Howling:Little girl

Who is this little girl? Is she somehow related to the Doctor? *Spoilers*

She is seen regenerating at the end of the episode Day of the Moon. Post speculations below! Tyw7 (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 18:15, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

There were rumours before TIA last week that we would see River Song as a child. So I think the little girl could possibly be River Song. But on the other hand, it was revealed that Amy is pregnant, and there were pictures in that orphanage of Amy with a baby. So it could also be Amy's daughter Saxon 3 18:28, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ok spoilers people!! If you don't want things spoiled then don't open this link: I was initially disappointed about this but from what just happened with the Little Girl, I'm kinda pleased that the revelation won't be a total let down. --Revan\Talk 18:32, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

It's obviously Amy's daughter......the Silence must have impregnated her with cells while she was trapped in that wherever-it-was. Why did the Doctor have to know? It's his child. Simple really......thought how River Song fits into this eludes me. the twelfth doctor 18:42, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ah of course, the Silence impregnated her, that makes more sense since she seemed to be joking around at Rory's expense by suggesting that she had "relations" with the Doctor before Rory joined. --Revan\Talk 18:48, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

OK, so according to that link Revan put up above, River is a time lord, and therefore might be the Doctor's daughter, and his wife. Ehm........ewwww. the twelfth doctor 18:51, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

I was trying to keep things spoiler-lite there, but the Howlingis for spoilers anyway... That is kinda weird isn't it? I'm really hoping for the Silence being the surrogate daddy and not the Doctor being the father because that is bringing up the arguement on incest... --Revan\Talk 18:55, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

I've uploaded the scene on YouTube.

Tyw7 (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 19:07, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

In the trailer we hear a voive going "I've killed hundreds of Time Lords". I wonder if this is the Head Silent speaking, and the Silence have been attempting to make themselves as powerful as the time lords. In doing so have then been attempting to fuse their DNA with themselves (first using experiments like Amy), because the Aickman Road machine is very like a TARDIS. Saxon 3 19:25, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe The Silence impregnated her and that they have obtained Time Lord DNA somehow. Used it to impregnate her. Might not be The Doctor's daughter. 92.29.189.121 19:55, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Then again, Amy said she thought she was pregnant before the Silence kidnapped her. But if River Song is Amy's daughter, and a Time Lord it would tie things up nicely - for instance the Little Girl has an American accent, River doesn't. Saxon 3 20:12, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey have an attempted TARDIS, a time machine. Who says they didn't go back, capture her then impregnated her, and just recaptured her to see how things were going or to abort it? 92.29.189.121 20:15, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Looking a bit too deeply into the monitoring scene now, the scanner seems to fluctuate between "preggers" and "non-preggers", this could be some kind of temporal distortion. If this was the case then Amy could get pregnant in a later episode and then there could be time ripples of the pregnancy going back through her timeline explaining the weird scanner anomaly. --Revan\Talk 20:18, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Or the scanner could just be analyzing and they cut the scene before it shows the result. V00D00M0NKY 03:21, May 1, 2011 (UTC)




 * Oooorrrr.... Since the Doctor is the "Last of the Time Lords" and the TARDIS knows that, maybe the baby is a Time Lord/Lady and the TARDIS is just rejecting that thought.... TheTARDIScontroller 03:56, May 1, 2011 (UTC)



I'm gonna take a really wild guess here and say that the little girl is in fact the Twelfth Doctor, mostly because it would be so awesome if in a few months time I turn out to be right. Taptaptaptap 05:55, May 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * That makes INSANELY no sense. If the Twelfth Doc killed the 11th doc, then the 12th doc wouldn't be around to kill the 11th doc... Classic case of the "Grandfather Paradox". It wouldn't be able to happen. TheTARDIScontroller 08:16, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this would work, but could the girl be River and the Doctor's child? River could have already had her in her timeline (in the Doctor's future) - perhaps the Silence erased the memory from her, or she's not supposed to say anything for some reason?
 * But at first Amy says she's preggers but after a visit to the Silence "tardis" she no longer is. Perhaps the silence took it out... somehow. Tyw7 (☎ Contact me! • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 10:32, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm actually surprised noone has said "Little Girl = The Rani/Romana/The woman/Rose/Susan/any other female in the new and old series."
 * It could be possible that the girl is Amy and Rory's child. If she was pregnant before the Silence abducted her then they could have simply altered the DNA of the fetus to make it be able to regenerate or time travell had a similar effect.
 * Another possibility is the girl is aTime Lady that somehow escaped the Time War. Which (given the 4th episode has the title "The Doctor's Wife") could be possible.
 * I'm actually surprised noone has said "Little Girl = The Rani/Romana/The woman/Rose/Susan/any other female in the new and old series."
 * It could be possible that the girl is Amy and Rory's child. If she was pregnant before the Silence abducted her then they could have simply altered the DNA of the fetus to make it be able to regenerate or time travell had a similar effect.
 * Another possibility is the girl is aTime Lady that somehow escaped the Time War. Which (given the 4th episode has the title "The Doctor's Wife") could be possible.
 * Another possibility is the girl is aTime Lady that somehow escaped the Time War. Which (given the 4th episode has the title "The Doctor's Wife") could be possible.


