Talk:Totem (short story)

Which Doctor?
Someone brought this up on another wiki....

basically, there is nothing in this short story to indicate that The Doctor in question is The Eighth Doctor. A man, calling himself "John Smith" arrives in Spain. He works for the widow for approximately 9 months. He clearly has a psychological/emotional burden. He argues with another man(who is unidentified). He fins the body of the woman's husband. It is revealed in the narrative that he is....The Doctor(no incarnation given or hinted at). He leaves. That's it. There is nothing mentioning long hair or a "Wild Bill" outfit. It is never mentioned what is troubling him, other than he has "blood on his hands". For all we know it could be The Third Doctor after "The Sea Devils". Or The Fifth Doctor after "Earthshock". Or The Sixth Doctor after "Attack Of The Cybermen". Or.... Master of Spiders ☎  16:13, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe that for Doctors where the incarnation isn't specified, or it's an ambiguous "future" Doctor, we call the page "The Doctor", followed by a dab term. If there's really nothing positively identifying the Doctor as Paul McGann and the man he's arguing with as Sylvester McCoy, then I assume it's not too much a stretch to make it The Doctor (Totem). -- Tybort (talk page) 16:24, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Master of Spiders, I suggest you reread the story. It says his hair is "long, brown, and wavy" and he wears a green velvet coat. He also suffers from memory problems. The hair color rules out the three Doctors you've mentioned. Shambala108 ☎  18:41, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I figured that there was some sort of description in there... Case closed I guess... OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 18:51, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

No it isn't. I actually went though the story, cut-and-pasting all references to The Doctor, showing several that disqualified Eight from being The Doctor in question. But, this site wouldn't allow the edit. I'll try again later. Also, "long brown wavy hair"(it mentions "curly hair" at one point) sounds like The Fourth Doctor. "Green velvet coat" sounds like The Third Doctor. Like I said, I'll try again later, and hopefully it will allow the edit... But the overall point was this sounds like it could be one of several Doctors. Sort of like The Infinity Doctors where it's deliberately never made clear which incarnation it is. Master of Spiders ☎  08:13, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I must ask that you stop this. The story names him as a curly haired fellow with a velvet suit, that's all we really need to qualify it as the Eighth Doctor. If there are things that disqualify him from being the Doctor, well that's more of a production error than a disqualifier for 8. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 12:22, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

That is unnecessarily rude. Here are the things I actually added yesterday(but disappeared?)

"Quiet, strange, but undoubtedly good"-(sounds like Four)

"a tall handsome man" -(that's not Paul Mcgann. I won't comment on how handsome or not he is :-), but he's only 5ft7) "who would have seemed young and in the prime of his life" (okay, but that could also be others. 'Young' is also subjective in that Senora Panstedas is older, and anyone other than One or Three would be 'young' and 'in the prime of life' to her)

"grey-blue, empty eyes" (Mcgann's eyes are blue, not 'grey-blue'. You know who does have grey-blue eyes? Tom Baker)

"hair was long, brown and wavy" (sounds far more like Four)

"his skin was pale" (not quite Mcgann, is it?)

"His accent was unfamiliar, though each word was carefully pronounced" (that's Four again)

"he'd been wearing a coat of green velvet" (that's Three)

"a simple white shirt" (so, NOT some frilly Wild Bill Hicock shirt". You know who did wear simple white shirts? Four)

"grey trousers that looked to be of good quality" (anyone other than Two, Five or Six then)

"and brown leather shoes" (no comment)

"speaking very fast"(sounds more like Nine, though he didn't exist then)

"straggling curl of hair" (Four again)

His only identifications are when he says "I am the Doctor" and then later "I am The Doctor. No other"

If that is enough for you to know that it is The Eighth Doctor, I would appreciate your describing of how you came to that conclusion. You can not just pick-and-choose one very vague description, and discard several that point to something you do not agree with. Master of Spiders ☎  14:15, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Would it really be anything significant if this is recategorized under Category:Stories with unknown or disputed Doctors? Master of Spiders ☎  14:25, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes it would. This incarnation is obviously 8. Obviously. Seperate these descriptions are ambiguous, but together they are 8. And really? Arguing over shades of blue.
 * Discussion over. 8th Doctor. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 14:28, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

First, "shades of blue" is not something petty. As an example, both oxford and Cambridge use shades of blue, and people are instantly recognisable by their support for one or the other by which "shade of blue" is used. But, "grey-blue" is NOT even a shade of blue. In fact, "blue" is one specific colour. There are various different colours that people mistakenly refer to as blue. Paul Mcgann's eyes are definitely not grey-blue, either way though.

Second, taken together it is not Eight. That was my actual point in the first place! A couple of things could be Eight, but most of them clearly can't. The point was that someone took the minority where there was some ambiguity, and said "That's Eight!" However, everything else disqualifies Eight.

Last, I asked you to explain why you believe it is Eight with logical thought, and your 'proof' amounts to you acting like my pointing out a description of The Doctor's eyes disqualifies Eight is somehow petty, and totally avoiding the question. You still have not provided anything. Master of Spiders ☎  14:38, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


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 * Sigh. This is eight. Eight had long curly hair, blue eyes, memory proplems, a velvet suit, grey trousers, leather shoes, a unique accent and basically all of those things described. Your argument that this isn't 8 is that 8 isn't pretty. And lemme tell you, you are entirely wrong. I use McGann as my Youtube account icon and I'm always getting comments like "Is that you're face? You're cute!". There is no proof that this isn't 8; any qualities that describe him wrong are continuity errors, not proof that it isn't him. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 15:09, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Eight had blue eyes, but the Doctor described in Totem had "grey-blue eyes". Eight didn't have a unique accent. He has a standard(for the time) BBC accent. He isn't tall. He doesn't speak very fast. he never wore a plain white short. You also went off an an unnecessary tangent about Mcgann's looks. I specifically stated above that i wouldn't comment on Mcgann's looks yet you know seem to think that my commenting on Mcgann's looks is the sum of my argument? Judging by this discussion, you don't seem tor ead things properly before coming to conclusions...

