Theory talk:Timeline - Seventh Doctor

Page ignores primary sources
As has been pointed out at Forum:Timeline pages, these timeline pages violate T:SOURCES, are awash with speculation and are, in my opinion, totally worthless. Still, just to put it on the record:

This particular page ignores the primary source of DWMS Winter 1993, which explains the intended timeline of events between the DWM comic stories and the Virgin New Adventures. These deliberately intersected, beginning with TV: Fellow Travellers. This story was intended to follow on directly from the final Timewyrm novel. The two ranges were intertwined thereafter until Uninvited Guest, which preceded PROSE: Theatre of War. Ground Zero was a deliberate break with the Virgin continuity, and then the much later The Last Word was, as the title suggested, both the final DWM Seventh Doctor story, and the final narrative connection between DWM and the NAs.

This article, far from emphasising the producers' intended chronology, obscures and even occasionally contradicts it. Anyone wishing to actually read this era of the Seventh Doctor's timeline in the order intended by its publishers wouldn't be able to use our page to do so.

This is yet another reason why I think these timeline pages should be scrapped. If they can't even show us the chronology intended by the publishers what possible good is it?

For future reference, DWM's chronology goes like this:


 * TV Survival
 * immediately followed by the Timewyrm novels
 * immediately followed by Fellow Travellers
 * COMIC: The Mark of Mandragora (obviously preceded by what we're calling the "separate" stories of the two prequels)
 * COMIC: Under Pressure
 * COMIC: Party Animals
 * COMIC: The Chameleon Factor
 * COMIC: Seaside Rendezvous
 * COMIC: The Good Soldier
 * COMIC: A Glitch in Time
 * COMIC: Evening's Empire
 * COMIC: The Grief
 * ''Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible
 * Cat's Cradle: Warhead (with COMIC: Ravens taking place within Warhead)
 * Cat's Cradle: Witch Mark
 * COMIC: ''Metamorphosis
 * COMIC: Memorial
 * ''Nightshade
 * COMIC: Cat Litter
 * ''Love and War
 * ''Transit
 * COMIC: ''Pureblood
 * COMIC: ''Flashback (comic story)
 * COMIC: ''Emperor of the Daleks!
 * The Highest Science
 * The Pit
 * ''Deceit
 * ''Lucifer Rising
 * COMIC: ''Final Genesis
 * ''White Darkness
 * ''Shadowmind
 * ''Birthright (novel)
 * ''Iceberg (novel)
 * COMIC: Time & Time Again
 * ''Cuckoo (comic story)
 * Blood Heat
 * ''The Dimension Riders
 * ''The Left-Handed Hummingbird
 * ''Conundrum (novel)
 * ''No Future
 * ''Tragedy Day
 * COMIC: ''Uninvited Guest
 * ''Legacy
 * Theatre of War

''The Last Word hadn't been written at the time this list was compiled, since it's from the much later colour era of DWM strips.

But there are a number of interesting things which are pointed out by this list, when comparing it to ours. No doubt the biggest is that we assume — probably because the Doctor Who Reference Guide does — that the Seventh Doctor DWM stories prior to Fellow Travellers happen between Survival and Fellow Travellers.

That is, we've got the whole run between A Cold Day in Hell! and roughly Doctor Conkerer!, including the COMIC stories, happening in publication order. However, DWMS Winter 1993 quite clearly tells us that were wrong. Their non-Ace, non-Benny stories are actually set before the Seventh Doctor's DWM debut in A Cold Day in Hell.

This is a fairly fundamental flaw that makes the current timeline a nonsense, really. This error has an even greater impact, because we've added in various stories that were written after these, meaning that a hell of of this timeline page is completely unreliable.

I'd fix it, but I hate a) timeline pages and b) the Seventh Doctor wayyyyy too much to bother.

