User talk:120d

'''Welcome to the Thanks for your edits! We hope you'll keep on editing with us. This is a great time to have joined us, because now you can play the Game of Rassilon with us and win cool stuff! Well, okay, badges. That have no monetary value. And that largely only you can see. But still: they're cool!

We've got a couple of important quirks for a Wikia wiki, so let's get them out of the way first. British English, please We generally use British English round these parts, so if you're American, please be sure you set your spell checker to BrEng, and take a gander at our spelling cheat card. Spoilers aren't cool We have a strict definition of "spoiler" that you may find a bit unusual. Basically, a spoiler, to us, is anything that comes from a story which has not been released yet. So, even if you've got some info from a BBC press release or official trailer, it basically can't be referenced here. In other words, you gotta wait until the episode has finished its premiere broadcast to start editing about its contents. Please check the spoiler policy for more details. Other useful stuff Aside from those two things, we also have some pages that you should probably read when you get a chance, like:
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Upcoming releases
Hi! Please don't post any information about upcoming releases. This is a violation of Tardis:Spoiler policy. Thanks! Shambala108 ☎  19:04, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Eleventh Doctor
Hi! Please do not add a "fun facts" section to articles. If it's a valid point, there will be a place for it. Shambala108 ☎  23:24, November 28, 2013 (UTC)

Block
Please don't personally attack people as you did at Thread:145998, because such attacks obligate me to block you, as made perfectly explicit at Tardis:No personal attacks. The fact that you apologised on Digifiend's page was a positive action on your part, and so the block will be considerably less than it might have been. I'm going to have to ask — well, okay, compel — you to take a break for 72 hours. When you come back, please remember that it's Christmas, the season of good will towards others.

Also, please remember when you leave a message on someone's talk page to sign your post with four tildes, like this: text more text lots of text ~ 16:43: Sun 15 Dec 2013

Countdown clock
The countdown clock is a bit of code from w:c:dev:countdown. Instructions are there. 23:54: Tue 01 Jul 2014

Spoiler policy
This is now the second time you have been warned about violating Tardis:Spoiler policy. Please read it immediately, and for good measure, read the warning on the wiki's front page regarding the early showings of series 8 episodes. Shambala108 ☎  00:16, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not a spoiler. If you are talking about the episode name itself, then that has been confirmed. If you are talking about the trailer, it was released on the Doctor Who YouTube channel here: 

Since it is a trailer, there is very little probability that it will be in the episode. - 120d


 * Read the spoiler policy before you try to argue that this info is not a spoiler. While you're at it, also read Tardis:Video policy. I've removed your video link because we never allow off-site links to videos. Shambala108 ☎  00:42, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * The rules seem to be a bit hazy on videos because it states that links to videos on user name spaces, like this one are allowed. However, it says to videos you have created. I am not entirely sure that you should have deleted the link. Things like this should really be clarified better. It doesn't really say anything about links for spoiler videos in either the spoilers section or the links section. For the info on the Eleventh Doctor, again the info is not very clear on the Spoiler policy. It says "A spoiler is any information — in-universe or behind-the-scenes — coming from a story which has not yet been officially released in its entirety." "Information" is the key word, is it all information or is it just plot? Since it is a voice over and about 10% of the time has a voice over actually been in the episode, I think that it should be allowed. However, I will not continue to fight and start an edit war, if you agree to allow this information after the episode is released. Rufus 01:03, August 10, 2014 (UTC) 120d

Per the video policy, non-admin users may not upload videos at all. That trumps the rest of the policy. Further down, it says you cannot link to off-site videos; you can only upload videos you created, but that doesn't include recording of copyright material. Most importantly, no images or videos for unreleased stories can be uploaded, period, end of sentence.

As for the spoiler policy, I don't know how it can be made more clear. It says any information from an unreleased story. The first episode of series 8 has not yet been released, so no information from it can be added to the wiki.

Off-topic, you will need to fix your user signature. All signatures must have links to the user page and user talk page (see Tardis:Signature Policy). Shambala108 ☎  01:21, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * First, you should worry about people's signatures. I am pretty sure that you don't need to link to your user page on your own talk page because it is linked in a tab above. Also, there are a lot of policies.


