Talk:The Valeyard/Archive 1

User:Finister2
I think, whoever plays the Twelfth Doctor will play the Valeyard during the Thirteenth Doctor's adventures.

Dream Lord
Since the Dream Lord has been compared to the Valeyard, it seems reasonable to speculate that maybe he's created as a result of the incident in Amy's Choice, but remains a subconscious part of the Doctor and doesn't manifest as an entity until sometime between the Doctor's 12th and final incarnations. Just a thought, as it would seem to fit quite nicely at both ends, as it were. Then again, I know next to nothing of the Valeyard, so I could be way off :P -- Sorceror Nobody 18:23, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

I new of the character but not alot, I suppose the Dream Lord could be the The Valeyard as to have to dark sides that are so addament on defeating you does strike me as slightly odd. Danisfunny 18:28, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

as much as I would like the Dream Lord to be the Valeyard, we have to face facts; they come from different backgrounds. The Valeyard was specifically stated to have come between the Doctor's 12th and 13th Incarnations whereas the Dream Lord is the essence of the Doctor's darker side in a dream state, so cannot exist in reality. Everyone is basically wanting it to happen as we want to see the Valeyard back for continuity, as do I, but the Dream Lord isn't The Valeyard Ooiue 07:16, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Solar Dragon added a discussion of this to the article, which I think belongs there.


 * Then anon IP 86.26.174.123 reverted it.


 * Then Mini-mitch re-added it.


 * Then anon IP 83.131.105.211 reverted it again.


 * I added it back. However, I think it might be better to just remove the line "The Valeyard and the Dream Lord may be the same person" than to leave it and explain why it's unlikely.


 * Hopefully no one will change it again without some discussion here.


 * Anyway, here's what the article says right now:


 * The Valeyard shares similarities with the Dream Lord, who is also the dark side of the Doctor. The Valeyard and the Dream Lord may be the same person. This is unlikely as the Eleventh Doctor says the Psychic Pollen which created the Dream Lord is a mind parasite, and therefore is simply a microscopic alien using the Doctor's mind to create a mental form.


 * --Falcotron 13:07, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course that didn't settle it. In fact, we ended up with two different and conflicting discussions of the Dream Lord, one under Notes and one under Behind the Scenes. At one point, one paragraph almost blatantly asserted that the Valeyard was a future form of the Dream Lord while the other dismissed it completely. That was fun.


 * I tried to merge the two of them together, and to leave in enough of the argument that the Valeyard might actually develop out of the Dream Lord that hopefully people won't see the need to keep adding it back in.


 * But really, it would be nice if people would discuss contentious things on the Talk page rather than keep changing the article back and forth.... --Falcotron 00:56, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

A conundrum
I've just thought of something....if the Valeyard really is the dark side of the Doctor between 12 and 13, then why is it he went back to Trial of a Time Lord to try and put his earlier half-self on trial if he had all the memories of that event? i say half-self because he partly is the Doctor and partly isnt. If he possessed all the memories of the Doctor which is likely, why did he go to the trouble of going to Trial of a Time Lord in the first place if he knew he would lose?Ooiue 07:24, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * History can be changed. --Falcotron 13:08, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Finister2 - Perhabs the regeneration that created the Valeyard cause short term amniseia, preventing the Valeyard of remebering most of his life as the Doctor.
 * The Valeyard changed history. In the original time line, Trial of a Timelord didn't happen, so the Valeyard didn't remember it. He went back in his own timeline, changing history during the events of Trial of a Timelord.Icecreamdif 01:05, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

So, wait, um...
How does this work with the events of Impossible Astronaut? --Mikalosa209 03:47, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * WOAH! WOAH! WAIT STOP! You didn't actually believe for one single second that he was actually dead did you? I mean, it's wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that THEY PULLED THIS TRICK ON US BEFORE! (TV: The Stolen Earth/Journey's End,  COMIC: The Final Chapter, Wormwood) OttselSpy25 talk to me 23:22, October 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * A better point to make might be: How does this work with the Big Bang Two? I'm pretty sure we haven't seen the end of the continuity that the Moff pulled out from under us (and, looking at the Daleks, to slide something interesting right back in there) with that one.--ComicBookGoddess ☎  04:57, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

unrelated topic.
Hi, this is my first discussion, so please go easy on me haha!