20:14: Wed 14 Dec 2011

Placement of Illegal Alien, Matrix and Storm Harvest; 2.2 Updated with new information
I'd like to suggest that the novels "Illegal Alien", "Matrix" and "Storm Harvest" be moved to a place in between "TV: Survival" and "AUDIO: Dust Breeding". My reasoning for this is that there are numerous mentions of the events of "Storm Harvest" in "Dust Breeding" when the Doctor and Ace are talking about the Krill. My reason all three novels here is that all three run together.

Hex's time
I want to enquire as to why Hex's time as a companion is where it is and where it should be placed. We need to remember that there is a "young Ace" and "older Ace," and I understand she is "young" until she leaves in Love and War, but all that time she gives the Doctor credit again and again until she's had enough manipulation and leaves. I suppose it's where it is because Benny's not there, but it just seems odd that Ace would take all that time to finally snap and leave. David Bishop (who wrote Enemy of the Daleks) said he based his Ace on the "paramilitary" version from Virgin. I think that's fine because it shows that as a precursor to how battle-hardened she'll become as she picks up more and more experience. This is kind of a tangent, though; what I'm primarily concerned with is the placement of Cat's Cradle and possibly Nightshade in relation to Hex and my concern is in relation to the end of "young Ace." I think she is young enough to have Cat's Cradle before Hex (also the Doctor has not been to Alaska in Cat's Cradle but will be with Hex in Lurkers at Sunlight's Edge). A few months exist between Nightshade and Love and War and I think Hex spends years in the TARDIS, so he would go before. So...I guess this was just about moving three novels, but it helps in understanding Ace's development. User:Steed 12/21/2013 00:27am.
 * I know it can't be helped because of the nature of it, but it's tricky to order the New Adventures and the audios because (obviously) Ace doesn't mention Hex while at the same time she's still young by Love and War. In Nightshade the Doctor and Ace haven't been anywhere exciting since the TARDIS got repaired, so this can take place after the Black TARDIS story arc, but there can always be unseen adventures. There's a few months between Nightshade and Love and War so Hex's time can't take place between those stories, and so, as stated above, has to take place after Cat's Cradle because of the Alaska bit. The major way we can kind of determine when Hex's time takes place, and incorporate the adult-esque Ace, is to have the audios take place before Timewyrm when the Doctor and Ace's memories are altered. Although this would bring into question why the Doctor would make himself forget Hex. Either he just doesn't mention him or he's really manipulative of Ace. Steed ☎  03:07, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

More
I think Excelis Decays (audio story) comes later in his timeline.

For the pre-Fellow Travellers (comic story) strips, check out pages 36-39 of DWM 168. 197.88.62.248talk to me 16:47, March 19, 2015 (UTC)

