Tardis talk:Canon policy

Radical rewrite
This page underwent a major repurposing today. It is no longer the home of the actual list of allowed stories. Rather, it now serves as the basic explanation for how the BBC's lack of definition of canon affects the wiki. Importantly, it divorces discussion of canon from the actual list of allowed stories, which now can be found at tardis:valid sources.

The lengthy talk page that used to be here can now be found by clicking on the archive at right, and it has also been moved to forum:The original inclusion debates, so that it can easily be found in the forum archives. 00:27: Wed 06 Jun 2012


 * I fully approve of this rewrite effort, and some of my reasons can be found at Forum:Inclusion debate: Death Comes to Time. In fact, I think it might be good to include some of the background there (talking about Sherlock Holmes fans' "Great Game", and so forth) in this article. CzechOut, would you mind if I brought some of that here? I'd just do it anyway on the old "be bold" principle, but I don't want to step on your toes while you're doing such a major revision. —Josiah Rowe talk to me 03:31, June 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added this, somewhat belatedly. Feel free to edit mercilessly. —Josiah Rowe talk to me 02:34, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Canon. Says who?
I posted along ramble earlier which has now been archived. The gist of it was "If the BBC has never stated its position on what is/isn't canon, then how can people editing a fan website make such a declaration"? Someone here makes a point to the effect of "since the BBC hasn't, we must!" Which really smacks of arrogance and/or fanwankery. There are some key points here:

1)Contrary to what some people like tot think the current production team does have a policy. Without going into anal detail, they have clearly decided that the VNA don't fit into their continuity(looms, Human Nature etc etc etc). And, likewise that the PDA don't fit into their continuity(whither PDA #64). Sarah's comment about "Ace" also seems to disregard the DWM comics pre-2005. And then there's the Two Time Wars. Thus it can clearly(yes it can) be established that the current team's idea is that the tv show 1963-89, J9 and company and the 1996 movie ARE canon. As is everything from Rose onwards in all media. Anything else is safe to be contradicted.

2)But if we accept the PDA and EDA as canon, we are contradicting the canon of the present show. And again, very important one of the PDA is "Scream of the Shalka". Either all the PDA including this are canon, or none of the PDA or canon. However, in the EDA "Gallifrey Chronicles" it is mentioned that the Doctor has three possible Ninth incarnations. This does allow the Shalka, and thus the pDA and EDA to be canon, but in a parallel universe to the New Series and its spin-offs.

3)We thus are faced with clear choices. a)only the tv show is canon. b)The canon policy that is used by the current production team(mentioned above) is used. c)Using the BBC novels, BOTH Richard E. grant and Christopher Eccleston are the Ninth Doctor, just in alternate realities. d)Everything is canon, including Cushing, Grant, the annuals, the merchandise "histories" etc. Since the BBC hasn'y stated their canon policy, who are some internet fans to decide on it for them, and then use that as a rigid rule?

Personally, I'd suggest the articles be structured that only the tv information is in the main body. And then underneath ALL relevant information be listed, whatever medium, but with notes indicating where they are contradictory. And, importantly, NO official proclamation that one medium is somehow superior to another(like the idiots who claim that No Future somehow decanonises the FASA game. How is one "superior" to the other??).


 * Well, as you can see the Canon policy page has recently been rewritten. The wiki now makes no claims, by policy, about what is or isn't canonical Doctor Who, or that one medium is superior to another. There may be some stray remarks here and there which need to be edited or removed to fit this policy; if you come upon them, as they say on Wikipedia,.


 * You are of course, right that the current production team treats licensed material such as the novels and comics differently than it treats television stories, but I'm not sure that the difference amounts to an actual "canon policy" on the part of the production team. First of all, they'd never use that word. Second, they're just as willing to contradict a past TV story as a past book — otherwise we'd never have gotten from "You can't rewrite history! Not one line!" to "Time can be rewritten!" The difference is that when they're contradicting past TV stories, they usually use a throwaway line to patch up the discontinuity, something they don't bother to do when contradicting the books.


