Howling:Moffat confirms.. the 21st century invasions never happened.

At least, as of The Big Bang, humans in the 21st century will now be very suprsied if they see aliens because, simply put, they're not in recorded history anymore, appararantly. They're... gone. Damn cracks. Thanks, Moffat. The Big Bang, the explosion, changed the Whoniverse, Moffat confirms. I believe it was confirmed in DWM. Anyways, I found out in the spoiler thread of Gallifrey Base, here's the post (including text from the interview about it): http://gallifreybase.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2814470&postcount=3

So... what the hell do we do with the timeline article now? As of series 5, the timeline has been reworked... heavily. This will also rule out anyone from the RTD era returning because the show technically... well, all of that will have been erased with the invasions. It seems 21st century Earth is the only time period affected by the events of the finale... i'm assuming the future still pans out how it had with the invasions. Oh, whatever. But how will this affect SJA, a world where there are remembed invasions? Has SJA been afected, too? It seems that Torchwood has - apparantly, as of series 4 Torchwood, few seem to even be aware of aliens and invasions, fitting it with the events of the series 5 finale of Doctor Who.

Delton Menace 00:03, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

If this actually pans out on screen, mark me down for "do NOT like" - I despise erasing/rewriting years of importannt history from a show. Besides that, it makes no sense at all with the dialog and information presented in the finale about how all this would work. As, as mentioned, how it will mesh with SJA - it's a kids show, so changing the rules on them is a more unwieldy proposition than on Torchwood. I was so thrilled with the finale before, and now I'm just disappointed. 207.171.242.66 00:11, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, also what does this do to the entries for Adelaide Brook and the new species and heck, everyone's articles that existed in the past few years. I mean, Adelaide's death was fixed, and it was caused by her being there, and her being there was from the Daleks and. . . . 207.171.242.66 00:18, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well, it basically means the timeline has been split so that it now takes on a similar, but alter timeline. No one is aware of alien and all of that stuff anymore... I like to think that despite all of the changes made toi the 21st century, the future stories remain the same. It's all very confusing. But if the 21st century has been changed so damn much, won't all the stories set in the future change, too? Or maybe time makes them happen the same. Oh, it's so damn confusing. But fact is, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead will still happen, despit ethe changes made to our time period. Bah, it's all so confusing.

I'm guessing the changes apply to SJA, too. No one should be well aware of aliens on there anymore, either. Delton Menace 00:43, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Even more confusing - both Martha and Rose joined the Doctor in the midst of big, public alien events that I assume are erased. So neither of them was ever a companion, right? This is just crazy. I cannot believe they want to erase years of series continuity. Oh, that sort of thing so ticks me off - I think you have to go by previous continuity when writing for an already established fandom. I love continuity. Continuity porn is tossed in for people like me. I can understand why they might want to erase aliens from the public concscience for story-telling reasons, but this was not the way to do that. Right now I don't even care about the Christmas special or next series. 207.171.242.66 00:48, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I know how you feel. I love continuity being expanded on, not split or erased... They could have dome something less confusing and that wouldn't annoy people - have some kind of huge global memory wipe, but not bloody erased the events themselves. They could have made it so that many people had their memories erased, and few would remember or semi-remember, like Donna during The End of Time. It would help explain no one remember Daleks in the episode 'Dalek' but explain that Adelaide was among those who remembered. But no, they had to do the erase thing to have no one know about aliens and what not.

Funny enough, if so much 21st century stuff is all gone, that means the meetings between the Doctor and Sarah will be gone. So how if he appear in SJA? Eh, this is all confusing. We'll see what happens.


 * So he's erased 'Blink', one of his own stories? Hah, what comes around goes around. And I hate this decision he's made. I'm going to resort to live in an imaginary world where Moffat never did that.


 * But there's another point raised here, in terms of mass article changing. I say we don't change them until a TV story at least confirms it. Or we don't do it all. The evil dude. 05:35, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's already been bloody confirmed. The cracks did history in and out, the universe was destroyed, time was changed left and right. Then Moffat confirmed that there are no longer any big invasions and all of that. He clearly noted that the finale reset it so that the Earth in Doctor Who is once again like our own, and people will be shocked whenever they see aliens in that ime period from now on. The only things that have been erased are all those invasion world-changing things. They wanted it so that no one knows about aliens again, apparantly, so they used the cracks and the whole universe reboot.
 * It's already been bloody confirmed. The cracks did history in and out, the universe was destroyed, time was changed left and right. Then Moffat confirmed that there are no longer any big invasions and all of that. He clearly noted that the finale reset it so that the Earth in Doctor Who is once again like our own, and people will be shocked whenever they see aliens in that ime period from now on. The only things that have been erased are all those invasion world-changing things. They wanted it so that no one knows about aliens again, apparantly, so they used the cracks and the whole universe reboot.
 * It's already been bloody confirmed. The cracks did history in and out, the universe was destroyed, time was changed left and right. Then Moffat confirmed that there are no longer any big invasions and all of that. He clearly noted that the finale reset it so that the Earth in Doctor Who is once again like our own, and people will be shocked whenever they see aliens in that ime period from now on. The only things that have been erased are all those invasion world-changing things. They wanted it so that no one knows about aliens again, apparantly, so they used the cracks and the whole universe reboot.


