Talk:Series 14 (Doctor Who)

Edit war
Locking article for a day to put a halt to the edit wars. Resolve this issue here without edit warring (and without spoilers, whatever they might be). Shambala108 ☎  21:25, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Aw21212121 ☎  21:30, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Shame it didn’t get locked before it got reverted to prevent inaccuracy. Danniesen ☎  22:48, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Danniesen's interpretation of the recent DWM is correct as far as the writing credit - it's too vague to be used for that. (I mean. I'm sure ultimately we're going to change it to be as it is currently. But what's currently there is not a source.) Najawin ☎  23:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, there’s no doubt that eventually, it will prove true and the page will have to say this, but the wiki should only reflect the latest "truth"… that meaning that even if A would prove untrue upon a certain date and it turned out that B was correct in the end, at the given time until B was proven, the wiki would go with A, as it would be the latest information until disproven. Danniesen ☎  23:49, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * @ User:Danniesen, as one of the editors who engaged in edit warring, you can't really complain about the state of the article when it was locked. Proper procedure is to contact an admin, not continually revert edits until an admin finally steps in.


 * This page will be unlocked tomorrow; please resolve this issue here without complaining about how or when it was locked. That is not what this talk page is for. Shambala108 ☎  03:14, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @ User:Danniesen These are your claims: we can safely assume who directed an episode based on what's left after the other episodes/directors are assigned, but we cannot safely assume who wrote an episode based on what's left after the other episodes/writers are assigned. That's exactly what you've said. Either the writer is included, or the director is not included. Aw21212121 ☎  10:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Writer and director are two entirely different things. A writer is not guaranteed a certain spot, but a director is. These days there are two episodes per block (sometimes that includes the special, but most often it does not), which means that if all but one episode have been accounted for, there is one director who only has one episode listed, which means that this director also has the last remaining episode. Also, the episodes in each block are always filmed together, which means that the director of the special only had that one episode on their CV. It’s pretty easy logic. Danniesen ☎  13:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Davies said he has written four specials for 2023/2024. Three specials for the 60th, leaves the special for Christmas, plus what he's written for Series 14. Concerning the specials, to paraphrase you, that means that if all but one special have been accounted for out of the four Davies has directly said he's written, there is one episode left out after the three anniversary specials, which means that this writer (Davies) also has the last remaining. "It’s pretty easy logic." Concerning "These days there are two episodes per block" has been incorrect since Series 12; Series 13 had two three-episode blocks, 2022 specials were three one-episode blocks, 2023 specials was one three-episode block, and Series 14 had a one-episode block for the Christmas special, proving this false. Would you like to correct that?
 * @ User:Shambala108 You may be interested in the fact that as soon as the page was unlocked, Danniesen went straight back to reverting despite your warning to them. Aw21212121  ☎  02:38, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

So you're violating our spoiler rule here, technically. But the quote that's in a previous version of the page doesn't establish what you're claiming. (I note that it's incomplete, it trails off. It's possible that it does entail what you're saying. But as written in the history it just doesn't establish what you're proposing.) Najawin ☎  02:52, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

There seem to be a lot of assumptions regarding the information that is posted on the page. It seems counterproductive to assume that the next series will follow the patterns of previous series, especially when dealing with a new showrunner. One of the reasons we used to have a very strict spoiler policy was that sometimes the information we have prior to release either is incorrect or is changed before the actual airing.