Last "any qualities that describe him wrong are continuity errors, not proof that it isn't him". Sorry, but that is ridiculous. if the description by the author(who also edited the More Short Trips under his real name) differs significantly from Eight to the point where it can not possibly be Eight then you can't just say "Oh, it is Eight. The mountain of stuff that means it can't possibly be Eight is just continuity errors!" Master of Spiders ☎  15:24, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * "Eight had blue eyes, but the Doctor described in Totem had "grey-blue eyes".
 * So he's described with blue eyes.
 * "Eight didn't have a unique accent."
 * No, but he does if you're in Mexico.
 * "He doesn't talk very fast"
 * Watch the scene where he's explaining the eye of harmony. He. Talks. Fast.
 * "I specifically stated above that i wouldn't comment on Mcgann's looks yet you know seem to think that my commenting on Mcgann's looks is the sum of my argument?"
 * You brought it up multiple times.
 * "he never wore a plain white short."
 * I'm going to presume that that's a typo. He wore a white shirt. That's enough.
 * The description is so obviously Eight. The large mountain of proof that it is 8 is only balanced against by your feeble points of "8 wasn't tall" and "Eight didn't have that exact colour eyes". Your argument is weak and not rational. The fact that you say "you don't seem tor ead things properly before coming to conclusions" [Whatever that means] is incredibly ironic. Also note that your editing of the page while a discussion is going on is unorthodox. It's defiance and could get you in trouble if you do it often. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 15:55, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Did you actually read anything I typed? If so, did you understand it?

The eyes...The Eighth Doctor has BLUE eyes. It specifically says in Totem that The Doctor has GREY-BLUE eyes. You so "So he's described with blue eyes". Your comment is a blatant and baldfaced lie. He is clearly described with GREY-BLUE eyes.

Eight also doesn't have a unique accent. he certainly has a foreign accent as far as the Senora would be concerned. But not unique. Also it doesn't matter one jot what anything would be like in Mexico, sine '''the story is not set in Mexico. It's set in Portugal.'''

He never wore a plain white shirt. You're "going to presume that's a typo"? A typo is getting one letter wrong. It is not adding a descriptive adjective, correctly spelled, and proofread. Your problem is obviously since Eight never wore a plain white shirt(but other Doctors did) it can not possibly be Eight.

And, once again you misinterpret what I said about the Eighth Doctor's looks! I said that the Doctor here is described as "tall and handsome". I said I would not comment on whether Mcgann is handsome, but he sure ain't tall. You then go off on a tangent about how you use Mcgann and people keep telling you that is cute.

To sum up, it is NOT obviously Eight. There are various things which mean it can't be him. You dismiss them as "typos" and [my] "feeble points". But they are not "my" anything. They are the descriptions that were deliberately put there to describe The Doctor by the person who actually wrote the story! Master of Spiders ☎  16:05, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Did anyone actually read the story?
According to the article The Doctor argues with his previous self in his mind, but shouts in real life. First, there is NO indication is The Doctor's previous self, nor a Doctor at all. However, the bit about "in his mind" is totally contradicted by

"She could see nothing but she could hear the voices - first John's plaintive tones and then a softer voice, low, dry, tinged with another accent she didn't recognise"

...

"His short gasps of exertion were steamrolled over by the commanding voice of the other man".

...

"Then the other man spoke again"

...

"The other man's voice scared her"

So, The Doctor is talking to himself "in his mind" yet the Senora is able to hear the other man's voice. At one stage "John" and the other man are speaking at the same time, and the Senora hears both voices. That's quite an impressive feat for talking to yourself in your mind! Master of Spiders ☎  15:32, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lastly, it's Wikipedia(yes, yes, I know...) but their description f this story says(and has done so far a long long time)

Seeking redemption for a number of crimes, the Doctor begins working on a Mexican farm owned by Senora Panstedas, a widower, and the pair become great friends, until the Doctor discovers Senora has committed a much darker crime.

The Mexico location contrasts the Spain listed here. The joke is that even I was drawn in by the idea of Spain! Two place names are listed...Machico and Funchal. A quick Google search tells us they are both in....Portugal. Not Spain, not Mexico. Portugal. The Wikipedia article also implies that the Senora was somehow involved in her husband's death. However the near-to-last words are Senora Panstedas died a few years later, mever learning the truth about he husband's death.

There is also NO mention of ANY date in the story itself.Master of Spiders ☎  15:37, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Problems with this article
OK we need to take a breath and step back here. There are problems with this article. I've been editing a lot of ST stories lately, but this one was mostly intact so I did only a little to it. However, I did remove the reference to the "voice" being the Seventh Doctor, because there is no clear evidence of him. Most of the existing info on this article seems to come from the Doctor Who Reference Guide, which allows for more interpreting than we do.

However, all that being said, there is enough evidence to show that the Eighth Doctor was meant. The hair and the jacket fit (and it doesn't matter how many other Doctors had curly hair or wore green jackets, the point is that these are two key features of the Eighth). This story mentions memory problems, also a feature of the Eighth. As for eye color, there is a story (can't remember which off the top of my head) where they Second Doctor's eye color changes three times in one story, and people do have different interpretations of eye color, so I won't call this issue enough to rule out Eight. Lastly, attractiveness and even height are relative. Most ST stories that I've read with Eight seem to have women falling all over him, so he's obviously considered attractive by many.

Most ST writers write about a specific Doctor, and seem to expect us to understand which one they write about, no matter how vague their descriptions are. I've read a lot of these stories and have come to understand which characteristics are popularly associated with each Doctor as written by the ST authors. Master of Spiders, you started this thread by saying there is no evidence that the Doctor here is the Eighth, but as OttselSpy25 and I have pointed out, there is enough evidence to show it's the Eighth. Shambala108 ☎  17:00, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Even if the Eight Doctor was meant, there is too much contradictory evidence. Various Doctors have had memory problems at different times. Again, the "handsome" part was simply to quote the text, the point was height. I've also read lots of stories, and several are indeed written generically for "The Doctor", and people can disagree about which Doctor it is.

