Talk:The Monk

His name
I don't recall him being referred to by name in his two television appearances. If this name was applied to the character in spin-off media, this needs to be indicated somewhere. 23skidoo 20:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Article title/ Name change
The Master is not at Koschei, the Rani is not at Ushas, and the War Chief is not at Magnus. Why is this at Mortimus and not the Monk?--The Traveller 12:06, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It comes from what he was last known as/most recently known as. Ushas and Koschei is what they used to be called, but have since referred to themselves as Rani and Master. The name 'the Monk' was a name applied to him by the First Doctor, but in No Future he is referring to himself as Mortimus. --Tangerineduel 12:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this page should be named "The Monk" same as the others eg "The Doctor". Is No Future canon? 86.149.235.138 17:49, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

So in your way of speaking the Monk should now be called as Abbot Thelonious. (Ceryu 18:14, October 10, 2010 (UTC))

The Monk should be known by is most recent name so it should be Monk right they only called him Mortimus in the academy?

I agree with you, they only called The Monk by Mortimus in the academy, just like the War Chief or the Rani. Is should be changed to The Monk. (Ceryu 18:11, October 10, 2010 (UTC))

I agree that his name should be changed to The Monk, because like the Master the Monk is his most used alias and Abbot Thelonious is just a cover name much like what thew Master uses. Mortimus is the Monk's true name but like the Master and the Rani the article titles should use the individuals most consistent and universally known name. Revanvolatrelundar 18:18, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * How is the Monk the most universally known name? The Monk is the most known alias because that's what he's called in the TV stories he's appeared in.
 * Mortimus names himself/is named in the dialogue in No Future, not just at the academy.
 * Does Mortimus refer to himself as "the Monk"? The Master and the Doctor both refer to themselves using their titles/alias but does the Monk? --Tangerineduel 15:25, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mortimus is still not the Monk's most recently used name though, Abbot Thelonious is which muddies the waters about what to call the article in my opinion. Revanvolatrelundar 15:36, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Isn't Abbot Thelonious an alias he goes under while Mortimus he states is his name, his real name? --Tangerineduel 16:15, October 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * And what of the majority of us that don't accept books and audio books as canon? If he was only named Mortimus in the books and on screen was named the Monk, then like the Rani and the Master, he should be known as the Monk. 86.185.155.73 03:52, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect attribution of picture.
This picture:



...is of the actor Jim Carter. He did not play Abbot Thelonious, he played Brother Bernard. Abbot Thelonious was played by Graeme Garden.

94.192.226.173 22:21, October 18, 2010 (UTC)Gareth Roberts
 * The image has been removed from this article, thanks for the note. Rob T Firefly 02:35, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Misinterpretations?
First, at no point in "The Time Meddler" or "The Daleks Master Plan" was the character ever referred to by any name. Since he disguised himself as a monk, people called him "The Monk". But prior to "The Time Meddler" and after "The Daleks Master Plan" he wouldn't have dressed that way. He didn't behave particularly like a monk either!

Next up, the idea that he is "childish" or "not clever". Actually he comes across as very cunning(even after The Doctor works out something is suspicious, he still traps The Doctor). Even though he plans to kill the entire Viking fleet(hardly thw actions of a childlike buffoon) he STILL manages to convince the Vikings that he is on their side. His "stupidity" can(and actually SHOULD BE) likened to the Second Doctor acting like a "simpleton" in say "The Dominators" or the Seventh Doctor's various times he acted less intelligent than he really is.

Third, when FASA came out, it didn't contradict anything. It ADDED continuity, but didn't contradict. Unlike the 90's novels. This exchange from DMP9:Golden Death SHOULD have been a wonderful case of good fortune as regards foreshadowing, but has been destroyed by all that Gallifrey 90210 nonsense:

("Monk" and Mavic Chen/Daleks discuss The Docor):

Mavic Chen: He(The Doctor) is a friend od yours?

Monk:Friend?No, no. An enemy! An enemy to end all enemies! I came here to inflict a terrible vengeance on him! I mean, we're all on the same side here, aren't we?

Mavic Chen:But he knows you?

Monk:Well...in a manner of speaking, yes... and again, in another manner of speaking, no.

Mavic Chen:Could you gain his confidence?

Monk:Certainly. Certainly. If you wanted me to. No question about it. No doubt at all.

