Talk:River Song/Archive 4

Current infobox pic
I am reluctant to start yet another multiple-incarnation infobox pic discussion, but I think I gotta problem with showing the girl in the spacesuit as Melody. I'm not entirely sure we know that yet. I don't think we know, for certain, that the girl in the space suit is the girl who regenerates in New York.

There are a couple of reasons I'm hesitating:


 * 1) Adult River, when she's investigating the moon suit, seems to have no memory of being in it. She's going to town, doing a full-on CSI investigation of it.  If she had been in the suit as the young Melody, we never see Alex Kingston recognise the suit in any way.  And that strikes me as very odd.
 * 2) We still have the unexplained photograph of Amy and an adolescent (Caucasian) Melody to explain. Since we've not yet seen Amy and the New York alleyway kid — who is pictured with Amy — there is still room to doubt that the moon suit kid is Melody.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd be more comfortable with a shot from the New York alleyway than the moon suit. Let's Kill Hitler gives us a defintive answer on who the regenerating girl is; it doesn't necessarily identify the girl in the space suit with the same degree of certainty. 02:27:07 Mon 29 Aug 2011

Except You see the girl right after she forces herself out and is hiding from the Doctor after Amy is captured. She is most certainly the girl in the alleyway. Weather or not it's River is still dodgy to me, since Mels explained she first regenerated as a toddler, but in New York.

We see the little girl regenerate in New York. Mels states that the last time she regenerated, she ended up a toddler in the middle of New York. They're obviously the same person. Aliyoda 13:09, August 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * You're overanalyzing and splitting hairs here, Czech. TIA shows us that the girl in the spacesuit regenerated. LKH tells us that the regenerating girl was River. Little girl in spacesuit=little girl regenerating=River Song. As for River not recognizing the suit, consider: 1) She wouldn't remember much, because of the Silence aliens. River herself claimed that she didn't remember much of the time (Let's Kill Hitler). 2) River needed to keep her identity secret from the Doctor, so she pretended she had never seen the suit before. And 3) River lies. -- Bold  Clone  20:45, August 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * "Day of the Moon" (NOT "The Impossible Astronaut" shows us that the girl in the spacesuit regenerated. "Let's Kill Hitler" tells us that that the last time River/Melody regenerated prior to the "Mels" incarnation, it was in an alleyway in New York and she ended up as a toddler. Yes, everything points to the girl in the space suit being Melody/River. Yes, it'd be a heck of a coincidence for two different people to regenerate in New York alleyways after the destruction of every Time Lord except the Doctor. But nothing has conclusively proven that the girl played by Sydney Wade is in fact Melody. 96.236.40.161 05:28, September 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * 96, Steven Moffat has stated in an interview that the little girl is Melody. Aliyoda 10:20, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Rule No. 1 - The Doctor Lies. What makes you think River didn't? Spoilers, sweetie.

Silence in America Section
The following appears on the main page "From his shocked reaction, she realised that from his perspective, it was their first kiss, and from her perspective she believed it to be their last (TV: Day of the Moon), although this may not be true as an older Doctor must still meet with River before she goes to the library"

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think River and Doctor 10 kiss at library. -- Future Companion


 * See under the Darillium section - a future doctor visits her before the library, giving her an upgraded version of his sonic screwdriver, so it's quite possible they kiss then. --Aliyoda 10:42, August 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * The 10th Doctor only met River once. -- Future Companion


 * Yes, this is a future doctor that will meet her just before the library, perhaps the 12th for example.
 * Aliyoda 07:57, August 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * The 10th Doctor met River only once onscreen. While I expect Moffat to maintain a tight grip on his creation, there is no reason to assume that he did not encounter an earlier version of her as the Tenth Doctor. One wayor the other, it assumes facts not in evidence.Boblipton 22:45, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Imprisonment Section
It has been stated that the man she kills is the Doctor. Why does this keep changing? -- TARDIS 50