 * He clearly said that history has been wibbled, or something like that. They needed a way to make it so that the Whoniverse Earth was like ours again - as noted in Flesh and Stone, the cracks unwrote time, erasing two huge invasions. That was the first sign that they wanted Earth back to being unaware, and now he well, confirmed that it's all gone. Delton Menace 05:48, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * But surely small alien invasions still happened and its only the huge ones that made humans aware of aliens that have been erased, so things like the battle of canary warf, the slitheen invasion and journeys end dalek invasion never happend but smaller things like blink and the empty child etc still happned. remember old who still had things like auton invasions and contact with aliens but the human race as a whole was not aware of their existence, as far as i can see whith the new series its just like 'officical' first contact hasnt been made for the general public. 217.23.232.194 08:09, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * But surely small alien invasions still happened and its only the huge ones that made humans aware of aliens that have been erased, so things like the battle of canary warf, the slitheen invasion and journeys end dalek invasion never happend but smaller things like blink and the empty child etc still happned. remember old who still had things like auton invasions and contact with aliens but the human race as a whole was not aware of their existence, as far as i can see whith the new series its just like 'officical' first contact hasnt been made for the general public. 217.23.232.194 08:09, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I touched on this in another thread. There were many continuity issues created in the 60s and early 70s because they set episodes in the near future. Like Mondas invading the Earth in 1986. Regardless this had to have been planned for sometime because peoples memories starting getting wonky back in the Next Doctor when no remembers a giant robot trashing london in the 1850s. This isnt something that Moffet has just pulled out of his rear. The question I have had since this Time reboot was being hinted at is how the Time Lords were effected. The sad irony of the Time War was that after the Doctor kills everyone, Davros and the Daleks survived while the Time Lords were wiped out. The Doctor pretty much screwed that one up. 173.57.144.238 22:32, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should note it until it is somehow confirmed on screen. Although Moffat has "confirmed it", he's "confirmed" lies before. Until there is on screen evidence, the only place to not it is in the behind the scenes sections. It doesn't make sense that the Doctor says that everything will be returned to where it should be, but those things aren't. Presently, on screen information rules over Moffat. Unless those things that were erased, the Angels etc stay erased, unless focused on and remembered. Also, the whole "past companions did not happen" is a big no-no. The only reason I can see for the events of Journey's End not happening is that, after the Earth was returned home, the remains of the Daleks were absorbed through the cracks (the same way Rory was), causing people to forget them. Otherwise, the whole earth would not exist. --The Thirteenth Doctor 12:22, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with The Thirteenth Doctor, Moffat has lied before and furthermore it doesn't make any sense at all. Jack said that everything changes in the 21st century meaning that the invasion atempts were part of the recorded history up until the 51st century. It doesn't make any sense because if The the Battle of Canary Wharf never happened then Rose wouldn't leave the TARDIS and if the War in the Medusa Cascade never happened then the 10th doctor would use his spare hand when he regenerated in The End of Time. This is A MASSIVE continuity shift/error or any other word that pops into mind. This also contradicts a very possible theory which states that when the 10th Doctor regenerated the damage to the TARDIS allowed the entity known as the Voice to gain control of the TARDIS and to crash it. If the TARDIS never exploded then the cracks never happened and the invasions were never erased from time(asuming that the theory is correct). Time Guardian 14:17, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, Time Guardian. Also, Moffat pointed out in his Flesh and Stone episode that time travelers are not affected by time being unwritten or re-written. While events ar eerased of changed, time travelers will still remember and not be affected. At least, the Doctor won't be affected in any shape or form. Doctor Who, as Moffat has said many times, does not have a strict, linear timeline. Series 5, his series, constatly mentioned that time can be rewritten and unwriten, and it mentioned several times that events are in flux. It's a theme of Moffat's series: the rewirting of time.
 * I think Moffat said in that interview that erasing those things clears up some continuity errors, rather than having the producers ignore the invasions, which would create errors by having people not remember invasions if they had still actually happened. He directly pointed out that he wanted the Whoniver present day Earth more in line with our world: people would be suprsied by seeing aliens, not be like, "Oh, it's them aliens again."
 * He pointed out in older interviews that Doctor Who willl not be a slave of it's own so-called continuity, and that the Doctor's time traveleing changes history all the time (see: The Waters of Mars, The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, ect.). But his traveleing in general rewrites history left and right. The show does not follow one basic continutiy, it creates new timelines, a lot. Delton Menace 17:52, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think we can rely on time travellers not being affected, though. After all, in this series Amy forgot Rory for a bit ... and I think River did too, although I'd have to look it up. You can't exactly say Amy wasn't at the eye of the storm, either! I don't think we can make predictions as to what will be gone or not, so I'd rather wait and see, and not rewrite whole chunks unnecessarily. the angel Jean - Smith&#39;s little elf 03:01, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny enough, I believe continuity should be built on, not bloody erased to make room for different continuity. Bah. Delton Menace 12:10, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Amy forgot Rory because he was part of her personal time-line, and River never met Rory so she can't have forgotten him. 82.33.57.244 12:22, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wasn't there a big deal about time never truly being changed? How could Amy ever TRULY remember Rory, or even the Doctor if they ACTUALLY never existed? I think beings and events are just forgotten, and those left dont think too hard about them... a bit like a perception filter, which appeared multiple times through the series. I'm not one to join imaginary dots, but... 86.179.252.129 11:20, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Moffat is just trying to wind us up. Chuck us in the deep end and see what we speculate. And if it is true, it'll hopefully resolve it next series. Or, better yet, but more unlikely, Christmas 2010.
 * Like I've said before erasing the invasion atempts is causing a PARADOX not a simple timeline being re-written. But there's a loophole, the Doctor said that major changes in the timeline would result in a parallel universe being created so it's possible(if my logic is correct) that our universe remained the same but it created a universe in which the invasion atempts never happened. And I mean that if the Dalek fleet along with Davros was erased from existence then the Daleks would never exist and the entire history of the universe changes in the blink of an eye so erasing the Medusa Cascade incident would mean erasure of the Dalek race completely(which didn't happen because the invasion was NEVER erased in order to prevent the formation of the forementioned PARADOX). Time Guardian 10:26, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. You'd have to cosider the whole history of an object/person being erased before making asumptions about how it changes the timeline.
 * Wasn't there a big deal about time never truly being changed? How could Amy ever TRULY remember Rory, or even the Doctor if they ACTUALLY never existed? I think beings and events are just forgotten, and those left dont think too hard about them... a bit like a perception filter, which appeared multiple times through the series. I'm not one to join imaginary dots, but... 86.179.252.129 11:20, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Moffat is just trying to wind us up. Chuck us in the deep end and see what we speculate. And if it is true, it'll hopefully resolve it next series. Or, better yet, but more unlikely, Christmas 2010.
 * Like I've said before erasing the invasion atempts is causing a PARADOX not a simple timeline being re-written. But there's a loophole, the Doctor said that major changes in the timeline would result in a parallel universe being created so it's possible(if my logic is correct) that our universe remained the same but it created a universe in which the invasion atempts never happened. And I mean that if the Dalek fleet along with Davros was erased from existence then the Daleks would never exist and the entire history of the universe changes in the blink of an eye so erasing the Medusa Cascade incident would mean erasure of the Dalek race completely(which didn't happen because the invasion was NEVER erased in order to prevent the formation of the forementioned PARADOX). Time Guardian 10:26, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. You'd have to cosider the whole history of an object/person being erased before making asumptions about how it changes the timeline.
 * Like I've said before erasing the invasion atempts is causing a PARADOX not a simple timeline being re-written. But there's a loophole, the Doctor said that major changes in the timeline would result in a parallel universe being created so it's possible(if my logic is correct) that our universe remained the same but it created a universe in which the invasion atempts never happened. And I mean that if the Dalek fleet along with Davros was erased from existence then the Daleks would never exist and the entire history of the universe changes in the blink of an eye so erasing the Medusa Cascade incident would mean erasure of the Dalek race completely(which didn't happen because the invasion was NEVER erased in order to prevent the formation of the forementioned PARADOX). Time Guardian 10:26, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. You'd have to cosider the whole history of an object/person being erased before making asumptions about how it changes the timeline.

