Howling:The year that never was and davros reality bomb

I was just wondering about the very famous plothole in last of the timelords, why didn't the year that never was coincide with the reality bomb. There has been alot said about this, and I think the most likely is that the end of the lost year happened just before the stealing of the earth. I.E had time not been reversed then the Daleks would have snatched the earth and the plan would have gone ahead, a week later. However this still does not explain alot of other things, for instance, why didn't rose help out Martha. Rose was meant to have been appearing for like a year before Stolen earth/Journey's end so she should have been around during the lost year, the end of the lost year is still no matter what you say near to the stealing of the earth so why wasn't she around to help out with that big gun of hers. I'd like to know your opinions on this and also what you guys think would have happened if time hadn't been reversed and the the master ruled earth had been snatched by the Daleks, pretty interesting thought eh. Winehousefan 00:50 May 10 2010 [UTC]

Because back then, there never was a Dalek invasion the following year- that was a new thing. Back then, in the perspective of the Doctor's timeline, Davros hadn't been resurrected to try to destroy all of reality. After the year was reversed back, and time went on from the Doctor's personal perspective, now there was an oncoming Dalek invasion. Say the Doctor visited the date of the Dalek invasion much earlier in this series, there would be no invasion- because there never was an invasion until the Doctor's actions lead to it from his own perspective. Time doesn't work how you think it does in the Whoniverse. Like I said, back during the Master's reign, history never had the Dale invasion until Dalek can resurrected Davros and targeted that date, creating a new event in history. Delton Menace 05:21, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Winehousefan, as the comment says, put your content under the header, not over it. (I moved it for you.)


 * Meanwhile, I agree with what Delton Menace said. Changing history really does change history, and those changes come in some sort of sequence. First the Master screwed with history, then the Doctor undid that, then Caan screwed with history. So, even if the year overlaps as far as normal time, the timelines don't overlap. (It's a little more complicated than that because different characters can have different timelines, but that turns out not to matter in this case--and besides, I'm trying to explain all this without getting into metatime and worldsheets and all the other stuff that seems to confuse people more than it helps.:))


 * The reason Rose didn't help Martha is that it was Caan's actions that led to the stars going out in her universe that led to her crossing over to our universe; before that had happened, she had no reason to risk damaging the universes by crossing over, so she wasn't here to help Martha.


 * But that still leaves your final big question unanswered. If the Master had beaten the Doctor, then it would have to be just as you suggest. Caan was already attempting to break into the Time War and rescue Davros even without any of the events of season 4, so The Stolen Earth would have gone exactly the same way, except that the Master would have been ruler of the Earth at the time it was stolen, and the Doctor wouldn't have been outside of events and therefore able to swoop in and save things. So, the Master would have to fight the Daleks.


 * Who would win? Well, it probably depends on the exact dates.


 * If it's late enough, the Master has a fleet of ships ready to conquer the entire universe; a rag-tag band of Daleks couldn't stop him. When the Master writes the history books, the glorious Battle of the Medusa Cascade will go down as the first victory in the War of the New Time Lord Empire (with ample space given to the fact that he crushed the Daleks where the original Empire on Gallifrey failed). And all that juicy Dalek tech would probably just make him even more unbeatable.


 * But if he's not ready for launch, all the Daleks have to do is knock out the Archangel satellites and wait for the people of Earth to revolt against the Master, then swoop in during the chaos, exterminate all resistance, and capture the Master. Then they set off their bomb and boom, no more reality. And the poor Master's last thought before he ceases to exist is, "Damn, I wish I could have done that instead of Davros."


 * Either way, it could be fun to watch as a sort of alternate-history "what-if" story. --Falcotron 06:19, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Right thanks for your opinions, though I have to say I do think that the Daleks and Davros would win no matter what,for the following reasons, The masters main headquarters were the valiant it got blown to pieces at the begining of the stolen earth so the black hole converters wouldn't really be any use. Plus the master can be a bit of a coward, he fled to the end of the universe when he had the full backing of the time lords from the daleks, and the Daleks in stolen earth were not just a small group they were really powerful. Still I love the idea that it would be the master who would take the doctor and his companions place as the saviours of creation, that fact would really piss off the Doctor, imagine if he reversed time after the master beat the Daleks, then he'd know he might be creating a timeline when the Dalek invasion could be successful. Winehousefan 09:00 May 10, 2010[UTC]


 * Well, with the entire planet converted into a military factory, I think it would be a little harder to knock out the Valiant. After all, he may not be expecting to run into the Daleks, but if he's planning to conquer the universe, he's got other people to deal with who are almost as tough as them, some of whom have star-spanning empires.


