Talk:Doctor Who Wiki

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Redesign
Following on from Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Updating the main page & theme, I have (potentially temporarily) reopened this page to act as a place to continued discussing the redesign of the main page. To provide more focus, transmats have their own section on this page.

To get the ball rolling (again), here's some ideas I have:
 * Some module showing new releases. I have a draft for this demonstrated on this page. Perhaps it could work better in the sidebar, though?
 * Some module highlighting current key characters in recent releases. During larger events, such as the airing of a new series on TV or the release of a major audio, all slots on this module could be given over to these key characters.
 * Some module highlighting people's birthdays. I have a highly glitchy proof of concept on this page (you may need to purge the page twice to make it work).
 * Some module highligting Doctor Who 's 60th anniversary.

I'm interested to know if anyone else has any thoughts and ideas. Bongo50  ☎  20:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but it seems to me that we should future proof this new page, since it takes us so long to redesign these things.


 * I think our home page should, very simply, start with pictures of the first 14 Doctors. Maybe the first 16 (War + Fugitive). I think when people come here, they're often curious about the franchise. Just having the entire history of the show laid out would be a really fun trick.


 * Then we can have a segment linking to the latest TV story. How does everyone feel about this? OS25🤙☎️ 20:40, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I did a real rough mockup in GIMP of what I'd suggest, obviously a first draft and subject to change. I didn't edit sidebar stuff at all, so just don't bother with that. The point is more how much I cut out and how I reworded/reorganized some things. That's the level of minimalism I'd like to see, personally. We could expand on some of that, maybe also have a section for new editors, etc. But there was so much bloat. This is way closer to my ideal. Najawin ☎  01:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Transmats
This discussion is continuing on from Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Updating the main page & theme. Bongo50  ☎  20:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Deciding the transmat content
Hey, so I'm gonna continue where we left off - here's the current draft of the new transmats, for reference.

I think we've almost wrapped-up the discussion surrounding the layout + the transmat contents, but I want to be 100% sure before moving on to the next step (ironing out the details + the individual designs)

The new transmats, as they currently stand, are entirely about real-world media - we have representation for the main series, the TV spin-offs, Big Finish, DWM, and the various print publishers.

This is a little different to the existing transmats (included here for reference), which is 50% media, 50% in-universe stuff. I've seen differing sentiments, in regards to this:


 * From what I can gather, Najawin would prefer to retain in-universe related transmats.
 * In the above section, Bongo50  mentions creating a module highlighting key characters on the main page, while OS25 put forward the idea of prominently featuring pictures of all the mainline Doctors, etc.
 * In theory, if one or more of these concepts were implemented, I'd argue the in-universe related transmats will become increasingly redundant.
 * (I specifically mentioned having a semi-randomised template, with a table showing different links to different characters, articles, etc. at different times, but I don't want to get too off-track.)

If it becomes clear there's an overwhelming desire to retain the in-universe related transmats, I'll willingly go back to the drawing board and hash out a new layout. Otherwise, I think we should move forward, and start figuring out all the fine details (for which I have many more thoughts + questions to share - but one thing at a time!)

So yeah, what do people think? TheGreatGabester ☎  14:26, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Every time I see this transmat, I think it looks great, but it's so weird that Doctor Who Magazine is the highest, and is grouped with the TV shows. I'm absolutely certain people would click that thinking it's just the logo for the TV show. OS25🤙☎️ 14:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * That's a fair point - I just shifted the top side around so all the spin-offs are on the left side, is that better? TheGreatGabester ☎  15:45, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah I think so. But it does feel like we could easily split SJA and Torchwoood, then move DWM down to the bottom. like, I really don't think we need something like Candy Jar. OS25🤙☎️ 15:47, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'd be happy to do that, though I doubt Najawin will be on board with it, as they made clear in the old Slot 3 thread. TheGreatGabester ☎  17:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

tbh, I'm not sure if we need to keep the IU transmats. I understand why they exist. But they need updating. My earlier proposal kept them because I felt it would be a more radical change to get rid of them, and I asked about keeping them because, well, a lot of work went into them and there's probably reasons to have them! (I haven't gotten that far in my historical dive on the forums yet.)

