Talk:The Master/Archive 5

Soon to be unlocked, but don't change section heads please
As noted at Forum:The Master - 1 article, we're close to restoring this article to a normal state in which people can more or less freely edit it. References to individual incarnations shall now be done through the following templates: category=The Master templates columns=2 More will be added automatically to this list as they are created. Click on any of these for usage details, but basically the way we'll now connect to this page is to write something like this:
 * The Fourth Doctor faced his final challenge: a confrontation with atop the radio telescope. (TV: Logopolis (TV story)

which yields:
 * The Fourth Doctor faced his final challenge: a confrontation with atop the radio telescope. (TV: Logopolis)

If you need to make the the capitalised, then type. These links, be they, or whoever will go directly to the section of this article dealing with that version of the character.

It is therefore extremely important that you do not alter the section headers on this article at all. Change what you want about the text, but please leave the section titles as they are. 16:39: Sat 17 Nov 2012

Trail of the White Worm/Oseidon Adventure
Just thought i'd mention that this story takes place in the year 1979 not 1976, it's on the cover blurb and mentioned in the story. Cheers :-D 82.26.212.148talk to me 10:23, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

P.S Article is looking good!82.26.212.148talk to me 10:26, November 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * Can i bump this? I just took a look at the back cover and it definately says 1979. Bruce96 ☎  12:35, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well the article is freely editable now. However, please be mindful of the fact that back cover blurbs are not valid sources. What counts is the actual narrative itself. If you can confirm, by listening to the narrative, that the year is 1979, by all means please change the article.   18:57: Tue 11 Dec 2012

In-universe block-thing
Gotta say, not a big fan of the huge-annoying-page-breaking-space-taking-in-universe-1990's box. Mainly because it, well, is a huge-annoying-page-breaking-space-taking box. Also it fails to reference Destiny of the Doctors, which annoys me. I don't think the box is really needed, and if it is, then it really doesn't need to be that huge. Also no one has messed with this page or the links in weeks, why is it still locked? OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 01:46, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, so looking back, it's not as bad as I thought. However, a note on your new block at ... You can't really say "the Big Finish audios" because the Terserus Master appeared in the recent Fourth Doctor series as well (Trail of the White Worm (audio story)...) OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 01:56, December 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * So you went from hating to kinda liking the sidebar in 10 minutes flat? Colour me confused.  User:Shambala108  seemed to rather like it, so I'll be leaving that one in.  As for the "It's all about Delgado" block, it's absolutely fair to say that "the Big Finish Master" is always what you're calling the "Tersurus Master", but is in fact just a degenerated form of Delgado.  No matter what audio you're talking about, it's always Beevers playing essentially the Keeper of Traken guy.   02:03: Tue 11 Dec 2012

variable
I note that the variable was changed away from Geoffrey Beevers to be Alex Macqueen, with a reasonable interpretation of the variable given in the page history. However, although I understand that reason, it's important to point out a feature of the that was not there at launch, but has been there for many months. There's, which displays as "main voice actor" and , which displays as "other voice actors".

In the case of most Time Lords, we've generally opted, by virtue of forum discussion, not to fill in any actor information. This is because we can generally leave the actor stuff to the individual incarnation pages. So we do not want these variables used at all on the Doctor or Romana, for instance.

However, since we've decided to put everything about the Master on one page, there's a need for the infobox to actually include the various actors. In this case — or indeed in the case of any character played by multiple actors — means what it says on the tin: "main voice actor", i.e., "the one who's performed the role more times than anyone else". can then be used for people who are additionally heard on audio in this part.

In the case of Fourth Doctor, there's no need for the variable at all, because the main voice actor is the same as the main televisual actor. Here, though, it's not so straightforward — and, one could argue, it's not at all clear that the relatively minor televisual actor Geoffrey Beevers would have become the main audio actor. 19:08: Tue 11 Dec 2012

Intro changes
I thought at first that Crashsnake's changes to the intro were merely grammatical/punctuation maladies, but on closer inspection of the diff, there are significant contentual differences. I understand much of what Crashsnake is trying to do — namely simply reduce the overall size of the lead — but he's introduced a couple of innovations I can't support, and a number of grammatical and punctuation errors that are simply easier to revert than to attempt to integrate. Basically, there wasn't anything actually wrong with what was there before, so it's easier to revert to the base and let Crashsnake try again.

There are only two points of substantive change that Crashsnake made, and I disagree with both of them.


 * The first graf absolutely should end on "evil". The removal of the line, "Both the Doctor and the High Council agreed that [the Master] was evil" is disagreeable, because it's perhaps the most extraordinary thing about the Master.  There are very few beings the Doctor has ever described as actually, literally, no-euphamism-involved, evil. It should be the thing we lead with — especially because it's literally true from several different scripts involving several different Doctors.

19:40: Tue 11 Dec 2012
 * The removal of the line "or perhaps because it was simply in the Doctor's nature to try and heal people" is understandable because it appears to be speculation.  However it is the Master's speculation in The Sound of Drums, it is the apparent truth of Last of the Time Lords, and it's explicitly something Ten says to Simm in The End of Time.