By the way:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9nkmqIkry1rqad0p.jpg (Eighth Doctor in The TV Movie)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fa/Dying_Days.jpg/200px-Dying_Days.jpg (Eighth Doctor in the VNA)

http://datechguy.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/b016_storm_big.jpg (Eighth Doctor BFA)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110117170153/tardis/images/5/56/The_Land_of_Happy_Endings.png (Eighth Doctor DWM)

Now, is it just me, or is that black, rather than green?

(Admittedly, he did go green in http://www.doctorwhoreviews.co.uk/EDA57_files/The%20Crooked%20World%20Cover.jpg), but that is set MUCH later in his timeline, and was only released in 2002! Master of Spiders ☎  17:40, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Although at times the jacket seems black, upon closer inspection, it is green. https://ohmywordness.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/eighth-doctor.jpg

Also note these images:. Very clearly grey-blue eyes.

And to "His accent wasn't strange" and "He wasn't tall", remember, this is relative to Mexico. Not to be racist, just a point; over there his voice might be considered quite strange.

He wears leather shoes, has grey-blue eyes, wears a green jacket, has memory problems, has brown curly hair, has a white shirt, and has light brown well-kept pants. He IS the Eighth Doctor. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 18:29, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

First, that is not grey-blue.

Second, here are more pics of The Eighth Doctor from The TV Movie

. All of which(and countless more) make it abundantly clear it is in fact a black coat, unlike the faded(and possibly shopped) picture you showed.

Hpwever, here's a pic where light is reflected. Which may be the origin of this and more.

Anyway, the point that stands that a "green" jacket is not characteristic of the Eighth Doctor.

Next up, AGAIN...first The Eighth Doctor has a standard BBC accent, which may be foreign to the Senora's accent, but it would in no way, shape or form be unique. Height, maybe. But, yet again, the story is not set in Mexico. You keep mentioning Mexico. But read the actual story, make note of the placenames. Get it? Even stranger the article's infobox says it's set in Spain, yet the text states Mexico. That's one big farm. Ana again, you ignore the "plain" part relating to the shirt. Basically, your entire argument revolves around you picking-and-choosing those elements that support your case, while completely dismissing everything that contradicts it. Master of Spiders ☎  04:52, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * First, that is greyish blue. Thus, grey-blue.


 * "Basically, your entire argument revolves around you picking-and-choosing those elements that support your case..." Uh, no. My point is that none of your points are noteworthy.


 * The Eighth Doctor DID wear a plain-white shirt. eighth-doctor-paul-mcgann.jpg Plain. White. Shirt.


 * If you really think that the Eighth Doctor had a black coat, I must tell you that you're mistaken. Watch the film again and You'll see that when he leaves the dark TARDIS set his coat is clearly green. Here's some more images from the movie: Green Green Clearly dark green.


 * Spinoff material has also used the green coat: Shada, Absolution comic preview, Seasons of Fear comic preview, Storm Warning comic preview, Time Works Comic preview, The Dying Days, Faith Stealer, The Crooked World, The Forgotten.


 * Products are also made with a green jacket: 50th Anniversary Model, I, Who book, Micro figure.


 * Anyway, the point that stands that the "green" jacket is totally a characteristic of the Eighth Doctor. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 05:41, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

"Grey-blue" is not blue. It may be similar, but it's something different and separate.

We could go on posting images like this. But here's blue again. Anyway, the point is that he originally wore black (The TV Movie). he also later DID wear green, as well as blue, and possibly other colours(will need to check up). So one particular colour jacket is in fact NOT "totally a chracteristic of the Eighth Doctor". In fact "long hair" and "velvet" aren't even "totally a chracteristic" of him either. ,.

Next, yes, the shirt is white. No one ever said anything to the contrary. However, it's not a "plain" white shirt. 

Next, memory loss. Here's the tricky one...for you that is. There are two possible gaps where Totem may take place in the Eighth Doctor's timeline. First, in the near-three-year gap between "Bounty" and "Vampire Science". Sadly this falls down completely, as The Eighth Doctor has all his memories back by then(so much for your 'characteristic' of memory loss). Next, if the other man is Seven(and that's a tremendous leap) is he visiting his next incarnation right after regeneration? Thus it can't possible go here. The time when the Eighth Doctor DID have memory loss was during his 113-year stay on Earth between "The Ancestor Cell" and "Escape Velocity". Unfortunately, he didn't know there what he knows here and his "past self" would have been unable to visit him here too. To say nothing of the fact that More Short Trips was written some time BEFORE this exile on Earth again. In fact, it is shown here that he is voluntarily doing this, and can leave at any time, which contradicts his 113-year stay on Earth. But, either way, this story is like "Death Comes To Time" for the Seventh Doctor, in that it can't be fitted into his timeline. At least in DCTT we KNOW it's Seven/Mccoy. With Totem we do NOT know which Doctor "John" is. Master of Spiders ☎  06:21, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

....short.... Not plain white shirt. Master of Spiders ☎  09:45, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, that's a plain white shirt. Just a normal white shirt with the colla pushed up, nothing more.


 * And, no, he is NOT wearing a black coat in the movie. It is very obviously dark green. Dpinoff material has always identified 8's jacket as green, and it was; I can get five images to show that it's green for every image you pull out for it being black or blue. The Eighth Doctor's green coat very clearly is a well known charactoristic of 8. To say "Well, his cost varies in colour, so this isn't necisarily him in bolocks. And yes, velvet and long hair are very much charactoristics of 8. More importantly, velvet, long hair, memory loss, leather shoes, grey-blue eyes, a white shirt, and brown pants are most certainly characteristics of the 8th Doctor.


 * I'm not even gonna read your timeline rant because I don't think where it happend matters, more like who it happend to is the issue. Timeline really doesn't have anything to do with which Doctor it is, that's why we got rid of timelines long ago. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 12:27, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Look at the arms of the shirt. Not plain white. One that showed the fronts(with the buttons) would emphasize this, if someone has a pic of one.