Try to keep assumptions out of this page. Only post what the source actually says. Shambala108 ☎  03:02, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * How we we meant to discuss the content without "spoilers"? It's impossible to say "discuss it, but don't discuss anything of it".
 * The source states that Davies has written the fourth 2023 special. No source states that Donoughue has directed Episode 7. Either way, I would be happy with listing neither until we know either for certain. Aw21212121 ☎  04:48, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The source as represented in the edit history does not say that, no. It merely mentions that certain things are on his desk in front of him. If the source actually says that then please actually put that in the hidden text in the article. Najawin  ☎  05:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As I said, if there's disagreement on the writer, I'm happy for neither to be included. However, the other editor also needs to agree not to include assumptions, instead of edit-warring the minute the page was unlocked. Aw21212121 ☎  06:24, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Nah, these are two distinct issues. The writer is flat out wrong given the quote. Can't be in the article at present time. If you want to make your case for why the director also shouldn't be cited as it was, you're free to do so. But the two issues are independent of each other. Najawin ☎  07:04, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Because the director isn't sourced, it's that simple. It's based on an assumption already proved wrong. Aw21212121 ☎  05:46, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Have you read the sources in question? I just spent twenty minutes going through them, they absolutely imply that the director is directing both episodes in question. (Well, with one additional piece of information that isn't present.) 4 and 5 are block 1, originally 2 and 3 were block 3, this was changed to 1 and 3, see next link, now 2 and 6 are are block 4, and block 5's director is the one in question (+final block). Additional piece of info needed is that Special = Block 2, which can be inferred from DWM 590 and DWM, uh, 586? The citations on this page do need to be cleared up though, some of them link to things that have very little to do with what they're claiming, I agree. But you can parse out the implication if you do the footwork on every link. Najawin ☎  07:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I have read them. And in which of them does it actually state that block 5 is two episodes? Or is that an "inferring" situation too? Aw21212121 ☎  21:12, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * We know what block 1 is. We know what block 3 is. We know what block 4 is. We infer what block 2 is from the two DWMs. Thus, given the only block left is block 5, per the source, we know what block 5 is. This is an issue of sheer logic, not of guesswork like your writer attribution was. Obviously this might change - as block 3 did, but the sources we have absolutely imply this at the current time. Najawin ☎  21:37, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * So the answer is, yes, it is an assumption; just as I have no source explicitly stating Davies as the writer of the festive special, you too have no source explicitly stating Donoughue as the director of Episode 7, or no source explicitly block 5 is two episodes. Everything here is based on inferring and assuming. Aw21212121 ☎  21:39, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No, the answer is, no, it's not an assumption. This is the only possibility given the sources we currently have. If the sources we have are all telling the truth this must be the case. Now, some of them may be wrong. But this is logically entailed from the sources we have. You literally just speculated based on wording and put it down as fact. These are qualitatively different things. Najawin ☎  21:46, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I have no dog in this fight except in keeping with wiki policy. There seems to be a lot of use of the words "imply" and "infer" regarding some of these sources. To quote directly from Series 14 (Doctor Who), "Please also remember to directly quote people, or to exactly characterise their statements. Do not say that someone said something when they really didn't. Work from original quotes — not a paraphrasing of them. When it comes to anything Chris Chibnall, Matt Strevens or any major star of the show says, give their exact quote only. Remember, a part of the production team's job is to tell the truth, but only very narrowly. So this page should contain only what they exactly say." Shambala108 ☎  22:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Shambala, I'm using the term to refer to material implication, not how the term is colloquially used. Imply as in entail, not as in suggest. Apologies if this was unclear. Najawin ☎  22:10, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Nothing has been resolved here, and User:Danniesen and User:Aw21212121 continue to revert each others' edits; therefore this page is locked for a week. If this issue is not resolved by the time the lock expires, any further reverting by these two editors could result in a block. Shambala108 ☎  01:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * As it happens from the numerous replies in here by User:Najawin and I (and the edit summaries in which I also explained), all I can say is that it would seem that User:Aw21212121 fail to understand how we operate on the wiki and refuse to be taught. This combined with the fact that they also haven’t performed any other edits (one edit total) that isn’t just arguing on this page and in this talk page, leads me to the conclusion that they’re not willing to be a productive member of the wiki and are only looking to argue logic, which in turn makes reversal of constructive edits a clear case of vandalism. And as it happens, removing vandalism is one of the few things that doesn’t make it an edit war. Danniesen ☎  07:22, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I mean, I'm sympathetic on the director issue, it's like sudoku, you have to do a bit of work. (Or more specifically, it's like truth tables.) But once the reasoning has been provided you need to at least admit these are qualitatively different things. Najawin ☎  07:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Danniesen, you haven't responded since the page was initially locked, and you've only now returned here because it's locked. As Shambala108 said: use exact quotes. No exact quotes declare the director for Episode 7. Logic does not conform with the quote in the header, logic is not an exact quote. The header is something I'll repeat: "Please also remember to directly quote people, or to exactly characterise their statements. Do not say that someone said something when they really didn't. Work from original quotes — not a paraphrasing of them. When it comes to anything Chris Chibnall, Matt Strevens or any major star of the show says, give their exact quote only. Remember, a part of the production team's job is to tell the truth, but only very narrowly. So this page should contain only what they exactly say." This is very clear. Very. No paraphrasing. No saying something that hasn't been said. Original quotes.
 * (Also to note, the "Chris Chibnall, Matt Strevens" links in the header should be updated for S14.) Aw21212121 ☎  08:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Logic is also a big part of it, and working from experience, this concludes that there can only be one director for the remaining episode. That is how it works. It should also be noted that we have used logical conclusions in the past as well, so the idea that we should not all of a sudden because you don’t feel for it is outlandish. And I repeat, all you’ve been doing since your initial first edit has been to argue here. Plenty of time to do something on the wiki and you’ve only waited it out here on this page. Now if you had a lot of valuable editing on the wiki, I might have just taken you more seriously. But you’ve only been arguing on this case. Danniesen ☎  08:38, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * On another note, I agree that the Instructions Template should be updated with new (old) names as it’s no longer Chibnall and Strevens in charge. Danniesen ☎  08:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's an assumption based on filming blocks from four years ago; do you have a source that this series' production blocks (bar block 2) are all two episodes? I could just as well assume that any of the existing blocks could end up being three episodes. The information warning on the page, and the administrator who has contributed here, are both very direct in the clarification to only use direct quotes. I am not arguing, I am discussing the only issue I find relevant at this current point in time. Aw21212121 ☎  09:18, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh dear… this is just going around in circles. Danniesen ☎  09:27, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed; there is clearly no consensus. But if we listen to the admins, quoting Shambala108: "Try to keep assumptions out of this page. Only post what the source actually says." Aw21212121 ☎  09:28, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