This wiki maintains a higher standard of evidence than the Whoniverse. We' require a look inside that astronaut's faceplate at the time and further evidenc that the Doctor is not a ganger or something. If you believe that River killed the Doctor, I can't argue with that. However, I will insist that belief is not knowledge.Boblipton 23:05, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Speculation removed
Some of this has already been dealt with above (Second Melody May Not Be Mels and Incarnation Time Gap). In each case, everyone agrees that we don't know the facts, and yet the article still included the speculation, so I removed it all. While I was in there, I also cleaned up a bunch of minor things—removing redundant sentences, fixing grammar, etc. But those are the only four speculations I removed. --173.228.85.35 05:38, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * We don't know that the little girl is River's first incarnation. We have no idea what happened between disappearing from Demons Run in the 52nd century and being a little girl in American in the late 60s; she might have been taken directly to the early 60s and grown up from there, but that's just a guess, with no confirmation.
 * We don't know that Mels is her next incarnation after the Little Girl. Maybe she time-traveled from 1970 to 1991, or went into stasis, or stayed as a toddler for 21 years, or lived normally and then somehow lowered her age by 21 years, but maybe she lived for 21 years and then regenerated into a toddler in 1991. For all we know, she may have even regenerated again at some point during that 21 years, or traveled the universe for centuries using up multiple bodies (which she'd have to be if the Patience speculation is true—by the way, I'm assuming that one's fine because it's in the "Behind the Scenes" section). It doesn't matter which of these is most likely; all that matters is that we don't have any confirmation for any of them. All we can say is that Mels can't be any later than her 11th incarnation (because River has to have regenerations left over to use up for the Doctor).
 * "Spacesuit Melody" is a fan name for her; the character is only called "The Little Girl", both in-universe and in the credits.
 * We can't say, about who she killed, that "Conjecture is that this man is the Doctor." We haven't heard anyone conjecture that in-universe. Besides, the rest of that paragraph already gives the basis behind that conjecture (the screen showing that she's a murdered, followed by the Doctor's death date), which makes the implication at least as obvious as it is on-screen (and we don't really want to be any more obvious).


