Howling:Theories on John Hurt

Does anybody have any theories about the role he will play? It's implied he is some kind of version of The Doctor, but the rest is completely open to speculation... 87.102.91.126talk to me 20:14, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I was hoping that it would be a modern incarnation of The Valeyard, but hey, at least he got mentioned by the intelligence. One theory I heard was that he is an incarnation in between the 8th and 9th, the one responsible for ending the time war. --Cadellin ☎  21:00, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of that theory, because we already know everything we need to about the time war. The Ninth Doctor's personality said it all. Going into more detail would make that aspect of Series 1 less effective. Although I do like the idea of an unknown incarnation that The Doctor would rather forget, if done right that would be a good direction to take the character.

However my theory is that he's a future Doctor. Considering that we saw a lot of The Doctor's past in the episode, I was wondering if we were going to see any of The Doctor's future, and when we saw John Hurt my first thought was that he was a future Doctor. Now I know that Eleven seemed to know something about Hurt, which would imply he is at least a version of The Doctor from the past, but remember The Doctor's line early in the episode about how he knew where his grave was because he's a time traveller - the same thing may apply to him knowing about Hurt. 87.102.91.126talk to me 21:45, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

87, "It's implied he is some kind of version of The Doctor": It's not implied, it's stated outright, both in dialogue & in the credits. The question, of course, is: Which incarnation is he playing?

Cadellin, "an incarnation in between the 8th and 9th, the one responsible for ending the time war": That's possible. However, it's also possible that Hurt is playing the Eighth Doctor & the difference in appearance is because of something that happened during the Time War.

Although I understand 87's fear that giving us more about the Time War might "make that aspect of Series 1 less effective", it all depends on what's revealed & how it's revealed. It easily could diminish what we saw of the Ninth Doctor but it doesn't absolutely have to. I can't work out how to reveal more about the Doctor's part in the Time War without doing damage but that doesn't mean Moffat can't. And, of course, we don't know that that's what he intends to do, anyway.

Right now, we don't have anything that can claim the status of a theory. What we have is guesswork. There's just not enough information for anything more. (I don't mean we should stop guessing; only that we ought to remember that what we're doing is guessing.) --89.242.70.9talk to me 22:31, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Eleven said "He's not The Doctor... But he is me." if I remember correctly. That's a bit too cryptic to be an outight statement.

By the way I've come up with a new theory - does anyone think he might have something to do with the Dream Lord? That would fit well with the line I quoted above, and remember what happened at the end of "Amy's Choice"? 87.102.91.126talk to me 23:06, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with the "older version of the Eighth" theory. If it were a future version of the Doctor, then the Eleventh's knowledge of the Unknown Doctor is a complete violation of Moffat's spoilers policy (which we see displayed yet again when River Song leaves a new mystery as she disappears). Furthermore, if it were the Valeyard, then I doubt the Unknown would have made the claim that he did things in the name of peace, etc. However, the idea that the Unknown is an aged version of the Eighth (especially if he were the version that created the time lock on the Last Great Time War) makes sense, since the Ninth Doctor was (supposedly) so different from the Eighth Doctor--something evidently changed him for the worse. It's also possible, of course, that the Unknown is a younger version of the First Doctor, before he took the name of "Doctor." Milar Kayne ☎  00:09, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

There is also the possibility of The Valeyard. "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration" (quote from The Master). It would also be an incarnation of himself which he has already encountered, though as the darker side of him. We are, after all, approaching the Twelfth… I suspect they will make some form of mention of The Valeyard's origins in the least, for continuity's sake.  I am the Lhikan! ( TaLk )  6   3   4  01:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

87: "... he is me," is an outright statement. The first bit may be cryptic & it leaves plenty of room for doubt about what kind of version of the Doctor he is but the whole thing is still a clear statement that he's some kind of version of him. It isn't implied, it's said.