Does anyone have a functioning link for this interview/confirmation? The original link posted by Delton Menace doesn't work (anymore). DigiFluid 17:35, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * It never worked in the first place. You need to be registered before you can see it, which is kind of silly if it's supposed to be an article for general viewing. You may have to create an account with them. You'd be better of asking Delton Menace on his talk page. He'll know more about it than I do. The Thirteenth Doctor 17:39, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

The link should work if you register there, then. But whether you want to or not does't matter. I went back to the post that had a chunk of interview, here is what was said: "more like all bets that we feel like ignoring are off. The increasing problem in Doctor Who is that the people in the show live on a completely different planet from us. They're like 'look, more aliens, planets in the sky, ho hum!' but history has wibbled. Without being too explicit about it, we can have characters suprised at the existence of aliens again. If we feel like it. But let's be honest - it's only us fans who give a toss about all this. So don't expect any 'history has wibbled' scenes. This is just a way for us all to justify continuity errors to ourselves, so we can sleep at night. Don't all thank me at once. N'night."
 * " so, what exactly has or hasn't happened in the doctor who universe, now that the series is over? Are all bets off, as far as doctor who 'history' as we know it?

I really don't like Moffat's tone about the subect, to be honest. He seems pretty uncaring and ignorant regarding continuity. Delton Menace 05:00, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

This depends what "erased" mean.. Rory was absorbed by the cracks but his photographs still existed. The doctor remembered him, as he still remembers all of the events that happened whether the were erased by the cracks or not. Only normal people forgot about them, just like Amy forgot about Rory. So all those event still existed in a way, different timeline or whatever. So i think what Moffat did was indeed was making the humans forget about the major events involving aliens, but in a way those events still happened. Auton Rory had the memories of real Rory before Amy remembered him and brought him back to existence. The properties of the cracks are not as simple as erasing events from existence, otherwise the doctor wouldnt remember them, and they wouldnt leave traces (like Rory's photographs). So Moffat didnt throw continuity out of the window, he just made the humans in the Whoniverse forget about them. One thing however intruiges me.. the doctor said that after Big Bang 2 everything will be restored from the cracks.. AMy's parents are back but not because she remembered them.. they're just back from the cracks because of Big Bang 2... so why dont the other events come back as well? :S 77.42.181.163 08:10, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Up to a point I agree with Moffat. There can't really be any continuity in Doctor Who. Well, there is some continuity, but we've got to allow for some major discontinuities. When time travel is involved, any time the Doctor messes with events the entire timeline generally changes, unless it's a fixed point event. Its really hard to grasp the idea of time travel, especially when it doesn't exist yet for us, but as far as I can tell, mostly all adventures with the Doctor change the future in some way or another. The Thirteenth Doctor 17:20, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, but Russel T. Davies seemed to care and build on continuity regarding the timeline, not psh it aside and throw new stuff in. But what Moffat has done, is just... chuck loads of it out the window, or into the crack, just to have people not aware of alien life. He didn't need to do that, he could have said a certain event erased the memories of the invasions. Ironically, it looks to be that he even erased everything that happened in series 5. If that is the case, how will humans ever go on following the 33rd centruy? The Doctor wasn't there to help them anymore, he wasn't there to stop the Silurians going to war with humas in 2020. The entire timeline will be different now, humas should no longer exist well beyond the 3000s because the Doctor wouldn't have been there to help them (as in The Beast Below), meaning there should be no River Song or Jack anymore. You know, he has really got himself into a discontinuity hole. Delton Menace 07:00, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Delton Menace, that's too speculative at this point to say that everything in Series 5 is gone...or that if the Doctor weren't involved, these people would all die...moreover, Starship UK can only represent the UK less Scotland population at most (and we don't even know if the entire UK was on Starship UK)...the human race doesn't have to end just because the non-Scottish British decided to hop onto a giant man-eating extra-terrestial beast and forced it to abduct them to the middle of nowhere. Also, River Song and Jack have never said they are humans yet...Not to mention that the Doctor didn't help Starship UK, Amy did...Same applies to Silurians, the humans were going to kill all the Silurians with the drill in the story anyway...so the worst that would come out is everyone in the story dies, a war wouldn't come out of it...Also the fact that the Doctor has so much time on his hands, if he didn't come across these event in Series 5, he'll probably come across them in the future (chronicled or not).--222.166.181.56 07:42, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor said Amy's parents would only be back if she remembered them. But Moffat's explanation for no more invasions is that following Big Bag 2 "history has been wibbed." He gave some timey-wimey history-is-not-the-same anymore excuse for their being no invasions. Sigh, and even said there would be no detailed explanation, ust him saying history has been "wibbled." Delton Menace 08:19, August 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Delton, when everything was erased on starship UK etc, it would remove the events and people. When Amy remembered the Doctor, she obviously remembered her adventures with him after he came back. Given that she still had psychiatry sessions, it would seem her younger self did remember him, but since she was discouraged, she believed him to not be real. Then when she remembered, she wasn't remembering her first encounter with him, she was remembering all her other adventures with him. This would bring back the events of series 5 to keep them in place, but since she didn't remember the invasions etc, they wouldn't be brought back.


