Howling:5 Things to look for in Series 5

Over the course of the Series (5), Matt Smith and Steven Moffat have repeatedly said to look out for 5 things. I think I may have 3, The 3 I have is:

1) An Eye Ball - An Eye Ball that has stood out has been seen in the Eleventh Hour:


 * Amy and The Doctor's close up of their eyes when they look around in the corner of their eye.


 * The Atraxi's obvious Eye Ball.

- Victory of the Daleks:


 * The New Daleks Eye Stalk has a more realistic eye ball in its socket.

2) Red Telephone - A Red Telephone that has stood out has been seen in the Eleventh Hour:


 * A Red Telephone box located on the green of Leadworth

- The Beast Below:


 * A Red Telephone box seen in the back ground of the london market in Starship UK

- Victory of the Daleks:


 * There are many Telephones in the cabinet room and the one in the middle that stands out is the only red one which repeatedly rings thoughout the whole episode.

3) The Cracks - A Crack has been seen in all 3 episodes.

So could these be 3 of the 5 and if so what are the others?? Anyone else seen any other clues related to this topic only??? -- Michael Downey 20:54, April 17, 2010 (UTC).

Any Ideas?? -- Michael Downey 09:08, April 18, 2010 (UTC).

Here are some things people have posted in other threads (progressively less visual and more abstract):


 * The number "0" is of course all over The Eleventh Hour, and it also features prominently in The Beast Below (floor 0, etc.). I haven't watched Victory of the Daleks too carefully yet (having too much fun just watching the story, the first time through), but I didn't see any 0s--in fact, they avoided using a 0 for their big dramatic bomb-explosion countdown by using the color wheel.


 * The idea of a countdown--11s all over Eleventh Hour, Liz 10 in Beast Below. Again, I may have missed it, but I didn't see any prominent 9s in VotD.


 * "Silence" was pretty obvious in Eleventh Hour, and was mentioned in Beast Below, but again, I didn't notice it in VotD.


 * Time/history is somehow messed up. Rory's badge in Eleventh Hour, Amy's age being 2 years off visually vs. auditorily in the voting booth in Beast Below, and the blatant callout at the end of VotD all tie into this.

As for the phone--a red phone is not the same thing as a red phonebox. Especially in a show that's all about a phonebox. So, I don't know if that really counts. --99.37.227.199 09:19, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Watching it again: No notable 0s. There is a countdown besides the color wheel thing, but it's from 30 rels, and we never hear 9. No silence. And the red phone is not the only one that rings; three phones ring, two are answered, and the only one that's used in the foreground, where we can hear what they're saying, is the green one. Having a red phone as the second most visible of 5 phones is not the same thing as prominently showing identical red phoneboxes in back-to-back episodes.

As for the eye--they do definitely zoom in on a closeup of the new-paradigm Dalek's eyestalk on first reveal, and they keep showing it. Not to mention that there are a lot more Dalek's-eye-view scenes than in most stories. So, you could be onto something there.

Two more things:


 * Packing suitcases. I'll have to rewatch Beast Below, but Amelia in the first episode and Bracewell in the third both pack a suitcase as soon as the Doctor disappears from view.


 * "There's something I've/we've forgotten"--that identical line appears in every episode. And it's called out pretty explicitly in the end of this one, and tied into the overarching story arc. Amy wants to know why he's worried, when it'll take the Daleks some time to rebuild their numbers, and he answers, "It's not that, there's something else. There's something we've forgotten. Or, rather, you have. You didn't know them, Amy. You'd never seen them before, and you should have done. You should." And then the TARDIS disappears, and the crack appears behind it. Can't get more blatant than that. --99.37.227.199 01:50, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

And one more: The Doctor is always late. He's making excuses for the TARDIS ("Type 40 TARDIS, still running her in"), and in the past he's often failed to be the most precise of temporal navigators, but it's strange that he's always late--never early, or in the wrong page--and that everyone calls him on it. --99.37.227.199 01:59, April 19,

2010 (UTC)


 * In response to above, well spotted with the packing suitcases, I spotted that too but nothing similar in TBB and I can't think of any meaning behind it other than simply taking stuff with you when you go somewhere else.


 * Also, if the Doctor was a month late in response to Churchill's phone call, why didn't Churchill ring again in the meantime ?


 * I've suggested elsewhere maybe the memory wipe in the voting booth accounts for Amy not remembering the Daleks.


 * Finally in response, admitedly not a blatant use of 9, but there were 9 Daleks in the episode, 6 new and 3 obliterated. Don't know if it ties in, but Amy's dream episode is 5 years later, and the Doctor is stranded for 4 days in the supposed Lodger episode.


 * And a new suggestion, towards the episodes ends the Doctor reappears from elsewhere to where Amy and others are having "tied up loose ends" but these are not specified. Any thoughts ? 86.26.137.154 04:37, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

There are only 5 new Daleks, but if you count Bracewell... you look desperate :P Cannon881 07:40, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

(No I was just tired and miscounted 1 of the oldies at 1 side on 1 of the stills, many thanks for putting me straight 86.26.137.154 09:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC))

There is the 20 minutes thing has been mentioned in all 3 episodes.

1. TEH: Easy to spot, 20 minutes to the end of the world.

2. TBB: Doctor says that amy's memory has been erased by roughly 20 minutes. Just after he enters the voting room and uses his screwdriver to examine the memory modification device ( looks like a light bulb)

3. VOTD: In the scene when doctor and amy talk to bracewell for the last time telling him they are just gonna pop into the tardis for this urgent thing and be right back. He says it might talk them, 10 minutes, then 15, then 20 and then half an hour.

