Howling:No Cybus Cybermen?

It's shown in The Pandorica Opens that Amy Pond doesn't appear to recognise a Cybermen of the Cybus variety when she sees one, and I think this is also the case in one of the Adventure Games, despite them having appeared in large numbers across the world only a couple of years earlier. And most recently, in Closing Time, we see that Craig Owens doesn't know what they are either. This is similar to Amy's reaction to the Daleks in Victory of the Daleks, where it was eventually revealed to be due to the Time Cracks erasing things from existence. Now if we assume that the same thing happened with the Cybus army in Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, we're left with some problems. For one, without the Cybusmen, how could the Battle of Canary Wharf have occured, in which Torchwood 1 fell? And how could Ianto Jones' girlfriend Lisa have been Cyberised? Ianto's issues with finding a cure for Lisa hugely affected his interactions with the rest of the Torchwood team, and him losing her when and how he did was part of what lead to his developing relationship with Jack. My point is that without the Cybus army, the past lives of various characters are heavily distorted. I, for one, would like the events of Cyberwoman to still have occured, if only for the characters' lives to make sense and for such past stories to still be a worth a damn. 82.2.136.93 11:11, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

This is one of several issues under discussion having to do with the effects of the cracks and rebooting the Universe in The Big Bang. I suggest you take a look at Howling: If the Doctor Never Existed and see if the answer lies there.Boblipton talk to me 11:51, November 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Damnit, Boblipton, with your conflicting edits... I'm still putting my post though.
 * It was frequently stated in Series 5 that while things were erased from history by the Cracks that the effects of the things they erased still happened. In other words Torchwood 1 still fell even though there was never any Cybermen or Daleks, Amy still existed even though she never had any parents, the Byzantium still crashed even though there was never any Weeping Angels, and Earth still existed even though stars had never existed. This issue has been discussed Ad nauseum and there is even a current on-going discussion about the issue. The Light6 talk to me 11:58, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

It's also possible that she either managed to miss the Cyber-invasion like Donna did, or she just didn't recognize a disembodied Cyberarm. If any Cybermen she encountered only referred to themselves as human 2.0, then she wouldn't recognize the name Cyberman either, and when she saw a cyberhead or a giant one armed headless cyberman coming to attack her, she was hardly going to say "oh so that's a cyberman. Yeah, I've seen those before."Icecreamdif talk to me 19:11, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

uh...Amy lives in a remote village with no airport...do we even need an explanation for her to not know about the Cybermen?
 * Yes because the Cybermen were all over the world. The Light6 talk to me 01:40, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Were they all over the world? I don't think we actually saw them anywhere but major cities, although we didn't see anything but London except on the News. Still, it's very plausible that a small town like Leadworth only had one or two "ghosts," and Amy could have easily missed them turning into Cybermen.Icecreamdif talk to me 02:56, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it would be safe to say that the reason they only showed them in major cities is because it was to show that they were all over the world, I mean they could've showed a random little town but that could be anywhere, but by showing major iconic cities showed the global nature of the "ghosts", in other words: it was probably a production choice. The Light6 talk to me 10:41, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

But if there were that many ghosts in a small town like Leadworth, there would be more "ghosts" than humans. Since the "ghosts" were actually an invasion force, most of their forces were probably in the big cities, with much smaller numbers centered in small towns like Leadworth. Amy probably would have been aware of the "ghost," but she could have easily missed the part where they all turned into Cybermen. Icecreamdif talk to me 18:23, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Would've been much cheaper to have them invade small towns. You shoot and show the print and the cbermen are invading Leadworth. You flop the print and it's Ahstabula. In any case, I expect the Cyberneb did not invad. Torchwood One was shut down in any economy move. Boblipton talk to me 18:56, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, Cybermen in Leadworth? It does seem like an unlikely scenario. If the Cybermen were transporting through some sort of station, is it practical to install stations in every town, city, village even small town like Leadworth? If the Cybermen were just transported from whatever corresponding location they were in, is it likely that they would invade Leadworth or have any sort of facility near there? Let's not forget that the Cybus Cybermen were never shown to have ruled/conquered the entire Pete's world. Crack or no crack influence, I would readily accept the idea that Amy didn't learn of the Cybus Cybermen. As for the "ghosts all over the world" thing, I think you took it a bit too literally. At the beginning of this year, mass collective deaths of animals "all over the world" were reported, but certainly not in my city and I don't think my city is drifting in space. Fans from "all over the world" goes to a Lady Gaga's concert, but I doubt that includes a secluded Amazon tribe. Considering that Cybus Cybermen at that point were not shown to be space-faring yet and there were finite number of people on Pete's World and a certain numbers would be killed before they had a chance to be converted and a portion (likely large) unconverted, I don't think they would even have the resource to do that. The Cybermen also specifically mentioned that 5 million of them cross over, that's relatively small compared to the population of earth and with the significant numbers shown/implied to be in London, and presumably other capital/major cities, it is unlikely to be enough to be distributed to small towns.

