User talk:OncomingStorm12th

Archiving
Teeny bit confused, but I deleted your first archive, and moved the second one to Archive 1...and your talk page is properly empty now? Was it something I did? This edit shows everything was removed, but when I looked at the page right before the page moves, it was all still there.

Anyway, from my experience, the archive tool has been known to be faulty on really big talk pages (which I don't think would include this one), and in those cases it's always best to just do the copying manually. If you have any further questions, let me know. 17:17, January 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know exactly what happened this time (maybe just the fact the archive template needed to recalibrate?), but, in general, making an edit, likely even submitting after having made no changes, will always "update" the page to what it really is, as you say. 17:26, January 29, 2017 (UTC)

Entity = Talent Scout
I hope you agree with the merge suggestion. PS. Thanks for looking into the image: I was a bit hesitant to put a two-page-large picture without a second opinion. Amorkuz ☎  01:06, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the encouragement and the trust. My vision is, essentially, that there should be three pages: one for the planet from which the creature was cut (can't remember it's name now), one for the shapeshiting creature (Entity + Talent Scout), and one for ARC, which is the "brain" of the creature (I now cannot remember how exactly this was explained). The grouping into pages is by body separation: planet is one body, ARC is another, Entity is just the earlier body of the Talent Scout. Amorkuz ☎  09:34, January 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * UPD. I screwed up and make a mistake on the merge. Good news: I can fix it by myself. This year really cannot be edited on an issue by issue basis. Bottomline: I did not do enough research. I will and fix things. Amorkuz ☎  22:15, January 31, 2017 (UTC)

Shooting gallery
Sorry, I came up with a perhaps better image. But bring this one back if you think it's better. Amorkuz ☎  19:07, January 30, 2017 (UTC)

Reverting multiple changes
Just so you know, any editor can restore an earlier version of a page by going to the revision you want in the history, editing and publishing. 22:16, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

Page moves
Sorry for having apparently never replied (or actually submitted one, anyway). Yes, you are correct that I haven't been around as much lately, as in the past, but I did look through your list when I first got it, and took care of a few of the cases. I apologise, by the way, if I am unnecessarily verbose (or confusing in any way) in my reply; my day was very tiring, but better to write this now than put it off at all.

I'm afraid I can't just take your two lists as-is, and simply trust your judgement on what ought to be where. There was a reason CzechOut created the very first on your list at Norris, rather than Chuck Norris, and that's because it's not explicitly revealed in the text, and there are no other Norrises with unknown first names to create the need to disambiguate, or slightly bend T:NO RW.

I can't really comment on all the Unbound page moves right now, as I haven't actually listened to the stories myself to confirm whether or not the new names are in fact substantiated—and as other admin are, I'm still pretty confused as to how we're meant to deal with the recent decision on those stories, particularly Deadline.

I will try to get to the others. According to T:DAB, there is no reason for an audio series to be given a dab term when that same name has no other meaning. Given that The Churchill Years is not also the name of a book the Doctor owns, there is no real reason for it to become The Churchill Years (audio series), as you say, although I suppose the intention was to differentiate it from the first anthology in the series, The Churchill Years (audio anthology). Anyway, your second list seems about right. Those should be moved back.

Manually move the links? Don't bother. It's very easy to do by bot.

Preternatural Research Bureau needs to be renamed to P.R.O.B.E.. I don't understand how the latter link was ever the series. I placed a speedy rename at that page just now. Not sure what's up with Ruthven, truthfully. Now it's a redirect to Ruthventracolixabaxil. Should that redirect be Ruthven (The Eleven Day Empire) instead? There's a lot still to look at here. I will get back to this, maybe this weekend, and I'll see what I can do. 02:40, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

Infobox Anatomy
Huh. That's an interesting idea. A link in the infobox to cardiovascular system is, I think, a very natural evolution from current variables in other infoboxes. Present on? Present in? And if there's a "part of", why not an "includes" variable?

That said, I don't have time for that just now. In the coming week, though, perhaps even this weekend, I might be able to make this one for you.

