Talk:River Song

is river the Little girl?
I don't think the little girl in the astronaut suit from Day of the Moon should be included in this article, as we do not know for sure that it is herLord Aro 20:23, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Completely agreed. Nothing says that the little girl is River. For all we know the little girl is River and the Doctor's child, hence why she's seen that cot before... and why he then knew they would be kissing. Nothing at all says that River is the child, or that Madam Kovarian was working with the Silence. --The Thirteenth Doctor 20:38, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * The flashback where the Doctor was piecing things together stated that the girl was River, well Melody it was at the time. --Revan\Talk 20:39, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * But that's the thing... we don't know it is. All we know is that the little girl is part Time Lord... not that she is definitely River... we're still presuming that the little girl is Melody... --The Thirteenth Doctor 21:42, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case any mention of the he little girl should be removed as it is just speculation until confirmed otherwise - we should only be detailing the confirmed facts.95.145.220.97 00:11, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Would someone mind explaining the fact that in the little girl's room, among pictures of her, was a picture of Amy holding Melody/River? Because it's her. Would anyone also mind explaining why whenever discussing Melody, there were flashbacks to the little girl? What about the reference to Melody/River being able to possibly regenerate? Or how it was stated that the little girl was a human, and yet we saw her regenerate? Human plus Time Lord. For crying out loud, the little girl is Melody/River, how more obvious could it get? Why, among there her pictures, would she have a picture of Amy holding Melody/River? Why flashback to the girl when talking about Melody/River? Some people are so stubborn. 90.199.247.156 03:45, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Would someone mind explaining the fact that in the little girl's room, among pictures of her, was a picture of Amy holding Melody/River? Because it's her. Would anyone also mind explaining why whenever discussing Melody, there were flashbacks to the little girl? What about the reference to Melody/River being able to possibly regenerate? Or how it was stated that the little girl was a human, and yet we saw her regenerate? Human plus Time Lord. For crying out loud, the little girl is Melody/River, how more obvious could it get? Why, among there her pictures, would she have a picture of Amy holding Melody/River? Why flashback to the girl when talking about Melody/River? Some people are so stubborn. 90.199.247.156 03:45, June 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've got a picture of my grandmother holding my father as a baby. Does that actually mean my grandmother is actually my mother? I don't think so. Why were the flashbacks related to her? Because that's what the Doctor was thinking... not what was true... and like the Doctor said.... it's possible she could regenerate... not definite. It's entirely possible that the little girl is the Doctor and River's child... nothing has been concretely said that it is her. If you can just go with the implication that the little girl is River... I want it also stated on the page that the Doctor and River are lovers... cause that's been implied as well. --The Thirteenth Doctor 12:12, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I totally agree that the little girl is Melody/River. It would be absurd for her not to be. It is true that some are stubborn. Perhaps there is some merit in being "sure of the facts" but I think we are as sure as we can be. In the event that a blinder is pulled, the facts can always been changed. Perhaps a solution would be to say that it very much appears to be the case that the little girl is River, for the reasons explained by the person two paragrapshs above me. But we all know the internet...
 * Just because when The Doctor was piecing together little bits of information regarding Melody and thinking about the little girl does not make them the same person - its just where his mind and ours have gone, due to all the facts that are available - you have to remember, The Doctor doesn't the little girl regenerated only the homeless man knows that - and he wont know for sure what was going on. The question was "could she regenrated" the doctor thought and replied "maybe" I dont see that as confirmation that they are the same! Those flash backs were for our, the viewers interests, probably to make us think the little girl is indeed River. Is she, well who knows? So far we are led to beleive so, but until we have confirmation we can't be sure - who knows - the the little girl could be a child of Rivers and the Doctors - its not uncommon for there to be pictures of a grandparent holding a grand child - and we have as much fact to say this is the case too! Also, did anyone watch confidential? Im fairly sure that Moffat mentioned something in the episode about "who is the little girl?" this makes me think there might be more to it that "she is a younger River Song" - but hey who knows? just be patient guys - if you are indeed right, it will get put in 95.145.221.134 01:53, June 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's quite an absurd suggestion that the show's creators would use flashbacks as a narrative device to tell us that the girl is Melody, and then, four months (or more) after the fact, use a 'gotcha' reveal that there are in fact two abducted-by-hostile-forces-childhood-connection-to-Amy-time-lady girls running around. I would have great difficulty coming up with such an example of poor story telling in any modern TV show.