 * We don't actually know that it was the little girl who killed the Doctor. The space suit was capable of operating itself without an occupant, and River said it was repairing itsself. Since the little girl is no longer in the space suit, it could be more likely that the space suit either killed the Doctor itsself, or it "ate" somebody else who killed the Doctor. Whoever killed him, I doubt that the girl is the 12th Doctor, just because that means that after Matt Smith decides to leave the show, his successor would have to be a little girl. Plus, unless time is rewritten, there won't be a 12th Doctor. Based on the pictures in the girl's room, it is more likely Amy's child than an escaped Time Lord.Icecreamdif 13:17, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * about your theory on her being the doctors wife, i think rivers kiss at the end of day of the moon was straight forward enough to say she's the doctor's wife :/
 * i think she may be a full timelord who may have escaped the timewar, as for the spacesuit...i honestly have no theories for that yet -_-
 * DarkShadowSword 14:18, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * i think she may be a full timelord who may have escaped the timewar, as for the spacesuit...i honestly have no theories for that yet -_-
 * DarkShadowSword 14:18, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Amy isn't the mother at all, shes just a surrogate parent since there are no Time Lady's left, but then Amy treats the child like shes the mother (hence the photos). --Revan\Talk 14:40, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Right. We know that the girl got out of the spacesuit in 1969. 42 years later in 2011 it emerged from lake silencio, killed the doctor that was 2 centuries older than the one in 1969 and went back into the lake. Ther could very well be someone else in it. bbut if the girl was a time lady and could regenerate why would she need a life support system in the first place? Doctorpenguin 20:39, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

She would still only be able to regenerate 12 times, so she could be using the life support system to avoid wasting a regeneration, and as the Doctor said in The End of Time, regeneration feels like death. A regeneration may be preferable to dying, but it is still something to be avoided. Either way, it didn't seem like it was the girl's choice to enter the space suit.Icecreamdif 20:53, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Another big question of course is why hasn't the Doctor sensed her? It's not like what happened with The Master, he at first had the fob watch which made him human and then used the Archangel netowork to conceal himself from the Doctor. This also hints more that the little girl is not a natural born Time Lord (Lady). As for the Spacesuit I don't think we've seen the last of it, it may be we discover who has replaced the occupant in a future episode. Saxon 3 21:15, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Hi, here is my theory of who the little girl from "The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon" is;

I think she is the daughter of Amy and Rory, and as Amy said in "Day of the Moon", the TARDIS had an effect on her, giving her the power to regenerate.

I think she is also River Song. And she killed the Doctor in the space suit, in Utah 2011 (DW: The Impossible Astronaut).

The reason the Silence want her to be cared for is because she will kill the Doctor, leaving them free to destroy the universe, hence "Silence will Fall".

The little girl/River Song is also the Doctor's second wife - Idris (DW: The Doctor's Wife) being the first.

The Doctor's first wife would be Susan's grandmother, and she is presumably dead, like all other Time Lords. I doubt that Idris is literally the Doctor's wife though, the title will probably be more metaphorical than that. When Amy talked about side effects the TARDIS could have on pregnancies, the Doctor laughed it off, and seemed to think that that was nonsense, and Amy can't possibly know what side effects time travel would have on pregnancy. It would be an amazing side effect of TARDIS travel, if it can give an unborn child the power of regeneration. If the girl is Amy and Rory's child, its regeneration abilities probably have something to do with whatever the Silence were doing to Amy when they captured her. It also isn't likely that River was the one in the space suit, because River was already on the beach with the rest of them, and the first law of time forbids anyone from being in the same place at the same time as themself from another time zone. Apart from that, River went on to start shooting the astronaut, which she wouldn't do if she was the astronaut, and River seems to love the Doctor, and probably wouldn't want to kill him. Icecreamdif 22:08, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * The First Law of Time can be broken, you know. It easily could have been River there, unlikely though it may be. -- Bold  Clone  23:05, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

The first law of time has been broken before, but usually the Timelords are involved. The only times the Timelords weren't involved in breaking the first law, were Father's Day and The Big Bang. In Father's Day, breaking the first law of time obviously had negative consequences, and in The Big Bang, the universe had just been destoroyed, so it was okay to ignore the laws of time. Even if River was able to break the first law of time, it doesn't really make sense for her to be the astronaut. River seemed just as shocked as anyone when the astronaut killed the Doctor, and if she was the one in the suit, River wouldn't have started shooting the astronaut. Also, if River did kill the Doctor, than he would probably be the great man that she killed. Because she ended up in a 51st century prison, it can be assumed that she killed whoever she killed in the 51st or 52nd centuries, not the 21st.Icecreamdif 23:44, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Is no one thinking that maybe she isn't the Doctor's child? What if the reason she's a Time Lord is because of the wierdness Amy has been exposed to? She has been present at the end of the universe (sort of), was in the Pandorica for a couple thousand years, and to top it all off the current Doctor, Rory, and who knows what else more exist because she remembers them - her memory brought them back into existance in the Fifth Series finale.

Here me out, here. Ever wondered why the Time Lords are so similar to humans, with vastly improved versions of the same body systems (same appearance, red blood, similar shaped hearts/lungs/skeleton, breathing the same gases, FACIAL HAIR for God`s sake!)? And why the Doctor, even early in his first incarnation when he didn't like humans, ALWAYS stuck around humanity and protected Earth? And what it was that scared the Doctor when he looked into the Time Vortex?