Milar Kayne: One argument against the "younger version of the First Doctor" idea is that Hurt's character was described as having broken the promise signified by the name of "Doctor". You can't break a promise without first having made that promise. Another argument against it is that the destruction of Gallifrey & the Time Lords is such a huge burden on the Doctor that it's difficult to think of how there could have been something even worse, that early in his life, without it having shown up in his behaviour long before this. Neither argument is overpowering, of course.
 * You're right about it not being likely that the Unknown is pre-First, though I noticed a theory that the Time Lord known as the Other possibly being a pre-First version of the Doctor as well. Also, as I understand it, we know all too little about the First Doctor's younger days...it's conceivable that he might have had dark times as the First. However, I do feel that the "older Eighth" is much more plausible than the "younger First" theory. Just wanted to throw it out there. :) Milar Kayne  ☎  02:35, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Lhikan634: A "supernumary" incarnation (not one of the normal 13), like the Valeyard, is possible -- especially as we know very little about the events of the Time War. At one point, the Tenth Doctor spoke of an "army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres" in the Time War. Perhaps the "Hurt Doctor" is one of the "Never-Weres" -- a version of the Doctor that would never have existed, except that he was brought into existence in the course of the Time War. --89.242.70.9talk to me 01:16, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

I would personally feel let down if John Hurt is supposed to be an older 8th doctor. While John Hurt is an amazing actor, Paul McGann has expressed interest again and again about being in the new series in some form. Paul McGann is older now, so if they're gonna do an older 8th, it should have been the real older 8th. Anyone else with me on this? In other opinions, I think that the time war is likely for the following reason: The doctor's real name, which I assume John Hurt's character would be called by, was in the book "The History of the Time War" supporting that the promise breaking that they are talking about was during the war. --TheMaelstrom ☎  02:07, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

89: That is possible. Though it is a fan work, Devious conceived a "Second-and-a-Half Doctor, an interim incarnation who had his regeneration halted between the transition from 2 into 3, then eventually completed. But from the looks of this, we've got a real mindscrew at work. Is he Eight, Nine, a "halfer", meta-crisis, clone, or what?

TheMaelstrom: I am sad, too, if Paul gets shafted for this anniversary, but he could play Eight in his prime and lead up to the elderly, "geriatric" version of his incarnation Hurt plays. So pardon me if I hijack the boards, but let me run with this idea.

Is this the Eighth Doctor at the final leg of his incarnation? It would make for an interesting plot that is akin to real life human qualities. Eight has a good life until the battles of the Time War intercede with his peace-loving nature, slowly rotting away at his integrity until they reforge him into a war-poisoned extremest, who, much like a young soldier sent into battle, was initially wide-eyed, full of hope. A knight in sour armor, broken, bitter, and all the fight's knocked out of him. Then... he dies, and is reborn as Nine. Now physically younger, some of the fight and hope gets rebuffed with the newfound vigor. But this time, so is his rage. Paul portrays "Hopeful Eighth Doctor", and he's got the act down-pat in the audio stories. But if you're going to make such a drastic change to Eight's core personality, drafting in a new actor might be a deliberate act because the writers want the change to be that much more jarring. A gravelly voice instead of an eloquent Edwardian, cold, glassy eyes, genuine liver spots, and so much pain. They don't want him recognizable to the viewers and fans... because he's corrupted into something contrary to what we know- a Knight Templar abomination. Hurt is the "Bitter in Defeat Eighth Doctor", the curtain call of his life.

Also worth noting: Eight makes a slight wardrobe change to befit his serious attitude, donning a U-boat jacket coat clashing with that dressy cravat and waistcoat, mementos of happier times to get him through the war, the precursor to his impending regeneration, putting on new garb to forget the past. When he becomes Nine, he strips the outfit of everything that reeked of Eight (since Eight is the black sheep), but retains the jacket, as it reflects how he wanted a fresh start. Time to start a new life, and leave the Edwardian's clothes behind. Shed the identity of the traitor to the Doctor's namesake, and begin anew.

