Howling:Water References

It has come to my attention through re-watching the new series of Doctor Who that there are a number of references, particularly in the names of companions, to bodies of water. They are as follows;


 * River Song


 * Jackson Lake


 * Adelaide Brooke


 * Amy Pond

What these names mean is, as of yet, a mystery to me, though the connection to "The Waters of Mars" may be relevant, as two people who were supposed to die on Mars no longer did.


 * Please sign your posts! Type "~" four times to do this. But this is an interesting pattern. I think you may be on to something. River Song, of course, showed up in the Moffat-penned Silence in the Library. Monkey with a Gun 06:17, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Steven Moffat said it was a conicidence when asked about the water-theme. Delton Menace 07:51, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure there's some Freudian explanation for why his subconscious keeps coming up with water-related names....

Also, now that everyone's pointed it out to him repeatedly, he might decide to make it mean something. But I expect that if he does deal with it at all, it'll only be as a joke--maybe River Song or Amy Pond will make a joke about the Doctor's Freudian obsession with water names, ask him if he's a big Veronica Lake fan, say "Let's go back to the 1980s and meet Billy Ocean," etc. --99.37.227.199 09:34, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

It might have started as a coincidence, but I think that if it keeps coming now that he's aware, it's going to mean something. (If I see someone coming up with a name like del Rio or Bay or Marsh, I'm going to keep an eye on them.) (Unsigned)

Better watch out for Haff, too. A haff is a variety of lagoon and, as it's not a well known word, might be used to try to slip one past us. 2.96.18.149 18:01, June 1, 2011 (UTC)

I can't believe it's a coincidence. "The only water in the forest is the river" and the silly scene about the duck pond in Ledworth. (Although I keep waiting for "duck, Pond!" to almost get someone killed because Amy or Rory doesn't realize it actually means "Amelia, get your head down!" Grooaaaan.) And I think ... I hope ... I seriously freaking need to believe ... that there is SOME connection, even if it's something red-herring-ish, like River idolizing Amy, and choosing 'River Song' as an alias, in honor of Melody.

Not sure if this is another red herring, but The Waters of Mars was a huge milestone in the Doctor's ongoing god complex storyline, and now we're leading up to a Season VI-2 episode by that name. Also note that in Curse of the Black Spot, the Doctor's first theory was that the water was the key... and had to admit that he was wrong about it, repeatedly. Agonaga 19:12, June 1, 2011 (UTC)

The "Duck, Pond!" idea occurred to me, too. Something along those lines was actually used in (I think) Silver Nemesis. The Doctor said, "Duck!" and Ace ducked. "No! Duck," said the Doctor, pointing to a waterfowl waddling beside the TARDIS. 89.240.247.98 12:40, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

Agonaga, I think you should have mentioned that the title of 6.7, A Good Man Goes to War looks like a gloss on Bishop Heber's hymn The Son of God Goes Forth to War. Those of you who are not familiar with the piece can find it here on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpeQj_835Ow. It is the hymn sung by Sean Connery & Michael Caine in The Man Who Would Be King. 12:59, June 2, 2011 (UTC) Boblipton 13:00, June 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Blopington, I hadn't ever heard of that hymn before. I couldn't make out the lyrics from the youtube link you sent, so I searched for them in text... and it's interesting. I hope I'll be forgiven, for pasting them here:

"The Son of God goes forth to war, A kingly crown to gain; His blood-red banner streams afar: Who follows in His train? Who best can drink his cup of woe, Triumphant over pain, Who patient bears his cross below, He follows in His train. The martyr first, whose eagle eye Could pierce beyond the grave, Who saw his Master in the sky, And called to Him to save: Like Him, with pardon on his tongue, In midst of mortal pain, He prayed for them that did the wrong: Who follows in his train? A glorious band, the chosen few On whom the Spirit came, Twelve valiant saints, their hope they knew, And mocked the cross and flame. They met the tyrant's brandished steel, The lion's gory mane, They bowed their necks, the death to feel: Who follows in their train? A noble army, men and boys, The matron and the maid, Around the Savior's throne rejoice, In robes of light arrayed. They climbed by strength divine from heaven, Through peril, toil, and pain: O God, to us may grace be given To follow in their train."
 * I noticed a few notes of potential interest to Whovians... the capitolized name of the Master; mention of a Matron and a Maid; the pardoning of the enemy; our first S6 episode had a martyr; and a couple things played well into my own pet theories, such as a crown to be claimed (the Doctor would love to see Gallifrey reborn, and naturally Rassilon would have to be deposed afterward). Many other lyrics here could be twisted to whatever meaning you want, of course. Any case, thanks for the thought, Blop. Agonaga 18:36, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've put further thoughts on this hymn in another thread to avoid derailing this one: see Howling:Son_of_God_Goes_Forth_to_War Agonaga 19:24, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

Getting back on topic, then:

In A Good Man Goes to War, we get the reveal that River Song is Melody Pond, and "the only water in the forest is the river" means that "River Song" was an inaccurate translation of "Pond, Melody" for the people of the Gamma Forest, because the only water in the Gamma Forest is the river.

So, does this tie the whole thing up, or is there more to be revealed? Are Jackson Lake, Adelaide Brooke, etc. just coincidences?

