Talk:Eleventh Doctor/Archive 3

Too long
Some of the infromation should be sectioned off. There's just too much for "Alone no more". After the Flesh and Stone part, it should part off into another section, don't you think? It would make it easier to keep the readers' attention. (173.167.179.77talk to me 21:35, February 14, 2012 (UTC))

Main image
Currently, there seems to be some dispute over the main image on the page. The current image was the one which is to the right. However, a couple of Users have described it as 'creepy'. I would warmly welcome any other images that people want to upload and use. MM/ Want to talk? 00:05, April 20, 2012 (UTC) - 	I've probably been the most vocal in my objection to that image. Even disregarding the fact that I think the Doctor looks like Gollum from Lord of the Rings there, the picture itself is from a moment when the Doctor is giving Amy a grimacing half-smile as he leaves her behind. Hardly the best representative image. I propose Image 2, or the picture of the Eleventh Doctor that's already used for the main The Doctor article. Memnarc talk to me 00:10, April 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Image 2 is immediately disqualified on grounds that it does not even come close to complying with T:ICC or tardis:guide to images. It's far, far too distant a pic to be the main image for an infobox.  Personally, I think pic 1 is a perfectly representative "tentative" smile from the Doctor.  He does it in a lot of instances, and it's a definite "Matt Smithism". I'm honestly scratchin' my head at your description of it as "Gollumesque".


 * However, if you want to replace, I don't really care, as long as the replacement is an equal closeup, of equal dimensions and clarity. I think, though, you'll be rather hard-pressed to find a closeup that's as well framed or in quite as good natural light. Take a look at the pics of all other Doctors.  The shot has to be a true "hero" closeup moment, where the head fills the frame.


 * Until such time as an alternative is found, however, please leave pic 1 in place. 14:54: Fri 20 Apr 2012
 * Just to clarify, administratively we have in the past sometimes removed an image until the bone of contention is settled. However this was in cases where a whole raft of users had competing ideas on which pic to use, and also when the resulting picture was a "collage" that had to be constructed.  In this case, it seems to be mostly Memnarc's view that the current pic is somehow "Gollumesque" that's driving things.  One person cannot hold a page "hostage" and end up depriving it of its infobox pic, especially on the page of the current star of the show! So we'll hold at file:ElevenHeroCloseup.jpg until Memnarc can provide something of equal quality here on the talk page. 15:05: Fri 20 Apr 2012


 * Although I would argue that Image 2 is just as close up as the Tenth Doctor's current image, I'll digress, as I think Image 3 is better representative of the Eleventh Doctor. While I can't say I recall many instances of the "tentative" smile CzechOut described, the smug grin he displays in Image 3 is very indicative of Matt Smith. Plus, if it's good enough for the main Doctor article, why wouldn't it be good enough for the Eleventh Doctor article? Memnarc talk to me 20:52, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pic1 is a closer closeup. I'm sure you can actually see that.  Look how much of the frame in Pic2 is not Matt Smith. Pic3 is disqualified precisely because it already serves as the infobox image at the Doctor.  There's no need for duplication.  And it's not as closeup nor as bright as Pic1.  Remember, the goal of an infobox pic is to be as big as possible, as bright as possible, and as clear as possible. Pic3 just isn't an improvement on Pic1 in any of these regards.  Keep looking.  21:31: Fri 20 Apr 2012
 * Huh. I actually considered the infobox on The Doctor to be updated to fit the more ICC images on First Doctor, Fourth Doctor, Eighth Doctor and Ninth Doctor, and what'll result on this page. Is it really redundant when it's a composite?


 * But I suppose that's better reserved for the discussion on The Doctor. -- Tybort (talk page) 22:46, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. I didn't want you to think I'm just saying "no" to your search for a new pic because I'm trying to particularly protect that picture.  I don't think the pic needs at all to be changed.  But if you do, let's get the ball really rolling here with a lot of options.  Here's a whole range of pics I'd find acceptable.


 * I would go with either 4 or 6, both are good. So we all agree the range is 4-6? OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 04:48, April 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not to be difficult, but I prefer #11 (no pun intended). It's the brightest and clearest, and you can even see his eye color. Shambala108 talk to me 05:16, April 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * well, that really isn't that important in deciding for the main image. The main problem with 11 is that because he is looking at the camera (and making a weird face) it could be mistaken for a publicity shot. I think six is the best. It's clear enough, with the tightest image possible. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 05:31, April 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, it does not matter if it looks like a publicly photo or not, all that matter is if it's a publicity photo or not. To me, with six we can't see his bow-tie, a crucial part of about the Eleventh Doctor. He is making a 'stupid face' in picture four which you have stated you would like to go with. Picture eleven shows his hair, whereas six does not. MM/ Want to talk? 00:01, April 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * @Memnarc: 12 and 14 just aren't close enough to be conisdered.  13 is very interesting, though.  I can't quite place the episode.  Where'd you get it? I'd happily consider 13 still in the running. (Oh, could you do me a favor, though when uploading pics?  Please put it in the appropriate story category (like category:The God Complex TV story images) and the appropriate subject matter category (like category:Eleventh Doctor images)?  It'll really help us build a truly useable image library!)


