Forum:The new transmats

Opening post
Hello everyone,

So, this discussion is continuing on from both:
 * Forum:Temporary forums/Updating the main page & theme
 * Talk:Doctor Who Wiki

However, those discussions have got quite knotty and difficult to follow, so I'll summarise things as best I can:


 * A redesign of the main page is being discussed. This includes a new version of the 'transmats' - if you somehow don't know already, the transmats are a special graphic that link to various topics (and to 'transmat pages', specifically). This is what the current transmat graphic looks like (it displays much larger on the front page, of course):


 * I, TheGreatGabester, have been developing a concept for a new version of the transmats. This is the current draft - it focuses on media, rather than in-universe elements:
 * I'm also putting together a 'transmat kit', containing the isolated aspects of the design, a scaling grid (for the hexagonical pattern), etc. This will allow the graphic to be adjusted with relative ease.


 * However, there is a lack of clear consensus for how this project can be progressed.
 * Some people have signalled their approval for my design, and want to see it implemented.
 * Some people like my design, but want to see some adjustments - it mostly seems like these people take issue with the transmats' content, rather than the overall design.
 * Some people want a completely different transmat design.
 * Some people are doubting the necessity of transmats, and even think they should be scrapped entirely.

I believe this issue should receive its own dedicated thread - on the previous discussions pertaining to the entire main page redesign, the conversation became somewhat scattershot and fragmented, and as I said, difficult to keep track of. So it's my opinion that we should address the main page redesign one element at a time, rather than trying to discuss every aspect all at once. If admins wish to overrule this, or change this thread to be about the entire main page (or delete it), that's fine. But, it's my view that this will be a more effective approach to take.

So yes, I'd appreciate if contributors to this thread made their current perspectives and thoughts as clear and easy to follow as possible. That way, new contributors can pitch in, without needing to wade through all the earlier discussions. Cheers TheGreatGabester ☎  14:17, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion
Okay, so I want to start off here by giving a bit of context as per my end. I have been one of the people recommending that we have the transmat image focus on in-universe topics. This is because I have my own test design for a landing concept. You can see my two variants here and here.

In my designs, this is what I suggested for the spinoffs:


 * Torchwood Spinoff.png  SJA spinoff.png   K9 spinoff.png   Class Spinoff.png





I believe this is more intuitive design than the big transmat wildly linking to every spin-off, both live action and EU. I also think it is the most healthy in terms of being evergreen, as it will not be a stress to update this whenever we officially know about future spin-offs. OS25🤙☎️ 19:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think I prefer OS25's design; it seems a lot more intuitive, and I think that it's actually much easier to see what things are what, as here, instead of linking by company, we are linking by series, which to me is much more intuitive. Aquanafrahudy ☎  19:29, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * The ability to easily swap out elements is appealing, for sure. It's a solid option. The main aspect I'm personally not so keen on, however, is the mismash of colour palettes between all these images. Some of these images individually contain a lot of strong colours, let alone when they're all put together. Functionally, this concept works well, but on an aesthetic level, I think there's more refinement that would have to be done. That's just me though, maybe other people aren't so bothered by the clashing colour palettes. TheGreatGabester ☎  22:11, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm simply biased, but I am very very tired of the whole "everything must be blue or gold" thing on the home page. So the color palate doesn't bother me. I also want to emphasize that I think a transmat directory for in-universe stuff is still needed. OS25🤙☎️ 22:27, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Doom's Day is not a spinoff in its own right, it just doesn't belong, even if we adopt OS25's approach.


 * But there's a more fundamental issue here, and it's that for newer users there's just too much being thrown at them. Imagine you're a new user coming to the franchise for the first time, you've already heard about the show, you know that it's been on since 2005, maybe you're vaguely aware that it had an older series back in 60s-80s, but you're already worried about 13 seasons of content to get through on the new show and you're not sure where to start. You come to our front page and you see that. A wave of colors wash over you and you see that there are four other TV shows?!!? And what's all that further down?! How much of this do you have to understand?