Main Actor?
For characters who have had different actors portraying them, what is this wiki's policy on the actor or actress that goes in the main portrayal box? Is it the person who plays them longest, the person who plays them first, or the person who is currently playing the role? For example, Roger Delgado is listed in the box on The Master's page right now and he was the first actor to play him, but Johm Simm most recently portrayed him and Anthony Ainley played him the longest. (Similarly on Kate Stewart's page, Beverly Cressmen is listed as the main actress, even though Jemma Redgrave played her most recently.) Mewiet ☎  04:27, January 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's who played him the most (Time, not years, so Delgado may match Ainley. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 12:54, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Paul McGann
When was the master played by Paul McGann? I don't see any mention of it on his page. Cult Of Skaro Here.|Communicate here. 17:08, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * When the Master was trying to swap bodes with the Doctor for a few frames Paul McGann indeed played the Master . 139.55.37.109talk to me 19:10, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's too trivial to mention in the infobox. —Josiah Rowe ☎  03:13, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Dominion Doubts
I believe the "Dominion Doubts" section needs to be edited, but since it is unclear I thought it should be discussed here. But the fact that the Master is using the TARDIS formerly belonging to Goth indicates that it can't be set before The Deadly Assasin. Certainly at the very least it must be stated that it is not a pre-Delgado incarnation (the fact that the Master knows the code string that refers to some of his UNIT era stories also backs this up). 219.90.190.144talk to me 16:19, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Please provide details — quotations from the script, if possible — about how we know it's Goth's TARDIS.  17:56: Sat 16 Feb 2013

I'd also state that Dominion occurs BEFORE "Eyes oft that Master," as the Eighth Doctor clearly recognizes him and the Master mentions having already met the Seventh Doctor, claiming "he could never understand a word he said."

Early incarnations
There's a suggestion that Alex Macqueen could be playing a pre-Delgado version of The Master. But I seem to recall that there *are* no pre-Delgado incarnations, and that the idea of "The Dark Path" is that the Master's future incarnations are used up trying to escape from.. what is it, a black hole? Soemthing like that, anyway. Unfortunately this is one of those hard-to-track down books.... Hopefully somebody in the know can comment? 86.168.250.252talk to me
 * Don't know about the rest of your post, but the first sentence is a violation of Tardis:Spoiler policy. You cannot post any information about unaired/unpublished stories anywhere on the wiki (with the exceptions of the Series 7 page and Howling:The Howling). Shambala108 ☎  03:43, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

After the end of The Name of the Doctor (series7 e14), is the Doctor also the Master?

The Master's fate in The End of Time
Just because the Master was engulfed by the same white light as Rassilon and the Time Lords in The End of Time when the Time Lords were sent back into the end of the Time War doesn't necessarily mean that the Master was sent with them, especially since the Master wasn't using the link to stay out of the time lock as the Time Lords were in the first place. Saying that the Master did indeed go with them into the Time War as well just because he was last seen being engulfed by the same white light, would be like saying that at the end of the universe humanity used the Cybermen's technology to become the Toclafane just because the Toclafane's energy bolts looked similar to the Cybus Cybermen's in The Army of Ghosts/Doomsday. TroopDude ☎  18:54, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

Aliases
I've noticed a tendency of The Master to go by aliases that employ the word Master in differ languages. In the The Daemons, the Master poses as Vicar Magister and in The Time Monster (TV story) he goes by Professor Phasciluz[not sure of spelling, but it's Greek, as Jo Grant points out.


 * Thascalos, I believe. These are pointed out on the wiki on the list of aliases of the Master, rather than the main character page. -- Tybort (talk page) 18:08, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

"Light at the End" placement?
Does anyone have a sense of where Light at the End fits in the Master's timeline? The Master is played by Beevers, but does he fit in the gap between Deadly Assassin and Keeper of Traken, or is it the "Tremas lost" version from Dust Breeding and Master? (I haven't listened to Mastermind, so I'm not clear on whether the post-Mastermind incarnation is an option or not.) In Light at the End he pulls the Doctors from multiple points in the Doctor's timestream, so we can't go from that. Thoughts? —Josiah Rowe ☎  05:34, October 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Answering my own question: on re-listening, I caught the detail that the Master says he hasn't met Nyssa yet, so clearly it's between Deadly Assassin and Keeper of Traken for him. Will add to article accordingly. —Josiah Rowe ☎  05:23, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Moreover, it is explicitly stated that he crosses his own timeline. This might a key to re-read the whole of the appearances of the "Beevers" in the audios...--HarveyWallbanger ☎  10:43, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

The DWM Bookazine on The Master puts Light at the End *after* Mastermind when going over the character's audio appearances. I know the wiki doesn't like out-of-universe sources, but that's probably as close to official placement as we're going to get. Cousin Zagreus ☎  16:06, April 1, 2015 (UTC)

Why didn't the Doctor recognise the Master in Utopia?
In The Sound of Drums (TV story) the Doctor says he can tell if someone is a Time Lord. Why didn't he recognise the master in Utopia (TV story)? Was it to do with the master not realising he was a time lord? Tankingmage ☎  14:26, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * That is pretty much what we are to assume. The chameleon arch in the fob watch basically hid the Master's "Time Lord-ness" from the Doctor until the watch was opened. Shambala108 ☎  17:34, October 31, 2013 (UTC)

Only two paths after Survival, not three?
I know this is a big ol' can of worms, but it seems like a bit of an over-complication. While both Dust Breeding and Prime Time contradict the Virgin New Adventures, they don't really contradict each other.

First off, it seems like Big Finish's Ace dramas are meant to link with the BBC Ace novels. Dust Breeding directly references Storm Harvest while Prime Time itself references the "Daleks on Kar-Charrat" from The Genocide Machine.

Second, one story shows the Master escaped from Cheetah World but still in his Trakenite body. The other story shows the Master after his Trakenite body has been destroyed. The two are not incompatible.

So I'm really wondering why these are treated as incompatible stories when they seem to be a part of the same continuum? Constonks ☎  05:35, January 5, 2014 (UTC)

Can we get rid of these info boxes?
Okay, for a long time we've had these long, boring, out-of-place info boxes in certain sections of this page which address stories from an out-of-universe perspective. One question.