(In the realm of categories, by the way, do you think category:Anatomy from the real world should be created? I normally make those by bot, based on the presence of .) 00:09, March 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * The reason I have not made the infobox yet is that infoboxes are currently in flux here. When the new infoboxes are fixed in place, and it's all figured out, I can make this one. Feel free to remind me. If I archive, the original conversation can be found at User talk:SOTO/Archive 7. 13:41, May 4, 2017 (UTC)

Thread:204223
Thread has been closed. Shambala108 ☎  02:30, April 6, 2017 (UTC)

Infobox images
I have no idea where the rule comes from or where it's written down, but I'm absolutely sure that at some point it was agreed that any story released to home markets first (BBV, video games, etc) should have their box art used in the infobox. This doesn't apply to things like TV stories because TV stories are rarely published with covers initially. OS25 (Talk) 23:53, April 11, 2017 (UTC)

Image Request
Hey, since you're pulling images from the latest episode, may I suggest a good one?

I recall a couple frames in there of Movellans being "exterminated; as their bodies become inverted and their skeletons show. One of these would be great for the Dalek-Movellan War page. Crop it a bit and I think it would really pop. OS25 (Talk) 03:35, April 16, 2017 (UTC)

Synopses
To be perfectly honest, this is already pretty clear from the current text at Tardis:Plagiarism. The "example of what not to do" is exactly this, but with a reference book.
 * Say one day that you notice, "Wow, we have a lot of blank story pages around here." Maybe The Terror of the Darkness' catches your eye.  So you go off to the Doctor Who Reference Guide, and find a plot summary there.  You then copy and paste that plot summary into our site.


 * At this point you are caught by an admin and blocked from further editing our site. This behaviour is absolutely forbidden.

This is then followed by:
 * Plagiarism is not about having the same information here that might also be found on the official BBC website, or in a reference book. Instead, plagiarism happens when you copy the precise wording used in another source. Put everything you submit here into your own language, and you'll be fine.

Do you have any suggestions on how you think this can be made even clearer? 18:21, April 16, 2017 (UTC)

Planet (The Pilot)
Sorry it's taken a while to reply. The BtS section for Planet (The Pilot) has the correct link, but as it is a Facebook story it has to be viewed on a mobile or tablet, otherwise it just links to a video. If you have a mobile device with access to Facebook, go to the official Doctor Who page and scroll back to the post from 5 April at 10.42 and it will work correctly. I wasn't certain how best to present this as a reference on the wiki, but the information is there. Hope this helps. 66 Seconds ☎  23:32, April 18, 2017 (UTC)

Heather
Sorry to interject. I just saw your question, and I suspect what the reason is. I think Heather is considered a primary topic as the. I've bumped into similar cases before with Victoria, which is the queen rather than the companion and Hector without the dab term but with the disambiguation page carrying the dab term: Hector (disambiguation). Amorkuz ☎  21:39, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Heather
Hi! I only removed the rename tag because another user added it back a mere few hours after User:CzechOut removed it with his reasoning in the edit summary. I suggest you ask him his reasoning, as I was merely upholding it, and he will probably explain it better than I could. Thanks! Shambala108 ☎  00:43, April 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * As Amorkuz has pointed out in the previous section, the part of T:DAB which applies here is that the plant called heather is the primary topic. This is consistent with the way that Victoria on this wiki refers to the British Queen. Most things named "Victoria" on this wiki are done so in honor of that queen. Likewise, people named Heather, at least in English, ultimately derive their names from the plant.


 * In many cases, it is more sensible -- and quicker! -- for the reader if we declare certain pages the "primary topic" and then put a or  right at the top of that page that directs them to a longer list of other things with that name. We have to remember that the very word disambiguation is a tad unfamiliar to many people who have not edited wikis.  Thus it's a good idea, as at Victoria, to use the  template in such a way that the word disambiguation doesn't appear.  And indeed, even though  could potentially use the word disambiguation in its default output, it defines the term, as seen at left.


 * The average reader is thus able to search for Victoria and quickly get to the list of other Victorias without having to stop and look up the word disambiguation.


 * Of course, there are some cases where a primary topic is not able to be found or fairly assessed -- most likely because the list is exceedingly long. In such cases, the un-disambiguated term points to the list itself.  A great example of this is Peter, where there's not even a primary "Peter" within Doctor Who -- who's more important to the history of DW: Capaldi? Davison? Bennett? Purves? Brachacki? Peter of Galilee, even? --  much less the English language.   14:38: Thu 20 Apr 2017

Pipe switching in new infoboxes
I'm currently unaware of a solution to this problem, but I'm still working on it.

