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| − | According to an issue of Doctor Who Adventures, in the comic, the Doctor said that nearly every species was part of the Time War (although not at the same time and not for the whole of the Time War, I think only the Daleks and Time Lords were in the Time War for the whole war). I'm usure where to put this infomation. anyone?---[[User:Sichamousacoricothingmabob|Si]] <span class="plainlinks">[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/user:Sichamousacoricothingmabob/Human_Time_Lords http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/e4/Si_HTL_Seal_Leader.PNG]</span> 16:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC) |
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| − | All the species were involved, sure, because they're all involved in time. Not all species fought, however; take the Sontarans, for instance. |
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| + | ==Shouldn't "The Parting of the Ways" be in the main History section?== |
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| − | Is there any information as to which Doctor was involved in the Time War? I'm assuming it was the Eighth Doctor, unless he regenerated before the Time War. [[Special:Contributions/82.46.190.172|82.46.190.172]] 01:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC) |
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| + | The conventional wisdom may be that the Doctor ended the Time War when he destroyed (or [[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|"destroyed"]]) Gallifrey and the Daleks using the Moment. The article as written seems to reflect that. |
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| + | However, there's significant in-universe evidence that the [[Dalek Emperor (The Parting of the Ways)|Dalek Emperor]]'s survival and schemes as seen in ''[[Bad Wolf (TV story)|Bad Wolf]]'' and ''[[The Parting of the Ways (TV story)|The Parting of the Ways]]'', and his destruction at the glowy hands of the [[Bad Wolf (entity)|Bad Wolf entity]], ought to be considered the actual last battle in the Time War. |
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| − | Could someone remove the obvious vandalism here? I would, but I don't even watch Dr. Who.[[Special:Contributions/98.201.35.10|98.201.35.10]] 00:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC) |
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| + | The first quote is right in ''The Parting of the Ways'': as she is about to disintegrate the Emperor, Bad Wolf Rose declares that "the Time War ends", present tense. |
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| − | == When did the war happen == |
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| + | The second is from ''[[Utopia (TV story)|Utopia]]'': the Doctor thinks Jack's "ultra-resurrection" by the Bad Wolf Entity has a twinge of poetic irony about it, because it means that "the last act in the Time War was Life" — which shows even more explicitly that such a major player in the War as the Doctor thinks it only ended on the Game Station. |
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| − | I have just gotten back into Dr. Who. Watched it as a kid on PBS and now that Scifi has it, I have gotten back in. In whatch many old episodes i saw the time lords still alive and have yet to figure out when the time war happened. Can any one tell me at least what Dr. fought in the war I know it had to be the 7th to 4th, but want to narrow it down. |
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| + | This would be a pretty major edit to the page, though, so I thought it wiser to write this up here and get a second opinion or five. So… thoughts? --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:29, June 30, 2019 (UTC) |
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| − | :The Time War happens off screen at some point after the [[Doctor Who (1996)]] film with Doctor number 8 and [[Rose (TV story)]] at the start of the revived series with doc number 9 - it has not yet been shown on TV, just something that is reffered to. It's not entirely clear what happens in it as a result. [[User:Jack's the man|Jack's]] [[User talk:Jack's the man|the]] [[Special:Contributions/Jack's the man|man]] - 23:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC) |
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| + | : This is compelling, but that evidence is a bit in tension with ''[[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]''{{'}}s explicit identification of the [[Fall of Arcadia]] as occurring on "The Last Day of the Time War". – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 20:32, June 30, 2019 (UTC) |
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| + | :: Good point, but nothing we can't cover with "another account" language, if even that. All it would take would be to preface the section about the Game Station with something along the lines of: |
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| + | ::: ''"Although the day upon which Arcadia fell and Gallifrey disappeared was often referred to as the last day of the Time War ([[TV]]: [[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]), the Dalek Emperor survived the destruction of his fleet, and......([[TV]]: [[The Parting of the Ways (TV story)|The Parting of the Ways]]).''" |