Also 20 minutes is said by the doctor in all 3 episodes. Udbhav3000 12:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Update: 20 minutes is also mentioned in Planet of the Dead, The doctor says that it will take 20 minutes for the swarm to reach the bus. (after the probe is eaten). Might be just a coincidence, but I am gonna look for it in the water of mars and end of time. as well. Udbhav3000 19:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * TPO: stonehenge transmitting for 20 minutes ? 187.113.112.216 05:37, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Another thing: Star Wars references--from the "Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope"-ish line to the scene in front of the giant space window right out of ESB to the Spitfires attacking the new and improved Death Star^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HDalek Saucer after the Doctor (without even any Ewok help) takes down the shielding, each episode so far evokes the next Star Wars movie. (Which means, of course, that Jar-Jar will be with the Weeping Angels, right?) Anyway, I don't know if this is at all significant, or just a stylistic choice by Moffat and his directors, but it's hard to miss. --99.50.120.236 08:07, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Concerning the countdown theory.

-11 is mentioned a lot of times in the Eleventh Hour

-10, a character in Beast Below is called Liz Ten

-9 When the soldier is surveying the rooftops during the evening in Victory of The Daleks, there are nine blimps in the sky, though this number decreases as the episode progresses.

Good catch, anonymous user (you should sign your posts with the 4 tildes or by clicking the Signature button in the edit bar thingy). Now I have to watch it again. After I watch the 4th episode again to look for 8s.... --99.50.120.236 05:36, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

OK, after rewatching episode 4:


 * No crack (except in the scenes from next time). Presumably this means that each of the 5 things only have to appear once in each story, not once in each individual episode, because this obviously has to be one of the 5. Which means that the failure of anything else to appear doesn't prove anything.


 * That also means that the countdown wouldn't run out in time for the finale: 11 in #1, 10 in #2, 9 in #3, 8 in #4/#5, 7 in #6, 6 in #7, 5 in #8/#9, 4 in #10, 3 in #11, 2 in #12/#13. Does that mean the countdown leads to the Christmas special? Or the adventure games (which we've been told count as #14-#17 in the series)?


 * One sort of "countdown" is the "10 little Indians" ways the clerics are picked off one by one. And there's no 8 involved. At the end, the clerics are "down to 4 men", and the wide shots clearly establish 7 people (the 4 clerics, including the Bishop, plus the Doctor, Amy, and River). Since 3 have died, this means we started with 7 clerics, and 10 total people. (Interestingly, you never see more than 5 clerics in any shot, and only 5 of them are named on screen--which would mean 8 total people if it were significant, but it can't be, because there are clearly 2 other clerics who just never get named but are still alive at the end. I'm guessing they're the "Pedro" and "Philip" that someone added to the cast list.)


 * The 4-second loop is also a sort of countdown, but it even more obviously fails to include an 8. (There's not even an "8" digit anywhere in the time shown in the corner.)


 * Eyes, definitely--the eyes are not the windows of the soul they are the doors, Amy's eyes, etc.


 * The closest thing to "There's something I've/we've forgotten" is "There's something wrong, I don't know what it is"/"Yeah, there's something wrong, don't know what it is yet either, working on it." Is that close enough?


 * There are all kinds of references to history being wrong--the museum is wrong about a bunch of things, there's something wrong with the book about the Angels, and of couse the River Song spoilers thing--but, unlike the first three episodes, this is all expected stuff, people being wrong about history, not something more meaningful.


 * No telephone box or telephone, red or otherwise.


 * No silence. (People being told to shut up is about as close as it gets.)


 * No 20 minutes. (I think "2 minutes" is mentioned at least twice, and so is "5 minutes" but neither is the same thing.)


 * No Star Wars.


 * No 0s.


 * No being late. --99.50.120.236 07:53, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good work!


 * The crack is OK, as in previous series the arc references were only ever mentioned in either part 1 OR part 2 of the 2 part stories not in both. So, we'll just have to see what else crops up next week.


 * There was a mention of '20', the Bishop states he has 20 clerics under his command, but so what?


 * What about missing the statues not having 2 heads, although not dialogued as such it is still an example of something being missed or ignored or overlooked initially.


 * 86.26.137.154 09:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Found an 8 in The Time of Angels: Father Octavian (oct as in octopus, meaning 8) -- Dragonfree  09:43, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well done, you just beat me to it, just realised same thing while typing another post 86.26.137.154


 * There is a crack on the TV with the recording of the angel which only started to appear when the angel starts moving: http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2195/screencrack.jpg


 * it can be seen on most close-ups of the screen; it's clearer on the right hand side of the screen. However on this screen cap on the left hand side the crack is barely visable but it's there if you watch the scene through again. 195.93.21.7 10:09, April 25, 2010 (UTC) Andrewken


 * It isn't in the pattern of the cracks, though... -- Dragonfree  10:19, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * For "the crack is OK", as I said, the fact that it wasn't present this week but is in scenes from next week is fine, but that also implies that the absence of any other story-arc-thingy this week doesn't mean anything.


 * The "20" thing was supposed to be about having 20 minutes to do something in each episode, so, yeah, 20 Clerics doesn't seem to mean anything.


 * Missing the two heads is exactly what the "There's something wrong, I don't know what it is" that I mentioned. There's also the somewhat similar line "What's wrong with this book?" (or something like that--I didn't write that one down). But the previous episodes had identical wording (except for the substitution of "we" for "I"), and this one doesn't.


 * The "Octavian" is a great catch. No idea how I missed that--I was so busy trying to think of how it could possibly be a sacred name for a Christian group that I didn't even think of the meaning.... --Falcotron 10:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Okay the crack is definately one i'm sure of that. (ive read somewhere that the moffster said that the crack is definatly one of the 5 things and we'd have to figure out the rest.

