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  • Shambala108
    Shambala108 closed this thread because:
    see final post
    05:11, January 5, 2020

    Recently I've been getting a lot of Big Finish on CDs, and as they have a good deal of info on who did what for the story, I've added a 'credits' list at several pages. See The Elite as example.

    After adding these credits to The First Sontarans, Shambala108 told me to stop, as "there are no audio stories with the credits sections like you added to a couple of audio stories. There must be a reason why this hasn't been done in the nine year history of this wiki. It may be a good reason, it may not, but since you are adding something major — a new section — it is better to either run it by the majority (i.e. the forums) or at least ask a senior admin such as Tangerineduel or CzechOut." So I am now doing this. Should I continue, or should I not?

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    • I don't see why there shouldn't be credits. I think the reason they hadn't been added before is because no one bothered to do it yet.

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    • That was my thought also.

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    • The reason the so-called "full" credits haven't been done before is because I'm not really aware of anyone who has an absolutely complete set of liner notes. It has allowed our pages greater uniformity to simply go with the information that is accessible to all users through bigfinish.com than to give the information that we might individually own.

      I rather suspect most people that bother with the audios at all tend to be like me in that we started going for physical purchases but then gave into the economic reality of going for downloads, which, though legal, are slightly inferior in that they don't give the information on the booklets.

      The other thing is that credits have not been equal across all releases. There is a difference in what gets credited, making the creation of some sort of credit template somewhat tricky. For instance, in the Briggs era, Briggs and Haigh-Ellery are called "Executive Producers" on each release, while before Gary Russell and Haigh-Ellery were simply called producers. Additionally, there are some wacky things credited sometimes — The Game, as I recall, credits a lute player, of all things.

      While I'm generally a fan of adding whatever behind the scenes detail that we can, I don't want to start something we have no realistic chance of finishing. I am not in favour of starting with a handful of these and hoping that someone, someday will fill them in. If all we're talking about is doing a coupla dozen of these to completion, I think it'd be better to opt for simply making sure that our entries match the level of information available on the BF website.

      That said, if people want to use this thread to establish precisely how many liner notes we collectively have — and if we as a community can assert that we have over 60% of the total liner notes that currently exist — then I'd be all for adding this extra detail. If what we're talking about is only 5-10% of BF's current output, then I think we shouldn't bother.

      I also think that if we are going to add this material, we must have a template for it so that we can leverage the information usefully, as we do with our television stories. This will require a little bit of thought and planning.

      But let's see just how much information we have collectively first.

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    • I have CDs for Real Time, The Holy Terror and the 2nd series of Bernice Summerfield.

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    • Also, I don't think not being able to finish these for now is a reason not to do any. The wiki also lacks full plot summaries for most audios, but I don't think anyone would remove one if I wrote it just because the others lack it.

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    • Of course they wouldn't. That's a plot summary, and is explicitly considered necessary to move the article out of stub status, per Tardis:Stub. This would be introducing an entirely new — and frankly expensive-to-obtain — level of information that would tend to make articles that lack it look stubby. This changes the baseline of information necessary for an article. And if all we have so far is around two dozen stories, that's just not good enough.

      Also, there is a very real need to harness this information usefully. It's not really good enough to just recreate the liner notes. The information has to be linked in a way similar to {{wales crew}} in order for us to use it. And the problem is that we need to get a much wider sample of liner notes across a larger number of release years than the list so far presented.

      Again, though, Cult of Skaro and Jago aren't the only audio fans here. Maybe others will come to this thread and offer their collection lists and we'll be able to put some things together. Again, I strongly feel that we need to have something like 60% of all of BF releases on hand, collectively, before we can think about including this information in articles.

      For the moment, the most useful thing you could do would be to start scanning the credit pages and archiving those scans here at TARDIS. That way, you won't waste time typing in all these credits, but we'll be able to start building up a sense of the kind of shape the eventual credits template will need to take.

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    • We could always try asking the people at Big Finish forum to help out.

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    • Does Revan get CDs or Downloads?

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    • I have mostly downloads myself, with only just a few CDs that weren't released as downloads.

      BTW, maybe we could try asking Big Finish themselves?

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: We could always try asking the people at Big Finish forum to help out.

      Absolutely. And there are other places where Big Finish listeners congregate, like certain areas of Gallifrey Base and http://thetimescales.com.

      I wanna make it clear that I'm not at all opposed to the idea of including this information. I just want to make sure that we get enough of it to help us — well, okay, me — to devise a template that will allow us to leverage the data in a useful way. And I want to make sure that there are more pages that have this data than that don't.