It's currently purposeful that the only/first values on infoboxes do not pipe switch, but because it's the only way to get SMW to actually display the value. The utility of having the ability to run useful reports, like Property:First appearance -- which gives you a list of all first appearances -- or Special:Browse/An Unearthly Child (TV story) -- which will give you a list of all the things that appear for the first time in that story -- is greater than the ability to truncate the parenthetical. 23:24: Thu 20 Apr 2017

Moira
I noticed you are after undoing my edits on Moira, Bill Potts adoptive mother. I have added the pages that the links direct to, and I have read the redlinks page- which refers to the redlinks as requests for pages and that the links should be kept unless the serve no relevant function on the page. Since I have added the pages, but have had the links to those pages deleted, then what function do the redlinks serve on the page?

Thank You
Thanks you for replying so quickly and for being so understanding. Defiantly a point in favour of this wiki. Marcus.

RE: Battlefield
Turns out I never submitted this response. Anyway you indeed do have a point. That redirect has been deleted (and all links updated). Battlefield the redlink is now all yours, if you should choose to tackle it. 05:33, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

Main settings
I keep thinking that we should discuss these things more. We all have our implicit ideas of how to edit best, but, not surprisingly, they sometimes do not match. I had this worry on the back of my mind that I might be undoing someone's carefully laid system in my Titanic struggle. So why don't we discuss this.

I think, being a completist, I was internally going for as full a list of locations in the infobox as possible. Fortunately, that did not amount to too much as most Titan comic stories published by mid-November 2014 did not really have these small pockets. However, I did put into the infoboxes Neptune in Terrorformer and London in Whodunnit?.

So let me explain my reasoning hoping to hear yours later. I understand it is called the "main setting" suggesting that some of the locations should be omitted. My feeling about this is two-fold.

On the one hand, a very long list of locations, obviously, would be unhelpful, so the wording gives us freedom to omit secondary locations if need be. I imagine, this is especially useful for a novel with dozens of flashbacks. Even though I actually did add half a dozen locations to the infobox of Class novel The Stone House. When there are only two or three locations, I generally see no reason to skip one of them.

But there is another aspect, having to do with the blessed eternal incompleteness of the wiki. For me, infobox and categories are the first line of defence against incomplete articles. Oftentimes, there would be few references and no plot. So whether a secondary location is even mentioned on the page becomes a game of chance with continuity. Sometimes, there is a category that can carry this information until one of us wikifies the story completely. But if not, then the unfortunate consequence is that the is no trace of the location on the page and no link to the location from the page. This impedes research and makes things non-transparent. Take, for instance, Terrorformer. I've wikified the first issue, but not yet the second where Neptune appears. Before I added Neptune to the infobox and added Category:Stories set in the Sol System, there was no link from the page to Neptune (even though the planet was mentioned in the plot, the existence of which is a rarity). And the category alone is not specific enough to point specifically to Neptune, nor would provide a traceable link.

Finally, there is an ulterior motive. It sometimes happens that I bump into information that seems doubtful to me. For instance, there is an appearance of Ada Obiefune in Whodunnit?. I'd like to quickly squash my doubt by looking at the page. But what if the story is set in space only? That seems misleading for me, as opposed to seeing a second setting in 20th century London, which is an immediate explanation of where Ada came from in the story.

This is, roughly, why I prefer to keep in the infobox as many locations/dates as doesn't hurt the eye. I'm interested in your thoughts. (And sorry for the long post.) Amorkuz ☎  19:54, April 28, 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, let's try to inch closer towards a consensus. You are probably right that listing everything in the infobox might be counterproductive. Also, to keep things manageable, I want to stick to the comic cases. The things that I'd like to propose as still main settings even if it does not take many pages are:

As you can see, what I'm really interested is pages I've already edited. I know them very well, so if we can agree on them, I'll have a better idea of the golden ratio for this. Amorkuz ☎  22:58, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * Places that are important for the plot. For instance, in What He Wants..., the scenes in 1962 London are reasonably short. But that's where they pick up John Jones, that is, in fact, his temporal origin. And 2014 London jump starts the whole adventure, so also directly relevant for the plot.
 * Places that are providing linkage to future stories. For instance, the epilogue of The Friendly Place set in SERVEYOUinc City, which is then repeated as prologue in The Rise and Fall, or the Neptune interlude in Terrorformer that sets the stage for The Hyperion Empire.
 * That's exactly my point. Each of us thinks about it but rarely discusses with others. I agonised about it myself. I put/left London there (can't remember if it was me) because of the fear that Hackney would not be immediately recognisable (if memory serves). If you don't live in London, you might not recognise Hackney as being in London. But thinking of it now, there are hundreds of DWU places in infoboxes that no one can recognise unless they know the story, for instance, Ouloumos. The info is just a click away, so the clarification is not needed. Here are other cases I've encountered:


 * two neighbourhoods of one city should probably be described by one place, the city;
 * two cities in one country should probably be both present, as in Spearhead from Space;
 * I just saw an interesting case at The Mind of Evil: there are two entries in the infobox, a prison and the whole of England. But I strongly believe these are actually two different places: one named and the other not specified exactly. Amorkuz ☎  23:37, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

Unbound Doctor appearances
Greetings, I was looking at the merge request you put on The Doctor (Unbound Universe) - list of appearances. It says that this page "has the best content". My problem is that I can't find a single difference between this page and The Doctor (Sympathy for the Devil) - list of appearances. Am I missing something or should I just delete the "unbound" page instead of moving/merging as you proposed. Amorkuz ☎  21:48, April 30, 2017 (UTC)


 * So the devil is in the details. Let's have sympathy for them then. Amorkuz ☎  22:07, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

Title Cards
Hey, just messaging because I'm curious as to how you get your title cards without the BBC logo in the top left? I know I've posted some in the past and honestly I don't even remember doing it. Some of mine even DO have the BBC logo, so I'd like to change that in good time also. Thanks! StevieGLiverpool ☎  07:03, May 9, 2017 (UTC)

Karen Davies
Thanks for the assist. Amorkuz ☎  00:09, May 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * Speaking of speedy renames, I'm not ignoring yours. Well, I am a bit but mostly because most of them are bot-worthy. I leave them for SOTO and CzechOut. As for the two Valleys of Gods, good catch: I'm doing research on that. Some of our dab rules are pretty arcane. Amorkuz ☎  00:22, May 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * So I finally figured out a way of collecting all the location names with dabs (plus some stray persons). You can find it here (there's a link at the bottom for more entries). I'm gonna be puzzling over it for some time. Amorkuz ☎  07:42, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

Your pic at Egypt
Just wanted to say that your pic at Egypt was brilliant! It entirely made my day, and I wholly approve of it as the image that should be there permanently. :) 02:42: Fri 12 May 2017

Location renames: the difficult cases
Okay, there are several speedy renames in the pipeline that this response concerns. I hate to disappoint you but the current pages are correct though it took time to find out exactly how the policy is applied in such cases. Let me give you the legal side first.
 * Fox Inn (Stockbridge) to "Fox Inn (Endgame)"
 * Fox Inn (Tulloch) to "Fox Inn (Terror of the Zygons)"
 * White Rabbit (Legion) to "White Rabbit (Everybody Loves Irving)"
 * White Rabbit (London) to "White Rabbit (The Harvest)"
 * Valley of the Gods (Earth) to "Valley of the Gods (Day of the Moon)"
 * Valley of the Gods (Xaos) to "Valley of the Gods (The Warrior's Story)"

Normally non-characters are dabbed by type: when things do require disambiguation some standard terms are given at T:DAB TERM (see Dab). T:DAB TERM provides examples of dabbing with "book", "film" and "species". In addition, "(prison)" is given as an example in Dab. We both know several other standard terms.

In all six examples above, this simple rule does not work because two things of the same type exist. It would seems that Dab provides an answer in the passage about "re-used" species names: to dab by the story name. This is, of course, also the method used for characters: if a thing needs disambiguation, but it appears in more than one episode or story, the disambiguation term shall be the first story or episode in which the character appears. (see T:DAB RULES).