The second i believe is something to do with 0 (i've only seen the first 2 episodes being in Australia) but prisoner 0 in the first episode and floor zero/ the boy getting a zero in TBB.

Now im not sure if this is right or even close but there have been rumours of possibly the Rani returning and on the starship UK, i'm not sure if anyone else noticed this but one of the letters that was flickering( and quite closely zoomed in on) was a capital R and possibly we might be given the a, n and i throughout the series.

'''In reference to your "R" theory there is a VERY obvious capital R on the helmet of the lookout in VotD. So maybe "R" could be a theme.kristadupuy 21:59, April 27, 2010 (UTC)'''

I think the fourth might be a distruption in time. The doctor was 12 years late than 2 in TEH than in the 3rd episode i know the doctor arrives a month late however he is quite often last for when hes planning but not usually when hes going to see someone on personal invitation.

Have no idea about the other one unfortunately. But i looked at the picture above and great work noticing the crack however i doubt it is one of the ones we are supposed to be looking for if u search the wiki for either the crack or the cracks u will see that every single crack is exactly the same shape and this ones totally different.

Also i believe that the doctor saying hes forgotten something is more of a hint for us to look not one of the 5 we need to look for or possibly something to do with the doctors memory. In TEH he forgot to give the man his phone back or thank him or anything and in TBB he forgot to say goodbye and stuff but i think he did expalin that.

Any opinions


 * A lot of this stuff is covered above. I know this is a long thread, but it's worth reading what others have found and/or suggested. For one thing, it'll give you ideas of what to watch out for when you watch Victory of the Daleks whenever it reaches Oz, and having more eyes searching for 0s, etc. can't hurt.


 * Also, you should sign your forum posts with four tildes (or just click the Signature button, which does the same thing).


 * Anyway, as for your ideas:


 * Cracks: everyone agrees here.


 * Rani: There are always rumors of the Rani returning, and I don't think they're any more likely this season than in the past. But you could be on to something with the spelling thing. Now I have to go back and watch all 4 episodes again. (Darn! :))


 * 0: Dealt with above. Nobody's (yet) found any significant 0s in Victory of the Daleks or Time of the Angels.


 * Disruption in time/being late: These have been raised as separate issues, rather than the same, and found in all of the first three episodes. Nobody's (yet) found anything relevant in Angels, but that's OK, because it's the first of a two-parter (at least RTD's arc hints came once per story, not once per episode).


 * Forgetting: I think in TBB (yeah, have to watch it again...) he didn't forget to say goodbye, he explicitly chose not to say goodbye. But "There's something I've forgotten", "There's something I've forgotten", "There's something we've forgotten" in the first 3 episodes seems pretty significant. (I don't think "There's something wrong, I don't know what it is" is close enough, but again, two-parter.) --Falcotron 11:55, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think your with him choosing not to say goodbye something about gives a better story. Its now obvious that forgetting something is either one of the five or has something to do with the arc i'm just trying to think what it is. I might have to watch the end of time again i think it might have something to do with that otherwise it originates from TEH cuz thats when he first started mentioning it and because he says we aswell as I.

Just thought of something. A silent menace will follow the doctor and amy through their travels right and he has forgotten something. Possibly has something to do with Rory's phone he transmitted the 0 virus for the atraxi to find but never gave rory his phone back as he rushed straight of to the TARDIS and hasnt seen Rory since maybe a silent menace could be tracing the phone. BTW thaks for the tip on signing.Doctor Sivart 13:17, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the hint about the "silent menace" is what's got everyone looking for references to silence. But I couldn't find anything relevant in the 3rd and 4th episodes that fits. (I did just realize that TotA has a character from Silence in the Library--but that's way too meta....)

Your idea that the silent menace is tracking the Doctor and Amy through Rory's phone is interesting. In the RTD era, cellphones became more and more central as part of the solution to universe-threatening problems; in the Moff era, maybe he's turned that on its head....

Also, the forgetting line--it's actually more complicated than I thought, but I still think it's significant.


 * TEH: "There's something I'm missing... in the corner of my eye." And the episode has multiple other references to people not being able to notice things they've seen (the bit where Amy doesn't notice the 6th door, the bit here the Doctor "saw it, and I missed it" about Rory, etc.) but exactly one time phrased this way.


 * TBB: "There's something I'm forgetting." I still have to watch this one again, so I'm not sure about the line, or the pattern.


 * VotD: "There's something we've forgotten. Or, rather, you have. You didn't know them, Amy." And the episode has multiple other references to people not remembering things they should remember (the first bit about Amy not knowing the Daleks earlier on, and of course the central plot point about the Daleks pretending not to remember the Doctor, not to mention Bracewell remember things that actually didn't happen to him).


 * TotA: "There's something wrong, but I don't know what it is." And, once again, the episode is full of things being wrong (with the museum, it's expected that a lot of things would be wrong--but with the book, there's one thing wrong, and it's important).

So, in each episode, there's a similar but slightly different line, always starting with "There's something," always pointing out a failure in a similar but slightly different faculty, and that failure is always important in multiple cases in the episode but only called out this way exactly once.