I'm at least a little skeptical - I don't know if most users will click on a semi-random topic on the front page and want to see a random page related to that semi-random topic, but, then again, most users won't go to the front page, they'll search for what they're looking for and leave. But, again, I dunno. I'm not sure Bongo's proposal fills quite the same niche though.

As for splitting SJA/Torchwood, let me note that I don't want to merge the two, I wanted to merge SJA/K9, and Torchwood/Class. I wanted to have groupings that encouraged people to treat the shows as for similar(ish) demographic groups. I think merging SJA/Torchwood is a bad idea, but I also think letting each show have its own transmat is a bad idea, and a violation of T:NPOV. The only reason this is being done is because other people have decided to focus on the production circumstances of the various entities, rather than something like the medium, which has dramatically increased clutter. (Also, Candy Jar has published/been around more/longer than Arcbeatle, surely if anyone goes it's them. No offense to the Arcbeatle fans/employees.) Najawin ☎  19:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I just feel this T:NPOV argument is a non-starter. If this was really constituted a violation of the rules, then the original transmats should’ve never been approved in the first place! I want this design to reference + connect to as much stuff as possible, but at the end of the day, it’s a graphic and visual overview, not an article. I also don’t understand the assertion that the current approach has led to more clutter. TheGreatGabester ☎  19:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * So I've recently discussed some of the genesis of T:NPOV at the temp forums, I think you read that, but I'm not sure. Suffice it to say that it's far from clear that it's a non-starter, it seems to line up with the original intent of User:Mantrid. (To be fair, the discussion was concerning an article, but the wording Mantrid used was very broad.) Why would these transmats be made even if they violated the NPOV? There's a simple answer to that, the wiki wasn't being consistent in applying the NPOV. Which is something many of us had criticized the wiki for. (Again, the dropdown at the top didn't list EU characters back when the forums were up, and some of us had to push hard to change that.) (I note also that even the person who wrote up T:NPOV has been rather staunchly against EU media in many different ways at different times. So while the policy is there, that doesn't mean it's applied correctly.) It's nontrivial that T:NPOV just applies to articles, the first part seems to apply to the entire wiki. At minimum it's in violation of the spirit of T:NPOV.


 * On the clutter issue, I did specifically mean compared to my proposal. You have quite a few more media transmats than I proposed, is all. Najawin ☎  21:12, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, it’d be great to get other perspectives on this matter. I’m not an expert on the policy; all I’ll say is, it seems strange to treat the origins of a policy as if it were holy scripture, that just seems like a strange way to approach issues. TheGreatGabester ☎  22:47, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I mean, it's a pretty standard reading on how to interpret policies - often we look at the surrounding context to where policy originates as to how precisely to interpret it. (See, for instance, what User:NoNotTheMemes did just recently at Talk:Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration.) It's not the only one. And far be it from me to suggest that everyone has to ultimately accept my reading of the policy as The One True Reading. But it's both grounded in a standard reading of how to interpret policies, along with past implementations of the policy of question. So it's clearly not a non-starter. Najawin ☎  00:04, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I’m just frustrated, because it seems like we’re going round in circles having these kinds of debates. That policy is specifically about writing, is it not? I just feel that this is a pedantic point and it’s not productive or necessary to discuss it any further. Even bearing in mind that the policy need not apply here, I’ve tried to make it as even-handed as possible. But at some point, you have to say “good enough”, and move on. Because otherwise, I fear this discussion will drag on far longer than it needs to. Trying to find some arbitrary ‘perfect’ solution to this supposed issue is not worth the time. TheGreatGabester ☎  00:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * So there are sections about T:NPOV that are specifically about writing. But the very first bit about it is not clearly about solely writing. The origin of the policy was in a conversation about canon policy for writing articles, but the phrasing used was very broad.


 * But let's step back a second and ask, why are we discussing it right now? Well, there was discussion about splitting the SJA/Torchwood transmat, and I made it clear that I don't think the current transmat structure is optimal, but having a transmat for every TV show is a violation of T:NPOV. (I didn't even ask for one transmat for TV spinoffs together! Originally I proposed one for the old ones, one for the upcoming ones, but I've been willing to compromise even further than that.)


