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  • Skittles the hog
    Skittles the hog closed this thread because:
    Closed per final post.
    18:24, November 11, 2014

    Because the Gomez incarnation of the Master does not personally refer to herself as "the Master", there are a large number of articles where we would use {{Gomez|n = Missy}} to refer to this incarnation. Would it be possible to create a separate {{Missy}} template, which is functionally equivalent to the other Master templates, but displays the name "Missy" instead of "the Master"?

    (The same goes with {{Mr Saxon}}, by the way.)

      Establishing interface with the TARDIS
    • If the information you've posted here is a spoiler per Tardis:Spoiler policy, it will have to be removed. If what you've posted has already aired, it is not a spoiler.

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    • We're going to be holding up on this decision until the series concludes and it's obvious that she's not lying. After all, one of the consistent themes of the series is the nature of truth, so there's no reason to accept her statement in episode 11. For the moment, we're going to be operating with our usual caution and therefore believing she's not what she purports to be.

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    • Shambala108 wrote: If the information you've posted here is a spoiler per Tardis:Spoiler policy, it will have to be removed. If what you've posted has already aired, it is not a spoiler.

      Our spoiler policy states "there are multi-part televised stories, and we allow each individual episode to have a page before the entire story has been broadcast" indicating that the first part of a two-parter ceases to be a spoiler at the normal time. So it's not a spoiler... however, as CzechOut stated, it isn't necessarily true.

      So let me rephrase this question. If Missy is the Master, would Template:Missy be created as stated above?

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    • No. There will never be {{Missy}}. As per a very, very long community discussion, there will only be {{Gomez}}. But we're at least a week away from its creation, if it even turns out to be necessary.

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    • So if I want to link to Missy, I'd use [[Missy (Deep Breath)|Missy]]?

      (Also, just a heads-up... while it is not confirmed she's the Master, it's confirmed she has two hearts, as the Doctor felt her heartbeat at one point in Dark Water and there was dialogue about the two-hearts thing.)

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    • Well, you don't actually have to type all that. You can just type [[Missy (Deep Breath)|]]. And of course you don't even have to literally type even that much: auto-suggest will give you a viable link after just a few characters.

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    • CzechOut wrote: Well, you don't actually have to type all that. You can just type [[Missy (Deep Breath)|]]. And of course you don't even have to literally type even that much: auto-suggest will give you a viable link after just a few characters.

      Either that, or this: {{Gomez|n=Missy}} will work as well.

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    • Nope, that won't work right now. That template has been deleted and can't be recreated until at least next Saturday. At that time, if she really is the Master, then the template will be restored, and the above advice will be valid.

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    • Sure, I'm saying that if it's confirmed that she's the Master, and if we want to link to the article with the "Missy" or "the Mistress" name rather than "the Master", that would probably be the best way to link to her section.

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    • Oh, yeah, absolutely.

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    • By the way, yes, we're aware that everything the BBC are doing right now points towards Gomez being the Master. We've seen the Doctor Who Extra and seen the extensive section on the Doctor Who website.

      Again, though, a strong theme of this series is "lying". We even see that in this episode on a post-it in Clara's home. So we have to admit, out of an abundance of caution, that all of this could be misdirection.

      So it's probably a good idea, and certainly one that takes less effort than making changes and reverting them, to just wait a week and make sure the Beeb aren't lying to us.

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    • Since you followed the policy of fully protecting "Missy" and "the Master", it would be coherent and useful to protect regeneration (see the chronology) and The Master - list of appearances, among the others.

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    • The Master - list of appearances has been protected due to extreme edit wars, but I see no need at the moment to protect Regeneration.

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    • I removed the series 8 episodes from that list.

      It depends what sort of information people start putting on the regeneration page. If they cite Dark Water as a source for regeneration facts, then it may need to be protected.

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    • They already have referenced Dark Water in Regeneration: [1]

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    • This is a classic of putting subjective biased opinions before content. You hope the characters lying. What you have right now is this page - Missy linking the Master, whereby there's 0 content about Missy in the article re-directed too. The logical thing to do would be to put a Missy section in the Master article, with a spoiler template above it, that takes a neutral tone saying the "character claims to be the Master" or something to that end. There are lots of people who might want to know more about this Missy character. They won't find anything on this Wiki about it without great difficulty and so these potential new editors are unlikely to be very eager to contribute to this Wiki. A wiki that's out of date on the basis of a subjective opinion a few editors playing the system have. Suppressing good content about characters on the off-chance something depicted is a lie, or some sort of Dallas style dream is the most absurd thing I've ever read in regards to a Wiki in over ten years. Easily.