 * Second, do you agree to allow the information after the premiere date of  (I mean the official, not a few days ago.) 10:45, August 10, 2014 (UTC) 120d

Re:Images
It's not my job (or any other admin's) to chase after users who upload images without reading through our policies. That being said, I usually try to inform users when they've violated an image policy, but I was too busy trying to keep your spoilers off the wiki (which is a far more serious issue).

The thing is, many of our basic policies are located at the top of a user's talk page, and the license policy is part of the upload process. You didn't read it, so you made a mistake. Many users do, and now you know what to do. However, I suggest you read our image policies thoroughly (you can find them all at Thread:148148), because your Peter Butterworth image is not widescreen, which is required for all images. Shambala108 ☎  01:21, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * First, I think that I should point out, that I am not for spoilers at all. I am completely against them, the reason I added the information was because it was available. Second, did you read all of the policies before editing? Third, there are two problems with the last sentence in your message. 1. I do not own the film in which it came from, as I said before on your talk page, it came from his Wikipedia article. 2. I don't even know what movie it came from. If I did, I would probably have found a better quality image of it. The only reason I know it came from is because of the licensing on the image on Wikipedia. In other words, there is no way for me to have gotten a widescreen image. Since he died in the 1990s, there is little possibility that the movie even comes in wide screen. Rufus 10:56, August 10, 2014 (UTC) 120d

Summing up
I'm starting a new topic to cover the different issues raised on your page.


 * Please read the spoiler policy thoroughly. You have continually violated it by repeatedly posting the title of the first series 8 episode. This is your last warning regarding this issue.


 * Please read the image policies. We have reasons for wanting images to be widescreen. If you can't find a widescreen image, or crop an existing image, then don't post it.


 * To sum up the video policy, you cannot ever link to a video off-site. The only videos you can upload have to be your creation, and they can only appear on your user page and talk page.


 * Your signature violates policy by not linking back to both your user and talk pages. Right now it only links to your user page, but it must also link to your talk page. If it's a customized signature, you need to fix it. If you are using the four tildes as your signature, it's somehow not showing up properly and you need to mention that here.


 * Yes we have a lot of policies but we are a big wiki. It is every user's responsibility to read policies. Period. I have spent a lot of time trying to explain page-long policies to you, but you don't seem interested in reading them. If you want to successfully edit here without your edits being removed, read the policies.

Finally, it's the custom on this wiki (and apparently on other wikis too), when someone posts a message on your talk page, you respond on their talk page. This way, they get a message saying you've responded. When you responded on your talk page, I didn't even know you had responded. If you had responded on my talk page, I would get a little notification sign in the corner of my screen as well as an email. Then I would know you had responded to my post. Thanks. Shambala108 ☎  01:55, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

Block
Sorry, I have to block you. You apparently have not read the policies I have quoted above, but you think that it's not necessary to follow them. Tardis:You are bound by current policy says that we all have to follow the policies, whether we agree with them or not. Admins are allowed certain actions that help to enforce the policies, such as removing information that violates Tardis:Spoiler policy.

Your block will last for a month to give you time to not only read our policies, but observe them in action during the time that new episodes approach and air. Then maybe you will have an understanding of how we view spoilers and how we deal with them. Shambala108 ☎  01:20, August 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * I did read all of the policies. Do not just claim something that you do not know is true. This is completely unfair. I stopped breaking your rules. You cannot block someone for breaking rules he or she didn't break. You are abusing your powers. Rufus 22:34, August 12, 2014 (UTC) 120d


 * My mistake. I assumed you kept breaking the spoiler policy because you hadn't read the policy. Now I understand that you kept breaking the spoiler policy in spite of having read the policy. The block stands.