 * The legacy of the show is already intimidating to new viewers, and OS25's graphic only makes the problem worse. It is actively harmful to the onboarding experience of users most likely to harmed by hostile site design on the main page. Moreover, there's just no reason to do it. There was a previous thread that had consensus for the transmat design in the OP, and there's been no reason given to change it out. (I will note to the one concern about linking to company rather than series - the transmat graphic doesn't link to the normal pages that are in the regular namespace, it links to specially curated landing pads called transmats that explain the basics of the thing discussed, providing context for those interested.) Najawin ☎  22:52, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Once again, Najawin and I have one major disagreement about new editors coming to our website. Najawin believes that the majority of new users who will visit our site in the next few years will be former viewers who are now adults and are only coming to read content about the current run of episodes. People who stopped watching after Tennant or Smith and now only want to read about the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Doctors.


 * Whereas I believe, from solid experience, that users who come to our website are often brand new viewers who are furthermorenot terrified of the expanded universe. They are instead people who want to learn more about parts of the show and universe inaccessible to them. They want to know what the Sarah Jane Adventures is, they want to read more about the Third Doctor and Frobisher and the like.


 * Look at it like this. The ultimate peak in popularity for the franchise was during the Matt Smith era, probably around series 6. Imagine if you discovered the show during that era and you looked for a fan wiki... And the landing said something like


 * FACTS ABOUT THE DOCTOR. THE DOCTOR THINKS BOWTIES ARE COOL. THE DOCTOR WEARS FEZES AND OTHER HATS. THE DOCTOR SAYS JERONIMO. THESE ARE ALL THE FACTS ABOUT THE DOCTOR. THIS CONCLUDES THE TARDIS WIKI LANDING PAGE.


 * Doesn't that feel under-stimulating? And even if we do agree that new users are often returning from not watching the show for several years, who's to say they won't want to find out info about the eras they missed? We simply can not undermine our readers by presuming they don't have an interest in the obscure and fascinating. OS25🤙☎️ 23:08, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

But this isn't what I think? I think that there are going to be returning users, new users, and current fans all coming to the wiki! What I said was the following:
 * There are four groups to consider when talking about people who come to the wiki. Enfranchised users who are coming to the wiki already using it and comfortable with it. Users who haven't yet been to the wiki, but when they do won't be scared off by our basic design decisions/organizing principles in any way. Users who are committed to the show but have the potential to be put off by our basic design decisions/organizing principles and so are less likely to use the wiki. Users who are not committed to the show and have the potential to be put off of the show by our basic design decisions and organizing principles. (Theoretically there's a fifth, those who will come back to the wiki but not the show, and you can fine grain this to consider returning users rather than first time, but it's ultimately not a super important distinction.)

Users of the first type aren't people we should care about with our changes here - they're competent enough in navigating the wiki that our front page changes won't effect their usage. Users of the second type are, by definition, people we shouldn't care about either. This leaves us only with users of the third and fourth type. Your contention previously was that new users will be predominately of the third type, that is to say, people who were in the fandom but didn't necessarily use the wiki, and you provided some anecdotes in support of this. I took very strong objection to this.

Indeed, you seem to be suggesting something similar still, but making an additional conflation, which is that type four users are necessarily returning. I don't think this; I think returning viewers vs first time viewers is irrelevant to my analysis. I'm worried about the users that we are potentially scaring off by making hostile design decisions, be them returning or entirely brand new. (And, indeed, the hypothetical I constructed above assumes the person is a completely brand new viewer, so I'm not certain why you're suggesting I think most people will be returning. I think most people in November will be returning, but I don't think that necessarily holds for S14.)