Am I stretching here? --Falcotron 14:18, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think the silent menace is the crack because the crack is, like was said with the silent meance, following the Doctor and Amy everywhere they go. I think what was said means the crack is the silent menace, it is follows them everywhere they go, and it's silent. They never notice it. Or similararly, the silent menace could be causing the cracks when following them. I still remain true to my suspcious of the red phone box that appeared in The Eleventh Hour, and then an completely idential one appeared in The Beast Below. Delton Menace 15:34, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Right so far i've noticed 4 recurring themes

1)Eyes

The Eleventh Hour


 * The prison guards main feature was their eye


 * Two refrences to the corner of their eyes,

The Beast Below


 * children crying is an important theme in this episode(i know that this one isn't a very strong piece of evidence)

Victory of the Daleks


 * New Daleks have a new eye stalk

The Time of Angels


 * Amy is told not to look into the Weeping Angles eyes

2) Perception filter

The Eleventh Hour


 * Prison zero has put a Perception filter around one of the rooms in Amys house

The Time of Angels


 * The dieing angles have a Perception filter around them (this is one of the doctors theories)

3)Cracks

The Eleventh Hour


 * In Amys bedroom

The Beast Below


 * On the side of the ship

Victory of the Daleks

As the Tardis sets off

The Time of Angels


 * In the spoiler at the end

4)The doctor forgetting

The Eleventh Hour: "There's something I'm missing... in the corner of my eye."

The Beast Below: Amy chose to "Forget" maybe?kristadupuy 13:50, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Victory of the Daleks: "There's something we've forgotten. Or, rather, you have. You didn't know them, Amy."

The Time of Angels: "There's something wrong, but I don't know what it is."

I cant find one for The beast below, so if anyone else does please put it in and if any one else think of a 5th one please put itAlex1442 00:03, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I think i've found a late one in The Time Of Angels..... The Doctor mentions that himself and River Song keep meeting in the wrong order......that kinda works out late/early...but just a theory.. :D Muhammed2007 00:14, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that seems to fit even better with the "history/timelines/memories out of whack" thing than the "always late" thing. But it definitely fits (and the fact that it's carried over from the RTD era isn't a problem, is it?) --Falcotron 00:52, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

[Digital Spy's teasers for Flesh and Stone] include Amy saying "7" as the start of a countdown. So, it does seem like every episode has a countdown that starts 1 number lower. And it's 1/episode, not 1/story, because it's 7 rather than 8. Which means the countdown ends in episode 12, not in the middle of the Adventure Games.

So, Father Octavian is 8, but he's not a countdown. Maybe I miscounted the number of people they start off with going into the Maze, and it's 8 rather than 7? Or...?

Meanwhile, if the countdown is 1/episode, does that mean all 5 arc-thingies are in every episode, so we should be able to find them all in ToA?

And speaking of arc-thingies: "The crack. We finally learn what it is and what it wants." Not in the finale, next Saturday, in FaS. Wow. Does that mean it's not one of the 5?

Most of the other stuff in the teasers is useless: "River has done something... naughty"--yeah, she killed the best man she ever knew. "The Byzantium contains a forest"--yeah, we saw that in the series trailers. "What's the opposite of the moral from 'Blink'?"--yeah, we know, Amy has to keep her eyes closed; that was on last week's scenes from next week.. " Eureka Gallileo"--whatever, sounds like a random line of dialog. "Six"--yeah, normally a countdown that starts at 7 doesn't end at 7. "Amy does something to The Doctor that prompts an epiphany. And a collection"--yeah, we know this is the outfit Amy's wearing when she kisses the Doctor, the epiphany that results is obvious, and the collection is going to pick up Rory to take the two of them to Venice for a wedding present.

But there's one more that looks interesting: "There's a very important date you'll want to mark in your diaries/iPhones/Google calendars come the end of this episode." Well, "7 7 2010" is on some pics at the BBC Doctor Who website, so maybe that's the date--but why is it important? --Falcotron 02:56, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I'm actually really surprised everyone missed the glaringly obvious nine in Victory of the Daleks. In fact, every theory I've heard on the nine so far have been incorrect. There were eight Daleks, not nine, there were seven blimps. However, there is definitely a nine. A very, very obvious nine. Because it appears on a clock. And no clock can have both hands pointing at an IX at the same time. AHA! So there is a very obvious countdown through the episodes, but we're yet to see if it occurs every epsiode. If it does, we have the double finale for the zero, if not, double finale for one.

219.90.243.200 14:52, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of clock designs that move the hour hand one hour at a time. This was particularly common in the early electronic (quartz or tuning fork) clocks produced by Bell Labs and Accutron for laboratory, naval, and military use from the late 20s to the mid 60s. The oscillator powers a stepper motor that drives the second hand forward once/second. A very simple gear train (which can be just one gear with 60 teeth and a spoke attached to the 0) attached to the shaft of the second hand steps the minute hand every 60 ticks of the second hand, and another identical system steps the hour hand every 60 ticks of the minute hand. So, at 09:45:45, all three hands point to IX.

Later electronic clocks (I think pioneered by either Bulova/Accutron or Seiko, and I think in the 1960s, but definitely well after 1941) were intentionally designed to move the hands more smoothly, like a traditional clock--not out of any necessity or design simplicity, but because it turned out that people liked it better, and found it easier to read, when the hour hand moved at least once/minute.

The only question is whether the British war room had a quartz clock or a Shortt electromechanical pendulum clock (which moves all hands together with each tick).