--222.166.181.13 20:59, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Amy I don't think ever explicitly stated she had never seen a Cyberman, and the Doctor never queried her on it. To be honest I think in TPO she was more concentrating on getting away from the Cyberman than wondering if she'd seen one before. 94.72.209.160talk to me 18:33, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who'd seen one before (except, maybe, briefly and at a distance) wouldn't need to "wonder if she'd seen one before"! However, in The Pandorica Opens, Amy doesn't initially see a Cyberman, she sees detached bits of one and is told by the Doctor that the arm firing at them is from a Cyberman. Even someone who'd had a good look at the things, might not immediately recognise the bits. She also wouldn't recognise the name if she'd never heard it before. By the time she got a look at a reasonably complete specimen in that episode, she'd already had the Doctor's explanation and was busy fending off an attack, whilst woozy from being drugged and worried because the Doctor wasn't saying anything (he was unconscious). In the circumstances, she'd not be very likely to say, "Ah, yes, I remember these things but I didn't know they were called Cybermen." Immediately afterwards, she encountered Auton Rory and passed out from the drug. --89.242.75.91talk to me 23:27, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Going back to the crack theory, are we safe to assume that regular present day Earth civilians since Series 5 have no knowledge of aliens? This seem to be the case sometimes, but at other times, this seem to not be the case. Well, but even if the cracks erased big aliens invasions that were public knowledge, wouldn't prisoner zero, the very first story in Series 5 already expose aliens again? --222.166.181.252talk to me 03:10, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

prisoner zero wouldn't, but the atraxi probably would. chances are, mr smith put out a news story about the wirelesses going mad again to explain why there is a giant snowflake with an eye in it scaning the ground from the air. or was it drugs in the water supply? ah humans, always wanting to believe everything exept what's staring them in the face. Imamadmad talk to me 03:44, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Torchwood sure is good at explaining Doctor Who continuity to us. In Everything Changes we get told that everyone thinks terrorists are infecting everyone with hallucinogenic drugs. To be honest, if steel robots invaded the world, I'd sooner believe the latter. Anyway chances are the Atraxi invasion was erased shortly after the Doctor left. 94.72.209.160talk to me 12:13, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

which would make no sense as the Doctor came for Amy after the invasion and Rory even later than that. --222.166.181.207talk to me 18:56, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Just because the invasion was erased doesn't mean anything else was. Nobody remembered the 2009 Dalek invasion but there were still people around to forget it. We know that the cracks were erasing stuff at a very fast pace, so in effect by the end of the series the Atraxi would possibly have been absorbed by a crack and everyone would forget that a giant flying one eyed snow flake was spotted in Leadworth. 94.72.209.160talk to me 21:21, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Or, maybe people do remember it. I don't think any episode even came close to suggesting that The Eleventh Hour was erased. I don't think any episode came close to suggesting that anything other than The Stolen Earth/Journey's End and The Next Doctor were erased. Unless something was actually stated to be erased, we shouldn't assume that it was.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:17, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that one of the reasons people (especially people who contribute to this site) are so uncomfortable with the cracks, etc. is that we don't really know what was and what was not erased. If the show had given us a definitive list, there'd probably be much less grumbling about how the cracks, etc. work and whether they were a good idea. We don't have such a list and it's probably going to take time before we can work out from future stories which events were erased. We shouldn't assume things were, as Icecreamdif says. Conversely, we can't (without evidence) assume they were not. Since the point of the "reboot" was to get the universe back as nearly as possible to the way it would have been if the TARDIS hadn't blown up, it's highly likely very little was actually erased. But we are stuck with not being entirely sure what was -- and we've got to live with that. --78.146.177.197talk to me 00:31, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