 * You are of course free to visit Help:I'm blocked and follow the instructions on that page. Shambala108 ☎  20:16, August 13, 2014 (UTC)

Responding to your points
Responding to the numbered points you left on my talk page: Basically, we are a big wiki and we have a lot of rules. If we didn't, we would have chaos and a crappy wiki. The rules help us maintain what is probably the most useful source of DWU material on the internet. No one agrees with all the rules, but if we wish to edit here, we must abide by them. I hope you understand this. Shambala108 ☎  01:45, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * By this wiki's definition, an episode title is a spoiler. That is why I removed it.
 * Admins can remove any content from any page if it violates a policy. (see Tardis:Other people's user pages) The spoiler policy is one of the most important policies on the wiki.
 * Someone breaking the rules/policies is the only legitimate reason for removing content from their pages.
 * We have lots of image policies, and there are reasons for all of them. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they aren't valid.
 * I am not the ruler of this wiki, but I am an admin, which means my main job is to enforce policies. Few of the other admins are actively editing, which is why it looks like I'm the only in charge, but trust me, they are there.
 * I hate to throw more rules at you, but calling people names is a violation of Tardis:No personal attacks, which is probably the most important rule on this wiki. So when you are no longer blocked, please remember not to call other users names just because you disagree with them.
 * Kudos for fixing your signature, and for replying on my talk page instead of your own.


 * First, please start numbering in the future. It makes it easier for me.


 * Second, The second sentence in your last point is false. Just because a lot of people might contribute doesn't mean that you need a lot of rules.


 * Third, did anyone (non-admins) vote on these policies?


 * Fourth, I still think that you are taking this out of hand. Also, why did you give me a month block. This is my second block and I am pretty sure that a month is a bit long for a block.

Rufus 22:56, August 12, 2014 (UTC) 120d


 * Re your first point, no thank you.
 * Re your second point, when I say big wiki, I mean the amount of material, not the number of contributors.
 * Re your third point, yes everyone is able to contribute whenever a policy discussion is under way. Once a policy is enacted, everyone is bound to follow it, even if they didn't discuss/vote on it.
 * Re your fourth point, the month-long block is to allow you to see how we handle spoilers during an active season. Maybe seeing it in action will convince you how serious we are about the spoiler policy. Shambala108 ☎  20:16, August 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * First, that is kind of rude and I would like a reason for not using numbering.
 * Third, Okay.
 * Fourth, I feel that a month is/was way too long, especially since it was only going to be a few weeks until it premiered.
 * Fifth, I completely apologize for my behavior. I did not know that it was in the episode. I will never assume that something is not in an episode again. Can you please unblock me so that I can appropriately edit on this wiki? I was thinking about adding a page called "The Promise Land", if it is not created by the time you read this.

Rufus 08:11, August 26, 2014 (UTC) 120d

Sorry, although I do appreciate your apology, the block stands. You basically admitted you had read the spoiler policy but still posted spoilers. The month-long block is to give you a chance to see how we treat spoilers during an actual season/series. In addition, blocks for violating Tardis:Spoiler policy are usually longer than a month, and sometimes are permanent, so in my opinion you got off easy. Shambala108 ☎  16:49, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * How about until the end of August? I will have spent a majority of the block. It will only be 12 days left. For you to not let me go is to be the prison warden who doesn't let the person go even though they posted bail. I both apologized and waited until the episode aired. I should also note, you were the person who assumed I was guilty of a crime, even though I technically didn't break any laws. It is more that I accidentally did a crime, instead of blatantly just doing it. In other words, It was not technically a spoiler because the info was widely available to the public. I did put up a spoiler, but since neither of us knew that it was a spoiler at the time, (You just assumed it was because it was in a trailer.) I should not be block or should have my block lessened. Also, a funny thing about the word "basically" is that when someone uses it, it is usually not applicable at all. Saying "You basically admitted you read the spoiler policy but still posted spoilers." is like saying "I think that you admitted or I wanted you to admit that you read the spoiler policy, but still posted spoilers." I never said that I read the spoiler policy and put up spoilers. The closest thing I said was something like "I read the rules, but I don't think it is a spoiler." After the fact means nothing. It should be more of breaking the rules to not let someone go after he or she learned his or her lesson than to accidentally spoil an episode. All I want to do is contribute to this wiki like 99% of the rest of the wiki. I am sorry that I made a mistake, but we all do. Even you. Rufus 21:12, August 26, 2014 (UTC) 120d