But anyway, that could still be a good "countdown", especially if it's prominently displayed or referenced. Do you have either a screen grab or a time in the episode to check it out? --Falcotron 19:58, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

OK, this is now getting way too long and disorganized, so I'm going to create a separate topic for each "thing to look for". I hope no one minds. --Falcotron 01:03, April 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Excellant idea and good work so far, I've added to new countdown thread but now out of time so will add to other new threads tomorrow 86.26.137.154 09:34, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I did the first few, but then the database crashed or something, so I'll try again tomorrow (if anyone thinks it's a good idea). --Falcotron 08:09, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Well, I come off as an ass, don't I? Totally wasn't aware of those types of clocks. But nonetheless, I stand by this IX on the clock: there was some lighting directed at the clock, it seems. The clock draws attention because it's the axis of the shot, and (due to the lighting) one of the brightest points of the shot. Seems pretty deliberate to me, or a glaringly huge red herring. But isn't that what fan sites are for?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/MurasamEdge/vlcsnap-2010-04-28-22h39m46s113.png

Shot occurs right after the raising of the flag (ie, the VICTORY POSE). Top left. More top than left.

114.30.117.50 13:27, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/episodes/b00s8dwd/galleries/design_art

I found this on the Doctor Who page....dunno why that date is so special.... hmmmmm Muhammed2007 15:26, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the crack in Amy's bedroom was an actual plot device. All the other instances of cracks (until FaS) are largely if not completely ignored. I think the cracks that "follow" them actually began in the tardis



Also, when the Doctor turns the affected monitor off there is a flash or an image and that may be causing the "forgetfulness" These are just a couple of thoughts I was havingDoctor Von Wer 14:45, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

The Pandorica was mentioned again by River Song in Flesh and Stone. ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( Talk ) ☆ 18:23, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Again...was on the doctor who page.. but this time on the TARDIS tour and i saw the crack in the tardis monitor....its bigger..unlike the one in the picture above...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/episodes/b00rs6t7/videos/p00765jg pause at 02.15 (mm/ss) Muhammed2007 12:52, May 03, 2010 (UTC)

what about another thing to look out for is the act of observing and waiting.

Eleventh Hour: Alot of waiting for Amy

Prisoner zero seemed to wait in that room till amy went in it and Prisoner Zero had said about watching over Amy as she grew up. the atraxi also 'monitored' the whole planet.

Beast Below: Um I'm not clear in this one but did Liz Ten wait for the Doctor or something, and Liz Ten was also observing for anyone to do the glass of water thing.

Victory of the Daleks: The daleks waited for the Doctor to activate the progenitor. And Amy, Winston and others were watching what was going on in the Dalek Saucer

Time of Angels: The weeping angel in the vault seemed to wait or was 'dormant' and tried to get a look at Amy and others by getting through the screen like the doctor said.

Flesh and Stone: The clerics kinda observed the light the crack was giving off. And also that screen ting that acted strange to River was another one I read somewhere.

And also Weeping Angels; they need to be observed to be ward off and stuff.

so what do you think?

Time of Angels:

I'm pretty certain the countdown is continuing. And I've been working on the idea that it's not simple "THE NUMBER APPEARS" everytime. It may sound stupid, but when Amy first starts counting, she responds to the Doctor's 4. She starts at 10, he starts at 4. The next two numbers we hear are 5 and 9. if we follow this pattern (and it takes only these numbers to start the pattern), the numbers meet at 7. But, since this is fairly ridiculous, seven is said about five or six times during the episode. (Amy's age when this all started, Doctor's age is 907). I was working on the basic mathematical patterns idea with Victory of the Daleks as well, since absolutely every image has things grouped in threes (mise-en-scene, posters, daleks). I thought that was stretching it a bit

I'm beginning to think this idea is turning out to be too crazy.

219.90.234.220 17:26, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

OK, here's all the separate threads. I think it'll be easier to discuss these things if each idea is kept separate:
 * Forum:5 things to look for: 0
 * Forum:5 things to look for: Cracks
 * Forum:5 things to look for: Eyes
 * Forum:5 things to look for: Silence
 * Forum:5 things to look for: The countdown
 * Forum:5 things to look for: "There's something..."
 * Forum:5 things to look for: Time or history is messed up
 * Forum:5 things to look for: Red telephone/red phonebox

If I missed any, someone else can add more threads as easily as I can.

And I created this thread in people want to discuss the overall idea without getting into the specifics: --Falcotron 10:43, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Forum:5 things to look for: Overall

I've beem reading this, wating for the episode. It's not NUMBERS to count down. It's numbers in each CHARACTER! 11th Doctor, Liz 10, Father OCTavian, etc.


 * First, please sign your comments with 4 tildes (~).


 * Meanwhile, that's already been mentioned. Look at the thread on the countdown. But as far as I know, nobody's come up with a 9 name for VotD, or a 7 name for FaS. If you can think of anything, that would be great. --Falcotron 15:41, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Jfraser 25 Therioes

5 things i notice;

CRACKS PANDORICA SILENCE
 * Amy's Bedroom Wall
 * Side of Starship UK
 * In the Weeping Angel's Wall (on the tape)
 * Wall of Spaceship
 * Venice Sky
 * Zero say's 'the Pandorica will open and Silence shall fall'
 * River Song mentiones the Pandorica
 * Zero say's 'the Pandorica will open and Silence shall fall'

TIME I don't know of any others
 * Silence falls after the Doctor leaves Venice
 * The Duck Pond
 * Rory's badge
 * Amy not remembering the Daleks
 * The CyberKing over London
 * What about eye/perception...has anyone noticed how Perception Filter is like the new iPhone of the aliens...even Weeping Angels can cast perception filters....kind of odd...I just didn't see the Angels true form as truckers holding a perception filter machine...Prisoner Zero uses it, Weeping Angels use it, Saturynians (however it's spelt) use it, the time machine in lodger uses it...I was about to think that my telly had a perception filter on it that caused the words "perception filter" to keep showing up...and then you have the invisible monster in Vincent and the Doctor, how everyone on Starship UK chose to see their ship in a different way...how Churchill chose to see the Daleks as their saviours...Dream Lord's all about perception so that's self-explanatory...and all those Atraxi eyeballs....Something about we're not seeing the whole truth maybe....


