Talk:Journey's End (TV story)

Grammar, spelling, punctuation
Instead of re-writing each others' edits in the in the discontinuity/errors section attempting to explain away valid questions, we should focus on all the grammar and spelling errors in this page. No offense, but some of this article seems to read like you all didn't graduate middle school. Sorry to sound like a grammar nazi, but I had to change "conscience" to "consciousness" and "there" to "their" and within seconds of refreshing I see more edits to the error section, ironically, with obvious errors in style/grammar/POV. I'm not saying my writing is impeccable either. All I'm saying is please proofread your edits and fix these errors before you go on expanding on the error section. -Anon

Speculation
Ninth Doctor? How do we know Eccleston (sp) will be in this? Just wondering...
 * We don't. It's just people speculating with fan-wank.  After all, anyone can edit this. Jack's the man - 13:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Does any one know if Harriet Jones is actually returning or is it just a wild stab in the dark. Bhillybillybob 19:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A CBBC article stated that Harriet Jones was announced as returning. Jack's the man - 11:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

"The Medusa Cascade unleashes The master along with the original series cybermen and the Juddon are killed trying to fight them.The pale women in the next time trailer is a prisoner they were transporting. "

The next time trailer is for The Stolen Earth, not Journey's End. The Master cannot exist twice, and why would the Mondasian Cybermen be there either?

For this and Stolen Earth shouldn's Judoon be removed from enemies or whatever the category is? We don't know if they are enemies yet, but we could assume from trailers that they are allies or neutral, so should it be removed?--Sir Koji 03:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hyncharas 19:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible that when we saw The Master before in Season 3 and he recognised the Tenth Doctor, it was because (for him) the Medusa Cascade had already happened? In Last of the Time Lords when Saxon talks about it, he mentions its closure as a past event, but the story has never appeared in the fiction until now...

It might be that the version of The Master we saw was from a point in The Doctor's future, just like River Song is. After all, he is a Time Lord himself.

there may me more time lords now (i've seen enough sci-fi to know if you swat a bug in the past it completely changed the future) so if one of the most powerful people in the time war is saved from death imagine the affect on the time line

Companions
So who is definitely considered a companion in this episode? I'm confused. -- 69.42.6.55 16:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just now I think we should leave it as those who have been companions before. Just because someone is appearing doesn't make them a companion.  Come to that just because an old companion is returning it doesn't mean they will be a companion again. Jack's the man - 19:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Death
A female companion dies? If I wrote this episode, I would have it be Gwen Cooper. Although when the doctor finds her lifeless body he realizes the resemblence to Gwenith from The Unquiet Dead. Re then retrieves Gwenith's mind from the cardif rift and places it in Gwen. Then we get an awesome third season of torchwood with an anacronistic police officer from 1816.

No.


 * WRONG!!!! She was never a companion in the first place. -- 69.42.6.55 01:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Regeneration
At the end of Stolen Earth, we see the doctor regenerating. Is the cast on this page known (or presumed), and if so, is it possible to stop a regeneration halfway through - Maester Napoleon 19:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the cast list from Radio Times, plus the BBC Press Office Synopsis - of course they could have been done to avoid giving it away. Tennant has been seen filming the Christmas Special, has confirmed himself for next years specials and is named as The Doctor for the Proms Special. It probably will be stopped - or he will regenerate to the same body - remember that Jenny (cloned from The Doctor) changed into the same body. Jack's the man - 19:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok i've got theroy its a bit out there hence why i haven't put this in the rumor section, now try and keep up, so the doctor dose infact regenerate into a new body John Simm most likely as he said he did about two weeks of filming, however the regeneration trigers the regeneration of the doctors hand within the jar the hand fully forms into the David Tenent Doctor, so now theres two doctor the new one who is the regeneration of the old one and the david tenent one created at the same time from the doctors hand (this would also explain the close up of the hand in Stolen earth) then at the conclusion of the story the newly regenerated doctor who is infact the original sacrifices him self whilst the david tennant doctor carries on with donna which would explain why he is filming the christmas special. Again this is pure speculation but i feel iv'e hit the nail on the head.User:Captain-One