Tophat templates
Please do not make tophat templates, such as you did with. In the first place, there is a standard design to these on this wiki. And in the second, we're gradually phasing these out, as they do not work well on Wikia's various mobile platforms. Thanks! :) 05:18: Fri 12 Sep 2014
 * Deletion was the right call. The page was one sentence long, and that sentence contained mostly speculation. The image on it fell foul of our guide to images. There simply wasn't much to save. It can be recreated at a later date when we know more. We have no clear and unassailable idea what the Promised Land is as of this date. 05:33: Fri 12 Sep 2014
 * It is a convention of the way wikis are run that admin are chosen from the most frequent and most knowledgeable users, and that their judgement is generally to be trusted as working in the best interests of the site. That doesn't mean they are incapable of error; merely that they will try to exercise best judgement.


 * I've been through every series of modern Doctor Who on this site. And one of the things that I've learned is that it's best to write articles about a series' central story arc later in the run. It saves time in the long run, especially in the Moffat era. We wasted an awful lot of time, for instance, on trying to define Clara before The Name of the Doctor clarified things.


 * Now, that said, I don't think it's impossible that an article about Promised Land (notice the lack of a "the") could be written at this time. But in these early stages, it's highly recommended to stick to directly quoting characters, closely describing the events, and leaving it at that:


 * The Promised Land was a place that the Half-Face Man said he was trying to get to, but one whose existence was denied by the Twelfth Doctor. When the Half-Face Man appeared to die after having been impaled upon the spire of Big Ben, he was — by means unknown — transported to a lush, garden that Missy called "the promised land" and "paradise". (TV: Deep Breath) Later — as from the Doctor's perspective — a soldier from the Aristotle appeared to die within the body of a Dalek and then was transported to an elegant tea room, where she, too, encountered Missy. (TV: Into the Dalek) Later still, the Doctor discovered that a ship of robots that had crashed in Nottingham of about 1190 had a programmed destination of "the promised land". (TV: Robot of Sherwood)


 * And so on. See what I mean? There's a lot more you can write if you change the perspective and tone of your writing.  Think of yourself as someone who is here to document things closely but without value judgements.  The clear problem with your text was that you firmly called it a planet with categories and the infobox, while your text waffled a bit on that score.


 * It's really important not to project something with the categories which you don't really know, and it's important not to make a definitive statement about something that hasn't yet been absolutely defined by the series.


 * Now, you might say, "But there was a picture of the promised land in Sherwood!" But was there?  And did it portray a planet? I say that the graphic displayed in Sherwood is highly ambiguous. It looks like a sun to me, not a planet, as there is clear and abundant radiation around the sphere.  And, in any case, there's always the possibility that on a massively broken spaceship like that one that the database became corrupted. We don't know that we're being shown a picture of the promised land.


 * So it's better to stick to the less ambiguous parts of the narrative until we get enough information to start to make better judgements. It really does save time in the long run.


 * In any case, I hope the time I've taken to write out this long form response to you demonstrates that it was not a frivolous deletion. I know how to rename pages.  You should infer that if I've deleted something, it has been done with deliberation and in order to improve the accuracy and integrity of this database.   13:48: Fri 12 Sep 2014

Image rules
Our image policy has been developed over the course of years in order to assure a number of goals: These goals are not going to change over time. In the past — which is to say in the last decade — we simply begged people to understand these rules. They largely didn't. Now we have the facility to quickly delete non-compliant images. And we avail ourselves of that opportunity from time to time.
 * attractiveness of the image to readers
 * respect for the copyright holder
 * keeping page load speeds low
 * making the images easy for other users to find
 * distinguishing between a publicity shot and an in-universe one

We find this to be a fair thing to do, since our image rules are published in plain sight. And we find it effective in achieving the goals stated above.