Yes, November will be a rocky wait for the definitive answer. Looks like I got a little poetic. I draft up scripts for my comic projects these days. --Thunderush ☎  02:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Thunderush: Another thing to think on supporting the Time War theory and the possibility that John Hurt is 8.5 or The Real 9: Until the episode "The Lodger", I do not think it was said in story that Matt Smith was the Eleventh Doctor. Sure, we all treated it as such because we count the regenerations, and in "The Next Doctor" we saw a lineup of the doctors to that point, but the numbers have only been acknowledged in the series recently. However, if John Hurt's character is The Doctor's secret, it is conceivable that in all of the times since "The Next Doctor" that we have seen the lineup, it was a lie. History outside the time lock (and the book in the TARDIS library) would have no record of this other doctor, and The Doctor would certainly omit this Doctor from the lineup as we saw it in his mind in The Nightmare in Silver.

Although, to argue in the other direction: Can one really repair a broken promise? If one cannot, then John Hurt's character must be later in the timeline. The acts that John Hurt's Doctor was describing could be anything. Mad and evil men often say that what they do is done in the name of peace and harmony to justify their actions. Matt Smith's Doctor could simply know him because he was exposed to his future while standing beside his time rift. So much to think about! --TheMaelstrom ☎  02:29, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

TheMaelstrom: That's quite the headscratcher for the ages. It's too much to wrap your head around the answer. I like your question about fixing a broken promise. So many story elements could be born from that idea! Also, I refute my claim it's an older 8- I caught a glimpse of McGann's doctor at the start of the finale. 8.5 or 12, this new Doctor is a ticking plot bomb. --Thunderush ☎  03:06, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Thunderush, "this new Doctor is a ticking plot bomb": Regardless of what else we argue about, I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you there. --89.242.70.9talk to me 07:23, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I think it would be good if he turned out to be the First Doctor, instead of 9 or 12 or whatever else everyone is speculating. I'm partly thinking that because I'm hoping Moffat will take the character in a direction nobody has guessed - and I haven't seen any people speculating that he might be the First Doctor.

Well, apart from one person above... But they're the first I've seen. 87.102.91.126talk to me 08:36, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone considered the possibility that he's the Meta-Crisis Doctor? As we know, he committed genocide, much to The Doctor's dismay, and he also ages as a Human does. It's all a bit timey-wimey, but there's only one version of Rose that could be in the 50th, and since she's now connected to the Meta-Crisis Doctor, it would make sense. Somehow..? Gallifrey102 ☎  12:45, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...that's an interesting idea. The only problem is that at least seven other people know/knew about the Meta-Crisis Doctor: Donna Noble, Martha Jones, Jack Harkness, Rose and Jackie Tyler, and Sarah Jane and Mickey Smith. I've gotten the impression that the Doctor is the only one who really knew about his secret before he showed it to Clara, but I might be wrong. Good thought! Milar Kayne ☎  14:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

All this talk about him being an older version of 8 is a bit far fetched to me - it seems quite obvious that he is an incarnation from the doctors past the doctor would rather forget - now we have seen 1 regenerate through to 8 and 9 regenerate through to 11, so its clear Hurt places between 8 and 9. Now he cant be an older version of 8, as Clara said "I saw all 11 versions of you" if he was an older 8, he'd be an 8 never the less and invalidate Clara's statement - No, as the Doctor said, he is not a Doctor, but is a version of him - now based on what we know and have seen, both 9 and 10 suffered survivors guilt - something the doctor did obviously spooked him, something ths incarnation did! which was so severe made 9, 10 and 11 wipe him from memories. Now its all to do with the name, as the master said "The Doctor, The man who makes people better" or there abouts - clearly this doctor didnt make everyone better, but as a guess, killed a lot of people (the whole time lord race) which pretty much goes against everything a doctor strives to do and goes agans the name of the doctor - --90.220.11.198talk to me 13:33, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

We should not forget this: "the glowing tree" = his own personal timeline, past and future, and everything that resulted from it." This means this timeline was created (by the doctor?), but can (maybe) also manipulated by the doctor. Or things were left out by the doctor. This could mean that Clara didnt know of this doctor, because this is not his achievement. It was done by a doctor which broke his promise, and the doctor burried it in time itself, never to be revealed. I support in genereal the theory that this doctor stopped the timewar, and gridlocked it, because at this specific time he went insane by the actions of his own kind, and all other which didnt listen to him. Remember how mad/resigned the 10th doctor was at the end of time, where it was revealed what the TimeLords planned > rip the time vortex apart. Maybe this was the reason for him to going over the edge and ending it all. And after that, he sees the as the burning, he is sad, because he saved all creatures in the whole galaxy, but is the last of his kind. -TheRealDoctor(not registered)- 19.05.13 15:00