 * If there really are five things...then I think these five are pretty much it...the other stuffs are absurdly difficult...as tempting as it is to idolize Moffat as a god who have planned every single shot, it's just stupid to make marginally impossible links...the countdown theory is just insane...Does anyone really expect anyone to go back to rewatch each episode 10 times and link people's name's prefix with a 2 second shot of a clock or how many people were in the room...Moreover, the five things may just well be interesting stuff and aren't strongly related to the big bad203.168.176.42 11:21, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone think there might be something to the mentions of fairytales? I'm going on very little here, but when the Doctor meets Amelia in 'The Eleventh Hour', he says her name is like something from a fairytale. Later in the episode, she says this is why she changed from 'Amelia' to 'Amy'. In 'Flesh And Stone', there's that mysterious moment when the Doctor, apparently differently dressed, comes back to her and says she must remember what he said to her when she was seven. Then, at the end of the episode, when River mentions the Pandorica, the Doctor says it's 'just a fairytale', to which River replies 'Aren't we all?', which I thought was a strange thing to say. The cause of the cracks happens on Amy's wedding day, so she, the cracks, and the Pandorica are all linked somehow. I don't know if anyone else has made this link (and then maybe discarded it!), this is my first post. Idle Speculation 19:37, May 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you watch Doctor Who Confidential, read interviews with Moffat, etc., he talks about fairytales constantly. He refers to Amy as a character out of a fairytale (and often, more specfically, as Wendy from Peter Pan), describes the show as being like a fairytale when it's at its best, talks about how he wants more of a fairytale feel on the show, etc. "Fairytales are how we tell our children that there are monsters in the woods."


 * And there have been lots of fairytale references on-screen, from the obvious (like the "Aren't we all?" that you mentioned) to the subtle (like Amy dressed like Red Riding Hood).

Rory's badge
 * The question is whether this is just a sort of general theme--Moffat giving the show a fairytale feel just as he said he wanted to--or whether these are plot hints that form a story arc. For example, there could be a sort of Discworld (the Terry Pratchett series--especially Witches Abroad and Hogfather) thing going on, where belief in fairy tales is important, and the Time Lords no longer being around to believe in their fairy tales has some kind of consequence or something. I don't know. Any good ideas? --Falcotron 05:49, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * or Moffat is just fascinated by fairy tales as he always have been and intergrates it in his writing style...which is already very fairy tale-ish...and the fairy tale thing is just about the style, not an actual tale in the plot...203.168.176.42 11:21, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

As Rory is now The Doctor's companion, he could of got his badge given to him by a later incarnation, or could of dropped it, and TEH Rory picked it up? Kerange 17:09, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

I have some theoris that are probaly right

1. Silence

2. Crack

3. The Pandorica

4. River Song

5. The Doctors name (not sure about this one)Theguy444 21:11, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Another possible thing: species coming to Earth and hiding away. Prisoner Zero, Saturnynians, Ekodines, are all hiding away on Earth to escape. ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( Talk ) ☆ 13:17, May 16, 2010 (UTC) Also, they all masqueraded as humans at some point. ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( Talk ) ☆ 19:10, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Clocks:

I'm wondering if anyone is noticing the clocks. I highly doubt this are production errors because they are given clear screen time which tends to indicate importance.

The Eleventh Hour the clock in the TARDIS at the end goes from 11:59 AM to 12 PM, despite being the middle of the night.

Flesh and Stone the clock in Amy's bedroom goes from 11:59AM 6/25 to 12:00PM 6/26. Admiraljustin 23:47, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why, but when they said '5 things to look for' I naturally assumed they meant objects, like they were going to use the same postbox in each episode or something like that. Then all of a sudden I look, and everyone's going on about all these theories about deception and missing time (which don't get me wrong, I love the idea of) but I never thought it would be anything that complex and deep.

....you can tell I must be new to the world of Doctor Who Theories.87.113.253.65 08:48, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys, sorry if i'm in the wrong thread. I couldn't find one for this, but it's near enough. Anyway, here's my take on the finale involving the cracks we have been looking so closely at. In my opinion River Song finds her way to the Doctor and Amy. In the TARDIS, a crack appears. River explains about the 2 types of crack we heard about in VOV, the Doctor leads the companions through the crack. They wake up in the Pandorica chamber. In the chamber they find a box (Similar to the Home Box in TOA/FAS) which comes with a warning about the cracks. "The Pandorica shall open, when it does it shall bring ultimate power, but beware, silence will fall on the Earth and events shall be wiped from history." Soon the box falls through the ground, the ground rumbles and a crack appears on a cliff face in the chamber. The crack opens and silence falls, the Doctor and River dissolve into the crack. Amy wakes up and sees a vision of the Doctor, dressed in his jacket. Amy travels the Earth to find the cracks and realises that the only way to close them is to let one consume her. The Doctor wakes up in a void, and realises that he has been removed from time and that Amy is stuck, with all of the events that he saved about to unfold, in a similar way to Turn Left (Explains appearances of all the list of monsters returning i.e Weevils, Sontarans etc...). The Doctor travels back in time to FAS, with the whole jacket being different thing then goes to TEH to give Amy a message. (Hence the shadow in the window at the end of TEH and the shadow moving through the house at the beginning, this is not Prisoner 0 as we are lead to believe, the shadow does not fit his shape, and he has not formed any psychic links yet.) I don't know where it leads from here. You can take it from here.
 * Don't neglect the possibility that we may all be looking _way_ too hard. We're kind of working on the assumption that Moffat works on two levels--for the mainstream viewer, each episode works even if you don't watch every week, but for the diehard fans, there are all kinds of subtle references that are cleverer than we can possibly imagine. (Like "but you're probably a vegetarian" in Amy's Choice). Maybe he's not quite as geeky as we are, or maybe he is but Matt Smith (the original source of the "5 things" quote) isn't. So, maybe the second level isn't nearly as deep as we're expecting, and we're not just barking up the wrong tree, but barking up a barely-visible tree in a tiny matte painting of a forest in the background of some scene that the Moff didn't even notice, and we're all going to look like fools when the finale comes. But it's still good fun, even if we're wrong, right? :) --Falcotron 12:24, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

