Forum:Metaltron reality

Opening post
Not a lot to say here, just a request that User:MrThermomanPreacher/Sandbox/Metaltron timeline be moved into the main namespace. Feel free to remove some of the headcanony palimpsest universe stuff if deemed necessary. MrThermomanPreacher ☎  11:35, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion
Could you remove some of the "headcanony palimpsest universe stuff" yourself, and then re-present the sandbox to this thread? Once we've established there's no headcanon (intentionally) there, I've no particular issue with this. Although, also, with those bits removed, I don't really see why you wouldn't be able to do the move yourself? Cousin Ettolrahc ☎  12:14, 5 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not convinced. Unless specific valid sources depict them as "universes" in their own right, I don't think we should create pages for every last state of the palimpsest. In theory the palimpsest-universe way of looking at the concept of time being rewritten means that there's a "Universe where little Amelia dropped her ice-cream" that gets overwritten with a "Universe where an adult Amy bought little Amelia a new one" as per Night and the Doctor, but that's just not how the story itself thinks about this. We can't start creating a retroactive palimpsest-universe page for every version of the future that gets overwritten by later TV continuity. And I just don't think any of the quotes provided at your sandbox are framing the Metaltron's state of reality in terms of being a distinct universe from what replaced it. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 12:57, 5 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I like reality / timeline pages, and I like this page, but the palimpest framing confuses me as well. In particular, I don't think there's a clear implication that Dalek was actually overwritten by the later stories, just that the Metaltron and the Ninth Doctor were isolated and mistaken. Maybe some of the page's contents would be better housed on a "Metaltron incident" page similar to Operation Mannequin etc. – n8 (☎) 17:50, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Well we have a page on the incident already, at (or at least should be at) Van Statten Incident. 17:54, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @Nate, the BTS section of Van Statten Incident does claim that The Time Traveller's Almanac (which is a valid source these days) makes explicit the idea that Doomsday and such hadn't metatemporally happened yet, and this was why Van Statten didn't know about the Daleks. Which is only logical in the first place, of course, though I agree we shouldn't go too far in assuming it if we didn't have such a source. But just because a source confirms that time was rewritten does not, IMO, justify the creation of a page about the state of reality pre-rewrite — that way, as I said, lies "reality where Amy was bought a new ice cream". Only if the source actually frames things as a palimpsest-universe or the like, should a page be created. So, could we have a straight quote from the Almanac to see how it phrases things? Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 00:04, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

"At this point in their timelines, the Doctor and this Dalek seemed to be the only survivors of the Last Great Time War — the last of their races. The Cult of Skaro were still in their sphere in the Void and had yet to emerge in the Torchwood Institute and precipitate the Battle of Canary Wharf in 2007. The Empire State Building had been constructed without their interference, and the Earth had never been transported across the universe to the Medusa Cascade. Like Henry Van Statten, most of the human race had no idea what a Dalek was. With the death of the last Dalek, the Doctor was the unwilling victor of the Time War. Or so he thought..."

- The Time Traveller's Almanac, Chapter 3: "Everything Changes"; Page 149


 * Here you go! 01:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Phrasing to me suggests that the relevant slice of the 3+1-manifold has changed due to temporal interference, (perhaps quite a large slice!) but not that the entire universe was wiped away and rewritten. (/grumbles about the metaphysics of the DWU making very little sense and someone needing to clean it up/) Najawin ☎  06:13, 17 August 2023 (UTC)