Talk:Totem (short story)

Which Doctor?
Someone brought this up on another wiki....

basically, there is nothing in this short story to indicate that The Doctor in question is The Eighth Doctor. A man, calling himself "John Smith" arrives in Spain. He works for the widow for approximately 9 months. He clearly has a psychological/emotional burden. He argues with another man(who is unidentified). He fins the body of the woman's husband. It is revealed in the narrative that he is....The Doctor(no incarnation given or hinted at). He leaves. That's it. There is nothing mentioning long hair or a "Wild Bill" outfit. It is never mentioned what is troubling him, other than he has "blood on his hands". For all we know it could be The Third Doctor after "The Sea Devils". Or The Fifth Doctor after "Earthshock". Or The Sixth Doctor after "Attack Of The Cybermen". Or.... Master of Spiders ☎  16:13, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe that for Doctors where the incarnation isn't specified, or it's an ambiguous "future" Doctor, we call the page "The Doctor", followed by a dab term. If there's really nothing positively identifying the Doctor as Paul McGann and the man he's arguing with as Sylvester McCoy, then I assume it's not too much a stretch to make it The Doctor (Totem). -- Tybort (talk page) 16:24, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Master of Spiders, I suggest you reread the story. It says his hair is "long, brown, and wavy" and he wears a green velvet coat. He also suffers from memory problems. The hair color rules out the three Doctors you've mentioned. Shambala108 ☎  18:41, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I figured that there was some sort of description in there... Case closed I guess... OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 18:51, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

No it isn't. I actually went though the story, cut-and-pasting all references to The Doctor, showing several that disqualified Eight from being The Doctor in question. But, this site wouldn't allow the edit. I'll try again later. Also, "long brown wavy hair"(it mentions "curly hair" at one point) sounds like The Fourth Doctor. "Green velvet coat" sounds like The Third Doctor. Like I said, I'll try again later, and hopefully it will allow the edit... But the overall point was this sounds like it could be one of several Doctors. Sort of like The Infinity Doctors where it's deliberately never made clear which incarnation it is. Master of Spiders ☎  08:13, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I must ask that you stop this. The story names him as a curly haired fellow with a velvet suit, that's all we really need to qualify it as the Eighth Doctor. If there are things that disqualify him from being the Doctor, well that's more of a production error than a disqualifier for 8. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 12:22, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

That is unnecessarily rude. Here are the things I actually added yesterday(but disappeared?)

"Quiet, strange, but undoubtedly good"-(sounds like Four)

"a tall handsome man" -(that's not Paul Mcgann. I won't comment on how handsome or not he is :-), but he's only 5ft7) "who would have seemed young and in the prime of his life" (okay, but that could also be others. 'Young' is also subjective in that Senora Panstedas is older, and anyone other than One or Three would be 'young' and 'in the prime of life' to her)

"grey-blue, empty eyes" (Mcgann's eyes are blue, not 'grey-blue'. You know who does have grey-blue eyes? Tom Baker)

"hair was long, brown and wavy" (sounds far more like Four)

"his skin was pale" (not quite Mcgann, is it?)

"His accent was unfamiliar, though each word was carefully pronounced" (that's Four again)

"he'd been wearing a coat of green velvet" (that's Three)

"a simple white shirt" (so, NOT some frilly Wild Bill Hicock shirt". You know who did wear simple white shirts? Four)

"grey trousers that looked to be of good quality" (anyone other than Two, Five or Six then)

"and brown leather shoes" (no comment)

"speaking very fast"(sounds more like Nine, though he didn't exist then)

"straggling curl of hair" (Four again)

His only identifications are when he says "I am the Doctor" and then later "I am The Doctor. No other"

If that is enough for you to know that it is The Eighth Doctor, I would appreciate your describing of how you came to that conclusion. You can not just pick-and-choose one very vague description, and discard several that point to something you do not agree with. Master of Spiders ☎  14:15, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Would it really be anything significant if this is recategorized under Category:Stories with unknown or disputed Doctors? Master of Spiders ☎  14:25, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes it would. This incarnation is obviously 8. Obviously. Seperate these descriptions are ambiguous, but together they are 8. And really? Arguing over shades of blue.
 * Discussion over. 8th Doctor. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 14:28, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

First, "shades of blue" is not something petty. As an example, both oxford and Cambridge use shades of blue, and people are instantly recognisable by their support for one or the other by which "shade of blue" is used. But, "grey-blue" is NOT even a shade of blue. In fact, "blue" is one specific colour. There are various different colours that people mistakenly refer to as blue. Paul Mcgann's eyes are definitely not grey-blue, either way though.