This brings us to a question. Why do you think most users will be type 3? Easy answer, you're a heavily enfranchised fan, and so you're going to gravitate towards the spheres of fan discussion where people are more invested from the get go and are really interested in the topic. Nothing wrong with this, we all are. But we need to account for our own biases, we need to consider people who aren't yet in the fan communities you interact with or simply never will be. Are there people we can scare off from the show all together with our design choices? I think the answer is yes - even the BBC Wales series is intimidating to a new viewer that hasn't watched anything and wants to know where to start. And I think we need to be cognizant of that fact. Najawin ☎  23:40, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I like OS25's design, although I'd like to point out that on mobile it becomes a long line down, with each circle beneath the previous one. That probably needs fixing. Oh, and uh yeah people go to the wiki to find new stuff, not what they already know. Cousin Ettolrahc ☎  05:22, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * It's not that important that the feature works on mobile - it's pretty easy to set it up so it just doesn't show up.


 * I think Najawin is still massively overthinking the whole user base thing. Users are mostly driven by curiosity when they visit fan wikis.


 * So OS25, when you say there's still a need for a transmat directory, what would that look like?


 * Even if not blue and gold, some kind of colour scheme needs to be considered. This is why I like the original transmats: because they are a well-designed, aesthetically pleasing visual, which all feels 'of one piece'. And having it all be in a limited colour palette contributes to that. Basically, these images need to work as icons - the simpler, the better. In my view, the Big Finish and Iris Wildthyme images are just way too visually busy - too many visual elements, and too many colours. TheGreatGabester ☎  06:49, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Of course people coming to a wiki are here because of curiosity - to learn new things rather than what they already know. Nobody here is disputing this. The issue is rather what they're curious about, and if throwing them in the deep end might put them off of either the wiki or the franchise. (Or, alternatively, if not giving them large amounts of EU lore on the first page they see will put them off of the wiki or the franchise. - There will be sidebars that discuss more obscure EU stuff ostensibly anyhow, yes? The facts that OS25 is talking about. If we do these properly I think these concerns are just misplaced.) Najawin ☎  07:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I my self quite like the bright colours I found the gold and blue seemed rather bland as the gold to me just comes of a rather dull beige. Not very interesting and I am lightly to miss it. So I support the bright colours and simple design the phrasing makes it obvious that one does not need to worry about the EU. And if I may say how I discovered the wiki. It goes a little like this I was no long a Doctor Who super fan. Once I had been I still loved the show but when you have rewatched the show so many times it gets a bit Repetitive. It was late 2019 Covid was just coming up. I has just finished watching all of Star Trek what was I to do with my spare time. So I want to read a new book and watch some new shows. So I type in to Google the 8th Doctor. I head to the Eighth Doctor page and promptly discover Faction Paradox. At this point I finish watching classic who with Britbox. So I need a new book to read I buy myself a copy of “of the City of the Saved…” and then “Alien Bodies” I read the and fall in love with them thanks to that help I start using the wiki regally and buy myself more books. More audios. Then I start on the discussion pages talking about My reinvigorated love for Doctor Who. I also grab myself a cheap copy of K9 and fall in love with that. Finally I start editing pages and talking on the temporary forums. I am not saying this is universal but I am sure quite a lot of people will come here only once they have watched a fair bit of the show and want more. A person think about getting into Doctor Who won’t type in “Doctor Who wiki” they will type in something like “where to start getting into Doctor Who” which will take them to and entirely different place. So the fact is people looking ti get into Doctor Who won’t immediately come here will they? We will not be their first stop. We are the gateway into the beyond not the gateway into the nearby. Anastasia Cousins ☎  10:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, yes, but when I was looking into Doctor Who, I went and read the Wikipedia page. Other people might do that with fandom. But I certainly see what you mean about the gateway to the beyond, rather than the entry point. Aquanafrahudy ☎  10:49, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I like (and prefer) OS25's design. The different clashes of colour don't bother me, although I can agree it visually looks quite busy. Maybe it can be simplified: use the Torchwood logo instead of the photo of the trio; replace Sarah/Clyde/Luke with the SJA logo; for the sake of consistency therefore replace K9 with that series logo; same for Class.

