Talk:Twelfth Doctor

Preparations
Does anyone else feel the Preparations section is a little too meta? Apparatjik ☎  04:18, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

I really feel like this section should go. King of Dunkshire ☎  20:55, October 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * I would say that all "foreshadowing" and "preparations" sections need to go. They're very out of place, and are closer to 'Legacy' sections then 'biography' sections. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 02:21, October 23, 2015 (UTC)

New Image
Just recently saw Kill The Moon, and I saw this particular image (on right). I've read the image policy and I'm pretty sure the image fits that.

And, to me, it looks like a better one! Anyone else got any thoughts? Guyus24 (talk) 09:42, September 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's kinda awkward.... OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 13:30, September 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, the cropping is exactly what we want for infoboxes. However, the image itself is a bit dark. Infobox images have to be visible by viewers using any kind of device, including small cell phone screens. Shambala108 ☎  14:37, September 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * I kinda like it. The darker image tone fits his darker demeanour.BananaClownMan ☎  14:42, September 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * Do you think playing with the contrast would fix it? I've got software that can do that. Guyus24 (talk) 07:13, September 9, 2015 (UTC)

How's this picture for an alternative? Taken from The Woman Who Lived. --TARDIS2468 ☎  23:15, October 25, 2015 (UTC)


 * That's too dark for an infobox image.  P&amp;P  talk   contribs  23:21, October 25, 2015 (UTC)




 * How about this one?BananaClownMan ☎  19:25, December 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * It certainly looks adequate but it's a tad wide and dark on one side. Perhaps if there was one in Under the Lake as that had quite a few bright areas? Snivystorm ☎  20:25, December 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * That last one isn't tightly cropped enough. See T:GTI. On the first proposed picture, I concur with Shambala—nice cropping according to T:GTI, but far too dark to be used. 21:26, December 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * What about this pic ? he basically looks like that currently (season 9, christmas, 10) the currently pic is from season 8
 * and he just changed so much because of his hair, i find it logically

Abmwm330 ☎  12:21, August 23, 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, first of all, we don't really care how recent an image is; it just has to conform to our guidelines.
 * Second, your image is not cropped closely enough. Yes, I know the current image is also not cropped enough, but at this point we need to replace it with one that fits our guidelines, not another one that doesn't. Please read through Tardis:Guide to images and maybe you can crop your image to the proper degree and bring it back here for consideration. Also, please see Tardis:Image use policy for how to properly name image files. Thanks! Shambala108 ☎  14:15, August 23, 2016 (UTC)

What about this one? The doctor is the main focus and his whole head is seen Abmwm330 ☎  16:17, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

Ghost
On the basis that the other people turned into ghosts in TV: Under the Lake says Human/Tivolian and Ghost I have put this on the Twelfth Doctor's infobox as well.--90.221.128.67talk to me 10:08, October 10, 2015 (UTC)

Hell Bent punch
Am I right in saying this is first time the Doctor has ever on screen assaulted anyone? I know the 9th Doctor certisnky got in to s few fights but they were more on self defence. This must be the first time he's ever attacked anyone physically, in new who anyway? Snivystorm ☎  20:51, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

Voord Victorious
This section effectively re tells the exact same information as above but from the alternate Doctor's viewpoint especially in the second paragraph. Is it not better for the Alternate 12th Doctor to have his own page, or at least a section that doesn't feel like it's trying to both telling a story and fil a biography? Snivystorm ☎  21:47, December 17, 2015 (UTC)

Love and the Doctor
I know full well that I'm opening up a pandora's box of debate here, but if we're going to talk about love with regards to River Song, that comes off as very "River shippish" and unbalanced as there is little discussion regarding the Doctor's feelings towards Clara which are unambiguous, particularly in the Face the Raven, Heaven Sent and Hell Bent. I'm trying to figure a way to word this that doesn't go into speculation, though I contest speculation regarding River is already present in this article. 68.146.52.234talk to me 19:30, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