 * However, this statement was apparently controversial, and you suggested that my reading of T:NPOV is untenable. It's very much not. That's what prompted this discussion. Najawin ☎  01:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree, that opening paragraph is clearly about writing! It starts by talking about writing, and ends by talking about writing. One sentence says “give all sources equal weight”, which is still in the context of a paragraph that’s all about writing; I maintain that this point is rather pedantic. You’re right to say the phrasing of that one sentence is broad, but you refuse to accept the context of that surrounding paragraph. TheGreatGabester ☎  10:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello hello hello. Here to cut the Gordian knot to hopefully break us out of the loop: although we moved this discussion out of the Temp Forums to free up a slot and hopefully, dynamise the conversation, the present discussion still has the "force" of a Forum thread, by which I mean that it is capable of altering policy. Regardless of the current wording of T:NPOV, it would be perfectly possible for this discussion to introduce a new exception to be mentioned explicitly on that policy page, whereby the main page/the Transmats are exempt from the normal application of T:NPOV.


 * Granting that this is possible, I personally think this is a good and even, if we make certain assumptions, a necessary idea, although that is not necessarily an endorsement of the specific setup above. There are way too many branches of the DWU for it to be possible to put them all on a graphic and have it still be legible. As a sanity check, most of the not-wes would already consider it highly radical of us to include the likes of Cutaway and Candy Jar on the home page on the same level as something like DWM; if what we're worried about is conveying the Wiki's general ethos of treating the EU equally, something like this graphic will, IMO, achieve it. I'm intuitively certain that no one is going to look at something like this mockup and think "ah, I see Torchwood and SJA have separate listings whereas the different Cutaway spin-offs don't, so this Wiki must buy into TV-primacy and tiered-canon thinking". Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 10:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello hello hello hello. One upped ya'.


 * Thank you, you've made some points I was struggling to articulate. Legibility ought to be the guiding principle when designing any kind of visual overview/graphic. If you try to strictly apply writing-centric rules to the realm of graphic design, of course you'll run into problems; those rules were not designed to address this matter.


 * By the way, have posted a new draft. Added radial gradients, made the lines slimmer; one of the lines is now over-extended, to accentuate the overall diagonial-ish composition. TheGreatGabester ☎  14:37, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Since you've been clear that you're not thrilled with this line of discussion I'll keep it brief. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree. What is not reasonable is to maintain that my point is a non starter when I've cited textual evidence, precedent, and original intent. Whether or not these things are how you care to interpret policy - it's perfectly reasonably to only care about the text, and to insist that I need far more textual evidence than I've provided - it's frankly ridiculous to suggest that I don't have good reason for acting the way I do.


 * Moving on to the point of the graphic, I feel like this is a failure to take yes for an answer. We're arguing right now, not over whether TV should have a single graphic, nobody has suggested that, or even two (one for the main show, one for spinoffs). We're discussing whether we should set the shows we already know of at three transmats, or more, up to five. (And, indeed, the current graphic has four.) I already compromised on my idea that we put all the dead and gone spinoffs in one transmat. At the minimum here we're still ranking the (medium, publisher) pair (well, modulo K9) three times higher than any other on this graphic. Given that we're pretty sure more spinoffs are coming, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that we should try to merge Class/Torchwood, K9/SJC. (Especially since there was a thread on whether or not to add Class to the transmats on the old forums and the conclusion was to not do so - albeit, imo, for poor reasons, as well as the general, well, everything, of K9.)


 * I'm also, you know, realistic, and have given up on my idea that the new spinoffs be shunted off to a single transmat. I think it's pretty clear that each new spinoff is going to have its own transmat at this point. The concern is just why we're prioritizing shows that have run their course over EU content that hasn't. (And before someone makes the obvious responses, remember that I wanted the VNAs/PDAs/EDAs/NSAs to be a single transmat, and Big Finish is already up there.) Najawin ☎  19:14, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I apologise for the non-starter comment, maybe that was going a bit far. However, I think we have to honour legibility and practicality, as Scrooge says, and if that means making an exception to T:POV, then so be it. There are times where it’s appropriate to strictly enforce rules without question, but some issues ought to be approached with more flexibility.


