Talk:Cleavage

Do we honestly need this page?
I know the idea on the Wiki is that every item is fair to go for a page, but I do genuinely have to question the necessity of this page. Yes, we may run by the idea of explicitly being NSFW but what is the justification for a page dedicated to this point? (I would also be open to arguing the same of a few other pages but one thing at a time...) In what situation would we need to document the outfits of women and whether or not their cleavage is visible? Especially when it seems in large part to merely be editors noting it for reasons I cannot fathom. The only instance on this page that seems to be an explicit point made is the TATM point, because that's River writing in the Melody Malone book; "and I was packing cleavage that could fell an ox at twenty feet." Everything else on this page feels to me like totally unnecessary writing that is neither informational - I'll leave aside my difficulties to think of reasons to need this as is - or actually relevant to the purposes of the Wiki. JDPManjoume ☎  16:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, as you'll have seen by now I have indeed exploited T:NO RW, I think quite cleverly, to cut down the vaguely creepy list of instances of on-screen cleavage, leaving only the one DWU source which explicitly uses the noun. Also, restricted editing of the page to admins, to prevent trolls bringing it all back or otherwise messing with the page.


 * However, we can't really do more than that on a talk pag. The long-awaited deletion of the N-word page has set a precedent that we can come to community decision to delete specific pages that are in especially poor taste — but that would take an actual community decision, not just a request and one admin's ruling. Ideally it'd take a forum thread. If we can get enough momentum on this specific page behind the position that this page is tasteless and offensive in the same way that the N-word page's existence was… then I think I could delete it, even so.


 * But until then, it's simply not in my power as a rank-and-file admin. Sorry… Scrooge MacDuck ☎  16:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, very glad you have done that. Much appreciated - and yes, I understand that unfortunately until we get the forums back or more people note the same position, that it is as much as can be done. JDPManjoume ☎  16:49, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Well to get the ball rolling on the necessary momentum, I support this page’s deletion. In my view, it serves no purpose and just damages the reputation of this wiki. SherlockTheII ☎  16:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * We need to get rid of this page. Plain and simple. The Doctor Who universe does not use the term in a transformative nature, so from my perspective even if it wasn't offensive it doesn't have a need to exist. The one line on here could be on River Song's page if we wanted it to be, but even then I would consider it in poor taste. The only real justification for allowing this page to keep existing is to avoid setting precedent for inclusivity debates --but if that is the only reason to keep a page around, then not only should that page definitively be removed, we should be considering how to change policy because it's ass backwards. The fact that there was a creepy list of character's whose actresses showed what an editor considered to be "ample cleavage" is absolutely insane and offensive. Having this page around (and our general policy revolving around inclusion of real world anatomical pages) invites and encourages these kinds of pages. And from the perspective of women, good god can you not see how this page would upset women? It's perverted. This page needs to get deleted as soon as possible.
 * I understand why the admins are in a particularly precarious position regarding deletion --but the fact that an admin could genuinely get in trouble for deleting a page like this is disgusting and speaks to the culture of this wiki. We have positioned ourselves as the OFFICIAL DOCTOR WHO WIKI. If you type in "doctorwho.fandom.com" it redirects to us. We have to be better than this. NoNotTheMemes ☎  16:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC) 16:52, 25 March 2021 (UTC)