Forum:The Cybus Cybermen vs Mondas Cybermen Debate in "the Blood of the Cybermen"

Why are all the articles written as if it's confirmed that the Cybermen in TBOTC are Mondas Cybermen? It is perfectly reasonable that the Cybus Cybermen changed their logo, considering that it was a commercial logo...especially when they said that Amy would begin a new race of Cybermen...

There's a Cyberlord and they act like Cybus Cybermen...moreover, why would the Mondasian Cybermen freeze or hibernate when they are made specifically to operate in an extremely cold environment?--203.168.176.42 07:45, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes but the Cybus Cybermen, don't have spaceships, the Cybus Cybermen don't have cybermats, The Cybus Cybermen aren't thousands of years old ect


 * And another thing if you watch any of the Mondasian Cybermen stories you will see that they act the same.


 * Also Hybernation is the Mondasian Cybermens thing, the Cybus Cybermen don't do that but the Mondasian do in Toom of the Cybermen, The Wheel in Space, The Invasion, Earthshock and Attack of the Cybermen.


 * If you look there is more evidence that they are Mondasian than Cybus. General MGD 109


 * Most importantly: why are the Cybusmen in our universe in the first place? They're all trapped in the void. And don't say they're in our universe because they were in the Pandorica Opens. Presumably the cracks and the decaying universe allowed them to get out of the void. After the Big Bang, they will once again be trapped. My theory: Presumably there is a Mondas, and therefor Mondasian cybermen in Pete's World. John Lumic based the design for his cybermen on plans of these Mondasian Cybermen. He probably got the designs from International Electromatics, the company from the invasion (as he was seen using vans with the IE logo, I presume he bought the company). It would be too much of a coincidence that the Cybusmen were so much like our cybermen. TemporalSpleen 11:33, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but that is total speculation and is in no way helpful to the discussion. They were in "The Next Doctor" after being trapped in the void, so it is perfectly reasonably that they would be here too.


 * And there is not more evidence that they are Mondasian Cybermen than Cybus Cybermen. The Cybus ones do have spaceships, as proven in The Pandorica Opens when River specifically says Cyberships. We don't know if the Cybus ones have Cybermats and is speculative to say. The can easily be thousands of years old... they were at the Pandorica implying they can time travel. The only thing that says Mondasion (and is still speculative to say that the Cybus ones don't hibernate). As a friend of mine once said, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's most probably a duck. They walk, look and speak like the Cybus Cybermen, they are most probably them. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:26, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * More speculation, but I think there will be at least a two-parter next season with the Cybermen in, and I reckon there will be another remaking of the Cybermen, possibly the Mondasians finding a Cybus Cyberman and stealing their designs, so that the Mondasians will look like the Cybus and then the Cybus will be removed completely. 82.33.57.244 13:31, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * To General MGD..the thing is...there is no evidence at all that they all Mondasian...and all the bloody articles say they are as if it's confirmed...


 * The Cybus Cybermen do have ships...CyberKing is a ship...the Cybership in the Pandorica Opens is probably theirs


 * The Mondasian Cybermen's cybermats doesn't do anything remotely similar to these cybermats....and don't you think a simple slug-bot is something that would be considered elementary to these advanced races?


 * There's a bloody Cyberlord, Mondasians have no Cyberlord...


 * Everything is speculative, so the articles should not call them Cybus nor Mondasian...this is just plain wrong...


 * For TemporalSpleen, your complete speculative theory is just too out-there...if you have to be that speculative, don't you think it makes much more sense that Cybus Cybermen were the design Mondasian Cybermen based on since Cybus Cybermen can appear anywhere and anytime in our Universe?


 * If you have to propose completely unsupported things, you may as well just say that these Cybermen are the ones that were in the Next Doctor, but was never there due to the retconning, and ended up much earlier on Earth...At least it explains the Cyberlord...203.168.176.42 18:17, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Purely out of interest, can we have a vote?


