Talk:War Doctor/Archive 2

Article title
I think the name of this Doctor is a bit vague. The Eleventh Doctor refers to this one as his secret. I think referring to him as "the Secret Doctor" is a more apt description than "Unknown Doctor", "Unknown Iteration" or "The Doctor (The Name of the Doctor)". I figure this is better from a narrative point of view for the wiki until we get a more apt description from the show.


 * I don't agree. He is credited as "The Doctor" in "The Name of the Doctor" so I believe it is a correct title for now for the article. When the Anniversary comes out I'm sure it will be changed but for now I think the current title is correct. --BorgKnight ☎  04:34, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * "Unknown Doctor" is a bit vague, "unspecified past Doctor" would be quite consistent with what is shown on screen.86.160.61.43talk to me 08:41, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * We don't know that he's a past Doctor. Just about all we have to go on is his credit as "The Doctor," we should leave any further tweaking of the title until after something is revealed in the show to prompt it. &mdash; Rob T Firefly - &#916;&#8711; - 00:19, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * All we know for sure is that he is dark incarnation of the Doctor, based on the conversation with Eleven and the closing credits... Can we call him "The Doctor (Dark)" or "The Dark-tor" until we have something other than speculation to go on? -- 110.34.4.242talk to me 06:03, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, because that would go beyond basic conjecture. He's an incarnation of the Doctor who debuted in The Name of the Doctor, and we shouldn't make up words to describe him. -- Snorlax Monster  06:14, June 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Whoever it was who mentioned "War Doctor"- that's a really good idea. That's what they called him the credits and that describes him perfectly (it can change post-50th, don't forget).
 * The Farty  Doctor   Talk  20:50, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Should this Doctor be added to the Incarnations of the Doctor group?
The page used to be in this group, but CzechOut removed it because of 11 stating that "I said he was me, I never said he was the Doctor."

Is this character not just as much The Doctor as the Valeyard or the Dream Lord? Just because this character either does not use, or is not worthy of the name "Doctor" doesn't mean he should not be in the same group. The 11th Doctor very obviously states that "Doctor Hurt" is the same person. It's in fact the same character. A name change doesn't mean he doesn't belong in the same group. At this point, he fits perfectly into the same group as the Valeyard or the Dream lord, both of which are still listed under Incarnations of the Doctor.

I think you're taking his quote about him not being the Doctor way too literally. Hurt is still quite obviously credited as the Doctor. You can't really argue with that. It's in big fat letters on the screen during the episode.


 * I'm not convinced that this Doctor is an incarnation of "our" Doctor. All were shown was a caption, not an identity. Who knows, it could be his father or a mentor whom he named himself after. Badwolff ☎  22:48, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Doctor says to Clara that "he is me", I think we are indeed dealing with the same individual here. The real question is, is he a past or future incarnation? The Doctor seemed to recognize him from his past, and it could be possible that this is the Doctor who ended the Last Great Time-War. As the time war took place in the space between the classic and current series, we don't really know if it was the 8th incarnation who used The Moment to end the time war. We can tentatively assume that it wasn't the 9th incarnation, as he seems to have just recently regenerated in the pilot episode of the new series Rose, where he examines himself in a mirror for what appears to be the first time. When the 11th entered the time wound, it's possible he saw his future, and saw what this new incarnation did... however it seems like this would cause far too many paradoxes. Not only that, but if the Doctor is to avoid a paradox involving his death, the TARDIS cannot change again before his death, as the Doctor's Tomb seems to be an aged and wild version of the current TARDIS interior. To that point, he could always change it back to that old design before going on his final voyage. To redirect back to the main focus, if this unknown incarnation is an old one, perhaps an incarnation between the 8th and 9th who The Doctor decided to not mention due to the atrocities in the time war he committed while in that body, that would make the 11th doctor the 12th regeneration. And, if the 10th Doctor's use of a regeneration to heal himself from the Dalek gunstick blast was indeed a full use of a regeneration, the 11th Doctor may be all out of regenerations, making him the final Doctor. Ark of Death ☎  23:13, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is getting a bit into the theory area and should probably go to Howling:The Howling. At this point we know almost nothing about this Doctor. We don't know if he's past, future, a paradox...he could be anything. And we don't know anything about the number of regenerations the Doctor has left. We've been given multiple numbers (at one point he says that he has 507 regenerations), he was given regenerations by River and there's just no way to know. Remember that it's possible to change history, even the Doctor's personal history, that the Doctor lies and that there are about a thousand different ways for writers to get rid of old plot points so that they don't affect future continuity. So let's try and stay focused on this page about what we know. Not what we guess or what we think. That stuff is fun, but doesn't belong here. Anoted ☎  23:22, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's stick with the facts. We might know little about Hurt's Doctor, but we know some stuff. Such as: 11 specifically and explicitly says that Hurt's Doctor "is me, but not the Doctor." As best as I can tell, this means Hurt is an actual and legitimate incarnation of the Doctor, but one that did something so horrible that he lost thte right to call himself "Doctor". Thus, he is definitely the same being as the Doctor, but forbidden to use the same name. -- Bold  Clone  15:31, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The very last second of the episode literally says "Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor". Maybe he doesn't use the name "Doctor", maybe he's no allowed to. But the category isn't for people who call themselves Doctor, lots of people do that. The category is for versions of the renegade Time Lord that we know as the Doctor, and therefore this Doctor belongs. It's really that simple. Anoted ☎  15:36, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The category is for in-universe pages. The only in-universe info we got was 11 saying he's not the Doctor. The credits are irrelevant in this case, because they are out-of-universe. Shambala108 ☎  04:32, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * ...And yet you neglect the fact that 11 specifically claims Hurt's Doctor to be himself, only not called the Doctor. This is the same situation as the Valeyard and the Dream Lord; they are both the Doctor, but not called by that name. -- Bold  Clone  15:24, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