 * @OttselSpy25: He's not looking at the camera in #11. He's looking at the massive Time Crack in the wall of the Silurian cave.  It's totally in-universe.  Do you honestly think that I would propose an image which flagrantly violated T:ICC?  Seriously, the difference between a character looking forward, and an actor looking into camera is obvious.  No one would reasonably think that a publicity shot.


 * And you're quite wrong to dismiss Shambala's observation about brightness. Brightness is one of the key issues surrounding infobox pictures.  The fact that we can see his eye color without enlarging the pic is important, and it's one of the reasons I uploaded this one. The vast majority of people looking at our pages never, ever look at infobox pictures at any other size than the one the page gives them.  So brightness is almost everything, because it must be clear.  Indeed, from a technical standpoint the objectively "best" picture — "best" being measured by metrics like resolution — is certainly #8.  But that's probably the least-appropriate infobox pic, because it's just a bit muddy at 250px.


 * As for the supposed "weird face" in #11, I can only say, This is Matt Smith, people.  His face is one of the most interesting and adaptable of all the Doctors.  He's going to look "odd", on some level, in just about every image.  The dude just has a weird face that looks a little bit different in every light, every emotion.  These aren't "unfair" pictures taken of an "off frame".  All of them are the very best of a series of between 5 to 20 taken in very quick succession.  This is just what the guy looks like in these various scenes.


 * @Mini-mitch: I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't think the bow tie is actually necessary. After all, the infobox pic of Pertwee doesn't give us the smoking jacket and frills, the one of Four doesn't give us a scarf, and the one of Davison doesn't give us celery (though it does give us cricket whites, which are clearly more important!).  Of course, I ultimately think that whatever we choose will probably have the top of the bowtie — just because it's so close to the chin — but I don't think it's strictly necessary for an infobox pic of a Doctor to have the trademark costume element.  00:20: Sun 22 Apr 2012
 * A general note: remember to judge these pics solely on the way they appear on this page.  Do not click on them and compare the "blown up" versions.  All that matters to the exercise of picking an infobox image is the way they look in an article. 00:27: Sun 22 Apr 2012


 * The reason I said not to 11 is because due to the fact that it looks like a publicity photo, it may result n edit wars. Also he looks strait into the camera, which is a big no-no for main images. Past the relatively unimportant catchphrase, the Bowie is very unimportant. I would argue that, if six is disliked, then four is the best choice afterwards. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 01:19, April 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * #11 is clearly the best image of the lot. It's brightly lit, perfectly framed, NOT out-of-universe (seriously?) and just the best one. @OttselSpy25 - I have to say that having followed your edits and specifically your picture uploads on this wiki for a while (not everything on the wiki needs to be redone--focus on things that are actually in need of pictures because there are actually *none*, rather than replacing everything with often dodgy images that aren't really well-thought-out or interesting), I have noticed that your sense of what a well-framed, non-awkward (attractive), iconic or noteworthy image is is something I practically never agree with you on. This is one such example. Your preferred image has the hair cut off (Matt looks better with more of his hair in view) and it's simply not epic enough. And he's not even looking towards the camera, he's looking slightly to the left. He's not doing a bugged-out Tom Baker publicity shot with the eyes straight ahead or the Terrifying Pertwee face/Dracula cape (now those are obvious publicity shots). And NOBODY is going to confuse this image for anything but a screencap. It's close to being a hero shot, which are actually really good images for this sort of thing. Most of these images have Matt's face scrunched up or in motion expressions (avoid them!). Screencaps sometimes do have the actor looking straight ahead (which this actually isn't). The fact that #11 also lights up his eyes is another plus. NileQT87 talk to me 13:05, April 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Image 11 does not actually look at the camera, just by looking at the image, it is obvious to tell that it is left. The chances of an edit war, it very low. If we did, all we had to do was say is "it's not' and that be it.