 * Those in favour of these Cybermen being the Cybus Cybermen:


 * Those in favour of these Cybermen being the Mondas Cybermen:
 * Treacleman


 * Treacleman 19:34 July 11, 2010


 * I think its the Cybusmen it would be pretty anti climactic to bring the original cybermen back in a computor game looking identical to the cybusmen, except for a logo [which I have to say I wouldn't even have noticed if it wasn't pointed out] with the doctor not even mentioning them as being his original adversary's who have been away for years. I think that they will bring the cybermen [Mondasian] back to meet the cybusmen and have the two merge, as they will get to sell more toys that way, they can sell a toy of the original Mondasian Cybermen [who will look different] and of the new super merged Cybermen. Remember the whole reason they have new Daleks is to sell toys for BBC worldwide because the old Dalek toys having been around for years weren't selling as well so they changed them to have new toys they will probably want to do that for the Cybermen, as the cyber toys have been around for a while. Winehousefan: 23:35, July 11, 2010 [UTC]


 * i'm not going to argue because i don't understand why people like the Cybusmen. I am merely going to present the facts i am aware of and my opinion. Firstly, these cybermenare hibernating in tombs in the ice. thats how the mondasians recharged. Second, that stupid cyberlord means nothing. Its perfectly acceptable that rather than use the old design, to which new fans may not be fond of after the cybusmen, they used the new design instead. Also, the chest logo is modified version of the Telos logo. Why would the cybusmen change anything about the way they look. They are more robotic than the mondasians - hell the only thing stopping us calling them robots is the brain. Cybermen wouldn't change their logo, they have no concept of such things. Third, many people seem to assume the cybermen have escaped the void, have the ability to time travel and have developed fleets. In the next doctor it was because of that machine in the basement (the name escapes me), in the pandorica opens it was the cracks. Next, how on earth did the cybusmen develop a fleet (lets not even get into why). their only concern was humanity so why would they develop spaceships. As for time travel, not even the mondasians had that and they were around longer than 4 years. their timeline is much larger. The fact of the matter is, in the next doctor no explanation was given as to how and when the cyber king was developed and how the doctor knew about it. The mondasians had fleets because they were at war constantly and also travelling constantly. They had the time to develop ships. and besides. we encountered them at fairly advanced points in earths future. The Cybusmen were discovered in the year 2006 on pete's world, were seen again later that year around 2-3 months later (it is logical to assume parallel earth is on the same time line as us and those dimension jumps don't travel in time). after doomsday, the cybusmen were locked in the void. so please tell me how a spaceship of the cybusmen that is NOT a cyberking (lol cyberking) ended up in the arctic in earth's future. at no point in the game's narrative does the doctor mention anything about it falling through dimensions.Mr Hat And Clogs 13:55, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

(A). Dalek technology contains time travelling technology, space ships, and Void ship. (B). We don't know if the Void's timeline runs concurrently with Whoniverse's timeline, and whether or not the Cybus Cybermen can accurately arrive at the corresponding time when they travel out of the Void. The Next Doctor suggests otherwise, as the the Cybus Cybermen arrived at a time that was difficult for them to maintain sufficient power supply. (C). The Cybus Cybermen can actually build stuff in the Void as shown in the Next Doctor, so the 2 months limit is irrational and contradicts what was shown.
 * The Cybermen would have no reason to change to look like the Cybus ones. They Cybus ones may change their logo to save on metal usage. The Cybus Cybermen did have ships. They were noted to have Cyberships and appeared in The Pandorica Opens. This also goes along with the fact that they have obviously found some way to travel in time. In The Next Doctor, they've escaped the void and travelled in time. Whose to say they haven't done so again, developed time travel, and then went to Earth's future? And they would have ships in the future, since the human race is spread across several gallexies. Plus, the Cybermen that went to the preview in Glasgow were Cybus Cybermen. --The Thirteenth Doctor 14:12, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * yes but there is still no on screen explanation as to the creation of the cyberking, fleet or their gaining the ability to time travel. what we assume is us merely connecting dots to try and let it make sense. but it doesn't. the cybusmen, being more robotic than their mondasian counterparts, were highly efficient and focused only on conversion. they would have no need for space ships and time travel. you have to look at it from the point that even if they worked 24/7, which they didn't because they were building an army to convert out earth, there is no logical time period for them to develop a fleet, or a giant robot. RotC and age of steel would have been around end of april, with army of ghosts and doomsday being mid to late june. with both stories being set in present day, 2 months is not enough time to build a foot army and a space fleet. i doubt a space fleet was on their to do list in the 2 months after their creation.Mr Hat And Clogs 14:19, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I started the topic just to tell people that the Cybermen don't have to be Mondasian Cybermen and some of the people here are just ridiculous, so let's just get this straight:
 * River Song did say Cyberships in the Pandorica Opens, and the Cybermen are shown to have time travelled...These are shown in the series.
 * A large number of Cybermen lives in the Void and possess Dalek technology.
 * River Song did say Cyberships in the Pandorica Opens, and the Cybermen are shown to have time travelled...These are shown in the series.
 * A large number of Cybermen lives in the Void and possess Dalek technology.
 * The Cyberking is a ship, and we do not know what it is capable of, especially when it's built in an era with more advanced technology.