The Doctor speaking to the dial in Heaven Sent
I do not understand the rationale of adding and readding the part of this section beginning with "the Doctor, knowing the Time Lords could save Clara..." based on the facts in Heaven Sent and Hell Bent:


 * With the Veil collapsing in on itself, the Doctor arrived on Gallifrey and, after telling a nearby boy to inform "someone important" in the Capitol of his arrival, (TV: Heaven Sent) the Doctor, knowing the Time Lords could save Clara, (TV: Hell Bent) addressed the confession dial, saying to whomever was listening that he was the Hybrid, (TV: Heaven Sent) so he would have something to bargain with them. (TV: Hell Bent)

1. "The Hybrid... is me" at the end of Heaven Sent, at least from the Doctor's perspective, seems to be referring to Me, or Ashildr, and 2. it seems to me that no-one actually was listening to him at that climax considering various scenes in Hell Bent regarding the Doctor's knowledge of the Hybrid (he purports to know what the Hybrid is, but he reveals that without saying before breaking through the azbantium wall and leaving the dial. I struggle to understand the exact importance of the cliffhanger or who, if anyone, could have heard it, given Hell Bent's dialogue.)


 * Rassilon: We needed to know. You have information about the Hybrid, a danger to all of us. If you'd told us what you knew, you could have walked out of there.

and


 * Twelfth Doctor: If you wanted to know about the Hybrid, why didn't you just ask me?
 * The General: If the Hybrid is a threat to the people of this world, why don't you just tell us?
 * Twelfth Doctor: What do you know already?
 * The General: The Hybrid is a legendary--
 * Twelfth Doctor: No.
 * The General: The Hybrid is a creature, thought to be crossbred from two warrior races.
 * Twelfth Doctor: Which races?
 * The General: The Daleks and the Time Lords, it is supposed.
 * Twelfth Doctor: Oh, must be well hard, then.
 * The General: Unstoppable, according to the stories.
 * Twelfth Doctor: If they're just stories, why are you so worried?
 * The General: Some Matrix prophecies suggest--
 * Twelfth Doctor: No.
 * The General: Many prophecies suggest--
 * Twelfth Doctor: No.
 * The General: All Matrix prophecies concur that this creature will one day stand in the ruins of Gallifrey. It will unravel the Web of Time, and destroy a billion billion hearts to heal its own.
 * Twelfth Doctor: What colour is it?
 * The General: I don't know.
 * Twelfth Doctor: These prophecies, they never tell you anything useful, do they?

and


 * Clara: OK, uhh, hang on. Wait, what? Did I miss something?
 * Twelfth Doctor: Well, we're several billion years in the future and the universe is pretty much over, so, yeah, quite a lot.
 * The General: Young lady. Miss Oswald. I'm afraid we only have a very few minutes with you.
 * Clara: Who's he?
 * The General: According to the Doctor, you can tell us something about the creature known as the Hybrid.
 * The General: Doctor, we have to explain.
 * Clara: Doctor, what is going on?
 * The General: Although you are currently conscious and aware, in fact, you died billions of years ago.
 * Clara: Doctor.
 * The General: We have extracted you at the very end of your time stream to request your help. Once we're finished here, you will be returned to your final moments. Your death is an established historical event and cannot be altered. I'm sorry.
 * The General: We have extracted you at the very end of your time stream to request your help. Once we're finished here, you will be returned to your final moments. Your death is an established historical event and cannot be altered. I'm sorry.

and


 * Ashildr: You remember now, though, don't you? Tell me, Doctor. Who is the Hybrid? Who threatens all of time and space?
 * Twelfth Doctor: Oh, but that's easy. That's very, very easy. The Hybrid is you.

So, I'm afraid I can't see in any way how either the Doctor saying the Hybrid was him, or him merely claiming it, was what caused the bargaining and escape from Gallifrey.