Second, taken together it is not Eight. That was my actual point in the first place! A couple of things could be Eight, but most of them clearly can't. The point was that someone took the minority where there was some ambiguity, and said "That's Eight!" However, everything else disqualifies Eight.

Last, I asked you to explain why you believe it is Eight with logical thought, and your 'proof' amounts to you acting like my pointing out a description of The Doctor's eyes disqualifies Eight is somehow petty, and totally avoiding the question. You still have not provided anything. Master of Spiders ☎  14:38, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


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 * Sigh. This is eight. Eight had long curly hair, blue eyes, memory proplems, a velvet suit, grey trousers, leather shoes, a unique accent and basically all of those things described. Your argument that this isn't 8 is that 8 isn't pretty. And lemme tell you, you are entirely wrong. I use McGann as my Youtube account icon and I'm always getting comments like "Is that you're face? You're cute!". There is no proof that this isn't 8; any qualities that describe him wrong are continuity errors, not proof that it isn't him. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 15:09, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Eight had blue eyes, but the Doctor described in Totem had "grey-blue eyes". Eight didn't have a unique accent. He has a standard(for the time) BBC accent. He isn't tall. He doesn't speak very fast. he never wore a plain white short. You also went off an an unnecessary tangent about Mcgann's looks. I specifically stated above that i wouldn't comment on Mcgann's looks yet you know seem to think that my commenting on Mcgann's looks is the sum of my argument? Judging by this discussion, you don't seem tor ead things properly before coming to conclusions...

Last "any qualities that describe him wrong are continuity errors, not proof that it isn't him". Sorry, but that is ridiculous. if the description by the author(who also edited the More Short Trips under his real name) differs significantly from Eight to the point where it can not possibly be Eight then you can't just say "Oh, it is Eight. The mountain of stuff that means it can't possibly be Eight is just continuity errors!" Master of Spiders ☎  15:24, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * "Eight had blue eyes, but the Doctor described in Totem had "grey-blue eyes".
 * So he's described with blue eyes.
 * "Eight didn't have a unique accent."
 * No, but he does if you're in Mexico.
 * "He doesn't talk very fast"
 * Watch the scene where he's explaining the eye of harmony. He. Talks. Fast.
 * "I specifically stated above that i wouldn't comment on Mcgann's looks yet you know seem to think that my commenting on Mcgann's looks is the sum of my argument?"
 * You brought it up multiple times.
 * "he never wore a plain white short."
 * I'm going to presume that that's a typo. He wore a white shirt. That's enough.
 * The description is so obviously Eight. The large mountain of proof that it is 8 is only balanced against by your feeble points of "8 wasn't tall" and "Eight didn't have that exact colour eyes". Your argument is weak and not rational. The fact that you say "you don't seem tor ead things properly before coming to conclusions" [Whatever that means] is incredibly ironic. Also note that your editing of the page while a discussion is going on is unorthodox. It's defiance and could get you in trouble if you do it often. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 15:55, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Did you actually read anything I typed? If so, did you understand it?

The eyes...The Eighth Doctor has BLUE eyes. It specifically says in Totem that The Doctor has GREY-BLUE eyes. You so "So he's described with blue eyes". Your comment is a blatant and baldfaced lie. He is clearly described with GREY-BLUE eyes.

Eight also doesn't have a unique accent. he certainly has a foreign accent as far as the Senora would be concerned. But not unique. Also it doesn't matter one jot what anything would be like in Mexico, sine '''the story is not set in Mexico. It's set in Portugal.'''

He never wore a plain white shirt. You're "going to presume that's a typo"? A typo is getting one letter wrong. It is not adding a descriptive adjective, correctly spelled, and proofread. Your problem is obviously since Eight never wore a plain white shirt(but other Doctors did) it can not possibly be Eight.

And, once again you misinterpret what I said about the Eighth Doctor's looks! I said that the Doctor here is described as "tall and handsome". I said I would not comment on whether Mcgann is handsome, but he sure ain't tall. You then go off on a tangent about how you use Mcgann and people keep telling you that is cute.