Why?

Okay, a few things that I would like to note. When we first created these, they stretched out the pages we put them on and were a total eye sore. They ripped apart any organization that the page had picture-wise, and cut the page so strangely that you would rather go read something else then look at it for another second. That was then. Now, with the new wiki system, it's far worse, because the multiple boxes push each other around even further down the page. Go look at the Dominion doubt box. Half-way through the page. A useless waste of space for a box that has little point.

I might have liked these a little bit if they were used when they should be (Dominion actually isn't that bad info wise), but they're mostly not. Making sense of the 1990s contains information which could very easily be transferred into "accounts" and "sources" in an easily read-able fashion. Instead, the author has slammed a college paper into a very slim table, which is both unattractive an unnecessary.

Also they're amazingly informal. "Susan turned the TCE on the Delgado Master in his TARDIS — and it fried him. Extra crispy." Really? Really? "Extra crispy?" Every time I read that sentence I head-but my computer. Every time. It's not just that they are informal, but they are also not funny.

So, in conclusion, the boxes are out-of-place, unattractive, and insanely informal and unfunny. At very least, the only one not entirely pointless or filled with very specific interpretations of one source is the Dominoes box, the rest (and probably even that) need to go. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 18:37, January 5, 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree with you. I've never been a fan of the boxes, but I saw how, in the case of Dominion, it could clarify how that incarnation of the Master is at odds with the timeline. I 100% think that we should revert back to a "account/source" method like you suggest, but maybe we should wait until next month for clarification on the MacQueen front, with his appearance in Dark Eyes 2, which hopefully might shed some more light on things. I think we're better approaching this with an "everything must be changed" stance rather than leaving one of these silly boxouts still in place. --Revan\Talk 18:51, January 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, considering how much work went into creating the boxes, I don't think it's helpful or useful to use words like "obnoxious, unfunny, boring" or "silly". I do agree that they mess up the look of the page by squashing text and photos to the left. However, I think the information they contain is pretty important. We do need a way to let new users know how/where we've placed various incarnations of the Master; otherwise, we would have to constantly revert edits. There has to be a way to include this info without compromising the look of the page. But I agree with Revan that we ought to wait until the new release comes out. Shambala108 ☎  20:40, January 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Didn't mean to offend the creators of the boxes. I agree that the content in the boxes is important, but that that information could very easily be converted to an in-universe context or be put in the behind-the-scenes section once the tone was corrected. It in no way needs to be where it is.
 * And holding off the discussion for now is fine. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 22:10, January 5, 2014 (UTC)

I can't see anything in-universe to take from the "It's all about Delgado" box. "Making sense of the 1990s" explains things from a behind the scenes perspective because of the confusion. That said, the "one account" stuff is already present, so I'm not sure what you guys are suggesting to revert or transfer to the in-universe writing. Not sure either way about how to approach "Dominion doubt", but again, the in-universe text explicitly specifies it's after Ainley but before the Time War Master. -- Tybort (talk page) 23:00, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Darwin has indeed made these sidebars more difficult to work with. They worked better in a fixed-width environment. Their CSS needs to be adjusted to make them work in this changed environment, but as they currently affect only one page, they were kinda low on the repair list.


 * Far from pointless, sidebars — they aren't infoboxes — are a standard convention of publishing. Pick up any magazine or newspaper and you will see a sidebar — information not written in the same voice as the main article which amplifies a point made in the main article. Such sidebars are often deliberately written in a lighter style so that it's clear to the reader that they are conveying a different type of information. And lest you think that it's not something that applies to digital media, here's a BBC news report published today that contains a sidebar.


 * Sidebars are a tried and true piece of design. The fact that they are unusual for this wiki doesn't make them "stupid", "ugly" or — what was the word that's sine been removed from this page? — "obnoxious".


 * I strongly disagree that the information could be conveyed as effectively using the "one account suggests" routine that we typically do. The history of the Master is really confusing at certain points: post-Frontier in Space, post-Survival and now around Dominion.  We need to help our readers understand these trouble spots.  And, I think, this is one case that where clarity does not come from sticking only to an in-universe voice.  Furthermore, I think it's important that we don't bury this information in the BTS section, but put it close to where the body of the article starts to get confusing.


 * It's critical that we prominently explain why this wiki thinks the Delgado incarnation includes the versions played by Pratt and Beevers. That assertion is not at all clear to even the moderately knowledgeable fan.  And yet it's a really important concept to get your head around, if you're going to understand how to read and edit articles on the the wiki relative to the Master. Equally the place of the Dominion master is obscure.  But, like Revan suggests, we might soon be able to drop that box altogether, if new narratives give us greater certainty.  23:49: Sun 05 Jan 2014

I strongly agree. Not only cringe inducing, unfunny and amateurish they are very jarring and give far too much emphasis to the least seen or heard, least popular elements of Doctor Who rather than the mass media mainstream Who series. It reeks of fanwank.


 * Flying Tiger Comics, regardless of the tone of these sidebars, we are not getting rid of them just because they give emphasis to an unpopular or not widely seen or out of print element of the DWU. Especially when the whole point of them is a result of how confusing and messy the post-Frontier in Space and pre-Utopia and The Sound of Drums history of the Master's timeline is. It's not like the Seventh and Eighth Doctors have any clearer history or continuity following their television runs.


