Talk: Reconnaissance Dalek

Rename

Although the Case Files are valid and names from the Files CAN be used, I am against calling it "The Reconnaissance Dalek". Seems both wrong and on the nose for an in-universe article like this one. If it should be changed I'd say it should be called "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution)". --DCLM ☎ 18:12, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

It's the name by which an in-universe character who encountered it chose to call it — no different from how the Dalek in Dalek is known to us as "Metaltron", also an arguably "wrong" and "on-the-name" nickname given to a Dalek by a character who encountered it. Similarly, I don't think Rusty or Lumpy chose those names, and the arguably-inaccuracy and on-the-nosed-ness of both is, I think, obvious.

So I think all precedents are for us to use an arguably-inaccurate or somewhat silly nickname, over just "Species Name (Episode)", when no true name is given. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:17, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

Those names are all used in the narrative of those stories in which they appear. Case File is valid, yes, but it is second-rate compared to the episode to which they are attached. --DCLM ☎ 18:20, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

I don't really see how "the Reconnaissance Dalek" is much different from "the Ux" or "the Remnants". If we have pages at Ux and Remnant, this one could very well be Reconnaissance Dalek (Resolution). OncomingStorm12th ☎ 18:25, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

I agree. "The" is just weird to use here... --DCLM ☎ 18:29, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

@Danniesen: you write ‘Case File is valid, yes, but it is second-rate compared to the episode’. What happened to 'all sources are equal'? Even novelizations are now considered fully on par with any other story, and the Case Files are more of an independent entity than those.

I mean, if we had two conflicting nicknames, I'd probably agree with you to go with the televised one, as it's the one that most people will know. But this is different — we are weighing the name given by the webcast versus a dabbed-description-for-lack-of-a-name.

@OncomingStorm: Hm… I see what you mean, but The Ux and The Remnants are both established as the name for the entire species, and are all plural. Whereas here, it's singular, and as Danniesen noticed doesn't correspond to the actual species name as given in the peiosde — which would be 'Reconnaissance Scout Dalek'. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:10, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

I interpreted this "name" as follows: it is not "The Reconnaissance Dalek", it is "the Reconnaissance Dalek" as in the one the Doctor and company encountered rather than any attempt to give it a name. --Borisashton ☎ 19:33, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

Only thing I have a quarrel(spelling?) with is the use of the word "The". --DCLM ☎ 19:34, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

That's possible, I guess, but it again requires you to ignore that as given in the episode itself, the name of the Dalek caste to which this particular baddun belongs is Reconaissance Scout Daleks, not Reconnaissance Daleks.

So if it's not a name per se, it's at least an original description, rather than just "that one [Name of Species]".

Would "Reconnaissance Dalek" (sans "the") be acceptable, perhaps? It's less cumbersome than "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution)", it's more precise than "Dalek (Resolution)", it doesn't require a dab term unlike the other two, and also unlike the other two, is an actual in-universe descriptor used for this specific Dalek by a character in a valid source. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:43, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think "Reconnaisance Dalek" is a very good suggestion for this page. Personally, I think that it is a very confusing name considering the similar name for the type of this Dalek. To be honest I think the current name is best. The title doesn't need to be precise to its nature as a recon scout because it was the only Dalek seen in the episode so "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution)" is unnecessary. --Borisashton ☎ 20:40, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

Whatever is decided I'm good with that (as long as "The" is not used). --DCLM ☎ 20:48, January 9, 2019 (UTC)

Given that the discussion on this page's name hasn't continued for more than a year and a half, should we simply remove the "this topic might have a better name" banner?CyberFoundries900 ☎ 11:20, September 25, 2020 (UTC)

Indeed not! The discussion hasn't had any effect because no admin has ruled on it yet — not because any kind of consensus has been reached that we shouldn't change the name. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 11:21, September 25, 2020 (UTC)

Ah, my apologies. I didn't know that an admin needed to rule on it. But it is concerning that it's been nearly two years since the name banner was added to the page and nothing has happened yet. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 12:05, September 25, 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I've just rewatched Resolution, and I think we should rename this page to "Recon Scout Dalek (Resolution)" and Reconnaissance scout to "Recon Scout Dalek". When the Thirteenth Doctor confronts the Dalek in its new casing, she says:

Even the Recon Scout Daleks, the first ones out of Skaro. Humanity bands         together, vanquishes you, and buries you for centuries.

What's great about the name "Recon Scout Dalek" is that it's a name directly used in Resolution, rather than being a blend of different terms like the names "Reconnaissance Dalek" or "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek". Its use in Resolution is in a context that works with equal relevance for both this individual Dalek and Recon Scout Daleks as a wider Dalek rank, and also isn't extremely long like "Reconnaissance Scout Dalek (Resolution).

Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with me, something needs to be done with renaming this page and Reconnaissance scout, as this discussion's been dead for nearly two years with no resolution (pun not intended). I find it pretty annoying. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 00:38, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

I strongly oppose using "Recon scout" over "Reconnaissance scout". It's just oral shorthand — we're not going to rename Sonic screwdriver to "Sonic" no matter how many times Thirteen uses it as if it were a noun ("My sonic!…"). For that same reason, it's "reconnaissance scout" unless you're in a hurry because you're being chased by one, please and thank you.