It is also interesting to note that all my pics of The TV Movie have been clear and pretty high-def, while your ones have faded colours, and strange things happening. This reminds me of when old Pertwee stories that existed only in black-and-white were copied onto VHS tapes by fans. Eventually multiple-generation copies started showing colours. These were not the original colours, but rather because the poor quality of the images produced this effect......But regardless of whether he wore a black jacket, a blue jacket or a green jacket, the fact remains....there are multiple stories with him in each. Thus, no one colour jacket can be a "chracteristic"" of him. And your statement about "for every image you pull out" ca not possibly be verified. Then the eyes. After your insistence that *'s eyes are blue, and "grey-blue" was a typo, you now take the position that he has grey-blue eyes all along. So you've changed your argument....Long hair, various Doctors had long hair. Memory loss...see elsewhere on this talk page. Brown pants...various Doctors. Leather shoes...Ditto.

And once again, you dismiss evidence that contradicts your viewpoint. You show just how you handle a discussion, by saying "I'm not even gonna read your timeline rant, because I don't think where it happened matters, more like it who it happened to is the issue"...But my so-called "timeline rant", shows that the who, can not be 8, as there is nowhere in 8's timeline where this could have happened. Your response? Simply dismiss it totally, and pretend the fact doesn't exist! Just like you've been doing all along. Taking those facts that support your position, blatantly twisting and distorting others to suit your position, and then dismissing out of hand everything that contradicts your position.

As far as "where it happened", this does matter on two levels. One, so the article can be accurate. And two, it shows up how non-existent your position is. Even after the locations were pointed out, you kept repeating "Mexico" over and over! This shows beyond any reasonable doubt that even when the facts are there, you insist on sticking to your original position, and simply ignoring what the narrative actually says. So, your insistence on "Mexico" despite evidence to the contrary...is identical to your insistence on "Eight", despite evidence to the contrary. Master of Spiders ☎  14:19, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * My images were from the episode, and thus more notable. Your images were badly lit publicity photos that, of coarse, made the coat look black. My images were from the movie.


 * Once again, you have no evidence that your evidence is notable. No, 8's timelime does not matter. The adventures with John and Gillian make absolutely no sense within the First or Second Doctor's timeline. Is it still them? Yes. None of your points mean anything, they're all speculatory things like "his eyes are blue, not blue grey" and "he isn't wearing a plain white shirt; as well as other points that don't matter.


 * That doesn't matter on any level. There is no relevance to any of your points on 8, and furthermore my comments on Mexico are irrelevant. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 15:13, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

No. My images were both grabs from the movie, as well as publicity photos. In any case, are you saying that he wore a different coat for photos and for filming? Your photos are nth generation copies were the colours have started to go wonky.

I have no evidence that my evidence is notable? What is that supposed to mean? I have quoted directly from the story "Totem". I have linked to images featuring the Eighth Doctor. How is that evidence not notable? If that isn't notable, what is? Once again, you are dismissing out of hand evidence that contradicts your prejudiced opinion.....John and Gillian can actually be fitted into the First and Second Doctor's timelines. And several people have done just that.

The facts that his eyes and his shirt are different to the Eight Doctor's do matter. In fact, that was the whole point of this discussion. This is the latest(but I'll bet not the last) time where, when presented with evidence directly from the narrative source in question, simply dismiss it as non-notable. But in that case, why don't we say that "The Doctor" in Totem is actually Romana? The fact that the article refers to "he", "John" etc. must just be typos that don't matter? It amounts to the same thing as your argument, if argument it be deemed.

And, as noted earlier, your repeated usage of saying the story takes place in mexico perfectly illustrates your entire approach. You say "Mexico". Conclusive evidence from the narrative source we are discussing shows it is Portugal, and yet you continue to repeat "It is set in Mexico!" because that is the position you originally took, and you refuse to admit that you are wrong. You also say things like details about height, eye colour, jacket etc. are "not notable" are "typos", or "continuity errors". Admit it, you have no argument, and you're just needlessly dragging out this discussion, and making it unnecessarily hostile in the process.

To summarise: 1)There is no clear narrative source which clearly identifies which Doctor "John" is. 2)There is nothing that states the other man is another incarnation of The Doctor 3)The Doctor talks to the other man in real life, not in his head 4)There is nothing which even suggests the date this story occurs 5)The story is set in Portugal, not Spain and/or Mexico.Master of Spiders ☎  15:29, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, you showed nothing but badly lit publicity photos and one image from the TV movie. I supplied multiple frames from the film as one publicity photo that was actually lit well. You also seem to have no idea what you're talking about in terms of video generation levels. I am prolific in video editing, and a different generation of video will not magically change a coat's color. The jacket is dark green, not black.


 * You have no evidence that is notable. You did show multiple quotes from Totem'm, but most of them suggested that it was'' the Eighth Doctor, rather than it wasn't. The most notable points you had were "8 isn't that tall..." And "It's not a 'plain' white shirt...", none of which were really that interesting, notable, or important.


 * You have presented nothing from the narritive that suggests that this isn't the doctor. I'm not defiant, or unable to accept facts; you just have no evidence to back yourdelf up.


 * Yes, I was mistaken in thinking that this story was set in Mexico. Purtugal, whatever; my point still stands. A Purtugese person may consider the Doctor's voice unique and his height tall.
 * My mistake of the story's setting is irrelevant to the discussion and infact a veiled personal attack.
 * Admit it, you have no argument, and you're just needlessly dragging out this discussion, and making it unnecessarily hostile in the process.


 * To summarise: 1)There is plenty of proof that this is the Eighth Doctor. He is described identically to him. 4)The date of the story is irrelivant to this discussion 5)The setting of the story is irrelevant to this discussion. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 16:35, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * The eye colour difference in this story is entirely irrelevent to the discussion, and instead acts to prove furthermore that this is infact the Eighth Doctor. Faction Paradox alter his biodata and cause his eye colour to change various times throughout his life, which was done to explain the inconsistencies between writers when describing the Doctor's eye colour. --Revan\Talk 18:53, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have gone through a bunch of my ST books, and have found 6 stories featuring the Eighth Doctor in a green coat. I didn't go through all of them because 6 is more than enough to prove the point. If anyone's interested I can list the stories in question.