 * Sorry, but we do know that Mels is the incarnation immediately following the little girl. She explicitly states in Let's Kill Hitler that last time she regenerated she ended up a toddler in the middle of New York. The Little Girl regenerated in New York. Yes, ok, Steven Moffat hasn't shown us the end of that regeneration, but he expects us to use our brains - it's obvious what happened. We don't have 100% in-universe proof that the 11th Doctor wasn't abducted by the Daleks in Day of the Moon and replaced by a robot replica, but we don't edit pages to reflect this, we use our common sense.
 * Aliyoda 08:02, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Multiple people agree that we don't know. Everyone knows that she said she last regenerated into a toddler in the middle of New York. Everyone also knows that the little girl's regeneration was in 1970, which is 21 years too early. There's a gap that has to be explained either way. Nobody's saying that you theory is impossible, or even unlikely, just that it's not the only possible one, and therefore it's speculation to assert it as the truth.
 * It seems like most of the people who stated an opinion in the two threads above agreed that we don't actually know. Just because you disagree with that opinion doesn't mean you can ignore everyone else. If we want to put something in the article that isn't verifiable truth, we need a consensus that it's obvious, not just one person who believes it can't be any other way. --173.228.85.35 05:32, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well in that case we should remove all the "little girl" information from the article, as we don't have "verifiable truth" that she's River. We should also remove the fact that she's the one that kills the Doctor, as again, we don't have "verifiable truth". Aliyoda 10:02, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether you're being serious, or just being argumentative and troublesome. I see that you went and removed the sentence about the Doctor reading his death date in the Teselecta records, but I'll assume that's an honest attempt to improve the article.
 * The way that sentence was written a few days ago, it said that when the Doctor looked at the Teselecta data records to see who she had killed, he saw the record of his own death date. That obviously implies that she killed him, but no more than the episode itself does; it's just reporting the facts of the episode. That's perfectly reasonable, and belongs in the article. On the other hand, someone seems to have edited it to say (in somewhat awkward wording) that the record said directly that she killed him, which obviously isn't true. It would have been better to fix the wording than to remove it, but let's see if anyone else has any input.
 * For her being the little girl, we have Moffat's statements in Confidential and at least two interviews, and I know that comments from the production staff are allowed as a "secondary source" when they don't contradict in-universe material. Maybe it needs sourcing; you'd have to look at the policies or ask someone who knows better. If you really think the article needs to avoid making a commitment on her being the little girl, and can think of a way to edit it so that all the information is there but it's not absolutely certain that this is the same character, go for it.
 * For her incarnation numbering, we should try to come to a consensus here. Obviously many people think River is her third incarnation, while many others think we don't know. We can't just put that out-of-universe information into the article (except as a boring and pointless "Behind the Scenes" point), but we can try to write and organize the article so it puts the evidence across as well as the episodes themselves do, so the implication is as strong here as it is on-screen (no stronger, but no weaker). I tried to do that, but I was also trying to avoid rewriting too much, and I think the wording came out pretty clumsy (fortunately, Boblipton fixed that problem), and the result is probably not perfect. If you've got any ideas for how to make it better, that would be great.
 * It also might be worth looking at the articles on the Master or some other unnumbered Time Lords. I think most people reading the page on the Master can tell that the little boy staring into the schism and the Deca student are incredibly likely to be both still the first Master, but that it's never been said on-screen or on-page, and that fits exactly with what we know. --173.228.85.35 16:53, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * The way that sentence was written a few days ago, it said that when the Doctor looked at the Teselecta data records to see who she had killed, he saw the record of his own death date. That obviously implies that she killed him, but no more than the episode itself does; it's just reporting the facts of the episode. That's perfectly reasonable, and belongs in the article. On the other hand, someone seems to have edited it to say (in somewhat awkward wording) that the record said directly that she killed him, which obviously isn't true. It would have been better to fix the wording than to remove it, but let's see if anyone else has any input.
 * For her being the little girl, we have Moffat's statements in Confidential and at least two interviews, and I know that comments from the production staff are allowed as a "secondary source" when they don't contradict in-universe material. Maybe it needs sourcing; you'd have to look at the policies or ask someone who knows better. If you really think the article needs to avoid making a commitment on her being the little girl, and can think of a way to edit it so that all the information is there but it's not absolutely certain that this is the same character, go for it.
 * For her incarnation numbering, we should try to come to a consensus here. Obviously many people think River is her third incarnation, while many others think we don't know. We can't just put that out-of-universe information into the article (except as a boring and pointless "Behind the Scenes" point), but we can try to write and organize the article so it puts the evidence across as well as the episodes themselves do, so the implication is as strong here as it is on-screen (no stronger, but no weaker). I tried to do that, but I was also trying to avoid rewriting too much, and I think the wording came out pretty clumsy (fortunately, Boblipton fixed that problem), and the result is probably not perfect. If you've got any ideas for how to make it better, that would be great.
 * It also might be worth looking at the articles on the Master or some other unnumbered Time Lords. I think most people reading the page on the Master can tell that the little boy staring into the schism and the Deca student are incredibly likely to be both still the first Master, but that it's never been said on-screen or on-page, and that fits exactly with what we know. --173.228.85.35 16:53, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * For her incarnation numbering, we should try to come to a consensus here. Obviously many people think River is her third incarnation, while many others think we don't know. We can't just put that out-of-universe information into the article (except as a boring and pointless "Behind the Scenes" point), but we can try to write and organize the article so it puts the evidence across as well as the episodes themselves do, so the implication is as strong here as it is on-screen (no stronger, but no weaker). I tried to do that, but I was also trying to avoid rewriting too much, and I think the wording came out pretty clumsy (fortunately, Boblipton fixed that problem), and the result is probably not perfect. If you've got any ideas for how to make it better, that would be great.
 * It also might be worth looking at the articles on the Master or some other unnumbered Time Lords. I think most people reading the page on the Master can tell that the little boy staring into the schism and the Deca student are incredibly likely to be both still the first Master, but that it's never been said on-screen or on-page, and that fits exactly with what we know. --173.228.85.35 16:53, September 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * It also might be worth looking at the articles on the Master or some other unnumbered Time Lords. I think most people reading the page on the Master can tell that the little boy staring into the schism and the Deca student are incredibly likely to be both still the first Master, but that it's never been said on-screen or on-page, and that fits exactly with what we know. --173.228.85.35 16:53, September 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * I wasn't meaning to be "argumentative and troublesome", sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to say that we have the same level of proof for the little girl being river and the fact that she killed the Doctor as we do for the numbering of her incarnations - implications and common sense (although I didn't know Steven Moffat had stated in confidential that the little girl was River, so I take that once back). Do you know what episode of confidential that was in? Because we probably should add that as a source if there's no direct in-universe confirmation.
 * Aliyoda 11:02, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that's mostly my fault; my initial impression was that you'd removed a perfectly good sentence just to make a point, and when I realized that what you'd actually removed was a sentence tha had been edited so it was no longer true, I should have removed that whole paragraph…
 * Anyway, I'm guessing it was the Confidential for Let's Kill Hitler, but I'll have to rewatch that (then, if it's not there, the previous episodes, and the various external Moffat interviews I've recorded locally, found on Combom, etc.) to make sure. I hope it's still recorded…
 * However, we also have a lot more in-universe evidence that the little girl was some incarnation of Melody Pond than we do that she was explicitly the first incarnation, or the one before Mels. It's mostly circumstantial evidence, but it's still a lot more than the fact that she regenerated in New York. For example:
 * However, we also have a lot more in-universe evidence that the little girl was some incarnation of Melody Pond than we do that she was explicitly the first incarnation, or the one before Mels. It's mostly circumstantial evidence, but it's still a lot more than the fact that she regenerated in New York. For example:
 * However, we also have a lot more in-universe evidence that the little girl was some incarnation of Melody Pond than we do that she was explicitly the first incarnation, or the one before Mels. It's mostly circumstantial evidence, but it's still a lot more than the fact that she regenerated in New York. For example:


 * She can regenerate. It was strongly hinted that Melody could regenerate in AGMGTW, and directly shown in LKH. While she could theoretically be Jenny, a future Doctor, the Master, a Time Lord who escaped the War by being outside the universe, a member of some as-yet-unknown species who can regenerate, or maybe even a Type 103 TARDIS, but most of these seem a lot more implausible than the fact that someone who was in New York in 1970 would be in New York again in 1991.
 * The narrative juxtaposition of the first TARDIS pregnancy scan of Amy implies that he thinks she might be Amy's daughter. (The details: About 43:20 into DotM, as the Doctor is pulling down the display screen so that he can see it but Amy can't, he says, "This little girl, it's all about her, who was she?" At 43:35, he looks up to read the scanner; at 43:45, we see him worried, and it's revealed that it's displaying Amy's inconclusive pregnancy scan.) It's possible that he's wrong about the connection and just gets lucky and finds out the right information anyway (similar things happened a few times in early EDA novels, and to some extent in the very next episode after this), but that would be a hell of a coincidence. It's also possible that the whole sequence is misleading, and his mention of the little girl was completely unrelated to his scanning Amy (they had just been talking about her thinking she was pregnant a bit earlier)—but if it's misleading, it's deliberately so.
 * She had a picture in her room of Amy holding a baby, presumably from A Good Man Goes to War, which implies that she is that baby. Maybe Madame Kovarian planted that picture on an unrelated little girl to make the Doctor and Amy later mistakenly think the little girl was Melody, or to make the little girl think Amy was her mother, or something like that, but otherwise, nobody in 1969 would have that picture.
 * Melody is clearly connected with the Silence, given Let's Kill Hitler, and the litle girl was clearly held by the Silence. Again, not proof (because Gardner is also clearly connected with the Silence in a similar way, and he's not Melody Pond), but more evidence.
 * The Teselecta records tell us that it was some incarnation of Melody in the spacesuit that killed the Doctor. That doesn't prove that nobody but incarnations of Melody ever wore that spacesuit. And it's not even certain that it's the same suit (hundreds of people have worn Apollo/Skylab spacesuits, including the Doctor himself in at least two novels).


 * Anyway, none of these are iron-clad proof, but the weight of the evidence is a lot stronger than just "Mels says she once regenerated in New York, and the little girl regenerated in New York".
 * If all of that doesn't add up to enough, then we're in trouble, because I have no idea how anyone could write a River Song article that includes all of the information on the little girl without saying that she was River, without some kind of horribly clumsy verbiage explaining why she's probably River and therefore being included in this article. --173.228.85.35 09:25, September 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I just found the Confidential and re-watched it, and it's not there, at least not in the discussion about the regeneration sequence, which is where I expected it to be. Time to start scanning televised interviews… Meanwhile, Moffat does establish quite clearly in that interview that Mels actually regenerates into Alex Kingston, not into River Song. :) --173.228.85.35 10:28, September 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I found one video interview and one printed interview where Moffat confirms that the little girl is River. Since it's easier to cite print: here. I'm not sure how to add that to the article, but I'll try; if I give up, hopefully someone else will use it. --173.228.85.35 10:38, September 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I found one video interview and one printed interview where Moffat confirms that the little girl is River. Since it's easier to cite print: here. I'm not sure how to add that to the article, but I'll try; if I give up, hopefully someone else will use it. --173.228.85.35 10:38, September 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I found one video interview and one printed interview where Moffat confirms that the little girl is River. Since it's easier to cite print: here. I'm not sure how to add that to the article, but I'll try; if I give up, hopefully someone else will use it. --173.228.85.35 10:38, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Accommodation of first regeneration
Please desist from removing the comment about it being unknown where or who she lived with when she was Mels. Wouldn't Amy and Rory find it a bit odd never meeting Mels' supposed parents. I understand that speculation about her living with adoptive parents is not allowed, however the readers have to know that we can see there is an irregularity, but we don't know the answer, however we are AWARE.