I can`t see the master sacrificing himself can you?Drwhofan08 20:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

not the Master but the actor who played the master john simm, the master could of inprinted his own physical apperance into the doctor when he tampered with his DNA making him older, kind of way of living on through his ach enemy. User:Captain-One

When did John Simm say he'd spent 2 weeks filming??? Have you got a link or something? 82.1.68.117 15:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

it was during the newyears eve party on bbc 1 or 2 i remember John Simm and David tennant being questioned about season four, but i think i might be able to find a link just give me some time. User:Captain-One

If anyone has a copy of hootenanny 07 could they give me a link User:Cptain-One

Shouldn`t we all remember that from the beginning there has been nothing but speculation on the topic of David Tennant`s "leaving" David himself has said on many occasions on Dr Who confidential that he likes nothing better than to tease the press about his staying or going. Captain one hasn`t come up with any links yet about John Sim. Perhaps we should all have a chorus of "I can`t decide" Drwhofan08 22:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I`m fed up of people saying they`ve seen new doctors, old doctors and twin doctors on youtube. Youtube is fan work - people making up their own videos to make other people believe them. I`m waiting until the episode has been broadcast before I even look at the journeys end page again. People should make up their own minds if the videos on youtube are genuine or not. If people want to the believe them and the outcome becomes obvious one way or the other some people will be glad there`s a new doctor and others vowing never to watch it anymore. I will be one of the latter.Drwhofan08 21:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I bet there were a lot of red faces after the broadcast, no-one could really have predicted about the regeneration process although some were pretty near. At least Rose sort-of got her man in the end and it`s to be hoped they live happily ever after. As for all the "doubters" who were so keen to get rid of David Tennant - Shame on you, perhaps you should have waited to see what happened. Drwhofan08 12:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Caan's statments
Dalek Caan's insane ranting can be seen as a kind of prediction. As Davros said, he speaks only the truth. Here is what he says.

"He is coming. The three-fold man. How he dances in the lonely places. Oh, creator of us all. The Doctor is coming.

And then when Dervos contacts the Doctor:

"I flew into the wildfire. I danced and died a thousand times. Death is coming. I can see it, everlasting death for the most faithful companion."
 * Here is a thought...who is a more faithful companion to The Doctor then The Doctor himself?

Davros could be the most faithfull companion, he's been in the series for a long time after all.

A few possible alternatives: Btw: the prophecy is used by the BBC as a bad omen, so I guess it would mean something dreadful or it would be a bit tacky. But you never know. Can't see the previews though. Dumb geo-blocking. Gomeztoo 08:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)*(
 * 1) The Doctor's most faithful companion is his loneliness. Caan's prediction could mean the return of the Time lords (since he meddled with the time war).
 * 2) Caan says: 'I ... died a thosuand times', and then continues on about death for 'the most faithful companion'. So he could speak of himself, as the most faithful companion - not of the Doct or but of Davros.
 * this Could be depressing but is his most faith full companion is the TARDIS TheHoBo 23:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Prince Philip?
Ok, what's with the giant sized photo of Prince Philip and all of the mentions of Davros working for him? Surely it must be vandalism...70.59.200.105 08:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It is Jack's the man - 12:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Can someone please get rid of it? -- 69.42.6.55 16:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The person who was doing it got banned - so it should be fine now. Jack's the man - 20:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Unforntunately, that guy is back under another anomonous user, this page should be blocked from further edits because that guy just tries my patience. Matthew R Dunn 14:57, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Almost each time I see it the user's IP will be blocked (if I miss an anonymous user who's vandalising, chuck a message on my talk page and I'll get on it). --Tangerineduel 15:00, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I looked a few minutes ago and there was a BIG icture of Prince Philip saying "All hail Prince Phillip" but by the time I logged on and went back it had goneDrwhofan08 20:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That is because some of the users (me included) watch this page like a hawk and we act very quickly when someone keeps vandalising it. Matthew R Dunn 21:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi just to say, that I'm not the 'vandaliser', I'm trying to re edit it back. (I know it keeps saying im editing it)


 * I've reverted it again but some traces of the vandalism still remains. I don't want to completely revert the article as I may risk deleting some valid information along with it. Cider 21:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I edited it all out and it looks ok. This has been going on long enough and must be spoiling people`s enjoyment of the speculation surrounding the final episode. Can you make it so that each user who contributes is forced to sign their name? I wouldn`t mind but at the moment everyone is remaining anonymous.Drwhofan08 22:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Ban 91.104.56.236