The universe is very large, and has existed for a very long time. The Earth invasions make up a ridiculously small portion of the history of the universe. The cracks existed at random points in space and time, so it is unlikely that too many of the Earth invasions were actually hit. Unless we are actually told that something was erased, we should assume that it wasn't. Otherwise, we have to doubt literally everything that happenned in the series before season 5.Icecreamdif talk to me 00:45, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Certainly, nothing that failed to have a public impact on Earth is at all likely to have been erased. It was made clear in the show that nothing prior to Aliens of London/World War Three had had such an impact and that incident itself was shown to have been "explained away". That really only leaves us with The Christmas Invasion onwards being affected, and only the very public, more-or-less contemporary incidents, even then. We can't be sure what happened to them but that doesn't leave us to "doubt literally everything that happenned in the series before season 5", which is OTT hyperbole. --2.96.23.109talk to me 10:51, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Do we even know for absolute definite that the cracks DID erase the invasions? It could have been anyone. Torchwood could have retconned everyone. UNIT could have used alien tech to make everyone forget. The Trickster could have thwarted them as part of a bigger plan. Aliens could have made everyone forget so they had no experience for future invasions. The Silence could have hypnotised people to forget them. The Alliance of Shades could have done their memory wiping thing on a global scale. The possibilities are endless. Just because the invasions being wiped happened in the same series as the time cracks did doesn't necessarily mean there is any connection between the two. 178.78.81.210talk to me 11:33, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the Alliance of Shades has been defunct since 1972, so it's not going to have been them. --2.96.23.109talk to me 12:01, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Your knowledge seems outdated 2.96, I reccomend you watch the sarah jane adventures The Vault of Secrets to show yourself that they were still very much functioning during doctor who series 5... Try Dailymotion. I know it's on there because I've just checked. 178.78.81.210talk to me 13:56, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

It was SJA The Vault of Secrets that I was referring to. It said that the Alliance of Shades was disbanded in 1972. It also showed 3 MIB (androids) who'd been dormant between then and the events of that story. Even their car dated from then. The 3 MIB were in existence during DW Series 5 -- but not actively functioning in covering things up, etc. All they were still doing was reacting to intrusions near the entrance to the vault. Perhaps you should watch The Vault of Secrets again. --2.96.23.109talk to me 14:11, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Haha fair point okay perhaps I should but I was only saying it in passing. To sum up my comment before though, we don't know for absolute definite certain it was the cracks that wiped the invasions, and five possibilities still stand, despite me being wrong about the Alliance of Shades. But was I entirely wrong? There could be similar people on Earth covering up the gaping tracks left behind by noisy aliens. 178.78.81.210talk to me 14:28, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

There could be all kinds of things. Do we have any reason to think it was anything other than the cracks? A reason apart from making things more complicated, that is. "Entities are not to be multiplied without necessity." (William of Occam) --2.96.23.109talk to me 14:55, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

The reason I think it's not the cracks is exactly what we've been discussing on this forum for the past few months. Why when the reboot occured were the invasions still forgotten? Potentially, and extremely likely, the invasions were erased, yes, but the actual thing we're discussingnis WHY they were still not remembered. So you're 100% spot on, the cracks did erase the invasions, but at the same time the memory of them could already have been erased for whatever reason, and the cracks made no difference. 178.78.81.210talk to me 15:27, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

That's still (most definitely) multiplying entities without necessity. To put it a more modern way, K.I.S.S. --89.242.79.21talk to me 18:04, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

It probably was the cracks, though if you watch Doctor Who you should know that they never keep anything simple these days. Still, from a real world perspective, the mention of Amy forgetting the Daleks was very clearly connected to the cracks, and it was obviously Moffat's intention that the cracks be responsible for it. Anyway, I don't think that I was using particularly over the top hyperbole earlier. Why should we assume that major alien invasions were erased and nothing else? The cracks were caused by an exploding TARDIS and appeared randomly throughout the universe. They weren't magically attracted to incidents that allowed all of humanity to know about aliens. They may have hit The Stolen Earth, but it is unlikely that they managed to hit any other invasions. Look at the other things the cracks erased: Amy's parents, Rory, and a group of angels on Alfava Metraxis. The cracks clearly erase things at random. Therefore, it is technically possible that anything has been erased. However, since it would obviously be ridiculous to doubt any event that has ever occured in any episode of the show before season 5, we should assume that any given event wasn't erased unless proven otherwise.Icecreamdif talk to me 20:41, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

In that case does anyone have a better theory than mine on why Craig didn't know about the cybermen despite them bursting on to our planet all guns blazing? Because so far as the show has told us, that invasion should have been restored. 178.78.81.210talk to me 20:59, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