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    • This isn't a matter of hoping, it's a matter of experience. Experience has shown us that what we see in the first episode/story of a multiple-part story isn't always what ends up happening. It's far easier to add information later when we know more than to comb through the wiki looking for things that need to be changed when the writer(s) fooled us.

      It's only for less than a week, and this wiki has always been an encyclopedia, not a news source. There are dozens if not hundreds of articles on this wiki that are lacking and need work, but that hasn't deterred new editors from joining us anyway. This situation is no different.

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    • There is no point in making a premature decision. The content can easily be added after the series finale. That's Saturday; six days away. I'm sure you can wait.

      A pragmatic decision was taken to avoid any issues that may arise should Moffat perform a u-turn.

      I fail to see how it is logical to include a Missy section on the Master page and then say "claims to be", instantly undermining its existence. The finale will provide answers that will allow for an informed decision.

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    • There's plenty of content about this character you don't have in any of the articles. When this character has been kicking around for an entire season. For example if you're not committal on it being the Master then why does Missy link too the Master (second embedded link down) and not a separate article on verified information about the Missy character? Which then of course can easily be moved around depending on what happens in the final. It's very likely to be easier to do that then start from scratch. I dunno...you guys do what you want. But to stop any sort of content being written on one character goes against pretty much every good principle a wiki should have. It's especially bad when new articles/information are the key draws to get any new editor, for any wiki, ever. (As opposed to niche articles on niche things, for example).

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    • Of course we want new users to come in. That much is obvious. However, I expect you'd agree that those users wouldn't be inclined to abide by the decision to wait before adding content on her being the Master.

      The Dallas comparison is a poor one - these aren't entire story lines we're omitting - it's a single line of dialogue, and then only for a few days.

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    • In fact, it's not even that. We're just not accepting it as fact.

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    • Well the BBC has confirmed her to be the Master, per this link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/xCgpqKWg8nj5BS2LJ6DRV0/missy). I don't think they would go to the trouble of doing that if Steven Moffat was writing a deception.

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    • I know, and that was convincing enough for me personally, but to err on the side of caution, I don't think a few days delay will harm our user base. And if it is a deception, then, you're right, whoever wrote that page is certainly committed.

      There are plenty of pages open for editing related to Dark Water anyway. Why not focus on them?

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    • TheTardisController, I suggest you take a look at Tardis:Valid sources, so you will understand where we are coming from. The BBC is not considered a valid source for in universe articles on this wiki.

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    • I think his post was suggesting that Moffat won't do a u-turn, not that it was a valid source.

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    • Dark Water (TV story)'s introduction says "Missy is revealed to be the Master".

      If other relevant articles (like The Master and Missy (Deep Breath)) can't make the assumption that her claim's necessarily correct, how come the episode's own article itself can?

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    • As the other relevant pages are locked from the "Missy" stuff, the disambig page at Missy should be included in the lock.

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    • Well I have to tell that I constantly revert the "the Master" stuff from all those related pages, and I even tell why, but someone keeps reversing it to say that Missy IS the Master; that Chang was killed by the Master, that Missy is revealed to be the Master (I reverse back into 'claims to be'), that the Master is the main enemy of Dark Water. It even have been added twice to "Aliases of the Master" that she is him. I reversed all of them but the two obvious back to say Missy, but they might need to be protected pages too.

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    • Talk about being in denial.

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    • Listen here dude, this is an agreed upon thing that we keep it seperate, and if you don't like it, then leave. Also, it could EASILY be a loop around as Moffat is known for, such as Missy next time saying something like she was kiddding or that she just wanted to see his reaction. But the point stands that until this Saturday we keep them seperate, like it or not.

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    • Please do not tell people to leave. Users are entitled to their opinions and we encourage them to express themselves (provided they adhere to Tardis:Discussion policy of course).

      To reply to Umishiru: we are denying that a single line of dialogue is enough at this point - that's all. It's a cautious approach. We had a similar case with the Nethersphere. If we had put 'it is the afterlife' on every page, as some may have done, we'd have egg on our faces and a clean-up operation on the to-do list. That can be avoided this time.

      It's now four days until the finale, and still several users are complaining. If the reasoning you'll find on this page doesn't satisfy you, then don't leave, just come back in a few days and slap the Gomez template on everything that moves.

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    • I just told him that this seperation was an agreed upon thing, and he told him it was denial. That is not denial, it's taking precations in the case it turns out that Missy happen to be lying or something.

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    • Danniesen wrote: Listen here dude, this is an agreed upon thing that we keep it seperate, and if you don't like it, then leave.

      The last two words are what I was writing about.

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    • Well, I was talking about him not liking the agreement. I never meant the Wikia as a whole.

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    • Hey guys :)

      As Skittles said, above, let's keep this civil. Let me take a moment to further clarify what's going on. No one in the administrative staff is "in denial" over the apparent "truth" of Gomez' character. We all have seen the episode, seen the Doctor Who Extra and gone to the website. We know that everything in the world is pointing towards Gomez being the Master.