Here comes some wild speculation. What if the radiation and overall wierdness Amy was exposed to have given her child the inherit abilities of a Time Lord, only with human organs and such, and that's why she's dying? This might explain the similarity between humans and Time Lords, since when regeneration occurs the new body tends to improve (the First Doctor got his second heart when he regenerated, the Doctor tends to get younger each time he regenerates). If the strange circumstances of her birth meant she had a weak immune system or conflicting biology (entirely possible - remember what happened to Donna with a Time Lord brain), she could possibly regenerate with an improved version of the human body, resulting in Time Lord biology.

But wouldn't she already have it, you ask? here's where the really crazy ideas come out. What if the girl is in fact the first Time Lord, the being from which the whole race sprang? After all, we have never heard much of Time Lord history, the earliest solid record being just before they got time travel. That would take millenia to reach, so there's some wiggle room.

The girl is obviously lost and trying to escape the Silence, and the demi-TARDIS was almost certainly meant for her use. My guess is that somewhere in the future, after her birth, she is kidnapped by the Silence and forced by them to make another TARDIS, so that they can spread their control to other places and times. This could also explain their attempt to take control 0f the real TARDIS in Series 5 - the explosion might not have been intended to happen.

Well, there's my theory. Feel free to find the flaws in it. Exfil22


 * Nice theory, but Rassilon and Omega are considered the founders of the Time Lords. But what you said about her being the first Time Lord - I think the Silence have created a new generation of Time Lords, with the little girl possibly being the first. Also it has been suggested that these Silent TARDISes are all over the world I think it would make sense. Saxon 3 13:21, May 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Founders of the society, yes. The first ones, no. Like I said, the whole thing with Rassilon and Omega happened just before the first time travel experiment. There were thousands of years before this in which the Time Lords progressed and reached technological dominance. These are called the Dark Times, look it up on the wiki. Time Lords are not immortal, nor were they handed their tech immediatley. The history before Rassilon, Omega, and all the rest (yes there were others) is myth at best, an opening which could easily be used to fit the girl in. Exfil22


 * It makes sense to restore the Time Lord race so that the Silence can dominate them like they did humans. On one side you've got species who can build time vessels that are bigger on the inside and on the other you've gor a race who won't invent a crude form of time travel for another 3000ish years. Time Guardian 13:56, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

Why is no one thinking the obvious - that she's the Doctor and Amy's child? This was hinted at all through the two episodes, and the possibility of Amy's baby being his certainly occured to the Doctor. Actually, I think this is what they intend us to believe at the moment, even if it's just a red herring to throw us of the scent of something else. Who knows?

What if the little girl is River Song? And Amy's Daughter? Amy  Pond .  River Song. My family and friends who watch doctor who certainly find it plausible Doctorpenguin 20:11, May 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Their timelines are back to front. Always. River's invitation to the Doctor's death in the season premiere was a big deal, requiring huge effort (invitations sent through space and time). Plus, look at River's description of their first meeting in the premiere. Definatley not a baby's experience.


 * Also, RIVER IS HUMAN. No one seems to remember this. She has one heart, no special Time Lord body, no Time Lord telepathy, et cetera. River is not the girl, unless that wasn't a regeneration. Exfil22

Am I the only one who thinks it would be gross that The Doctor was making out with his own daughter if this was true? 68.225.171.64 07:43, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

No you are not. If River and the girl were the Doctor's daughter not only is this gross but think of the controversy. Parents get very agitated when something like that happens in a programme for kids. Also if the Doctor was the father of Amy's child then that would mean that there is no way their could be any douht about Amy been pregnent since (from her perspective) it would be 5 months into her pregnancy and everyone would notice it then.

If Amy is pregnant then it would need to be early enough for people to not notice but late enough for her to be sick over it.

River and the Doctor's timelines are not back to front. We already knew that a future version of the Doctor will eventually meet River to give her sonic screwdriver, and if their lives were back to front, the diaries would be useless. The whole point of the diaries is to find their common experiences, which they wouldn't have if they were meeting in perfect reverse order. Besides, when River and the 1103 Doctor were comparing diaries, River didn't seem surprised, at all, that they shared common experiences in the diary. When River said that their lives were back to front, she meant that in general she met later versions of the Doctor earlier in her timeline and earlier versions of the Doctor later in her timeline, but not in perfect reverse order. So far, apart from the 1103 Doctor, we have only seen them meet in perfect-reverse order, but she has only been in 4 episodes so far. We actually don't know that River only has one heart and is human, although she probably is. The Doctor would probably know if she was a time lady. We don't even know if the little girl is a Time Lord though. The Minyans could regenerate thousands of times, who knows how many other species have the ability.Icecreamdif 13:41, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Remember that the Gallifreyans were "augmented" into Time Lords by Rassilon's biological tampering; before that, they had one heart, couldn't regenerate, didn't sense time lines or empathically connect with TARDISes, etc. Morbius promised to do the same for other races; Mawdryn and friends were able to partly reproduce the ability from stolen Time Lord technology; etc. And that's just on TV--in the novels and BFAs, it was even established that fully-grown humans could be turned into Time Lords. (Good thing they didn't do that with Leela--she would have become sterile like all Time Ladies were in the VNAs, so she couldn't have had Andred's baby, so he wouldn't have gone back in time to become The Other and eventually pseudo-regenerate himself into the Doctor....)