Yes, I'm aware that these rules are different and more strict that those which exist elsewhere on Wikia. Since you're an admin on other sites, you may feel that you are especially qualified to say that they are "ridiculous". However, they have worked to improve the overall quality of our images.

I strongly suggest that you re-familiarise yourself with T:GTI and T:ICC to make sure your submissions are inline with our policy. Since many of our deletions are carried out by bot, I cannot in any way guarantee that non-compliant images — even if they come from a fellow admin like you — won't be deleted. 13:48: Fri 12 Sep 2014

Signature
Per T:SIG WHEN, please sign every post with your proper, linked signature every time you post something on a talk page. It is important that each comment be clearly tagged with a link back to your talk page so that it's very easy to find you and continue the conversation. It's bad form to require a correspondent to go to their talk page's history just to see who it was that left a comment. Also, remember that conversations are sometimes viewed by other people, or months down the line, and the context may be unclear if you don't sign the post — particularly if others join the conversation and are equally unwilling to sign their contributions.

Most importantly, the benefit of proper signing is that a time stamp is produced. This can be awfully important in order for your correspondent to understand how old the comment is.

Text communication is difficult and susceptible of multiple interpretations. In order for conversations to remain clear, please do sign every time you post. And hey — those four little tildes take much less time, incidentally, than the way you've been signing. Thanks very much! 13:48: Fri 12 Sep 2014

Message walls
We've talked about implementing message walls not once but twice. Each time the motion was defeated. Message walls have disadvantages too. We've found that having Wall Forum but traditional user talk pages is a good balance for us. It satisfies our older users — remember, we've been around for a decade! — while the Wall Forum gives newer users something they've seen elsewhere. 22:30: Fri 12 Sep 2014
 * Hey, Rufus. We've had two tries at getting Message Wall approved, one as late as 2013. That's really enough to let me know that the community isn't behind it. I get that you like it, and I like it, too. I use message walls all around the Wikia network. They have a number of conveniences. But please understand this is one of the original communities at Wikia. We beta test the latest products here, but this, along with talk pages on articles, are the major concessions we make to the past. This wikia will never willingly go to article comments and Message Walls. Please respect that and comply.  It's really not so hard to type four tildes after your post. And remember the great thing about Wikia is that every community has its own "twang", yanno what I mean?  22:58: Fri 12 Sep 2014

Image deletion
Rufus, I took some considerable time to patiently point you in the direction of our image use rules, and you've just violated them.

It's really very important that you upload images that clearly illustrate their topics at the thumbnail level. Our readers must be able to quickly glance at an image and know what it is, so most nighttime images are out.

I think it's important, as well, to consider whether a still image of one moment in a scene is more valuable than the video which comprises the entire scene. In my view the page is better illustrated by the whole video — though it's ultimately best illustrated by some of the very clear images in The Christmas Invasion backed up by the Rose video. That's a judgment call, though, and reasonable people can certainly disagree.

What's less acceptable is that you uploaded an image with gibberish filename. This is disallowed, as people must be able to find the image. Yes I know that we admin haven't caught every single gibberish filename, and some still exist here, but we try to ruthlessly delete any image that has a filename that doesn't read as plain English.

I know that you don't like our image rules, but you are nevertheless bound by them. Since you were directed to the main image rules earlier on this page, and since I explicitly said that one of our goals in image use was to make images easier to find, I can only assume that you have actively disregarded our rules. We take a very dim view of people who edit to make a point around here.

Nevertheless, I'm going to let this one go. I know that you've been banned at other wikis, and I don't really want to add to your ban list. So please just read T:ICC and T:GTI again and accept that these rules and guidelines need to be respected around here.

And, Rufus, I really don't have the time to debate it with you. These are the rules. They're good ones. They've given us a huge library of well-framed, topical, illustrative images that work in many different situations. Please do not respond on my talk page with more discussion about how you don't like the rules. 13:06: Tue 16 Sep 2014
 * If an admin has any one job, universally on every wikia, it is to protect his or her user base from those who would seek to dismiss their work. I simply cannot allow you to call "ridiculous" the work of hundreds of users who have come before you in the decade we've been around. You are completely mistaken to believe that the bulk of our policies are formed in anything but a collaborative way.  Yes, there are a few rules which are arbitrary, or spawned from technical limitations of the software which underpins Wikia, but most every serious and important rule has been made transparently, with the participation of the community. There aren't that many wikias that have a better record of hashing things out and involving the community in their decision-making processes.  Seriously, our archive of community discussions is huge – one of the biggest on Wikia.