This is my theory, please address any issues, correct me or suggest your theories.. Thanks :)

--Henry319 20:10, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, you can always start a new thread if you can't find the right one. This one's fine, but it may be hard for people to find your theory this far down a long, complicated thread.


 * Anyway, are you talking about this shadow in the window? Because it really looks nothing like the Doctor. As I said in the "finale Doctor" thread, it doesn't even look much like a person, and if it is a person, it looks like a stocky, balding guy with a moustache.


 * Also, I don't think River will be the one who explains about the cracks to the Doctor. Remember, this is earlier in her timeline than FaS, so if she had no idea what the cracks where in FaS, she couldn't have known earlier. Unless you think either (a) she was lying, or (b) her timeline has been changed since FaS. --Falcotron 23:07, May 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't look at the shadow closely. In response to that, what if the thing that Father Octavian says about who or what she is, is not what we think. Most think that this is her being the Doctor's wife/mother etc., but I think that this may still be true, but the Doctor probably knows that, so it's got to be something more than a relationship. Even in Forest of the Dead, the 10th Doctor said there was only one time he could tell her his name, but he seemed genuinely shocked, not just suprised. Almost in a sad way. Maybe River knows more about the cracks than anyone and is, as you suggest, lying. Just a thought ... :) -Henry319 21:09, May 28, 2010 (UTC
 * Just had a thought after reading that... What if Stonehenge is the Pandorica? Has this been mentioned anywhere yet? V00D00M0NKY 23:56, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just had a thought after reading that... What if Stonehenge is the Pandorica? Has this been mentioned anywhere yet? V00D00M0NKY 23:56, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just had a thought after reading that... What if Stonehenge is the Pandorica? Has this been mentioned anywhere yet? V00D00M0NKY 23:56, May 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Pandorica is some sort of TL prison, which is hidden under Stonehenge. When it's opened, it created a teporal disturbance (e.g. the big bang) which echoes throuh the future and past and causes the cracks.Obviusly, the Pandorica was created INSIDE the time war, which would cause the temporal disturbance. It has to be the TW, and I suppose it has to be in a previous universe. The countdown is a bomb and it will go boom when it reaches zero, it being scattered across time in tthe same way as the BAd WOlf meme in the Parting of Ways. This creates an ontological paradox, but let's assume that';s madce possible by our friend Mr. Crackinthe Wall. -- Dragonfree  OVER 3,500 EDITS 19:11, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think the Pandorica was created inside the LGTW. The Doctor doesn't refer to it as a wartime rumor, but as an ancient fairy tale.


 * Honestly, the more spoilers I read, the more the Pandorica sounds like Shada plus some dimensional engineering. But maybe my image is being colored by all the HHGTTG references in the upcoming episodes.


 * And, to all those people who keep wanting the Rani to return--wouldn't Salyavin/Chronotis (maybe still chameleon-arched as Dr. Joyce at UC Berkeley) be a lot more fun? :) --Falcotron 12:03, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * With the finale starting tomorrow, my last chance to ask: what was with all the fish?
 * TEH - Amelia thanking Santa for, among other things, the fish;
 * Fish custard, presumably;
 * TBB - When the Doctor returns the "engine test" glass of water to the couple at the table, he explains his action as a "fish was missing";
 * - space whale/ star whale;
 * VOTD - The most prominent of the COBRA female staff, the one grieving for a lost airman, was named Breen. Breen are a small fish.
 * TTOA / F&S - Probably unrelated, but, well, Angelfish;
 * TVOV - There are A LOT of fish in that one, the Saturnine husbands.
 * - Torchwood Five 87.80.103.44 20:27, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Love as a theme ?
 * What about love as a theme ? There is Chaudry and her guy in Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, Craig and Sylvie in the Lodger (Kiss the girl !), Vincent and Amy (unrequited ?) in Vincent, Amy and Rory through the whole series, River saying "Sorry my love", any more ? 187.59.112.186 06:42, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not too keen on this being a part of the "5 things" puzzle, but I'll pitch in anyway: 11 tells Jeff to 'get a girlfriend' upon grabbing his laptop. He also calls the new Tardis 'you sexy thing.' Amy kisses people for a living. Amy punching the Abdicate button, and the Star Whale's kindness. Bracewell's sweetheart. River's flirting and the question about whether she's 11's wife. A trip to Venice, and all those husbands. Amy's married and pregnant. Three generations of a family in the drilling town, and the two seniors on that project fall in love. Vincent loves Amy. Sophie and Craig you mentioned, Amy and Rory all throughout plus in TPO. Agonaga 03:29, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Love is "zero" in tennis of course, or maybe I'm just being silly now. 187.113.112.216 05:20, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I first started reading that and I was like "oh another person picking at straws", but it actually makes a bit of sense especially when love = zero is added to the theory. Still it's a stretch but it makes more sense than a few of the others I've read on here. V00D00M0NKY 06:36, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * What about love as a theme ? There is Chaudry and her guy in Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, Craig and Sylvie in the Lodger (Kiss the girl !), Vincent and Amy (unrequited ?) in Vincent, Amy and Rory through the whole series, River saying "Sorry my love", any more ? 187.59.112.186 06:42, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not too keen on this being a part of the "5 things" puzzle, but I'll pitch in anyway: 11 tells Jeff to 'get a girlfriend' upon grabbing his laptop. He also calls the new Tardis 'you sexy thing.' Amy kisses people for a living. Amy punching the Abdicate button, and the Star Whale's kindness. Bracewell's sweetheart. River's flirting and the question about whether she's 11's wife. A trip to Venice, and all those husbands. Amy's married and pregnant. Three generations of a family in the drilling town, and the two seniors on that project fall in love. Vincent loves Amy. Sophie and Craig you mentioned, Amy and Rory all throughout plus in TPO. Agonaga 03:29, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Love is "zero" in tennis of course, or maybe I'm just being silly now. 187.113.112.216 05:20, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I first started reading that and I was like "oh another person picking at straws", but it actually makes a bit of sense especially when love = zero is added to the theory. Still it's a stretch but it makes more sense than a few of the others I've read on here. V00D00M0NKY 06:36, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I first started reading that and I was like "oh another person picking at straws", but it actually makes a bit of sense especially when love = zero is added to the theory. Still it's a stretch but it makes more sense than a few of the others I've read on here. V00D00M0NKY 06:36, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