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| + | ::Don't you thinK? |
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| + | ::Best to keep in mind, I think, that human <small>(well, sentient-beings, in a ''Doctor Who'' context)</small> events like wars don't have ''objective'' beginnings and ends; it's a matter of convention, decided upon after all is said and done. Just like Wikipedia would report the controversies among historians of a real war, so should we report that the Bad Wolf Entity and the Tenth Doctor said one thing, but later the Eleventh Doctor said another thing. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:43, June 30, 2019 (UTC) |
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| − | Hello, |
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| + | : I had been meaning to bring this up because the [[The Day of the Doctor (novelisation)|novelisation]] of ''Day'' establishes that there were many days the Doctor considered to be the "last" of the Time War. Honestly, to chronicle all of these days I considered creating [[Last Day of the Time War]] which included the fall of Arcadia, the Eighth Doctor's regeneration, the War Doctor visiting the barn, the Tenth Doctor kissing Queen Elizabeth, the Doctors being trapped in a cell, and the Eleventh Doctor and Clara visiting the National Gallery. Obviously, other sources where a "last act" is mentioned are also relevant. Here is the relevant passage: |
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| − | I must ask this question. Why does this article suggest the doctor implied he played a great part in the Time war(sourcing Dalek) then suddenly following up that he only suggested it because the Beast called him killer of his own kind(Satan Pit). These two episode are not related and did not even happen to the same doctor. |
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| + | :{{quote|The last day of the Time War. That was wrong, he suddenly realised. Because somehow all those different days, spread across his life, were also the last day. Somehow the last day had become millions of days, each of them, impossibly, the last. ''No such thing as last'', something screamed in his mind, laughing at him.|Eleventh Doctor|The Day of the Doctor (novelisation)}} |
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| − | Doctor Who IX didn't imply a major role, he outright states he watched the ship burn, then stresses that he made them burn. This does not say implication to me. |
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| − | Doctor Who X has built on that admission through implication, such as the Satan Pit, when the Beast calls him Killer of his own kind, the Doctor doesn't challenge him implying that he is right. |
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| + | :: What I think? Right now, I'm thinking two things, "bless good ol'Steven Moffat clearing up Wiki problems before we even think of them" and "I should really buy the ''Day of the Doctor'' novelisation already". |
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| + | :: More seriously, this quote alone warrants… well, if not a ''page'' on the Last Day, then at least a hefty section on "Last Great Time War". No questions about it, far as I'm concerned. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:03, June 30, 2019 (UTC) |
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| − | In essence, I think this article needs to be cleared up in that respect. |
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| + | ::: Count me in for [[Last Day of the Time War]]! – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 23:18, June 30, 2019 (UTC) |
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| − | Also I don't know how cannon a comic book store is to the overall story of the Doctor. I have doubts about the peace treaty that allowed the Doctor to take the Master's remains from Skaro. If you watch the movie, you see that the Daleks judge the Master for all his evil crimes...almost as if they were acting as fair and impartial judges, strange when the Master has worked with them. I think some of the movie is confusing enough without mixing in questionable cannon of comic books. That, however, is mere opinion. |
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| + | ::::Why do we need a page for such a thing when we already have a section on this page devoted to the last day? [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:23, June 30, 2019 (UTC) |
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| − | [[User:Tekphoenix|Tekphoenix]] 03:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)Fola[[User:Tekphoenix|Tekphoenix]] 03:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC) |
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| + | ::::: Well, considering that, as a topic in the Doctor Who universe, the Time War is a lot more than just its ending; and that, given the conflicting ideas concerning when it happened, a full description will take a lot more than just a summary of events; I think it wouldn't be crazy to have a separate page dedicated to the Last Day with a less-detailed description on this page. We have a page for [[The Peace]] despite it having its own section on the [[War in Heaven]]; we have a page for [[Gallifreyan physiology]] despite it having its own section on [[Time Lord]]. It's why [[:Template:Main]] exists. And isn't our wiki's policy that any noun is eligible for its own page? I might be misremembering! – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 00:50, July 1, 2019 (UTC) |
