Howling:Problems with the Miracle

Okay, there's a few things about Miracle Day that I don't understand.

1. So Jack's immortal blood caused the Miracle. Jack's blood, that we can assume has some of the healing properties of his body. And that magical healing property that gives Jack his immortality, is spread throygh morphic field. Why then, is the miracle immortality completely different? Miracle immortality means people who have been fatally or terminally injured are able to live without the necessary body functions to do so. But Jack doesn't do that. The point with Jack is that he can die, but then his body reheals until his body has the basic neccessities to sustain life, before he is ressurected. Take the exploded man in Miracle Day and the exploded Jack in Children of Earth. The guy in MD had been fried to a crisp, and hus body could not have been able to sustain even the slightest bit if life. Jack in COE was also blown to bits with a bomb in his stomach, and rehealed. But he only managed to resurrect the second his body had healed enough to keep him alive. He still was horifically burnt, and did resemble something from a fat fryer, but it's certainly possible to live through that, and some people have. Jack said the miracle made people feel they have to go on, but Jack MUST go on. His immortality is more defined by his healing ability, not his power to live through major injuries to the body.

2. Rex shoots the Gentleman in the throat and that stops him talking. Why should it? We saw earlier on that dismembered limbs can still be moved because they retain connection to the body. Why can't a few fragments of throat perfom their function? Could it be that the parts were so small that the connection was broken, like a cat 1 in a module? I'm at least surprised that Gwen assumed he wouldn't be able to talk after all she had seen.

3. Why should it mortalise Jack? It shouldn't. He's a fixed point in time and space. A nuclear bomb in his stomach and a life-devouring demon couldn't kill him, so why can the Earth's vagina manage to stop his healing? Perhaps the Blessing was finding a way to make his wounds last, perhaps by creating the wound over and over again at a faster speed than his body could sew it beack together. That wound on his arm culd potentially have stayed there for the whole of the Miracle, we never saw it heal, so perhaps the blessing was acting like throwing Jack in acid, creating injuries faster than the body could heal them, and the whole Miracle was just a side effect?

4. Critics complained that at first cat 1s were able to walk around like normal human beings, but all of a sudden they were all injured in camps. Can I just point out that not all cat 1s were sent to the camps, and not all were lying in befs unable to move. It was only later that the government forced people to go to camps, because theyw anted to treat the more grotesquely injured first, and then see to less injured people later in a different way. As it was, the secret was out, so the government had to force people to the incinerators.

94.72.209.209talk to me 14:03, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

I don't like the entire concept of the series and I think it's severely flawed but one possible reason for 3 (and maybe 1 too) is that Jack's fixed point property, or let's call it Bad Wolf Effect for simiplicity, identifies Jack as the largest body composed of Jack's biological material. The Morphic Field was identified as Jack by the Bad Wolf Effect simply because it was bigger than Jack. Suppose Jack was harmed and part of his tissues fall off, we know that small fraction of tissues don't grow into a Jack and instead, only the main body of Jack recovers. Like that small fraction of tissues, Jack is abandoned by the Bad Wolf Effect due to the Morphic Field being the bigger Jack. This may partially explain 1, as recovering the entire human race and all their sicknesses and wounds would take substantially longer and so do delaying their aging, so the effect was so small that they were not observable in the duration of the series. Now we come to the problematic non-dying property, the only idea that I can think of that remotely makes sense is the Bad Wolf Effect is not targetting any single individual but the Morphic Field which for some mystical timey wimey reason creates this effect as you can't have entire Morphic Field dying then resurrecting for 1 harmed individual. Keeping the morphic field alive would result in not death and resurrections but a continual existence of the consciousness of the individuals. Still, I think the entire idea is stupid and the revelation was a big letdown and the entire series was quite pointless. --222.166.181.32talk to me 17:16, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

I actually enjoyed the series but couldn't fpr the life of me understand why fixed point immortality cpuld be anything to do with miracle immortality. However if you think about it both immortalities are completely opposite. Fixed Point immortality means the body MUST exist, and miracle immortality means the conscience MUST exist. Seeing as hiw the blessing had a "switching" effect then perhaps thats why FP immortality was different from MD immortality. But 3 is still quite a weird one. 94.72.209.209talk to me 17:37, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