Thank you.

Please use a signature at the end of your posts. Not only does it let us know whom to mail infernal machines to, it sets off the end of the post nicely. As to Mels' parents.... what makes you think she has any. They don't have orphanages in England?Boblipton 00:59, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

Child of the TARDIS not an alias
The folks who put together those "also known as" lists in the infoboxes tend to take things a bit too literally. At no point in the episode is the name "Child of the TARDIS" ever applied to River. She describes herself as such. That's not a name. Please remove it as it looks silly, thanks. 70.64.177.79 19:53, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Also, Melody Williams isn't an alias either. Rory refers to her as that but Amy replies saying she's Melody Pond, as Melody Williams sounds like a geography teacher. And throughout her life she is constantly Melody Pond, hence River Song, as opposed to Bill Song or something. Aliyoda 22:01, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's ridiculously silly, but it's also consistent with most of the other "also called" lists on this wiki. Rory is also known as "The Pretty One", Donna is also known as "Supertemp"—basically, any descriptive phrase or one-time joking nickname ever used for any character is considered an alias. If you want to change that, I'd suggest getting some consensus over on the Panopticon to define what does and doesn't count as an alias and then, once a decision is reached, fix this article along with the rest of them. --173.228.85.35 09:39, September 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I did a bit of research, and actually, it's pretty much exclusively characters from the new series (and Torchwood) who list these ridiculous aliases; characters from the classic series (and novels, etc.) have perfectly reasonable lists (e.g., Sarah Jane's article lists actual aliases like "Sarah Bland", but not random things she's been called like "Old Girl" or "The Human Female").
 * Anyway, there's already a relatively recent Panopticon thread on this at Forum:Notable Aliases (which seems to have led to the infobox being changed to say "Also Called" insead of "Notable Aliases", but not to have led to an agreement on policy), so I reopened that thread instead of creating a new one. If you want to add comments on why River is not "also known as Child of the TARDIS", etc., that seems like the best place. --173.228.85.35 10:06, September 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyway, there's already a relatively recent Panopticon thread on this at Forum:Notable Aliases (which seems to have led to the infobox being changed to say "Also Called" insead of "Notable Aliases", but not to have led to an agreement on policy), so I reopened that thread instead of creating a new one. If you want to add comments on why River is not "also known as Child of the TARDIS", etc., that seems like the best place. --173.228.85.35 10:06, September 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyway, there's already a relatively recent Panopticon thread on this at Forum:Notable Aliases (which seems to have led to the infobox being changed to say "Also Called" insead of "Notable Aliases", but not to have led to an agreement on policy), so I reopened that thread instead of creating a new one. If you want to add comments on why River is not "also known as Child of the TARDIS", etc., that seems like the best place. --173.228.85.35 10:06, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Citing the Little Girl's identity as River
As described in at least two sections above ("Is River the Little Girl?" and "Speculation Removed"), there's good, but possibly not conclusive, on-screen evidence that the Little Girl is River Song. There is definitely conclusive behind-the-scenes evidence. Aliyoda suggested that we need to cite that, or it looks like we're stating something as a definite fact just because it's implied. That makes sense to me, so I hunted down a citation.

I found a few interviews with Moffat where he confirms their identity. I chose this one both because it's citable (it's printed, rather than video, and it's from a reasonably reliable source who isn't known to fabricate interviews), and because it contains a clear, impossible-to-misinterpret statement ("…we do already know that the little girl was River and that she can regenerate", in the answer to the next-to-last question on the page).

I'm not sure I got the format right, or that I put the reference in the right place, so I'd appreciate someone taking a look at it. --173.228.85.35 11:21, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Trimming the Fat
I have been working very hard at editing the River Song page in an effort to control its length. She's a wonderful character, beautifully written and played, which means there is a strong tendency for people to add in a lot of details about her that do not, in my opinion, belong on her page -- things that might well go onto a page about a one-shot character, but which would result in the already massive River Song article becoming unmanageably long.

As many of us are aware, there is a strong minority who have been calling for her to be split into three pages, one for each known incarnation. That would not be irrational, but I feel that for anyone seeking for information, it's more convenient to look through one page rather than three. This means, however, that we need to be pretty ruthless in trimming any fat and I have been working to knock out paragraphs, sentences, clauses, and even longer words -- the last is a natural tendency in my writing as I feel shorter words are more telling.