 * The policies of this site assert that Doctor Who has no canon, and that we treat prose, comic, audio and televised Doctor Who on equal terms. That is, we give equal weight to the New Adventures, Mike Tucker and Robert Perry's novels, John Peel's novels, Big Finish and Doctor Who Magazine. (See T:CAN, T:IU and T:NPOV) -- Tybort (talk page) 14:44, May 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, we could certainly find a way to link to a section which details the out-of-universe divergences with a correct tone. Just make a template that says something like "Confused? Check out this in-universe explanation!" and links to something in the Behind the scenes section that details the divergences. We can help readers understand the out-of-universe confusion without breaking our Article's focus and splitting the page in half. As a graphic designer, I must say that what we have set-up right now is nothing more than an eye-sore, and as multiple people have pointed out, it gets worse when you try and read the darn things. I cringe every time I read the "extra-crispy" joke, half because it's not funny and out of the tone we aim for, and half because I've read that book, and I'm not certain that analysis is entirely accurate. Looking at how the 2015 Wikia update effects the template and article makes it clear that what we are doing right now is simply not acceptable by any means. It splits the reader's concentration, breaks the point of the site, and makes the set-up of that section a total mess, which is a big problem because Ainley is only on the most important Masters of all time, and the most interesting to read about. We should be filling that section with interesting details, treasure troves of images, and in-depth coverage, but we can't, because this ugly-box is blocking any of that from working. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 22:48, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Separate articles for the Master's incarnations
Why dont we have seperate articles for the master's incarnations like we do romana's
 * This site's policy page T:MASTER (via discussion on Forum:The Master - 1 article) explains the reasoning. Basically, we have no distinct way of disambiguating or numbering the incarnations to make separate articles, especially for non-performance Masters.


 * We do, however, have a special form of template for each "type" of Master, like Delgado, Frontier and so forth (as well as instructions on how to operate these templates) which is outlined on T:MASTER. -- Tybort (talk page) 13:30, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why not simply use the already set precedent from the Unbound Doctors' pages? IE: Have "The Master (Terror of the Autons)" for Delgado's incarnation, "The Master (Dust Breeding)" for the Dust Breeding and Master appearances, "The Master (TV Movie)" for Roberts', etc...Cousin Zagreus ☎  01:15, December 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * We went through a lot of work about a year or so ago to join together all the formerly separate Master pages. If you're interested in the discussions, you can look at the archived talk pages for this article. Shambala108  ☎  03:17, December 5, 2014 (UTC)

Reverted edits
I have reverted the edits made by user:41.133.47.166 to this page and Magnus, The War Games and the War Chief. Several months ago this user tried to make his point on several talk pages, but failed to provide convincing evidence per this wiki's rules. I reverted the edits and suggested he try the forums; as he did not do so, I've reverted his edits again. Shambala108 ☎  16:22, January 29, 2014 (UTC)

Removed from personality section

 * When he turned into the human John Smith, the Master was still somehow deeply aware of his dark nature and troubled by it. As his true self, this incarnation had a far more darker and evil side to him than most of his other selves. He seemed to enjoy being mysterious about his true identity and enjoyed giving his enemies riddles as to who he truly was. Also compared to his other selves, this incarnation was far calmer and well spoken, which made him sound more sinister. (AUDIO: Master)

While we can have some leeway in calling him "evil" unlike other pages of this wiki due to all of the quotes in the lead, "sinister" and "evil side" doesn't clearly explain his personality very well.


 * This Master, unlike his successors, seems to want the respect and approval of a physician, this is evident when hallucinating his greatest fear, he imagined a giant version of the Doctor towering over him and laughing. (TV: The Sea Devils)

I've not seen The Sea Devils, but this sounds either awkwardly-worded or outright speculation. -- Tybort (talk page) 22:31, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen The Sea Devils in a while, but it sounds more like The Mind of Evil when his greatest fear was revealed to be the Doctor. But it doesn't matter, because you're absolutely right, it's complete speculation to connect "a physician" with the Doctor. Shambala108 ☎  22:42, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Question
What's with the giant picture?!? --Reikson ☎  06:43, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

Adding MacQueen to the Picture
Now that Alex Macqueen has appeared as The Master three times, and probably more soon, could we add his image to the rolling picture at the top? Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 20:34, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Could someone please fix the image sizes?
I apologize if this has already been done but could someone fix the image sizes they are distracting and blocks up a huge portion of the page.MrAnonymous ☎  05:19, April 21, 2014 (UTC)MrAnonymous
 * I'm not seeing a problem. Could you be more specific? Shambala108 ☎  14:13, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a problem either, and what size should they be and what size are they supposed to be? I always make images 200pxl Masterpwn ☎  14:41, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about that I was looking at the page with Internet Explorer and I guess it made the pictures look massive. I just looked at it with fire fox and they were fine.MrAnonymous ☎  15:39, April 21, 2014 (UTC)MrAnonymous
 * Yeah, wikia decided a little while back that it would no longer support IE, so if you use it, things won't necessarily look right. (I had to stop using IE for wikis because it would always crash.) Shambala108 ☎  16:56, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

Alex McQueen Chronology
Just something I was wondering after I listened to Dark Eyes 2 and Unit: Dominion. We know from Dark Eyes 2 that the McQueen version of the Master was saved from "his predicament" from the Time Lords, and given an mission, but we don't know when this mission takes place in his Timeline in relation to Dominion. It could take place afterwards for all we know, and not before, as this wiki states. Surely by Occam's Razor we should assume that since Dominion was released first, it happened first, for both the Doctor and the Master. --89.101.153.65talk to me 10:53, May 1, 2014 (UTC)

Why is Anthony Ainley listed as main actor other actors have played him for equally significant periods of time most notably his original actor Roger Delgado so I don't see why they should be listed as just Other TV actors.