 * The issue you're having is not that there is no community, but merely that you don't seem willing to be a part of that community. If you continue to disrespect the rules the whole community has helped write, you put us admin in a difficult position.  We want you to be here, but we can't enforce the rules for everyone else, but let you do what you want.  Good administration requires equal application of the rules — and valid reasons when occasionally those rules need to be ignored to serve a larger purpose.


 * As to your more specific points, one of the central thrusts of our image policy is essentially that an image should be worth a thousand words. In other words, they should be clearly illustrative to people who have never seen the episode.  A mistake that some editors make — not just here but at many Entertainment wikias — is that they contribute from the point of view of someone who has consumed the media in question. This puts up a barrier to understanding, which makes more casual fans tune out.


 * Any image which requires knowledge of the episode in order to recognise its subject is therefore bad, because it fails to do the one thing an image should do: identify.


 * [As an aside, remember, Rose was over nine years ago. It's a total mistake to believe that the casual viewer of Doctor Who would remember any plot details, much less the outright trivia of what store Rose work for. Flashing up an image of a building at night means next to nothing. If it were the only image possible for the thing, we'd have to use it. But it's not. The Christmas Invasion has clearly better illustration of Henrik's. Indeed, even Rose has better than the one you offered. And, besides, the page already had video with the complete scene, including your image. Your image is therefore not better than what was already there.]


 * More broadly speaking, you and I have a disagreement as to the job of the admin. You believe it's the admin's job to clean up after the wayward editor.  Your solution to badly named files seems to be for me to rename it for you. Well, again, I don't think the image you submitted was good enough to keep around, regardless of its name.


 * But let's say, for the sake of argument, that it was.


 * Thing is, I'm not your maid. Shambala isn't your maid.  SOTO isn't your maid. Tangerineduel is certainly not your maid. He can't even fit into the outfit. :)


 * Rather, we see it as our jobs to educate you about the rules of the wiki, so that you will then make good contributions in future. If this were a workplace, we'd be the company trainers and you'd be our trainee.  Our goal is help you make good choices before you hit "publish".


 * And the thing is, you can't credibly argue that you didn't know what the rules were. I pointed them out to you.  If you then choose to ignore the rules, then you're just editing to prove a point, which obviously isn't allowed.


 * Put another way, we're here to provide the framework by which editing happens. Essentially, that means creating a manual of style, in consultation with the community, and then enforcing it as impartially as possible. We strive to make sure that there's thematic consistency to pages – that readers can expect certain things of the wiki.  We're not looking for this "leaders and followers" paradigm of which you speak. Rather, our aim is editorial consistency.  And we want all of our decisions to be taken with a view towards making our material as comprehensible as possible for the very casual fan.  Basically, all of our work should be written that it might be understood by someone who knows nothing much more about Doctor Who other than that it is a television show about a time traveller named the Doctor who goes around the universe in a big blue box with his friends.


 * So when I delete, say, an image, I'm trying to make a point. I'm trying to say, "Look, this doesn't meet our standards here. Try again.". I stress the words, "Try again".  I'm not saying, as you have alleged, that I don't want you to contribute here.  I'm simply being an editor in the full sense of that word.  I'm deciding, based upon our manual of style and our editorial perspective, what gets to stay and what doesn't.


 * And this isn't just me. If you take the time to look at the edits that the admin staff in general have made of your work so far, you'll see that they are borne of a consistent goal.


 * All we're trying to say is that we want you to contribute well — that is, in such a way that the low-information user will understand, and in a manner which respects the work of all those users who have come before. If you can't do that, then we will have to part company. But that would be extremely regrettable, and I hope we can avoid that. 17:04: Tue 16 Sep 2014