Howling:Off-screen Ten/River meetings.

I remember shortly before series 5 aired, Steven Moffat implied extremely heavily that there was off-screen Doctor/River meetings, which would have been when Ten was traveling alone. It was also implied in The Time of Angels, the Doctor notes that "we keep meeting in the wrong order" as if he has met has several times now. He wouldn't say that if he had only met River once, and she was at the end of her timeline. His dialouge would suggest he met her several times now, all out of order.

That, and Moffat's comments basically say the same thing. He said something like, "Ah, but who said it's the SECOND time? in refering to the first 4 episodes of series 5. This would obviously refer to the Doctor "we *keep* meeting in the wrong order" dialouge - it's not the second time he met her. There was a large chunk of him traveling alone, too.

Things to note:

It was already implied by the Doctor and Moffat

River recognises Ten very clearly - must have met him before in her timeline (there was a chunk where he traveled alone and got upto things unseen)

I don't remember clearly but upon learning that the Doctor hasn't experienced the Crash of Byzantium (The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone) yet in his timeline, I believe she places the Picnic of Agard before the Crash of Byzantium in his timeline.

So, she places the picnic before the Crash of Byzantium in his timeline, meaning he had to have experienced that off-screen. There was chucnk were Ten had off-screen adventures. She clearly recognised Ten. The Doctor heavily implies he has met her several times by during the Crash of Byzantium (explaining why I'm sure she placed the picnic before the crash in his timeline). Moffat already implied the same thing about off-screen meetings.

Without a doubt, there has been some off-screen meetings, and Asgard is one of them. Or they may only be one-screen meeting, but his dialouge would sughgest he has met her a number of times. "We keep." He seems to know River far too well in her second appearance to have only met her once before.

To the point, there are far too many mentioned River adventures too all be seen, so some will naturally be off-screen. Delton Menace#

I stopped reading immediately after seeing "River recognises Ten very clearly"...River didn't recognize Ten at all...I have no idea which show you're watching. What kind of viewer could misinterpret something to the extent of seeing something opposite of what was shown? River's first meeting with the Tenth resulted in her death...so I highly doubt it's possible that Ten had more adventures with River before the End of Time. Where do the 'implications' come from? --203.168.176.42 17:04, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Idiot. Both Moffat and the Doctor very clearly implied that there were off-screen River/Doctor meetings, oh, and if you actually read, it seems the Asgard event is before the Byzantium event in the Doctor's timeline. Sheesh. Delton Menace 23:56, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor didn't really imply that they had met several times before. He said that they keep meeting in the wrong order, but he knows that anyway because River told him in Silence in the Library. River didn't neccessarily recognize Ten. In Time of Angels she said that she had pictures of all of his faces. That conversation was probably only in the episode to explain why she recognized Ten. The picnic at Asgard may have happened before the Byzantium for River, but she wouldn't know what order it happened in for the Doctor. Its not very likely that something as important as the Doctor meeting a mysterious character like River Song, for the second time from his perspective, would occur offscreen.Icecreamdif 03:15, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Without resorting to insults ... Re-watching "Silence in the Library" and their first meeting just now, I agree with Delton that River definitely recognises Ten. As soon as she enters the room where she first meets him and Donna, pausing a moment, she walks steadily towards him, and before he or Donna has said anything, she gives a huge smile and greets him warmly with "Hello, Sweetie." He responds "Get out!" as he would to a random group of people in an unsafe place. Only then does Donna say "Doctor..." Later on she starts by calling him 'Pretty Boy' and starts trying to tell him that she knows him and that he should know her - or that he will. I would interpret this as River knowing what Ten looks like at that point.

I do think it could be consistent with her having other meetings with Ten, that are later in his timeline (so he doesn't recognise her at that point) but earlier in hers. And because she doesn't recognise Donna, it would mean that those meetings are after Ten has been forced to leave Donna behind. If Moffat has tried to make it clear that the Crash of the Byzantium is not definitely the second time that the Doctor has met River (from his point of view), and he's the writer of that episode and now the new series, then I wouldn't assume there have been no meetings in between.

As for what kind of viewer could misinterpret something to the extent of seeing something opposite of what was shown ... I hope I've stated clearly enough what was shown. If you want to reinterpret that for me ... feel free :) the angel Jean - Smith&#39;s little elf 03:24, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

In Time of Angels, River said that she had pictures of all of the Doctor's faces. This was clearly meant to explain why she recognized the Tenth Doctor. It doesn't make sense that the Doctor's second meeting with River would have occured offscreen. That would have been to important an event not to show. Unless an episode actually states that the Byzantium crash was not the Doctor's second meeting with River, it should be assumed that it was.Icecreamdif 03:34, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think that they must show us all the meetings, or even the second meeting ... Can you explain to me why the second meeting would be so important? I can just imagine the Tenth looking her up, somewhere on his travels, and having a picnic at Asgard - with no particularly screen-worthy adventure involved. I mean, he had a whole romance with someone else and got married (Queen Bess?) and they didn't show us! And while I agree that the Crash of the Byzantium is the second meeting that we know of, I'm comfortable with the idea that we haven't seen everything, and that there are events that we might get told about later - or that events we've already been told about might fit anywhere into the timeline.the angel Jean - Smith&#39;s little elf 04:05, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Of course River knew who would the man be, as she called him to the library, but River clearly said she didn't know which incarnation or at what point in his own timelineTenth is?