 * So there is no need for this black v. green coat debate. Whether he ever wore a black coat is irrelevant, he did wear a green coat in several stories, and is described as doing so in this story. Shambala108 ☎  20:24, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

That is not logical at all. Did Eight ever wear a green coat? Yes. Did he veer wear a black coat? Yes. Did he ever wear a blue coat? Yes.... Your "Reasoning" seems to be because Eight did sometimes wear green, that the green coat must mean it is Eight. But others wore green coats too. And he wore differet coloured coats. M<y point is that a green coat is not a "characteristic of Eight" as was stated earlier by someone else, who was trying to use self-fulfilling logic.Master of Spiders ☎  05:14, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * You've missed my point. You said Eight only wears black, so I showed that he has several times worn green. Therefore the "it can't be Eight because he only wears black" argument is not valid. Shambala108 ☎  05:17, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

I never said anything of the sort. I said he wore black in The TV Movie, and in a considerable number of other adventures. He also wore blue in several adventures. He did also wear green in many adventures. Therefore saying that "green" is a "characteristic" of him is not true. In fact, the gap that most people try and place Totem in for him, is when he wore black. Master of Spiders ☎  07:44, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Locked
This article has been reverted to a point before this heated editing began and has been locked to prevent an actual edit war breaking out. This reversion should not be taken as administrative repudiation of anyone's later edits. I do not at all imply through this reversion that I disbelieve MOS, OS25 or Shambala. I'm just returning it to a neutral state so that the discussion can be the focus of proposed changes.

Additional comments will follow, either by myself, another admin, or both. In the meantime, all parties to the discussion need to just chill and consider the other parties' position carefully. Seems to me after my initial read that all sides have at least one really strong argument.

THe article will remain locked for at least one week — plenty of time to resolve differences here. 22:38: Mon 11 Feb 2013

Other issues apart from identity of The Doctor
Regardless of what anyone thinks about which incarnation of The Doctor "John" is, there are other problems, which have been outlined above. But to summarise:

1)Location. The infobox states "Spain". The text states "Mexico". However, two place names are mentioned as being nearby, both of which are near to each other in...Portugal

2)Date. There is nothing whatsoever in the story that evens hints at this

3)The identity of the other man. The article now states that it is The Doctor's past self. There is nothing that makes this clear, or even suggests it.

4)The Doctor "talks to himself in his head". Even IF the other man IS an earlier Doctor, it is repeatedly stated that the Senora hears the other man's voice, and at one part, hears both voices at the same time. Master of Spiders ☎  04:56, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1&2 are easy to fix once the article is unlocked. As for 3&4, as I stated above, I removed the reference to the Seventh Doctor, but since I didn't create the original material, I was reluctant to remove the rest of it. If there are no other objections to changing/removing 3&4, I have no problems with it. Shambala108 ☎  20:26, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Underlining the facts
All participants to this discussion, and (hopefully) those who haven't at all weighed in, are welcome to answer the following questions. Please keep your answers brief and on point and place them in the relevant section, below. Above all, please ensure that they contain only information from the story itself. 04:11: Wed 13 Feb 2013

Location
Does the story itself ever directly say what country they're in? Or is this Portugal business honestly just coming from Google? Please bear in mind our responsibility to adhere to T:NO RW.

Having said that, please explain why you are discounting the obvious clue that is in the text? The woman's title is Señora. If it were Portugual, she'd be Senhora. (On a peripheral note, does the story omit the tilde? Is there some good reason why we've said Senora rather than Señora?)


 * I have no idea about naming conventions. However, it states "She went outside into the yard, listened to the crickets and the birds, and wanted to walk. To Machico perhaps, even to Funchal. Anywhere. She soon tired of the dirt track leading to town and decided instead to wander through the fields. She paused to gaze at Pico de Facha, its greens and browns enriched in the gold of the sunlight, and then she heard voices".


 * The "voices" bit again contradicts the "talking to himself in his head" stuff, but that's not relevant to this point here. Now, I admit I did not know those place names, and needed to use Google. However, I'm sure the author would be familiar with those names. Machico, Funchal and Pico de Facha are all situated close to each other on the Portuguese island of Madeira. So unless the Senora was able to walk the tremendous distance on water from Spain(or Mexico) to reach them, her farm has to be on Madeira....a Portuguese island. Master of Spiders ☎  05:22, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * I again direct your attention to T:NO RW. We don't allow real world information into our articles.  The DWU is a place where the RW is frequently violated.  And it certainly appears that way here because this woman is not called "Senhora".  It suggests deliberate authorial misdirection to use Spanish to name the main character, but to use Portuguese town names. I take this as a signal that the author means not to suggest any real world place, but rather a sort of fictional place entirely.


 * Accordingly, you are absolutely forbidden to change the location of this story to Portugal if Google/Wikipedia is all ya got. You can mention your Google discovery in a story note, but you can't introduce that into the plot section, infobox, lead paragraph or categories. You also may not characterise any in-universe element as being from Portugal, Madiera, or anything like that.


 * Is there any scrap of description that gives us the country name in this story? It needs to literally be there on the page.  If not, the best we'll be able to say is that it is an "un-named, Spanish-speaking country", based upon the lead character's name.  Also, does the story use Senora or Señora?  02:02: Thu 14 Feb 2013


 * The story uses Señora. I haven't been using the squiggle (sorry I forget its name) in my posts because I don't know how, sorry for the confusion. Shambala108 ☎  02:28, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

You're joking, surely? The place names are real. I am certain that the author knew the places, where they're located. Anyone who has been to Madeira, or knows about it, would immediately recognize it as the location. Just because the few of us here didn't recognize the place names, doesn't mean that can't be the location.