 * In Eyes of the Master, the Doctor makes the "Hello, You" quip, which the Master seems to 'get', as well as talking about wondering if he was going to run into the Seventh Doctor. These things would seem to tacitly indicate that Dominion comes before Eyes of the Master from the Master's POV.Cousin Zagreus ☎  22:37, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

17 incarnations
In the bottom of the page it is said that "That hasn't stopped at least one non-narrative source from trying, though. The 2010 edition of REF: Doctor Who: The Visual Dictionary indicates that the Master played by John Simm is the seventeenth form. According to this theory, Derek Jacobi would be the sixteenth, Eric Roberts the fifteenth, and Anthony Ainley/Gordon Tipple the fourteenth. However, there's no narrative evidence to support any of the Visual Dictionary claims." I actually think that this is true, given that in the beginning of Doctor Who: The Movie, the Seventh Doctor narrates and he tells that the Master had used up all of his regenerations, having lastly been Exterminated by the Daleks. Given that a Time Lord have 13 incarnations this would mean that Anthony Ainley/Gordon Tipple IS the 14th, Eric Roberts IS the 15th, Derek Jacobi IS the 16th, which would mean that John Simm indeed IS the 17th. I want to hear your opinions on this, as I see this as the truth. I always say that the John Simm one is the 17th. --DCLM ☎  21:06, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now, personally in my head-canon this has laways been true. I've always taken Destiny of the Doctors to lead into the TV movie, and thus I've considered any incarnations introduced that cuts between Ainley, Roberts, and the New Series to be non-canon. But of coarse that's not how the Wikia works. WE include all valid sources, no matter how doubtful their canonicity is. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 11:27, September 1, 2015 (UTC)

Gordon Tipple
If Paul has a box for his brief moment as the Master, Gordon deserves to be properly listed in a box of his own too.

The name 'Koschei'
The article states that the master was originally called 'Koschei'. (I see in the Archivessomeone else brought this up earlier, but it was ignored, but still...) The article then goes on to use the word 'Koschei' approximately 50 times in the first few paragraphs. Things from stories like The End of Time (TV story), The Glorious Dead, Master (audio story) etc. are attributed to 'Koschei'. "Koschei looked into the untempered schism", "Koschei left Gallifrey" etc. It is overkill for somone trying to convince others(and probably him/herself) that the Master was originally called 'Koschei'.

However, this is all completely wrong. In the novel The Dark Path, the Second Doctor learns that there is another TARDIS where he is. He panics, fearing that his people(not yet named 'Time Lords') have come to hunt him down. Later, he learns that the owner of this TARDIS is called 'Koschei'....and continues to panic thinking it's just one of his people sent to hunt him down. Later, only after having 'Koschei' described to him, does he start to think it could be his old friend. And it's only when they meet face-to-face does he realise that 'Koschei' is indeed his old friend. His introductions to Jamie also make this clear beyond any resonable shadow of doubt that Koschei is a new name for this character as of the Dark Path, a name that the Doctor is totally unfamiliar with.

Now, no doubt, some people will immediately point to Divided Loyalties as supposed "proof". Now, let's see....Adric, Nyssa and Tegan all have nightmares where real events from their past are mixed up with fiction. These nightmares are clearly upsetting and confusing them. Then, the Doctor falls asleep, the next Chapter is clearly entitled DREAMING in big bold letters. Within this dream a character called 'Koschei' appears. Various other things that totally and utterly contradict established continuity occur, including various self-contradictory events. After this Chapter, the Doctor wakes up, and remarks on the "weird nightmare" that he has just had. Shortly after this, it is revealed that both a)the Doctor and his companions are within The Celestial Toymaker's Dreamscape and b)The Celestial Toymaker states outright that he is the one responsible for giving them those anguishing nightmares.

Now, based off that, we have two usages of 'Koschei'. One a real event where the Second Doctor has never heard the name 'Koschei' before, and the other a "Weird nightmare" full of self-contradictory oddities where a character called Koschei appears within what is unambiguously shown to be a dream, and only within this unambiguous dream sequence.

And yet, Tardis Data Core not only states that The Master was originally called 'Koschei', but even deceptively tries to make it look as though William Hughes in The Sound of Drums (TV story), the flashback sequence in Master (audio story), and various references in stories like The Time Monster (TV story), The Glorious Dead, The Claws of Axos (TV story) etc. were all referring to and/or showing a character called 'Koschei'! "Koschei' does not appear in The Sound of Drums etc. In fact, 'Koschei' does not even appear in Divided Loyalties, because that is unquestionably a nightmare that The Celestial Toymaker creates for the Doctor. The one, real occurrence of the Master as 'Koschei' in in The Dark Path, where it is also unambiguously clear that Koschei is a new alias that the Doctor has never heard before The Dark Path.

As long as this article continues to state that the Master was "originally called Koschei", and the word 'Koschei' is used dozens of times in the opening section, then this article is at best simply wrong and at worst someone pushing their personal beliefs on everyone else. Master of Spiders ☎  06:28, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

Is this actually necessary?
"Mister Saxon", meanwhile, is an anagram of "Master No. Six". Although there is no clear evidence to indicate that this was intentional, John Simm was the sixth actor (not including Derek Jacobi) to portray the character of the Master.