If I recall from Utopia, Jack asked the Doctor if he could ever become mortal again, and the Doctor said that he didn't know. Jack's status as a fixed point in time isn't absolute, but even the Doctor didn't know of anything powerful enough to reverse it. The Blessing, however, is more powerful than anything that Torchwood has encountered, and most of what the Doctor has. It's morphic field was just powerful enough to swap Jack's immortality with the rest of humanity's mortality. If Jack had left the range of the morphic field, and gone to Raxicoricofalapatorius or something, then he probably would have been able to die. However, while he was on Earth, the Blessing's morphic field was able to cancel out the effects of the Bad Wolf making him a fixed point. It is also a bit pointless to say that a plot point doesn't make sense, when it involves two made up technologies that are so disconnected from reality that none of us could begin to understand them. Icecreamdif talk to me 08:32, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Jack being a "fixed point in time" doesn't conflict with him being mortal during the Miracle -- as long as he doesn't actually die. We saw, in The Wedding of River Song, that a "fixed point in time" isn't necessarily something that cannot be changed; it's just that the consequences of changing it are catastrophic. When the Doctor was telling Donna about the subject, inside Vesuvius in The Fires of Pompeii, he described a "fixed point in time" as something that "must not" be changed. That choice of words implies that changing it is possible. There's nothing in either Torchwood or Doctor Who to rule out the possibility that Jack could have been killed during the Miracle, with the consequence that time would have collapsed the way it did when River contrived to prevent herself shooting what she thought was the Doctor. --89.241.72.64talk to me 18:31, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

I had considered this myself but there's one problem with it. We know that Jack reheals his body before he can resurrect. If you threw him in Lava he would stay dead because each time his body attempted to reheal it would be fried to a crisp again. So technically he would be dead for potentially a very long time. However eventually the lava would drain away or something like that and he'd come back to life after what could have been a good couple thousand of years. It's the same with killing him on Miracle Day. His body would die and rot away but when the world ends a few million years later the remaining atoms of Jack would float out of the vicinity of the morphic field and he would be renedered immortal again. Said specks of Jack's remains could float into the atmosphere of another planet, his body would reheal and he would resurrect. As has been proved numerous times in both shows, you can't kill Jack - the best you can do is delay his resurrection. Whatever inventive way of killing him you find, rest assured, whether it be next week or next century or possibly even longer, one day, he WILL come back to life. 94.72.209.160talk to me 20:25, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

However, Jack didn't actually die on Miracle Day, he always survived through luck. Perhaps his fix-pointness was still working over the miracle, just working in a different way. What I mean is maybe Rose foresaw that his powers would be changed and ensured that he survived, by making sure that Jack got on a plane with the correct components for EDTA, or making sure Esther knew how to treat a gunshot wound. So perhaps even without his immortality Jack will still be a fixed point. 94.72.209.160talk to me 20:36, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

He was buried (and therefore repeatedly suffocated) for 2000 years, in TW: Exit Wounds. As soon as he was dug up, giving him air to breathe, he revived fully. Even lava would eventually cool and either be split open or weather away -- and Jack would be back. The key word, of course, is "eventually". 94 is quite right: "the best you can do is delay his resurrection". Even that might not do you much good. The man's a time traveller. It might be thousands of years, or longer, before he got out but he could then travel back in time to express his displeasure to you in person.