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    • Czech, should I put together all the info into one place, so if we get enough info, it'll be all there for template making?

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    • After the recent Dalek sale, the following CDs are being shipped to my house.

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    • Cult Of Skaro wrote: Czech, should I put together all the info into one place, so if we get enough info, it'll be all there for template making?

      Indeed. Remember, the only thing we want are actual scans of the credit pages. Please don't type anything in. Scan them and then follow these instructions:

      • Make sure they adhere to T:ICC standards (.jpg, <100kb, you know the drill by now)
      • Apply the following license tag: {{BF credits}}
      • Make the name be precisely this for main DW line: XXX This Is the Title credits.jpg. Thus, if you were doing The Sirens of Time, it'd be 001 The Sirens of Time credits.jpg.
      • Make sure that your extension is .jpg. Not .JPEG, .JPG, .jpeg. Just and only .jpg.

      Using this method will create a very orderly list, categorised at category:BF credits.

      For the other ranges, make an acronym out of the (final) range name, dropping any precedent articles, then add the number of the release, then the full name of the production, then the word "credits" So,

      I know that all of this will probably seem tedious. However, this is an archiving project. These pictures aren't meant for display. They're meant merely to underpin our data set. It's very important that we proceed in an orderly fashion.

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    • All right. I can get to work scanning on Thursday. :)

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    • Almost done with scanning. All I have left are my McCoy stories, my Warner story, and the Gathering, which won't be scanned for a little bit as the CD is in the car.

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    • I have Season 3 and half of Season 4 of Benny, season 3 of the Companion Chronicles as well as a couple from other seasons, UNIT Dominion, Dark Eyes, The Companion Chronicles Specials Box Set, about a dozen various audios from the main range, the Love and War adaptation, The Maltese Penguin, and the two Jago and Litefoot individual releases.

      I don't have a scanner though... would pictures suffice?

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    • You, sir, have a lot of money to spend on BF! ;)

      I'd imagine anything readable would suffice. We don't need amazing image quality; we just need to see how many we can cover, and have images that we can later copy down into text.

      So send in all you've got!

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    • Just don't forget to follow Czech's above instructions!

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    • Ok cool, I'll send them in when I get a chance. Yeah... they aren't cheap... But pretty much my entire collection was bought on sale, so I use that to justify my addiction.

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    • I think images would probably be fine, as long as you make sure the inlay's pretty still, and the image is readable. :) You should leave a message about it on Czech's talk page first, though.

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    • In answer to SpaceTimeWiggles, photos are fine so long as they are clearly legible, and they otherwise obey these rules:

      As revealed upthread, the "appropriate license" here is {{BF credits}}, which you'll have to manually enter into the Special:Upload field next to the words "Categorise your image here".

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    • I'll be scanning more on Saturday, hopefully.

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    • In that event, I'll wait until this weekend for a few more datasets to come in. I'll start constructing the credit template soon, since this project has clearly generated interest involving several members and appears to have a good chance of success.

      Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Please keep posting your image scans of credits so that we can dramatically increase our coverage of the behind-the-scenes aspect of audio production!

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    • CzechOut wrote: In that event, I'll wait until this weekend for a few more datasets to come in. I'll start constructing the credit template soon, since this project has clearly generated interest involving several members and appears to have a good chance of success.

      Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Please keep posting your image scans of credits so that we can dramatically increase our coverage of the behind-the-scenes aspect of audio production!

      Wait, I thought we needed 2/3 of BF's stuff to make a template. So far, I've only scanned 11 things, with 19 or more left (Soon to be 23). Are you just starting now, and continuing as our library grows?

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    • Well I had kinda thrown SpaceTimeWiggles' offer into the mix, which seemed like it would get us close to the 100 mark. Granted, the thing will always need to be adjusted but that seemed like a good sample of credits to start thinking about the design of what will need to be a fairly complicated and flexible template. Obviously, if STW doesn't, in fact, post what's been offered, then it might very well be premature to move on template creation.

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    • CzechOut wrote: Well I had kinda thrown SpaceTimeWiggles' offer into the mix, which seemed like it would get us close to the 100 mark. Granted, the thing will always need to be adjusted but that seemed like a good sample of credits to start thinking about the design of what will need to be a fairly complicated and flexible template. Obviously, if STW doesn't, in fact, post what's been offered, then it might very well be premature to move on template creation.

      Oh, all right. :)

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    • Many of my CDs are in boxes as I'm in the middle of a pretty big move. It might be a couple weeks before I get a chance to upload the pictures.

      I apologize for offering them up prematurely, but I'll definitely get them up eventually.