So, there's no indication that the production team ever thought of it, but more importantly it is not even true. "Mister Saxon" has other anagrams such as 'smears toxin', 'senators mix', 'matrix noses', 'extra is moss', 'Stream in sox' and 'Rani most sex'. Any of which could be said to be far more relevant than something that was never the intention of the people who made the show, and more than that isn't even true in the first place. Master of Spiders ☎  09:05, October 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. The key sentence is "there is no clear evidence to indicate that this was intentional". Therefore it is not relevant to the article. Shambala108 ☎  14:06, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Woman in the Shop
Has it been overtly implied that the Mistress was the one who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number, or is that still just speculation at this point? –Nahald ☎  04:22, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * 100% clear at this point. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 02:57, September 27, 2015 (UTC)

(Spoilers)Dark Water
(Just a heads up this is Pcthomas2. So if there's an issue just shoot it to my talk page.) Just wondering, are we going to merge the Missy article with this page? I mean she even said who she was.
 * This issue is currently being addressed at Thread:164874. Shambala108 ☎  14:11, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Originally called Koschei?
With all the 'Missy' editing going on, someone has reinserted that the Master was "originally called Koschei". This has been definitively debunked as fanon some time ago. And yet, it keeps coming back. However the article is now locked. Master of Spiders ☎  08:59, November 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * References to the Master as being called "Koschei" appear in PROSE: The Dark Path, The Face of the Enemy, and Divided Loyalties, all of which are considered valid sources of in-universe information by this wiki. &mdash; Rob T Firefly - &#916;&#8711; - 22:16, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * To him being called that yes, but the contested part is it being his original name. JagoAndLitefoot ☎  22:43, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. The point is that in The Dark Path, it is explicitly stated that when the Doctor learns that one of his people is in the area, he panics, feeling that it's someone come to take him, and put him on trial. He later learns that this other one of his people is called 'Koschei' and he still panics, not knowing who it is, but again fearing he's come to collect him. The name 'Koschei' is used several times in front of the Doctor. It's only when he comes face-to-face with this 'Koschei' that he realises who 'Koschei' is, and it's clear in the introductions, particularly when the Doctor introduces his best friend to Jamie, that 'Koschei' is a new name for this character. So, the first time that the Doctor has ever heard the name 'Koschei', and specifically when it is referred to the character we know best as 'The Master' is in a story set during Season 5. Over 200 years after the Doctor has left Gallifrey. And please check the title of the Chapter of Divided Loyalties where the name 'Koschei' is sued, as well as the Fifth Doctor's comments about this sequence in the next Chapter. Master of Spiders ☎  04:39, November 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yep, so this discussion has been ignored. It's actually quite laughable that someone feels the need to push the incorrect fanon information that the Master was "originally called Koschei". Master of Spiders ☎  12:05, November 4, 2014 (UTC)

Have some patience. You have waited a day since your last post. Some discussions have been rolling on for over a year without activity. The users involved in this discussion may not have logged on since you published your reply. -- 13:37, November 4, 2014 (UTC)

well you see, the article used to state that the Master was "originally called Koschei". This was discussed, and then those three inaccurate words were removed. Some time later, the whole 'Missy' issue came up, causing some disruptive editing. The article was then locked because of the 'Missy' issue. And then, after it was locked, the inaccurate "originally called Koschei" nonsense was reinserted. So yeah, that is pushing a piece of fanon as fact, and it has been discussed before. Master of Spiders ☎  16:06, November 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, you have already said that. My reply was just pointing out that you've waited one solitary day before saying "this discussion has been ignored". It hasn't, it's ongoing, and you need to allow time for it pan out.-- 16:30, November 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * MOS, you base your disbelief of the Master's original name entirely upon The Dark Path, and the Doctor's reaction to the name. What do you make of the Master's reaction to the name in The Face of the Enemy? According to my read of the book, the Master suggests to Ian that he was indeed originally called "Koschei".  Would you be okay with the phraseology, "whose original name may have been Koschei"?   17:48: Tue 04 Nov 2014


 * There is nothing in Face of the Enemy that says that the Master was originally called Koschei. Only that the master was called Koschei around the time of The Dark Path, and that the alt-universe Master is still called Koschei at the time of Face of the Enemy. It's said that The Dark Path was the defining event that led to him being The Master(which actually contradicts several other stories, but that's not the point here). Only it never says his original name was Koschei. Again, the only thing we know about the name Koschei is that he was calling himself that at the time of The Dark Path, and that it was not a name that the Second Doctor recognised. Master of Spiders ☎  09:26, November 6, 2014 (UTC)

Picture Of Missy
A picture of missy should be added to the infobox

Please Add a Pic for Missy
Can someone please add a pic of Missy to the rotating template? I realize it was blocked after Dark Water so no one would keep adding Missy, but this has backfired now. Whoever can unlock the page, please do so Missy can be added!!!

Picture Box
Can someone change the john simm master from what it is just now of him being strapped to a chair, to something where he is posing or doing something evil. Would just make it look better. --Coop3 ☎  21:59, November 11, 2014 (UTC)

Legacy of the Daleks
So, having recently reread this, it doesn't actually state that Delgado and Pratt are the same incarnation of the Master. Page 226 sees Susan using the TCE on the Master's device, while he's still using it, and Susan running back into the Master's TARDIS, seeing an explosion of energy on the scanner, and assuming the Master has died. Page 241 then sees Goth on Terserus, running into the Master, now played by Pratt. Timewyrm Exodus established that regenerations can go wrong, and I think there's a case to be made for such a case happening here. The explosion of energy Susan sees could as easily be the result of regeneration energy as from the Master's device exploding. Cousin Zagreus ☎  04:27, November 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Given this information, can we get rid of that "It's all about Delgado" box, as it's inaccurate at best and misleading at worst? Cousin Zagreus ☎  17:28, December 1, 2014 (UTC)

In legacy of the Daleks, the Doctor immediately recognises the Master. The Master in LOTD behaves like Delgado, and if memory serves correctly was described as looking like Delgado. It is possible that it's a post-Delgado master who is suspiciously similar to Delgado. However, the Beevers/Tremas merging creates a Master who takes on Delgado facial features that Tremas never had. The Pratt/Beevers/Ainley/Roberts/Preacher Masters all say and do things that Delgado says/does, while other incarnations such as Simm do not. The at-the-time-canon Scream of the Shalka has the Roberts essence loaded into and android who resembles Delgado(because it's the same incarnation).