 * 77, when he says everything will be restored from the cracks, I'm not sure he was talking about all the events the cracks erased, but more like everything that was destroyed during the total event collapse.
 * Of course, there is the other view that perhaps Moffat did bring back all the invasions and people do know about them, and he was just using those examples to help him through this series. The Thirteenth Doctor 12:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * "And I hate this decision he's made. I'm going to resort to live in an imaginary world where Moffat never did that" I am doing the same
 * It all depends on the atoms of the unioverse that were in the pandorica when it was sealed, so whatever was around in space and time at the point the pandorica was sealed has been restored, so for example if the the dalek invasion in the medusa casade has been consumed by the cracks, it technicaly never happend at the point the the pandorica was sealed, so atoms from it werent inside the pandoica therefore could never be restored because they didnt exist, you cant be restored if you never existed in the first place to be erased. it just dependes on what invasions and events Moffat has decided were consumed, but that remains to be seen 217.23.232.194 10:29, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a really bad idea. I don't get why he wants alien invasions erased anyway. Martha Jones knew about aliens before she joined the doc and it made no difference whatsoever. The only reason that Amy didn't know who the daleks were was because they wanted to build up the cracks storyline but other than it would not have been important if she knew they were evil too. This is not just a continuity thing that geeks like me are gonna quibble over these alien invasions have been to important to the whole series to dallas out. They have involved the resurrection of old foes departure of companions and the death of a doctor. If the stolen earth never happened where is Rose where is Donna, Davros is he still in the war or did Caan rescue him but he is now just out there scheming.
 * Now Moffat in his attempt to get a clean slate will have to go back to RTD characters and storylines. Think about it before this cracks thing we knew what had happened to all of them it was a neat end we didn't need anything else but now we don't know where Martha is, does she still know who the doctor is or who the daleks are. Is rose still in our reality now is Donna still a half time lord he will have to answer all these questions and go back to these characters when all he would have had to do was mention planets in the sky before. I might add a show with lots of coninuity references can still be mainstream. RTD's Doctor Who had so many references like his hand being hacked off in the christmas invasion bad wolf fall of torchwood the masters ressurection and mainstream viewers didn't object to that. This whole these invasions never happened but we still have the eleventh doctor will confuse viewers more than just a reference to a famous story that was on two years ago. Winehousefan 15:03, September 29, 2010 [UTC]
 * It all depends on the atoms of the unioverse that were in the pandorica when it was sealed, so whatever was around in space and time at the point the pandorica was sealed has been restored, so for example if the the dalek invasion in the medusa casade has been consumed by the cracks, it technicaly never happend at the point the the pandorica was sealed, so atoms from it werent inside the pandoica therefore could never be restored because they didnt exist, you cant be restored if you never existed in the first place to be erased. it just dependes on what invasions and events Moffat has decided were consumed, but that remains to be seen 217.23.232.194 10:29, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a really bad idea. I don't get why he wants alien invasions erased anyway. Martha Jones knew about aliens before she joined the doc and it made no difference whatsoever. The only reason that Amy didn't know who the daleks were was because they wanted to build up the cracks storyline but other than it would not have been important if she knew they were evil too. This is not just a continuity thing that geeks like me are gonna quibble over these alien invasions have been to important to the whole series to dallas out. They have involved the resurrection of old foes departure of companions and the death of a doctor. If the stolen earth never happened where is Rose where is Donna, Davros is he still in the war or did Caan rescue him but he is now just out there scheming.
 * Now Moffat in his attempt to get a clean slate will have to go back to RTD characters and storylines. Think about it before this cracks thing we knew what had happened to all of them it was a neat end we didn't need anything else but now we don't know where Martha is, does she still know who the doctor is or who the daleks are. Is rose still in our reality now is Donna still a half time lord he will have to answer all these questions and go back to these characters when all he would have had to do was mention planets in the sky before. I might add a show with lots of coninuity references can still be mainstream. RTD's Doctor Who had so many references like his hand being hacked off in the christmas invasion bad wolf fall of torchwood the masters ressurection and mainstream viewers didn't object to that. This whole these invasions never happened but we still have the eleventh doctor will confuse viewers more than just a reference to a famous story that was on two years ago. Winehousefan 15:03, September 29, 2010 [UTC]
 * This is a really bad idea. I don't get why he wants alien invasions erased anyway. Martha Jones knew about aliens before she joined the doc and it made no difference whatsoever. The only reason that Amy didn't know who the daleks were was because they wanted to build up the cracks storyline but other than it would not have been important if she knew they were evil too. This is not just a continuity thing that geeks like me are gonna quibble over these alien invasions have been to important to the whole series to dallas out. They have involved the resurrection of old foes departure of companions and the death of a doctor. If the stolen earth never happened where is Rose where is Donna, Davros is he still in the war or did Caan rescue him but he is now just out there scheming.
 * Now Moffat in his attempt to get a clean slate will have to go back to RTD characters and storylines. Think about it before this cracks thing we knew what had happened to all of them it was a neat end we didn't need anything else but now we don't know where Martha is, does she still know who the doctor is or who the daleks are. Is rose still in our reality now is Donna still a half time lord he will have to answer all these questions and go back to these characters when all he would have had to do was mention planets in the sky before. I might add a show with lots of coninuity references can still be mainstream. RTD's Doctor Who had so many references like his hand being hacked off in the christmas invasion bad wolf fall of torchwood the masters ressurection and mainstream viewers didn't object to that. This whole these invasions never happened but we still have the eleventh doctor will confuse viewers more than just a reference to a famous story that was on two years ago. Winehousefan 15:03, September 29, 2010 [UTC]