Anyway, this means that, in the Whoniverse, it's clearly scientifically possible to start with a purely human embryo and somehow add in the ability to regenerate. It's questionable whether it's within the technological means of the Silence to do so, but there are probably other possible culprits.

Here's a crazy theory: The Silence maneuvered the events of last season to erase the universe, counting on the fact that the Doctor would come up with some clever way to reboot it from Amy's memories. Meanwhile, they'd implanted into Amy's mind a subconscious memory that they'd been in control of humanity for millennia, and also that they had an embryo they'd stolen from her (even though she didn't know she was pregnant at the time), and some kind of Time Lord technology that could be used to turn that embryo into a Time Fetus. So, when the new universe was created from her memories, all of those things were now true. And, when they captured Amy, they re-implanted the embryo. This might even explain why the TARDIS scanner is confused--either because she didn't get pregnant the normal way, or because she's not carrying a normal human, her biology is all confusing. Of course somehow Amy's sickly but secretly superhuman daughter will have to get stranded in the 1960s (and it would have to be in 1963, at 3 years old or so, because how could it not be 1963 on Doctor Who?) for the Silence to pick up and protect until 1969, but that wouldn't be too hard to plot out in the rest of the season. --99.33.26.0 05:00, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

How about this i read that the little girl is named Susan and that this is mention in Doctor Who confidential so could it be possible the the little girl is Susan Foreman and that when she first regenerated it was to the body of a little girl, or the girl cold be Romana sshe escape the time war regenreated to a little girl and changed her DNA to human like The Doctor did when he bacme John Smith in the Family of Blood and recently opened her fog watch regained her memories get capture by the Silence escapes and regenerates the same cold said if she cold be the Rani.Michiru 14 12:50, May 6, 2011 (UTC)

Has anybody thought about the fact that in Flesh and stone The doctor finds out that River killed a man ( and a very good man ). This was why she was imprisoned in the stormcage. Could it not be her in the suit killing the doctor? In this case she would know what she is going to do, just something to think about.Silencewillfall 17:31, May 6, 2011 (UTC) Mpvanch

just to stop all the speculation that the girl is river river tryed to kill the girl she would not have done that if it where her becuse she knows the laws of time and that would cause a paradox if it was river as a girl that would of been in her past so she would know about it and not be so shocked and upset. sorry to all those who were hopeing it was river to be honest the girl is of time lord desent clue one ) she has super human strength clue two ) she regenerated and clue three ) when the doctor is talking about her he says "strong and running i like her" what if he likes her becuse she rimends him of him implying he is the dad Whooligist 21:16, May 7, 2011 (UTC) "speculation is there to be proved wrong"
 * Well, since "speculation is there to be proved wrong," let meprove this wrong: the girl is supposedly the Doctor's daughter. At best, the evidence shows that he girl is a Time Lord. Your only evidence that the girl is the Doctor's daughter is that when the Doctor refers to her, he says "strong and running--I like her." To me, that is just plainly interpreted as "she seems nice." The Doctor might say the same thing about Amy or River: "stong-willed and a runner--I like her." -- Bold  Clone  21:45, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

According to IMDB--which I'd guess has a good chance of being wrong, but see the other thread for that--the little girl is Lucy Cole, the future Lucy Saxon. Other spoilers imply very strongly that she's also Amy's daughter. Neither of these gives any answer for why she can regenerate. So many mysteries... and I think the Moff wants it that way. So, don't stop speculating. --99.33.26.0 02:20, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

Ok I have another thought to throw out there, the first episode we see the silence's TARDIS is "the lodger". Could there be any chance the little girl at the top of the stairs (can you help me please) has anything to do with the little girl in season 6? I will need to watch that episode again tonight to see if there is any resemblance Tooty1967 11:40, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

okay scratch that, she was a hologram 1 of at least three, back to the drawing boardTooty1967 17:52, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

I came to say I told you so! Doctorpenguin 09:51, June 8, 2011 (UTC)

We know who the little girl is now, but that still leaves one obvious question; how did she end up with the Silence? Did the Silence kidnap her from the church, or are the Silence working with them? We know that the Silence were at the children's home for at least two years, and Melody was much older than two in The Impossible Astronaut, so where was she before 1967, how did she end up with the Silence, and what do the Silence want with her?Icecreamdif 15:53, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

The Silence are hardly likely to have kidnapped Amy (albeit the Flesh copy of Amy) in the girl's room, where there was a photo of Amy with the baby, purely by coincidence. Whatever plan the Silence have, it involves both mother and daughter, although Amy's role in it may now be over. Kovarian's plan involves them both, too, although Amy's role in that may also now be over. There has to be a connection between the two plans. Perhaps the two groups are working together. Perhaps they're opposed. Perhaps the Silence simply found out about Kovarian's plan and decided to hijack it (or part of it) for their own purposes. Or perhaps both lots are working for someone else, even if they don't know they are. There's lots we still don't know. --2.101.59.209 18:01, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