 * I agree that some degree of skepticism should be employed and speculation avoided, but there are limits. We can't write articles to accommodate all possible outlandish theories; we have to go with what we have been shown.--BBCXI 22:39, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * While I agree, that it does sound far fetched that there will be two abducted-by-hostile-forces-childhood-connection-to-Amy-time-lady girls running around and the little girl will probably turn out to be River - the fact remains nowhere has it been confirmed that they are indeed the same person, people are arguing the flashbacks are good enoughevidence. But they really are not. The Wikia doesnt deal with speculation, just fact and until there has been confirmation, actual spoken confirmation - it will only ever be speculation that they are indeed the same and as such should be left from the article....
 * The same thing happened last year, with the aparent continuity error with the Doctors Jacket in the forest - it was quite clearly a future Doctor, however until actual proof came in the last episode it couldn't be put in its respected article80.193.71.144 10:03, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeesh! Think about! Why would the Doctor have a flashback to the little girl in America and River's discription of her, hmm? This means that the little girl IS River, making it a completely logical reason to merge her page into River's. There can;t be another person with Time Lord DNA besides her and the full Time Lord Doctor. Forgetful 10th doctor fan 19:59, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish! The Doctor did not have the Flashback! He didn't even see the girl regenerate and correct me if I am wrong, but no where has it been stated Melody/River could. Just that it was possible. The flashback was for our purpose..As stated to make us think they are the same and in all honesty it looks to be working - as I have said before I think River and The Little girl will probably be the same person, however it can't beput in the article, we don't have the confirmation and they have about the same ammount of chance to be different people. 95.145.221.134 22:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeesh! Think about! Why would the Doctor have a flashback to the little girl in America and River's discription of her, hmm? This means that the little girl IS River, making it a completely logical reason to merge her page into River's. There can;t be another person with Time Lord DNA besides her and the full Time Lord Doctor. Forgetful 10th doctor fan 19:59, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish! The Doctor did not have the Flashback! He didn't even see the girl regenerate and correct me if I am wrong, but no where has it been stated Melody/River could. Just that it was possible. The flashback was for our purpose..As stated to make us think they are the same and in all honesty it looks to be working - as I have said before I think River and The Little girl will probably be the same person, however it can't beput in the article, we don't have the confirmation and they have about the same ammount of chance to be different people. 95.145.221.134 22:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * You've highlighted the exact problem, that you have to "think about it". Until there is explicit proof (which we currently do not have beyond supposition from a flashback), it's speculation. d ● ● ●  20:07, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not the same as the Doctor's jacket. That was a small teaser inserted for the eagle eyed viewer, and even though it seemed like a future Doctor, we could not be sure. What did seem obvious was that it was put there for our amusement and theorising. Moffat wanted us to debate it. He wanted it to be controversial The issue of the Little Girl has been put beyond reasonable speculation now. The links are clear. To anyone with an iota of logic, we're not supposed to be left in doubt. After all, to pull the rug on us now and say that the girl isn't River would just be illogical and detract from the story. By refusing to sanction a merger, all that is being achieved is an exercise in pedanticism.JoelJoel321 21:30, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * No - this is the same thing as The Doctors Jacket. countless people argued it was too much to be a continuity error and as you put it "a small teaser for the eagle eyes viewer" did it get put in? Yes! but only after we had confirmation at the end of the series. My point was while there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest the girl and river are one and the same - theres no actual confirmation and until we get it. It can not go in 95.145.221.134 22:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is all the evidence we have to them been the same person:
 * 1 They are both time ladies and could regenerate (it was never confirmed River could).
 * 2 The picture in the girls room of Amy holding a baby.
 * 3 The flashback the doctor had.
 * It is not beyond the limits of belief to have Moffet lead us down the wrong route and the Doctor has less proof they are the same person than we have.
 * Also having two young Time Ladies is not impossible. What could be better than useing one Time Lady as a weapon? How about two.
 * As for the picture, I have just realised its biggest oddity of WHEN could it have been taken? Korvain took Melody of Amy before she had a chance to take it and there was no time after getting the flesh copy. --82.11.57.232 19:55, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * ...Amy had Melody for a month after her birth and before Korvain took her. Plenty of time for a quick photo. -- Bold  Clone  20:11, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the thought occurred to me this week. There are all those pictures of the little girl in the little girl's room. Does anyone keep a picture of herself among her keepsakes?. Boblipton 16:07, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the thought occurred to me this week. There are all those pictures of the little girl in the little girl's room. Does anyone keep a picture of herself among her keepsakes?. Boblipton 16:07, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the thought occurred to me this week. There are all those pictures of the little girl in the little girl's room. Does anyone keep a picture of herself among her keepsakes?. Boblipton 16:07, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