Remember that "The Monk" immediately recognises The Doctor in "The Time Meddler" but not vice versa. Interestingly The First Doctor doesn't recognise The Ainley Master in "The Five Doctors" either! And if 'The Monk' was a new villain, how could he expect to gain the trust of someone who wasn't a childhood friend? In fact during "The Time Meddler" and "The Daleks Master Plan" The Doctor and 'The Monk' spend a lot of time actually quite playfully ruining each other's time machines. Sound familar? 41.132.117.234talk to me 18:58, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

History
So, let's get this right...Mortimus was a friend of The Doctor's when they were young. They went to school together where they were both part of the same group called The Deca. He was a childish, meddler who had interest in monks. The Doctor and Mortimus both left Gallifrey at around the same time, both stealing TARDISes. Some time later, The Doctor met Mortimus for the first time ever(as noted in the Discontinuity Guide), and Mortimus told the Doctor that he had left Gallifrey fifty years after the Doctor(despite nothing in the serial the Time Meddler stating as such). They completely failed to recognise each other, apart from the fact that the Monk called the Doctor "Doctor". Oh, and the Target novelisation making it perfectly clear that "the two old men instantly recognised each other". The Monk planned to wipe out an entire Viking fleet with nuclear warheads, because he is essentially a comical figure. The Doctor stranded him in 1066 by shrinking the interior of his TARDIS to the size of a small doll's house. Because the Monk is a foolish, childish figure who is nowhere as clever as he thinks he is, he was able to quickly repair his TARDIS, and track down the Doctor's TARDIS to a rock planet. After encountering Mavic Chen and the Daleks(with the Monk telling Chen that he knew the Doctor well), the Doctor stranded the Monk on an ice planet, having both taken the Monk's directional control circuit AND disabled the Monk's chameleon circuit. Because he is a childlike comical figure who always dresses like a monk(after all he is The Monk) he repaired the directional control, and met up with the Fifth Doctor at the North Pole, and this was the first time they had met since Ancient Egypt in the Daleks Master Plan. His TARDIS was however stuck in the form of a police box, despite the fact he had successfully repaired the chameleon cicuit in Daleks Master Plan(his TARDIS resembled a block of ice on the ice planet). He didn't dress like a monk, was never referred to as "Monk"(upper case) or "a monk"(lower case). He still looked like he did in Daleks Master Plan, despite the Doctor being more than 400 years older, and four regenerations on. The Fifth Doctor(travelling without any of Adric, Nyssa, Tegan, Kamelion, Peri or Turlough, but with an American from the World War II in the 60's called 'Gus') defeated "The Time Meddler" as he was known, killing The Time Meddler. He returned with his TARDIS trapped in the form of a portable public lavatory(because he was unable to repair it back in Ancient Egypt), badly burned from the North Pole, and still dressed as a monk, and called The Monk, and still the comical figure he always was. This encounter with the Seventh Doctor was the second time since Daleks Master Plan that the Doctor had met the Time Meddler, er, The Monk. Later, Mortimus(ie. neither The Monk nor The Time Meddler) travelled to the mid-70's where manned flights to Mars were commonplace since the 60's, but simple video technology doesn't exist. He meets the Seventh Doctor. This is the first time Mortimus has met the Doctor since The Daleks Master Plan. The Seventh Doctor thwarts his plan. Later, because he is such a comic, bumbling figure, the Eternal Death selects him to be her Champion. Despite The Master being Death's Champion. Because The Monk is a common childlike figure who is not clever at all, the CIA used him as an oprative, where he was responsible for the Legion's imprisonment. Later he wound up in a monastery in Ireland in the 11th Century with his TARDIS(one of only two that have ever been stolen), this bumbling childlike figure who is not half as clever as he thinks he is, was able to persuade two of the Doctor's companions to come to his side(oh, he thought he ahd persuaded Ace to do the same earlier, but the joke was on him all along). The Meddling Monk, as he has always been known, did however save Susan's life. What have I left out?
 * Paragraph breaks. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 10:16, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha. No seriously, is this what we are supposed to believe?
 * I suppose so. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 10:42, September 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep. Your summary is fairly succinct. Though this wiki isn't asking you to believe in anything, we're just presenting the information based on the sources cited on the page.
 * To see how we cover belief on this wiki though, you can check out our; Philosophy Myths and legends, Occult and Religion categories which hold several articles on belief and structures built around them. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:45, September 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think it was about beliefs as in religion/mythology. It struck me as more about the fact that The Monk(as an example) met The Doctor for the first time since Daleks Master Plan in 4-Dimensional Vistas. But then he later met The Doctor for the first time since Daleks Master Plan in No Future. Or the fact that the two were the same age, attended the Academy together were they were both part of the same gang, and left Gallifrey at the same time. Yet they later met for the first time ever in 1066, where The Monk supposedly he left Gallifrey fifty years after The Doctor. It is a hopeless mes of self-contradictions, impossibilities and logical flaws. Someone's beliefs are irrelevant. Someone trying to present that as a coherent biography would have no chance.