Ace and Hex
Before, we had the TV lead into the novels and audios, and then go back to the novels, depending on how old Ace is and whether Benny is present. How did we get Hex's stories taking place after Benny leaving and Ace rejoining for the second time? Steed ☎  00:55, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * There's a whole list of reasons that the PDA and Big Finish Ace stuff fits only after the New Adventures. To start with, even ignoring The Lights of Skaro we know that Ace unambiguously travels with the Doctor after Set Piece from The Prisoner's Dilemma, which ends with her losing an unknown amount of her memory. Sophie Aldred has said in BTS segments that she plays Ace as younger in Theatre of War and All-Consuming Fire because they're set earlier than her main Big Finish appearances. In You Are the Doctor and Other Stories we see Ace being taught more and more TARDIS piloting, but in Deceit she's bitter that the Doctor has always refused to show her how to do anything. In Shadowmind Ace is still rigorously keeping track of her age, but by Afterlife she's completely lost track. In Love and War, Ace hasn't had sex since Glitz, which means her extended relationship in A Death in the Family has to be after. In early New Adventures, the Doctor hasn't had a sonic screwdriver since The Visitation, but he has one in The Harvest. In Timewyrm: Exodus, Ace is positively gleeful about killing Nazis, but her character has developed by Colditz and she's really shaken up by Kurtz's death. The list is only likely to get longer as time goes on and Big Finish continues to develop Ace and the Doctor's characters in a general forward direction, instead of aiming for Love and War.Fwhiffahder ☎  17:38, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok. I can understand some of those, and why Big Finish would want to develop their own Ace, but what about Signs and Wonders where Ace sees herself wearing a high collar (UNIT: Dominion, The Lights of Skaro) and riding a bike through Paris (Set Piece) in the future? I know the Doctor makes a vague comment about "different universes" but we're trying to create a single timeline. I could understand Prisoner's Dilemma taking place after Hex and the novels with her memory, but that might not be the starting point after she leaves in Set Piece and goes to the Academy. The general consensus seems to be that Timewyrm takes place immediately after Survival, but because of it's very plot device (the Doctor erasing his memory and Ace's by accident) Hex's stories and others could actually take place between the TV series and the New Adventures (at least Love and War) and just not be remembered. Steed ☎  03:01, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * The Prisoner's Dilemma doesn't indicate when they got back together, it just makes it irrefutable that they travel together after Set Piece. Signs and Wonders is annoying, but that scene can hardly be considered definitive since it refers to multiple timelines and Ground Zero. Timewyrm: Genesys has to be directly after Survival because of the Cheetah virus, and there's no way the audios could be before Survival. Ace is also a lot older in the audios than in Survival/Timewyrm: Exodus. Fwhiffahder ☎  05:00, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Survival and Timewyrm
Where does the idea of the Timewyrm series taking place "immediately" after Survival come from? The back cover doesn't state "immediately," and the article Interweaving with the New Adventures states the Timewyrm novels "follow on" from Survival. If there can be a gap between the TV story and the novels, this could account for the placement of some stories if the Doctor editing his memory is taken into account. Steed ☎  04:58, May 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * Ace is still recovering from the cheetah virus, so there can't be stuff where she's not affected by it between them. Stories can still be placed between the TV episodes though. Fwhiffahder  ☎  14:24, May 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * But her feeling the Cheetah virus is still referenced later in Cat's Cradle: Witchmark, and it's not like it's referenced in every story inbetween. She even feels it later in First Frontier when she's near the Master. Steed ☎  21:49, May 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * First Frontier is a completely different case, where she's only affected by the proximity of Cheetah-Master and his pet. Here's the passage from Timewyrm: Genesys:
 * they had taken off in the TARDIS from near her home. Perivale, West London. Not much of a home. They had fought the Master (image of a sneering, bearded face, elegant clothing and fangs) on the planet of the Cheetah people (smell of blood, pounding of feet, the thrill of the hunt, the…)
 * So as far as her newly-restored memory is concerned they've just left Survival. There's also a virus-reaction there. Considering Cat's Cradle: Witch Mark I think we can say that there may be time between Survival and Timewyrm: Genesys, but not much and she's now completely forgotten it. Fwhiffahder ☎  16:35, May 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * Granted, but that's my point. The fact that she doesn't remember it means that any amount of time could've passed between the two stories. Of course, this can only go so far before we take Ace's age into account. But it is possible, if needed in the future, for stories to happen between Survival and Timewyrm. Steed ☎  01:50, June 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, not any amount of time. Just a small amount. There's her memory, but there are also the physical effects of the virus.Fwhiffahder ☎  19:01, June 6, 2016 (UTC)

Apparently, The Fearmonger is set in-between Nightshade and Love and War
According to Jonathan Blum, he said that The Fearmonger is best placed in-between Nightshade and The Fearmonger.: http://www.doctorwhoreviews.altervista.org/7R.htm
 * It made sense at the time The Fearmonger was written, but not anymore. It's got to be shortly before Colditz, but Colditz starts the "Just McShane" arc, and Ace's characterization during and after The Harvest definitely won't fit before Love and War. Fwhiffahder ☎  16:30, October 7, 2016 (UTC)

Placement of Relative Dementias - Ace's age
The timeline has Relative Dementias significantly too late in the sequence. As the comment on it says, "Ace ... is still under the legal drinking age." Since Ace had reached the legal drinking age by Survival, Relative Dementias has to be before that.