User:BananaClownMan mentions in an edit reason that the Doctor mentions Heaven Sent's cliffhanger to Clara in the Cloisters, but that's not true at all, unless it's referring to the diamond wall shortly before:


 * Clara: How long has it been for you since you last saw me?
 * Twelfth Doctor: Oh, I'm not sure.
 * Clara: How long?
 * Twelfth Doctor: I was stuck in a place. They--
 * Clara: They? What? Who? Who are we talking about?
 * Twelfth Doctor: They wanted something from me. Information. It really doesn't matter.
 * The General: Open up. We're going in. We'll stick to the perimeter, no more than three paces from the lift. Do not enter the Cloisters.
 * Twelfth Doctor: Twenty feet of pure diamond. Harder than diamond. But you'll break through anything, given time.
 * Clara: How much time?
 * The General: Miss Oswald.
 * Clara: Stay back.
 * The General: I'm sorry, but we have to find a way to extract you--
 * Clara: I said stay back! The Hybrid, what is it? What's so important you would fight so long?
 * Twelfth Doctor: It doesn't matter what the Hybrid is. It only matters that I convinced them that I knew. Otherwise, they'd have kicked me out, and I'd have nothing left to bargain with.
 * Clara: What were you bargaining for?
 * Twelfth Doctor: What do you think? You. I had to find a way to save you. I knew it had to be the Time Lords. They cost you your life on Trap Street, Clara, and I was gonna make them bring you back. I just had to hang on in there for a bit.
 * Clara: How long?
 * Twelfth Doctor: It was fine.
 * Clara: One question, and you will answer. How long was the Doctor trapped inside the confession dial?
 * Ohila: We think four and a half billion years.
 * The General: He could have left any time he wanted. He just had to say what he knew. The dial would have released him.
 * The General: He could have left any time he wanted. He just had to say what he knew. The dial would have released him.

And again, combined with stuff like the General not knowing the Hybrid's colour and so forth, the Doctor says, prior to leaving the dial in Heaven Sent, he knows what the Hybrid is. BananaClownMan gives the edit reason: "The hanging on for a bit refers to him waiting in the barn. He tells the dial he is the Hybrid, and themn waits for the Time Lords to come for him so he can turn the tables and save Clara," even though right after saying that he was having to hang on in there to bargain with them, Clara asks Ohila "How long was the Doctor trapped inside the confession dial?" Also, in Heaven Sent, he tells a boy to go to the city and tell "somebody important" he's back, and the "you could have walked out of there", "they'd have kicked me out" and "he could have left any time he wanted" in Hell Bent is also clearly referring to the four and a half billion years in the dial, and not the waiting in the barn. I'm sorry, but there's so many caveats to assume the Time Lords could still hear him outside the confession dial saying "the Hybrid... is me", which again, more likely means Ashildr, that they probably didn't. -- Tybort (talk page) 02:36, April 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * All this is quite persuading, if not for the following line for the Heaven Sent cliffhanger you haven't addressed; "You can probably still hear me, so just between ourselves, you've got the prophecy wrong." Your argument stems from the idea the Time Lords were still listening after he escaped, the Doctor himself states there is a possibility they can't.BananaClownMan ☎  12:41, April 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * My last point on this is literally "they probably didn't", so I'm not sure what's being added here. -- Tybort (talk page) 22:01, April 16, 2016 (UTC)


 * Look, User:Tybort, I'm going to level with you here; I have no love for the Heaven Sent cliffhanger, or Hell Bent either, and I have a lot on my plate with University finals in the near future. So, you win, I guess. I will no longer edit that part of the timeline, or argue with you about it.BananaClownMan ☎  17:21, April 29, 2016 (UTC)

Nail biting
The article mentions that the Doctor has a habit of tapping his fingers to his teeth, but if you look at a couple of moments, such as just before he shouts "The universe is over" in Hell Bent it's pretty obvious he's biting his nails. Maybe this should be added as another character trait? 68.146.233.86talk to me 16:24, June 5, 2016 (UTC)


 * If he does it somewhat regularly, it could be added. If it's just one story, it could be a one-time thing and is not worth adding as a character trait. Shambala108 ☎  21:52, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

Protection
We have an unregistered user who keeps messing with this page and removing River as this Doctor's wife. This page needs to be protected to prevent this.--WarGrowlmon18 ☎  01:35, June 9, 2016 (UTC)

Said user just erased the first message under this heading before I reverted it.--WarGrowlmon18 ☎  18:38, June 9, 2016 (UTC)

5.3 Factual correction
If you're going to list Twelve has a spouse then you need to list all his wives from his very first one as First Doctor. It was Eleven that married River, not Twelve. Twelve has not married anyone in this incarnation.