The Silence obviously needed Amy for something, since they kidnapped her, but Kovarian probably only needed Amy because she needed to expeiment on her while she was pregnant to make the baby more Timelord, and because she needed bait to lure the Doctor to Demon's Run. Also, keep in mind, the Silence didn't kidnap Amy. They kidnapped her Ganger. Whether they knew it was a Ganger or not is another question, but the Silence didn't do anything to the real Amy. We also don't know that the two plans are related. It's possible that Kovarian took Melody to Earth, the Silence found out about her, kidnapped her, and came up with a completely different plan involving her.Icecreamdif 22:41, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

"Also, keep in mind, the Silence didn't kidnap Amy. They kidnapped her Ganger." Why do you think I said, "kidnapped Amy (albeit the Flesh copy of Amy)"? I was talking about their plans -- what they intended to do. The fact that they may not have managed to do it is irrelevant to that. Anyway, they did get the real Amy's mind. If they wanted to plant instructions or to do something else mental, they may have got all they needed. It's extremely unlikely the plans are wholly unrelated, except that they just happen to involve exactly the same people. If "the Silence found out about her, kidnapped her, and came up with a completely different plan involving her" that's the kind of thing I meant by the Silence "decided to hijack it (or part of it) for their own purposes." To some extent, we may be arguing about terminology, rather than what we actually mean. All of which simply reinforces the point that there's a lot we don't yet know. --89.240.243.174 05:36, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

After River Song shoots at the person that just killed the Doctor (in Impossible Astronaut) she says "No, of course not." If it was a younger version of her then it was good that she didn't kill herself. But then why did she react by shooting at all, shouldn't she have remembered it?

The way she reacts to meeting Rory (in A Good Man Goes to War) it seems like she may not have seen him in a long while. It feels different to the way she has reacted to Amy. So maybe Rory dies, and maybe he is the very good man she kills and is imprisoned for. I doubt that she would be imprisoned for killing the Doctor as a child, she would have been just a pawn at that age. Also, how did Rory get to Stormcage without the Doctor? [unsigned]

I caught that too--River reacts in an interesting way to seeing Rory in A Good Man Goes to War. I think that, in her timeline, that's the first time that River meets [and remembers] Rory. Obviously, she (well, her Flesh) met him as a baby. But she has this tone that suggests she's really saying "You must be Rory," like she's figuring out who he is rather than remembering him. Then, at the end, I think that's a River from a very different part of her timeline, not the one who'd just celebrated her birthday with Stevie Wonder in 1880-whatever. That River has met Amy and Rory as an adult before.72.14.229.49 01:53, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's her birthday and she's drunk. However, here's a bit of speculation: let's assume that Rory is the "good man, best man I've ever known" that she killed and this was the first time she had seen him after she killed him. Just a thought. Boblipton 02:46, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

River probably wasn't in the astronaut suit anymore when it killed the Doctor. She escaped the suit shortly after Amy was kidnapped,so the suit must have eaten someone else. River said she already knew Rory already when he visited Stormcage, though it is possible she was lying. Presumably the Doctor had dropped Rory off at Stormcage, and either left to go pick up other people who owed him debt, or was just still in the TARDIS dealing with Vastra and Strax. Since we now know that Rory is River's father, it is very possible that River would consider him the best man she ever knew, and as the lone centurion he could be considered a hero to many. Of course, that still opens up the question as to what circumstance could possibly make River kill her own father. The River who Rory met with at the beginning was probably from a point in her timeline after the River at the end of the episode. That would explain how she knew that Rory was coming to invite her to Demon's Run, as she would have recognized the Roman outfit, and she couldn't possibly have remembered the Doctor rising higher than ever before and fallin so low from when she was a baby.Icecreamdif 04:59, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

In A Good Man Goes to War, the River that Rory speaks to near the start knows about the Battle of Demon's Run, knows that the Doctor will learn who she is, and knows that she won't arrive until the end. That strongly suggests she's older then than she is when she does arrive at the end of the battle.

In The Impossible Astronaut, there's one possible explanation of River's "No, of course not" that has nothing to do with who's in the suit. She blasts away at the suit with a revolver, not her usual energy pistol. The NASA spacesuits on which the Silence based their construct were designed to protect their inhabitants from, among other things, micrometeoroids. These are dust grains travelling so fast that one has about the same kinetic energy as a rifle bullet. The outer layers of the suit included kevlar, etc. to stop these dust grains. A revolver bullet has far less energy and it's spread over a much larger area. River might simply have realised she was shooting at a bullet-proof target. When Amy later fired at the suit (in 1969), she hit its weak point, the face plate, with the outer visor already raised, so her bullet did penetrate. --89.242.64.83 05:42, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

More evidence that River kills Rory is that after Koravian taunts the Doctor by saying good men have too many rules he retaliates with "Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good day to find out why I have so many" or something to that effect. The only other male present to go to war and survive is Rory.

The Silence hijacking the Time Lady weapon plan is the most likely explanation as the Silence don't seem to be working with Koravain and the possibility they had the same plan is more unlikely than there been two half Time ladies (though Koravain could easily have thought that two Time Ladies against the Dioctor is much better than one).--82.11.57.232 18:57, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to nit-pick but it's "Kovarian", not "Koravain". --78.146.182.222 21:09, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

The Most likely expanation for River's "No, of course not," is that bullets almost never work on aliens in Doctor Who. Another possibility about how Melody ended up with the Silence, is that the Silence needed a Timelord for some reason, so they post-hynotically suggested the idea of using Melody to defeat the Doctor to the Church, and then kidnapped Melody once they had the chance. We don't know that the Silence are only on Earth.Icecreamdif 23:59, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

From what the Doctor has said of them, the Silence are probably on several other worlds. --89.241.67.183 05:18, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. The church's reasons for going to war against the Doctor really don't make any sense if given much thought. They seem to know enough about the Doctor to know that he won't attack them unless they invade an innocent planet, or something bad like that. However, if they encountered a Silence, who said something like "You are at war with the Doctor," that would perfectly explain their motivations.Icecreamdif 12:42, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

What reasons for the war against the Doctor? None have been offered in the tv series. We don't even know if it's the whole Church, however that is defined in the Whoniverse. The Church folk in Season Five seemed pretty happy to see him.