I don't think he's 8 in any way - were he, I doubt the Doctor would acknowledge the existence of that entire regeneration, not just segment out a part of it as having broken the promise. I do think he fits neatly into the space between 8 and 9, though, during the Time War. He seems like he knew he had done something immensely wrong, even though it was 'in the name of peace and sanity,' which fits in quite nicely with what we know about the massacre the end of the Time War was. It also fits in with the whole not calling him the Doctor as he was a bit of a warrior - might this be the Storm that Mr. G. Intelligence referred to, the reason the Daleks once referred to the Doctor as the Oncoming Storm?

As for whether a promise broken can be fixed, I think it was Ten that said that some new man saunters away - a man who can either uphold the promise of the name the Doctor and become him, or someone who can go an entirely different direction and break the promise. The actions of each incarnation depend whether or not that incarnation holds up the promise and gets to be called the Doctor. --Scieran ☎  14:03, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

The question for me is: The timeline databank from the doctor. Did the doctor left out the achievement from "john hurt"-doctor, because he broke the promise. Was this even done by himself or another person(?). AND the TARDIS window is cracked on the graveyard, and on the TARDIS in small, does this show us that the end is near. Or maybe that he changes in a story to his dark side (9th and 10th had fury moments) and travels through a crack in time back and stops all while mad. We could also discuss the possibility of an alternate doctor, which happened once. And he had a daughter, so there are some unusual ways which could produce a weird doctor....I know the last bit is not reasonable. -TheRealDoctor(not registered)- 19.05.13 15:12

He's clearly kept the information about this guy secret - even Mr. Clever, the Cyber Planner, wasn't aware of that regeneration (I'm going off the belief this is a past regeneration, not a future one, which I'll get to in a minute). Which means the Doctor keeps him locked away in his mind and can decide what others can get at information wise. If he existed entirely within the Time War, no one else would ever have to know he existed or what he did - so the Doctor could keep it a secret, his greatest secret.

Now, I believe this guy is a past regeneration, not something yet to happen. At this point in his existence, I think Moffat's going to play around and make Smith the last regeneration. By inserting Hurt in there, he bumps Smith to the 12th regeneration, and Handy burns off another regeneration (I recently rewatched the Journey's End episode, and both Ten and Handy talk like he used an entire regeneration up in doing what he did - he just didn't change his features because he had somewhere to shift that energy off to) moving Smith to 13. The reason the damage is still on the TARDIS and the desktop theme is the current one is because the Doctor really is coming to his final days... And Moffat's going to do something to deal with that and make sure he can live on in perpetuity... --Scieran ☎  14:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been wondering about that too, though I'm not sure I agree with the idea of Hurt being an extra regen. However, I do think it quite likely that Moffat will sometime answer the question of how to count the partial regeneration that formed the Meta-Crisis (aka Handy). As I said above, the "Fall of the Eleventh" prophecy makes things difficult, unless Trenzalore is actually from the Doctor's past (i.e. David Tennant's time), so I expect that the Doctor has another regeneration left before becoming the Twelfth and the Valeyard, who apparently never goes on to become the Thirteenth. Milar Kayne ☎  17:19, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Gave the whole episode some thoughts and found some interesting (possible) traps. Time travel in your dreams is possible. So what if the Valeyards falsified the memories of the doctor by creating a dark and twisted doctor which ended the timewar. This would explain why the "john hurt"-doctor is not in the timeline tree which all of the doctors achievements are in it. Another possibility would be that the Valeyard send back minor thoughts which differed only slightly from the doctors thoughts with the end result of a dark twisted doctor. Which even now treatens him and torments him in his mind. So the Valeyard could offer the doctor (in exchange for the leftover generations) to free him from this thoughts, to forget him in full.