So far as the show has told us, the Cyberinvasion was never erased. Maybe Craig was just sitting on his couch for the entirety of the invasion, happenned to be watching something other than the news at the time, and by the time he heard about it the story was just "Terrorists release drugs into the water supply."Icecreamdif talk to me 21:05, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't the Cybermen send a television broadcast in the series 2 finale? Craid would probably have seen that. 178.78.81.210talk to me 22:24, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

"Students hijacking the signal, that sort of thing." (as in The Christmas Invasion) --89.241.74.47talk to me 01:32, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that that was on every chaannel, anyway. If I recall, the Cybermen just walked into the studio of a news program, killed or apprehended the reporters, and then started saying their own thing. I could be wrong though, a I haven't seen that episode in a while. Anyway, Craig could have been watching a different channel, or watching a DVD or something.Icecreamdif talk to me 09:07, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Or he was watching a popular british sci-fi series. 178.78.81.210talk to me 10:58, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Haha, 89s comment about students hacking the signal reminds me of this hilarious incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWdgAMYjYSs

RTD claimed that the cracks closed the time rift, so potentially the cracks could have effected all sorts of wibbly wobbly timey things such as the void ship that brought the Cybermen. 77.86.108.251talk to me 15:21, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

I've just watched the "hilarious incident": Sorry, Cybermen are funnier than those twits. --89.240.248.204talk to me 15:40, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that must have seemed...weird to somebody trying to watch Doctor Who at the time. I don't really see how the cracks could have closed the time rift, unless they managed to erase it from existance. It is probably better to just assume that Torchwood just didn't bother to deal with the rift after they were disbanded, and the people of Cardiff were lucky that nothing came through. Maybe Craig was watching the same show that Ace was watching in Rememberance of the Daleks. Icecreamdif talk to me 22:53, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that programme, Doc- (skip to next scene) 77.86.108.251talk to me 22:59, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

It would need to be an implausibly long-running show. I mean, Ace was in 1963 when she didn't quite watch it and the Cybermen were in 2007 -- what "new science-fiction adventure" is going to last that long? (I hope nobody's leg has come off.) --89.241.67.245talk to me 01:05, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Good point. No science fiction show from the 1960s could possibly last until the 21st century. That would be absurd.Icecreamdif talk to me 03:51, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Not unless it was really awesome. Anyway since when did the Doctor fight aliens in Max Headroom masks who like groaning, throwing stuff at cameras, humming old TV show themes, and asking people to hit them on the backside with a fly swatter? 77.86.108.251talk to me 17:18, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Well, he's fought stranger.Icecreamdif talk to me 03:37, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Stranger, certainly -- but sillier? --89.240.240.37talk to me 04:14, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't get much sillier than Kalid.Icecreamdif talk to me 04:57, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the Max Headroom guy was a shape - shifting Rutan who fell through a portal into our world and created the broadcast interference to hypnotise everyone to stop watching Doctor Who, enabling the Rutan invasion to succeed? Or maybe just an imbecile with a mask who clearly has some kind of problem. 87.102.117.106talk to me 16:54, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we can blame the Rutans for this one. --78.146.183.1talk to me 21:38, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Actually this guy claims to know who was behind the intrusion. http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/eeb6e/i_believe_i_know_who_was_behind_the_max_headroom/ It might be a load of rubbish but it's still quite interesting. 87.102.117.106talk to me 22:29, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, in http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Howling:Questions_from_Season_Five&t=20120108052659 we seem to have come to the conclusion that the Cracks somehow affected the Void Ship. 87.102.117.106talk to me 11:11, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

not really a conclusion, just a bunch of people to lazy to check the facts. (not an insult! the people were actually saying they were too lazy to watch the episode again!) Imamadmad talk to me 11:20, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

"a bunch of people to lazy to check the facts..." and one who (eventually) did check but found the facts didn't really support one side of the argument discussion or t'other. --89.242.74.218talk to me 14:20, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

"a bunch of people too lazy to check the facts" came up with the illogical conclusion that something specifically said to be removed from time and space in the episode was affected by changes in time and space. --222.166.181.162talk to me 21:35, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't the void ship we thought might have been affected, it was the breach. That was affected by all sorts of things, including the antics of Torchwood One. And it was the breach the Cybus Cybermen used. --89.241.77.143talk to me 02:26, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, has that discussion moved to this page now? Anyway, wasn't the breach closed at the end of the episode anyway?Icecreamdif talk to me 03:56, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

It hasn't moved. It was being referred to -- but 222 was criticising something he/she should have known hadn't been said. --89.241.77.143talk to me 05:30, January 9, 2012 (UTC)