User:SOTO/Forum Archive/Help!/@comment-43874324-20200702151414/@comment-25472716-20200822213538

User:SOTO/Forum Archive/Help!/@comment-43874324-20200702151414/@comment-25472716-20200822213538 Hello all, Someone who frequently comes to the Wiki but doesn't often login and certainly leaves discussion alone... For once, I find that I think I have to raise a few words for thought.

The OP has raised a question of whether or not all of the pages related to discriminatory language should be removed. I understand that as a Wiki, some sort of balance has to be maintained as to detailing the Whoniverse and the nature of it. And I totally understand that... So, on that side, I wouldn't say that *all* pages on discriminatory language should disappear. That's a complicated matter, and one that should really be case-by-case. Especially since some terms like Queer have been notably and prominently reutilised in more positive manners, in real life and in the Whoniverse.

But I would argue that the two variations on the N-word should be dealt with in ways that don't require pages. I'm not gonna presume anything of anyone here racially - that would be ill presumption - but I'll make it clear here that I am a person of colour who has had these words directed at me.

I would say that there is a difference between acknowledging the existence of a horrible action (see: Domestic Violence & Gaslighting) and detailing the words & actions used. Additionally, the two terms are undoubtedly always used in a derogatory manner (within the Whoniverse). And unlike Wikipedia itself, where there is a significant need to detail a long history and occurrences of such horrible actions for reference purposes, we don't. The two pages I'm focusing on here are quite stubby.

Couldn't N****r's content (the two stories in which it's come up) be consolidated within the page for Racism - in a similar matter of how Paki and Terrorist are listed there in regards to Rosa? The material re. Blood and Hope could slip inbetween Thin Ice and Shakespeare Code. The Celestial Toymaker in-universe material could shift to the "Amongst Other Species" subheading, as it's indicative in-universe of the term being used in other realms like the Toymaker's. And the BtS Toymaker material could easily sit aside the notation of Alpha Centauri's B&WMS appearance, as suitable acknowledgement of change in views as time has progressed.

And for N***o's content as well. Lost in Time's usage of the term is already notated within the Racism page. Amending the line "Yasmin Khan was mistakenly perceived as Mexican in a Montgomery diner so was denied service." on said page would allow for the usage in Rosa to be covered too.

I would imagine if anyone wanted to use this Wiki to reference usage of racist terminology, then the Racism page would probably already be on their list of pages to review/read - so wouldn't preserving the info on these two pages there allow for just as easy accessibility?

Aside from the above, I'd also like to indicate my agreement with the proposal of adding trigger warnings - both in terms of the two N-word pages, if my own proposal is deemed unsuitable... and in terms of the Wiki in wider scope - at least for pages where the presence of potentially triggering content is not apparent from the page title. Dodo Chaplet is the noted one & I can see exactly why. The fact that a TV companion's page - which is sure to get some notable amount of readership - doesn't have a warning for getting into a clarification about whether or not she had Syphillis is a potential concern in my mind as is... but then it drops in that she was victim of an attempted rape and murdered whilst pregnant in the last sentence. Yeah, it's perfectly factual - but without a warning to signpost it, it feels disconcerting for me.

I understand there are concerns about how the Wiki is perceived outwith based on decisions made of this nature. But I fail to see how removal of the two N-word pages would be detrimental in that regard, if the content has been moved to the already notable Racism page. And I can't see anyone on Twitter being able to sell the notion of adding trigger warnings as a travesty etc.

I get that removing the two N-word pages would likely require some change to allow exception to the Wiki policy on nouns, but I honestly feel like there is a strong case here that these two pages should be removed. I'm often happy about this Wiki and the steps that it has made to balance complete factual presentation with inclusiveness and appropriateness. I have defended the Wiki in some instances particularly re. white actors playing non-white characters & how that is acknowledged here. But this is one case in which I'm feeling sad about the present state of affairs.

I understand this is quite the ramble from someone who has preferred to indirectly help others rather than been involved in the Wiki directly, and perhaps a little personally charged - which I hope I've tempered back suitably enough.