      [And indeed, speaking quite personally, nothing would make me happier than Gomez turning out to be the Master. I've been a big fan of her work since Green Wing, and think the possibility of her as the Master is one of the more extraordinarily exciting notions of the Moffat era.]

      But.

      We've been here before. The end of the cliffhanger of the final story of the series is pretty much never what it appeared to be. Did David Tennant regenerate at the end of The Stolen Earth? Not really. (Well, not until we learned otherwise five years later.) Was The Army of Ghosts genuinely "the story of how [Rose Tyler] died'? Only metaphorically. Could we state with any authority what the true nature of the Toclafane were at the end of The Sound of Drums? Absolutely not. Did we know what the Pandorica was at the end of The Pandorica Opens? Of course not; otherwise the teaser to The Big Bang didn't work.

      With two part finales, the first part pretty much always misleads in some substantive fashion.

      And though the out-of-universe indicators are super-strong for Gomez being the Master, the narrative ones are fairly murky. Since series 1, we've been told that the Doctor would know if there were other Time Lords around. (Heck, since the old series, he's been able to instantly recognise old friends, despite intervening regenerations.) He doesn't appear to this time, at all. Remember how he literally sniffed his way to the Master in The End of Time, part one? The Master's standing right in front of this time — he's actually in intimate contact with her — and yet there's not the faintest hint of recognition. Because we have a long view of Doctor Who around here, we have to ask why that is. And we also have to say that it would probably be unwise to trust anything during a series where the theme is quite clearly "lying". Narratively, there are genuine issues here that give us reason for caution.

      So this tiny little roadblock is indeed rooted simply in a desire to make sure that we really are getting what the production team tell us is happening. Remember, in-unverse articles are built only on narratives. So we have to pay attention to the story, and take heed of things that don't seem to make sense when considered against other recent stories.

      Please do not mistake our caution for any kind of emotional reaction.

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    • Oh I should also point out that the matter of adding Gomez' picture to {{Masterpic}} is a technical one. We want to make sure that the timing of the CSS works out well there, so even after Saturday, there may be some delay in getting that pic up, should Gomez actually turn out to be indisputably the Master.

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    • Exactly. Missy might very well say she's the Master in Dark Water, but the truth could be "turned around" in the next episode.

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    • CzechOut wrote:

      We've been here before. The end of the cliffhanger of the final story of the series is pretty much never what it appeared to be. Did David Tennant regenerate at the end of The Stolen Earth? Not really. (Well, not until we learned otherwise five years later.) Was The Army of Ghosts genuinely "the story of how [Rose Tyler] died'? Only metaphorically. Could we state with any authority what the true nature of the Toclafane were at the end of The Sound of Drums? Absolutely not. Did we know what the Pandorica was at the end of The Pandorica Opens? Of course not; otherwise the teaser to The Big Bang didn't work.
      • Army of Ghosts: "This is the story of how [Rose] died" is the opening narration, not the cliffhanger, though you are right in saying it was an implication in the first part that was proven false in the second.
      • Utopia: You didn't address this one in your post, being that it wasn't the penultimate episode of the series, but "Yana is the Master" was more-or-less definitively proven by the end of the episode. The clear difference between Utopia and Dark Water is that Dark Water was a one-line throwaway that could conceivably be a lie.
      • The Sound of Drums: We could not definitively determine what the Toclafane were, but we could define them as "vaguely robotic spheroid life-forms working for the Master"
      • The Stolen Earth: The clear implication of the cliffhanger (and lack of a Next Time trailer) is that Tennant's Doctor would regenerate into a Doctor played by someone else. This did not turn out to be the case, though it's a lie of omission rather than misinformation.
      • The End of Time, Part 1: The Donna cliffhanger was outright misdirection, in the style of a classic series cliffhanger. However, the return of the Time Lords was clearly not intended to be taken as misdirection.
      • The Pandorica Opens: The cliffhanger had two "parts": one, Amy died, and two, the Doctor was imprisoned inside the Pandorica, causing the universe to have never existed. The first was proven false, while the second was true. This is the biggest reason we can't call Gomez's character the Master yet, as BBC publicity claimed Amy was permanently dead, in the same way they claim Missy is the Master. (As for the nature of the Pandorica, it was a prison of some sort meant to contain the Doctor. The Big Bang did not contradict this, though it did reveal extra information we did not know.)
      • Closing Time: The reveal that the astronaut was adult River rather than child Melody is completely true, but the Doctor didn't actually die. (@CzechOut: How did we handle the Doctor's "death" prior to the airing of TWoRS?)
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    • We used the word "apparently" a lot. But the thing is, no one believed that the Doctor actually died, because, after all, that would be the end of the programme, and series 7 had been commissioned. :)

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    • To be fair, before his new regeneration cycle and, well, before Twelve was shown in The Day of the Doctor it could very well have been the end of him at the 2013 Christmas special.