Sydney Wade
It's not yet definitely confirmed that the Little Girl is River. Sydney Wade should be removed from the infobox. - Sikon 07:26, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Done Skittles the hog-- Talk 10:41, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

The little girl is obviously her! The Doctor SAID it! The little girl REGENERATED! MELODY WAS A TIME LORD! Jeez. - User:BillyWilliam3rd 20:12, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe. Another hypothesis is that she is the daughter of the Doctor and River -- River was nauseated during THE IMPOSSIBLE ASTRONAUT. Speculation is one thing, but proof is another. Boblipton 11:19, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, to the previous guy, ARE YOU A MORON!? It;s obviosuly River we see in the opening two parter! Why else would there be a "near-human" little girl in the story if its not her!? (173.167.179.77 22:12, August 22, 2011 (UTC))


 * Cut the attitude, or I might block you. There is not an in-universe source that says the Little Girl in TIA/TDOTM is River, that's is yet to be confirmed. If you want to believe that it's River, that's fine, but we as a wiki need to wait until we have a solid statement. MM/ Want to talk? 22:26, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe I'm a moron, but of course, none of us do, and any of us could be mistaken. To answer your second question, the little girl could be a 'red herring', intended to lead the viewer to an incorrect conclusion. Boblipton 22:24, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

Human Plus
We know that biologically speaking, River is essentially human. What's more, they seem to suggest that Melody was not a proper Time Lady, but rather she was born with the ability to regenerate. I would suggest removing Time Lady from her species information and either leaving her as just human, or creating a new article for the species "Human Plus". Witoki 22:50, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

I agree! We dont actually know she has the ability to regenrate - the episode didnt confirm she could regenerate, just that it was possible. The episode then showed the little girl regenerating, however thats not what the Doctor was thinking at the time as he doesnt know that actually happened 80.193.71.144 10:06, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact, until we have confirmation that River is the Little Girl from TIA/DooM, there's no reason to list "Time Lady" at all. Witoki 17:54, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't just ignore the Time Lady part, we need to add: human (with some Time Lord DNA) or similar. --Revan\Talk 18:02, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * But it isn't Time Lord DNA, it's vortex-altered Human DNA (hence the "Human Plus" term). Witoki 18:05, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * It was said in the episode that the DNA had Time Lord patterns in it. --Revan\Talk 18:07, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Then it resembles Time Lord DNA, but that does not define it as actually being part Time Lord. Until we know for certain that she does carry the genetic traits of a Time Lord, we cannot suggest for sure that she is a Time Lady. We either need to see her regenerate (or confirm she was the Astronaut Girl) or have two hearts before we can make the claim, especially considering both her parents are human. Witoki 18:17, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, we don't know that she can complete a regeneration until we have some onscreen verification. We've all seen interrupted regenerations -- heck, there was one in the previous episode. Nonetheless, while we know that the little girl has the genetic capacity to release the energy associated with regeneration, we don't know, as yet if she can channel it into a regeneration. Mind you, I'm willing to take reasonable odds that it is regeneration we see occuring, but there's a difference between belief and knowledge. Boblipton 16:15, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, we don't know that she can complete a regeneration until we have some onscreen verification. We've all seen interrupted regenerations -- heck, there was one in the previous episode. Nonetheless, while we know that the little girl has the genetic capacity to release the energy associated with regeneration, we don't know, as yet if she can channel it into a regeneration. Mind you, I'm willing to take reasonable odds that it is regeneration we see occuring, but there's a difference between belief and knowledge. Boblipton 16:15, August 10, 2011 (UTC)

River's incarnations
I'm probably jumping the gun on this one, since I don't think this is confirmed, only incinuated. But River can regenerate, in fact we saw her regenerate at the end of Day of the Moon (though some might argue that wasn't confirmed, I'd argue they are wrong so it doesn't matter). So, should we have separate pages for her different incarnations? Okay, we've only seen two to date, First and Last River, (first being baby River, and the child in the suit played by Sydney Wade; and last played by Alex Kingston) and it's probably not a big deal to have them under one page. I'm just curious, if one of her earlier incarnations makes a major appearance, are we going to create a page for Second-to-Last River?