The Doctor is, let us face it, a pain. There you are, the Daleks, happily going about your business, exterminating all other life forms in the universe, when this annoying humanoid butts in. The nerve of some people! Whether the Church or some faction of the Church is trying toget rid of him, I'm sure they have their reasons, even if they don't mean anything to us. Check out some of the issues that the Council of Nicea tackled and it will seem ridiculous to you, too. Boblipton 12:55, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

The Church aren't the Daleks though. I doubt that the Church has ever tried to destroy the universe, and I doubt that they are huge fans of the Daleks either. It is possible that the Doctor did something to annoy the Church in his past or future, but this kind of reaction is pretty much unheard of. The only thing close to it is the Alliance last season. Besides, Madame Kovarian even admitted that the Doctor was a good man. The Church probably think that they have legitimite reasons to go to war with the Doctor, and he may even have acted against them at some point, but I bet that the reason for their extreme overreaction of declaring war against him and creating a Timelord was because the Silence needed a Timelord.Icecreamdif 13:23, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

We never really saw who was controlling the Headless Monks - the ones we did see physically without heads may have been simple drones. My money would be on the leaders of the Headless being Silence. It would have been an easy matter for one of them to then contact the Church and suggest that the Doctor was their common enemy, and they should form an alliance with the Monks. 187.78.119.32 14:13, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Could Madame Kovarian be a (re)incarnation of the Rani, and the little girl is also another (re)incarnation, I know it is a long shot but there is every possibility because we don't have much info about Madame Kovarian, or why she is in this bitter fued with the Doctor. Moreover the Rani would have known about the Doctors weaknesses, his companions, so it is a motive for stealing Amy Pond, and River Song (Melody Pond). 2.96.36.31 14:59, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Kovarian's not likely to be the Rani and neither is anyone else. Copyright issues. --2.96.21.181 15:48, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

Every f***ing time a woman shows up someone goes on about it being the Rani. Give it up. Boblipton 19:00, June 16, 2011 (UTC)

The Rani doesn't really havae anything against the Doctor anyway. Yeah, he stopped a couple of her experiments, but she doesn't seem like the type to be after revenge. She is just a scientist who doesn't care about ethics. If she was Kovarian, she would be making a Timelord either to see if it was possible, or to create a new race of Timelords-not to use as a weapon. Besides, it was pretty much confirmed that Melody was the little girl, the Rani is too old to be the little girl, and if Kovarian was a Timelord she wouldn't have needed to kidnap Melody. Why is everyone always convinced the Rani is coming back anyway? She was only in 2 episodes.Icecreamdif 05:01, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think "everyone [is] always convinced the Rani is coming back"; I think they want to be convinced she is. It's a serious case of "bad girl syndrome". She won't be coming back because (a) she's a Time Lord and (b) the Beeb doesn't own the rights to the character. --78.146.185.50 11:49, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

We still need to find out what happened to the little girl in the six months between her escape from the spacesuit and her regeneration in the New York alleyway and what happened to her after that. On the assumption that she's Melody Pond (River Song), we also need to find out how she got to the orphanage and into the clutches of the Silence to start with. --89.242.78.180 17:51, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Even if she isn't Melody how the girl got into the Silence predicement is still a mystery. She would need to be a backup in case Melody failed or so they could use two Time ladies against the Doctor.

One thing I will say though is surviveing for six months on the streets is a good feat, making it to New York is even better. I would love to know how she did both.--82.11.57.232 11:08, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

Another mystery about her is why she needed the life support space suit. Melody seemed fine in A Good Man Goes to War, and she was able to survive for 6 months without the space suit, so why did the silence put her in there?Icecreamdif 14:54, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

That's a good point. The only reason I can think of for putting a human in a spacesuit while still on Earth is the same reason the Apollo astronauts were put into their suits while still on Earth -- imminent departure for an environment where life support is required. That doesn't mean there couldn't be any other reason, just that I can't think of one. --78.146.182.46 16:26, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the suit is required for time travel. The Silence may have an early version of the Time Agents wrist device that can't protect the traveler. They tracked the Doctor to that time/location and sent her there. Though why she came and left through the lake is odd. Hopefully a future episode will give us the rest of the conversation they had too. Brotherbard 19:06, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

Hiding a "TARDIS" in a lake would seem logical if it has no chamaeleon circuit. 177.17.70.236 02:07, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

Why would the Silence be using an early vortex manipulator, when they have their TARDISish machines? Melody was probably not in them space suit anymore when it killed the Doctor, as she escaped during Day of the Moon, but that still leaves the question of who was in the space suit, and why the Doctor arrraanged for them to kill him. The Silence may have brought their TARDIS device into the lake, and we have seen TARDISes survive underwater in the past, but based on The Lodger, the Silence's TARDIS devices just have perception filters, not chameleon circuits, and they were so large that they would have to be in pretty deep water to remain hidden. It is possible that the TARDIS device was further into the water, and somebody walked up to the surface in the space suit.Icecreamdif 04:08, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts off the top of my head. There are, I would guess, other possibilities.