 * People have really got to post their names >_> 156.34.183.29 13:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Joshua

Red Dalek

 * Why no talk about what's in the Red Dalek ? 81.157.179.163 01:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm speculating that the red Dalek will be the one that survives this whole thing...you always need a DalekTweedle dee 16:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The Red Dalek got destroyed by Captain Jack. ThePolarity 13:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Gotta love irony, :D 156.34.183.29 13:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Joshua

Mickey stayed but Rose couldn't?
A plot hole-how come Mickey could stay on that earth and Rose couldn't?


 * I think it was because the Doctor wanted to get Rose and the other Doctor together, so he was better doing it in the parallel universe. There was also Peter, who had stayed in that universe.


 * And Jackie. They are very close to each other. Also, when we're younger, it's important to leave home and parents behind, but when we're older and settling down, having family near can be very important. Ileanadu 03:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The other universe needed Rose; and Rose needed a Doctor, hence they stayed. Mickey; well he had nothing left back there. Don't complain, we might get him on torchwood!156.34.183.29 13:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Joshua

Caan
Is it possible for Caan to use an emergancy temporal shift despite not having a top half? Why didn't he die with the rest of the Daleks? and why did the Doctor offer to save Davros but not Caan even though Caan turned out to be a good guy (sort of)? 82.1.68.117 21:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Caan was way to insane for anything, methinks. As for the Doctor not offering to save him; it's probably because he was too insane and broke a very important rule; If the doctor can't go back to the Time War, you can't.156.34.183.29 13:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Joshua

In a way, Caan exterminated the Daleks along with the Blue Suit Tenth Doctor, making him a) too much of a Dalek, even for Daleks and Davros himself, b) the first Dalek to break a Time Lock, an ability too dangerous for the rest of the Daleks to gain, c) a seer whose predictions are all true and who can manipulate timelines, d) a constant reminder of his Blue Suit version's genocide of the Daleks and d) bonkers. Caan was too much of a wildcard, and I believe he commited suicide as part of the extermination of the Daleks; his armor probably didn't work, he was just being kept around for his prophecies, but (apparently) not a part of the Dalek power structure (The Supreme Dalek did call him The Abomination).  This is why he needed the Doctors/Donna to do the actual leg- (or rather handi-) work of defeating the Daleks themselves while he cackled maniacally.  I believe Caan saw himself as part of the problem and figured the destruction of The Crucible would take care of him. Perhaps the Doctor saw no flaws in his logic. RadiusRS 4:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Did it seem to anyone else that Caan seemed very relaxed when the Crucible was exploding? It's pretty much a given that he foresaw his own death and accepted it. Who knows though. Davros might have escaped and taken Caan with him. -- 69.42.6.55 01:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

the reason that Caan did not explode like the other Daleks is because the explosions seamed to originate from there upper half, which Caan lacked there probably some type of power relay up there which is what the clone doctor over loaded

Six consoles
I just love the image of six stuffy old time lords with their ridiculous robes standing earnestly around a console, each manipulating some of the controls in careful synchronicity. The Tardis would presumably travel without a single bump or wobble and arrive just at the right time and place with exactly the right disguise. And it wouldn't be fun at all. 82.41.224.214 22:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Daleks speaking German
Just a note: "exterminieren" is an actual German word, just like the noun "Extermination". According to the Duden, which is pretty much the ultimate German dictionary, "Extermination" is synonymous with "eviction", "expulsion" and "banishment". It's a rather archaic form, you won't hear it in daily life. The Daleks in the German dub of the first season of the new series usually scream "Eleminieren!" (eliminate!). Haven't seen the dub of the season 2 finale yet (still a few weeks away), but I doubt they'll change much there. Takekaze 08:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I must say, I really enjoyed when they used the word Exterminieren, real-word or not. It brought comic relief to the episode. 156.34.183.29 13:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Joshua


 * But wouldn't Martha hear it as English since the Tardis translates automatically to and from any language? BritBoy 03:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The TARDIS is on the Crucible, and she's in Germany. I daresay she's out of proximity. =/