I like the whole 'roundel' vibe it has, and it just feels neat to me and way less fussy than a fancy graphic. Looking at it, you can immediately see each individual show/series/part of the Whoniverse, and click through. Maybe if people are bothered by colour clashes, is it possible to have them all 'washed out' with a colour but then they appear full colour when you hover over them with a mouse/click on them? Or, as with my logo suggestion, just find different images that better compliment each other when lined up? Logos alone could be boring, but they'd do the job. Or else an alternative suggestion is to find photos akin to the one used for "Doom's Day" - plainish background, one person/object as the focus of the image. Simple, effective, recognisable. Fractal Doctor ☎  16:27, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think they'll type in something like "where to start getting into Doctor Who", rather, the first search will be something like "Doctor Who". We're on the first page of Google results. We're an incredibly prominent site on all things Doctor Who related and this is the express intent of FANDOM. There will still be links to the EU in the transmat graphic. There will still be a sidebar with randomized tidbits. There will even be, if the proposal in the other thread succeeds, guides on how to venture into the various areas of the EU. All I'm suggesting is that the initial site design be less overwhelming for users who might come here without that context and might be put off by it. Focusing on the wiki/mainpage being a "gateway for the beyond", or a place people go to learn about things they don't know - nobody has argued against these things. Not a one. All that has been suggested is that the visual design on our main page do its best to not marginalize and scare off any type of user coming to this site. Najawin ☎  16:33, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * when I Google Doctor Who the first result if the Wikipedia page not this wiki. If I was new I would go there. Between that and this is a few news articles. If I am new and think about just getting into it I would go with Wikipedia. Not a place called TARDIS Data core (which is on the second page of safari not the first yes it is on the first of Google. But there are other widely used search engines such as Firefox) this wiki is cool. It is amazing. It is useful. But it also sometimes (I think) likes to think it is more important than it really is. Don’t get me wrong I love this place. But in the end it is just a website and whilst we want to make it the best website of all time we will not succeed as there is no best website. We can improve. But in the end we are still a website. And Doctor Who is just a Franchise. If someone wants to get in to a new show they will either Google how to get in or the name. If they Google how to get in they will be taken to somewhere like quora (or whatever it is called) if they search the name they will go to Wikipedia and find out that is basically restarts in 2005 and jump on at that point. They won’t go to a website they know nothing about. Like why would you go a website you have not heard of first instead of Wikipedia if you are only vaguely interested in starting watching it. I know I would not.I will only use a shows dedicated wiki once I have got really into it and want to do more in depth research. If I am only going to read about the show then I would use Wikipedia. This like said is not a place for introductions to the DWU it is an entrance way in to that which is beyond the show. The behind the scenes, the in-depth lore and links between Stories. And yes the EU. If this place was made to welcome new people to the franchise we would cover the eu less than we do now. Anastasia Cousins ☎  17:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

My main opinion is above but I wanted to add: I hope this doesn't just become a circular discussion about hypotheticals and what fans/newbies may or may not 'see'. Because the truth is, everyone is different. Everyone researching the show is different, every new fan looking for info is different. Surely that topic is just a non-starter cos you can debate the ins and outs forever? Anyway, I'll dip, just my two cents. I hope you guys find a resolution, and I hope the focus about how a portal/menu can be displayed is found rather than just circular debates. (Apologies if this sounds rude; not at all intentional, just an observation.) Fractal Doctor ☎  17:08, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I mean, part of the issue with going to wikipedia is that they necessarily have limited info about a show, I tend to hit wikipedia and then the franchise's wiki for whatever I'm looking at. (Also, it absolutely is first page, did you use a private window? It + Wikipedia + Doctorwhotv + Imdb are the only non social media, non BBC sites on the front page, iirc.)


