User:SOTO/Forum Archive/Inclusion debates/@comment-27280472-20160208162907

The Confessions of Dorian Gray and the Big Finish Sherlock Holmes series should be considered valid sources. There's never been a discussion about Sherlock Holmes besides CzechOut's baseless dislike of it, and The Confessions of Dorian Gray can't really be discussed separately — the two are inextricably linked.

Do the series meet the four little rules? The first three are obviously yes. The fourth should be considered a yes as well.

Dorian Gray may be a public domain character, but there's one particular version of him used by Big Finish. He's played by Alexander Vlahos, and differs from the book version in that he A) didn't die at the end, and B) has black hair, not blond. That's the version who appears in Shades of Gray, The Confessions of Dorian Gray, The Ghosts of Christmas, and The Worlds of Big Finish.

There's only one of this Dorian. Big Finish did not intend for the Dorian in Shades of Gray and The Worlds of Big Finish to be a different version from the one in The Confessions of Dorian Gray. The Confessions of Dorian Gray hasn't contradicted Shades of Gray, which shows him living into the 27th century at least. The Worlds of Big Finish continues the Holmes/Dorian relationship from Ghosts of Christmas Past and The Fallen King of Britain. Trying to divide his appearances into two characters would mean that the DWU version has The Worlds of Big Finish (because of the other DWU characters, and referencing Holmes and Dorian's friendship), Ghosts of Christmas Past and The Fallen King of Britain (because of Holmes, and the latter introduces Simon Darlow), Confessions Series 3 and The Spirits of Christmas (because of Simon, and both involve Tobias Matthews), The Heart That Lives Alone (because of Toby), etc. There's no clean line where you can divide Dorian's appearances in two, because they're intended to be the same character. Admittedly this wiki has mutilated characters' histories beyond all recognition before, banishing half of Sutekh's appearances to the Faction Paradox ghetto.

Simon Handcock says Confessions isn't a spin-off. But Big Finish doesn't have the same meaning for "spin-off" as a lot of people on this wiki. To Big Finish, the line between Doctor Who and non-Doctor Who series is whether they require licensing from the BBC. That's what separates the characters in The Worlds of Doctor Who from The Worlds of Big Finish. A "spin-off" is to Big Finish a series written about another series's character(s). Jago & Litefoot is about the characters from The Talons of Weng-Chiang. Bernice Summerfield is about the character from the New Adventures. The Confessions of Dorian Gray is about a new character, who also happens to be in the same universe as Benny and Holmes and Iris and Vienna and Graceless.

The Nicholas Briggs Sherlock Holmes is also set in the same universe as Doctor Who. The Worlds of Big Finish references Ghosts of Christmas Past, which is part of the ongoing Big Finish arc about Holmes returning from his beekeeping in Sussex (seen in The Adventure of the Perfidious Mariner and both of their box sets so far). The Worlds of Big Finish has Mycroft played by David Warner specifically because of The Adventure of the Diogenes Damsel. The Big Finish adaptation of All-Consuming Fire is as much part of their Sherlock Holmes series as it is Doctor Who: It has Briggs and Earl as Holmes and Watson, the same narration style with Watson as their own series, and begins with their Sherlock Holmes theme. Someone said of All-Consuming Fire that "It's a crossover, it doesn't mean the whole Sherlock range is part of the DWU," but what does that mean? If it's intended to be the same character as in their Sherlock Holmes series, and it's set in the same universe as Doctor Who, then that series is also set in the same universe as Doctor Who.

CzechOut says that "The DWU situation regarding Holmes is already far too complicated without that hassle" of Big Finish Holmes, but since when is that a valid argument? "It's complicated, so let's ignore it"? And Big Finish Sherlock Holmes doesn't make it any more complicated. I don't think it's actually possible to come up with a view of Holmes's existence that isn't already in the DWU. All-Consuming Fire says "Holmes" and "Watson" are fictional names for real people who were began to respond to those names later in their careers, and that Doyle co-wrote the stories with "Watson." Evolution, released only three months later, treats them as fictional. The Adventure of the Diogenes Damsel is a sequel to All-Consuming Fire, but unequivocally supports Holmes and Watson as their real names. The Big Finish series, on the other hand, is based on the premise that these are dramatisations of previously unknown Holmes stories. They could be co-written with Doyle, and Holmes and Watson could be pseudonyms. "Holmes" has only been treated as a real name at the end of his career, which also tallies with All-Consuming Fire.

These two aren't like The Minister of Chance, which is a continuation from a NOTVALID story and so would contribute nothing by being on this wiki. Without Sherlock Holmes or Confessions, we have multiple characters' histories being diced for no legitimate reason. Is there any harm to considering them valid sources?

If they're not allowed on this wiki, there at least needs to be some kind of policy for connections with other wikis about DWU stuff, to avoid the current fragmented nightmare.