 * Agreed and after spending a few years learning german it was really funny to see German Daleks Dark Lord Xander 05:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It could be because she has not been on TARDIS the in awhile or it is because she knew german the TARDIS thought it was superfluous

Messed Up
Sorry.. I'm new here and I've added a picture of the TARDIS pulling the Earth, but I think I may of messed up the article. Can someone please put it right. Sorry. ThePolarity 13:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the article; good job on the photograph!156.34.183.29 13:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Joshua

New Category
Should there be a category for all those shown his 'died for the Doctor' flashbacks? --Lizzie Harrison 14:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Vandal
The user 86.131.225.37 has been vandalising a number of pages. Check his activity list to see this. Could somebody please block him? I don't know how. Thanks.

Discontinuity, Plot Holes, Errors
In reference to..


 * With her demise Harriet Jones' three successive terms as Prime Minister can now no longer happen creating a paradox, especially if the doctor knew from a visit to the future that it was supposed to happen. Of course the prophecy could have refered to a different Harriet Jones.Her stint in office could also have been an example of time being in flux, and not a fixed event. How could the doctor have remembered it happening when it didn't?

in DW: The_Parting_of_the_Ways rose (Bad Wolf) says **something along the lines of** "I see the past, the present, and all possible futures" to which the doctor replys "Thats what I see" Therefore he recalled one of the possible futures

or more simply

at the time he remembered it, that was what the future would have been. 203.13.128.101 08:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Craig

Story note removed
I have removed the following, which should be sourced as it could be something that someone just made up for all we know: "*In the original script, the Doctor gave Rose's Doctor a small piece of 'coral' from the TARDIS so that he could create his own Time/Space machine from it." If there's a reference to this in the podcast or a magazine article or whatever, then this should be cited. 23skidoo 14:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Discontinuity notes
As the article stands, there are a number of discontinuity notes and errors which are so badly worded that they make little sense. I'm pulling them from the article to this section so as to preserve them, in case anyone wants to give them a second try.


 * How could the Doctor have remembered it happening, when it didn't? He remembered it from before it was changed
 * Relative pronoun "it" is never defined. What is "it"?
 * The Earth was never brought back in time the one second that Davros had rushed it forward to keep it out of sync with the rest of the universe. Therefore it shouldn't be moved back with the moon or the solar system, as the Earth is still ahead in time. History would also be changed as humans from Earth would never be able to intereact with any other alien species. Seeing as this problem would also occur for the other 26 planets, one can assume that the Doctor put every planet back into sync with their original time periods when he removed them from the Medusa Cascade. Also, it was the Medusa Cascade that was out of sync, not the planets.
 * No idea why this is an "error". There's no error here.  Moving the planets back into place obviously means correcting the one-second-gap-problem.  Is the original editor intending to say something like, "The script never explicitly addresses how the Doctors and Donna got the planets back into temporal synch with the rest of the universe"?  If so, that's a negligible instance of "discontinuity".  Maybe it just needs to be reworded, cause on the face of it, I just don't see the point that's trying to be made.
 * When Davros brings up the screen to view the testing, the image shows the human test subjects just entering. On TV, not all events are straight after each other. Most events are at the same time as another, but for obvious reasons, they are placed next to each other.
 * Really, seriously, not an error. Not even slightly an error.  This section shouldn't be for things that are, as the original editor mentioned, "obvious".
 * When the Doctor sends every planet back to when and where it was taken, doesn't this negate Partners in Crime, Fires of Pompeii, and the conversation about Poosh in Midnight since those events were caused by lost planets? No because he didn't send them back in time. he just sent them back to the right place in space. But the Lost Moon of Poosh is from the future, so putting it back in its proper place but without the proper time gives you the mother of all paradoxes; he might have sent it in time. In which case the paradox is in Midnight, because it's been gone a long time in that episode. If he sent it back to where it came from, that couldn't happen.  Maybe the Doctor sent the Moon forward in time where it reapears AFTER the events in the episode in question so as to not create a paradox.
 * I suspect this one just needs a bit more work. THe meaning of the original statement is vague, much less the "solution" to the problem given in italics.
 * In the flashbacks of people who risked their lives for the Doctor, how come it is only for the Tenth and doesn't include Peri, Adric, Sara Kingdom, Katarina, Grace Halloway or Chang Lee, who risked their lives to save their respective doctors?
 * Seriously? You were expecting edited footage from a mostly non-existent black and white serial in a 2008 episode of Doctor Who?  You really think it's a continuity error that Katarina and Sara Kingdom aren't there?

 Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  08:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I want to take a stab at rewording the two statements about the Moon and the planets being put back where they belong into a workable response. Feel free to prune or edit: When the the Planets were returned to their proper places, this was in Time as well as Space. The Doctor has demonstrated on various occasions an ability to sense when a Timeline has been tampered with, when something is not as it should be. By resolving the crises, the Doctor restores the ways things should be. And while past events DID occur (such as the Pyrovilleans being involved in Vesuvius' eruption) Time was rewritten around these events (for example, if those Pyrovilleans had gone back to Pyrovillea, they would have found the Planet right where it should be, they just didn't see any reason to check. The Lost Moon of Poosh being from the Future means it's history can still be rewritten, though not enough to prevent the events of Midnight. (it might have kept the "Lost" moniker after it returned), etc.) Since the planet-nappings were partly responsible for breaking down the barriers between realities allowing Rose, Mickey, and Jackie through, once they were restored, the holes between dimensions healed, as did the timelines created by their abductions. This means the Earth and Moon's normal relationship was restored seconds after it disappeared (most of the planets had been abducted from the Present).

It's a little long but could be worked into a more concise answer if anyone else wants to try.


 * What's the discontinuity, though?  Where's the error/problem? Neither the original attempt or this one clearly states what the problem is.  Limit yourself to one sentence and try again, please.
 * However, a couple of things you say in this rewrite concern me.
 * "The Doctor has demonstrated on various occasions an ability to sense when a Timeline has been tampered with, when something is not as it should be. By resolving the crises, the Doctor restores the way things should be."
 * Not quite. He knows when things are fixed, and when they're in flux. He knows what he can't change and what he can.  Saying the Doctor restores things to how they should have been is quite a dangerous statement to make about him.  He tries to correct the problems he can.   But his actions might have quite unintended effects.  He left "The Long Game" thinking that all was right with the world, but in the end his tampering with things only allowed the Daleks to move in to control the Earth of 200,100.  Ultimately the Ninth Doctor died because of the changes he made to the timeline in "Long Game".   The First Doctor's cure of the common cold in The Ark, completely changed the course of history for those humans as well.  And the Fourth Doctor unexpectedly came to be viewed as a god, and, in a sense, the creator of the Tesh and the Sevateem in Face of Evil.   He might well understand the "fixed points" of history, but he doesn't seem to have the ability to unerringly predict the consequences of his meddling.  The Time Lords had a point in trying him in "The War Games".  He's about as responsible a Time Lord as you're going to get working without the Matrix, but he sees what should, could and must never be.   Just because the planets are back to their original location, doesn't mean that timelines swirling around those planets are restored.  The people of Earth know they've been moved there and moved back.   Harriet Jones is still dead.  Those people who got killed testing the reality bomb are dead.  Various members of UNIT are dead.  Indeed, that place is probably in shambles.  Martha and Mickey will probably join Jack at Torchwood 3 because of this event.  People possibly died during the rocky trip back.  (God only knows what kinda havoc that amount of rocking would have had in hospitals, especially if any surgeries were underway at the time.)    The mere fact that the event happened, and wasn't reverted has changed things from what would've happened without Dalek Caan.
 * "This means the Earth and Moon's normal relationship was restored seconds after it disappeared".
 * Not sure if I buy this. The rest of the planets?  Sure they could easily have gotten zapped right back to a second after they were taken. Thank you, Magnetron!   But Earth wasn't; It was pulled through quite normal space across the universe.  And there's no indication whatsoever that they entered the Time-Space Vortex at any point.  They were gone from the Solar system for whatever length of time the story took, plus however long the visually compressed "trip home" was.   It's at a minimum a few hours, but more likely something like a day.    Czech Out   ☎ | ✍  19:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The list continues:
 * When Mickey, Rose and Martha pushed the Daleks away, why did they not get burnt? We can assume Donna disabled the heat-field around the Daleks. Then again, how did any of them know that? Alternatively, several times in The Stolen Earth/ Journey's End, bullets have been seen bouncing off the Daleks' casings, rather than being melted. it can therefore be assumed that perhaps these Daleks don't have forcefields: they may have been developed by the Daleks during the Time War, after Davros left it, and he never thought to include one in his new Daleks.
 * Really don't understand this one. Why didn't they get burnt?  Why would they?  People have been pushing around Daleks since The Daleks.  I'm hard-pressed to think of a single original series Dalek episode where someone doesn't touch a Dalek.    And if Rose got burnt by touching the Dalek in Dalek, Billie Piper really screwed up the reaction.  Touching a Dalek doesn't burn ya.  Removed.

 Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  19:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

What were they saying in German?
Does anyone have a translation of the German Dialogue?


 * Go to BBC Episode Guide - Journey's End Fact File scroll down to the heading German Lesson. --Tangerineduel 14:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

naked image XD
Is there an image of David Tennent when he was showm nude :-P 92.3.124.221 16:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Yes go to Drwhofan08 22:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Story notes
Along the same lines as the "Discontinuity notes" section, above, here are some things I've removed from the article in the hopes that either they stay out, or they're given greater amplification.


 * According to Doctor Who Magazine this is the biggest finale of Doctor Who ever.
 * What does that mean? I'm loathe to remove it, because there's apparently a source, but how is it the biggest?  What's big about it?  Is this just a cover blurb?  What issue of DWM are we talking about?
 * The Daleks tried to move the Earth before, during the events of The Dalek Invasion Of Earth.
 * Best left to The Stolen Earth article, because that's really where the reference to DIOE really is.


 * The Doctor and Mickey perform a "fist bump" in lieu of a handshake when Mickey departs; although the scene was filmed long prior, by the time the episode aired the "fist bump" had become a recognized signature of US presidential candidate Barack Obama. The Doctor and Mickey had previously used this greeting in Doomsday.
 * I left this in, but changed it significantly. I mean, really.  You're seriously gonna try to fit a reference to Barack Obama into a Doctor Who story on the basis of a completely common, used-by-everybody-under-the-age-of-ancient  "fist bump"?  Please.  Why not just say that the Doctor's imprisonment by Davros is reminiscent of John McCain's time as a POW?  The most that can be said is that it's consistent with Doomsday.  So that's all it says now.

 Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  22:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As the one who added this, I need to reply. You completely misunderstood my reasoning. This episode was filmed long before Obama became the heir presumptive, so no I wasn't trying to make that point. I was pointing out a cultural coincidence. When this episode airs in the US in 2 weeks I guarantee that people there will make this connection, because the fist bump has become Obama's trademark, just as peanuts were Carter's and jellybeans were Reagan's. Neither of them invented those either (well, maybe Reagan was there when they invented jellybeans... ;) ). 23skidoo 04:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think I did misunderstand you. I know you're not saying there's a causal relationship.  I'm saying there's no relationship whatsover.  I would think an American audience would be the last audience to relate this thing to Obama, Because anyone under the age of 40 knows that Obama didn't "invent" the fist bump.  It's not "his" gesture to trademark.  News coverage of the supposed "Obama  fist bump"  has messed with your mind, making you believe it somehow belongs to Obama.   A fist bump is as ordinary as a handshake here these days, even if the guys at FOX news don't won't to admit it.  Seriously, everyone who's younger than a baby boomer knows it's not a pop cultural phenomenon associated with a single person, but just an ordinary part of  everyday culture.     It's just what people do.  Just check out baseball or basketball coverage from the 1970s onward and you'll see it in literally every game.  Someone hits a free throw, they get fist bumps from their teammates on the line.   Guy hits a home run, he comes back into the dugout and is offered a congratulatory gesture by everyone therem and at least one of those guys is gonna give the "home-runner" a fist bump.  Like clockwork.   Hell, I fist bump every day of my life.  If I've got something in my hands or they're dirty and a friend walks by, the fist bump is the only way to go.  For the Doctor and Mickey to do it has nothing whatever to do with with Obama.  Nothing.  It's not even coincidental, because, well, it doesn't coincide with the Obama usage.  It's a throwback to Doomsday, whose airing predated the start of the Obama campaign by 9 months.  Filming must've come well over a year before Obama even announced.    And beyond all that, you got the question of what it actually was.  Is it a fist bump?  Not really.  it's more of a fist pound or a dap.  But that's a whole 'notther kettle of fish.   Czech Out   ☎ | ✍  09:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You may also find this New York Times article, written almost seven years ago, instructive as to the timing and ubiquity of the gesture in American culture.  Czech Out   ☎ | ✍  19:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

