Forum:Coverage/validity: A Better World

Opening post
It was recently ruled that charity stories that have commercial licenses for all DWU elements that they use are eligible to be covered as valid sources on this wiki. Based on this, I think that A Better World should be both covered and valid as writer Aristide Twain, better known on this wiki as Scrooge MacDuck, obtained a commercial license from Jayce Black for Auteur and was careful to use veiled stand-ins for any BBC-owned elements. Cgl1999 ☎  21:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

 * No.


 * This story uses far too much unlicensed material to even come close to be considered for valid coverage. Shan Shan, the Brigade, Donna Noble, Time Vortex. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  21:47, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I would like to make a note for the record that I didn't view my closure on that thread as applying to this story — which wasn't technically excluded for being a charity work (which the Gallery wasn't really). If I had, I wouldn't have been within my rights to close it. A better World and the Fan Gallery as a whole were always their own beast. If memory serves the original thread which voted the Fan Gallery off the Wiki left the door open for a Better World inclusion debate, it's only that (very understandably) no one ever got round to it.

And indeed, in my opinion A Better World in its current form probably doesn't belong on the Wiki (as a valid source, anyway — it … would presumably be a source for Auteur/Non-valid sources? — but that's not up to me). I wrote it in the FPesque "thinly-veiled" style as an aesthetic choice, but I was nevertheless labouring under the misconception that the Fan Gallery was BBC-endorsed, and so freely name-dropped a few things which I never would in a purely standalone work. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:52, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I thought that this story might be eligible for coverage if those charity stories were because the page for Auteur says that it was disqualified from coverage due to the Lockdown Fan Gallery being a non-commercial medium of release. Cgl1999 ☎  21:59, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's quite understandable. I'm contextualising the arcana, not chiding you for not having realised something obvious! Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * It's just that the way you talked about it made it seem like you practically wrote it so that it could be covered by this wiki. Cgl1999 ☎  22:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * While we're here, let me just note that Corrie's comment above is premised on a misunderstanding we should nip in the bud here and now. It's explicit policy that the IU elements may be in some sense "unlicensed" if they're referred to in a way that they're blurry. See Ceol and Kelsey Hooper. We'd have to talk about Donna being "A Noble Woman", etc etc, instead, but this isn't grounds for disqualification.


 * The issue is, again, that Scrooge thought that this project was BBC approved rather than just something Cook did for people to post fanfic during quarantine, so it changes things a bit. Najawin ☎  22:16, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * You don't have to nip anything in the bud regarding what I've "misunderstood". There was no "blurry" reference to Donna, rather the text stated it explicitly. Her first and second names were given in the story - repeatedly, as was "Donna's World". What is so blurry about those clear references? Faction Paradox stories which actually blur the lines, like Ceol, do not go that hard on the reference.


 * Scrooge's misunderstanding that these were for the BBC changes absolutely nothing. He knew at the time of writing that they were fanfiction. Therefore there is no authorial intent for this story to be considered valid. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  22:29, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I think there's enough leeway in how it's described that you could easily make a case, your view here is far too extreme. But I wouldn't, and Scrooge himself isn't. Najawin ☎  22:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Nah. This story was created with the knowledge that it was fanfiction, there was no authorial intent for it to be valid. The use of unlicensed material is so strong - there's hardly any blurry lines - that there's literally no possibility for a case. This isn't a situation where Ceol Hooper meets up with her old friend Maria (which is ambiguous). This story is literally just a retelling of Turn Left with a few words changed in an attempt to get it covered. This red-headed Donna character (with the name "Noble") being attacked by a beetle of the brigade is not ambiguous in the slightest. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  22:47, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * You're somewhat misdescribing the situation about her name there. And see your comments as to the Brigade or the idea of a Christmas Star. These are fairly generic terms. Again, I'm not gonna try to defend it. Scrooge isn't. But I think it's not as bad as you're suggesting. (Still not great.) Najawin ☎  23:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * You accuse me of misdescribing a situation but then refuse to defend it. That's ridiculous, show me how I am misrepresenting something or don't throw out the accusation.


 * The story literally has the following: "Her Name is Noble. [] Feed her to the Beetle.", and "I’d set the Beetle on Donna. [] free my Donna of the Beetle’s curse". That is as explicit as explicit can be. There's no blurry lines there. The beetle was set upon Donna Noble. And, as for "these are fairly generic terms" maybe they are (they are not!) but not when they are all used together. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  23:11, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's ridiculous to claim that someone's argument is overly broad without saying that its ultimate conclusion happens to be wrong. Seems quite normal to me. I also think that there can be a variety of names that are noble without them happening to literally include the word "Noble" in them, and that the word "Brigade" is a quite common one in English and that a Christmas Star is a rather archetypal sort of thing - which is why it's even referred to in the first place. Najawin ☎  23:27, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

With no ill will or bad faith intended, this story reeks to me as an attempt to piggyback off the Fan Gallery event to trojan horse a fanfiction story into being covered by this Wiki (even as invalid). At the time of writing I believe Scrooge had no writing credits considered to be valid by this Wiki, so I can understand the desire to try and bypass the publishing process by seeking out a licensed DWU character and including them in fanfiction to try and get the story covered. Obviously, the story still had to relate to the episode at hand so a workaround was devised where minimal references were made to the existing concepts (no, I do not believe it was an "aesthetic choice" as claimed earlier in this thread). Even in this thread Scrooge does still seem to be dangling the hook about potential coverage while trying to act like they are not bothered about coverage ("A Better World in its current form probably doesn't belong on the Wiki, as a valid source, anyway"). I find it disingenuous, again no bad faith intended but I think that it is correct to get my actual feelings out so that Scrooge has a chance to defend themself. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  23:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)