Just so you know Edit

Some information in the article is incorrect but I can't say what because of the stupid spoiler rule. to me 19:58, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

I think it is all good now. Please, enlighten us. Snivystorm 23:03, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

Infoxbox image Edit

This is just my opinion, but I don't feel that the current infobox image best reflects the events of the episode. The snow scene only took place during the last five minutes. I don't know what everyone else thinks, but is there a better image to represent this episode, perhaps of events which took place on floor 0507? 66 Seconds 22:34, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

It depends on our options. First, we have to assess what the big things were which were The Doctor falling (as the current image displays) Bill's departure (the A plot) the battle on Floor 0507 and the Masters personal fight (the B plot). So far, the current image is the best we have I feel as it showcases the Doctor not only physically on his knees, which indicates the falling aspect, but he is also regenerating, a further display of that as he is dying. Perhaps an image of Bill cradling the Doctor as that encompasses the two main parts of this episode? Personally, the Masters felt secondary so I don't feel they'd be best appropriate as the focus for the image (they got that in the last episode). Just my 2 cents. Snivystorm 22:44, July 1, 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, my main concern when adding this image was removing the promotional image from the infobox, so I went a bit literal from the episode's title. However, if there is a good image that depicts the battle with the Cybermen, I agree that could also be a good option for the infobox. I also agree that the Master wasn't as important to the plot as the Operation Exodus or even the Doctor beggining to regerate, so we probably should not have them in the infobox. OncomingStorm12th 22:53, July 1, 2017 (UTC)
The snow image will never be a suitable image for the episode, as it is clearly just set up for the following story. It even appears that the end was shot later.
The Doctor Fallen
The image of the 12th Doctor talking to the Masters is currently out best bet, because that scene is where the title of the episode comes from in the first place. Moreover, it's easily the most memorable moment. OS25 (Talk) 23:08, July 1, 2017 (UTC)
That is subjective, people remembers bits more prominently than others. Snivystorm 23:17, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

Here, this image surely is the most suitable out of what we have. OS25 (Talk) 23:11, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

I concur, it displays the two most prominent part of the episodes and is a climatic moment. Perhaps the one where Bill cradles the Doctor from the wreckage could be a candidates? Snivystorm 23:17, July 1, 2017 (UTC)
Surely never and surely are just your opinions rather than facts, right OS25? Also, I don't agree that this is quite "the most suitable". I, for one, can't barely make out the Doctor from the floor, and Bill also blends in a lot with the background. OncomingStorm12th 23:18, July 1, 2017 (UTC)
Going quickly through the episode, those were the three images I found that I believe could better summarise the story:
Choice #1 because it shows the "fall" of the Doctor (a theme which began with the opening scene of World Enough and Time and was shown a bit earlier in the episode as well (on the forest, right before the Doctor and Bill meet Missy and the Master)
Choice #2 because it shows both the original model of the Cybermen, and the more upgraded ones
Choice #3 because it shows a Cyberman attacking the Doctor (though I don't think this one is that good, because we don't even see the Doctor's face) OncomingStorm12th 23:14, July 1, 2017 (UTC)
Out of the three you gave, I still believe #1 is the best, the Cybermen weren't the only part of this episode nor was the battle. The title makes it clear what is regarded as the most notable event. Snivystorm 23:19, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

Choice 1 is, again, not really suitable because it comes from the cliffhanger. As was the precedent with TV: The Magician's Apprentice, it's best not to use these images for story infoboxes. By the end of the year, three different episodes will have claimed this moment, and thus it truly does not represent the story in question.

Choices 2 and 3 represent the "Ooh the Cybermen are back" element, but this is truthfully never going to be the thing that people think about when it comes to the episode. See the infobox image for TV: The Angels Take Manhattan. It's not about the returning villains, it's about important scenes in the story that stick with people, and what the episode is actually about.