 * For the benefit of Americans (among others), it's worth pointing out that the legal age for buying & consuming alcoholic drink in a pub (bar) in Britain is 18, the same as the age of majority (legal adulthood).

In Dragonfire, Ace was 16. We don't know whether she was newly 16 or very nearly 17 but we do know (from her own words) that she was 16.

In Battlefield, set in Britain, the Doctor stopped Ace from buying alcoholic drink, because she was then still under the legal drinking age.

In Survival, also set in Britain, the Doctor made no objection to Ace buying alcoholic drink, indicating that he knew she had by then reached the legal drinking age. Ace having turned 18 by Survival is entirely reasonable, given her age during Dragonfire & the number of adventures she'd had in the interval.

Since Relative Dementias refers back to Battlefield (Ace escaping from alien spaceships underwater) & Ace is still under the legal drinking age in the novel, the novel must be somewhere between Battlefield & Survival.

The Curse of Fenric is very obviously Ace's "coming of age" story, suggesting that she turned 18 at about the time of that story, so Relative Dementias probably belongs before that, too.

Any story that has Ace under the British legal drinking age, has to be before Survival. --89.243.193.140talk to me 06:07, July 10, 2017 (UTC)

Placement of the Benny New Adventures and the muddled timeline
Recently I moved the events of the first two New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield boxsets to happening shortly after Lungbarrow and shortly before the bulk of the events depicted in The Prisoner’s Dilemma.

I thought perhaps I should come back and explain my justifications for this move (and also speak about some other issues I have with the timeline, but I’ll get to that) so that it doesn’t cause issues in regards to editing further down the line, it’s probably best to discuss it here.

I believe that the placement I’ve set out is the best one for several reasons:


 * It’s never specified when these sets take place for the Doctor and Ace, other than towards the end of the VNAs and presumably some time after Lungbarrow, so there’s no worry about where it should go in respect to Hex.


 * They open up a gap for Ace to travel with the Doctor indefinitely after the VNAs and after she has initially joined the academy on Gallifrey.


 * We know that Ace eventually returns to the academy, so placing these sets after the Big Finish Monthly Range is a waste of the narrative gap that is opened to us. Placing these sets earlier doesn’t change the context of any stories significantly, especially combined with the mindwipe in The Prisoner’s Dilemma. By placing these sets later, we're just introducing two unexplained exits for Ace when there only need be one.


 * The Prisoner’s Dilemma never explains how Ace ended up back with the Doctor, it just makes it irrefutable that she travelled with the Doctor after Happy Endings and sets up a potential explanation for her reset in the Monthly Range. In addition to this, the brief reference to Benny fits with the ending of the first New Adventures set.


 * Ace is still on Gallifrey at the conclusion of Lungbarrow. Perhaps she did go back to Earth and continue being time’s Vigilante as she intended, or perhaps she changed her mind and remained on Gallifrey?


 * The only reason we have these two narrative gaps after Lungbarrow and before the TV movie is because we work on the assumption that the Hex stories must fit later. So in that respect it doesn’t really matter narratively where the sets go as theyre intended to go in this slot whereas the Monthly Range is far more ambiguous as to when in the Doctor’s timeline it’s set.

I also think that these timelines still rely too much on the observations of the reference guide and I’ve seen many stories, particularly short trips that have an arbitrary placement, as described by the person who compiled the guide himself, put just anywhere in the Timeline without and suitable rationale. And then at times when a rational is given, it’s something nonsensical like “This story is placed here becase Ace has sunglasses”.

I don’t think putting stories in the undated section should be a taboo thing to do, right now the timeline isn’t as coherent as it could be.