I'm just saying this because we have pages for each of the Doctor's incarnations, each of the Master's incarnations, each of Romana's incarnations. Why not for River's incarnations? But, like I said, I'm probably jumping the gun. I'm an impatiant man. - BlackWidower 00:52, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

It may be true, but Steven has fooled us before. Though if it is true (I'm betting it is. River has natural curly hair (obviously) so she must have regenerated. this may even explain how Jenny regenerated) we should make a new page for each regeneration. But the down to earth situation is we are a FACTUAL site. And as contributers, we need to provide those facts. and unfortunately, they are not facts untill aired or published. So please keep to information that has been approved by moffat himself - Landisnicholas 21:19, June 14 2011 (EST)

"And a last time"
My edit to soften the claim that River "would never kiss [the Doctor] again." after the events of Day of the Moon was undone without comment, so I'm posting it here for discussion. We know that River's adventures are generally so far in reverse order from the Doctor's, meaning he knows her less and less each time, so when he kisses her and reflects on their first kiss from his perspective ("First time for everything"), she says "And a last time."

It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that this statement means the character somehow knows that she will never kiss the Doctor again. In-universe, there is simply no way that she could know that. From the audience's perspective, we know at the very least that a future Doctor visits her just before the Library to say goodbye; no reason not to expect a kiss there.

I interpret the statement to be a general statement on her time with the Doctor slipping away as they progress through their generally "back to front" relationship. But we know it's not exactly back to front, so it doesn't make sense to say that this is the absolute last kiss. -BBCXI 00:10, July 9, 2011 (UTC)

From beginning to end.
Example: the Donna Noble page shows her original name to be as such and is later named Donna Temple-Noble.

So it would make sense for the character page to say "Melody Pond (later River Song)". And for River Song to be one of her aliases. So much more sense- making than leaving it as it is. (173.167.179.77 14:34, July 30, 2011 (UTC))

Very logical, and in many ways correct. However, until they start calling her "Melody" regularly on the show, it would perhaps be best to stick to 'River Song.' If we ever get to the stage where we have onscreen confirmation that she regenerates, we may wish to have separate articles for her various incarnations. However, we have had several Time Lords appear in different incarnations with just one article to cover all of them -- Borusa springs to mind. I think, in the end, it's a matter of convenience to have separate articles, lest they become too large. And then we can argue about whether she is Melody Pond or Meoldy Williams. Boblipton 16:22, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

i'm pretty sure the new episode made it pretty clear that she can regenerate...Dark |Shadow |Sword 07:06, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

The order River & The Doctor Meet
River said that they are meeting in the reverse order. We know the first time The Doctor meet her was the day she died. Which, using River's statement would imply that the last time she will see him is the day she is born.

We just say that. So this should mean that River is gone. But she isn't. So I'm confused. Confused Fan


 * I think "meeting in the wrong order" would be more precise, and I know the Doctor said that in "The Time of Angels". It seems to be somewhat reverse, but not completely. Did River actually say "reverse" order in an episode? Glimmer721 18:56, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Pictures
I think River may need a few more pictures on this page. Could someone please do that. Thanks 78.105.95.95 13:12, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

different incarnations pages
Maybe we should give each of River's incarnations a seperate page? I even made a template (just to show you what it'll be like, delete it if its unnecessary) DuduDoctor 20:26, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

Completely agree with you. I has been confirmed in Let's kill hitler that Rivers the astronaut/ girl in alley, So i think this should be made.


 * Definitely. I think we should do it. Rassilon of Old (Talk - Contribs) 04:30, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Just want to say...
Hey, I know the admins have to temporarily protect articles like these after big revalations/events, but an article about River's past incarnations (alike the doctor), should be added to this wiki. And also don't forget that 'The Girl' of america is now revealed to be River, because when Mels was regenerating, she said that the last time she regenerated she was in New York, alike 'The Girl.'

It should be advised that you instate this information where necessary (River Song article, as well as creating some new ones) ASAP. Thanks.

cascade11 (Not logged in)

Rivers ageing
In Lets Kill Hitler, River jokes that "I might take the age down a little bit, just gradually, to freak people out". The line is obviously leaning on the fourth wall about the fact that she is younger in Silence in the Library etc. but should it be added to the article? LoneWolf2056 21:25, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

Second Melody may not be Mels
The First Melody (if it even was the first) that regenerated in New York did so in the 1960s. Unless Mels, as a very young child, found some manner of time travel, there would be at least one more regeneration there.

