Category talk:Non-heterosexual real world people

Concerns about citations
Much as I’m glad to see such a category - having even started working up a plan for this - I am rather surprised by the lack of citation for the vast majority of people who have been added to this category.

I believe it was noted when I first raised the matter of introducing such a category, that it would have to be handled with the utmost care with regards to citations such that we are entirely accurate in how we present real-world people, particularly in instances of people no longer with us.

As such; I’m wondering how we should approach this: Should all uncited individuals in the category be removed until they can be cited? Should they be given citation needed notes on their respective pages? JDPManjoume ☎  15:50, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't understand the need for categories like this? Why must we divide people due to their sexuality or gender identity? I don't see the practical need. Also, there are a lot of people who do not like to be labeled, myself included, how do we treat people like this? RadMatter ☎  17:02, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Okay, as I created the Category, I will address the concerns.


 * @JDPManjoume, I added all the pages into this category by using Queer representation in Doctor Who; there, a lot of individuals are cited as being non-heterosexual, IIRC. These citations are simply just not reflected on the individual pages.


 * @RadMatter, while I see where you are coming from, there is a genuinely good use for this category, in my eyes. In the situation that one is researching the non-heterosexual individuals who contributed to Doctor Who works, having all the pages neatly collated in a category proves immensely useful; I've seen many a person research this type of thing, so I believe, just on these grounds, the category should be retained, though I am sure there are many more arguments to be made for this category's existence. 📯 📂 23:19, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I personally don't think that is a good enough reason for the category's existence. If someone is looking for non-hetrosexual people surely they can research an individual person? We don't have categories for real-world people based on skin colour or race (to my knowledge) or many other traits, and I think that is wise. All this category does is divides people and - most offensively - acts as if hetrosexual is the "norm". RadMatter ☎  23:30, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


 * While heterosexual isn't the norm, it is certainly perceieved as such. Regardless of that, while there are certainly more pages that could be added to this, the sheer amount of pages in it attest how little non-het (and similarly non-cis) people are even involved in big franchises like Who.
 * A bit "potAto, potatO", but what you call "divide" I call "uplift, highlight". A category like this is good because queer writers and authors will inevitably and often have the way the interact with their work influenced/nuanced by the fact that they're queer. There are essays (covered by this very wiki) on this subject. There are podcasts being produced by people on this category about this very subject.
 * As the person who's guilty of having added pages to here without sourcing the info, I apologize, and will amend this by tomorrow, if no one gets to this before me. But matter of fact is: a useful category it is. OncomingStorm12th ☎  01:43, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Well it shouldn't be perceived as such, and categories like this only reinforce that. Having a category that just clumps a whole bunch of people together based on something like sexuality is ridiculous. Especially as it highlights a certain individual who is seriously intolerant of others in the group/category. RadMatter ☎  12:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

As with all categories on this wiki, it does require inclusion in the article first. In this case, that also means sources. As for this coverage somehow being "intolerant", that's a complete misunderstanding of what labels are for.

(Those who don't actually need them like to imagine they're constraining. For those of us who do, it's both enlightening and empowering to know there are words for it. In any case, this is for self-identified cases.) 17:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * (Oh I understand who you're taking about now. But we don't pretend someone's straight just because we don't like them. This is not an ideological category: it's descriptive. existing doesn't mean we throw the whole concept of transness out the window, for instance.) 17:51, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Just so we are clear going forward, I am a member of the LGBT community - not that I should have to state this - so the generalisation that straight people are the ones who would have a problem with this category while LGBT people would find it "empowering" is false.


 * I am not suggesting that we should "pretend someone's straight just because we don't like them". I am saying that I would prefer everyone into a single real world people category and can't understand why people with an alternate sexuality have to be split off. RadMatter ☎  20:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I too am against categorising real-world people by sexuality and don't think it's any more appropriate than having a category for non-white real-world people. I can at least understand why we have this category for fictional characters, but I don't see any reason to mark and group people involved in the DWU based on who they enjoy having sex with. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  20:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't wish to go heavily on detail into this yet, as again, I'd hoped this was something we'd run rather thoroughly through in a Forum discussion one day... but to again try to contextualise this in whatever brevity I can, from the perspective of myself as a gay man of colour, whilst expanding on what Epsilon has said: I very much see a merit in having a category for much of a similar reason as I see merit in the real-world coverage detailed within the 'Sexuality' and 'Queer representation in Doctor Who' pages. Sexuality certainly isn't a be-all end-all of one's existence, and labelling accurately is a complicated matter (hence why my planned future proposal had settled with the 'non-heterosexual' phrasing for less complication... but it does serve an important purpose in the same kind of manner as the fictional character category. It provides for a handy reference list of these individuals under one category for anyone wishing to research the representative history of Doctor Who from a production perspective, and often provides suitable background context to either those individual's work (Patrick Ness, Paul Magrs and Scott Handcock come to mind as three immediate examples in which it's topical) or the work environment in which they were within. Or even in their wider life - Ian McKellen and Michael Cashman are two instances in which further expansion of cast biographies in future is likely to cover their founding of Stonewall in some depth. I rather feel safe to say that there is a definite measure of discussion and value in such a list, because this discussion has been somewhat touched upon in an official venue - with an episode of The Fan Show that focused upon this & featured Waris Hussein talking about the fact that there was a much more restrained situation for himself and other non-heterosexual production members in terms of putting that into their works. We, of course, aren't Wikipedia and nor do we exactly need to run by their example... but I would say that I have personally found significant benefit from their categories in this kind of vein. (And it would certainly be much nicer to categorise them, rather than just having to hammer all these individuals into the 'Queer representation in Doctor Who' page.)

Putting all that to the side, my point of questioning was re. the sourcing. This is because I am somewhat wary of how we approach writing biographies on real-world people. @Epsilon, I appreciate that clarification but I would think we need these things noted onto those pages too. Particularly as it will help fellow editors discern what has been added uncited from what has been added with citation. Peter Wyngarde and Dursley McLinden come to mind as two individuals currently within this category that are contentious without upfront citations. I feel we need that in two regards - the immediate matter of clarity for claim citation on real-world pages... and also because having those references upfront would make sense for the benefit of someone researching the topic as is. I am certainly happy to try and help with what ones I can. (I actually started some work a while ago on a Sandbox page to collate references of this nature, for future usage in a Forum discussion about this matter) JDPManjoume ☎  15:42, 25 January 2022 (UTC) PS - Apologies all for the textwall layout of my comments. It appeared as paragraphs blocked out when I previewed it, but now hasn't committed to the page that way. JDPManjoume ☎  15:45, 25 January 2022 (UTC)