94 is also right that Jack being a "fixed point in time" means he stays alive -- somehow. It doesn't mean it always has to be by his "usual" mechanism of getting put back together again after being killed. He could "achieve immortality by not dying" (as Woody Allen put it, on a slightly different subject). --89.241.72.64talk to me 20:47, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Another thing I contemplated in the series was the Trickster's Brigade. We saw that Jack p****d them off in 1920s America and I was wondering if they ever considered revenge. A year after he thwarted their plans Jack was kidnapped by the mysterious three families and they took his blood, intending to find amd use it on the Blessing. It got me thinking, were the Families being used by the Trickster's Brigade? Perhaps each time Jack is killed and his resurrection delayed, they are able to feed from it. So perhaps they convinced the Families to cause the Miracle merely to feed off the chaos of a dead Jack for multiple millions of years, and as revenge? If not, then did the Trickster forgive him? Even if he did, I'm surprised he hasn't looked at a living, breathing, fixed point and come up with some hideously evil plan - we know he's good at that. 94.72.209.160talk to me 21:07, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Forgiveness doesn't seem to be the Trickster's strongest suit but the chaos of the Miracle would be "meat and drink" (his own words) to him, even apart from any considerations of revenge on Jack. --89.241.72.64talk to me 21:15, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

The Trickster is more about altering important points, to create chaos, not creating points to create chaos. For instance the world wars and vesuvius no doubt caused chaos but not the type of chaos that he fed off. So unless the Miracle was supposed to be stopped by the Doctor, and the Trickster prevented this, the only reason the Trickster would cause Miracle Day would be to feed off the fact that Jack was dead. My earlier theory about Jack's life being fixed without immortality is flawed, because Jack did technically die during Miracle Day, at the end of "The Blood Line", though it was only for a short while until the Miracle was negated. 94.72.209.160talk to me 22:54, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Jack has "technically" died many, many times -- and usually it was only for a short while. His death in The Blood Line wasn't much different, in that respect. --89.241.72.64talk to me 23:18, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

But if Jack's death on Miracle Day had created a whole universe like in TWORS, it would have happened in that short moment, regardless of the fact that the Miracle was about to be negated. It didn't, so the Miracle didn't really endanger a fixed point. The only way you could use Jack to create a crazy universe like in TWORS is perhaps if you killed him before the Daleks did. Maybe the Trickster has considered doing this, but is merely looking for the right time to do so. 94.72.209.160talk to me 23:30, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

I doubt that the Trickster is involved. Jack stopped their plans, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that they are angry about it, or even that they care. They must have thousands of plans to create chaos every day, and they can't possibly all work. What we've usually seen them do is change people's decisions to change history, and nothing about the Miracle seems to be that. I think the best assumption here would be that the morpic field somehow cancelled out Jack's fix-pointedness. While he was within the morphic field, he was no longer an immortal fixed point. Whether his dead body could be taken out of the morphic field to ressurect, however, is another matter, but Jack did honestly seem to believe that he could die for good throughout the season.Icecreamdif talk to me 08:41, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Bear in mind that when Jack was Exterminated he was probably dead for a good minute or so before he was resurrected. So we know that Jack can be mortal and dead and still come back to life a good while later. Jack was probably more worried that without him around Gwen would not know what to do about the Miracle. Jack has shown that he cares about her, and I doubt he'd forgive himself if he woke up millions of years later and remembered what kind of life he had left her with. 94.72.209.160talk to me 12:55, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Actually come to think of it looking at my second to last comment about Jack dying before the events on the GameStation, Bad Wolf Rose will probably have made him immortal anyway. She will have seen what the Trickster did and put it right because she knows that's how it's supposed to be. And also the fixed point we saw get changed in TWORS was only fixed because it happened at a tender point in time, so potentially the outcome of changing that fixed point could have been a lot more different than changing Jack's fix-pointedness, that is, if it's possible to do so, and I doubt it is. 94.72.209.160talk to me 18:05, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

The thing I don't get though, the three families never actually explained WHY they caused miracle day. Could it be that their only intention was to mortalise Jack, and they never actually wanted humans to be miraclised? 178.78.81.210talk to me 23:03, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

didn't someone mention something about the families wanting control over life and death? Imamadmad talk to me 03:16, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

It was a pretty overly complicated and elaborate plan, but it had something to do with destroying the economy so that they could take over or something. Making everyone immortal was supposed to give the families power somehow anyway. Control over life and death was a theme, but I can't remember if that was the families' goal or not. I wish they'd hurry up and release the region 1 DVD so I can check.Icecreamdif talk to me 09:02, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

The Families claimed they wanted "to tear down in order to rebuild" if that helps. But why didthey send an assassin to dispose of Jack? Was it just to make sure there was no more mortal blood around? 178.78.81.210talk to me 10:50, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

icecreamdif, there is this little website i know called tv-links.eu which i think you will find helpful in your wait. try alternating between megavideo and videobb links. oh yes, and i didn't mention anything.