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| + | ::::::Not to be all nit-picky and grammar-y, but "Last day of the Time War" isn't a noun, it's a phrase. I still don't get what's so wrong with writing a full treatment on this page, where a section already exists, instead of making users go to another page to get the full information? [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:31, July 1, 2019 (UTC) |
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| + | :::::::Nit-picky and grammar-y is exactly what we need :) I still think [[Last Day of the Time War]] is appropriate, if just because "Last Day" is given as a proper noun in ''[[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]'', but you've persuaded me that it's no longer as clear-cut as I originally saw it. I look forward to following the further conversation on this page. – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 14:34, July 1, 2019 (UTC) |
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| + | ::: I think an article like Last Day of the Time War makes sense as this article presents the Time War in a linear sense (as much as that can be achieved) but the Doctor doesn't see it like that, many days throughout the war are the last day. In my opinion, if we were to put all the last days in the [[Last Great Time War#Nearing the end|last days section]] it would be incredibly jarring to readers. Imagine following the war chronologically down the page and when coming to the conclusion of the war you are greeted with the events of ''[[The Night of the Doctor (TV story)|The Night of the Doctor]]'' and ''[[Bad Wolf (TV story)|Bad Wolf]]'' / ''[[The Parting of the Ways (TV story)|The Parting of the Ways]]'', stuff that is repeated in its entirety in the [[Last Great Time War#Involvement of the Eighth Doctor|Involvement of the Eighth Doctor]] and [[Last Great Time War#Aftermath|Aftermath]] sections. It would be ridiculous! |
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| + | ::: In short, putting it all on a single section within the main part of this article wouldn't work because the last days as the Doctor sees them are actually multiple events spread across their lives and the war itself. --[[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:10, July 2, 2019 (UTC) |
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| − | the reason it is implied that the doctor says to the Dalek in van staterns lab in the episode dalek when talking about the end of the time war |
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| − | 'I watched it happen I made it Happen' |
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| − | also in the sound of drums he tells the master that he ended the war and that the timelords and fro most part the daleks were dead |
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| − | Watch the episodes Dalek , sound of drums and the episode satan pit that sohuold show you why it is implied. |
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| − | As for the fair trial look at Romannas page i belive that explains it |
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| − | [[User:Assassin of death|Assassin of death]] 13:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | Assassin of death |
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| − | Hi, |
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| − | I have always believed that as the first mention of the actual time war seems to be in the 9th doctors series that either the 8th Doctor (Paul Mcgann) or the 9th Doctor took place in the time war, though I;'m not sure if the time or Doctor has actually been decided yet. That my view anyway, thanks for listening. |
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| − | == Where did the pic in this article come from? == |
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| − | It shows an explosion below and a bunch of saucers (Dalek ships, most likely) being swallowed up in the blast and exploding. Was this the Doctor sending an explosive to the surface of Gallifrey and blowing it up to kill the Daleks? I've never seen an actual flashback segment of the War on the tv series so where does this pic come from? [[User:Bttsstewart|Bttsstewart]] 01:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | :The picture is from [http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/guide.shtml here], under the Daleks. -<[[User:Azes13|Azes13]] 02:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Is that picture actually cannon? It looks like it is the same picture on that site under daleks that represents "Skaro-Dalek Planet," but with fire added to the Dalek ships.Icecreamdif 02:34, May 12, 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | == Survivors == |
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| − | As is, this article says there were only two Time Lord survivors. Yet before the Master's return we would have said there was only one survivor. So we have no way of knowing for sure just how many survivors there are. Shouldn't this be 'possibly two' instead? |