If you think I have cut something that really affects a reader's understanding of the character, please, by all means let us try to hold a rational conversation on the matter. We are all trying to make this wiki better. If you think I am taking the wrong course, please let me know. I have reached the point where each further trim forces me to examine much of the article lest I trim muscle and bone with the fat. It's an interesting exercise in editing for me, even though none of this is properly about me.

Perhaps this belongs on a blog entry, but I think this is a better place for it. Lots of people care about River Song. No one gives a hoot about me, nor should they, and this is far more likely to be read here than on any blog entry I might make.Boblipton 01:03, September 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * What you're really saying, if I understand it, is that it's time that we begin treating River like a "main character". We don't have a detailed summary of every episode, novel, etc. that Rose, Jack, or the Brig appeared in on their pages, because the whole point is to give as much understanding of the character as possible, as clearly as possible. And River ought to be handled the same way.--173.228.85.35 06:09, September 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, I hadn't thought about that. Isn't that a different matter entirely, a difference of quality rather than quantitity?  I'm certainly not opposed. Boblipton 11:51, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Intro
At the moment the intro reads: "Melody Pond, later River Song....." Someone has proposed that it be changed to "Melody Pond, later Mels and River Song....." Personally, I think that Mels is just a nickname and doesn't need to be in the opening paragraph of the page like that, but that's just my opinion, I thought it'd be good to get a consensus. What do people think? Aliyoda 21:01, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Quick answer: I agree with you, Aliyoda. Long answer: 'Mels' was never more than a nickname; her alias was 'Melody' at the time, since Amy named her daughter after her and while it would reasonably go under "also known as", it is highly unlikely to ever appear in more than two or three episodes. It would be nice to know what family name she used in Leadworth, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. Boblipton 21:16, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree. "Mels", even though it is a nickname, it is the name that she adopted for her incarnation. If you are going to dismiss "Mels" simply because it is a nickname, you might as well dismiss "the Doctor", "the Master", and so on because those are just mere nicknames. What's important isn't if it is a nickname, but the actual name that they choose to go by. "Mels" is the name that she chose to go by in her second incarnation. And besides, if you go by a nickname for ten years, is it really a nickname? -- Bold  Clone  22:07, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think leaving it as is is more in keeping with the Manual of Style (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Tardis:Manual_of_Style#Characters), as Melody Pond is her full name, and River Song is her commonly used name. Mels is just a nickname for Melody. The Seventh Doctor was called Professor for much of his regeneration, but that's not included on The Doctor's page in the way you're suggesting we include Mels here. Aliyoda 23:13, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wrong. The Manual of Style only addresses the title of the page, not our specific situation (should common nickname be on first sentence). If anything, we should put "Mels" up there, saying something like "Melody Pond, called "Mels" in her second incarnation and "River Song" in her third..." -- Bold  Clone  01:58, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Bold Clone, I understand you are passionate about this, but just as you complain about people removing your changes until a consensus is reached, you seem to see noting wrong in changing other people's deletions. We have a disagreement. I ask that you and Aliyoda stop this p***ing match, wait a couple of days and then, whatever the majority opinion is here, let it rule. I understand you want to have as much information as possible, but the issue is not sheer volume, but utility. We could steal the shooting script, run an index program and cross-reference every concept, individual, do a count of individual letters and pluck each hair from Alex Kingston's hair and determine its precise color value along every angstrom of length and it would be useless. Aliyoda, you too, please give it a rest. While I agree with you, waiting 48 hours will not make the sun go nova and if most people think that letting "Mels" remain is useful, there exists the possibility that you and I are wrong (me for the second time in 47 years). So, please, both of you, cool it.
 * Sheesh. Boblipton 02:27, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, sorry. I was under the impression that if there was a disagreement, stuff should be left "as is" unless a consensus is reached the other way. But if you think waiting a couple of days is the best course of action, I don't see a problem with that. Aliyoda 09:58, September 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course it is; you're always supposed to leave the page be. But I don't do that; that's just a bunch of bull. If we always had to do that with all of our edits, then we just have beauracrtic red-tape proccedures. We talk about whether or not to make changes. That's to passive, and will only make it less likely to motivate the issue. If you make the changes, then 1) people can see what the change would look like, and 2) it helps motivate discussion over the change. And personally, waiting a day or two will likely do nothing. The situation will most likely stay the same: at a crossroads in opinion. -- Bold  Clone  01:34, September 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course it is; you're always supposed to leave the page be. But I don't do that; that's just a bunch of bull. If we always had to do that with all of our edits, then we just have beauracrtic red-tape proccedures. We talk about whether or not to make changes. That's to passive, and will only make it less likely to motivate the issue. If you make the changes, then 1) people can see what the change would look like, and 2) it helps motivate discussion over the change. And personally, waiting a day or two will likely do nothing. The situation will most likely stay the same: at a crossroads in opinion. -- Bold  Clone  01:34, September 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ayuh, but once the issue of dispute about which reasonable people may disagree -- not that any reasonable person could possibly disagree with me -- it's time to freeze it -- as we have -- and take a poll, which we are doing. So let's give it another day, see what the majority of people who have an opinion they wish to express say, and set that in stone. Ok? Boblipton 01:51, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Bold Clone, you don't have to do that with all your edits, but when there is disagreement on it that is what you are supposed to do until a consencus is reached. We should just treat this the same way we treat any other nickname. Amy's page, for example, does not say "Amelia Pond, later Amy Pond," it says "Amelia "Amy" Jessica Pond..." Same goes for Jo's page. If the name Mels does need to stay in the opening paragraph then we should keep it as something like "Melody "Mels" Pond, later River Song..."Icecreamdif 19:01, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