No assumptions were made. It’s a logical conclusion. But fine. Danniesen ☎  09:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think my writer addition is a logical conclusion, you disagree. You think your director addition is a logical conclusion, I disagree. Boiling it down, we're just arguing about the same thing. Aw21212121 ☎  10:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As Najawin (and I myself) pointed out… no, they’re not the same thing. Danniesen ☎  10:52, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * And that is your opinion. Aw21212121 ☎  11:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No. That is factual. Danniesen ☎  11:13, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

User:Danniesen please re-familiarize yourself with Tardis:No personal attacks. Your behavior to a new editor here is giving a very false impression about how we want to treat new editors. Shambala108 ☎  15:18, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Not everything is a personal attack. You can have an argument with someone and even say their stance is incorrect without it being a personal attack. New user or not. I’m sorry, but does it not raise any alarms with you that a user does not interact with the wiki other than to undo one specific edit over and over, even when explanations are given (by two different users even)? Danniesen ☎  15:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * "It's an assumption based on filming blocks from four years ago; do you have a source that this series' production blocks (bar block 2) are all two episodes?"


 * No it's not. This is why I asked whether you actually read the sources. They explicitly say which episodes are parts of which blocks, and all but block 5 are accounted for. Whether or not these sources end up being wrong is irrelevant, things change, it's something we have to deal with in editing pages like this. But at the present time this is the best information we have, and it logically entails the conclusion Danniesen has placed on the page. Nobody is assuming things. And quite frankly this seems to me to be an archetypal T:POINT violation. Najawin ☎  17:51, 29 May 2023 (UTC)