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    • That's totally fine. You're not under the gun or anything. But when you do get time to do it, it would be helpful to start with the things that aren't in the main range. The point of collecting the data is to be able to start construction on a flexible template to present the crew information in a helpful way. The likelihood is that the non-main-range stuff has credits that are significantly different than the main range, and so would be useful to have first.

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    • CzechOut wrote: That's totally fine. You're not under the gun or anything. But when you do get time to do it, it would be helpful to start with the things that aren't in the main range. The point of collecting the data is to be able to start construction on a flexible template to present the crew information in a helpful way. The likelihood is that the non-main-range stuff has credits that are significantly different than the main range, and so would be useful to have first.

      And by non-main range, I think Czech means not so much the Lost Stories or anything (From what I have of them, there's not much difference in credits) but things like Benny, or Graceless, or Jago and Litefoot as those are actual spinoffs.

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    • Well, for Lost Stories there's the "adapted by" credit.

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    • Also, Real Time (audio story) and presumably Shada include BBCi credits too.

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    • Apologies for not having done any more scanning yet. I'll get to it one of these days!

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    • I don't have a scanner - is this photo quality sufficient?

      File:Real_Time_credits.jpg

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: I don't have a scanner - is this photo quality sufficient?

      File:Real_Time_credits.jpg

      It could be a bit more square, but the quality looks great.

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    • Eh, doesn't even need to be square. I kind of like the imperfection because there's no way you could take that image and reproduce it downstream to any level of quality. All we're looking for is the information, and you've given it to us in under 100kb. So that's a win on every count!

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    • Just got Dark Eyes today. So that's another on the 'to scan' list.

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    • Um, Czech, someone's been adding a ton of random bits of art from UNIT: Dominion to the category...

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    • Bot cleaned up the mess and I changed {{BF credits}} to more prominently include the words "image of the credits page". If this happens again, I might consider moving {{BF credits}} further down the drop-down menu under site maintenance. Don't really want to do that, though, cause it's most logical to put it under the "audio covers" section.

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    • Added a Benny one:

      File:BS_2.4_The_Skymines_of_Karthos.jpg

      Looks like the main difference is the separate opening and closing theme credit for these audios that use the infamous "Adventure is My Game" song.

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: Added a Benny one:

      File:BS_2.4_The_Skymines_of_Karthos.jpg

      Looks like the main difference is the separate opening and closing theme credit for these audios that use the infamous "Adventure is My Game" song.

      And also the 'also available' though that may not count.

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    • Another nice contribution. Honestly these things are better if they aren't perfect. We're really just trying to get passably readable copies. Those of you with scanners will obviously get better results, and that's great, but just taking a quick photo with a camera phone is absolutely fine. Great work, JAL!

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    • "And also the 'also available' though that may not count."

      I'd say it doesn't. It's on the credits page, but not actual part of the credits.

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    • JagoAndLitefoot wrote: "And also the 'also available' though that may not count."

      I'd say it doesn't. It's on the credits page, but not actual part of the credits.

      That said, I don't want to encourage people to crop the photo so that the "also available" section is framed out. We want a picture of the full page.

      The template that results from this project will simply not include an option to list the "also available" section.

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    • And with Dark Eyes scanned, that's all the CDs I have currently scanned! (Though Fanfare for the Common Men is on its way.)

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    • Bumping this thread; has any progress been made in this area?

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    • I have two things to scan in hand (The Foe from the Future and The Valley of Death) and Love and War is on its way. So I'll scan those ASAP.

      EDIT: Actually, I also have The Light at the End and Fanfare for the Common Men. I got a little behind on scanning.

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    • Hey I've been directed here by User:Shambala108 as I have a lot of audios, now I have been thinking which would you prefer me to do, either scan all the credits pages I have and upload them, or go through them, see what credits are shown, record the frequency of each option and post or both?

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    • Scan or photo them. Czech said he just wants actual images of the credits pages.

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    • I'll scan some more as soon as my latest order comes in. I just got Love And War two days ago.

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    • CzechOut wrote:

      Remember, the only thing we want are actual scans of the credit pages. Please don't type anything in. Scan them and then follow these instructions:
      • Make sure they adhere to T:ICC standards (.jpg, <100kb, you know the drill by now)
      • Apply the following license tag: {{BF credits}}
      • Make the name be precisely this for main DW line: XXX This Is the Title credits.jpg. Thus, if you were doing The Sirens of Time, it'd be 001 The Sirens of Time credits.jpg.
      • Make sure that your extension is .jpg. Not .JPEG, .JPG, .jpeg. Just and only .jpg.

      Using this method will create a very orderly list, categorised at category:BF credits.