And I don't really see any persuasive argument for renaming to any version of Reconnaissance scout (Resolution). As has been said before, if we're going to simply use a dabbed descriptor, "Dalek (Resolution)" is specific enough without going into its rank. The proposal that opened this discussion was to call it "the Reconnaissance Dalek" because that is a name for this specific individual, given to it by Yaz in retrospect — and which is distinct from the fact that it is "a recon(naissance) scout Dalek". It's, if you will, the difference between a lone Cybermen and the Lone Cyberman. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:53, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

Alright, maybe it's best to just leave the names of Dalek (Resolution) and Reconnaissance scout as they are for now. But if the term "Reconnaissance scout Dalek" gets used in a future story with reference to this Dalek, I propose we change it to Reconnaissance scout Dalek (Resolution).

Also sorry for sounding kind of aggressive in my last comment. I don't mean to be rude at all, I'm just bugged by the rename tags on both this page and Reconnaissance scout having been up for nearly two years with seemingly no conclusion made. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 10:25, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

Let’s wait until the next episode. Given circumstances, that I cannot say without breaking the Spoiler policy, there is a possibility for a reference. And if we don’t, I’ll see if I can get an admin to rule it concluded. —DCLM ☎ 15:04, November 16, 2020 (UTC)

It appears that this time around, "Kevin" is referred to as "the Recon Dalek" in dialogue. With "Recon" being, as was discussed above, just oral shorthand for "Reconnaissance," I think this is another point in favour of "the Reconnaissance Dalek" being an individualised nickname for this specific "reconnaissance scout Dalek". Can we carry on with that rename, or are there further objections? Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:07, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you - "Reconnaissance Dalek" is about as clear and full of a name as we're going to get, and I prefer it over "Reconnaissance scout" as the former specifically refers to it being a Dalek. Also, if we do go with "Reconnaissance Dalek (Resolution)" for this page's name, I believe, therefore, that Reconnaissance scout should be named "Reconnaissance Dalek" for consistency. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 01:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Actually, my proposal was Reconnaissance Dalek for this page, as a nickname given to this specific individual, and Reconnaissance scout (or Dalek reconnaissance scout) for the general Dalek variant. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Reconnaissance Dalek for the individual, and Reconnaissance scout or Dalek reconnaissance scout for the variant, all sound a bit too similar in my opinion; if we were to use Reconnaissance Dalek for the variant, and Reconnaissance Dalek (Resolution) for the individual, then we can distinguish between the two much more clearly. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 01:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Alternatively, we can leave Reconnaissance scout as it is, and call this page Reconnaissance scout (Resolution). It's used to refer to both the variant and the individual, and we've got at least a few pages on Daleks who are never referred to with the word "Dalek" in their name, such as Overseer (Planet of the Ogrons. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 01:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Thing is, if we can avoid dabbing, that is always preferable on its face. And if we have to dab, we should aim for as short a name as possible. There's no reason to move away from "Dalek (Resolution)" if we're going to keep it dabbed anyway.

But what strikes me about the actual script of Revolution of the Daleks is that it has the individual be called "the Reconnaissance Dalek" or "the Recon Dalek" in dialogue, while it refers to its variant as "reconnaissance scout" in dialogue. The variant is never called "Reconnaissance Dalek", and the individual is never called "the reconnaissance scout". So I think the distinction is there, even if it's subtle. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 01:55, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Very well argued. I agree with User:Scrooge MacDuck's proposal. Indeed, if we're given a proper name for something, even a nickname, it is preferable to dabbing. In this case, we follow the script: Reconnaissance Dalek and reconnaissance scout (Dalek reconnaissance scout if recon scout is ever used as a term for a non-Dalek).
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 02:49, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Can I ask, at the risk of seeming ignorant, what dabbing is, and why it's often avoided in page names? Although I do agree with User:Scrooge MacDuck's proposal. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 11:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

"Dabbing" is Wiki-talk for "disambiguating", and "dab term" for "disambiguation term". For example, the page Father (The Story So Far...) is dabbed because there are other Fathers in the DWU and we can't have it at Father. Our usage of the term, for the record, predates the memetic dance move. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 11:39, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. In that case, yeah, the name changes you proposed make sense. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 11:56, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I know this discussion's kind of over, but I just wondered something. User:Scrooge MacDuck previously argued that one reason to go with the name "Reconnaissance Dalek" is because it's referred to in Revolution of the Daleks as the "Recon Dalek", with "Recon" merely being an abbreviation of "Reconnaissance".

In Resolution, the Doctor, when confronting the Recon Dalek, uses the term "Recon scout Daleks" to refer to the Reconnaissance scout species, and then states immediately afterwards "humanity bands together, vanquishes you", which can be seen as her using the term "Recon scout Dalek" to refer to the individual Recon Dalek as well.

If "Reconnaissance Dalek" is a valid name because "Recon" is an abbreviation of "Reconnaissance", then is it possible for the term "Reconnaissance scout Dalek" to technically be a valid name as well? I can understand wanting to perhaps stick with the name "Reconnaissance Dalek" for the individual so as to avoid disambiguation (as the alternative name would be "Reconnaissance scout Dalek (Resolution), but perhaps it's a more specific term for the species than Reconnaissance scout. I know this is a query referring to the species more than the individual, but given that the name discussion's on this talk page, it seemed more appropriate to raise the question here. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 23:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

It's a fair question, but I direct you to Talk:Reconnaissance scout where it has in fact already been addressed. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 23:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)