1: Multiple lines of research. Just because the Silence were working on time/space travel using shelled equipment does not mean they would not have already developed vortex manipulators -- which is a far more dangerous way of traversing the time vortex.

2: They could build a primitive TARDIS without being able to use it. Apparently there is something about Time Lords which is required to operate a TARDIS correctly -- without blowing a hole in the universe the precise size of Belgium, presumably.

As for the TARDIS not being seen in the lake, it might have been deep enough that light did not penetrate; the angle at which River et al. were looking into the water did not let it be seen due to refraction; the TARDIS might have been set on invisible; or River might have sweet-talked the TARDIS into letting the chameleon circuit operate as it was meant to, instead of how she likes to appear.

All technological problems are soluble with powerful enough gobbledygook generators and a trip to the junk store. Boblipton 12:40, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

"As for the TARDIS not being seen in the lake": From what Icecreamdif said above, I don't think the idea is that the (Doctor's) TARDIS was in the lake but that one of the "TARDIS-like" ships belonging to the Silence was, or might have been, in the lake. In that case, it would certainly need to have been fully submerged, not merely slightly under the surface, but seeing an object under water isn't easy if you're looking at a shallow angle. Someone looking directly down from an aircraft would have a far better chance of seeing it.

"Apparently there is something about Time Lords which is required to operate a TARDIS correctly": That was the main plot point of The Two Doctors (1985). The Time Lords' "symbiotic nucleus" was needed to operate the ship the first time. After that, others could use it. --89.240.249.144 13:23, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

The Silences' TARDIS device may not work correctly. In The Lodger Doctor said that it was someones attempt to make a TARDIS. And it was having some major side-effects: time loops and disrupting the Doctor's TARDIS. He also said that he was too powerful for it, if he touched the control panel then it would blow up the entire solar system. Maybe Melody/River is a weak enough Time Lord to operate it safely. Maybe that was intentional, allow her to use it but not the Doctor.

This does not answer the question of why the Silence needed a space suit. Scuba gear would have been enough to get the doctor's killer through the lake.

Also, the Silence are scavengers, where did they get enough of a TARDIS to try and build one themselves when they need us to build them a space suit? Or was this attempted TARDIS stolen/scavenged from someone else? Brotherbard 21:29, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

The suit definetly wasn't just to get somebody through the lake. Melody was wearing it for at least 3 months, over 40 years before the Doctor was killed. The suit also had all sorts of random alien life support technology, so it wouldn't have just been to allow somebody to breathe underwater. The Silence could have talked an advanced race other than the Timelords to make the technology for them. We know from The Chase that the Timelords aren't the only species capable of making TARDIS-like space-time machines. It is possible that one of the Silence's TARDIS devices were on the beach, but there percception filters prevented anyone from noticing it.Icecreamdif 23:54, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

The Silences' TARDIS only seems to malfunction after its crash landing in 2010 (the lack of a time loop or other time problems shows this). However I will say that it is doughtful they built a TARDIS just to send someone to kill the Doctor so why build it?

As to the spacesuit perhaps it may be a way of makeing sure Melody didn't get found. What better way of imprisoning someone without fear of them being found than makeing the cell move on its own.--82.11.57.232 18:16, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

The communications ability of the suit argues against the theory that the suit was meant to prevent the girl being found. Giving her the means to contact the US President almost guaranteed that she would be found. --89.241.66.181 04:27, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Why is it doubtful that someone would build a TARDIS just to kill the Doctor. Did you see "A Good Man Goes To War"? (unsigned)

maybe that's why they made the doctor's tardis explode, so they could use the scrap created to design their own. only, it didn't go according to plan as the universe collapsed instead. also, the girl could be river, since she was brought back to earth to grow up in the right environment, so she was put in the 1960s. puting her then would be as likely as putting her in 3050s earth or 510s. that's why there is a picture of her and amy- it was taken on demons run, maybe by lorna bucket before AGMGTW takes place as lorna is nice to amy. then, when the silence found out she was part time lord, they kidnapped her and put her in the suit. to me, this seems like the most likely thing to have happened, but feel free to critique. 121.216.229.210 04:53, July 10, 2011 (UTC)

Lorna probably didn't take the picture since she just introduced herself to Amy in A Good Man Goes to War, but apart from that everything you said makes since and was heavily implied in the episodes.Icecreamdif 16:35, July 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the 1960s isn't exactly as likely as the 3050s or 510s for a couple reasons. Everyone knows that 1963 is a very important time period to the Doctor. And it's only a few decades from Amy and Rory's time. So, if you wanted to hide Melody Pond in time, 1960s Earth would be just about the worst place (except maybe 2011 Earth). Maybe someone wanted her hidden from the Doctor, but not too well hidden, because they were hoping she'd meet up with the Doctor a few years, or maybe a few decades, later? Or maybe the Silence just couldn't get to Earth history after 1969, for some reason they couldn't understand (but which is obvious to them after Day of the Moon)? --99.8.228.116 10:05, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

How is 1963 an important year for the Doctor?? It is obviously an important year for the show, as that is when it began, but the First Doctor only spent a couple of months at most in 63, and then returned years later in his seventh incarnation. If any time period is the most important to him, it would be the 70s or 80s when he was exiled to Earth, although now he spends most of his time in the 21st century now. The only reason that he found the girl at all was that Future-Doctor told Amy, Rory, and River to tell Past-Doctor to go to 69. If it hadn't been for that, the 60s would have been as good a hiding place as any.Icecreamdif 04:04, July 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1963 is when he picked up his first human companions and began the adventures that have made up the last 675 of his 909 years. Surely that would be important to him.