      For the other ranges, make an acronym out of the (final) range name, dropping any precedent articles, then add the number of the release, then the full name of the production, then the word "credits" So,

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    • At this point, we have 264 images posted in the category. At least one of them is .png and should be changed to .jpg. Some of them might have to be renamed to fit the naming pattern given by CzechOut. Otherwise we have quite a good selection. I did a count, but keep in mind that I don't know much about the audio ranges. I came up with these totals:

      • DW: 142 / 187
      • BS: 2 / 85
      • CC: 42 / 80
      • DWJR: 3 /
      • DWBL: 2 /
      • DWSR: 1 /
      • DWU: 8 / 8
      • EDA: 12 / 33
      • FDA: 9 / 19
      • Gal: 15 / 24
      • ID: 1 /
      • LS: 19 / 29
      • Real Time: 1 /
      • SP1: 1 /
      • The Twilight Kingdom: 1 /
      • UNIT2: 1 /

      At a rough count, we are at about 53%, which is quite close to the 60% that CzechOut was hoping for. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far!

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    • Shambala108 just a note here. The Twilight Kingdom is a DW, I forgot to put a number when uploading, and it wouldn't allow me to change the title or delete it, same with 120 the title needs to be changed , also All the Gallifreys are done, series 1-4 have individual credits but series 5 and 6 have just one for all the series .

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    • What do the files need to be renamed to, exactly? I can do that for you.

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    • Never mind, I just figured it out on my own. But in the future, if you misnamed a file, please append {{rename}} or {{spelt}} to the page so we know it's something that needs renaming.

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    • Great progress here, guys! A little bit more and we can seriously think about moving to phase 2 of this project: actually getting these credits on audio pages in an orderly fashion so that we can leverage the data!

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    • Thank Shambala108, now I know what to do when it happens again, I checked the credits thing and it seems a couple of mine didn't upload properly I'll place them up again when I have access to the scanner again

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    • Maybe you just forgot to add the category?

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    • Here's what DPL tells me you've uploaded recently that's not in that catogory: {{#dpl: |mode = ordered |modifiedby = AdricLovesNyssa |namespace = File |notcategory = BF credits |ordermethod = firstedit |order = descending }}

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    • It's not on my contrubuting/following pages they are 014 Holy Terror and 034 Spare parts that aren't showing

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    • Huh; yeah those two exist and are technically in the category through {{BF credits}} like the others, but don't appear on the category page. Weird...

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    • Hi, I'm just about to reorganise my Big Finish Collection, and I now have audios which currently do not have credit pictures in the Category, should I upload them or has this project been abandoned?

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    • If you have some more, by all means add them. CzechOut's last post on this thread said that all we need was a little more to move to the next phase, so hopefully your new contributions can put us there. Thanks!

      If anyone who has joined the wiki in the last two years would like to participate in this project, please read through this thread carefully to see what we're looking for. We can use all the help we can get.

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    • I would like to participate but sadly have nothing to offer: credits for all (few) CDs I have are already present.

      I would still hate this project to go into hibernation again. I don't think this has been mentioned before on this thread, but CDs can also be harvested for cast information: the cast list on a CD is often longer than that on the webpage.

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    • Trying to generate some new interest in this project. Please, if you are interested in contributing, make sure you read through the entire post for instructions. I just want to make a few points.

      • I don't have any audios, and I have never listened to any of the audios. Therefore, I am dependent on those who have for help in getting this project back on its feet.
      • We have a lot of lists for the DW, CC, and BS ranges. What we would really like is some credit scans from some of the ranges that we don't have yet. That will allow us to get a good idea of what to include on a template.
      • I've created a page listing the different ranges, the prefixes we use, the current number of credits we have and the total number in the range.
      • I also have a few prefixes listed at the bottom of the page that I don't know where they come from.
      • If I have left out any ranges, I would like to know so I can add them to the list.

      The page is located at User:Shambala108/Sandbox. If you see any mistakes I made, or have any suggestions, please let me know on my talk page at User talk:Shambala108. Do not edit the sandbox page; it is a user page and therefore other users are not allowed to edit it.

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    • To note a couple of things:

      • First, I no longer have a page listing the images we already have, and I have de-linked the page in the above post.
      • Second, in the almost two and a half years since someone (me) last posted, not only has there been a ton of more releases, we've had several new editors join us who seem to have an interest in the audios. Therefore, if there are enough users who are interested in this project, we might be able to get it restarted.
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    • Sadly, there has been no activity on this for over three and a half years. I'm closing this thread for now, but if enough users can add to this project, we can re-start it.

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