Although it was a dumb decision to erase the invasions from the past few years, similar to J.J. Abrams erasing everything after Enterprise in Star Trek, it probably won't cause to many continuity errors. We probably won't ever see Rose or Donna again anyway, and if he ever wanted to bring Davros bac he would have to mention Stolen Earth/Journeys End anyway. The main problem is that he is just being lazy by erasing continuity instead of building on it.Icecreamdif 20:41, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

I agree.. if someone gives this whole thing a minute of thought it won't make sense at all... Erasing such huge events and keeping their consequences is against continuity. The idea that history just builds up around them is just not convincing. What happened to doctordonna? now that the christmas invasion and the stolen earth never happened. And i'm pretty sure that Moffat won't bother to explain it. He doesnt want anything to do with RTD era and for sure he won't go back to any of RTD's characters. I think, if he really wanted humans to be unaware of alien life, he could've done some plot that erased their memories instaed of erasing the whole events! He's letting DW fans feel cheated.

Doctor Who is addressed to adults as well as children. So Moffat should be aware that he can't let some major things unanswered and just say that it's wibbly-wobbly. I really like Matt Smith as the doctor, but frankly series 5 lacked the excitement and emotions that we felt in the last 4 series. The plots were lame and unsurprising, and it seems that Moffat's idea of making the show suitable for all ages, is to make storylines on a kid level, and "adultize" it by including a mini-skirt-wearing stripper, sorry kissogram (??!!!) that wants to snog the doctor (one night stand), and by including some cheap sexual innuendos and references in the episodes.91.73.110.83 21:04, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree that the writing in series 5 is a disappointment. I too think there were too many inappropriate and unecessary moments. 'victory of the Daleks' was a particular disappointment.It had a lame plot, poor dramatic exposition and unbelievable characters, including,sadly, the daleks themselves. Part of the problem may be trying to make each new story more dramatic and universe shattering than the last. IT can lead to overcomplication, annoying continuity contradictions and too many cliched moments. it's just not necessary. The classic series was popular and entertaining enough without having to have 'oh my god, the universe is ending' stories every time.Even in series 4 there were annoying continuity disruptions. in one episode travel to parrallel universes is impossible. he next its on again. one episode the daleks are destroyed forever. The next they're back.I think the daleks have been annihilated at lerast five times if you include the off-screen time war.Exterminateallhumans 21:22, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

The dalkes and parallel universes weren't really continuity errors, because there returns were explained, although they may have been overused. The main problem with Moffat's season isn't that he is trying to make each episode more dramatic. The only episodes where that really happens are the finales, but the entire season wasn't as good as any of the Davies era. The main problem was that althohg there were some good episodes, (Vincent and the Doctor, Time of Anels/Flesh and Stone), but too many of the single part, middle of the season episodes were either bad or just not memorable. The main problem with the Dalek episode was that he was trying to permanently bring back the biggest enemy from the entire show in 1 45 minute episode. The daleks weren't really needed for this seasnon anyway, and he could have waited longer to bring them back, but donei t in abigger, 2 part episode. The finale was OK, but it reminded me of the Seventh Doctor episodes, the episode was ok, but I had no idea what was going on.Icecreamdif 21:53, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. it wasn't necessary to return the daleks. But if they had to be brought back, it was better to do them justice. Most of the drama in that story strangely occurs after the daleks have left, somewhat undramatically. and they are overused. contrast with the third doctor, who encountered the Daleks four times in four years, the fourth who fought them twice, the Fifth, sixth and seventh who met them once. If an enemy is used too often they become tiresome. and this is starting to happen to the daleks. the recent redesign of the daleks is clearly an attempt to sex up an enemy which has become tired and boring. But if they were used sparingly, they are terrifying and interesting enough. The one improvement on the classic series though was not tying thE DALEKS TO Davrros every time. this made the daleks wimpy and weak. But Davros, interesting character though he is, has been reintroducved and i hope he does not re-occur or at least not too often and in a manner that emasculates our favourite iconic enemies. Exterminateallhumans 01:04, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