And then, after you've just made a big deal out of "no real world", you use your reasoning for 'Spain' or 'Spanish=speking country' as....the usage of 'Senora', even discussing which form of the word is sued to show which Spanish=speking region. But that is certainly using 'real-world' knowledge to find the location! You yourself, said that the country-name literally needs to be there on the page. So, hypothetically, if it says the Doctor travels to New York, stops an alien from destroying the Statue of Liberty, sees a Broadway play, and the Empire State Building is described as being visible nearby, we can't say he's in the USA, because that isn't literally on the page? The only reason you came up with 'Spain' or 'Mexico' is because of Senora, but there is a Barcelona that isn't even anywhere near Earth. It's either Madeira, Portugal by use of place names, or using your own rules, we don't even know that it's on Earth.Master of Spiders ☎  06:03, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Incarnation
Why are you — Shambala and OS25 — insistent upon reading into the description the necessity of the story's use of the Eighth Doctor? Are you being told that from outside sources? Is there a description of the TARDIS interior that matches the TVM? Is the anthology from which it comes otherwise completely full of Eighth Doctor adventures? Or, if a multi-Doctor anthology, is there no other Eighth Doctor story, so this must logically be the Eighth Doctor story?


 * The ST stories, even more so than the novels, rely on description to tell us which Doctor is featured. Some of the anthologies tell us at the start which Doctor is featured, but most don't. Therefore the authors use visual cues, especially if the Doctor is without a companion. The standard description of Eight in these stories usually includes his hair - curly/wavy, brown, long - and his jacket - velvet, green, frock coat, Edwardian. There is also the issue that many of Eight's stories involve some woman falling for him and considering him attractive. Some of the stories mention his memory loss. The Doctor in this story fits these descriptions.


 * I am well aware that we don't allow speculation on this wiki. But I have also seen that we allow some common sense interpretations. This seems to me to be one of those cases. This Doctor is clearly not 1-7. It is either Eight or a future Doctor, but not the one written by Peter Anghelides, and Occam's razor would suggest we accept Eight instead of some other future Doctor. Shambala108 ☎  04:38, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we can satisfactorily address the height issue, I'm perfectly prepared to accept what you're saying here as adequate proof of Eight. It's a virtual trope of the Eight era in prose that he shows up, doesn't name himself, but is described as wearing a (usually green) velvet jacket (and maybe the cravat).  That's supposed to be your cue, as surely as "scarf", "celery", "bow tie", or "umbrella" would be enough to suggest other incarnations. I mean, really, if this story says "dark green velvet jacket" — that's pretty much the entirety of what is required to name the Eighth Doctor.  I understand MasterOfSpider's frustration with this — in most shots of the TVM, the jacket doesn't look green.  But, as I'll describe down thread, "green velvet" might as well be Eight's middle name, insofar as prose writers of the late 1990s and early 2000s were concerned.


 * However, in my mind, the height thing must be better explained. Occam's Razor would also suggest that someone who is at or just under average male height cannot be described as "tall" without good cause. 05:01: Wed 13 Feb 2013


 * Here's my logic:


 * Imagine that there's a short story (use your imagination on the title; The Telesnaps of Death; whatever) that has no directly identified Doctor. In the opening paraghraph it describes the man as "Tall, with a large brown fro, a long multi-coloured scarf, and a lengthy brown jackey."


 * Sure, the Sixth Doctor also had a large fro. Ten was rather tall. One wore a black-and-white scarf. Eleven is currently wearing a long brown coat. So why dies it have to be four? Because all of these factors together make it clear that it's him.


 * The same is true with Totem. Some of these descriptions separate could be anyone else. But when the Doctor is described as "young" with "hair [that] was long, brown and wavy," and "skin [that] was pale," while "wearing a coat of green velvet," "a simple white shirt", "grey trousers that looked to be of good quality", and "brown leather shoes"; then yeah; that's eight. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 04:54, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

But those are hypothetical examples. My point was that there is not enough description to mean it is logically the Eighth Doctor. yes, some of the description does indeed seem to suggest Eight. However, other descriptions show it can not possibly be him. It is wrong to simply cherry-pick certain text, while ignoring other text. Master of Spiders ☎  05:24, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * You haven't really given any descriptions to prove that this couldn't be eight. The tall thing is easily to shake off, and as Czech has noted below, your assment of his shirt, jacket, and eye colour is incorrect. There is much too much info suggesting that this is eight. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 05:33, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I have given several descriptions that do just that. If we simply "shake off" anything that doesn't fit, then why not make it Three? Tall? Check. Green velvet jacket? Check. Long hair? Check. Grey trousers? Check. Grey-blue eyes? Check. Memory loss? Check, in fact he's the Doctor most associated with memory loss. Handsome? Many would say so.That leaves "young", but the Senora is described as elderly, so relatively speaking a man in his early 50's would be young. e can "shake off" the brown hair thing, as Pertwee did indeed have brown hair before it started going grey.

NOTE: I am not saying it is Three here, just that using the same take-some, dismiss-some-out-of-hand logic that OttelSpy25 is using, we could make case for Three that is at least as strong as Eight. Same thing for Four in fact.... Master of Spiders ☎  07:49, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * The largest amount of doubt you could ever throw onto Pertwee's hair colour would be something like, "Immediately post regeneration he had salt and pepper hair, but then it settled into a shock of white hair." No reasonable interpretation of his hair, as seen under normal studio lighting (so, Spearhead doesn't count) would be that he had brown hair. Even by Inferno it's unmistakably at least grey — though in Spearhead there ain't nothin' but white peeking out from under his shower cap.  So please don't pretend that Three has brown hair. (Even if he did, it's not, reasonably speaking, wavy or curly in season 7, the only season that even slightly admits of your assertion.)


 * Also, old people aren't stupid, yanno. Unless you can prove that the elderly woman in this story is suffering from dementia, then you're going to have a hard time convincing me that they'd look at someone else with grey hair and call them a "young man".


 * Now, you've accused OS25 of "cherry picking" descriptive words. I'd like proof of that please.  Please provide every single descriptor of the Doctor in this story so that we can all independently assess whether cherry picking has indeed happened here.  01:43: Thu 14 Feb 2013

I did so, at the beginning of this talk page. While some do accurately describe the Eighth Doctor, others do not. The reasoning is that if go into this story thinking it's an Eighth Doctor story, you can find stuff that matches him...as well as other things that clearly do not. It is these other things that OttelSpy25 dismissed as "continuity errors", "typos", "not notable", and said that I was "feeble" and a bigot for noticing at all.