 * The Cybus Cybermen do have individualities as shown by Pete World's Jackie Tyler. The Cybus Cybermen said specifically that they do have the concept of elegance in the Battle of Canary Wharf. The Cyber Controller is dead and Cybus Industry is practically long gone, so the Cybermen have every reason to change their logo.


 * The 'modified Telos logo' is modified so much that it is in the shape of the helmet of a Cybus Cyberman. Since the Cybus Cybermen and Mondasian Cybermen are two different races, that's sort of like saying that if you see a Dalek having a Dalek-faced logo somewhere, then you can confirm that it's a 'modified Telos logo' and you can assume that it's related to Mondasian Cybermen.


 * To Mr Hat And Clogs, how do you come up with the conclusion that "it is logical to assume parallel earth is on the same time line as us and those dimension jumps don't travel in time", there's no logic to it...In fact it is counter-intuitive to imagine that a new race that has just been created 3-4 months ago developed technology that allows them to travel through dimensions. Moreover, most people here assumed that if these were Cybus Cybermen, they would be coming from the Void, not Pete's World.


 * In addition, your "working for 24/7" Cybermen does not seem Cybus Cybermen at all; they hadn't been shown to convert a single human in The Next Doctor; instead, they used the resource to build a ship and Cybershades to prepare for massive conversion. Even in their first appearance, they have taken people to the Cyber-Controller instead of just converting them first. Most people would have a hard time recognizing what you said as Cybus Cybermen.--203.168.176.42 19:09, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes its me again, can I kindly ask to all of you "They escaped from the void" theorist to explain on simple flaw in your flawed argument, HOW DID THEY GET OUT? 1) The doctor said there was no way with out ripping the universe appart, it seems surprising that he wouldn't have noticed something like that if it was open long enough for thousands to escape. The only reason there were ones in the next doctor was that the daleks doomsday device weakened the barrier and those ones were all in victorian england not prehistoric antartica, and they were also defeated.


 * Except these Cybermen are no longer in Victorian England as The Next Doctor never happened and they could be anywhere. --203.168.176.42 01:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

2) To contiue my argument I'm going to guess your response and tell you why thats flawed, someones bound to say "maybe they found a way to break out of the void" if thats so would the doctor really lock them in there if they could break out? Then you are going to reply "The must be smarter than he thought" and yes I admit that is plausable and they could have got the technolagy to break out form deconstructing there numbers, yes that all makes sense but it still doesn't explain how they got to the past or how if it was opened for long enough that the doctor wouldn't notice the universe falling apart. also if there was a way out surly the daleks who are smarter and have better acces to technolagy would have done so, so why are there millions of daleks there with them?


 * Unrelated to what I said in (1), throughout the entire history of Doctor Who, pretty much anything the Doctor locks in anywhere gets out.
 * How did they get to Victorian England? Not to mention that they could have first arrived at a far-future with time travelling technology and did considerable conquering before one conquering ship got caught in the Timestorm.
 * They were in stasis, so I doubt that the Universe would fall apart or even have any noticeable effects for the Doctor to observe. The Daleks and other beings have travelled to the past throughout Doctor Who, and more often than not, the Doctor just bump into them in his travel and weren't there to chase after a target.
 * The Daleks didn't get out in The Next Doctor. It is pretty obvious that the technology the Cybus Cybermen stole in the Void was necessary for getting out of the Void. Moreover, even if the Daleks got out, it's counter-intuitive to think that they would hang around the Cybermen on a Cybership that crashed (especially when RTD-era Daleks can survive in space); the most likely thing would be that these Daleks would be in a future Doctor Who adventure in a different time and place. --203.168.176.42 01:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

3) Someone is also bound to say "How do we know about the timeline, just because the were buried for thousands of years, what says this is set in the present" and that I will except is never clarified but from the 21st centurry technolagy and look and everyday things we have and nothing advamced I thinks its safe to assume that they are in or near the present.