 * Now, you can say that by abandoning the word "canon" and shifting to a valid sources policy, we're trying to have it both ways: we don't make canonical claims, but we still get to draw lines about what does and doesn't "count". But that's just an inevitable part of the game we're playing here, trying to make a single coherent fictional universe out of nearly 50 years of stories by hundreds of different writers. When we list valid sources here, we're not making any claim about Doctor Who as a whole. You can still say that the Master and the Monk were the same person if you like. We're just saying which sources we're going to use here.


 * If you'd prefer to play the game by different rules, you can either try to convince the rest of the editors here in the Panopticon (though I doubt you'll get very far), or you can start up your own Doctor Who wiki using different rules (TV only or whatever you please). But here, the most active editors have mostly agreed on what we're going to count in our version of the "game". We have no objection to other people playing with different rules, but these are the rules we've decided on here, and it'll take a lot of effort to convince enough editors to make the change you're suggesting.


 * We've been discussing that "game" here, if you'd care to join us. But if you do, please sign your posts by typing four tildes, like so: ~ . That'll produce a signature and timestamp. Thanks! —Josiah Rowe talk to me 19:01, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but that is quite frankly nonsense. You admit that the BBC hasn't ruled on which(if any spin-offs) count. You admit that the makers of the tv show from 2005 onwards have disregarded certain spin-offs. You admit that there is no hierarchy of the spin-offs. Then....you say "but we here have our version of canon so that's that we're using!" Well, whatever. There was nothing remotely radical about what I proposed. This site needs to decide whether it's a Doctor Who wiki, or just a wiki devoted to a small group of Doctor Who fanboys with a unique take on "canon". If it's the latter then things are fine the way they are. If it's the former the "canon policy" needs a major overhaul ASAP. 41.132.116.62talk to me 06:47, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * 41.132 from your earlier post.


 * Prove that the current production team does have a policy. This proof must be from a valid source. You state that they "clearly decided that VNA don't fit their continuity".


 * From what I can tell, your argument seems to stem from this observation, that because there is this contradiction then therefore all of the stuff that's contradicted shouldn't be included. Or that anything said in a later story be that 1964 or 2004 which contradicts another piece of information from earlier means it should be disregarded. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:38, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

That is taking the main point off on a tangent. The main point is that, as this site insists, there is no official canon policy, then who is anyone here to declare something "non-canonical" or a "non-DWU adventure"? Yes, the clear contradiction between the New Series and the Virgin books(as an example) was from the power of observation. But then all the differences this site uses to de-canonise various adventures also comes from observation. And, if stories take superiority over guidebooks etc. the entire thrust of "canon" here is totally meaningless AND contradictory. Quite a feat. And just because something doesn't "git in with the DWU continuity", it must be "non-canon" is absurd on multiple levels. Since the current continuity uses the early 70's dating for UNIT The Web Of Fear and The Invasion must therefore be non-canon. Since we witnessed the destruction of the Earth in the New Series, then The Ark must be non-canon. Since Davros is now an integral part of Dalek history, then The Daleks(the first story) must be non-canon. And on and on it goes. And yet, recognising that two stories contain contradictory contnuity is achieved through....observation! The same thing you make a big deal out of. If one book states one thing, and another book states something else, we have to observe the difference. Then, of course, who is to say one book is "right" and one is "Wrong"? So deeming ANYTHING "non-canon" or "non-DWU adventure" is entirely a POV and quite frankly retarded.41.132.116.62talk to me 16:04, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