 * Meanwhile, his return in his 7th incarnation was pretty significant, given that it was the culmination of a centuries-long plot involving the Hand of Omega that he'd initiated before he even met Barbara and Ian, and that it may have been the ultimate cause of the Last Great Time War. And it's not the only time he's returned to 1963 (or to Foreman's Yard), even on TV. The 11th Doctor and Amy even went there in City of the Daleks. He was even documented as being in America in 1963 (see the photo of the 9th Doctor at the Kennedy assassination). Why is he still carrying a library card from 1963, giving his address as 76 Totter's Lane, as his ID? Meanwhile, if you include the novels, stories, and audios, it's even more significant. (Look at where Sam came from, when Fitz came from, and everything that he learned in Interference, for example.)


 * You're right that the UNIT era is also a significant time in the Doctor's life, or at least a dangerous time to try to hide from him. (The other ID he's pulled out is a UNIT ID giving a date where the third digit is unreadable.) But that just makes it worse, not better; just as 1963 is dangerous because it's only a few decades from Amy and Rory's time, it's dangerous because it's only a decade or two from the Brig's time. --99.40.53.116 09:31, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

They probably weren't thinking about in in that much depth though. The whole thing with the Hand of Omega is over now, so that wouldn't bring the Doctor back to 63, and in hundreds of years of space time travel, he's only visited that year a handful of times. Living a few decades before the Doctor's exile or the time his companions are from wouldn't make any differeence either. Even if he visited 1969, which he did in Blink, there are only two ways that he would have found out about the girl. He could either randomly wander into the Oval Office and overhear the girl's phone calls with Nixon, or a complicated time paradox could cause his older self to tell his friends to tell him to go to the Oval Office in 1969. Somehow, I don't think that the Church or the Silence foresaw that happening.Icecreamdif 17:59, July 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * If by the "they" who probably weren't thinking you mean the Church or Silence or whoever, I suspect you're 100% wrong. I doubt they chose the 1960s because they thought it was a safe place the Doctor would never run into her, or because they just didn't think about it in much depth. After all, 1963 is surely far less significant for the Church than it is for the Doctor. In fact, I think they explicitly wanted her and the Doctor to run into each other. Maybe they wanted it to happen around 2011, when she'd be old enough to do whatever she was designed for, but they wanted it to happen at some point.


 * On the other hand, if by "they" you meant the writers, I'm sure they did think it through; they put Melody Pond in the 1960s so the Doctor could find her in the 1960s because that made sense. (As a side note, I also suspect that someone involved with the series is rereading or remembering the EDAs and taking the coolest ideas and spinning them into interesting new contexts, so I'm going to reread Father Time before speculting too much more about Melody.) --173.228.85.118 02:38, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that the reason that they took Melody to the 60s had less to do with the Doctor, and more to do with the technology. I think that it is more likely that the Silence are behind everything that is going on, and they have just been post-hypnotically suggesting the Church to create a Timelord. They probably took her to the 60s, because they needed a space suit for her, and that was the earliest period in history that the Silence could persuade the Humans to create a space suit for them.Icecreamdif 04:15, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * But they're starting off with her in the 51st century, where spacesuits are probably available for pennies in retro clothing stores, so why go back to the 1960s? --173.228.85.118 04:26, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

The Silence may have wanted her in as early a period as possible. Maybe their influence had diminished by the 51st century. They had to raise her in the proper environment, and 51st century Earth would have been an awful place to hide her when the Doctor already knows that they are in the 51st century. It makes much more sense to travel back in time, as far as possible.Icecreamdif 04:31, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

OK, you're definitely right that the 51st century is obviously a terrible place to hide her. And maybe their influence diminished as humanity spread from one planet to thousands. But on the other hand, any era between Benny's and the 51st century has about one Doctor popping up per century instead of a couple per week, and those thousands of planets mean a lot more room to hide.

But maybe there's another explanation. The Silence don't actually have time travel, right? Why else would they be trying to create it? So, their plot, created in the 1960s, goes something like this: Feed all the best ideas they can dig up about time travel to the right scientists, and meanwhile implant the right suggestions with the right Anglican leaders, in hopes that at some point in the unknown and unknowable future, the Church will be able to kidnap Melody Pond and have enough access to rudimentary time travel to send her back to the 1960s. It's not about going as far back in possible, so much as the fact that they have no way of knowing if they'll even be around in the future (which of course turns out to be prophetic). The idea of a millennia-spanning time-travel plot being put together by people who have no idea how time travel works is actually kind of Moff-esque. --173.228.85.118 05:56, July 23, 2011 (UTC)