He's an incarnation of the Doctor, therefore he should be included regardless of whether he's considered "Doctor" or not 5.70.30.138talk to me 20:40, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * But we actually don't know yet that he is an incarnation (indeed, describing him in the article as such might be premature). Until the anniversary special airs and we know more about him, we cannot say whether he's an actual incarnation, or if he ranks with the Dream Lord, Valeyard and the Watcher. So I agree with him not being included in the official list until we learn more. 70.72.201.229talk to me 14:11, June 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Dream Lord, Valeyard and the Watcher are all listed on the "Incarnations of the Doctor" template; if they belong there, so does this Doctor. -- Bold  Clone  23:35, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

The Name
Think back to what The Doctor says about the Star Whale-that if he killed it he would have to choose a new name because he wouldn't be The Doctor any more. That seems to indicate that if The Doctor betrays his title/name then he must abandon it.
 * This page is not for theorising, it's for collaborating on this article. Take speculation to Howling:The Howling, there are threads there for it. &mdash; Rob T Firefly - &#916;&#8711; - 02:44, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

It was The Doctor's own words though, which was why I thought it wasn't mere speculation so apologies!

Does the Doctor know his future self?
Has the Doctor known anything about his future selves before? The structure of the episode, including its fourth-wall-breaking final comments, seems to indicate that he is a future Doctor, but has the Doctor ever known about his future incarnations before, with the exception of the Valeyard? Alternatively, did we see the Valeyard die on TV (that is, is it possible that this Doctor is the Valeyard)? Tim4christ17 talk 03:53, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Doctor assumed the Valeyard was trapped in the Gallifreyian Matrix. But we see that he escapes it. So the answer is, the last we seen he was alive on Gallifrey. -- Loyal Companion


 * The First Doctor encounters the Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth in "The Five Doctors." The Second Doctor encounters the Sixth in "The Two Doctors." The Fifth Doctor encounters the Tenth in "Time Crash." For production reasons, these stories always air during the run of the later Doctor. The BBC isn't going to cast an actor to play the Doctor years later just to do an episode where the Doctor sees his future and they are going to bring back old actors fans love. In universe, however, all of these stories are every bit as real for the older as for the newer regenerations. The Tenth Doctor even explicitly mentions remembering meeting himself (Ten) back when he was the Fifth Doctor. So yes he has met later versions of himself.
 * However it is also strongly implied that the Doctor doesn't always remember the details of such meetings. When Ten meets Five, it's strongly implied that he only remembers doing so after the cloister bell rings, unlocking some sort of memory block. School Reunion suggests he doesn't remember the events of The Five Doctors because as far as Ten recalls, he hasn't seen Sarah Jane since the events of The Hand of Fear. 70.72.201.229talk to me 14:14, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Identity Information
Recently some "spoilers" were accident released regarding this Doctor's indentity.

I think this should be added in a Behind The Scenes section to this article.

Here is a link to the article in question

http://blogtorwho.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/more-details-on-john-hurt-in-50th.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BlogtorWho+(Blogtor+Who)
 * Per Tardis:Valid sources, as this information is about an unreleased story it should not be included in the article. -- Snorlax Monster  08:22, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Name not mentioned on screen
When the article name is changed it'll need to be noted that he is not referred to as the War Doctor on screen, just in the closing credits, at least in the minisode (that may change, of course). Also, media are already beginning to refer to him as the Ninth Doctor, so a redirect of some sort will need to be added to Ninth Doctor. I will take the liberty if it isn't locked and no one else has done it already. 68.146.70.124talk to me 14:19, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think a hatnote on "Ninth Doctor" is better than a redirect. Furthermore, he isn't actually the "Ninth Doctor" because he isn't a "Doctor" due to breaking the "promise" and using a different name. Also, it had been made incredibly clear that Matt Smith is the Eleventh Doctor anyway. -- Snorlax Monster  14:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * His name is mentioned in July's issue of Sky Jacks, where the Doctor who ends the Time War is called the Renegade. That's about as in-universe as we're gonna get, and he's not called the Doctor then either. --Revan\Talk 14:44, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest we wait until after the 23rd to make a decision on this. Silent Hunter UK ☎  19:21, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh no. Please, we can't keep this name. That was good when he only appeared in "The Name of the Doctor". Now, he is in two different stories so... The Renegade or the War Doctor, I think. If they put "The War Doctor" in the credits, it is not an coincidence :) Lady Junky 19:31, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hopefully we'll get a better name for him next Saturday, but until then "The War Doctor" does seem the most appropriate. "The War Doctor" might not be an in-universe name, but neither is "The Doctor", and in my opinion just calling him "The Doctor" even with a parenthetical is even worse from an in-universe perspective since one of the few things we do seem to know about him is that he did not go by that name. Burzolog ☎  20:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lady Junky, it's site policy to use the name of the character's debut episode when disambiguation is needed. But I agree that this article should be called The War Doctor, as that's what he's called in Night of the Doctor's credits.