I think the answer is "probably, but that could change". River and Pond were likely a coincidence at first, but the Moff later chose to turn that coincidence into a plot point. It's unlikely that he'll do the same with Lake or Brooke or the Haff, mainly because it's unlikely we'll ever hear about any of them again, but there's no reason he couldn't make it work if he wanted to. --99.8.228.227 03:33, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Just realized a new water reference name: Lorna Bucket. Boblipton 23:15, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

"with Lake or Brooke or the Haff": There hasn't been a "Haff" yet. You're probably thinking of the Hath, the piscine people in The Doctor's Daughter. --78.146.185.239 18:44, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Another water reference name is Professor Celeste Rivers, a recurring character in The Sarah Jane Adventures. And, of course, there's Clyde Langer. --89.242.72.43 15:15, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I doubt that we'll be hearing anything more from any Sarah Jane characters at this point. It is possible, though incredibly unlikely, that we might hear from Clyde in the main series, but we're not going to hear from a character as minor as Celeste Rivers outside of her own show. I think her most recent episode proved to all of us how useless she really is. Maybe now that Esther's dead, Clyde or Rivers will join Torchwood.Icecreamdif talk to me 19:48, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

If Clyde or Rani Chandra were to appear in the main series, it would need to be in an episode set on Earth, unless the Judoon could be persuaded to restore their travelling rights. None of the SJA characters would really fit into Torchwood. Of course, if the writers wanted them to appear, the fact that they didn't fit could be made an important point by generating conflict. Regardless of that, Rivers and Clyde are both water names. Also, if Boblipton can get away with Lorna Bucket as a water reference name, a case could be made for Gwen Cooper being another -- a cooper makes barrels, etc. --89.240.247.219 21:54, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Well then, water does fall out of the 'Sky as rain. Anyway, I was joking when I suggested that they appear on Torchwood. Apart from the fact that they wouldn't really fit in the show (imagine Jack or Rex's reaction to one of Clyde's lame jokes), the two shows aren't really even trying to attract the same audience (except obviously Doctor Who fans). Sarah Jane Adventures was really aimed at kids, and if the characters from that show were to appear on Torchwood, young children would want to watch it. It also doesn't look like Torchwood is going back to the BBC any time soon, and I doubt that Starz would want to confuse viewers by bringing in characters from another spinoff of the paarent show. I would imagine that most American Torchwood viewers who aren't already familiar with Doctor Who and The Sarah Jane Adventures would find the Sarah Jane kids annooying. If they ever were to appear on Doctor Who, then it would be on modern day Earth not because of the Judoon's restriction, but because none of them posess space travel. Anyway, the only plot that would really be interesting enough to bring them back on Doctor Who would be one dealing with Sarah Jane's death, but if they do bring up somehting like that it will probably just be some kind of reference like the Brig's. The other water references probably don't mean anything, and I doubt that we will ever see Jackson Lake, or Adelaide Brooke(who is dead) again. As for Gwen, think how the exchange would work. River Song: Amy, Gwen Cooper is your daughter. Get it, Pond, Cooper. On one planet, which has an extremely limited vocabiulary, anything that holds water, or anyone who makes anything that hold's water, just has the same name.Icecreamdif talk to me 01:47, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Russell T. Davies has said he has one more story (and only one) he could tell about Torchwood and it centres on Gwen, so a further series is at least possible. Bringing characters in from SJA would cause problems (as you point out) and I wasn't suggesting it ought to be done; it would be possible but not at all sensible. The "translation trick" worked once but it wouldn't work a second time, and pond - water - barrel - cooper is a bit too much of a stretch, anyway.

It's off-topic but, if I were planning how to deal with Sarah Jane's death, I'd keep the character alive (but off screen, of course) for a few years, until Sky was old enough not to need another fostermother, then bring some or all of Luke, Sky, Rani and Clyde into an episode of Doctor Who. The dialog could refer back to them having last met the Doctor at Sarah Jane's funeral, a few months earlier, but still finding her absence difficult to adjust to. That would allow tribute to be paid without the danger of mawkishness that would attend trying to show the funeral itself. With the exception of Anjli Mohindra, who's several years older than her character, the ages of the actors would make that difficult/impossible to do without waiting five or six years of real time; an older Rani could appear now, but not the rest and especially not Sky. --89.240.242.28 06:29, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Well, this is starting to get slightly off topic, but it would probably be kind of weird if they brought back the entire cast of the Sarah Jane Adventures a few years after the show ended. I agree that they shouldn't show a funeral for her, mainly because that would be a bit too distracting from Doctor Who. If they had decided to rewrited the ending of Sarah Jane Adventures (which also would have been dumb), and given her an offscreen death in the last episode, then a funeral could have worked, but Sarah Jane hasn't been an important enough part of Doctor Who since the 70s to spend part of an episode doing a funeral for her. The only Sarah Jane characters who have appeared in Doctor Who who have appeared who didn't originate on Doctor Who were Luke and Mr. Smith, so those are the only ones that I can see them bothering to bring back. Still, I wouldn't expect more than a short aknowledgement of her death, like we got or the Brigadier, although the ending thing that they stuck at the end of The Man Who Never Was suggests that they are just pretending that Sarah Jane is still alive "and the story goes on forever." Also, with Torchwood, although RTD may be saying that he only has one more story to tell now, it isn't unlikely that he will change his mind after the next season (if there is one) and will make another season. Does anybody know what the show's ratings were like on StarzIcecreamdif talk to me 17:57, October 29, 2011 (UTC)