Contradictory paths? not anymore
In his recent appearance in Doom Colition 4, the Monk tells the Doctor that he's decided to not care about any grudges held by his past incarnations. This very neatly explains how the Monk that appears in Big Finish stories can be the same Monk that appeared in the New Adventures. I propose the biography section be reorganized to have The Time Meddler, then comics, then Daleks masterplan, then Death's Champion, then Hound, then Gardener, then post-Time War. CoT    ?  23:11, March 14, 2017 (UTC)
 * Ugh sounds like a lot of work. Are you up for creating a sandbox page that we can then place here or on the forum for suggestions? Shambala108 ☎  01:37, March 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * I make it sound worse than it actually is. It's really just a matter of removing the contradictory account system the article currently has and adding something like

With his regeneration, the Monk adopted a policy of separation between his incarnations. He dropped all grudges held by his past self and asked those that encountered him to consider the action should of his other selves as the actions of different people. (AUDIO: The Side of the Angels)
 * Also, because two incarnations of the Monk have met the Eighth Doctor, the Graeme Gardner section needs a new header. CoT     ?  17:29, March 17, 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, my experience with the Monk is limited to two serials and two novels, so I'll leave this up to you. Any heading changes you would need to make aren't a problem. Shambala108 ☎  00:27, March 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * They're a minor problem that can be easily fixed. Template:Garden. Last summer, this page got the Master treatment, so anyone that changes headers should be aware that they must also change the templates. CoT     ?  00:33, March 18, 2017 (UTC)
 * Huh, I did not know that. Shambala108 ☎  00:43, March 18, 2017 (UTC)

Chronology
Are we sure that the Rufus Hound Monk happens before the whole Lucy/Tamsin thing? Cause it makes sense to me that as its most recent it happened after (at least that's usually how Eighth Doctor stuff goes)

In the Third Doctor Adventures Volume 4, the Monk refers to one of the companions the Doctor has had as a “brassy bird from Blackpool” which suggests that the Hound Monk comes after the Garden Monk, unless the Hound Monk encounters Lucie at some point before the events of Series 4 of the Eighth Doctor Adventures or something, which I doubt. SarahJaneFan ☎

Main voice actor
While I don't think Hound or Garden are really significantly more "main" than the other, the reason for the change to Hound as main actor given by User:OncomingStorm12th isn't really true. Hound hasn't been in more stories as the Monk – they have appeared in 5 each, including 5 full-cast stories in the case of Garden and 3 full cast stories and 2 short trips in the case of Hound. And Hound hasn't played him longer – it's only been 3 years since his first appearance as the Monk while Garden has so far played him between 2010 and 2015. JagoAndLitefoot ☎  11:59, July 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I kind of agree they are both kind of "main". I switched them because I overlooked the fact that Garden also played the Monk in The Secret History. And by "longer" I was thinking of "lenght of stories" more than "time between first and final story in which they voiced the character". Anyways, I think it's okay to leave Garden there as "main" for now. OncomingStorm12th ☎  15:25, July 18, 2018 (UTC)

Mortimus vs. Lucie Miller
Question for experts: why is the Monk first Mortimus and then travels with Lucie Miller? The reason I'm asking is that in The Book of Kells he tells Tamsin Drew he's never been to Salzburg, while travelling with Lucie Miller, whereas Mortimus takes Antonio Salieri to Salzburg to kill Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in The Tramp's Story. Amorkuz ☎

Are the Monk and Mortimus the same character?
From the Target novelisation "The Time Meddler":

'Outside on the staircase the Monk appeared, holding a loft a burning torch. He regarded his captive's pathetic attempts at escape with evil amusement. Their eyes met and in that instant a flash of recognition passed between the two old men. The Monk threw back his head and laughed triumphantly. He had the Doctor in his power; nothing in the world could interfere with his plans now.'

And from the Target novelisation "The Mutation of Time(aka The Dalek's Mast Plan pt. 2":

'With a sinking feeling, he bent down to examine the underside of the mushroom-shaped console. There, dangling teasingly, were several wires...howling, the Monk examined them, and then straightened up.'The Doctor's done it again', he screamed. 'He's stolen my directional unit! I'll have to wander around in space and time as lost as he is!' Furiously, he kicked the console, and then winced with pain. Shaking his fist at the roof, he vowed:'I'll get you for this, Doctor! Somehow, someday - I'll get you for this!'

