Building the pageEdit
I'm not sure this page passes the wiki's rules about speculation on in-universe pages. Namely, I contest the idea that any in-universe source indicates that the giant TARDIS + battlefield on Trenzalore is an alternate timeline. In fact, if we look at out-of-universe sources, Moffat unequivocally declared that, in keeping with the rules of time travel established in TV: The Angels Take Manhattan, the battlefield, the gigantic TARDIS, and the Doctor's timeline scar thing still exist in Trenzalore's future, even after The Time of the Doctor. In fact, Moffat notably places these words in the Doctor's mouth, not his own, so this might actually count as an in-universe source?
This is an extremely well-written page, and it should definitely be preserved in some form, but I don't think the "alternate timeline" interpretation is based on in-universe evidence. Am I missing anything? – N8 ☎ 18:16, January 17, 2018 (UTC)
- I don't get how its supposed to be speculative. In the show it was specifically stated that the Doctor changed the future when he regenerated. I mean there was some serious dialogue about changing the future in Time of and how this was the Doctor's future from that point on Trenzalore and a lot of begging by Clara to change it. She also stated that she saw his eleven faces while in his time stream on Trenzalore and was thus confused when she saw the War Doctor's face. If this is still in the Doctor's future, then why didn't she see the faces of the Twelfth Doctor or the Thirteenth Doctor??? And the entire Trenzalore storyline was centered around the prophecy of The Question which has been resolved. So what possible reason could there be for this to still exist in the Doctor's future aside from out-of-universe information by the writers??? Add that to a behind-the-scenes section if you must but in the show there is nothing to indicate that this is anything more than an alternate timeline. I think when they were dealing with the Fisher King Clara mentioned something about changing the future before and the Doctor called those times them changing possible futures but the thing with the Fisher King was different.--WarGrowlmon18 ☎ 21:53, January 17, 2018 (UTC)
- Just because the arc has been resolved doesn't mean the tomb can't still exist. The Doctor's still going to die one day, and maybe he just asked to buried on Trenzalore when he did. As for the Clara timeline thing... well... you might have a point there. This may need further discussion. 18.104.22.168talk to me 22:04, January 17, 2018 (UTC)
- It was specifically stated that the Doctor died in battle on Trenzalore amongst millions. He wouldn't just be buried there after he eventually dies, that makes no sense. Aside from an out-of-universe explanation by the writer, there's nothing at all in the show to suggest that this timeline still exists aside from Clara's role in the Doctor's life from jumping in but we are never given an explanation for that either. After the Doctor regenerates, everyone in the show treats this as over and done with, an altered possible future.--WarGrowlmon18 ☎ 22:08, January 17, 2018 (UTC)
- After rereading the transcript, it seems I was relying too much on the Doctor's statements that "You can't change history if you're part of it" (matching what we see in Angels Take Manhattan and, as you mentioned, Before the Flood) and "I can't", when he also says "I could have once, when there were Time Lords. Not any more," foreshadowing Clara's request to the Time Lords: "Help him change the future." I think it's still worth a mention that the author intended for the Doctor's grave / timeline scar to still exist on Trenzalore, and I'm definitely leaving that in the "Behind the scenes", but you've convinced me. Thanks for the reply! :) – N8 ☎ 13:24, January 18, 2018 (UTC)
- The behind the scenes part is fine. The Doctor's comment was in regards to the Silence trying to stop him from getting to Trenzalore but instead causing him to get there with their actions. They blew up the TARDIS to try to kill him but caused the cracks in the process with the cracks being what broadcast the message. They engineered River to kill him, but he never would've gotten there if she hadn't been there for him. That was all an ontological paradox, that's what he meant by that. This is different. What he meant about the Time Lords was that they could've saved him like they did if they were still around because he knew he was dying either way at that point and he himself had no way to stop it even without the Daleks demanding his presence.--WarGrowlmon18 ☎ 22:16, January 18, 2018 (UTC)