I must be one of the only people around who actually support this erasing of events 100% :) . I like this because I've been thinking about how to remove the 21st century invasions myself, I believe before the Series 5 finale even. For me, the very "oh look, another alien invasion. Better go, hide, or something." attitude was very boring and no fun at all. I like it because it makes the timeline way more confusing, which is how I like it, and it makes the Whoniverse more like our universe, which makes it easier to falsely believe the Doctor is real :). And remember that the Doctor said quite a few times in this Series that "Nothing is ever forgotten, not really."? I think these invasions still linger in the minds of Humans, and survive through the writers of a fifty-year-old British science fiction series... Rnddim 07:02, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

"There is no problem about changing the course of history - the course of history does not change because it all fits together like a jigsaw. All the important changes have happened before the things they were supposed to change and it all sorts itself out in the end." - Douglas Adams

I guess I don't see how it matters. The continuity that we care about is the continuity of the Doctor and his companions. Like numerous people said above, the Doctor goes around changing history all the time... and we don't really care as long as his personal history remains internally consistent. And since he is the Time Lord, we can assume that what has happened to him and his companions has happened irrespective of whether a later story goes back to an early point in time and causes the setup for the early story to be erased. You could have a series of stories where each story eliminates the possibility that the previous story ever occurred... and they would all still be perfectly valid from the Doctor's perspective and continuity. Heck, if the fourth Doctor had kept the Daleks from ever existing (in Genesis of the Daleks) it wouldn't have changed his personal timeline or continuity of having met the Daleks in The Daleks. That's the fun of time travel. --Raukodraug 16:22, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Yes it would.--Skittles the hog-- Talk 17:31, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

I think this is bullshit that moffat keeps coming out with doctor who can change anything by that logic where is the suspense he can just go back and save Adric or anyone else stop Rose from being trapped in an alternate universe it does have to have some rules about time travel or else its superman spinning the world round no drama whatsoever. Winehousefan,

The Doctor can't change anything that he wants. He still can't go back in his own timeline, and he still can't change fixed points in time. The 21st century invasions have probably neen unerased, but either way it was the cracks that erased them, not the Doctor.Icecreamdif 21:30, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

Call me crazy, but I do not think Moffat is trying to purposely undo anything. It looks as though he is just stating that he is not going to be a slave to Davies' continuity. I think he just gave himself and the writers license to ignore what Davies did and move the series in their own direction, unhampered. If you like what Davies did, I can understand why this would upset you. If you do not like what Davies did, then this can be a good thing. It's not that specific events did or did not happen, they just gave themselves some freedom. All writers take liberty with the DR WHO Continuity. Moffat is simply the first to admit such. Just my two cents. --| Who is Dr. Who? 16:09, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

The way I look at is much the same way I looked at the Time War: a chance for the writers to not have to be chained to the decades of continuity that came before. That doesn't mean they can't build on it, but it frees them from a) having to research niggling details to prep a story, and b) not having to burden a script with exposition about what came before. Monkey with a Gun 11:31, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

They don't have to erase episodes from continuity in order to avoid being chained to previous continuity. As long as new episodes don't directly conflict with old episodes, there isn't a problem. It isn't like they have to fill every episode with references to previous episodes. Long-running television shows should build upon continuity, rather than erasing it. If the previous events have been erased, than Moffat is just as bad as JJ Abrams, erasing almost all of Star Trek continuity so that he could avoid continuity errors.Icecreamdif 20:34, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

The way i see it is that if the events of the 21st century never happened why, the cracks never exsisted how could they erase stuff?, so lets say becuse the doctor was on the other side he was erased from time so the events where gone that would mean the whole of who history would be gone too meaning that the whole thing is self contredictory amy and rory would never of joined the tardis crew so they should and would not remember him the time war would possibley never of happened ( just becuse the doctor did not blown up the daleks does not mean an other time lord would not) earth would become A) an breeding ground for a spesies or a battle ground in a atempt to take over, all of the companions would never of been there and neither would the daleks (possibly) or the master (if the time war never happened he would not be insane) to be honest moffet erasing all of the events is just stupid Time its self might as well of been destroyed if there are any refrences to past series then we know it can not of been erased

Whooligist 21:03, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

God, I hate this crappy idea of Moffat's to erase all those alien attacks from Series 1-4. It just reeks of laziness, and I really don't think he's considered the full implications of what he's done. As others have pointed out, what happens to Donna? Without the Dalek invasion, she wouldn't have become the DoctorDonna, and the Doctor wouldn't have erased her memories. So what the bloody hell happened to her???!! You can't tell me this sort of thing doesn't matter. And what about Martha and Mickey, and everyone else who was so closely involved? Those were all important characters that we cared about, and I think Moffat's ideas are ultimately damaging to them and to the show itself. And how the hell do people explain all the chaos and destruction wrought by the Daleks now, hmm? Moffat seriously needs to think these things through more. EJA 10:16, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think most y'all are making much ado about nohting. who is dr who and monkey with a gun are likely both spot on. They are not erasing anything, just announcing they are not slaves to the RTD era. Most all we know is still there unless they specifically undo something, and so far that has not happened on screen. -- Rest In Peace Sarah Jane \ Talk to me! 15:44, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

I agree a little with both sides of the argument. I am really not a fan of this idea, and it just seems like Moffat is doing whatever he can to erase everything RTD from the show. But I wouldn't really say he has erased continuity. It's not like we just have to pretend the last few series never happened. At the very least all of it did still happen in the Doctor's own timeline, as well as from the perspective of the viewer. Anyway, I hope if he's serious about this that he understands the implications of his decision and perhaps actually has a plan to make it all make sense in the end. -- Darth Oblivion 09:32, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

People are forgetting that time isn't a single straight line. As Darth Oblivion says, even if the invasions are no longer in the memories (or the causal past) of the non-time-traveling Earthicans of the Whoniverse in 2011, they are still in the memories (and the causal past) of the Doctor, and the time travelers who experienced them (not to mention the omniscient third party that views events over their shoulders--that is, us--as proven by the fact that the articles on this wiki didn't rewrite themselves without any of us being able to remember the old versions and the DVDs on our shelves didn't turn into Star Trek). Those events still happened; they're just no longer connected to most people's timelines.