Namely, we've got
 * Melody Pond
 * (Possible other regenerations)
 * Little Girl (possibly Melody #1)
 * Toddler in 60s New York
 * (Possible other regenerations)
 * Mels
 * River Song

d ● ● ●  02:40, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the evidence does seem to point towards Mels being (at least) Melody's third incarnation, River therefore being the fourth (and last). Adam 148 09:32, August 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Time Lords don't seem to age as rapidly as humans, though, as recently seen in The Impossible Astronaut; the future Doctor is 1103, yet looks just like his 900-year-old counterpart. Then again, Mels is seen aging just like Rory and Amy in Let's Kill Hitler.
 * Oh, let's see. First, that may be a matter of Gallifreyan Time Lords as opposed to Human-Plus Times Lords. We have seen Gallifreyan time lords get old and creaky between regenerations at a much slower rate and a Gallifreyan lifespan between regenerations may be a thousand years; when the Master used his Laser screwdriver on the Doctor we wound up in his 900s in that body. However, Melody is not a Gllifreyan and her lifespan between regenerations, barring accidents, may be a normal human half a century. Second, even if she had a 'Gallifreyan' lifespan, that says nothing about how long physical childhood lasts in a Time Lord. When we see a flashback of kids being taken to the Tempered Schism at age eight in.... was it "Last of the Time Lords"? they look to be eight. Boblipton 12:32, August 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Though it was shown in "Let's Kill Hitler" that Time Lords can choose how they age, with River deciding to become younger. Yes, it was tongue in cheek humor, but nevertheless, canon. Perhaps River/Melody simply suspended her aging process during her time in New York post-regeneration. 14:02, August 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have independently come to the same base conclusion as Witoki – that we have no evidence to support Girl = 1st; Mels = 2nd; River = 3rd. For one thing, the Little Girl was not regenerating for the first time – she gives the impression of having experience of regenerating... DBD 22:30, August 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have independently come to the same base conclusion as Witoki – that we have no evidence to support Girl = 1st; Mels = 2nd; River = 3rd. For one thing, the Little Girl was not regenerating for the first time – she gives the impression of having experience of regenerating... DBD 22:30, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

You forget something, where did Mels come from, 1969 America. How did she get to Leadworth 1990s? She didn't age really properly. She must have travelled to Leadworth (probably found and adopted, although we have no proof of that), and aged really, really slowly. She looked about eight, in her last incarnation. She would have been 50 by now. But no, she's was in her early 20's. Perhaps because she was Human Plus Time Lord she aged a bit quicker, but only slightly. So there, worry over. BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 16:02, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'm guessing when a Time Lord regenerates that their next body is similar in size to that of it's predecessor - An Adult body won't regenerate into a baby size body (or vice versa)...unless of course she had more control over her regenerations. It must be hard though keeping count of a Time Lord's age (since River is the child of The TARDIS, I guess she doesn't have to count)

Name Change
I propose a name change. River Song is the name she chose in her third incarnation, not her third and second. It should be renamed Melody, as this was her name throughout all her incarnations, including the first most likely, as she must have been known by this name, as we see a picture of her as a baby and her mother. We don't use the latest name they chose, as User:Revanvolatrelundar said. If that's true, will we rename the Master, "Harold Saxon"? Or "Master of All", as he said. Those are just aliases, and they were (most probably) only in one incarnation. So... I really think we ought to rename the page. BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 15:57, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * While more episodes use "River", Melody is a better umbrella title that applies to all three incarnations (including to an extent the archaeologist one). -- Tybort (talk page) 18:23, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but as with married characters, the latest name is the one that is used. Therefore, River Song should be the title of this article.-- 18:33, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

In Let's kill Hitler the Doctor keeps calling her River, not Melody, thats her most used name, the one she is know for. Gridcube 18:46, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'd just like to give my opinion about the name dilema. I think it should stay as River Song due to that being the alias she chooses to go by (paradox much from the gamma forests?) - just like what The Doctor and The Master did. Also I like the name "River Song"!

Category:Human etc.?
So, as Melody is human with a bit of Time Lord DNA, would it be inaccurate to place her under stuff like Category:Human companions and Category:Human archaeologists? -- Tybort (talk page) 18:19, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think you should put it under Time Lady (or Time Lord) Companions due to it now being rare one will ever be added to it - Her background fits that catagory anyway

Oh, I have no issue adding her to Time Lord-related categories like Time Lord companions (which is probably too small to really implement as a category, but that's neither here nor there). I'm just wondering if it's the right idea to add her to human ones on top of that. -- Tybort (talk page) 19:17, August 28, 2011 (UTC)