I would admit that this passage is a bit confusing: it starts with "thing" but ends with "character". So which is it? The origins of this bit of policy are linked right there. It is based on a forum discussion, which is very short (and old). It is concentrated exclusively on characters.

In short, both places suggesting to dab by the story of the first appearance are devoted to species and characters respectively. Is there any rule about things in general then? It's actually up there at Dab. I just omitted it for dramatic effect. The general rule of thumb is to make the name a single, simple word, such as (planet), (moon) or the like. It's tempting to say this is not applicable to the six cases above because "(valley)" cannot be used. But take a second look: each of them is dabbed with a single, simple word. The only difference is that it is not a type but rather a location. So this is the policy supporting the current naming. Amorkuz ☎  16:50, May 20, 2017 (UTC)


 * Yep, all the above establishes is that there is no clear rule on what to use in such cases. In particular, using the story name is not a rule because, as you say, its justification in the forum has nothing to do with such cases.
 * Unfortunately, as the sample I collected shows, one-rule-fit-all is not possible here. The goal is usability: the dab term should be (a) unambiguous, (b) easy to remember and (c) easy to enter. Clearly (a) comes into conflict with (b) and (c), meaning that every time we have to think and use common sense. Having said that, some clear trends have been established. As we both know, type is the first and most commonly used, but it is ambiguous in this case. So here is what is done (note that this list does not and cannot cover all the cases):


 * It is easy to dab by location and this is preferred, provided that it does not create ambiguity. Hence, we have Three Sisters (England) and Three Sisters (Australia), 44th Street (Manhattan) and 44th Street (Brooklyn), St Mary's Church (Cardiff) and St Mary's Church (Chiswick), Class 1C (Coal Hill) and Class 1C (Perivale). Note that these include both real-world places, like 44th Streets, that are likely to be mentioned in different stories independently from each other and in-universe objects introduced in some story, like Classes 1C. The theory here is, presumably, that it is more likely for a reader to remember the location of the place than the name of the story it first appeared. As a mental exercise, try to remember which story 44th Street in Brooklyn was first introduced. Or choose any class in Coal Hill School and try to remember which story the camera first did a 2-second pass over the class number. Yes White Rabbit is not obviously a bar, but the story name doesn't explain it is a bar either. And a reader can expect to remember if it was in London or not. Yes, we expect most readers to know that White Rabbit is a bar when searching for it. If they don't, well, they will learn something. The same goes for the Valley of the Gods, except that it's clearly a valley. A reader searching for it is likely to know whether it is on Earth or not.
 * But sometimes it doesn't work and then we do not hesitate to use the story name as the last resort. Story names are used when the object is so generic that no reasonable description would make it unique. The primary example here is Planet (Army of Ghosts) and all other planets. But also Barn (The Day of the Doctor) could not be "Barn (Gallifrey)" because there must be millions of those (given billions of inhabitants).
 * There is the opposite case when the object is unique but occurs in different timelines. Thus, we have Gallifrey (Auld Mortality) and many other Gallifreys. (Although dabbing by the reality name might be better here as per Tardis:Disambiguating other realities).
 * Vehicles are hard to pinpoint in any other way than by the story name. Hence we have TARDIS (Hell Bent) and many other TARDISes.
 * There is a curious case of Great Divide (Birthright), which connects two places and hence is not in any one location.
 * There are many other cases that require individual approach. Take The Doctor's cottage (The Pictures of Josephine Day), for instance. Were it known which village it is in, it would have been better to dab by this village. But we only know it's in Wales. And there is no guarantee that the Doctor only has one cottage in the whole of Wales over the course of history. So sometimes we fall back to the story dabbing when all else fails.
 * On the other hand, there are obviously many pages that are just plain wrong. Like Great Wheel (The Friendly Place) needs no dab term. It's the only Great Wheel in a page name. Or The Factory (The Light at the End) would be better served by The Factory (pocket dimension) or some such. This, however, requires research on how exactly it is described in the story.
 * To summarise, it is impossible to make exact rules fitting all cases. But the general preference is to use the type of object first, the location if that fails and the story title if that fails too. Amorkuz ☎  23:15, May 20, 2017 (UTC)

New infoboxes
Hey hey :) SOTO and I have been discussing your requests for new infoboxes, so don't think we've forgotten. I just wanted to stop by and beg your indulgence for a little while longer, though. See, the infobox project isn't "over" just because Special:Insights/nonportableinfoboxes is currently empty. There are other metrics used to determine overall portability, and, for a reason I've not yet been able to determine, we're still pretty low. So there's some hidden work to be done on the existing set of templates.  I'd like to get our overall portability number higher before adding in any new infoboxes that might make determing the reason for our low overall portability numbers more complex.