This is no different from any other past-changing events in the show's history. Genesis of the Daleks changed all kinds of past history, but it didn't mean that Barbara no longer has that Thal coat, and the memories of how she got it. The non-time-traveling Thals never had those experiences, but she still did. Sure, she'd have a hard time convincing any Thal of that fact, but not as hard a time as she had explaining herself to her fellow teachers at Coal Hill without any paradoxes being involved.

In the same way, Mickey still spent time in a parallel universe leading the Preachers, and if we saw him in a present-time episode later this season, he'd still be the confident Cyber-killing Martha-marrying Mickey rather than the whiny brat of series 1. Any non-time-traveling humans never experienced Canary Wharf, but he did. So the events that formed his personality aren't part of their past; so what? That's not a paradox--at least no more than time travel itself is. How did he exist at all in Pete's World when he wasn't born anywhere in that universe? How did Amy exist in 1969 when her parents hadn't even met yet? Those are only paradoxes if time is a straight line. And it isn't. --99.33.26.0 06:44, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

i think i havea theory, instead of directly erasing everybody's memory, the cracks removed people's memory, but left those that were mostly exposed to most of the extra terrestrial activity (i.e. Torchwood, Sarah Jane and her Gang). And also, many people might not want to beleive the world shattering events, maybe even trying to forget about them, making it easier for them to forget. Remember the Eye of the Storm theory in regards to The Year that Never Was, it might be like that, and that the people that were central in the events still existed Sclera1 10:58, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

That's not how the cracks have been shown to work though. When the clerics were removed from time, Amy was able to remember them because she was a time traveller, while the other clerics forgot about them, despite the fact that they knew them well. When Rory was erased, Amy forgot about him, despite the fact that she was a time traveller, because Rory was from her time and was an important part of her life. This proves that if anything, the people who were more central to the events are more likely to forget about the invasion. If the invasion really was erased, than the only characters who are likely to remember it are the Doctors, Jack, and the Daleks and Davros.Icecreamdif 20:29, May 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Good point. In fact, maybe not even them. Jack, Davros, and the Daleks were erased along with the rest of the universe, and then re-created along with everything else out of a combination of Amy's memory and the air inside the Pandorica--neither of which had any record of the invasion. So maybe even _they_ don't know about it. River's still a possibility, as she (like the Doctor) was both a time traveler before the cracks opened, and intimately involved in the reboot, but nobody else qualifies. One more thing to tie the two of them together--she's the only person anywhere in spacetime that he can talk to about the Reality Bomb, Davros's traumatic accusations, etc. (Well, maybe the Guardians or other super-beings still remember them, especially since they were presumably still outside the universe when all of time was erased and recreated, to the extent that "when" and/or "still" can be used in the same sentence as "outside the universe" and/or "time was erased"... but the last thing the Doctor needs is to start getting chummy with Eternals.) --99.33.26.0 02:24, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

That's the problem with this whole thing though. River wasn't in Stolen Earth/Journey's End(except for a flashback of her death), so she doesn't remember it anyway, though she has been told about it. If the events were erased from time, then nobody, except the Doctor, can possible remember it. The problem is, though, that the episode dramatically altered the lives of Rose, Mickey, and Donna. It actually means that Donna and Wilf would have never met the Doctor in the first place, because Caan wasn't manipulating timelines, and the Adipose would have never invaded if the Daleks hadn't stolen Adipose 3. It also means that the Pyroviles wouldn't have invaded, and Vesuvius wouldn't have erupted, but that is impossiible because it is a fixed point. Apart from the paradoxes that this would cause, we have only actually seen people removed from time, and I'm not really sure how an event, such as an invasion, could fall into a crack. It doesn't matter though, because the Pandorica contained particles from the original, pre-crack universe, so the invasions were restored with the rest of the universe.Icecreamdif 02:55, May 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * First, it seems like you're trying to argue that the cracks couldn't possibly have erased anything from time. But Moffat has told us that they did, and he's the one writing the show; that's the whole reason for this thread. Unless you're going to stop watching the show, you pretty much have to accept that.


 * As far as "I'm not really sure how an event, such as an invasion, could fall into a crack": The first thing that made the Doctor realize that the cracks were erasing things from time is that Amy didn't remember Journey's End. The next thing he thought of was the Cyberking in London. So, events _did_ fall into cracks and vanish from history. If you want someone to provide a rigorous theory of time travel to explain how that could work, I could do so, but I'm sure it won't be identical to Moffat's internal theory anyway, so is it really worth it?


 * The point about River is this: In Time of the Angels, the Doctor explained that when things are erased from history, anyone who was already a time traveler will still remember them. In Cold Blood, he added that it didn't work when those things are part of their own personal history. The second part isn't relevant here; the only question is whether River was "already" a time traveler when Journey's End happened, and I'm not sure how to answer that (because of the usual confusion of tenses with time travel).