So,

a)The Monk and the Doctor clearly recognise each other instantly in 1066. b)The Monk is never stranded anywhere. Quite the opposite, he is destined to wander time and space with no control of his TARDIS. (If his TARDIS was 'stranded', he would never have been able to get TO the ice planet in the first place, obviously.)

'Mortimus' is a character who had never met the Doctor before Mediaevel England, and was stranded on an ice planet for a considerable period of time.

Only possible conclusion: Peter Butterworth's Monk from the Time Meddler and the Daleks' Master Plan & Paul Cornell's Mortimus from No Future are two entirely separate, unconnected characters.

If we bring Big Finish in, things get even stronger for this case..

In the Book of Kells, the Eighth Doctor mentions not having seen the Monk since the events of The Daleks' Master Plan.

Yet, the Sixth Doctor mentions a 'Mortimus' to the Rani in The Rani Elite.

Whoever, 'Mortimus' is then, he is not the same Time Lord as the character Peter Butterwroth played in The Time Meddler. Mortimus makes his first ever appearance in No Future. Clearly, he has met the Doctor "two or three times" before. And, prior to No Future, the Doctor must have stranded him on an ice planet. But this is clearly a story we do not know anything about yet.


 * Note that this anon is a user I have had encounters with before, and I have reason to suspect this post is merely a lure to drag us into yet another debate about whether the Monk, the War Chief, and the Master are the same person. If so I must point out that not acknowledging the connection from an in-universe perspective does not constitute a denial of that potential interpretation. I mean, we have a page on "Professor Stream" written as if he’s a new person, and I don’t think ANYONE seriously denies his status as the Master, we’re simply not allowed to say so out loud. But, if you are asking in good faith, and perhaps this is case of mistaken identity, as I did say it was a mere suspicion at this juncture, then I must most humbly apologise for casting doubt over your aspirations, but must respectful query as to how you account for all the stories in which the Monk/Mortimus appear in which he is referred to by both names and their identity is made abundantly clear with no room for reasonable doubt? 86.183.123.28talk to me 08:40, May 13, 2020 (UTC)

Ignoring your attack...can you name one story where Mortimus and the Monk are explicitly referred to as being one and the same?

>ignoring your attack

You know, you could have just denied it. By accusing me of ‘attacking’ you, you all but admit to wing the user I refer to, else, how have I attacked you? And, since you have admitted my suspicions, I see no more reason to continue with this waltz. Have a nice day! 86.183.123.28talk to me 09:05, May 13, 2020 (UTC)

Actually, you know what, we’re in quarantine, I have nothing better to do, so, just for a laugh, he’s referred to by both names (by himself, no less, who should hopefully know!) in The Persistence of Memory. You can see this, in, on the Google Books preview snippet. There, now, would you like to talk about The War Chief and/or the Master? After all, it’s no grand secret that’s what you’re REALLY doing here! 86.183.123.28talk to me 09:14, May 13, 2020 (UTC)

You seem to have an obsession with another poster. But, your link doesn't confirm or deny anything. It's just a snippet of...something.

Oh, dear, illiterate are we? You haven’t improved since I knew you from Doctor Who Answers Wiki. Still not signing your posts either, you could at least pretend to a different user. But, oh, pray enlighten me, what you think "It’s me! Mortimus! Or as you used to call me, The Meddling Monk!" means? I’ll wait. I have a feeling I’ll be waiting a very long time. 86.183.123.28talk to me 17:05, May 13, 2020 (UTC)


 * While I am not an admin, I'm just gonna pop in here and note Tardis: No personal attacks. You're completely right about this issue, and I'd hate to see you get blocked and the user here be satisfied because of it.Najawin ☎  18:20, May 13, 2020 (UTC)


 * All issues of personal attacks aside, while this was an interesting edge-case of "when can we definitively identify two characters" (I am reminded of the ongoing confusion at Talk:Trask (The Highlanders)), I'd personally say there's little more to say once we've seen a valid story having Mortimus mention how the Doctor knew him as the Meddling Monk. Mortimus was (despite continuity slip-ups) always intended to be the Monk, and we've got valid sources confirming that yep, he was the Monk all the time. What more do we want? This is getting into "if a story has the Doctor mention a companion named Clara without giving a last name, we should created Clara (Doctor Who and the Example) because we don't know it's Clara Oswald" territory. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  18:36, May 13, 2020 (UTC)