 * Simply, it does, in no way look like a promotional image and in not way at all, is he looking at the camera. MM/ Want to talk? 14:52, April 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, that's fair enough. Just my misjudgement. Also, @NileQT87, I notice that since our disagreement and misunderstanding you appear to have grown a grudge against me. I don't see why, I apologised and I deeply regret the huge mistake I made, especially over a group of categories that soon went away anyways. I respect you as an editor and wish you would not cruel to me. Yes, I may replace a few photos, and yes, I may make uploads or image choices that you do not like, but all the images I replace have good reasons, I just don't do it at random. If an image violates a policy or could be better, I replace it. I wish you wouldn't hate me so. Anyways, I'm goin' with 4! OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 19:35, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Winnowing down
Okay, people, this thing shouldn't drag on forever. It appears that we've already had some clear enthusiasm expressed for some of these, so let's begin with an initial round of voting. I'll bring down those pics that have already received some support:

Which should be in the infobox? 1 4 6 11 13 Place your votes above and give your reasons below. 15:14: Sun 22 Apr 2012
 * 1 15:20: Sun 22 Apr 2012 As I've consistently maintained, the image doesn't need to be changed. To me, it's not a "Gollum face".  It's the perfect expression of that in-between-happy-and-sad-state that Matt does so well. It's a fun smile, but if you look more closely, it's a bit wistful.  And I think the TARDIS backdrop is cool, at least for the present time. It subtly suggests he's the current occupant of the TARDIS, because none of the other Doctor pictures have the TARDIS in them.
 * OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 19:40, April 22, 2012 (UTC) 4. I take back what I said about 6 being the best, looking at it again, it is a bit too close. that said, I think 2 and 11 look about the same, really, except in 11 Matt's eyes are kinda looking at you, while in 4 his eyes look to the left. Also 4 is a bit less rotated, which just makes for a better image, also being from a better angle. I will agree that 1 is just a BIT too creepy for the main pic.... And I wouldn't go with the last one because there was a slight production error in the shot. (the blue in his hair) Out of all these images, 4 is without-a-doubt the best.
 * 4 Memnarc talk to me 21:07, April 22, 2012 (UTC) I feel like number 4 does a better job of portraying the "in-between-happy-and-sad-state" that CzechOut described. Also, as I've said, 1 creeps me out. Which is uncomfortable for me, as Matt Smith is my favorite Doctor.
 * 11 NileQT87 talk to me 06:39, April 23, 2012 (UTC) Voted 11, but I'm also comfortable with 4. 6 needs more hair and too close, 13 shouldn't be picked because it lacks the jacket (plus the hair is slicked back--I like Matt better with the fluffier Aladdin haircut/side-bang) and 1 is... indeed creepy. Also, pictures where Matt Smith appears to have eyebrows are generally better than the ones where they don't show up!

The end of time
Okay, there were six people in the initial discussion period, there are six votes recorded as of 15:04, April 23, 2012 (UTC), let's move on. This is a really minor issue, since there will inevitably be more and better pictures in a few months, anyway. There's absolutely no need to prolong this decision making process.

I'm declaring that 2/3rds of the participants to the discusion have voted against pic 1, which means that there is consensus for change. The only two pictures left standing are thus 4 and 11. Although only one person has actually voted for 11, its viability as a candidate is confirmed by the discussion upthread with people who either favored 11 outright or at least positively defended it. 15:04: Mon 23 Apr 2012

Which one's the winner? 4 11
 * 11 15:08: Mon 23 Apr 2012 I'm going 11 in this round.  It's clearly the brighter of the two. You get a nice, rumpled bow tie, the full jacket, the interesting upward eye angle, the eye color, etc.  It works better on unmagnified wikiamobile, too.


 * 11 MM/ Want to talk? 15:16, April 23, 2012 (UTC) for all the resons I have argued and mention above. MM/ Want to talk? 15:16, April 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 15:31, April 23, 2012 (UTC) For the reasons that I stated above.


 * 4 -- Tybort (talk page) 15:55, April 23, 2012 (UTC) I don't deny 11 is brighter, but I still say that the expression on 4 is a better fit for the aforementioned "happy, but sad".


 * 11 -- I chose this one because it has barely any shadow and is bright enough to see his eye color. Shambala108 talk to me 20:37, April 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * 4 Memnarc talk to me 22:56, April 23, 2012 (UTC) For the reasons I already mentioned, but also because 11, although bright, isn't very expressive.

Closing
Well, I've waited a couple of days because the vote has been too close to call. I had hoped that a clear preference might have been expressed by the community. It hasn't been. A one-vote margin isn't really determinative in a wiki situation because consensus isn't about majority rule.

I'm therefore just going to make a decision based more on my sense of the feelings of the discussion.


 * 1) There was clear consensus for change at the time the first round of voting concluded. (It has become less clear since another vote was registered on the first poll after it was closed.  Unfortunately the poll feature can't be formally closed, so late votes can confuse the picture after the fact.)
 * 2) It's my sense that there are more people who voted for 11 that would be okay with 4 than the reverse. In other words, 11's negatives are higher than 4's — even though I think User:OttselSpy25's objections to 11, in particular, are flatly ill-judged.

Therefore I judge 4 to be the "winner", and will be changing it over. Because we've bothered to have a formal discussion about the infobox pic, all users are warned not to change the infobox pic until the beginning of the next series. At that time, the consensus of this discussion will expire due to the presence of new material. 05:01: Thu 26 Apr 2012