 * Can we please stop talking about the site as a whole? It has never once been something under discussion. I've never suggested that we try to make the site as a whole more welcoming for new users by toning it down. I know people who have said that. I think the proposals that try to do this are unworkable from an administrative standpoint and would require years of work from all of our editors to bring the site in line with.


 * The only thing under contention is whether the main page should have accessible design for new users that might be put off or whether it should display all facets of the EU like OS25 is proposing. And let us note - I still want the main page to discuss the EU! I just want it to be more understated and less garish, as TGG's transmat graphic is, as well as sidebar modules. Nobody has ever suggested that the main page should only cater to things people already know about or that the site as a whole should be focused on the show and made less EU friendly. This has not happened. I do not believe this, and, indeed, I reject this view in the strongest terms. I merely think that this one, singular page, should be made as accessible as possible. Najawin ☎  17:48, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Fractal Doctor, I’m a bit sick to death of the circular discussion. But I’ll offer my perspective on it (again), regardless. In my view, the top of the page should probably contain the most ‘accessible’, current-DW focused stuff. But, the further you scroll down, the more references to obscure stuff you’ll find. I have quibbles with OS25’s concept, but I like that it has that dynamic, almost like those ‘iceberg’ videos you see - more well-known stuff at the top, before becoming slightly less accessible the ‘deeper’ you go down. I really think that could work. We don’t have to fall into false dichotomy-syndrome, where it’s either ‘accessible’ or ‘non-accessible’.

Having said that, I will say that this is basically what I was trying to achieve with my transmat design, just from a different angle. Making it clear how everything branches from the main show, kind of like a mind map. It makes sense to highlight what’s most current, in some way. Either by frontloading stuff at the top of the page, or by having a big central ‘DW’ transmat from which everything branches, etc. That’s all well and good, but there should be a bit of space for other stuff, and it needn’t be quarantined to the sidebar, in my view. TheGreatGabester ☎  18:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * for me on safari it is on the second page I can show a screen shot if you like. And whilst you make valid points I disagree with it for reason I have outlined above. I believe the Iceberg approach would be a nice compromise between our two conflicting views we have the main show at the top (possibly split in to classic and modern?) bellow it we have tv spin offs (including K9 and Company and K9) under that we have the more obscure parts of the EU but ones which still have the Doctor Who name attached and bellow that we have the PROBE and Faction Paradox section with at the bottom of the rabbit hole. With a clear distinction between each section. Like the “down the rabbit hole Alice?” Bit which I myself personally loved (I do have a soft spot for the book). So that is my proposed compromise we make it clear that each section is not required for the current show before we move on the more complex parts. And when we get the the three times removed section of City of Saved and Cwej: the Series we thus place them further down. Like the iceberg. We must however also make clear that whilst shown below we do not see them as less than the current show just that the current show can be enjoyed with out them. It is purely to outline how closely related they are to the current show not there importance. And I think someone said it is not important how it looks on mobile I disagree I myself often use a tablet which uses a similar display to a mobile I use because I find it is easy to use than a computer the main page I find however is almost illegible with text boxes over lapping and obscuring the main text leaving the main page a bit of mess. Thus we must make sure the transmats work on mobile as well. By excluding mobile is far worse than excluding the EU or new fans as most people (I think?) use mobile to search for things and are less likely to use their computers. Anastasia Cousins ☎  19:29, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I would like to briefly mention that the main page doesn't really display on the mobile skin. Something a lot less customisable is used instead. Therefore, ensuring that it looks good there is less of a priority. Bongo50   ☎  19:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree with Anastasia Cousins' proposal whereby we have an iceberg effect, where the further down you go, the obscurer you get. Well, not obscurer, but further away from mainstream DW, if you see what I mean. Start with the main TV series, then EU, then TV spin-offs, then EU spin-offs, then spin-offs of those EU spin-offs, if you see what I mean. Although EU DW can be provided by sidebars, so maybe not that. Aquanafrahudy ☎  19:56, 25 May 2023 (UTC)