 * Finally, the Pandorica _didn't_ contain particles of the pre-crack universe. It contained particles of the universe _as of the time Amy was locked in it_--which was after the cracks had already erased various bits of history, including those invasions. The air in the Pandorica was the air of an Earth where Journey's End never happened. Therefore, Journey's End wasn't restored. Maybe that wasn't clear enough in the episode (although that's how I interpreted it), but it's certainly clear from what Moffat (and RTD) has said after the fact. --99.33.26.0 03:53, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

When Amy waa locked into the Pandorica, Rory and her parents didn't exist, but htye have been brought back now. I am not denying that the events were ereased at some point, I am just saying that their erasure doesn't entirely make since. It has been shown that the cracks have never existed now, so nothing ever fell into the cracks, so the invasions are back. And before anybody argues that that means that the angels would then return as well, Angel Bob never would have crashed the Byzantium into that planet and woken up the other angels if the crack hadn't been there.Icecreamdif 12:45, May 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * It has been shown that netiher the cracks _nor the things they erased_ have ever existed now. They weren't unerased by the rebooting of the universe. They're still erased--or, if you prefer, in this rebooted universe they never existed to get erased in the first place. Rory, Amy's parents, the Doctor, and the TARDIS are special--they were un-erased only because of the special circumstances surrounding Amy, as the Doctor explained on-screen. Nothing else was un-erased. The Angels that fell into the cracks never existed. Journey's End never happened. And so on.


 * That's the obvious conclusion of everything we've been told. And, while it's possible to come up with fan-wanky arguments against it, what's the point in doing so when, again, Moffat has told us that it's the answer? --99.33.26.0 00:59, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Erm....because Moffat's idea is crap? Because, let's face it, it is. You can't just rip something like Journey's End out of continuity and carry on merry as you please; that story was a major event in the lives of the Doctor, Rose, Donna, etc. Erasing it messes up the timelines of everyone involved. EJA 14:32, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Big Bang 2 didn't create a new universe, it just "rebooted" the old universe. If this is a new universe now, then River's timeline makes no sense at all.Icecreamdif 15:47, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, there are three ways you can take this: (1) Rebooting the universe created a new universe, similar but not identical, including editing out the stuff that had fallen through the cracks (plus restoring Amy's parents, etc.). (2) Rebooting the universe changed absolutely nothing (except Amy's parents, etc.); everything that had been erased by the cracks was still erased. (3) Rebooting the universe somehow un-erased everything that the cracks had erased. There's nothing in the story to give any credence to the last one, and it's the only one that directly contradicts what Moffat is saying. So, why cling to it and insist that it must be right?


 * You know that Moffat is writing stories that take place in a universe where people don't remember Journey's End, etc. If you choose to pretend differently, every time something comes up, like people being shocked by learning that there are aliens, you're going to have to come up with an explanation. Every time, that explanation will have to be something convoluted and completely unmotivated by anything that you've seen, and it'll be completely irrelevant to everyone who accepts the show as it is and as it's intended. What's the point in that? Why not come up with an explanation that actually fits the facts of the show, instead of one that doesn't? --99.33.26.0 02:13, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

i see the cracks this sort of way

if i deleted all the writing on this entire page it would be gone but however people may still remember it such as the people who wrote it who are directly involved in it but people who have just read it or been told of it would be not likely to remember also there would still be evidence that it was there once such as when the cyberking marched over london there would still be the ruins.

also i think that the events stay in peoples 'sub-memory' for example

when the ducks in the pond where gone (TEH) they still called the pond a duck pond even though the ducks had been erased or when amy was able to call back memorys of rory

but i cant help noticing why did all the writing in rivers diary come back?

Whooligist 17:11, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Whoologist, you are simply wrong about how the cracks work. Amy forgot about Rory, and the Clericcs forgot about their friend. If this post was erased from time, we would be the most likely ones to forget about it. 99.33.26.0, you keep talking about people being shocked about alien invasions now, but how are people's actions any different from before. There haven't been that many modern-day Earth episodes during Moffat's era yet, but people don't seem particularly shocked about aliens. In The Eleventh Hour, when the Atraxi put a force field around the planet, people were casually recording the event on their video phones, but nobody seemed particularly surprised at the existance of aliens. Their reaction actually seemed to be more along the lines of "oh look, another alien invasion." In The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, which is the next closest thing that we have to a modern-day Earth episode, people assumed that the Silurians were aliens, and didn't seem to have anhy trouble accepting the idea of extra-terrestrial life. Can you show me any examples of people not believing in alien-life?Icecreamdif 04:29, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

Whooligist, keep in mind that, as the Doctor explained a few times, Amy was special, because she grew up bathed in time energy. So, just because Amy could do it doesn't mean it's what normally happens. As for River's diary, I assume the writing came back because the Doctor, and therefore her history with him, came back, but they obviously didn't spell this out in detail on the show.

Icecreamdif, can I show you examples from 21st century episodes after The Big Bang? Of course not; there haven't been any. All I can show you is what Moffat says we will see, when we do see such episodes.

But if you go back and actually watch The Hungry Earth, people in 2020 weren't at all blasé about the idea of aliens. Nasreen and Tony laughed off the very idea of non-human technology until they saw absolute proof, and even then they were dumbfounded, and kept talking about having "seen the impossible". And they still couldn't convince Ambrose, despite her having seen the energy dome. (Elliot, meanwhile, thought the most likely explanation was that the graves themselves were eating people.) The only time anyone said the word "alien" was Ambrose, after they'd been attacked by the Silurians and captured one (and two of them used the word "monster" before anyone said "alien"). In short, the people of 2020 seemed about as ready to accept aliens as a real-world person of today. If you saw incontrovertible evidence of something intelligent and non-human, given the choice between "supernatural demon", "alien", and "prehistoric Earth reptile", which would you guess? (Also notice that no mentions calling UNIT or Torchwood, so they may also be secret again, or at least they're no longer the first thing people think of when something unexplained happens.) --99.33.26.0 05:43, May 9, 2011 (UTC)