Unfortunately, the master portability metrics are only calculated on Saturdays, so you shouldn't expect any action until at least next week.

Additionally, there's a big difference between converting an infobox so that it's removed from the S:I/NPI list, and having it really up and running. I've made thousands of bot edits just in the last week or so which helped ease the transition to the new boxes. And I'm in the middle of making one right now. PnP and SOTO have additionally caught a few bugs, as well. Given our use of SMW, heavy audio and video integration, Tardis' use of infoboxes is fairly "edge-casey", so I wanna make sure we're proceeding carefully.

In the meantime, do please continue thinking about the variables you'd like in these two proposed infoboxes. 19:16: Thu 25 May 2017

Edit conflicts
I realised I made a formatting mistake and was attempting to correct it. I know you had no way of knowing that, but at least give me 10 seconds! I keep getting edit conflicts because of this. --Sumanuil ☎  23:06, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

It's fine. I just have a slow connection and a short fuse. Next time I'll refresh before I try to correct something I got wrong.--Sumanuil ☎  23:35, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

Brotherhood
Well, it's a redlink now. Nice new profile image. 02:05, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

torchwood_cascade_CDRip.tor
There have been plenty longer story titles, of course. I'll look into this idea of Cascade as a viable alternative, but I do think the story page itself should have the name as seen on the cover. 01:03, June 8, 2017 (UTC)
 * I actually just forgot to submit the above message earlier, hence the delay. Why would be necessary on character pages? Oh, I see. The underscores. Yes, that would certainly work. Cascade (audio story) might be a possibility; I'll have a think, and bring it up with the others. 01:52, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

Wonder Woman
That is incredibly slender evidence. I'm a huge Wonder Woman fan and even I don't think that's a slam dunk. It's gotta be a bit clearer. It'll probably come one day, but that screenshot is just too obscure. 03:30: Sat 24 Jun 2017
 * Hey, I don't normally stop someone from trying to edit to their interests, but this evidence is very, very thin. There is no way to display that Flash poster and still remain within our guidelines for images.  It's simply too low contrast at thumbnail size. The Flash will be deleted, and I've gotta ask you to stop putting up pages for characters that cannot be clearly recognised at the thumbnail level.  03:52: Sat 24 Jun 2017
 * Hey lemme suggest an alternative way to get this information on the wiki. What if instead of all these individual pages, where the standard of proof is -- from my view of Mysterio right now -- really higher than the dark cinematography will allow, you created a single page called Comic superheroes seen in Grant's bedroom? Then you could list them, give a little information about where they're found in the room -- that sorta thing. There'd be no question about the page existing, because there are clearly comic superheroes on the wall and in his comics.  Whaddya think?  04:01: Sat 24 Jun 2017

Black Archive navbox
Non-admins can absolutely create new navboxes, though sometimes navboxes will be locked, and so made admin-only from that point forward.

You really want this thing to be called ? I thought you weren't decided for a good while, until I worked out the acronym. Anyway, it looks good on the technical side. You might want to make the  at least 7.6em, so the Doctors' names only take up one line.

And don't forget to add

, of course. I could create the template for you, if you like, under any name you choose, but you're perfectly free to publish it yourself. I will then implement by bot, if that makes things easier. :) 01:13, June 27, 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, what's wrong with ? 01:21, June 27, 2017 (UTC)
 * Whoops, forgot to give my reply. As you've no doubt noticed, the template has been created, and implemented on all pages just far. :) 01:46, June 27, 2017 (UTC)

YouTube links
There is, in fact. , as you'll see on the documentation allows for such use as. In the infobox, you simply use, or  , to achieve the same effect. 19:46, July 6, 2017 (UTC)