The best theory i came up with is: The "John Hurt"-Doctor saw his possible future, the future which would happen if he dont act, and stop the war. A future with the Valeyard in it. With the TimeLord Victorious. A dark future, a dark timeline for the whole galaxy. So he could only safe the universe by staining himself, by becoming the person who broke the promise of a doctor. But he could never tell his future self, and could not forgive himself, because this would "corrupt the timelines" or "corrupt himself" into a person which sees people as sacrifies for the greater good (timelord victorious again) and becoming a new kind of Valeyard which would create an utopia timeline by sacrificing people. So before the regeneration, he was (in my opinion) quite/a human. He used a device similiar to the "chameleon arc" device, so his brain would think differently, and his thoughts would be not inside of the next doctor (himself). He would only see after the regeneration what he had done, the consequences without the real reasoning. And by doing that he is trying to help the universe as his aments to all species in the galaxy, and saving the galaxy forever, stopping the End of Time, the Valeyard and all in it. A tragical doctor, and i think John Hurt can pull this kind of acting off (this would be very hard to act!!). TheRealDoctor ☎  15:40, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * OK so one thing that ruins this Doctor being the real 9 or a pre first is how the cyberplanner said that the doctors brain went through ten regenerations and that wasn't accessing the memory just a scan of the brain I believe.But if this is the real 9th and handy counts as 12 then were on 13 so... is handy or puddy doc the valeyard?   16:11, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sooo how would the cyberplanner read the previous giveaway from regenerative energy to his hand before and the time he gave river some energy for healing...hmm? I wouldnt count the cyberplanner as a great source of accuracy. You should also read/comment my statement above yours, this gives at least an explanation for the "hidden" (possible) memory. TheRealDoctor ☎  16:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * We're not told for sure that David Tennant's partial regeneration counts as a separate regen, since his cells didn't necessarily change. Thus, the Cyberplanner could still be right about his evaluation of the Doctor's brain yet not include the Meta-Crisis circumstances. Also, I think we can be reasonably sure that Handy is not the Valeyard, since Handy was not able to regenerate and was only a meta-crisis, rather than a Time Lord. Furthermore, the Valeyard evidently came after the Thirteenth Doctor, as shown by his TARDIS. Milar Kayne ☎  17:19, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Valeyard was specifically said to come between 12 and 13. If he were some sort of dark-side persona that manifested during a regeneration, then he would know the faces of both the 12th and the 13 Doctors. Anyway, it seems clear that Hurt is a past Doctor, since 11 know about what he did. Yes, 11 is a time-traveller, but he seems to speak to Hurt with personal knowledge of him, which would make since if 11 actually lived through Hurt's incarnation in the Past. Since we never saw Hurt on-screen, it makes sense to place him in the Time War that happened between the two shows. Perhaps he is an alternate 9th Doctor? -- Bold  Clone  19:01, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I like your idea of an alternate Ninth more than the idea of a lost Ninth. Though it implies that somehow the Ninth, Tenth, and/or Eleventh Doctor(s) somehow met this alternate version of the Ninth. Personally, I think that his being an older Eighth is the best explanation so far. Milar Kayne ☎  19:07, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

What if the promise and the crime is something on a far smaller scale and more personal. Something that lead to a tragedy in his family which he caused. Why did the first doctor run away with his granddaughter? What happened to her parents? Were they dead before the doctor ran? Who killed them and why? Was there and incarnation before the first that did something so terrible that he had to run away from it.

Another "Doctor"?
Is it possible (I'm not saying probable!) that The Doctor isn't the first or only person named The Doctor and, in fact, he named & modeled himself after another Gallifreyan called The Doctor who would later go on dreadful things? Heck, for all we know, it could be his father.

I haven't read all of the novels (has anyone?) and I'm sure this goes against the narrative of some of the ones that are about his early life. But considering that even works within the accepted DWU canon don't agree with each other (he has a human mother vs. he was created from a loom?!), I think it would be okay to create a new character from his early life for the purposes of storytelling. Remember, this is new Doctor exists right now in his life timeline, we don't know where along the way he encountered "our" Doctor. Badwolff ☎  20:10, May 19, 2013 (UTC)