Howling:Weeping Angels - Time Lord Evolutionary Ancestors ?

EPISODE: The End Of Time

SCENE: Rassilon's monologue after the Council of Time Lords vote and before his and Gallifrey's return to our universe.

QUOTE: "The vote is taken. Only two stand against. And will stand as monument to their shame! [Like] the Weeping Angels of old."

NOTE: The two female Time Lords flank Rassilon with their hands over their faces. During The Doctor's indecision to shoot and kill either Rassilon or The Master, one uncovers her face a moment and is weeping; she is the same one appearing to the human [Wilfred].

WIKI: Weeping Angel

Sirald66 ☎  08:57, December 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Quote correction: "*LIKE the Weeping Angels of old."
 * Source "Blink": "[The Weeping Angels] are as old as the Universe, or very nearly."
 * Conclusion: As the Weeping Angels are at least as old as Gallifreyans, or probably older, they are considered to be "of old" as in "of olden times" by one such as Rassilon, and are clearly not held in the highest regard. To liken the two dissenting Time Lords to them is meant to be a demeaning insult to their dignity, not to suggest anything genetic, if that's what you were suggesting. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 06:51, November 29, 2013 (UTC)

The quote is "The Weeping Angels of old". The word LIKE is not in there - The End of Time, Part 2 (Full Episode); 00:36:55

Yes, I am suggesting they are ancestors. In fact, that has just given me the idea that the Timelord headdress shield looks like rising wings.....

Sirald66 ☎  18:52, November 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, the word "like" is part of the quote. And it's the only thing that makes sense: he's comparing the women (their posture) to the Weeping Angels of old. Shambala108 ☎  04:34, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

The word "like" may be in some other edit or script, but if you listen to this one (BBC America) with your eyes closed, the words "like" or "as" (that some have suggested) are not spoken. Will have to wait for others to listen and weigh in.

Sirald66 ☎  06:46, November 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's barely audible, as Rassilon says it under his breath, but there is clearly a syllable between "shame" and "the Weeping Angels". (I'm listening to the version I bought off iTunes, and it's clearly there. I also heard it in the version linked.) —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 16:24, November 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * That syllable is definitely there (Region 2 DVD, headphones) & is almost certainly "like", not "as". However, even if there were no word there, the speech would still not mean what Sirald66 is straining to make it mean. All it can be taken to mean is that even Rassilon (no spring chicken himself) considers the Weeping Angels to be very old. Sirald66's conclusion is invention, not inference.


 * Of course, even if the "like" were as clearly audible as the rest of the speech, that wouldn't get in the way of a future scriptwriter who decided to take this invention & run with it. There's just nothing in the speech either way about a genetic connection between the Weeping Angels & the Time Lords.


 * At the moment, however, there's no reason to think there is any such connection. --89.243.202.128talk to me 22:43, November 30, 2013 (UTC)

Apologies and appreciation to Bionic and Shambala; I had to download an HD copy and crank up the audio equalizer to hear the muted word. Its just not pronounced clearly. Thank you for engaging me in clarity.

Now, consider that calling someone 'like a Neanderthal' could also be an attempt at insult by associating to a less evolved hominid. Kind of the whole point I brought this up. I'm just tossing ideas around for us to ponder, part of what I thought Howling was for.

Has anyone seen this full debate run its course before? Link would be good.

Ok, now a step closer to the edge. Could The Silence be related in some way to Time Lords and/or Weeping Angels? It appeared the Weeping Angels absorbed massive time energy when the time rift was open; The Silence have a quantum aspect to themselves, immense body energy, time travel technology and keep ranting about "Silence will fall". The 3D painting in Day Of The Doctor was suggested by the 4th Doctor that the title is "Gallifrey Falls No More". Gallifrey is in timelock, it is silent; it may be its silence will fall, not Gallifrey.

Sirald66 ☎  08:57, December 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * I see your point about the use of the word "like", but basically what I got from the scene is that the two women were being punished for disagreeing, and their position matched that of the Angels. I'm not even sure Rassilon is comparing them to the Angels beyond their body positions. Given that it's a Davies script, I wouldn't be surprised if we never hear about this again, though as 89 said, some future writer may bring it up.


 * As for the Silence and the Angels, I think this story is still ongoing, so we'll just have to wait and see what Moffat intends. Not to derail the thread, but I still see a lot of unresolved issues with this story; hopefully he will clear those up. Shambala108 ☎  15:27, December 1, 2013 (UTC)

Sirald66: "Now, consider that calling someone 'like a Neanderthal' could also be an attempt at insult by associating to a less evolved hominid." It wouldn't be much of an insult, if the Neanderthal were like Nimrod in Ghost Light. In most departments, he was well ahead of the H. sapiens around him -- apart from Ace, of course. --89.241.221.240talk to me 05:34, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Another thought, possibly even less relevant: "Your name's 'Mumble, James Mumble'?" --89.241.221.240talk to me 05:51, December 3, 2013 (UTC)