 * River is referred to as his wife in Husbands of River Song. And sign your posts.--WarGrowlmon18 ☎  19:05, June 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with WarGrowl. The episode clearly indicates that the Doctor was still married to River because River - in her time line - had not yet died. The River the Eleventh Doctor met in "The Name of the Doctor" is referred to as his ex-wife because that River was dead. And if one subscribes to the Twelve/Clara romantic relationship idea (which has been endorsed in multiple televised and cinema-screened interviews by Jenna Coleman, Peter Capaldi and Steven Moffat), keep in mind that THORS clearly indicates that River married several people while still married to the Doctor. So it all evens out (and there's no indication of Clara and the Doctor ever having wed, anyway). So it is perfectly correct to say the Twelfth Doctor was still married. 23skidoo ☎  14:34, August 31, 2016 (UTC)

Garfield
There's a reference to the Twelfth Doctor liking Garfield books. We need a source for this as there's no reference to Garfield in any televised episode and this wiki's article on Garfield makes no mention of any Twelfth Doctor stories (i.e. novels, audios) referencing the books. We know he liked Where's Wally which I added. 23skidoo ☎  14:34, August 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * He's fondness for Garfield is mentioned in The Blood Cell, which was already sourced with his liking of books.BananaClownMan ☎  15:16, August 31, 2016 (UTC)

5.3 Factual correction
The Doctor is considered a polygamist since he has several wives.

New image (post Series 10)
I'm here to make an image proposition, is this one any better? HolmestoHomes ☎  19:25, January 15, 2017 (UTC)

New image I think this picture totally captures the doctors attitude and dark demeanor I believe this follows the image policy and looks amazing.


 * Hmm, perhaps, but the gaping mouth is somewhat off putting and it lacks a neutral expression. Plus, this Doctor isn't always 'dark'. The other one is also too bright so detracts from the focus on the Doctor. Snivystorm ☎  11:34, May 14, 2017 (UTC)


 * There was a shot in yesterday's episode that struck me as quite nice. Perhaps a little too dark, but I'll look for it. OS25 (Talk) 18:33, May 14, 2017 (UTC)

Yea, I think the images I pulled are a bit too dark. On that note, I've come to the conclusion that we should hold off this discussion entirely until Series 10 is completed, and potentially until after the Christmas special. OS25 (Talk) 18:58, May 14, 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Snivystorm ☎  19:03, May 14, 2017 (UTC)

Alright, since the series is over, I'm going to start a gallery below and I suggest anyone who wants to pitch a new infobox image put it in said gallery. I would suggest putting off arguing over which one is the "best" until we have ten or so. OS25 (Talk) 23:24, July 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I went ahead and added the current image so the candidates know what they are up against. Snivystorm ☎  23:52, July 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * Added a few more images (#7, #8 and #9). I realise that number 9 may be a bit controversial, but when deciding for an image for the Tenth Doctor it was decided that the "brainy specs" were a key part of his Doctor. Here, I feel that the sonic sunglasses have been a key element of the Twelfth Doctor era, so I added the option. Currently, I would say #2 and #8 are my favourites. Let's keep them coming. 66 Seconds ☎  02:02, July 3, 2017 (UTC)


 * Just adding the Tardis:Guide to images to help with out guidelines. Snivystorm ☎  08:18, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