I thought I would start a discussion on something I felt might not have been discussed before. We all know the amazing 11 actors who have portrayed the Doctor since its inception in 1963. But of course, there are much lesser known characterisations and I was wondering if we could compile a list between us of these unsung actors.

Firstly, there is of course the wonderful Peter Cushing, who played the Doctor (another version of William Hartnell's character, as the Doctor hadn't 'renewed/regenerated' at this point) in the 2 Dalek films from the 1960's).

Then, I've heard that Trevor Howard (who I know best from the classic Brief Encounter) played the Doctor in a stage play - and apparently regenerated at the beginning! Of course, this isn't 'canon,' so I won't get excited about how this effects continuity ;-)

There's people like Rowan Atkinson, who played him in a spoof in the '90's, and various evil 'strains' of the Doctor that have been presented, such as the Dreamlord in the recent series and the Valeyard from the time of the 6th Doctor.

Any more obscure characterisations?

Thanks for a great page!

Tim


 * This seemed to be more of something for a blog. --OS24 01:49, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Valeyard Chronology
This is my first talk as well, so, if I've screwed something up, that's why.

What I wonder is if the Valeyard is a) an *actual* incarnation of the Doctor, meaning we'll see him again, and/or b) will the Valeyard occur no matter what?

Is the Valeyard one of the Doctor's 13 forms? Every description of him begins with 'a manifestation of his dark side between his 12th and 13th incarnations,' but doesn't explain whether this is simply a bit of his dark side that gained semi-concrete form (like the Dream Lord [though, in the case of the Valeyard, there was no explanation as to how he came to be]) or his *actual* final incarnation. I personally do hope so, if only because that would be one heck of an interesting episode (say the 12th Doctor had to stop something the 13th Doctor [Valeyard] does in his own timeline).

With regards to b) in my first blurb, it doesn't seem right: yes, the Doctor has some inner darkness (a bit of taunting as Lord President as the 4th Doctor, ready to murder the Space Whale as the 11th, beyond loathing of the Daleks as the 11th) and once in a while loses control ("A Good Man Goes to War"), but he is willing to sacrifice himself for a friend (9th and at least twice as the 10th) or the entire universe (the 11th); although quirks and idiosyncrasies change after regenerations, core elements of a Time Lord's personality remain the same (or at least so claims Wikipedia). Why then would someone perfectly willing to sacrifice himself become so evil in the face of death? He hasn't before.

Note: the 9th Doctor does claim to be able to see all possible futures when Rose has the Time Vortex in her head during his final episode, so it's possible he always did know he *might* survive, and, as the Valeyard, realizes death is unavoidable as it's his final incarnation.

With regards to the 'Is the Dream Lord the Valeyard?' discussion above, the Valeyard is repeatedly said to be a manifestation of the Doctor's dark side. Whether or not he is also an incarnation, he is the Doctor's dark side, just like the Dream Lord; they both come from the same place. While I doubt they are the same person (e.g., that the Valeyard would retain the Dream Lord's personality/memories), they have the same source.

Regards,

Daniel

Novelization vs TV
Another wrinkle in figuring out the Valeyard is the novelization of Ultimate Foe has the the Master state "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration". This is where part of where the whole Valeyard = 13th incarnation of Doctor theory comes from.--216.31.124.190talk to me 04:43, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

In the televised version, the line is "Twelfth and Final" and not Thirteenth. A technical matter, but whatever. The question is whether the novelization takes precedence over the televised story.75.191.239.179talk to me 00:26, May 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * If they contradict each other, the television story takes precedence over the novelization. Shambala108 ☎  00:36, May 7, 2013 (UTC)

And of course, in the episode what the Master says is that "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you. The Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation."