emergency temporal shift
davros does know about emergency temporal shift. when asked how dalek caan saved davros davros replies emergency temporal shiftHugarh 16:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Discontinuity Section
Something really has to be done about this section as it is just out of control --Dark Lord Xander 10:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've trimmed the explanations some to the essentials. Jack's the man - 12:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Good however i think the Section should be alot smaller than it is Dark Lord Xander 03:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * A Good way to cut this section back is to remove statements that are incorrect rather than writing in italics that they are incorrect --Dark Lord Xander 07:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

An episode like this is bound to attract some pretty intensive discussion and postings. Expect more when it airs on Sci-Fi in a couple of weeks and again when the Australians and Canadians see it in a few months. Best thing to suggest is simply keep tabs on it, remove obvious errors (for example, I removed one that attempted to compare Donna's mindwipe with that of Zoe and Jamie, which doesn't work because they were also moved back in time, an option not possible with Donna; plus the jury is out with regards to Jamie thanks to Season 6B anyway). It's amazing how some folks (not just here, but in other forums) have missed a few obvious points. Such as the fact Osterhagen 1 is in Germany because, well, Osterhagen is a German name, so it's logical. The danger with a section like this, of course, is that an episode as controversial as this one (seriously, has there ever been a Doctor Who episode loved and hated by so many people at the same time?) is bound to attract bashers and gushers who either want to lambaste every last frame as being abominations, or who want to sugarcoat everything and not acknowledge occasional plot issues. The trick here is how to achieve balance. I think we can't expect to find balance right now, only 2 weeks or so after the episode aired in the UK and before whole new sets of viewers get to see it elsewhere. I don't expect a balance to be struck here until early 2009 by which time everyone interested will have either seen it on TV or DVD and attention will have shifted to the Christmas special. 23skidoo 04:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Growth & Maturity
Another character who seems to grow somewhat is Donna's mom, Sylvia Noble. Three episodes ago, although much earlier in time, Sylvia is basically telling her daughter she is useless. Sylvia even disparages Donna in her absence. In this episode Mrs. Noble starts out denying that her daughter is doing anything like what the grandfather describes. But at the end, she actually stands up for her daughter. The doctor then instructs Sylvia to tell her daughter how she feels. Anyone else think she's another character showing growth in this episode? Ileanadu 03:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Different series links
I don't think we should have the links to different series - the infobox should be for thing in one particular series. Otherwise, we would end up putting audios and books as well - and probably progressions for different doctors in mutli-doctor stories. This would become needlessly complicated - so should be kept simple and in one particular series. We can link to SJA and Torchwood articles elsewhere to not progression outside the infobox. Jack's the man - 18:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The storylines continue directly in many cases, so therefore there has to be links. It's one universe. Otherwise we may as well disqualify the mini-episodes too. Only televised and BBC Radio productions need to be recognized -- so yes we should include a link to Lost Souls either here or in The Stolen Earth (wherever it fits into the chronology) but not a novel or comic strip. It's quite simple, really. 23skidoo 01:14, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There are two options to go with for this as I see it (either way they all are part of the same universe). We can either place the various links within the infobox, which does suggest a placement for everything, and the infobox can accommodate all the various elements like that.
 * The alternative is to go with what has been in place for the Missing and Past Doctor Adventures, and the Big Finish Audio Dramas, which is the placement is arranged under a heading within the article as Timeline, that was it can all be broken down as so:

For Doctor Who

 * Journey's End occurs after: DW: The Stolen Earth
 * Journey's End occurs before: DW: Music of the Spheres

For Torchwood

 * Journey's End occurs after: TW: Exit Wounds
 * Journey's End occurs before: TW: Lost Souls