Since we have past #10, I'm going to give my opinions so far. For me, options #10, 3 and 8 are my top three; the rest are too dark and closeup for my liking. Option #6 I'm afraid isn't the TV Doctor, so not the most accurate portrayal to recognise him. #4 is used for the Shadow World Doctor, so it is already taken. I get what you're saying about #9 but the fact that it blocks his eyes (which we see more of than the device) is just too distracting and distracts too much from the image for me. #3 is probably the only one that really rivals the current image for me, looking the most like it; if only his mouth was shut. Overall, it's #3 for me so far if we end up changing it. Snivystorm ☎  15:07, July 3, 2017 (UTC)


 * I get what you're saying about them being too close up. I'll recrop 7, 8 and 11 and zoom them out a little. I also agree that 6 and 4 are my least favourites for the same reasons. 66 Seconds ☎  16:46, July 3, 2017 (UTC)


 * Alrighty. We'll reconsider those images once adjusted. I have also added #12, which I think feel is on par with #3: it faces the article, is bright and focuses well enough on the Doctor without being overt and the eyes are a tad clearer too. Snivystorm ☎  17:25, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

Okay. I played around with the cropping on images 7, 8, 10 and 11. I know you originally said you liked 10, so if you preferred the other version please feel free to revert it to the former image. I'm also adding another image. 66 Seconds ☎  22:50, July 3, 2017 (UTC)


 * I wanted to quickly clarify that #6 was once a joke image which simply read "That's all I have" as the description (this was before more people started adding them). Someone evidently added the description "#6" while adding more images. It is by no means a real option. OS25 (Talk) 22:53, July 3, 2017 (UTC)


 * Anyways, I'm currently thinking that #12 is the best in terms of lighting and cropping. A cropped it a TAB bit more to really make it fit the ideal limitations.


 * Images 4 (which is, as pointed out, an imitation Doctor anyways) and 9 are right-out for being too dark. I actually kinda like how 8 sits more than any of the other images, but that slight shadow on the Doctor's cheek makes it hard to pick. What we need is something as close as 2, bright as 12, and in-character as 11. OS25 (Talk) 23:00, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

Based on Tardis:Guide to images, #2 is cropped the way we prefer for infobox images of characters (see especially Fifth Doctor, Ace and Ian Chesterton for comparison). Some of the others (#3, 8, 10, 12) are ok, but are not quite as closely cropped as we would like. #4 and 5 are a bit too dark for viewing on mobile devices. As for #9, I get the point comparing it to Ten's picture, but if we can't see the Doctor's eyes, I don't think this one is a good one. Shambala108 ☎  23:18, July 3, 2017 (UTC)


 * Given the adjustments, I now find #12 and 8 as our best options; yeah #8 is a tad dark but look at the Eleventh Doctor's infobox image, no problems there. I'm with OttelSpy25 in regards to #12., plus 12 this series has grown lighter in attitude and more kind-hearted, which the image reflects - note contrast to the current. Perhaps if we crop them a tad, they'll be ready for round 2? #7, 3 and 11 would be good options too with each being particularly clear; 11 especially due to being in character, though it may be too similar to the current image, having coming from the same episode? Overall, #12 is my preferred pick. Snivystorm ☎  00:01, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * As I noted at Talk:Nardole, it's about more than just cropping the image. Some shots are meant to show a variety of things -- backgrounds, other characters, etc -- and some shots are just supposed to show the character's faces. There's a difference between how shots 2 and 12 were taken, and thus 2 represents a quality that all other images fail to posses. OS25 (Talk) 00:11, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Maybe more so #8 then, as the background isn't distracting given it is black and it provides a clear shot of his face like #2 - except has the scar/blood from his fight with the Master, a tad distracting? If only there was some way to fuse #2, 11 and 12 together. it appears that we're all agreeing #2, 8 and 12 are the best choices so far. Snivystorm ☎  08:17, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes. Basically, it's up between 2 and 12, but really someone should be searching for a new set of images. OS25 (Talk) 08:23, July 4, 2017 (UTC)

