed as a BtS help for editors iiuc.

      PS: they are not currently aligned anyway: the story templates does not have a section for the DWM body while the redirect for it exists. The story template has a different order between VNA and Beevers II than the main article. The story template has a section for the Titan incarnation while he does not have a redirect. The story template also has alternate universe and non-DWU coverage.

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    • I am satisfied with this. Both of the objecting users have made edits on the site since responses to their objections have been made, so we at least know they have been online to have a chance to continue their objections. Anyone else have anything to add?

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    • Nothing in particular. Possibly we could add the Licensor from Do You Have a Licence to Save this Planet? (Nigel Fairs) to the Non-DWU section, but that's really a random detail I thought of. I mean, there isn't a Template:Doctor_stories, but for the closest equivalent, the Chiropodist is in Category:Non-DWU_Doctors, so equally it would stand to reason for the Licensor to be counted among the non-DWU Masters.

      That aside, I think we're about good to go. The really big thing that remains to be discussed is the War Chief, but that'll be a thread all on its own, which will only affect the template if it goes one particular way.

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    • I had no idea this existed and have no opinion. Seems like it doesn't have any impact on the overall shape of the template, though. Anyone else?

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    • Never about the Licensor before, inmy opinion he is like Professor Stream (The Hollows of Time) or War King which in myopinion should maybe go in a brand new "see also" section but i do not think it should be argued in this thread.

      I think we should ajust with the decision that would be reached with the future War Chief thread.


      On another note, i am note sure what to do with non-DWU stories that use an established Master (eg the Pinball machine game uses Delgado, Lego Dimension uses Missy, ...)

      Should we put a NOTVALID subsection for each master self's section or should we put each Master self as a subsection of the existing non-DWU section.

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    • Either the former, or just a section in the existing "non-DWU" section titled something like "Preexisting incarnations". The template will get quite ungainly if we have to double everything.

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    • I don't think it will alter how we do things in the template, but for completion's sake, I should note that 1993's Police 5: The Master (TV story) considers both Pratt and Ainley to be distinct regenerations, and that is the word they use.

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    • Sigh.

      Uh.

      This was heading for a resolution, but then—um…

      SachaDhawanMasterSpyfall

      Sigh, sigh, sigh. Back to the ol'drawing board.

      Or, to put it more practically, I suggest we delay closing of this thread until the second part of Spyfall is out and we know beyond reasonable doubt what is up with the chap above, at which point we can properly decide how/whether to add him to the template.

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    • There is absolutely no reason to freak just because a new incarnation, seemingly, showed up and we have to discuss him also. By the way this isn't the last time we'll be discussing. There is also the future audio release.

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    • Oh, sure, I was being a bit overdramatic. I just mean that we can't very well close the thread now since there's now a bunch more updates to the template to discuss and it would be a bit silly, I think, not to talk them out here, so long as this thread remains open.

      …So, getting round to it, I see that an entry marked "O" and linking to The Master#Undated events has already been added to Template:Master stories. This should probably be added to the sandbox mockup of our edits to the table, if it's going to stick.

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    • I don't know anything about that.

      What I will say is that due to the events of Spyfall: Part One, the Master should probably be a pipe all the way to that reveal at the end, meaning the majority of it should keep referring to him as "O" for as long as he's fooling them.

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    • I suggest to wait in the unlikely case he is somewhere between delgado and macqueen. But otherwise i don't think he would influence our discussion regarding how to handle the crispy master.

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    • wait a minute. BananaClownMan changed the whole thing before the end of the thread yet again...

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    • The Crispy Master himself, probably not — although I have seen speculation from some people that he might actually be a classic Master wearing one of the perfect rubber masks, rather than a new incarnation; he could conceivably be Ainley, even if it's unlikely.

      But more to the point, the thing is that despite its more limited title, this thread as a whole has clearly grown into being "how do we fix the Master Stories" template. If you think the question of whether, where and how to do the Dhawan section is better-served by another thread, I suppose that would be possible, but it seems to me that with this one still going we would do better to kill two birds with one stone and get all the necessary talks about the Master stories template over & done with.

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    • RingoRoadagain wrote: wait a minute. BananaClownMan changed the whole thing before the end of the thread yet again...

      Eh? Missed that post. What do you mean?

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    • There is absolutely no point is discussing Dhawan until Sunday. What use is talking about him if we don't know what incarnation he might be, where that is in the order or if he actually lying about his identity?

      BananaClownMan's recent T:BOUND violating edits (and Dhawan's section for now) should be removed right?

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    • Scrooge MacDuck wrote: Eh? Missed that post. What do you mean?

      https://tardis.fandom.com/index.php?title=Template%3AMaster_stories&diff=2826271&oldid=2822372

      Also, the Master's page is on lockdown due to the new incarnation so i am unsure we should touch this until Sunday

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    • Agreed. Precisely what I meant with my first post on this issue was "hang on, we'll have lots more to talk about on Sunday, so let's keep this open awhile long". (Yet another possibility that would yet again change where we'd put Dhawan on the template is the chance of his being from a parallel universe, which would explain why he's back to being evil, and alive, after Missy's redemption and death.)

      And yes, BananaClownMan's edits should probably be removed for now, especially as it wasn't even handled right in my opinion — the section has no more business being titled "O" than Jacobi is titled "Yana" and Simm "Saxon", let alone Delgado as "Col. Masters". The version currently present in RingoRpadAgain's sandbox, where it's "Dhawan", is much better.

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    • I agree that we shouldn't do anything concerning our newest Master until after the Spyfall story actually ends. However, if Part 2 gives no substantial indication whether he is post-Missy or is a previous regeneration to her, I believe we should proceed as if he is the latest incarnation until other evidence shows otherwise (if it ever does).