To sum up, it is NOT obviously Eight. There are various things which mean it can't be him. You dismiss them as "typos" and [my] "feeble points". But they are not "my" anything. They are the descriptions that were deliberately put there to describe The Doctor by the person who actually wrote the story! Master of Spiders ☎  16:05, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Did anyone actually read the story?
According to the article The Doctor argues with his previous self in his mind, but shouts in real life. First, there is NO indication is The Doctor's previous self, nor a Doctor at all. However, the bit about "in his mind" is totally contradicted by

"She could see nothing but she could hear the voices - first John's plaintive tones and then a softer voice, low, dry, tinged with another accent she didn't recognise"

...

"His short gasps of exertion were steamrolled over by the commanding voice of the other man".

...

"Then the other man spoke again"

...

"The other man's voice scared her"

So, The Doctor is talking to himself "in his mind" yet the Senora is able to hear the other man's voice. At one stage "John" and the other man are speaking at the same time, and the Senora hears both voices. That's quite an impressive feat for talking to yourself in your mind! Master of Spiders ☎  15:32, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lastly, it's Wikipedia(yes, yes, I know...) but their description f this story says(and has done so far a long long time)

Seeking redemption for a number of crimes, the Doctor begins working on a Mexican farm owned by Senora Panstedas, a widower, and the pair become great friends, until the Doctor discovers Senora has committed a much darker crime.

The Mexico location contrasts the Spain listed here. The joke is that even I was drawn in by the idea of Spain! Two place names are listed...Machico and Funchal. A quick Google search tells us they are both in....Portugal. Not Spain, not Mexico. Portugal. The Wikipedia article also implies that the Senora was somehow involved in her husband's death. However the near-to-last words are Senora Panstedas died a few years later, mever learning the truth about he husband's death.

There is also NO mention of ANY date in the story itself.Master of Spiders ☎  15:37, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Problems with this article
OK we need to take a breath and step back here. There are problems with this article. I've been editing a lot of ST stories lately, but this one was mostly intact so I did only a little to it. However, I did remove the reference to the "voice" being the Seventh Doctor, because there is no clear evidence of him. Most of the existing info on this article seems to come from the Doctor Who Reference Guide, which allows for more interpreting than we do.

However, all that being said, there is enough evidence to show that the Eighth Doctor was meant. The hair and the jacket fit (and it doesn't matter how many other Doctors had curly hair or wore green jackets, the point is that these are two key features of the Eighth). This story mentions memory problems, also a feature of the Eighth. As for eye color, there is a story (can't remember which off the top of my head) where they Second Doctor's eye color changes three times in one story, and people do have different interpretations of eye color, so I won't call this issue enough to rule out Eight. Lastly, attractiveness and even height are relative. Most ST stories that I've read with Eight seem to have women falling all over him, so he's obviously considered attractive by many.

Most ST writers write about a specific Doctor, and seem to expect us to understand which one they write about, no matter how vague their descriptions are. I've read a lot of these stories and have come to understand which characteristics are popularly associated with each Doctor as written by the ST authors. Master of Spiders, you started this thread by saying there is no evidence that the Doctor here is the Eighth, but as OttselSpy25 and I have pointed out, there is enough evidence to show it's the Eighth. Shambala108 ☎  17:00, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Even if the Eight Doctor was meant, there is too much contradictory evidence. Various Doctors have had memory problems at different times. Again, the "handsome" part was simply to quote the text, the point was height. I've also read lots of stories, and several are indeed written generically for "The Doctor", and people can disagree about which Doctor it is.

By the way:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9nkmqIkry1rqad0p.jpg (Eighth Doctor in The TV Movie)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fa/Dying_Days.jpg/200px-Dying_Days.jpg (Eighth Doctor in the VNA)

http://datechguy.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/b016_storm_big.jpg (Eighth Doctor BFA)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110117170153/tardis/images/5/56/The_Land_of_Happy_Endings.png (Eighth Doctor DWM)

Now, is it just me, or is that black, rather than green?