For The Sarah Jane Adventures

 * Journey's End occurs after: SJA: The Lost Boy
 * Journey's End occurs before: SJA: The Last Sontaran
 * --Tangerineduel 13:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Well If it was just the TV stories then it would be less confusing - although I do still think it would be simpler to do it with the form above. We'd also have to put similar things in for multi Doctor specials as to what story procedes that for the different companions and Doctors (which is done quite well in text on The Five Doctors). Jack's the man - 14:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Just a little question about Lost Souls. I haven't heard this so am not sure - but the wikipedia entry makes it read like it takes place before this story (Torchwood have not seen Martha since the burial of Tosh and Owen). Jack's the man - 19:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Frame-by-frame Analysis
"After the hand grows into a new doctor Donna notes that the clone doctor is naked. However careful frame by frame analysis of the scene shows that he (the actor) is actually wearing shorts." Who really did a frame by frame analysis to see if the Doctor was Nude or not. I think thats maybe a little sick TARDY the TARDIS 07:32, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, you would be surprised by the fans out there...  Trak Nar  Ramble on 07:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

It's like Jack told the robot hosts in The Parting of the Ways when he was naked and on television. "Your ratings just went up."

I will say, Tardy, that it's a bit sexist for you to say that - I doubt you'd make the same comment if someone had done a frame by frame to see if Billie Piper/Rose was naked or not. I do, however, think that you did *NOT* intend it that way, so it's not really a big deal.--TheOmnius 05:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Listing the Canadian edits
Someone else will need to do this as I refused to watch it, but I think it might be interesting to list the major edits made by the CBC in cutting the episode down from 65 minutes to 44 minutes or so to fit the 60 minutes (with commercials) time slot it aired in tonight. Normally I wouldn't see listing circumstantial edits as being worthwhile, but this was such a major cut (21 minutes is the same length as an average half-hour program before commercials in the US and Canada) that I think it's worth noting the butchery this episode went through. As I say, though, I refused to watch it in this form (I have the DVDs already) so maybe another Canadian contributor can fill the blanks here. 23skidoo 05:05, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * DWIN actually posted a list of the edits -- some of which are awful -- so I'll go ahead and add a few highlights and a link to the full list. 23skidoo 15:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The list appears to have been slightly edited and is now marked as being incomplete (I don't recall seeing that before; it might have said it all along). Does anyone know if a complete list of edits exists anywhere? 23skidoo 00:56, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Donna's Ring
Under the rumors section, it says:


 * 1)  Concerning Donna's ring, at the end of the season 4 finale, when the Doctor says good-bye to her it glimmers briefly into the camera. Some fans theorise that the ring is a possible Chamelon Arch containing Donna's memories of her time with the Doctor. It has also been suggested that the ring resembles a ring worn by The Master in a previous episode. Others theorise that the ring is just large, black, and very shiny. But this cannot be so as Donna was not wearing it towards the end of Journey's End before her mind was wiped and why would the Doctor put a ring on Donna anyway?

However, Donna is clearly wearing this ring throughout The Stolen Earth and Journey's End. During her time at the Shadow Proclamation the ring can be seen several times quite clearly in close-ups. The ring is further visible several times later throughout the two episodes.

Personally, I do like to think that Donna was Chameleon Arched, and all we saw was the Doctor make her fall asleep to spare her the pain and give him enough time to properly wipe her mind. After all, if she had a fob watch or anything else storing her memories and half-Time Lady status, it would have a perception filter on it, and Donna would hardly pay enough attention to it to show it to us in her brief appearances after the Doctor takes her mind - even including the brief deleted scene.

As this is a theory and put in the rumors section, I hesitate to delete it, especially since it does explain more than one view, and all that's disproved is the ring's status as a Chameleon Arch item - not the use of the Arch itself.--TheOmnius 05:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless it can be shown that the "rumour" is just something someone made up and stuck in the section, it shouldn't be removed. If it has been disproven, or can be disproven through on-screen evidence, this can be noted in italics after the main rumour itself. 23skidoo 00:58, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Cut away scenes
I don't think that Donna's glimpse of remembrance is a possibility, so it's good the scene was cut from final editing. The Doctor said very clear that any remembering would lead to Donna's death. It should state that this scene cannot fit into continuity.