Round 2
Okay, given the above discussion, I've narrowed down the candidates to the ones present. Feel free to discuss further. I kept #8 as well as there were no objections. Snivystorm ☎  11:32, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * I've re-cropped the images based on Shambala's advice. At this point I like all of the images but I have to say I really like 2 - despite it being a little dark, I think it suits the Twelfth Doctor. I'll keep adding possible images when I find them to contend with those which have made it through. 66 Seconds ☎  11:59, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I like #1 but it's just that slight blood spec on his forehead (#2 is arguably superior as it lacks such but retains the images qualities) it's just feels really distracting. The lighting of #1 and 2 isn't a massive issue, as stated earlier there are vastly darker images that we use as infobox images so that one isn't too bad. I still feel #3 is the best of the group, given it is bright, looks at the article and has a kind of 12th Doctor charm he has gradually developed as his era progressed. Snivystorm ☎  12:05, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Just noticed the new set of images. #7 and 14 looked pretty good, matching the same reasons why I like option #3 yet their more neutral in appearance, likely making them more favourable among the general viewer. #14 is also cropped nicely and pretty bright as well, providing the quality of #1 with the brightness of #3. While I personally prefer #7, 14 matches the general advice for infobox images the best. Snivystorm ☎  15:27, July 4, 2017 (UTC)

I also really like 14, now more so than 2. My main problem with 7 is that the background is brighter than the face, so stands out more than the Doctor. I also like 8 for the expression, and the clarity of the Doctor's facial features against the background. On 17, the contrast is too low. I'm also not keen on 5, due to the projection of text on the face. While 15 is clear and fits general advice, I find that it is overshadowed by the fact that this is taken from when the Doctor shot the General. 66 Seconds ☎  16:01, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed, though I still prefer #7 to #8 just due to his more neutral expression. Looks like #2 and 14 are our best bet with #7 and #8 on the fence. Ideally, we need more opinions for a better overview of the General concensus.Snivystorm  ☎  17:43, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * You're gonna have this problem a lot with the latest Moffat seasons, but the tonal lighting does make a few of these harder to choose. In particular, the fact that Capaldi's face sort of blends into the background in #14 ruins it a tad. If this wasn't the case, I would say that was a winner. This also sort-of effects #s 6 and 7.


 * Image 5 is right out, because the projection effect makes it look like the Doctor is wearing a breathing mask or something. The inclusion of Clara lightly in the background on image 9 is both brilliant and questionable. Clara was the most important character to the Doctor before her exit, and the blurriness could represent her memory being someone non-intact. However, I think most people would agree that with series 10, Capaldi out-lived this element. A final note for those hunting for images is that it's best to find ones where the background isn't too complex -- if I'm staring at whatever's behind Capaldi and thinking "What is that? A waste bin?" then it isn't best for the infobox.


 * Given that the blood splatter on #1 bothered so many people, I've gone ahead and simply cropped it out. Now it's even closer to the face! Again, sadly I have no idea when this will be visible on the actual wiki. Over all, good work on finding a new set of images that offer much more promise! OS25 (Talk) 17:56, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * I can't figure out if policy disallows colour corrected images, but just for reference, here's what 14 would look like if it were ideal for use. OS25 (Talk) 18:08, July 4, 2017 (UTC)


 * Wow, I didn't even see Clara there in #9 before, that is pretty cool, as you said, beautiful symbolism. However, given what's been said, #2 seems to have edged over the rest given how it's black background means no distractions and just complete focus on the Doctor. Good job removing the blood from #1 though I'd still say #2 edges out on it; contrast caused by the light on the face is just a tiny bit worse to me than #2's but I'm nitpicking - either of them would be great images for the infoboxes now. Overall though, #2 is looking like our winner - no one's found anything truly wrong with it yet the other images don't share. Snivystorm ☎  18:11, July 4, 2017 (UTC)

Three-year arc
Is content in this article any worth noting on the page: http://io9.gizmodo.com/doctor-whos-season-finale-wrapped-up-a-three-year-long-1796592385? --DCLM ☎  21:22, July 3, 2017 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, but where do we put it? Snivystorm ☎  21:33, July 3, 2017 (UTC)