      Unlike the EU, the TV show does not have a strong history of having characters meet out of order, River Song (and, by their nature, multi-Doctor or Master stories) being the only major exception. There are very few cases where TV episodes take place out-of-order for any characters. Just because we have evidence that it's possible he came before Missy, doesn't, to me, justify ignoring the TV show's long history of keeping things in-order.

      All that being said, unless the plot keeps the Doctor and the Master from having a decent-length conversation in Part 2, I feel like it would be very poor writing to not have the Doctor address the change-in-personality from the redeemed Missy, so this is all probably very academic.

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    • Schreibenheimer wrote: All that being said, unless the plot keeps the Doctor and the Master from having a decent-length conversation in Part 2, I feel like it would be very poor writing to not have the Doctor address the change-in-personality from the redeemed Missy, so this is all probably very academic.

      Well, my last paragraph either didn't age well or aged like fine wine depending on your level of cynicism.

      Regardless, I stand by my previous comments that assuming incarnations happen out of the order they're presented in is speculative and, as such, believe that his section of the template should come after Missy (as has already been done, apparently).

      I still feel that having an "Incarnation Unclear" section just for the female Master in Harvest in Time is unnecessary as there are a multitude of possible Masters in the story, and the novel is well-represented in the template by the known incarnations present in the story.

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    • I dunno, the Doctor did half-address it, didn't she? "Doesn't this ever stop?" Don't forget that the last the Doctor saw of Missy, she had refused the Twelfth Doctor's offer to stand with him, and left on her merry way with the Simm Master. It stands to reason for the Doctor to be only slightly disappointed, but not that surprise, to see the Master up to his/her old tricks again.

      And as for the actual answer to the question, it's implicitly that whatever the Master found out on Gallifrey threw him into a murderous rage all over again, I think.

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    • Missy definitely had turned good by the end of her era before being struck down. So whatever Sacha's Master did discover about Gallifreyan history and the Timeless Child, it was definitely what made him a murderous psycho once again. I highly and strongly doubt Missy just changed into Sacha's Master and decided to be an insane lunatic again.

      But of course until something like this gets explained in-universally, we can't add that to their history/timeline.

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    • I agree, but, playing devil's advocate, if a later episode were to reveal that he is a previous incarnation, nothing in this story would explicitly contradict that. I highly doubt that will happen, though; O having his temper tantrum on Gallifrey, then regenerating and nudging 12 to rediscover the Gallifrey they'd already destroyed in the future would be odd.

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    • What Sacha's Master does is also just to get the Doctor's attention because he's desperate for her to realize the truth as he did. He is not out to bring the Doctor down. The Master just always has had a wicked way of getting a message across. They have never just sat down with the Doctor and explained something to them.

      This is evident in the last bit of the hologram message he sent her. "Why should I make it easy for you? It wasn't for me."

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    • Regardless, it seems all three of us who've commented today are in agreement on the practical outcome of Spyfall, and this isn't the forum for discussion of the character beyond that.

      Aside from my Harvest issue, are there any other heading-level issues that need to be discussed in this thread? Or is there anyone who still feels that Sacha's placement on the template should be anywhere other than directly below Gomez?

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    • I still believe thzt Dhawan is the latest. Mostly because the BBC always uses the latest incarnation; they are not Big Finish.

      Regarding Harvest, there are about 470 dfferent incarnations of the Master in there and it states they are ALL his incarnations including those from other time streams. So of course it's unclear who could be there, even the Kisgart one could be there.

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    • I think Dhawan is the latest incarnation, and any inconsistencies occur because Chibnall clearly hasn't watched the show he's writing for since 2013.

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    • It's not an inconsistency just because you don't get a clear explanation. For all we know, Missy could easily have had a backup plan that the Simm Master didn't know about.

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    • It doesn't really matter. We have no evidence pointing to Dhawan being before or after Missy. Because he's the latest we (and the Doctor) have seen, he should be placed at the end.

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    • I mean the inconsistency is mainly that Missy had a satisfying arc that made her a better character and Chibnall is ignoring it because he didn't even watch the Missy episodes

      But yeah, it's our job to ignore inconistencies and cover the show in the simpliest way we can.

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    • I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Chibnall hasn't watched the Missy episodes. As a fan, I would've liked to see some acknowledgement of Missy's arc and an explanation for how (s)he survived a supposedly final death. But at the same time, I understand that Chibnall has to keep casual viewers in mind and do his best not to alienate them. Plus there's nothing stopping him from writing an explanation into a future script if he wants to.

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    • So we're still all in agreement on the O front. That's good. We can probably forgo continuing with the Chibnall-bashing, then, easy as it is.

      I guess I'm good with Ringo's proposal as it is then.

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    • Food for thoughts: I noticed recently that my proposal of grouping the Master's instances by likeness --at least from a real world point of view-- actually already has a precedent on the wiki: Category:The Master images. Most interestingly for our thread, the Pratt/Beevers ones are not distinguished at all.

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    • The precedent is not uninteresting, but image categories are very much out-of-universe, even moreso than the template in question here, and infinitely moreso than the Biography section.

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    • I would like to provide this wonderful timeline for the Master made by LegoK9, which takes nearly everything into account.

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    • I mean, I'm all for spreading good LegoK9's theorising, but the Wiki is not a place of theories. We can't say, for example, that the James Dreyfus master and the William Hughes Master are definitively the same incarnation, for example. And anyway, this thread isn't really about timelines.

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    • The reason I brought up the timeline was not for the theorising, but for the evidence it 'does' provide from various sources about the incarnations of the Master. Which, pretty much, lines up with what we have so far in this thread anyway.

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