 * Able to understand/analyse Nano-virus; extremely high-tech stuff in an archaeological digging site like heavy password gates, password locker, equipments to view and modify nano-structures: since the Doctor didn't suspect Meadows based on her knowledge, it is probably at least near future. --203.168.176.42 01:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

4) Another person is going to say "Hey wait I've got it, they are the ones from the next doctor, the doctor sent them back in time didn't he and this is where they ended up" sadly again that has flaws, for one thing he sent them into a time loop which can only be broken one way, and thousand of cybermen most likely couldn't do it. The next hole Could someone fill is if they are from the next doctor where did they get the ship from? If they had it why go to all the trouble of building the Cyber king, they could have just used there ship.


 * The Doctor sent them to what?!? Where did you get that from? I can't recall the episode ever mentioning anything about "a time loop" or "sending the Cybermen back in time".


 * First of all, again, as an alternative to what I said in (1), the Cybus Cybermen could easily get out from the time vortex as long as they managed to survive in there, and the number of them is completely irrelevant...not to mention that thousand of Cybermen would be a lot....


 * Again, alternative to (1): (a) We don't know if the Cybus Cybermen didn't have another ship in the Next Doctor, they are certainly abandoning their ship in the Blood of the Cybermen.


 * (b) We don't know if the Cyberking was not a modified Cybership that crashed on Earth or the other way around. Neither do we know what the ship in Blood of the Cybermen looks like.


 * (c) We don't know if this was their first stop; if they had time to change their logos and build cybermats and nano-viruses, then they probably had time to build a ship...(again, they could be from the future given that they were caught in a timestorm).


 * Back to (1), if they are the Next Doctor's Cybermen without the Next Doctor happening, then they had an indefinite amount of time to build anything given that they could have been in anywhere at anytime. --203.168.176.42 01:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

5) Finally if they escaped the void then where are the daleks? If through some unexplainable way the cybermen found away out wouldn't the daleks have followed them? So where are they?


 * Expanding on (2), in The End of Time, where are the Daleks? In Stolen Earth, why did Davros had to make Daleks out of his own flesh when Dalek Caan could have just taken 1 additional Dalek with him from the Time War for cloning? Where are the Cybermen in The Stolen Earth, why did they not followed Rose?


 * You are asking the writers to explain everything in such detail that would take much more than the air time. The assumption is too far off in that: (a) You assume the Daleks have to follow them despite that we don't know what happened in the Void: did the Cybermen and the Daleks stayed close to each other after they entered the Void? Did the Daleks survive (considering that the Cult of Skaro didn't live in the Void, they lived in a voidship)? Did the Daleks not get out before the Cybermen and is in some different place/time? Does the Cybermen's way of transportation out of the Void allow unlimited passengers or is it compatible with Daleks? If it were originally Dalek technology, did the Cybermen not modify it to exclude Daleks?


 * (b) Even if they got out together, you assumed the Timestorm is the first thing they encountered. If it's not, then it's illogical for the Daleks to hang around the Cybermen for so long, but even if it is: Did the Timestorm placed everyone in the exact same place and time? Is it logical for the Daleks to be on a bloody Cybership when they could fly in space? Would the Daleks be frozen with the Cybermen when Daleks can survive in colder temperature in the space? Would Daleks hang out with a bunch of frozen Cybermen for thousands of years if the Daleks were not frozen? --203.168.176.42 01:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

On a unrealated side to the argument something else I was wondering, why would the animators go to the trouble of changing the chest insign if it wasn't ment to mean something, can someone answer that? General MGD 109