To add to this, there was a lot of stuff that was regarded as official, yet appears to(observation) have been contradicted. As an obvious example, The Daleks was meant to be a self-contained story, yet the Daleks have returned a few times since then. Likewise, the VNA were meant to be the official continuation post-Survival, yet various facts in the subsequent tv stories(as well as the audios, comics and other books) can clearly be observed to contradict these books. In 2003 Richard E grant's "Shalka" Doctor was clearly meant to be the official Ninth Doctor(and the BBC book The Legend states as such), yet the New Series states that Eccleston is. And yet simple observation sees the New Series wildly contradicting the Classic Series. Then there's the whole "half-human" thing which in 1996 was clearly meant to be the official continuity. So, what it boils down to is this...one person states something is real/official/canon. Someone else states something else is real/official/canon. The BBC takes no stand either way. Anyone with any powers of observation sees the two things can not exist in the same so-called "Whoniverse" or "Doctor Who Universe"(both of which are unofficial fanwank terms btw). Sadly, the two most frequent solutions are either to go for the "total" Who continuity(ala the Compleat Adventures), or to choose one specific continuity, declare that "Canon"(on whose authority?!) and declare supposedly everything that doesn't fit into that a "non-DWU adventure). While both are flawed, the former is better as it doesn't set some internet fans up as "authoritie" on what is or isn't "canon", and what is or isn't a "DWU adventure". The continuity changes all the time, depending on the writer of that particular story you're experiencing right now. And it is all canon. 41.132.116.62talk to me 16:41, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, we've arrived at this policy through lengthy discussion.
 * I picked that main point because the rest of your argument was split from that main point.
 * I'm not going to argue any of your points that lead from that. So I went back to your primary argument. Your observation I noted was of actual actions in the real world, you were it seemed interpreting what the production team has done.
 * Observations of a narrative are...well that's what you do, you read, watch, listen to the narrative and make observations.
 * Canon is a convenient umbrella term that covers the concept of "what we cover on this wiki". Don't get bogged down on the term canon. We're not imposing on anyone's personal idea of canon. We're just stating what we cover in order to manage this wiki effectively. We've got pages like the Tardis:Valid sources to cover questions like this. --Tangerineduel / talk 17:14, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

But that is very subjective. We need to look at things logically and rationally. BBC Television makes a programme called "Doctor Who". We can get into the fact that the show itself is riddled with continuity errors(UNIT Dating, Atlantis, The Doctor's age, being half-human etc. etc.) but we don't need to go into that here. In addition to making the show the BBC also produces Doctor Who spin-off tv(eg. Torchwood), Doctor Who audios, Doctor Who Books(both fiction and guides). Even these often contradict the tv show. But then we get to the main point here. The BBC licenses out the rights to produce original Doctor Who fiction to non-BBC companies. Since these are all NOT the BBC, and are using valid licences, who is to say that one is "more right" than another? I used the FASA/No Future example for a specific reason. That at the time of the FASA game's release it didn't contradict anything. In fact it still doesn't contradict the tv show one bit. What it does contradict is a book(again a licensed novel) released many years later. And that book itself contradicts the tv show.

But that is really not the main point. The main point is this....the BBC has licensed out the rights to Doctor Who to various companies over the years(IDW, World Distributors, Telos Publishing, Marvel, Virgin Books, Target Books, Big Finish Audios...well you get the idea). None of these companies are the BBC, yet every one of them was making officially licensed Doctor Who fiction. The fact that one group may have chosen for their officially licensed Doctor Who fiction to be a retelling of a classic tv serial on the big screen(Cushing of course) does absolutely not mean that it is any less "real" than another company trying to make stories that could fit seamlessly into the tv show. Because neither is "Real" in the way that the tv show is. They are both licensed spin-offs. And again, the thv show itself is full of contradictions that only the worst kind of fanwankery can explain. Whether it's the World Distributors Annuals. The Pescatons LP, the Virgin Novels, the Big Finish Montjly Line, the Peter Cushing movies, the TV Comics or whatever...it's all the same. Officially licensed Doctor Who fiction that the BBC are under no obligation to be consistent with. The fact that, as an example, 'Phantasmagoria' could slot into the tv continuity while, say, 'The Night Walkers' couldn';t is neither here no there. And the tv show may very well do something that makes it impossible for Phantasmagoria to do so. Then there's the fact that Mission To Magnus was specifically written for the tv show, and has since been ofccially adapted as both a book and an audio(with the original cast). And yet, comments in 'Mindwarp' mean that Magnus doesn't fit into the tv continuity. Then there's the whole "Which Shada if any is canon?"