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| − | "Two known survivors" would be the standard phrasing. Please sign your contributions to a talk page.[[User:Boblipton|Boblipton]] 17:41, September 15, 2011 (UTC) |
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| − | == Removed origins section == |
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| − | Look, unless there's narrative proof somewhere that these are "early strikes" of the Time War, we can't use any of this. Even in the 2006 Annual article (which [[Tardis:Valid sources|we can only use provided it's in the behind the scenes section]]), it mentions the story of the war is hard to piece together, and the exact cause of the escalations and the start of the war isn't clear at all. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 19:27, March 5, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | : The Time Lords predicted that in one possible [[timeline]], the Daleks would "destroy all other life forms and make themselves the dominant creature in the [[universe]]." The [[Time Lord]] [[Ferain]] sent the [[Fourth Doctor]] on a mission to [[Skaro]] during the [[Thousand Year War]] with certain objectives: |
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| − | :* If possible, to avert the [[creation of the Daleks]] |
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| − | :* Otherwise to alter their development and make them less aggressive |
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| − | :* To find some intrinsic flaw or weakness to exploit in the Daleks |
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| − | : The Doctor believed he might have set back the history of the Daleks for a thousand years. ([[TV]]: ''[[Genesis of the Daleks (TV story)|Genesis of the Daleks]]'') |
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| − | : Several key events occurred even before the Fourth Doctor's interference. These, including the Daleks' achievement of [[time travel]] with the [[TARDIS]]-esque [[Dalek time machine]] ([[TV]]: ''[[The Chase (TV story)|The Chase]]'') and the Time Lords helping the [[Third Doctor]] navigate his [[the Doctor's TARDIS|TARDIS]] to [[Spiridon]], ([[TV]]: ''[[Planet of the Daleks (TV story)|Planet of the Daleks]]'') were early shots fired in the Time War. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Dalek Conquests (audio story)|The Dalek Conquests]]'') |
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| − | : The Daleks learned of the Time Lords' efforts and planned to use [[Dalek Duplicate|duplicates]] of the [[Fifth Doctor]] and his companions to assassinate the [[High Council]] of the [[Time Lord]]s. These duplicates were killed when the station they were on was destroyed. ([[TV]]: ''[[Resurrection of the Daleks]]'') One of the [[Dalek Emperor|Dalek Puppet Emperors]] declared hostilities, although the Daleks claimed these were in retaliation for the [[Time Lord]]s sending the Fourth Doctor back in time to prevent their creation. |
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| − | : Later, the [[Seventh Doctor]] used the [[Hand of Omega]] to apparently destroy the Dalek homeworld of Skaro. ([[TV]]: ''[[Remembrance of the Daleks (TV story)|Remembrance of the Daleks]]'') |
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| − | : The Daleks launched over a [[Dalek Saucer|thousand ships]] into the [[Time Vortex]], These forces were stopped by the [[Eighth Doctor]], who left them trapped there. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Time of the Daleks]]'') The Daleks later made a deal with the Time Lords that allowed the Dalek fleet to leave the Time Vortex. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Neverland]]'') |
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| − | The [[Captain Jack's Monster Files]] episode on the Daleks makes it very clear that the Doctor trying to revert their history is what lead the Daleks and the Time Lords to go to war. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 19:43, March 5, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | : Maybe I'm reaching out on this, and I'm sure some would argue it IS an origin, albeit a far reaching-one, but the way I see read it is essentially, "the Fourth Doctor didn't prevent their creation, and seeing as they exist, they later fought in a war", and you could essentially replace any Dalek-related war with that. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 19:54, March 5, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :: That quote was directly followed by talk of the time war. Obiously meant to be this. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 20:02, March 5, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::This is also confirmed in [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Ascension (audio story)|Ascension]]''. [[User:JagoAndLitefoot|JagoAndLitefoot]] [[User talk:JagoAndLitefoot|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:48, November 1, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::: Okay, as I've not listened to it, in what way does ''Ascension'' mention or confirm the link between the Doctor being sent back to the Daleks' creation and the Time War? I thought Big Finish had their hands tied regarding that. The FAQ [http://bigfinish.com/pages/v/faqs outright says] they are ''unable'' to feature the Time War in "any of [their] stories". -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 18:56, November 1, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::::They got a special one-time permission from BBC to include small links to the Time War in this release, which includes the [http://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/gallifrey-series-6-box-set-785 new series Daleks on the cover of Gallifrey VI]. Basically, Narvin sending Valyes to have the Doctor destroy the Daleks is said in ''Ascension'' to be a potential start of a major temporal war. It (the special permission) is discussed in the behind the scenes commentary. [[User:JagoAndLitefoot|JagoAndLitefoot]] [[User talk:JagoAndLitefoot|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:08, November 1, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == Involvement of the Doctor == |
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| − | I think we are speculating too much about the initial involvement of the Doctor in the war, while trying to find a harmony between the old and the new sources. The accounts from ''The Museum Piece'' and ''The Forgotten'' are contradictory compared with the new TV events. We should write, after ''The Night..'' and ''The Day of the Doctor'' accounts: |
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| − | :''According to other accounts, the Eight Doctor decided to start fighting after etc.... and he helped building the Moment etc.... |
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| − | [[User:HarveyWallbanger|HarveyWallbanger]] [[User talk:HarveyWallbanger|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:56, November 26, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | : I did try the "according to one account" regarding ''Peace'' but one of the editors (who unlike me has actually read ''Peace'') reverted, [http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Last_Great_Time_War&diff=1587313&oldid=1587275 claiming that the ending was "left open"], implying wiggle room to reconicle ''Night of the Doctor''. That said, in ''[[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]'' the War Doctor is clearly only vaguely familiar with the Moment's conscience and can't even operate it, so I don't think there will be any real complaints considering ''The Forgotten'' as irreconcilable. Looking at both this page and [[Great Key of Rassilon]], however, it looks like ''Don't Step on the Grass'' is the comic which uses the term "the Moment". -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 15:59, November 26, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Basically The Forgotten isn't completely contradicted by the Moment depicted in TDOTD. The Eighth Doctor retrieves the Great Key and what-not, and gives an explanation that he doesn't want to use it etc. A lot of things could have happened between The Forgotten and The Night of the Doctor, and we haven't exactly been told what. The problem from the IDW sources comes from Don't Step on the Grass, really, as the Tenth Doctor says that the Moment was activated by the Doctor "turning the key in the lock", which implies that the Great Key was a component of Moment. So clearly a contradiction exists between what Don't Step on the Grass says about the Moment, and what The Day of the Doctor says. From that point of view, and "according to this source" type of language should be used to describe what Don't Step on the Grass says, rather than The Forgotten. |
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| − | To further clarify the Museum Peace argument, the story ends with a child being killed by a lone Dalek, and whilst Kalendorf stays with the authorities dealing with the incident, he is asked by one about the other man who was with him in the museum. Kalendorf replies to the question "who was the other man in the room?" with "a man looking for peace". |
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| − | That's literally the closing line of the story, so as you can see there's plenty of "wiggle room" for Museum Peace to still fit with the picture of the Time War created by The Night of the Doctor. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 16:18, November 26, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == Change, or predestination? == |
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| − | A question I'd like to pose, in regard to both this article and the rest that are associated with it, chiefly the Ninth Doctor's page and The Day of the Doctor. Now, the articles around here written under the belief that the Time War was ALWAYS prevented by War, 10 and 11, but I personally beg to differ, instead believing that the Time War had originally ended WITH the destruction of Gallifrey by the Doctor, and that the Moment was influenced by Bad Wolf's personality to change history by having 10 and 11 involved. |
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| − | But anyway, my question is, where is the general belief included in the articles derive from? I wish to know, because there's an equal possibility of what I'm suggesting (to which I'm not exclusive to) also occuring. Was this commonly decided by the site's mods? |
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| − | Thank you for your time.{{Unsigned|HighlanderFan83}} |