(First time posting so I'm sorry if there are any signing mistakes) Just to build on the other person who mentioned fairytales. It's been quite a big running theme throughout this series.

As mentioned, there's the "Pandora's Box" fairytale reference in the Pandorica, River Song's "aren't we all" conversation with the Doctor at the end of Flesh and Stone, Amy/Amelia Pond, etc.

There's more hints of fairytales in the settings of the stories as well. The sequence where Amy has to keep her eyes closed in Flesh and Stone could have been set anywhere else, but Moffat chose to write it to take place in a forest. A forest in a spaceship is really out of place, even if it was already the norm in those days. The forest itself was really green, and while watching the episode (Amy was in red - like Little Red Riding Hood), felt like Red Riding Hood skipping through the forest to go to her grandmum's house.

Again, Amy's house looks like a cottage. Surrounded by greenery, swings, something reminiscent of cobblestone pathways... It looks just like a house from fairytales!

Fairytales are also regarded as "dreams come true" sometimes, and as with Amy's Choice, she had to choose between staying with the Doctor, or being happily married in Leadworth with Rory. The one she chooses would be her interpretation of her dream come true, a.k.a. her fairytale. Another "fairytale" of hers was meeting Vincent Van Gogh in Vincent and the Doctor. In The Lodger, Craig's dream/fairytale is to be with Sophie, and in the end they do live happily ever after.

So what is it about this whole fairytale business?! Has the entire series 5 just been a fairytale? Like someone was reading a book and it came to life, or some humongous life-form was manipulating the Doctor (and Amy), seeing as the "Atraxi" eyeball in The Eleventh Hour was compared to someone looking into a doll house. Or maybe the word FAIRYTALE hinted at everything will not be as it seems (partially already proven true in The Pandorica Opens where the Roman soldiers turn out to be Autons).

I may be going off on a whim here but I do think the constant references to fairytales do hint at the way we should be looking at the entire story arc. DoctorHer 10:51, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Hi Doc. There's a lot of this arounbd if you look through the wild speculation here. To want extent anything is a fantasy is open to much debate; have a good read through. However, I'm taking the poistion that everything is a fantasy at 'the moment' becasuse there is no reality; you saw it destroyed. What will the final state of reality be? How will it be put back into place? And of course, we are already discussing the 'reality' of a work of fiction. Jack Chilli.

The baddie in Little Red Riding Hood was of course a "Bad Wolf"... 187.113.112.216 13:20, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Further to love = zero in tennis, doesn't duck = zero in cricket? Any more synonyms for zero anywhere?81.141.81.12 01:10, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great spotting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_score#Scoring_a_game and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_%28cricket%29 confirm that. I'm not sports savvy so I would never have caught these. Agonaga 01:35, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

A ring also looks like a zero. In fact the first scene in the TARDIS in TPO has Amelia looking through the ring. 189.115.169.132 15:44, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

This may have been said already, but after all these universe-destroying zeros, the next episode is called The Big Bang which (per the link) is "Event One." Agonaga 16:12, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

my humble thoughts on what they might me

1.Cracks In The Skin Of the universe

even a blind person could notice them, besides they were confirmed as one of the five things

2.The future doctor

F&S of course, he tells her to remember what he said when she was 7 but also, aha, near the end of TEH, it shows the TARDIS returning and young amelia looks up happily. it then cuts to 2010 amelia, and it looks like a dream but what if it was the future doctor travelling back along his own timeline to tell her the thing, mentioned in f&s?

3.The eyes

plenty of stuff on eye theory elsewhere, but i don't know if anyone noticed but when the doctor is first talking to the atraxi (the eye) it shows his reflection, and something, possibly a face, is also reflected... look closely

4.Omega

on the clerics arms in f&S are symbols very simalr to omega,(i'm sure there are others if you look closely) and there are heaps of rumours about his possible return in TBB (his voice in the tardis on 26/6/10)  (burn marks outside house) (bluehinter's spoiler page)

5.Reflections

Amy POND,RIVER song

what do you see in a pond/river? in TEH, i see plenty of mirrors, and the doctors reflection in the atraxi as well. also "reflections" could also be a potent metaphor for the future doctor.

Thouhgts/comments/corrections anyone?

202.150.110.168 08:26, June 25, 2010 (UTC)