However, if you simply read this story without any preconceptions, you would be puzzled as to precisely which Doctor is being written about here. That is my point. Master of Spiders ☎  06:07, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Green jacket and general appearance
Every known 3D replica of Eight has him in a green jacket. Look at the maxi-bust. And this 5". And this Character Building mini.

Of course, these are non-narrative, and we know toymakers of the past did get colour schemes wrong. But would all of them be wrong? Everything ever put out in the 21st century? That seems awfully unlikely. The point of a replica is that it be a replica. Why sell something that is not representative of the character you're pushing?

Narrative proof is easy to find. To suggest that he doesn't wear a green, crushed velvet code is to cast a blind eye over a lot of narrative material that this wiki considers valid.

And how about the novels? I think we got just about everything there. Green. Velvet. White shirt. Curly hair. And Revan's already given you the low-down on the eye colour "thing" from the EDAs. Oh, yeah — you're trying to make some sort of distinction between a white shirt and a plain white shirt, aren't you? Check about half the DWM comics, as well as The Forgotten. He's definitely in a what most people would call a "plain" white shirt. Dunno where you're gettin' an idea about frills when I look at something like The Flood, Sins of the Fathers, or especially Uroboros.
 * The Taint
 * "Doctor?" She tugged on his long, bottle-green velvet coat.
 * The man's face crumpled into a sorrowful frown as he checked the pockets of hi dark-green velvet jacket.
 * He was dressed all fancy, wearing a long, green, velvet coat, waistcoat and grey trousers, and holding a funny-looking object.
 * Dominion
 * She’d not seen this incarnation before. He was by far the best-looking, and the best-dressed: dark-green velvet frock coat, patterned waistcoat and a white wing-collar shirt with a cravat neatly tucked into the waistcoat. A smooth, unruffled, timeless look. Much better than – hold on now. How could she be sure this handsome stranger was the Doctor? ‘Are you sure that’s him?’ she said, slipping into the chair next to Lindgard. ‘Oh, yes,’ said Lindgard. ‘That is certainly the Doctor.’
 * Interference - Book One
 * He was wearing his velvet jacket and his best green cravat, so he looked exactly the way he always looked ...
 * The Blue Angel
 * And, what’s more, a day ago, the Doctor arrives. In he swishes in his velvet coat, and starts interfering big time. Should have had him thrown in the brig.
 * ‘I feel very much the same,’ said the Doctor, coughing slightly in the sul- phurous fumes. He stared down at the ruined nap of his velvet frock coat ruefully.
 * Frontier Worlds
 * ‘Perhaps I should be going now,’ said the visitor, and tugged at the sleeves of his green velvet coat. ‘I’ve been here for nearly an hour.’
 * The newcomer was definitely the same man who he had seen on the roof security cameras that day, trying to prevent Dewfurth from leaping to his death on the rocks below. Now the velvet of his long, green jacket was rather tattered, and one sleeve was tearing away from the shoulder. The wing-collar shirt was filthy and bloodied, the scarf a mass of matted fibres.
 * Autumn Mist
 * ‘Winter!’ the Doctor exclaimed. ‘Excellent! Crisp snow, clear air, hot toddies ...’ As he enthused about winter wonders, he went over to retrieve a dark green velvet frock coat from a nearby stand. His sonic screwdriver and a few other oddments were on a table nearby, and he dropped them into the pockets, then looked down at his shoes.
 * He certainly wasn’t a soldier and wore a dark-green, velvet frock coat, which, along with the curls of his shoulder-length hair, made him look like some wild outlandish figure.

Anyway, I take it we're all agreed that I've cited only adventures that unambiguously star Eight. And they repeatedly refute your objections, MasterOfSpiders.

So, in the face of this fairly overwhelming narrative evidence, MasterOfSpiders, would you like to retract the bulk of your earlier objections?


 * Not at all. because it is not overwhelming narrative evidence at all. As I have outlined elsewhere on this page. Master of Spiders ☎  07:51, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Please describe for me, in detail, how it is not overwhelming narrative evidence. I see nothing upthread that refutes the specific textual descriptions I've given here, nor addresses why he would consistently be depicted in green on merchandising, nor explains why he's in green in just about every comic preview of an audio story.  Do you need more quotes from novels, cause I could literally spend an entire day listing for you the number of times he is described as wearing "green" or "velvet" or "green velvet" or a "white shirt" or has "curly hair" or whatever.  19:52: Wed 13 Feb 2013

It's all listed upthread. Again, if you go into the story with the idea that it's an Eight story, you can recognise stuff that suggests it's him. There are other things which OS25 dismissed as "typos", "continuity errors" etc. If a reader goes in with no idea who or what the story is about, they will not be certain from the narrative which Doctor it is. Master of Spiders ☎  06:10, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I used the term "continuity eror" once to describe the unimportant factors of the Eighth Doctor's eye colour or height. Both have been cleared now.


 * Oh, and when I said "typos" I was refering to your spelling, not the texts. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 06:18, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

When you used the word "typo" you were referring to a quoted piece of text, not my spelling. You have made personal insults, you have dismissed quoted narrative text, by saying that you're "not even gonna read that", you have lied about what text says, and you have gone back and changed posts later to try and act as though you were taking a different position.