 * How does it's suppose to mean something equate to them being Mondasian? There's no reason to suggest that if something is changed, it's Mondasian. The Cybermats are changed, so they are Cybus? First of all, the animators didn't change the chest logo animation, considering that the Cybermen were not animated in the first place. Secondly, design changes has occurred in Daleks, sonic screwdriver, TARDIS without real significance and minor issues are brought up to explain the changes. Thirdly, the change could mean something about Cybus Cybermen such as delcaration of independence, declaration as a new race, etc. A logo change is weak support of Mondasian origin. --203.168.176.42 01:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * How did they get out?
 * 1)There are several points when it could have happened. One; during the events of Journey's End at the same time as The Next Doctor ones, but these ones fell thousands of years rather than hundreds; Two; they escaped because of the cracks, which were noted to have been affecting all universes.
 * 2)How would the Doctor know for sure what is in the void etc, as he has never been in it himself, nor has he tried to escape. All he knows about it is what he has been told, he has never been there.
 * 5)We simply don't know. But just because one species did, doesn't mean the other has to. Perhaps the Cybermen did defeat the Daleks in the void, or managed to lock them inside the genesis ark somehow.
 * As for the logo, like Moffat has said; new series, new look. --The Thirteenth Doctor 18:48, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah I agree with the Thirteenth doctor that they escaped during the same time as the next doctor ones. I agree that a little more cybermen escaped when the daleks weakened the walls between realitys in journeys' end and they fell into a different time and obviously a different planet where they could rebuild becoming a space faring race seen in the pandorica opens and the blood of the cybermen. Another theory though its fanwanking, is the void ship got sucked into the void too maybe some cybusmen got to it first before the Daleks [ I personally don't think they could beat the daleks] and fled the void not long after being sucked in to it. They fled to another planet besides earth maybe a less advanced one which the doctor did not frequently visit where they were able to rebuild though this would create a tiny rip between reality's without torchwood fucking with it like in army of ghosts it would just seal itself up LOL maybe the last little crack between universes that the doctor visited rose through was caused by this. At any rate Moff maybe should have provided a little explanation to this int he series five two parter say what you will about RTD at least he always had an explanation for how they had survived. User/Winehousefan, 20:45, July 20, 2010 [UTC]
 * They don't have to, The Next Doctor's Cybermen are now missing since the event did not happen, and they had a Cyberlord. --203.168.176.42 01:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry to break it to you, but Steven Moffat did say a while ago that the Cyberan seen in The Pandorica Opens was in fact NOT Cybus. He said the only reason it looked Cybus was because they didn't have the budger to re-design it, but explain that is why River mentioned Cyberships and why it has a human skull, not a brain. But yeah, go on and deny that. That's what Doctor Who fans do, ignore what the head writers say because they love to be controversial... Delton Menace 23:51, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * In the actual episode itself, it is the Cybus Cybermen that appear. They have the logo. No matter what Moffat says, they are not different ones. It's like him saying the Ironsides are new Daleks but they look the same because they ran out of money. They didn't have the budget, so they didn't introduce the new ones. Simple. As for the Cyberships and the skull... the Cyberman have just as much possibility to develop Cyberships as any other species has to develop ships. And for the skull... well... that was explained in Torchwood's Cyberwoman. They started converting whole bodies, not just the brain. We don't deny the head writer. We simply go by what is on screen first. --The Thirteenth Doctor 14:09, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry to break it to you, but Steven Moffat did say a while ago that the Cyberan seen in The Pandorica Opens was in fact NOT Cybus. He said the only reason it looked Cybus was because they didn't have the budger to re-design it, but explain that is why River mentioned Cyberships and why it has a human skull, not a brain. But yeah, go on and deny that. That's what Doctor Who fans do, ignore what the head writers say because they love to be controversial... Delton Menace 23:51, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * In the actual episode itself, it is the Cybus Cybermen that appear. They have the logo. No matter what Moffat says, they are not different ones. It's like him saying the Ironsides are new Daleks but they look the same because they ran out of money. They didn't have the budget, so they didn't introduce the new ones. Simple. As for the Cyberships and the skull... the Cyberman have just as much possibility to develop Cyberships as any other species has to develop ships. And for the skull... well... that was explained in Torchwood's Cyberwoman. They started converting whole bodies, not just the brain. We don't deny the head writer. We simply go by what is on screen first. --The Thirteenth Doctor 14:09, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * In the actual episode itself, it is the Cybus Cybermen that appear. They have the logo. No matter what Moffat says, they are not different ones. It's like him saying the Ironsides are new Daleks but they look the same because they ran out of money. They didn't have the budget, so they didn't introduce the new ones. Simple. As for the Cyberships and the skull... the Cyberman have just as much possibility to develop Cyberships as any other species has to develop ships. And for the skull... well... that was explained in Torchwood's Cyberwoman. They started converting whole bodies, not just the brain. We don't deny the head writer. We simply go by what is on screen first. --The Thirteenth Doctor 14:09, February 17, 2011 (UTC)