 * But I didn't even think of the Doctor's reaction--you're right, that makes it even better. Martha's plan is about to succeed, when the Daleks grab the Earth. Everyone starts thinking "Doctor, Doctor," but then the saucers come down and we're at war. So, the Doctor is freed, but only partially restored. He and Martha sneak off in the confusion of the war and meet up with Jack and figure out how to reverse time--and then the Master shows up and explains everything. "I just fought off a Dalek invasion fleet. Heavy loss of life, a billion or so dead, but we won. No more Daleks, anywhere in the universe. Also stopped their Reality Bomb. But don't let me stop you, go ahead and undo the last year." "Reality bomb?" "Oh, no big deal. If I hadn't stopped him, Davros would have set off a bomb that would have destroyed all of reality, here and in every parallel universe, across all of time, except inside their Crucible. He'll probably succeed if you erase the past year of history. But I know how important these humans are to you, a year of their freedom is probably worth it to you even if it means losing all of reality a year later, right? So, let me show you to that switch that'll undo the last year."


 * And one more thought: Instead of Caan's speech about the Doctor's "Children of Time" and Davros's speech about all the people who have died for the Doctor, the Master could give _them_ a speech about his "Children of Death" and brag to Davros about all the people who have died for him. "And one last thing. I am the Master, and you will not even have a chance to obey me, because I'm going to kill you all now." --Falcotron 09:21, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Davros, the Doctor was right. You could have been amazing. But you're not me. NO-ONE is like me. I wonder... there, in the first year of the Time War... as the Nightmare Child engulfed your vision and the Vortex closed around you... Did you hear it, Davros? The never-ending drums? The call to the war you started?"
 * "Davros, the Doctor was right. You could have been amazing. But you're not me. NO-ONE is like me. I wonder... there, in the first year of the Time War... as the Nightmare Child engulfed your vision and the Vortex closed around you... Did you hear it, Davros? The never-ending drums? The call to the war you started?"
 * "Davros, the Doctor was right. You could have been amazing. But you're not me. NO-ONE is like me. I wonder... there, in the first year of the Time War... as the Nightmare Child engulfed your vision and the Vortex closed around you... Did you hear it, Davros? The never-ending drums? The call to the war you started?"




 * I want credit if that line is ever used in a fanfic ;) Cannon881 13:28, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * All right lot's of cool theories and scenes developing here, keep em coming, I was thinking that maybe the master wouldn't keep the doctor as a small shrivelled creature in a bird cage, because cowardly and utterly crazy he may be, he is not stupid and might think it would be a good idea to have the doctor fight the daleks. Maybe the master would do an end of time type bit of bravery against the daleks, wouldn't that be cool they've stopped them and then the master goes out like the end of time saving the doctor from them. Winehousefan:15:49 May 10, 2010 [UTC]

But wouldn't the Master still have a link to the Time Lords in his head? What would happen if the Master came across the Immortality Gate during the Dalek Invasion in The Year That Never Was? It seems like the Master was predestined to turn everyone into the Master Race, because that was the Time Lords' plan all along. So, if the Master (and Earth) is threatened with extermination by the Daleks, it could be that "fate" would lead the Master into creating the Master Race, because otherwise the reason for his existence (the drums) would never have existed (since the Time Lord plan required his linking with them).

To prevent this Master paradox, it seems like the events of three finales would have to occur. It would be the Master, Toclafane and the Master Race vs Davros and the Daleks vs. the Time Lords vs. possibly the Doctor. Could even the Doctor stop a takeover of the universe combined with two threats to reality? This, right here, is the story that RTD wishes he could write.Ladon 22:49, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * In the Year That Never Was, after the Master conquered Earth, he captured Jack, and sent the rest of Torchwood 3 in a wild goose chase in the Himalayas. He didn't seem to show much interest in raiding Torchwood 3 (at least there's no talk about him having or wanting access to any salvaged alien artifacts). And I doubt Naismith or anyone like him would be in position to loot Torchwood. So, nobody ever finds the Gate, and there's no Master Race.


 * But it's unlikely the Time Lords were looking specifically for the Master Race, or a particular date, because how would they even know to look for that? Maybe they were just looking for the Master's greatest triumph--either right after his defeat of Davros, or at the launch of his invasion of the universe. The showdown would take place on the Valiant, with Martha and Jack instead of Wilf, and with the Doctor as the Master's captive. Maybe he'd use the Archangel Network together with his telepathic/hypnotic power to get the whole world thinking "Doctor Doctor Doctor" and power up the Doctor to stop Rassilon. Whatever happened, it _could_ lead to the Doctor also defeating the Master, or to the Doctor reversing time, but there's no real reason it would have to, and no reason a regeneration would necessarily happen either.


 * So, you still get the main event of all three finales, but they all play out very differently. --Falcotron 01:03, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I just assumed that the Master Race was necessary for the triangulation of the source of the signal in the Master. I guess all that would be needed was a high(er)-powered Master. He seemed to be the key to releasing the Time Lords. Ladon 04:04, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's kind of hard to guess what they were actually homing in on. But I'd say it would be something like, "the most Master-y location in all of spacetime post-LGTW". If the Master Race exists, the would probably be the original Master at that time. But if the Master Race doesn't exist, what would it be? I think the Master gloating to the Doctor over his defeat of Davros and/or his launch of the New Time Lord Empire would probably be as Master-y as anything ever gets.