While there is wiggle room, it seems overwhelmingly likely that Pratt is Delgado, and therefore so are Beevers, Ainley and Roberts.
 * Harvest of Time states that the Master goes in for a certain look when regenerating or stealing bodies if he can manage it, so the fact that Ainley's incarnation shares similar visual cues with Delgado's doesn't really mean much of anything in that regard. The evidence still supports Delgado and Pratt being separate incarnations more than it does the opposite.Cousin Zagreus ☎  15:44, December 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Additionally, as recent as issue DWM 480, official publications refer to Delgado and Pratt as separate incarnations.Cousin Zagreus ☎  18:28, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't Harvest of Time actually show the Pratt/Beevers Master on the Sild ship (it's been a while since I read it)? If that's the case then the book specifically states that each Master on the ship is a different incarnation, meaning that we have another in-universe source that states Delgado and Mr. Crispy are two different incarnations, leading to a changing of how the article is structured. --Revan\Talk 18:31, December 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * It does indeed, on page 220 of the paperback release. The indication on page 209 is that there are four hundred and seventy(ish) distinct incarnations of the Master, from multiple potential timelines, housed within the Sild ship. Since both the Delgado incarnation and the Pratt incarnation are present, this suggests that they are distinct and separate incarnations.Cousin Zagreus ☎  22:57, December 4, 2014 (UTC)

Actually after we see a Master with "ash-grey flesh and dressed in a black suit with elaborate white sleeves and collar"(ie. not the Peter Pratt incarnation from The Deadly Assassin (TV story), the Master says:

"Many of them, like this one have perished. The mechanism clearly failed. Careless of whoever brought me here, wouldn't you say?"

Thus, it is not the Peter Pratt Master. It is an unknown incarnation of the Master who has die din the apparatus. Master of Spiders ☎  14:10, December 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I can see how that's up for interpretation. In that case, I point you to the novelization of The Deadly Assassin, which suggests that the Master's (at the time) present state is the result of burning through them and/or something going wrong with the regeneration process, the implication being that Delgado was nowhere near being the last natural incarnation of the Time Lord. It's not out of the realm of possibility that The Master had to use up more than one regeneration to survive what Susan put him through, especially as she's quite sure that not even a regeneration could save him.


 * There's also the matter of the various DWM issues and reference books that count them as different incarnations. Or how about the BBC's character page for The Master/Missy stating "When the Fourth Doctor encountered the Master on Gallifrey he had reached the end of his regeneration cycle". Note it doesn't say "end of his 13th life"; It's worded such to imply that a regeneration has occurred, and that it was the last one.Cousin Zagreus ☎  17:07, December 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Per your last paragraph, please keep in mind that when it comes to in-universe articles, which The Master is, reference books are not considered valid sources on this wiki, and neither are the magazines unless you're talking about the stories published in the magazines. In addition, odd as it sounds, the BBC page is not a valid source for in-universe articles. Only stories are allowed as sources. Shambala108 ☎  17:15, December 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * I was not aware of that. Hmm. May I ask why that is? As you say, it seems odd as a policy.


 * Anyway, I shall now point to Harvest of Time again, and the fact that The Master is not at all surprised he has future incarnations. He can't have known he'd be reduced to stealing bodies for a couple thousand years, so unless he had regenerations left this probably would have come as a surprise. That he accounts for the shear number of incarnations by guessing that they are potential futures and alternate timelines can be read as him not expecting to have beyond the normal amount of lives for a Time Lord at the time. That, combined with the bit from the Deadly Assassin novelization above and the fact that Legacy isn't nearly as clear-cut as it's claimed to be here is surely enough to show that it is, at the very least, an ambiguous claim that Delgado and Pratt are the same incarnation, if not outright spurious.Cousin Zagreus ☎  17:31, December 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * But would he necessarily know he had so many future incarnations? I think both sides of this discussion are taking facts, but then spinning them, adding on to them. By the looks of it there's nothing in Harvest of Time that says Pratt is not Delgado. But then there's nothing in Harvest of Time that says that Pratt is Delgado either. Master of Spiders ☎  05:11, December 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * That's a fair enough assessment. I think it's also fair to say that there's really no definitive supporting evidence for Delgado and Pratt being the same incarnation, while's plenty for them not. The only two arguments I've really seen are "Legacy of the Daleks said they are", when it doesn't, and "Ainley looks similar to Delgado's incarnation so they must be the same", which is a weak argument in the first place even if Harvest of Time hadn't established that The Master always goes in for a certain look if he can help it.