The "theory" that the Valeyard is an actual future incarnation and not merely the Doctor's evil given form, albeit the evil of a future version, is something only hinted at in the novelization. Not the actual broadcast of The Ultimate Foe.75.191.239.179talk to me 18:29, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Ok so this Valeyard can be the doctor and not necessarily an incarnation of the doctor at the same time. Does anyone remember the hand of the doctor that was cut off??? it regenerated into a copy of the Tennant doctor ravaged by war, this doctor could easily end up as the older and volatile john hurt doctor. just because he was left in a parallel universe does not mean that he didn't create himself another Tardis and sidestep back into ours as this Valeyard, meaning all of the doctors are true and also gives way to this nemesis being made manifest now that is the more likely answer as although he is in the doctors history he technically isn't one of the doctor previous regenerations only a copy of one and by all theories not the doctor at all. (looks like this is 2.97.69.63)

I agree with Shambala--any reason not to make that change? Apparently the use of the quote from the novelization ("somewhere between your twelfth and final regeneration"), rather than that of the TV episode ("somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation") is a source of confusion. For clarification, seems better to use the quote from the TV episode on this page, rather than the novelization. Andbeonetraveler ☎  02:40, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Video clip
Should this clip be added to the page? link removed per Tardis:Video policy --72.200.81.210talk to me 04:01, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want to suggest a video link for a page, you can add it at Tardis talk:Video recommendations. Thanks! Shambala108 ☎  04:07, October 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * I should add, that any video link must not contain spoilers for unreleased stories, per Tardis:Spoiler policy. Shambala108 ☎  04:09, October 31, 2013 (UTC)

The Night of the Doctor
With the slotting in of John Hurt after Paul McGann, being iteration #9, and then having the three regular Doctors of the revival, it seems that the "darkness" that the Valeyard was created from, between #12 and #13 is the darkness drawn out from The Name of the Doctor, being John Hurt's "War Doctor" darkness. -- 70.24.244.51talk to me 19:12, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

Should it be mentioned somewhere on the page, perhaps the trivia section, that vieillard is French for "old man"? 50.46.152.131talk to me 06:16, November 20, 2013 (UTC)

The Time of the Doctor
Now that the Doctor has been granted a new set of regenerations, this would seem to put the idea of the Valeyard to rest once and for all. I think this notion should mentioned somewhere in the article, if only in the behind the scenes section. My own personal theory is that the Valeyard was merely one possible future for the Doctor. I don't think he was meant to be set in stone, much like the Doctor's fate at Trenzalore. Thoughts? Slughorn42 ☎  02:31, December 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * It sounds like speculation to me and I am fairly sure that isn't allowed on articles. Besides, the Valeyard was said to exist between the Twelfth and Final incarnations, given the ambiguity of the word "final", considering that final originally was originally believed to be the 13th Doctor, than other stuff happened and it ended actually be the 11th Doctor, now more stuff has happened and it is the 23rd Doctor, I don't think it can said with any certainty that the book on the Valeyard is closed, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, the point is that is it speculative. - The Light6 ☎  02:51, December 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * During experimentation to break the 13 Doctor (12 regeneration) limit. So final did mean, back then (due to context), the final incarnation of a regular Doctor's regeneration cycle.
 * That being said, it's stated that the Doctor didn't believe most of what the Valeyard claimed, so they have a LOT of leeway should they wish to bring him back. Perhaps he was created as a cast-off in the first new regeneration, or maybe Donna wouldn't literally die if she remembers the Doctor, she'd become the Valeyard. Or maybe even the Meta-crisis Doctor is going to become the Valeyard. Or something entirely different. The Valeyard was left ambiguous and deceptive to give the series lee-way and not set the characters/events in stone. LordSchmee ☎  10:47, January 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't believe that the events of The Time of the Doctor prove that the Valeyard is non-canon. Why? Well, let's take a look at all the Doctor's regenerations:
 * Hartnell → Troughton
 * Troughton → Pertwee
 * Pertwee → T. Baker
 * T. Baker → Davison
 * Davison → C. Baker
 * C. Baker → McCoy
 * McCoy → McGann
 * McGann → Hurt
 * Hurt → Eccleston
 * Eccleston → Tennant
 * Tennant → Handy
 * Tennant → Smith
 * What the "version between the eleventh and final regeneration" one day turn out actually to be Handy? TheMostBoringManInTheWorld   (talk)  15:00, January 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Going off the article, it's not from between his "eleventh and final regeneration", it's from between his "twelfth and final incarnation". Now that he has another 12 regenerations, his "final incarnation" should be the one after his 23rd regeneration, incarnation 24. Or 25, if he includes the meta-crisis, or a lower number if he gives up regenerations or half-regenerates again. That does include the War Doctor, since he knows the War Doctor wasn't a monster. I believe Smith, not Tennant was the 12th incarnation, since meta-crisis was a separate entity. BrentNewland ☎  06:03, August 29, 2014 (UTC)