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| − | : I suppose the main reason ''I'' think it was predestination was the mind wipe due to timelines being out of sync, along with the fact that the guilt for the Time War remained. Personally, while I personally think it always happened as it did, the "And I've seen that" could easily be interpreted to mean "I saw Gallifrey taken into the pocket universe while the Daleks blew each other up, but the time sync memories made me think I pressed the button and made it burn" AS WELL AS "I saw Gallifrey burn as I pressed the button alone in the original version of events". Maybe that's just me. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 17:45, December 9, 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I don't know, it seems to me like he had a pretty clear idea of what he did that day, before. Not like "I had a blur" or "I did it... but I don't remember anything afterwards" sort of thing. The "I've seen that" is pretty decisively meant to refer to the Doctor having SEEN the destruction happen. |
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| − | ::The out-of-sync, I took, as the Doctors resuming their lives with only the most minimal of memories, and practically no remembrance of anything having happened on War and 10's part of having met 11 - whereas 11 remembers meeting them. That has been done before in the audio story [[The Four Doctors]]. Thus, they'd remember that they remembered on the original "timeline" - remember, the Doctor has noted that he can feel the change in time, as he's a Time Lord, and that allows him to have an extra sensor about the shift in the timelines. |
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| − | ::Besides, it greatly takes away from the drama and joy of the special if the Doctor always did saved Gallifrey. When Eleven admits that he "changed his mind", its a revolutionary moment that has the Doctor willing to save his own world, for once, regardless of the Time Lords. HighlanderFan83 |
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| − | : I actually listed a few reasons right [[Talk:War Doctor#Original timeline|here]]. [[User:TheMostBoringManInTheWorld|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;">'''TheMostBoringManInTheWorld'''</span>]] [[User talk:TheMostBoringManInTheWorld|<span style="color:#4169E1;">'''(talk)'''</span>]] 07:05, January 10, 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | So quick thought I had with respect to the Time Lock. from the perspective of the 9th and 10th Doctors, The Moment was used to end the Time War, Time Locking it in the process. The 11th Doctor also believed this to have been the case for the better part of his life, until The Day of the Doctor when he was able to retain the memories. Now, the 9th and 10th Doctors both believed that they used The Moment to end The Time War. However, they simply don't remember the events of The Day of the Doctor. So because The Moment was actually never used, and thus The Time War was never Time Locked. Anyone else see what I'm getting at here, or is it just me? [[User:Kremlin16|Kremlin16]] [[User talk:Kremlin16|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:06, January 10, 2014 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 16:10, 2 July 2019
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Shouldn't "The Parting of the Ways" be in the main History section?
The conventional wisdom may be that the Doctor ended the Time War when he destroyed (or "destroyed") Gallifrey and the Daleks using the Moment. The article as written seems to reflect that.
However, there's significant in-universe evidence that the Dalek Emperor's survival and schemes as seen in Bad Wolf and The Parting of the Ways, and his destruction at the glowy hands of the Bad Wolf entity, ought to be considered the actual last battle in the Time War.
The first quote is right in The Parting of the Ways: as she is about to disintegrate the Emperor, Bad Wolf Rose declares that "the Time War ends", present tense.
The second is from Utopia: the Doctor thinks Jack's "ultra-resurrection" by the Bad Wolf Entity has a twinge of poetic irony about it, because it means that "the last act in the Time War was Life" — which shows even more explicitly that such a major player in the War as the Doctor thinks it only ended on the Game Station.
This would be a pretty major edit to the page, though, so I thought it wiser to write this up here and get a second opinion or five. So… thoughts? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 12:29, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- This is compelling, but that evidence is a bit in tension with The Day of the Doctor's explicit identification of the Fall of Arcadia as occurring on "The Last Day of the Time War". – N8 ☎ 20:32, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Good point, but nothing we can't cover with "another account" language, if even that. All it would take would be to preface the section about the Game Station with something along the lines of:
- "Although the day upon which Arcadia fell and Gallifrey disappeared was often referred to as the last day of the Time War (TV: The Day of the Doctor), the Dalek Emperor survived the destruction of his fleet, and......(TV: The Parting of the Ways)."
- Don't you thinK?