Icecreamdif has a very nice compromise, I think. I'm going to switch my vote to Icecreamdif's side and will make the change this evening (New York time) unless there is a change in the polling. Boblipton 13:39, September 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think "Melody "Mels" Pond, later River Song..." covers all her used names in the most logical way possible.
 * Aliyoda 15:00, September 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose that that works. -- Bold  Clone  19:24, September 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose that that works. -- Bold  Clone  19:24, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Images
could we have some more images on this page by any chance --78.105.95.95 18:39, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

I think that a picture of Maya Glace-Green instead of the regeneration picture would be a better choice too.Boblipton 18:48, September 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * The only section that is really in need of additional images is the Impossible Astronaut/Big Bang bit.
 * and the Pandorica bit --78.105.95.95 20:33, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

River in AGMGTW
We don't know where and when River came from when she appeared at the End of AGMGTW, but what she wears is the same as she did in DotM, which makes it likely that she travelled to Demon's Run after that episode. Also, the scene with Rory at the beginning doesn't have to take place before the end (for River) - she already knew she would only be there at the "very end" and that the Doctor would find out who she was. So why exactly is all that at this point in the Biography section?  Nathanael1711 (Talk) 17:03, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

We don't know, but DWM, an official publication, does know. In the latest issue, a timeline for River Song is given. Her Stormcage Goes to War scenes take place right before Astronaut (and immediately after The Wedding of River Song), while her appearance at the end also takes place before Astronaut. Therefore, the page is correct in this regard. 17:15: Mon 9 Sep 2011

wrong place!
The picture of River in the Astronaut suit is in the wrong section! Could somebody please put it in the right place, thanks!Forgetful 10th doctor fan 22:22, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Major Revision of "Personality"
Because of the insights gained from The Wedding of River Song, I am considering rewriting the personality section of the River Song page. I intend to lead it off with "Between the natural Scots stubbornness she inherited from her mother and her training as a child to kill the Doctor, River's personality over her lifetime evinced itself as variations on a psychopathic fixation on the Doctor. Given the traumatic events of her final regeneration and the platicity of personality at those times, this fixation resublimated itself, at once murderous and loving." That's the general thrust, and I will try to make it a little clearer, but before I slap it on and rewrite, I wanted to give people some time to object. If I don't hear any major objections from midnight, Thursday Oct. 6, 2011 (New York Time), I'll start making the changes. In the meantime, if you wish to wrangle with me about the exact wording, I'd be pleased to hear it.Boblipton talk to me 19:11, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Having heard no objection, this morning I dood it. I am sure that there are many people who will object to one or more parts, particularly potentially racist remarks -- I spent a couple of days asking people whose opinion I respect whether I should use the word "Scotch" or "Scots" and my analysis of why "Mels" was Black may not be to everyone's taste. Nonetheless, I wrote it as one piece and if you have any objections, I ask that you raise them here and permit me to defend my choices instead of simply going in and making edits. Boblipton talk to me 13:11, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Mels Zucker.
Mels incarnation name: Mels Zucker

The Brilliant book 2012 gives Mels's surname as Mels Zucker. Is this an accpeted Source.