 * The infobox should be at the very least corrected, if not removed entirely.Cousin Zagreus ☎  18:26, December 6, 2014 (UTC)

Since no one else seems to be chiming in on this, is it safe to make the edits? Cousin Zagreus ☎  17:55, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

Talking about it on here sadly doesn't make a policy change. I agree that this needs changing, so bring the issue up on forum and a discussion will take place like this as to whether Delgado and Pratt/Beevers should be separated as incarnations. --Revan\Talk 18:11, December 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ah, I wasn't aware of that, thank you. I have now started a topic over in the Panopticon. Cousin Zagreus ☎  18:41, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

I know the issue's long past, but I just thought I'd point out that Divided Loyalties definitely states that the Master at least *attempted* a thirteenth regeneration which resulted in his decrepit state in The Deadly Assassin. It's left ambiguous as to how *successful* the regeneration was, but you could read this as the 'half' that Eight refers to in Legacy when saying he'd run into "two and a half" incarnations since Delgado. Would dovetail nicely with the scene at the end of Deadly Assassin in which the Master appears to get a bit better, showing that he managed to harness at least some of the energy of the eye of harmony to further his regeneration. Cousin Zagreus ☎  16:04, April 1, 2015 (UTC)

Page per incarnation
Aliases of the Master each links to a section on a simply MASSIVE page... seeing as how each incarnation (regeneration) of the Doctor is considered distinct enough to have their own article, couldn't we split the Master's article as well? The main page being an overview and the section on each incarnation (played by different actors, like the doctor) being its own page? talk2ty 00:44, January 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Are you requesting we combine the Master or Aliases of the Master?


 * We used to have separate pages for the Master but it was decided to combine them into one article. You can read the discussions at Forum:The Master, Forum:The Master - 1 article, and Thread:117692. Shambala108 ☎  01:32, January 16, 2015 (UTC)

Drum-Beat
This Wikia says the drum-beat was implanted in the Master's head during the last day of the Last Great Time War. The series itself tells that it was put in when he was a child at 8 years old during his initiation. That means that this Wikia is wrong. --DCLM ☎  22:22, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

Hollows of Time
The Master Bookazine from DWM confirms that Stream is indeed The Master. The character page should be changed to reflect this, and the individual page for Stream should probably redirect here. Cousin Zagreus ☎  16:10, April 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * From the behind the scenes section on Stream:


 * In the original script for The Hollows of Time, Stream was originally intended to be an alias of the Master. The permissions that Big Finish possessed at the time of adapting The Hollows of Time meant that they could not use the character of the Master in the play; therefore the character of Stream was deliberately left mysterious to reflect this.


 * So, to merge Stream with this page would be in violation of rules 1 and 2 of the four little rules. -- Tybort (talk page) 01:25, April 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * Does the more recent official source that definitively states that Stream is The Master not supersede the old one that says they left the identity "mysterious" for license reasons? Cousin Zagreus ☎  04:31, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Missy not-the-first transgender Time Lord
About Missy. The table says that this is the first seen case of a Time Lord change his gender. Well, as far as I can remember, when Romana has been regenerating into her second incarnation she showed the Doctor some variants, and there was a male human among them
 * While I haven't seen Destiny of the Daleks in full to corroborate this, "As far as I can remember" is not proof. See T:CITE DEF. -- Tybort (talk page) 13:56, May 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's also totally untrue. Romana tries out different female bodies(and yes they're all very clearly female), before the Doctor gives in, and agrees to the Princess Astra one. The only male Time Lord in that scene is the Doctor himself. They're all here: https://lowiczanka.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/romana_regeneration.jpg

...just as all the possible regeneration faces for the Second Doctor were male in The War Games.

Because outside of comedy spoofs(like The Curse of Fatal Death), Time Lords have always regenerated into the same gender they always were. Even projections and avatars like the Watcher, the Dream Lord etc. were the same gender as the Time Lord they belonged to. And when the Master used the Deathworm, Morphant he only ever took over male bodies.

Steven Moffat even confirmed in interviews that he and he alone has been responsible for trans Time Lords, and that before ht ook over there was nothing that even hinted at Time lords changing gender.

Info box images
The images in the infobox appear to be zoomed right in. Is it my browser, (Chrome) or a deliberate design choice?

Status: Stuck in the vortex ☎  05:06, May 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * It's a problem that affects the pages like this one and the Doctor that have slide shows. I don't know if it's because of the wikia-wide changes or due to changes on just this wiki, but at some point it will hopefully be fixed. Shambala108 ☎  13:10, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

Ahh, I see. Thanks. Status: Stuck in the vortex ☎  22:11, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

Requesting Redesign of Out-of-Universe templates again
Sense the discussion on MacQueen has finally come to a close, I want to reopen discissions on the infoboxes which trail the side of the page. Rather than re-explain my position, I'll let me-from-the-past do it:


 * We could certainly find a way to link to a section which details the out-of-universe divergences with a correct tone. Just make a template that says something like "Confused? Check out this in-universe explanation!" and links to something in the Behind the scenes section that details the divergences. We can help readers understand the out-of-universe confusion without breaking our Article's focus and splitting the page in half. As a graphic designer, I must say that what we have set-up right now is nothing more than an eye-sore, and as multiple people have pointed out, it gets worse when you try and read the darn things. I cringe every time I read the "extra-crispy" joke, half because it's not funny and out of the tone we aim for, and half because I've read that book, and I'm not certain that analysis is entirely accurate. Looking at how the 2015 Wikia update effects the template and article makes it clear that what we are doing right now is simplynot acceptable by any means. It splits the reader's concentration, breaks the point of the site, and makes the set-up of that section a total mess, which is a big problem because Ainley is only on the most important Masters of all time, and the most interesting to read about. We should be filling that section with interesting details, treasure troves of images, and in-depth coverage, but we can't, because this ugly-box is blocking any of that from working.

I think that covers it. To me these boxes are a real eye-sore, more so when you actually try and read them. They remind me of the picture captions on that one Transformers wiki -- where they're trying to be funny but instead it feels really out-of-place. I think that, as suggested above, we can easily turn these into behind-the-scenes sections (without the eye-bleeding humour) and then have a template the suggests readers to check out individual sections. Quick box, easy idea, doesn't break our style. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 11:38, September 1, 2015 (UTC)