(Admittedly, he did go green in http://www.doctorwhoreviews.co.uk/EDA57_files/The%20Crooked%20World%20Cover.jpg), but that is set MUCH later in his timeline, and was only released in 2002! Master of Spiders ☎  17:40, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Although at times the jacket seems black, upon closer inspection, it is green. https://ohmywordness.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/eighth-doctor.jpg

Also note these images:. Very clearly grey-blue eyes.

And to "His accent wasn't strange" and "He wasn't tall", remember, this is relative to Mexico. Not to be racist, just a point; over there his voice might be considered quite strange.

He wears leather shoes, has grey-blue eyes, wears a green jacket, has memory problems, has brown curly hair, has a white shirt, and has light brown well-kept pants. He IS the Eighth Doctor. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 18:29, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

First, that is not grey-blue.

Second, here are more pics of The Eighth Doctor from The TV Movie

. All of which(and countless more) make it abundantly clear it is in fact a black coat, unlike the faded(and possibly shopped) picture you showed.

Hpwever, here's a pic where light is reflected. Which may be the origin of this and more.

Anyway, the point that stands that a "green" jacket is not characteristic of the Eighth Doctor.

Next up, AGAIN...first The Eighth Doctor has a standard BBC accent, which may be foreign to the Senora's accent, but it would in no way, shape or form be unique. Height, maybe. But, yet again, the story is not set in Mexico. You keep mentioning Mexico. But read the actual story, make note of the placenames. Get it? Even stranger the article's infobox says it's set in Spain, yet the text states Mexico. That's one big farm. Ana again, you ignore the "plain" part relating to the shirt. Basically, your entire argument revolves around you picking-and-choosing those elements that support your case, while completely dismissing everything that contradicts it. Master of Spiders ☎  04:52, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * First, that is greyish blue. Thus, grey-blue.


 * "Basically, your entire argument revolves around you picking-and-choosing those elements that support your case..." Uh, no. My point is that none of your points are noteworthy.


 * The Eighth Doctor DID wear a plain-white shirt. eighth-doctor-paul-mcgann.jpg Plain. White. Shirt.


 * If you really think that the Eighth Doctor had a black coat, I must tell you that you're mistaken. Watch the film again and You'll see that when he leaves the dark TARDIS set his coat is clearly green. Here's some more images from the movie: Green Green Clearly dark green.


 * Spinoff material has also used the green coat: Shada, Absolution comic preview, Seasons of Fear comic preview, Storm Warning comic preview, Time Works Comic preview, The Dying Days, Faith Stealer, The Crooked World, The Forgotten.


 * Products are also made with a green jacket: 50th Anniversary Model, I, Who book, Micro figure.


 * Anyway, the point that stands that the "green" jacket is totally a characteristic of the Eighth Doctor. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 05:41, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

"Grey-blue" is not blue. It may be similar, but it's something different and separate.

We could go on posting images like this. But here's blue again. Anyway, the point is that he originally wore black (The TV Movie). he also later DID wear green, as well as blue, and possibly other colours(will need to check up). So one particular colour jacket is in fact NOT "totally a chracteristic of the Eighth Doctor". In fact "long hair" and "velvet" aren't even "totally a chracteristic" of him either. ,.

Next, yes, the shirt is white. No one ever said anything to the contrary. However, it's not a "plain" white shirt. 

Next, memory loss. Here's the tricky one...for you that is. There are two possible gaps where Totem may take place in the Eighth Doctor's timeline. First, in the near-three-year gap between "Bounty" and "Vampire Science". Sadly this falls down completely, as The Eighth Doctor has all his memories back by then(so much for your 'characteristic' of memory loss). Next, if the other man is Seven(and that's a tremendous leap) is he visiting his next incarnation right after regeneration? Thus it can't possible go here. The time when the Eighth Doctor DID have memory loss was during his 113-year stay on Earth between "The Ancestor Cell" and "Escape Velocity". Unfortunately, he didn't know there what he knows here and his "past self" would have been unable to visit him here too. To say nothing of the fact that More Short Trips was written some time BEFORE this exile on Earth again. In fact, it is shown here that he is voluntarily doing this, and can leave at any time, which contradicts his 113-year stay on Earth. But, either way, this story is like "Death Comes To Time" for the Seventh Doctor, in that it can't be fitted into his timeline. At least in DCTT we KNOW it's Seven/Mccoy. With Totem we do NOT know which Doctor "John" is. Master of Spiders ☎  06:21, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

....short.... Not plain white shirt. Master of Spiders ☎  09:45, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, that's a plain white shirt. Just a normal white shirt with the colla pushed up, nothing more.