That's a good question. I often see it discussed in the Community section, but I have never seen it as a reference source while editing pages, so I think not. However, it strikes me as a good question to ask in the community section. By the way, please sign your contributions to the talk pages and, if you decide to pursue this, in the community section. Boblipton talk to me 16:15, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Right Sorry I forgot to sign the post. I'll sign this time User:Doctorpenguin 16:45, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

I have finally gotten a response to my query about using the Brilliant Book as a source. Policy here is that if it appears in a story and can be cited as coming from that story, then it's a valid source. Otherwise, it's not. Until i see a notice here citing that valid source, I will continue to chop away. Boblipton talk to me 03:52, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

If you unlock Melody Pond on the DWMI website, it also says Melody took the name Mels Zucker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomno (talk) 16:26, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Also Known As
I have just removed some of the more ridiculous joke names and descriptions from the "Also Known As" section of the infobox, for about the hundredth time, based on the discussion at forum:Notable Aliases. Please do not add them again, as it has been decided to remove these types of aliases from pages. If you disagree with this decision, then you can bring it up on the forum page.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:34, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

River at Trenzalore
Since for all we know Trenzalore is the only place where the Doctor can reveal he true name does this mean the River will be there when he does? Tripodssj6 talk to me 19:03, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

It's not the only place where he can reveal his name, it's just the only place where we know that he will. It is likely that River will be in the Trenzalore episode, but it is not definite and thus cannot be added to the article.Icecreamdif talk to me 20:56, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Time Lord/Lady
There is a lot of back-and-forth about the tag "Time Lord" vs "Time Lady. Time to discuss it, I think and poll the group mind. Unless the consensus is otherwise, I'm going to change it back to 'time lord'on the 30th and be aggressive about defending it.Boblipton talk to me 14:40, October 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Simple way to put it. Since Time Lady is a redirect to Time Lord, put Time Lord as the link then Time Lad as what the link says. For example. Time Lady which would give Time Lady. MM/ Want to talk? 14:51, October 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Since noone ever refers to her as Time Lady in an episode that I recall, and she is referred to as having "Time Lord" DNA in A Good Man Goes to War, I think we should stick with Time Lord. Mandalore74 talk to me 22:21, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * A Time Lady is a female Time Lord... MM/ Want to talk? 22:25, October 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * As MM (Mini-Mitch?), Mandalore and I agree and there are no nays, I'm switching it back and will revert any further changes. Boblipton talk to me 14:25, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Mini-mitch is right. She's a Time Lady and the article should refer to us as such.-- 15:05, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * However, she is not referred to as such (Time Lady) in the in-universe story, so if we want to be an accurate wiki about the in-story Whoniverse, we should follow the lead of the series and simply refer to her a human with Time Lord DNA. She's not even a Time Lord/Time Lady, so I'm not sure what the point is anyway...-- Bold  Clone  14:34, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Darillium Section
The Darillium section currently says that River ran into an earlier Doctor on the way to the Towers. However, in Last Night, the later Doctor deliberately doesn't confirm that this is the visit to the Towers. I propose that this statement be removed from that section. Perhaps an event could be added to the undated ones mentioning this with a note that it's unclear whether this is or is not the same trip to the Towers mentioned in Forest of the Dead. Drqapl talk to me 23:14, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, however, there is a sorrowful look on his face, and it is strongly suggested the answer is "yes." There is no indication that River ever took two visits to the towers, so any suggeststion otherwise is simply speculation. OS25 (talk to me.) 23:43, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

WAIT!!!!
Hold on, wait a minute! Aren;t we all forgetting something 'very, very impotant? In The Pandorica Opens (TV story), River is seen buying the vortex manipulator. Seeing where I'm going with this or not? Hello!!! If she bought it then, we should move that section to the earlier part of her biography. It's kinda obvious when you think about it. (173.167.179.77talk to me 23:49, January 25, 2012 (UTC))

After they climb out of the Byzantium, River tells the Doctor about the Pandorica opening. While it's true that River may be giving the Doctor foreknowledge of something she has learned inadvertantly or the universe has shifted majorly or she has a second vortex manipulator. Occam's razor says don't multiply entities needlessly, but we need to here. I'm going with a second manipulator or even a gltich when the Doctor restored the universe. After all, Mom remembers her being able to travel in time without the TARDIS. She got back to 102 AD Britain without it. Reality is what Mom remembers it being. Boblipton talk to me 00:08, January 26, 2012 (UTC)