 * If I haven’t explained it clearly enough already, the ultimate goal is to have four transmats for spin-off shows, in total. With the fourth RTD2 transmat being added at the appropriate time (probably above Class, to make everything as symmetrical as possible). That still leaves you with nine other transmats covering print media + Big Finish; that’s over two thirds. The problem, though, is that any notion of “fairness” is highly subjective. You can say that the nine transmats are too little, too many, etc., but ultimately there’s no objective yardstick to decide this. So, to reiterate, there is a need to move on from this topic, because I’m not interested in debating this forever. TheGreatGabester ☎  12:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Well it was mentioned one time, in a thread that was closed an hour later and shunted us over here. (So I just now saw it, after you mentioned it again!) I mean, fair enough on that point. But at this juncture I'm not convinced that we're best serving the needs of our readers. Why are all the RtD2 era spinoffs under 1 transmat? Why do they have "less priority", as it were, than K9/Class and TW/SJA? Your decision to make things about production rather than just medium and/or intended audience is having some really weird implications. I just fundamentally don't understand it. If this is a point about graphic design on our front page, why would we prioritize production circumstances for how we split things up? Najawin ☎  20:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I never said it was purely about production, it was to do with era as well, and chronology. But I'll explain my thought process further. To my mind, Torchwood and SJA are far more closely associated, with them even crossing over in the S4 finale; that's why they're in a shared RTD1 transmat. Those two were joined at the hip from a production standpoint, both branching from the revival. However, K9/SJA have nothing in common besides a vaguely similar tone, as with TW/Class. It's a matter of preference, but I'd posit the time + context in which these shows were made, and their relationships with each other is the far more significant factor. Again, it's just a matter of preference, though. Don't understand the less priority argument, as under this proposal, RTD1 and RTD2 would have one transmat each. Am also just confused at this point, because at different times, you've been arguing for more and less show-centric transmats, I'm finding it hard to keep track. TheGreatGabester ☎  11:51, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I mean, I'd consider K9 to be from the same "era" (whatever that means if we're not talking about production) as TW/SJA, insofar as it's off chronologically, this is simply because production took a while to get rolling. So I don't think that explanation works. I also don't think the crossover explanation works, as for how marginal the references are to the shows generally. (Each one had like, what, 3 characters? SJA might have had 4, but two K9/Mr Smith.) So all we're left with is the production angle. Which, as I stated, I think is a mistake.


 * Now, you could characterize what the shows I've highlighted as "vaguely similar tone", but instead let me be clear what you're referring to here. Intended demographic is what's similar between them. This entails a "vaguely similar tone", but it's rather a more fundamental issue, and it's something we should be cognizant of.


 * My ideal situation would be 1 transmat for old shows, 1 for new. But I don't think this will happen, and I've accepted that. After that, I think we should minimize the number of transmats for old shows, they're not particularly relevant at the present time, but be cognizant of the fact that users coming to our site will want to see transmats for the new ones. I think doing the reverse is perhaps the worst option possible, as it will only serve to confuse readers.


 * But I don't think we're convincing the other, so perhaps we need other people to comment. Najawin ☎  19:11, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, even if the current layout gets implemented, more or less in its current state, it's by no means set in stone. I'm putting together a "transmat kit" + designing the graphic in such a way so it can easily be modified/updated, either by myself, or someone else. So there's no reason to stress over it. In my opinion, it would be better to implement a new iteration of the transmats sooner rather than later, and if they need updating further down the line, they can be without too much effort.


 * And I agree, it'd be great to hear from some other commenters. TheGreatGabester ☎  22:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Refining the graphic + ironing out the details
Sometime in the next few days, I'll share a lengthy-ish post outlining various thoughts/questions about the fine details of the new transmats. Stuff like colour palette, the Gallifreyan-esque circular symbols, the 'flatness' of the images, etc. TheGreatGabester ☎  14:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, that “experimenting with the wiki’s design!” message ought to link to here now, strange it hasn’t been updated. TheGreatGabester ☎  17:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)