 * And, no, he is NOT wearing a black coat in the movie. It is very obviously dark green. Dpinoff material has always identified 8's jacket as green, and it was; I can get five images to show that it's green for every image you pull out for it being black or blue. The Eighth Doctor's green coat very clearly is a well known charactoristic of 8. To say "Well, his cost varies in colour, so this isn't necisarily him in bolocks. And yes, velvet and long hair are very much charactoristics of 8. More importantly, velvet, long hair, memory loss, leather shoes, grey-blue eyes, a white shirt, and brown pants are most certainly characteristics of the 8th Doctor.


 * I'm not even gonna read your timeline rant because I don't think where it happend matters, more like who it happend to is the issue. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 12:27, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Look at the arms of the shirt. Not plain white. One that showed the fronts(with the buttons) would emphasize this, if someone has a pic of one.

It is also interesting to note that all my pics of The TV Movie have been clear and pretty high-def, while your ones have faded colours, and strange things happening. This reminds me of when old Pertwee stories that existed only in black-and-white were copied onto VHS tapes by fans. Eventually multiple-generation copies started showing colours. These were not the original colours, but rather because the poor quality of the images produced this effect......But regardless of whether he wore a black jacket, a blue jacket or a green jacket, the fact remains....there are multiple stories with him in each. Thus, no one colour jacket can be a "chracteristic"" of him. And your statement about "for every image you pull out" ca not possibly be verified. Then the eyes. After your insistence that *'s eyes are blue, and "grey-blue" was a typo, you now take the position that he has grey-blue eyes all along. So you've changed your argument....Long hair, various Doctors had long hair. Memory loss...see elsewhere on this talk page. Brown pants...various Doctors. Leather shoes...Ditto.

And once again, you dismiss evidence that contradicts your viewpoint. You show just how you handle a discussion, by saying "I'm not even gonna read your timeline rant, because I don't think where it happened matters, more like it who it happened to is the issue"...But my so-called "timeline rant", shows that the who, can not be 8, as there is nowhere in 8's timeline where this could have happened. Your response? Simply dismiss it totally, and pretend the fact doesn't exist! Just like you've been doing all along. Taking those facts that support your position, blatantly twisting and distorting others to suit your position, and then dismissing out of hand everything that contradicts your position.

As far as "where it happened", this does matter on two levels. One, so the article can be accurate. And two, it shows up how non-existent your position is. Even after the locations were pointed out, you kept repeating "Mexico" over and over! This shows beyond any reasonable doubt that even when the facts are there, you insist on sticking to your original position, and simply ignoring what the narrative actually says. So, your insistence on "Mexico" despite evidence to the contrary...is identical to your insistence on "Eight", despite evidence to the contrary. Master of Spiders ☎  14:19, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Locked
This article has been reverted to a point before this heated editing began and has been locked to prevent an actual edit war breaking out. This reversion should not be taken as administrative repudiation of anyone's later edits. I do not at all imply through this reversion that I disbelieve MOS, OS25 or Shambala. I'm just returning it to a neutral state so that the discussion can be the focus of proposed changes.

Additional comments will follow, either by myself, another admin, or both. In the meantime, all parties to the discussion need to just chill and consider the other parties' position carefully. Seems to me after my initial read that all sides have at least one really strong argument.

THe article will remain locked for at least one week — plenty of time to resolve differences here. 22:38: Mon 11 Feb 2013

Other issues apart from identity of The Doctor
Regardless of what anyone thinks about which incarnation of The Doctor "John" is, there are other problems, which have been outlined above. But to summarise:

1)Location. The infobox states "Spain". The text states "Mexico". However, two place names are mentioned as being nearby, both of which are near to each other in...Portugal

2)Date. There is nothing whatsoever in the story that evens hints at this

3)The identity of the other man. The article now states that it is The Doctor's past self. There is nothing that makes this clear, or even suggests it.

4)The Doctor "talks to himself in his head". Even IF the other man IS an earlier Doctor, it is repeatedly stated that the Senora hears the other man's voice, and at one part, hears both voices at the same time. Master of Spiders ☎  04:56, February 12, 2013 (UTC)