178, yes Imamadmad talk to me 11:29, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Or you could just wait for the DVD so you don't have to watch it with terrible quality and get stopped every two seconds and get asked to pay millions to carry on with the video...

Anyway, the Families could have been mind-controlled by the Trickster's Brigade to mortalise and destroy Jack. I know that's just speculation but that's what I like to think happened. 77.86.108.251talk to me 12:29, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

WARNING: THIS NEXT POST IS A REPLY TO AN OFF TOPIC PART MENTIONED ABOUT A RESOURCE THAT IS VERY USEFUL FOR VIEWING THE CONTENT THAT THIS WIKI IS ABOUT

77, it's actually every 72 minutes that it stops, which is why you have to alternate between the two players. and although the quality isn't the best, it's very useful if there is no dvd available to you or during the season if your tv station always releases episodes a week or more late, like it is here in australia. now back to the conversation. Imamadmad talk to me 12:37, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

The first thing I watched on Megavideo was the Torchwood episode Cyberwoman. It stopped around halfway through and unless my perception of time is terrible that episode lasts nothing like 72 minutes. 77.86.108.251talk to me 13:26, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think I'll just wait for the DVD, since there's only a month or something before it comes out. I think I had enough of low quality online versions of episodes back when there was no sign that the TV Movie would ever be released on region 1. Anyway, I doubt that the Trickster's Brigade was involved. They were going for an entirely different plan in the 20s, and Jack stopped them. Really, the Brigade was just a plot point to bring Jack to New York so that he could meet Angelo and the families. I think the Family-woman said that the e-mail was to lure Jack out of hiding so that the families could kill Jack to get rid of the last mortal blood. Ironically, of course, Jack wouldn't even have returned to Earth, known about the Miracle, or tried to stop them if they hadn't sent the e-mail, but they must have assumed that he was on the planet somewhere.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:07, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the TV movie on Dailymotion? Anyway, back on the subject, one thing that confused me in "Escape to L.A." was Ellis Hartley Monroe's eyeball. Surely it would have popped out with the pressure. Unless it was left in a perfect eyeball shaped space, I don't see how she could move it. 87.102.117.106talk to me 17:01, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

only use dailymotion for the classic series. there are much better websites for the rest. also, about the eyeball, maybe it wasn't squished. with the car surrounding her when she was crushed, there would have been pockets of space where the metal wasn't and maybe her eye just so happened to be in one of those spaces. Imamadmad talk to me 04:54, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Let's cause a Miracle, squish someone in a car and find out what happens. 87.102.117.106talk to me 12:55, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

That's what's known as "the scientific method" -- as practised by the Rani! --89.242.74.218talk to me 14:28, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Icecreamdif: how do you know for certain the Trickster was just a plot point?

Anyway, on problem number 3, we need to bear in mind that we don't know that much about the Blessing. It might be a little bit more than just "the Earth's vagina". In fact, there's nothing to disprove that the Blessing was created by another "Bad Wolf", meaning it would be of equal power to the time vortex, where Jack gets his immortality from. Both the Blessing and Jack could possibly be of equal power. 87.102.117.106talk to me 16:15, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, obviously I don't know for certain that the Trickster was just a plot point. However, given how little focus was put on him, and the fact that Torchwood is now being geared towards an American audience-a country in which only the first season of SJA has been aired, I doubt that the Trickster will be a major focus of any upcoming seasons of Torchwood. The idea that the Blessing is "the Earth's vagina" is one of the worst theories that I've heard, and that includes the theory on the Howling from about a year ago that Christopher Eccleston was the First Doctor and William Hartnell was the fifth or something. The Blessing is clearly some ridiculously powerful being that lives deep within the Earth. What it is or how it got there is unknown, but it could easily be of greater or equal power to Jack.Icecreamdif talk to me 04:26, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I was only quoting what the person who created the discussion said, and even then I think it was humourosly intended to put that in the description in the first place. 87.102.117.106talk to me 16:30, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