But this can all be disregarded. ANY official Doctor Who fiction/product is canon. because there is no way anyone, even Ian Levine, could tie it all together into one continuity. And anyone who claims that one spin-off(whether book, audio, comic whatever) is "part of the Whoniverse" while another is "a non-DWU adventure" needs their head examined. 41.132.116.62talk to me 18:02, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm now a little confused at your mention again of the FASA material. In short narrative are what we use to build the in-universe elements of this wiki.
 * That is how we use information on this wiki, along with other policies it's how we decide what's included and what isn't. Again, have you read the Tardis:Valid sources article? Four little rules in very big font.
 * Again I'm confused at why you're discussing contradictions in the narrative in your second paragraph.   See T:VS. The BBC was never under any obligation to be consistent with any of its Doctor Who production, the TV series especially is not consistent.
 * Finally. Fine. Disregard it, personally. We are not telling you or anyone who's reading this wiki what to believe, we're just saying this is how we cover it and these are the rules and polices we've arrived at. It's a decision based on countless discussions with people who edit frequently on this wiki. --Tangerineduel / talk 05:08, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

You're nitpicking small details. Any specific item was simply an example. The big picture is that you constantly state that "the BBC has never made any pronouncement on canon". You agree that all licensed spin-offs are equal, and that the tv show is under no obligation to be consistent with any licensed spin-off, You also agree that the tv show itself is full of continuity errors.

And yet, because of "lengthy discussion" we now have a "canon policy" where some stories are part of "the Doctor Who Universe" and others are not part of "the Doctor Who Universe". In addition certain officially licensed spin-offs are valid sources, while other equally official licensed spin-offs are not. And you fail to recognise how completely absurd this all is...tagging certain official(in some cases even BBC-produced) stories as "non-DWU adventures". Whatever policy this wiki has (vs, canon policy, lengthy discussions, whatever) it will fail, as there is no single "Doctor Who Universe", and there can never be. The other quite frankly ludicrous thing is the "Timeline". ie 'This story occurs before/after [x]'. The only things where that works is with tv stories, and where the spin-offs actually say that(eg. with the Big Finish stories). Even then they completely fail to fit into a single "DWU continuity" or whatever you call it.

My main pint is this:if it's an officially licensed Doctor Who story it's canon. Period. Whether it fits into "the continuity" is irrelevant, because even the tv show by itself has no single continuity. Dismissing officially licensed Doctor Who stories or products as "non-DWU" because of "discussion" is wrong. 41.132.116.62talk to me 05:42, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Depends on your point of view.
 * I and other admins (and other frequent editors) manage this. So it's not absurd at all. It's manageable.
 * As we've said the BBC hasn't made a statement on a canon for Doctor Who, just licensing.
 * Officially licensed Doctor Who and canon are separate things.
 * Discussion is how decisions are made on wikis, it's a community discussion. As with our inclusion policy, you can believe that it's wrong.
 * But we don't. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:11, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

No they aren't. If it's an official product it's canon. However, it may necessarily fit into the continuity, which is something completely separate from canon. The Peter Cushing movies are canon. Scream of the Shalka is canon. Doctor Who Unbound is canon. But none of them fit into the current continuity. I say current because the continuity itself changes all the time. Not just in-universe, by timey-wimey stuff or whatever. But because the production team of the time have certain ideas about what Doctor Who is and what it should be. So Innes LLoyds' idea or Barry Letts' or John Nathan-Turner's or whoever's will be different to Steven Moffat's. And the next producer may very well set out to make a show as different as possible both in style and in content as the current era. In addition, many of the official spin-offs were never "edited" or "produced" ala the tv show, so you could(and frequently did!) have authors deliberately inserting their own pet fanboy theories into stories, or even writing stories that deliberately screwed with established continuity. Thus, there is no such thing as "Canon" in the sense that you are using the term. Whether "We do" think it exists, it doesn't, "discussion" or not.

