Where was Goth in the Mind Robber? 11:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

He is "Gulliver" its mentioned in the article that he was working for the Time Lords if i remember correctly Bigshowbower 11:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone ever speculated about his character in Planet of the Daleks, who appears to be quite the anomaly amongst the more pacifist Thals and even stands out amongst the bunch he's with in that story as being the brave, less pacifist one, which very much gels with his character in The Deadly Assassin, who can be quite brutal, and is certainly the most commanding member of the tribunal in The War Games. And if Troughton didn't recognize/sense Gulliver was Goth or a Time Lord, it's possible to also work in the Pertwee appearance as another CIA incident where the Time Lords were keeping tabs on him. It's interesting speculation at least and makes for an even more interesting character if they are actually all one and the same, sometimes undercover with some way of masking his identity (which even works well with the fact that he is disguised through much of The Deadly Assassin, which makes that a recurring behavior of his). NileQT87 07:55, May 20, 2011 (UTC)
For discussion speculation I would suggest The Howling. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:29, May 20, 2011 (UTC)
I don't know about inferring all of that from Future Imperfect.
In it, the Doctor realizes Gulliver has broken from the pattern of repeating Swift's lines, and notices - "That face. Long ago, he had seen it, presiding over hearings at the Celestial Intervention Agency." It seems that Goth has merely disguised himself as Gulliver in Future Imperfect, and there's nothing to imply that he had been disguised as Gulliver for all of The Mind Robber. Especially as he's in the Land of Fiction just to pick up the Doctor and take him to The Three Doctors. There's also nothing that says definitively that Goth is the Time Lord from The War Games in Future Imperfect. The trial isn't even mentioned. The closest is this exchange:
Doctor: "No! I won't stay! I won't be locked up by you and your boring bureaucratic… inkslingers!"
Goth: "That time is long in your future. And long in our past."
…which could just mean the Time Lords' past. Course, considering the Time Lord in The War Games is unnamed, it very well could be Goth, and it seems a safe assumption, but to use Future Imperfect as a citation (or to say Gulliver is always Goth) is going a bit far. - Constonks 02:16, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again, but is Goth really Time Lord 1? He seems to know little about the Doctor's sentence which he sanctioned; it also states on Horsfall's page that he played three separate characters. Surely there needs to be some consistency established? RavenclawDBS (MCKA DevilboyScooby) 22:12, July 5, 2016 (UTC)
Furthermore, the BBC website page for TDA lists him as having previously played "an unnamed time lord" in TWG. RavenclawDBS (MCKA DevilboyScooby) 22:17, July 5, 2016 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure why there is a discussion of Goth being Gulliver based on Future Imperfect when it has the Second Doctor clearly stating, "I mean, you're not Gulliver at all!" Moreover, the description of Goth there is: "The face was familiar. [The Doctor] recognised the tricorn and pigtailed hair of the fellow traveller immediately." and then "The Doctor stared at the familiar face. "But I know you from somewhere."" In other words, while the tricorn and hair are directly connected to Gulliver, the face is not.

It has already been established in Forum:Is Bernard Horsfall playing the same character in The War Games and The Deadly Assassin? that there is no in-universe evidence to connect Goth to The War Games. I am now wondering where the connection to Gulliver in The Mind Robber comes from? Amorkuz 19:07, May 27, 2018 (UTC)

For completeness purposes, a seemingly undiscussed info from War Crimes. I provide a quote with more than enough material so as to not miss any context:

In the aftermath of these brutal War Games and after the punishment of those responsible, it has been possible, my lords, to return most of the survivors to [...] However, certain experimental subjects from the War Lords' earlier activities are beyond conventional medical help, even our own.

It is the decision of this Tribunal that these creatures [...] Be it recorded that the Prydonian Tribune Gothaparduskerialldrapolatkh dissented from this majority judgement and argued that the creatures [...]Evidence of the Tribunal to the High Council War Crimes Commission [src]

I'm not sure yet whether this changes anything, but it had to be mentioned for completeness' sake. Amorkuz 21:15, May 27, 2018 (UTC)

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