We don't really know enough about the Blessing. It could be the work of another Bad Wolf, or just a powerful alien life form. There was even a discussion that Jack was the Blessing. All these problems don't really matter because the Blessing might just be something that can only be summed up by technobabble. 77.86.9.25talk to me 17:12, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well the theory that Jack was the blessing was based solely on the fact that his blood was attracted to it. Now that the finale has come out, we have a different explanation (sort of) for why Jack's blood was attracted to it. We still don't know what the Blessing is, but that theory doesn't really fit any more.Icecreamdif talk to me 15:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

My guess is that it had something to do with the Racnoss. They are a race created by RTD and are easy to introduce to a new audience, so could potentially appear in a future episode if they decide to explore the Blessing in more detail. However at the same time I think they should start from scratch with Series 5 and not bother exploring the Blessing or the Families any more, it would be better to have something new, and leave the whole immortal Rex storyline to be explained through speculation. 94.72.237.220talk to me 18:49, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well if there is another season of Torchwood, then the families and Jilly will probably be back based on the ending to Miracle Day. They will also inevitably have to explore Rex's immortality, since he is now one of the main characters. The Blessing was buried though, and the families Plan B probably doesn't involve it.Icecreamdif talk to me 19:21, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'd rather they left the Families to one side and started with something new. The best thing about MD was it's sense of mystery. As it was broadcast, each week I kept coming up with new theories on who was behind the Miracle. A little disappoited with the big reveal, but I still enjoyed the speculation, so much so that I didn't even know Doctor Who Series 6 was on and actually missed Let's Kill Hitler. Having another Series with the Families would be a HUGE step back, and after looking at some of the critical reception for MD, it's a HUGE step back that RTD can't afford to take. 94.72.237.220talk to me 17:49, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I would be happy whether they brought the families back or went with a new enemy, as long as we get more Torchwood. However, based on the ending of Miracle Day, the plan seems to be to bring back the families and Jilly. Icecreamdif talk to me 18:18, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I heard somewhere that RTD has plans for one more series of Torchwood, one that is mainly about Gwen. There's not much that tells us but if the Families do appear in that series it will most likely be a seperate storyline, possibly with Rex and the CIA trying to track them down. 94.72.237.220talk to me 21:58, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I heard the same, in an interview with RTD (seen online somewhere), and "one more story mainly about Gwen" really doesn't tell us much. What's more, that was all he said. However, all it means is that, at the time of the interview, he had only that one story left to tell. He's a writer. Writers come up with ideas. Something may yet give him another story idea -- or another dozen. I know he's taking time out to look after his partner, so further stories (even the one about Gwen) aren't likely right now. Even if he's not consciously thinking about stories, which he probably isn't, that won't stop his subconscious working. Once circumstances change, new ideas may come to the surface. Notwithstanding what 94 said, another story with the Families wouldn't necessarily be "a huge step back". As always, it depends how it's done. Learning more about the Families would retrospectively affect our understanding of their role in Miracle Day, which could be a step back but could also be a step forward -- as I say, it depends how it's done. --78.146.190.234talk to me 22:45, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Keeping up with this format, Torchwood is destined to be doomed. Children of Earth was certainly very refreshing, but you can only do these storylines a certain number of times before people go "not again, world-wide crisis, why not just bloody end humanity instead of suffering endless catastrophes". You can't have every single episode about world wide crises, the wow factor wears off pretty soon. I think the 10 episode format is really too much, it feels like the storyline is dragging on and on and certain episodes have no focus. The resolution and problem cannot always be about Jack; one thing that amazes me is that are the people just brainless, Children of Earth and Miracle Day are both directly/indirectly caused by Jack, any sane individual would quickly seal him in the most secured place and prevents him from interacting with anything, he is, afterall, the guy who caused two extreme catastrophes to mankind. --～～～～

maybe that could be the next big plot point, world organisations trying to track down and kill jack to prevent something like this from happening again, but in the process starting a crisis which isn't as obvious to most people on the planet, something more subtle that those who aren't looking for it won't be able to find, but is still extremely threatening to mankind.