Can someone please find where or when did Moffat made it clear that the Crash of the Byzantium is not the second time they meet?

To Delton Mental, where did you get the point that Asguard happened before Byzantium on the Doctor's timeline? --222.166.181.205 03:59, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Another thing to note is that the Doctor, during any future incarnation, wouldn't ramdomly go on about Donna towards River, especially with how long it would have been by then. He would have told River about Donna during his Tenth Incarnation, which really fits: his traveling alone is right after lossing Donna, explaining why he would even mention her to River, telling he rduring his Tenth incarnation in an off-screen meeting. I'm pretty damn sure that, when she releases he hasn't done the Crash of Byzantium, she goes earlier in his timeline, and then asks about the Asgard thing, I think it was an issue of DWM where Moffat implied it was the second time the Doctor met River..Delton Menace 04:09, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

What does Donna has to do with this?


 * 1) I can't recall that River recognized/knew Donna when she met her in the Library


 * 1) So the Doctor is now allowed to mention a previous companion regardless of what will possibly happen?

You mean second time as in:
 * 1) the library? It can't be, because Tenth makes it absolute that it was his first meeting
 * 2) Byzantium? It is. Library = First. Byzantium = Second.

It's pretty obvious that River's comments were made in the perspective of her timeline...otherwise, she wouldn't have to ask the Doctor which point it is at the Doctor's timeline if she knew the order. River said in The Big Bang that it's too early on the Doctor's timeline and "the Doctor doesn't know [her] yet, and now he never will"...so I don't know where you get the idea that they are familiar with each other already. --203.168.176.42 04:52, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

The thing about Donna is that in Silence in the Library, they make a point of the fact River Song definitely doesn't recognise Donna. At 33:13 in Silence in the Library, when the Doctor says Donna's name in front of the others for the first time, River reacts as though she's heard Donna's name - "Donna ... you're Donna, Donna Noble!" - but before that she treats her as just one of the Doctor's companions, making small talk - "So, you travel with him, don't you?" And River won't answer Donna's question as to why she didn't recognise her at first, even though she knows her full name. If we allow the possibility that the Tenth met with River Song again before his regeneration, this means that any meetings would be after he left Donna. the angel Jean - Smith&#39;s little elf 05:31, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

it doesn't support that tenth had other meetings with River --222.166.181.16 05:37, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

But you fail to listen. Steven Moffaat *himself* very clearly implied, if not indirectly confirmed, that The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone is not the second meeting the Doctor had with River. Plus, the Doctor nots that he keeps meeting River in the wrong order, which he wouldn't say if he only met her once before. He would say that after a few (out of order) meetings. River Song knew all about Donna Noble upon hearing her name, the Doctor told her all about Donna. That would most likely be the Tenth Doctor, which makes sense, as his off-screen adventures are after the event with Donna. I cannot imagine, at some point even furhter in his future, he randomly starts moaping about Donna to River. Ten would do that shortly after it happened.

Plus, whatever he said to River about Donna, none of it was pleasant. If he had told her following The End of Time, it wouldn't be so grim as the Doctor would remember her as having gotten married, a happy family, and will become fairly rich. Before he regenerated and after the loss of Donna, he remembered her as begging him not to erase he memories. Therefore, the Doctor would have told River about Donna when he only remembered her series 4 parting - the grim one. Plus, it makes more sense that Ten would tell her, as opposed to a future incarnation after plenty has happened since then, who already remembed Donna as having a good fate.

And fact is fact. Moffat made it pretty clear that the Crash of Byzantium was not the second meeting. End of.Delton Menace 05:44, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Mr "Others Failed to Listen", this is the third time I asked you to point out where did Moffat made it clear that the Crash of Byzantium was not the second meeting.


 * 1) The Doctor knew that their meetings are out of order since the first time he met her, why are a few meetings required before he can come up with the conclusion? You are not making sense.


 * 1) You are speculating on a future plotline, and you're just taking your assumptions as facts. There're no reasons to assume that the Doctor can't mention Donna in the future.  The Doctor met Sarah Jane Smith again in Series 2; he keeps on meeting Jack again; Rose, Martha, Sarah Jane, Donna and Jack know each other; do you consider this incomprehensible?


 * 1) Thank you to Jean for bringing that up, but Menace, you're still just speculating: (A) We don't know if Donna had a happy ending since she hasn't died yet (especially with the timeline change) (B) I don't think in any point of the series has it ever suggested that the Doctor viewed it as a happy ending...The Doctor and Wilf felt sad for Donna not remembering the adventures and living the life of an ordinary woman. The lottery was meant to be a compensation, and Wilf said that Donna's life became empty after Doctor left, you're just imposing your personal values on her and the Doctor.  I didn't see the Doctor acting particularly happy for Donna.  (C) Moreover, you are assuming that River Song needs to know every single detail about Donna, including the little bit where the Doctor gave her a lottery ticket in the end when River's only source of knowledge is the Doctor himself.  (D) How do you know that "whatever he said to River about Donna, none of it was pleasant", I can't find any support for it...for all I know, River values adventures over money, she would probably feel sad for Donna even if she knew the whole story.


 * 1) Please just show us where did Moffat made it clear instead of just repeating the phrase over and over again and saying no one listened to you. It's speculators like you that caused the downfall of this forum.  --222.166.181.93 06:09, July 22, 2010 (UTC)