The story is about a) the struggles of the two Masters, b) Bill's transformation into a Cyberman, and c) the Doctor attempting to make a last stand just for the sake of saving one small village of people. More importantly, it's about him pushing himself to the limit when he's been facing regeneration for a while. The snow scene isn't a good choice because it's set after the main confrontation of the story. Choices 2 and 3 barely encapsulate the most basic and boring elements of the story. Choices 4 and 5 (which you left out of your "selective poll" for some reason, talk about presenting opinions as facts...) meanwhile at least represent important moments. The speech represented in image 4 is literally what the story is named after (albiet changing the word "I" to "the Doctor") and Bill sobbing over the Doctor's body is one of the most integral parts of two out of three of the above storylines. OS25 (Talk) 23:53, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

If it wasn't clear enough the first time I said, "those were the three images I found". I never said they were the only options we had, neither I prohibited anyone else from adding more images to the discussion. But I'll for sure not waste any more time arguing about this. However, I'll agree that now, the new version of choice #5 is not a bad choice, as it's a bit easier to see the Doctor and Bill. OncomingStorm12th 00:36, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
I apologise for the misconception.
I will note that I checked the fan show notes, and the "snow" scene with 12 and Bradley was shot literally less than two weeks ago today. OS25 (Talk) 01:42, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, seeing the new options provided, I have to agree #1 will become applicable to multiple episodes though I still feel it is a better option than the others for the reasons I gave. Option #5 seem so retry suitable though as it encompasses the Doctor near dead, Bill, the effects of the battle and Mondasien Cybermen (4 out of the 5 main events in the episode) so as an all round one, #5 takes the cake. Therefore, it is between Options #1 and #5 for me. Snivystorm 10:27, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
I've added another image which also fits the title of the episode. 66 Seconds 16:41, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
Frankly there's too much white space, and I think it really fails to top 5. OS25 (Talk) 17:57, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
I've moved the image above with the other options. I admit the white smoke background is a bit excessive but it helps us focus in on the prominent gesture in the image (Cyber-Bill and the Doctor) and it displays 3/5 the five big features of the episode (see my comments above for what those are). So far though, I still feel #1 is the best image, though #6 has taken the second spot from #5 for me. Snivystorm 20:03, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
I like #6, but I think it would need to be cropped before going to the infobox. Right now, it doesn't focus on the Doctor and Cyber-Bill as much as it could. OncomingStorm12th 20:07, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
Alright, so I cropped #6 a bit, but you won't be able to see the new version for a bit apparently. Uploads sometimes take a day or so to load right. I've also added two images from the "death" scene, but I'm not against image 6. OS25 (Talk) 23:10, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, that's more like it. #7 is a bit too closeup and is more suited to the Doctor's character page. #8 is just an eye, are busboy too generic and lacks features beyond the battle. Given how the cropping has improved the focus, I am all for #6 bring the infobox image. #1 still works as a good second for me though, as per given reasons. Snivystorm 23:33, July 2, 2017 (UTC)

From a "Tardis:Guide to images" point of view, #2, 3, and 5 are too indistinct and/or dark to make out. #4 and 7 would be ok if they were a bit brighter but as they are, they are too dark to make out. # 1 and 6 are ok but the characters are a bit too small to make out for someone who doesn't know the story, and #8 tells me absolutely nothing about the episode. There are several examples at Tardis:Guide to images#Images must work as thumbnails that should help define what we look for in a story infobox image. Shambala108 03:10, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

Alrighty, with that in mind, I've narrowed down our candidates to these two. Though, ideally, we still could get a better image. Snivystorm 07:39, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
Again, Image #1 will never be an acceptable choice for the infobox of this page. If people want to do more searching, that's admirable, but for now the above choice #2 is our best bet. OS25 (Talk) 01:50, July 4, 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, #1 was a good stand in while we found an appropriate image but it's clear #2 is the superior one. Snivystorm 07:13, July 4, 2017 (UTC)

Production Errors Edit

Would it make sense to edit the Production Errors section to add that Rory and Strax (and maybe Mickey too) were omitted from the companion montage towards the end of this episode? Scoobydooman90001 15:24, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

That's not a production error. --DCLM 15:34, September 10, 2017 (UTC)
To expand on this a bit, anything chosen by the production crew is not a production error. You can find more information at Tardis:Format for television stories#Production errors, Thread:137474, and Forum:Discontinuity revisited#Production errors vs Discontinuity. Shambala108 17:30, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Enemy conflict Edit

Okay, given recent edits, lets decide it here. Is the Master worth being called the enemy in this episode? I feel no, the Cybermen quickly overshadow him; he is simply indifferent in the scenario, he just chooses not to help. Yes, he kills Missy (himself?) but that's practically completely separate to the main story at play. Bar the opening, he is far from the enemy, he even helps kill a Cyberman and just simply wants to leave. So I feel the Cybermen are this episode's antagonists, not the Master. Snivystorm 14:52, December 31, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with that analysis entirely. He was the enemy in the previous episode, he's just not relevant enough to the overall plot to be called a "main enemy" here. --Borisashton 14:57, December 31, 2017 (UTC)