 * But that's really just a guess. Hell, maybe, after taking over the universe, the Master would build a massive Immortality Gate and turn everyone in the universe into him. If so, they probably wouldn't show up until then--at which point he could probably easily use the Mega-Gate to turn them (and all the other stuff that flies out of the time-lock--Daleks, Nightmare Child, whatever) into him.... The Master wins, completely and totally, forever. Until he gets bored, that is. --Falcotron 05:24, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * ok, i thought i'd clarify something to do with this topic. 1. Caan used ETS BEFORE the Year that Never Was, considering he used it in 1930, before 2008 and was in an earlier episode -.-. 2. The reason Rose wasnt there can simply be explained by she never visited that Universe to find the Doctor. Considering there is an infinite number of them, it seem pretty unlikely that she visited there in the first place, she only went to Donna's world to help her warn the Doctor about the stars going out and the Daleks. 3. Plus the fact the Reality bomb never actually happened sorta helps my theory of the Univervse of TYTNW being there :D Ooiue 06:47, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * ok, i thought i'd clarify something to do with this topic. 1. Caan used ETS BEFORE the Year that Never Was, considering he used it in 1930, before 2008 and was in an earlier episode -.-. 2. The reason Rose wasnt there can simply be explained by she never visited that Universe to find the Doctor. Considering there is an infinite number of them, it seem pretty unlikely that she visited there in the first place, she only went to Donna's world to help her warn the Doctor about the stars going out and the Daleks. 3. Plus the fact the Reality bomb never actually happened sorta helps my theory of the Univervse of TYTNW being there :D Ooiue 06:47, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, that's the point. Not that it was 1930, but that it was earlier in Caan's timeline. In the show as we saw it, The Stolen Earth happened months after TYTNW was undone. So, if TYTNW hadn't been undone, the most obvious thing is that it would happen the same number of months into that year. --Falcotron 07:33, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * that is the next thing i would have said XD. good point as well, as it is also very true Ooiue 15:59, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay excellent ideas here guys, I never even thought about that end of time thing, god what a melee that would be Daleks , Master race Time lords the doctor davros the master, lets try and figure out a way to get the cybermen in there too. One thought however in regards to the end of time, maybe the master wouldn't have to create the master race in order to be driven mental. As the paradox machine held the incorrect timeline in place like the toclafane killing their ancestors, then it could probably enable the master to exist as he was without the time lords. I dont think the paradox machine would cancel out the daleks as they had already been moved down to one by the end of evolution of the daleks. winehousefan 09:16 May 12 2010[UTC]
 * I just had another thought about that whole rose thing, now what you guys have said is true about how why rose shouldn't be there before, but the only thing is according to turn left rose has been appearing in our world since the runaway bride. Now i know what some people have said Donna's world is different thats why rose should be there, but donna's actions don't really change when rose should arrive so you can take it that rose should have been there, as its not like rose mentions she's here really really early, when she say's this wrong she obviously meant that the doctor is dead. So if rose has been appearing in our universe since the runaway bride then she should have been thereduring the year that never was as that happened a good few months after the runaway bride. Winehousefan 11:50 May 12,2010 [UTC]
 * I think that Rose saw that it was in Donna's World where all the timelines converged: Donna NEEDED to be with the Doctor. She went to Donna's World and that timeline alone, because that was the one which needed to be "fixed". My opinion! Cannon881 16:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay that makes sense, she would go into that timeline at that point because it was screwing with all the other timelines. Though there is still so much more of Donna's world that dosen't make sense, like why are the stars going out when the earth wasn't moved and various other things, I think i will start up a Donna's world forum. One last thought about the whole master end of time thing, I dont think the master would actually have to use the immortality gate to get the link in his head as the time lords put it there because they saw the whole master race thing, but the master changed history with the year that never was, he was changing history of the universe in a way that probably not even the time lords could have seen and so they still would have stuck the link in his head, but he just wouldn't have bothered to free them now. He already had the toclafane so he might not even want to do the master race thing. Also as I said before the paradox machine would probably hold this in place as it held the toclafane who were killing their ancestors. Winehousefan 18:30 May 12, 2010 [UTC]
 * I still think the Master Race would be needed to bring the Time Lords back, because the link was set up when every Master on Earth started listening, so they could triangulate and locate the source of the drumming. If I understand correctly, the Master has always had the link, so no matter what he did to a universe's timeline, he'd have to bring back the Time Lords. Otherwise a loop in time would be broken, because without the link, no drumming, then no crazy Master, meaning no plot like we know it.Ladon 00:00, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still think the Master Race would be needed to bring the Time Lords back, because the link was set up when every Master on Earth started listening, so they could triangulate and locate the source of the drumming. If I understand correctly, the Master has always had the link, so no matter what he did to a universe's timeline, he'd have to bring back the Time Lords. Otherwise a loop in time would be broken, because without the link, no drumming, then no crazy Master, meaning no plot like we know it.Ladon 00:00, May 14, 2010 (UTC)