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    • So, the finale happened!

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    • ^The last one was me not signed in.

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    • Now that the finale has aired, you guys are all accepting of Missy's identity. Regardless of your reasons, you guys have been very biased in deciding what statements to question. Basically anything in the entire show could be a lie. If I wanted to, I could easily come up with a thousand conspiracy theories of the like. If I said "The asthma girl isn't dead! She was transported to a marshmallow planet!" you guys would say that there was no evidence to suggest that, but if I said that Missy was the Master you would say that Moffat's probably lying. That's pretty biased.

      Really, I think we should follow a policy of innocent until proven guilty. Regardless, you have to treat all statements the same. You can't be skeptical of Missy=Master but not of Kate Stewart=Brig's daughter.

      Another good idea would be to believe whatever the Doctor believes. If the Doctor didn't believe Missy's identity, we would have legitimate grounds to question it. But he did not. He believed it, so we should too. Basically this entire wiki is based on the Doctor's views.

      No matter what, there was no reason to doubt Missy's statements except for Moffat's history. We only doubt something if we have an in-universe reason to do so.

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    • Really? Are you still upset about the TDC's decision to have the pages seperated and locked... after the episode aired...?

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    • CloneMarshalCommanderCody wrote: Now that the finale has aired, you guys are all accepting of Missy's identity. Regardless of your reasons, you guys have been very biased in deciding what statements to question.

      Kate being the Brigadier's daughter would only be mentioned on a few pages. Missy being the Master, because you're linking to the Master, would cause a more widespread problem, had it turned out to be false. That's the essence of it.

      We knew the finale would clarify, so waiting a week seemed like the best decision. It was a purely pragmatic choice.

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    • CloneMarshalCommanderCody, I think you've missed the point of this entire discussion. Changing the Missy page to Master is not a simple process. It requires a merge, which is fairly complicated and which only certain admins can do. Undoing a merge is even more complicated, so we decided to err on the side of caution and wait until the second part aired, which was less than a week later.

      You said, "Basically this entire wiki is based on the Doctor's views." Please point to the forum or policy page that states this. Because Tardis:In-universe perspective suggests otherwise.

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    • Ok. I didn't think merging was that complex. Your decisions make sense now.

      As for "based on the Doctor's views," you misunderstand me. I understand In-universe perspective. What I'm saying is that much of the information on this wiki was said by the Doctor and is not verifiable on-screen. For example, in The Time Warrior (TV story), the Doctor says for the first time that his homeworld is Gallifrey. There was no way to verify that he was telling the truth until later, when novels confirmed it.

      By "based on the Doctor's views" I don't mean this wiki's articles are based on the Doctor's opinions; I mean this wiki's articles are based on information the Doctor gives, and that information may be incorrect. Thus no "The Daleks are evil." What I mean is that many facts' only source is the Doctor.

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    • CloneMarshalCommanderCody wrote: You can't be skeptical of Missy=Master but not of Kate Stewart=Brig's daughter.

      Now that the episode has aired, we are no longer sceptical of Missy=Master. I personally believed there was enough evidence after Dark Water to outright state Missy=Master, but a lot of the people here disagreed with me.

      As for the Kate Stewart=Brig's daughter thing, there is no evidence in any medium that implies Kate was lying about her parentage. In addition, we treat Downtime as valid, further reinforcing that Kate is the Brig's daughter.

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    • As to Missy=Master I think it was pretty good to wait for Death in Heaven because as of Dark Water things could still be twisted around.

      To the Brigadier/Kate thing: why would Kate lie about it, why would she have any reason to lie about her parentage. Just think about it a little, why would ther be 'any' reason to lie about it?

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    • Kate's parentage is confirmed by Downtime anyway, the only reason we're discussing her is because of Clonemarshalcommandercody trying and failing to make a point.

      Back to the topic of Missy. To bring back the Pandorica argument from earlier in the thread, at the conclusion of The Pandorica Opens we could not know the full extent of what the Pandorica was, which was later revealed in The Big Bang. The same applies here, as all we know of Missy after Dark Water is that she is, or claims to be, an incarnation of the Master. Death in Heaven cleared this up by clarifying she was post-Simm.

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    • This thread is becoming full of repetition and off topic discussion. The conclusion that can be drawn is: in certain situations, where there is a distinct possibility that the audience is being misled, and we know more knowledge will be provided, the introduction of specific information can be delayed until clarified.

        Establishing interface with the TARDIS
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