Nothing has been cleared. And again, by dismissing what it actually says in the text as "unimportant" is part of my whole point. Master of Spiders ☎  07:14, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Height
Here, I think, MasterOfSpiders has a point. Are the other people in the story 3' tall or something? Is this description coming from another character (in which case it's merely opinion), or is it coming from an omniscient narrator? If the latter, then you must reasonably say that this Doctor is not McGann nor any other known televised Doctor, and we might want to avail ourselves of Tybort's The Doctor (Totem) option. Cause I've never heard of a 5'7" dude being described as tall.
 * Well, first off, I don't think that we should decide that this isn't 8 or something because "8 wasn't tall..."
 * If I understand correctly, the story is written from the first point of veiw of one of the spanish citizens. Thus, it's understandable if he might consider something "tall" when we don't. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 04:26, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm 5'2", one of my sons is 5'7", and I consider that tall. So it does happen. Even a man of 5 1/2 feet height is considered tall to a short woman. Shambala108 ☎  04:31, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, I'm looking for hard narrative evidence. What is the precise context of the "tall" comment?   04:50: Wed 13 Feb 2013
 * I don't know, Master of Spiders brought it up, but I'll look it up. Shambala108 ☎  04:56, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Here you go, from the first page, when he arrives at Senora's door: "She'd stared at him, a tall handsome man..."
 * This story is told, not in third-person omniscient, but third person limited, from Senora's point of view. Shambala108 ☎  05:04, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * The entire description is this:
 * "a tall handsome man"
 * I think "tall handsome man" is alot more undefinable than just "tall man". A 5 foot 5 guy can be "a tall handsome man". There's no issue with McGann being one. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 05:07, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what do we know about this Señora? Is she described in any way as short herself, so that we can understand why she'd find 5'7" tall?  05:45: Wed 13 Feb 2013
 * So what would your definition of "short" be for her? Because the story doesn't give her height.
 * Can I just point out that while we know Paul McGann is 5'7", we don't know that Eight is, unless someone has measured him in universe. There are examples in film and television where a character is portrayed as shorter or taller than the actor who portrays him. Shambala108 ☎  05:50, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

There are various images on this page that show him to be short. Scroll up. Master of Spiders ☎  07:53, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually my comments were for Czechout, sorry for the confusion. Shambala108 ☎  20:18, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, I'm gonna agree with Master of Spiders on this one. We know he's short simply because we watched the TVM, frankly. He's tiny next to Eric Roberts.  Heck, he's maybe one inch taller than Ashbrook.  Shorter than Wagg, the Motorcycle Policeman, Pete (which we know from the two-shot Pete and Grace have) and most of the guests at the institute.  20:10: Wed 13 Feb 2013
 * Then what is this wiki's definition of tall? Does it have to be 6'0"? Or can it be someone who is 5'11"? Don't we need some kind of standard here? Thanks, Shambala108 ☎  20:18, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

May I note again that he is described as
 * "a tall handsome man"

Not just a "tall man"? Calling someone "tall" basically means just that, but saying that they're "a tall handsome man" bascially means that they're attractive.

Also note again that this story is written from the perspective of a foreign cleaning lady. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 21:10, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * sorry for posting up here, but there is nothing at all to suggest that the woman is "a foreign cleaning lady". In fact it's made perfectly clear that she's a farmer, or at least a farmer's wife/widow. It is a long walk into the nearest town. Where does OS25 get "foreign cleaning lady" from? And on her own farm, she wouldn't be "foreign" at all.Master of Spiders ☎  07:20, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Clearly there is no "wiki definition of tall", Shambala — amusing though that idea is :) I'm just trying to figure out whether Eight has ever been portrayed as tall otherwise, because that's not evident — or even debatable — in the TVM. He is demonstrably "average", not tall.


 * And OS25, I fail to see your (fairly sexist and racist) point at all.  21:19: Wed 13 Feb 2013


 * Hey, I'm 6'5, so let me assure you that when a woman wants "a tall and handsome man," that she probably doesn't want a man who's actually tall at all... OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 06:22, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Who said she "wanted" The Doctor at all? All it says is that when she sees him, his height is immediately notable, and noteworthy. You have already made a n unsubstantiated claim about her being "a foreign cleaning lady", you have made personal insults against other posters(me), you have dismissed quoted narrative as "feeble", "continuity error", "typo", "not notable". You have lied about what certain text says. Also, please post new comments at the bottom. Master of Spiders ☎  07:20, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * OS25 is trying to make the same point I made, that a woman could see a 5'7" man as tall, especially if she saw him as handsome. And I don't really enjoy the idea of going through all of Eight's stories to see if he's portrayed as tall. I just don't think this one subjective word is enough to derail the rest of the evidence which you yourself have accepted. Shambala108 ☎  21:28, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Michael J. Fox is clearly an attractive guy. But amongst the superlatives that would be used to characterise his good looks, would tall ever be amongst them?  I honestly can't see it — and MJF is only 3" shorter than McGann.   22:20: Wed 13 Feb 2013


 * Got it! Terrance Dicks himself repeatedly calls Eight "tall" in The Eight Doctors.

'You're not worried by the presence of a witness?'

The Third Doctor nodded towards the tall, long-haired young man at his side.

The Master gave the stranger a scornful look. 'One of your human assistants, Doctor?'

'He isn't an assistant, exactly - and he isn't human either. Look again! Open your mind.'

The Master studied the tall young man. Their minds touched, and the Master's eyes widened in shock.

'They would never permit it. It isn't possible!'

'Oh but it is!' said the Doctor. 'Hardly fair is it, two against one?' For a moment the Master's concentration wavered as he grappled with the concept of two Doctors present in the same time zone.
 * We're done here. This story does, as far as I can tell, identify the Eighth Doctor in ways that can be seen in other stories, so Occam's Razor does indeed apply. I might argue that the "tall" thing should be mentioned in the story notes as "odd" given the fact that McGann as the Eighth Doctor is not tall, but obviously average. But whatever. One of the biggest arguments on the page was, "Is this the Eighth Doctor?", and I think that we can safely say that the author gave us nothing inconsistent with other descriptions and images.  More importantly, the author did not contradict the image drawn in the first major work of original Eighth Doctor prose.  If the author made a mistake versus the TVM, well, others did, too.  22:54: Wed 13 Feb 2013


 * Wait... Didn't The Dying Days technically come out first?


 * Kidding, I'm kidding! Glad that this discussion is nearly over or just it... OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 23:50, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * You're right of course. I meant to say "first of the range".  01:10: Thu 14 Feb 2013