There are two separate issues here:

a)A television show called "Doctor Who" which should (but doesn't necessarily) have a self-contained consistent continuity.

b)All the officially licensed(ie legal) Doctor Who products produced by anyone with a proper legal right to make them. Thus, a Target book, a Big Finish audio, a Cushing movie, and IDW comic, or information on a Doctor Who chocolate wrapper are all equally canon. A novel written by someone connected with the show, and the "information" on a Cyberman action figure written by some who doesn't know Telos from Traken are both canon. Even if one may be consistent with the tv show, and one is way off. Because if it's an official Doctor Who product it's canon. You may not think that. But it's true. It's damn true. 41.132.116.62talk to me 16:13, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * As I've said you're free to think that. But there is no concrete proof of a connection between canon and licensing. That may be the position of other wikis and other series/licences.
 * But that's not what the policy of this wiki is. --Tangerineduel / talk 16:38, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

There is no concrete proof of anything. However let's play simple logic.

a)The BBC have never stated what is or isn't canon.

b)All sorts of official Doctor Who stories have appeared as books, comics, audios etc. Many contradict each other. But see a)

c)The only way that a certain type of fan can comprehend this is the fan-created idea of a Whoniverse. The next step is fanwankery such as "Season 6b" or the idea that clones of the Master were created after Survival.(why?!) It makes me shudder just typing this

d)Certain things contradict each other. Eg. the comics and the Big Finish Audios, the VNA and BBC Books, the VNA and the comics.....and yet we have things like Fribisher in BBC Books, Bernice Summerfield and Izzy in the BFA etc,

e)AT the time many products were created there was no question of them "not being canon". Largely because such a concept didn't exist. And yet that's what we are told today. As an obvious example, early TV Comics and World Distributor Annuals unambiguously state that the Doctor is from Earth. And yet, that isn't in the continuity. Likewise the Cushing movies were stated as being another(future or past) incarnation of the Doctor etc.

f)Likewise the dreaded retconning. Eg at the time of Morbius those other faces 'were the Doctor. But it was later stated that they weren't. And thank God that Lungbarrow never became a tv story that that "loom" nonsense. And yet Lungbarrow became an officially licensed book, with that loom crap. Despite the numerous references to families, and Time Lords being children.

Now, we can either go point-by-point making an "inclusion policy" that "We" "discuss" should be included(but this would often mean literally going line-by-line through tv episodes). Or we can accept that since the BBC makes no pronouncement about any of the spin-offs, and it's all officially-licensed Doctor Who...well you work it out. 41.132.116.62talk to me 16:55, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Good. Okay. We agree. No concrete proof. Hence, our policies.
 * Nothing you've so far said disagrees with our polices, though you seem to have mis-interpreted some things.
 * Narratives are the things that are important whether they're contradictory or not. I won't repeat the rest but it's in our valid sources policy that I've mentioned above.
 * We've already had a majority of the discussions concerning this policy in order to arrive at the policy. These are rules for the wiki. As I've said you seem to have your opinion of this and that's fine, but this is what the wiki is doing. --Tangerineduel / talk 17:07, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, what I've said disagrees with your policies. Specifically the idea of stories being "non-canon" or "non-DWU adventures". And "narratives"in the sense og Doctor Who is totally subjective and personal, as we all know.

You say you've had "a majority of the discussions" implying there is stuff said here that hasn't been raised before. And, in a quick recap, how did it arrive at the policy that certain stories are "DWU" while others aren't?

Of course, the "no concrete proof" statement was that there is no concrete proof that stories that this site treats as being non-DWU have been designated as such by the BBC, or anyone else, NOT "no concrete proof" that all officially licensed Doctor Who stories are canon. Since the BBC has never made a pronouncement on that. You are deliberately twisting words around, taking things out of context and misinterpreting what has been said in order to suit your own ideas. Maybe you should try writing an updated Discontinuity Guide? 41.132.116.62talk to me 17:53, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * There are links to the various inclusion discussions we've had on the valid sources page.
 * See Whoniverse Discontinuity Guide for an online discontinuity guide that covers stories following the original book's publication. --Tangerineduel / talk 18:01, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Anon, your objections have some validity, but the problem is a practical one. It's just not possible to include all licensed Doctor Who material, because some of it — a small minority, mind you — contradicts the vast majority of other Doctor Who material so blatantly that it's just not possible to write an "in-universe" article including it all. For example, if you're writing an article about the Dalek occupation of Earth, would you say that it was averted when the Doctor (a Time Lord who had stolen a TARDIS) diverted a bomb to blow up the Daleks' saucer, or when Dr. Who (a human scientist who had invented a time machine called Tardis) used the magnetic properties of the Earth to draw all the Daleks and their ship towards the centre of the Earth? Daleks' Invasion Earth 2150 A.D. was a fully licensed story at the time of its creation, but it's just not compatible with television Doctor Who as part of the same fictional universe.