SarahJaneFan ☎  11:46, September 16, 2018 (UTC)

Titan Comics
I wrote up the "Reunion with Counter-Measures" section on the Seventh Doctor's page and I feel this timeline should stick to that. While COMIC: The Armageddon Gambit, Operation Volcano, and Crossing the Rubicon do not outright contradict VNA and Big Finish continuities, they do not adhere to them either. The only explicit placement info is post-Survival, so between "Work to do" and "Trouble with the Timewyrm" is the placement I prefer. LegoK9 ☎  20:43, June 24, 2019 (UTC)

Well I can’t really argue with the placement specifically because as long as it’s post-Survival it’s otherwise arbitrary. But what I will say is that the Seventh Doctor article shouldn’t have any bearing on this page because they’re two completelt separate things. This isn’t considered a factual article by the wiki and there is no rule that it has to match up to the Seventh Doctor page, if it’s felt so strongly by people that it should match, they should edit the article rather than the timeline. On top of that, what you prefer really doesn’t have Bearing on anything, there’s other people editing the these timelines. I created the Brooke page, but I don’t claim to have a monopoly on all things Brooke. Overall, I’m indifferent to the placement as the comics werent even in my preferred placement before they were moved, but I completely disagree with the reasoning for why they should be moved, so I’ll look forward to seeing what other people think on the matter. SarahJaneFan ☎  21:14, June 24, 2019 (UTC)


 * The Titan comics do not contradict any other story, but are placed lower due to two pieces of subtle evidence: Ace and the TARDIS interior. Ace is depicted as looking much older than in the television series, looking much like she is described in the Hex audio stories, hence being placed shortly before those. Meanwhile, the TARDIS has an interior not unlike the Victorian interior seen in Doctor Who, but is less "gothic" in appearance, implying that it is the interior the TARDIS chose after Lungburrow and the interior that was redecorated in The Settling before the Doctor has to rebuild and redesign it in Excelis Decays after the events of Ground Zero and finally goes for the macabre look after The Eight Doctors, at least in theory.BananaClownMan ☎  23:39, June 24, 2019 (UTC)

At Childhood's End
Spoilers ahead for At Chilhood’s End, so don’t read if you don’t want to get potentially spoiled. Right, so here’s the dilemma.

There is an Interlude in this book featuring the Seventh Doctor and Ace. Of course we’ve already got an entry for it with a few details, but I thought I’d go into it a bit more here as it causes a few issues.

Ace and the Doctor arrive on a barren planet and the date is given as 1990 (I’m assuming it’s supposed to be circa 1990 from Ace’s perspective). There was a war between two species on the planet and one species used a weapon called the quantum anvil (a type of quantum possibility engine) to fracture the other species' timeline into infinite possibilities, leaving them unable to interact with the real world.

Long story short, the Doctor basically pushes Ace into this as part of one of his master plans. Ace then sees visions of her entire life up to that point. Then she sees a vision of herself as she currently is in that moment, which then splits off into multiple visions of possible futures. This includes Spacefleet, Time’s Vigilante, Bernice Summerfield, Gallifrey, and a young man who could be either Hex or Jan, or even someone else entirely. She also sees visions of Fenric’s earth still being a possibility and she decides that the timeline where that doesn’t happen is the only one she wants to live in. It’s difficult to explain but she keeps seeing visions of Earth that clearly there as inspiration for her to set up A Charitable Earth.

Now the issue comes from the fact that after she sees all these potential futures, she finds out the Doctor has intentionally manipulated and endangered her once again. And as you can imagine, she isn’t happy. The Interlude ends with Ace telling the Doctor that she is leaving him.

So At Childhood’s End effectively posits that Ace leaves the Doctor and goes back to Earth to set up A Charitable Earth, while the VNAs, Gallifrey and Ground Zero are still all possible futures for her.

The only way around this I can currently think of, is if we assume she doesn’t actually leave. Perhaps if we place the At Childhood’s End Interlude immediately before Ace’s Timewyrm: Genesys mindwipe, that might explain why she sticks around. Otherwise I can’t think of any logical solution except separating the timeline into separate continuities and I know for a fact that isn’t going to happen.

So I thought I’d just post here to see if anyone has any objections or other ideas in regards to this development. SarahJaneFan ☎  23:39, February 7, 2020 (UTC)


 * That does seem to be the best place to place this placement.BananaClownMan ☎  23:17, February 8, 2020 (UTC)