- Good point, but nothing we can't cover with "another account" language, if even that. All it would take would be to preface the section about the Game Station with something along the lines of:
- Best to keep in mind, I think, that human (well, sentient-beings, in a Doctor Who context) events like wars don't have objective beginnings and ends; it's a matter of convention, decided upon after all is said and done. Just like Wikipedia would report the controversies among historians of a real war, so should we report that the Bad Wolf Entity and the Tenth Doctor said one thing, but later the Eleventh Doctor said another thing. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 20:43, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- I had been meaning to bring this up because the novelisation of Day establishes that there were many days the Doctor considered to be the "last" of the Time War. Honestly, to chronicle all of these days I considered creating Last Day of the Time War which included the fall of Arcadia, the Eighth Doctor's regeneration, the War Doctor visiting the barn, the Tenth Doctor kissing Queen Elizabeth, the Doctors being trapped in a cell, and the Eleventh Doctor and Clara visiting the National Gallery. Obviously, other sources where a "last act" is mentioned are also relevant. Here is the relevant passage:
The last day of the Time War. That was wrong, he suddenly realised. Because somehow all those different days, spread across his life, were also the last day. Somehow the last day had become millions of days, each of them, impossibly, the last. No such thing as last, something screamed in his mind, laughing at him.
- What do other people think? --Borisashton ☎ 20:54, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- What I think? Right now, I'm thinking two things, "bless good ol'Steven Moffat clearing up Wiki problems before we even think of them" and "I should really buy the Day of the Doctor novelisation already".
- More seriously, this quote alone warrants… well, if not a page on the Last Day, then at least a hefty section on "Last Great Time War". No questions about it, far as I'm concerned. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:03, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Why do we need a page for such a thing when we already have a section on this page devoted to the last day? Shambala108 ☎ 23:23, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Well, considering that, as a topic in the Doctor Who universe, the Time War is a lot more than just its ending; and that, given the conflicting ideas concerning when it happened, a full description will take a lot more than just a summary of events; I think it wouldn't be crazy to have a separate page dedicated to the Last Day with a less-detailed description on this page. We have a page for The Peace despite it having its own section on the War in Heaven; we have a page for Gallifreyan physiology despite it having its own section on Time Lord. It's why Template:Main exists. And isn't our wiki's policy that any noun is eligible for its own page? I might be misremembering! – N8 ☎ 00:50, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Not to be all nit-picky and grammar-y, but "Last day of the Time War" isn't a noun, it's a phrase. I still don't get what's so wrong with writing a full treatment on this page, where a section already exists, instead of making users go to another page to get the full information? Shambala108 ☎ 02:31, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Nit-picky and grammar-y is exactly what we need :) I still think Last Day of the Time War is appropriate, if just because "Last Day" is given as a proper noun in The Day of the Doctor, but you've persuaded me that it's no longer as clear-cut as I originally saw it. I look forward to following the further conversation on this page. – N8 ☎ 14:34, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Not to be all nit-picky and grammar-y, but "Last day of the Time War" isn't a noun, it's a phrase. I still don't get what's so wrong with writing a full treatment on this page, where a section already exists, instead of making users go to another page to get the full information? Shambala108 ☎ 02:31, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Well, considering that, as a topic in the Doctor Who universe, the Time War is a lot more than just its ending; and that, given the conflicting ideas concerning when it happened, a full description will take a lot more than just a summary of events; I think it wouldn't be crazy to have a separate page dedicated to the Last Day with a less-detailed description on this page. We have a page for The Peace despite it having its own section on the War in Heaven; we have a page for Gallifreyan physiology despite it having its own section on Time Lord. It's why Template:Main exists. And isn't our wiki's policy that any noun is eligible for its own page? I might be misremembering! – N8 ☎ 00:50, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- I think an article like Last Day of the Time War makes sense as this article presents the Time War in a linear sense (as much as that can be achieved) but the Doctor doesn't see it like that, many days throughout the war are the last day. In my opinion, if we were to put all the last days in the last days section it would be incredibly jarring to readers. Imagine following the war chronologically down the page and when coming to the conclusion of the war you are greeted with the events of The Night of the Doctor and Bad Wolf / The Parting of the Ways, stuff that is repeated in its entirety in the Involvement of the Eighth Doctor and Aftermath sections. It would be ridiculous!
- In short, putting it all on a single section within the main part of this article wouldn't work because the last days as the Doctor sees them are actually multiple events spread across their lives and the war itself. --Borisashton ☎ 16:10, July 2, 2019 (UTC)