 * We've been trying to get away from using the term "canon", because it really doesn't have any meaning with regard to Doctor Who, as Paul Cornell so convincingly argued. We freely admit that what we're doing here, the lines we draw between what is and isn't part of the "Doctor Who universe", are completely subjective, and that anybody is free to accept or reject them. We have, and claim, no authority. That's why the notdwu template begins with the sentence, "You can believe that this subject is part of the Doctor Who universe."

If we put a notdwu template on top of the Scream of the Shalka (webcast) page, we're not saying that it's in any way inferior to any other Doctor Who story. We're just saying that if we're trying to write an article about the biography of the Master, we aren't going to talk about the time when he was trapped in an android body inside the TARDIS. And there's nothing wrong with that.
 * What we're doing here — creating an encyclopedia for everything that's ever happened in Doctor Who, and connecting it all together as if it were a single narrative — has nothing to do with the concept of "canon", really. It's just a game, a version of what Cornell described thus:"There is, of course, and I wouldn’t want to put a stop to this, an entirely benign sort of canonicity discussion, in which a writer, such as Lance Parkin, enters into a game of where and how everything might fit together, if it did. That’s just fun, and the authority assumed is only that of a stage magician, because the intention isn’t to hurt anyone."


 * By the way, if you really want to see all the previous discussions on this, most of them are here. The oldest ones, which began on this page, are now here. Frankly, it's pretty tedious reading, but that's how we got to where we are today. —Josiah Rowe talk to me 22:20, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

But the problem is, if you're doing a biography of The Master, then even the period between 'Survival' and 'The TV Movie' has at least 4 very different scenarios, no two of which can be reconciled. Likewise, a biography of Ace would have to have her dying in an explosion, yet growing up to become a Time Lord while running a charity on Earth. A biography on Sil would need him to not meet the Doctor or Peri between 'Vengeance On Varos' and 'Mindwarp', while at the same time meeting them during 'Mission To Magnus'(which is between Varos and Mindwarp). An article on UNIT would need the organisation to have been formed no earlier than 1975, while at the same time having a golden age that "spanned the 60's,,,". And a biography on the Doctor himself would have him regenerating into his seventh incarnation at the age of 953, celebrating his 1000th birthday as Number Seven, and then spending more than 700 years in his 8th incarnation, only to be 900 in his 9th incarnation, and about 1103 in his 11th!

Simply, there is no main continuity as such. As stated above, new writers introduce new ideas of the show as they see it. This often totally contradicts even what was on tv the year before.Attempting to fit it all together into a single narrative is impossible. The only way is to exclude "things that don't fit", what "we don't thin" is part of "the DWU". However, as noted in some cases this means that even certain lines of dialogue from "The Daleks" would have to be removed. Or the Rani's code in 'Time and the Rani" would have to be ignored. Or people saying offensive things like "professor Travers was old, and therefore forgetful". Or Sarah "rounded up" when she said 1980. Or worst of all, creating insane fanwank fanfic to "fill in" areas. One of the worst being the aforementioned idea that after Survival a whole group of Master clones were created. Simply put, even ignoring the spin-offs, the tv show itself can not be placed in a single coherent narrative. I mean we can watch all the episodes/recons in order, but from an in-universe perspective, it's impossible for it all to fit together like that. Unless, of course the Doctor's travels change the past, in which case all the "non-DWU" adventures could also have taken place in altered timelines. And who's to say which timelines still exist "now" and which don't? 41.132.116.62talk to me 07:22, June 30, 2012 (UTC)