hey, i got an idea, why don't they do a season that's semi episodic but also partly one story, like the heavily arc based series of doctor who we just had. so there are different stories for each episode like in the first two series, but they are all towards a main goal more like CoE and MD. i don't know how it would be done, but it's just an idea. Imamadmad talk to me 23:54, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Illegible signature: Jack didn't "cause" either of those disasters, directly or indirectly. He happened to be involved when the British Government of the day did a shameful deal that led to the return of the 456 in Children of Earth. The 456 did the causing and the British Government made matters worse by trying a cover-up. He was used by the Families to cause the Miracle. It was the Families who did the causing. The supposedly "sane" individual who tried to isolate Jack would simply set things up for further disasters as the Families or people of similar inclinations tried to get hold of him to further their next scheme. Scapegoating Jack, which is what isolating him amounts to, would be a very human reaction and a deeply unintelligent one. It might even work, if Jack could reliably and irrevocably be killed. He can't be, so it wouldn't work. Nonetheless, there might indeed be a Torchwood story in the idea: the story of frightened idiots trying what illegible signature suggests and the disasters that follow from the attempt. --89.241.73.121talk to me 05:36, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

That's a pretty original idea. Maybe they can try to contain Jack, in some kind of box. Maybe then bury it under stonehenge or something. Where have I heard that before. Children of Earth and Miracle Day were easily the best seasons of Torchwood, so it would only make sense for them to follow that pattern. Continuing the Families' involvement, and making the whole thing a multi-season arc with a sense of continuity, is really the best way to avoid the problems of there being so many world crises. Anyway, I don't know how bad the situation with RTD's partner is, but if he had to give up all of his current American shows and move back to Wales, I'm guessing that it will be some time before he is able to work on another season of Torchwood.Icecreamdif talk to me 09:23, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

I created a discussion about this on Doctor Who Answers if anyone is interested: http://drwho.answers.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Good_concepts_for_Torchwood_series_5 94.72.237.220talk to me 09:51, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

There's a review of Miracle Day on the doctorwhotv site that's worth reading. Of particular relevance to this discussion is the paragraph headed: What didn’t work: the cause of the “miracle”. The review is at: http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/2011-in-review-torchwood-29280.htm. --89.240.249.16talk to me 02:12, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with most of what that review said "didn't work," but for now I'll focus on "the cause of the miracle" as you suggested. That section of the review didn't really add anything that hasn't been stated on here already. Miracle Day never suggested that Jack's immortality was genetic, they stated on multiple occasions that it wasn't genetic, and without knowing more about how the blessing's morphic fields and Jack's fix-pointedness work, there is no reason to believe that it should have been genetic for the miracle to work. The rest of that paragraph is just complaints about how the story unfolded to reveal where the miracle came from, which is not what we're discussing here. Personally, I liked that we didn't find out about the Families or the Blessing until towards the end of the season, but even if you believe that that was bad storytelling, it doesn't make the Miracle make any less sense.Icecreamdif talk to me 05:47, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

I disagreed with a fair amount of the review, too, and especially about Mekhi Phifer as Rex. As fault-finding, the "What didn’t work: lazy scriptwriting shortcuts – including the complete disregard of science" section had some very strong points (abysmal ignorance of the laws of motion, for example) and some very weak ones (such as implying Rhys wouldn't be inclined to kill Danes). Nonetheless, the review does give someone else's take on the subject and will be of interest to at least some of the people who've contributed here. Maybe you're right, though, that this discussion has faded out because nobody's got anything new to say about it. --89.242.68.111talk to me 08:33, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

I never said that I didn't think that the review was interesting, and I did enjoy reading it. I was merely saying that there were only about two sentences of the review that are relevant to this particular discussion, and the points made in those sentences have already been discussed. Icecreamdif talk to me 15:56, January 27, 2012 (UTC)