User talk:DrWHOCorrieFan

Hi there. I was wondering why you keep adding spaces to the infoboxes of the pages you're editing. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  13:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Please see Template:Infobox Individual. That is how infoboxes are copied and pasted, without the spaces some other wikis might have. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  13:16, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * If you are doing it to have uniformity with other Wikis, please don't. We have our own internal rules and conventions, and it ultimately serves very little purpose.


 * If you believe that this change, however, should be implemented, as it is such a large, site-wide change it would necessitate a Forum discusssion. If the change was accepted, you wouldn't have to implement it manually, nah, we've got bots that can do it much faster. 📯 📂 13:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * In relation to your message on my talk page, I'm confused. You want uniformity but are going against the template page which most editors copy and paste onto pages? Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  13:24, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * And yet you'll notice that the overwhelmimg majority of pages do not have the spaces. Look at how many you've added today. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  13:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Yet they're uniformly lacking in spaces. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  13:30, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Alright, time for me to step in properly now that dialogue has been initiated, as I see tones are getting a bit heated. To begin with, User:DrWHOCorrieFan has a point that @User:Jack "BtR" Saxon, your initial edit summaries might have been somewhat unfriendly in their wording.


 * But on the object-level issue, Jack and User:Epsilon the Eternal are correct that just because other Wikis do things one way, doesn't mean you should try to bring Tardis in line with it. See Tardis:When do local rules prevail? for more discussion of this. You shouldn't upend the way things are done on hundreds of page without just cause or due discussion, even if it's in this sort of generally harmless way. Also, since it has no effect on how things display outside of source-mode, it's overall a waste of editing time that you could be using more productively in other areas of the Wiki. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 13:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * That's fair enough on tidying the infoboxes in the process. Thank you for that!


 * Regarding the lack of written policy on the matter, it may not be stated as a rule, but note that the preload templates you can choose from when creating a new page use the space-less version, so it's coded into the Wiki's very CSS that our style guide is not to have the space. But that's almost irrelevant. The main point is that even if were not written-down policy, "how we do things across thousands of pages" is just not the sort of thing that a user should attempt to individually upend without discussion — certainly not once other users start objecting. Insisting on doing so anyway because the current way of things is technically not written-down anywhere would run up against the spirit of Tardis:Do not disrupt this wiki to prove a point. Trying to be a rules-lawyer helps no one. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 13:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Sorry if that was unclear, but I was not claiming you had broken Tardis:Do not disrupt this wiki to prove a point, merely explaining that it could be argued that you would be doing so if you did insist on carrying on with these edits.


 * I'm not sure what to make of your two infobox examples. Sure, the second is uneven in width, if that's what you mean to highlight? But… much like the spaces thing, this has no effects on how it displays. As such, it is not necessary to "even it up", regardless of the spaces thing. If that is what you meant about "tidying up" infoboxes, this isn't really useful either. If you're editing a page for another reason, feel free to do the width-up-evening thing, but it is not something that it is necessary to do in its own right. Again, please try to focus your editing efforts on things that actually affect the Wiki as experienced by readers. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:20, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't think the thing about duplicate argument follows? But fair enough about the OCD thing, it hadn't occurred to me. Apologies. Feel free to "correct" the widths-thing, then, if it does indeed have marginal benefits that no actual downsides are there to outweigh. However, previous points about the spaces-thing stand. Other Wikis are irrelevant: if consistent we must be, precedent and the preload template concur that it should be consistency on no spaces.


 * (I'm replying regarding the messages to and from Epsilon in the section below.) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:33, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Epsilon and presenting as an admin
Hi! You are correct that User:Epsilon the Eternal isn't an admin and should not speak with the authority of one (although bolded text, in and of itself, isn't really an issue).

However, I can't help but point out that you yourself, in going off to reprimand him, acted in much the same way of "telling [other users] what to do/what not to do". So, uhm, please don't do it either. If you have concerns about another user's behaviour, either engage dialogue with them in a friendlier tone than that, or, if you fear that such dialogue is unlikely to succeed, call on an admin to intercede with more authority; but don't take it upon yourself to scold other users or order them about, even if you feel they're in the wrong. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 18:36, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Epsilon had already seen your message, and, since he edited your talk page, will also have seen the above one. I felt that adding yet another message would have been redundant. I can post a message on his talk page if you still think it's necessary, but, again, I have every reason to believe he will be reading this very post.


 * (Re: the custom signature — I absolutely see how you got the impression it was a marker of adminship, but just to be clear, it is in no way a privilege of admins: any FANDOM user can create one! The mark of an admin is the peculiar mauve tint to how the user-name displays by default.) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:33, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Message directed at me on Shambala's talk page
Hey! Setting aside our present disagreement on the object-level issue, please take your latest edit at User talk:Shambala108 off that page and transfer it to User talk:Scrooge MacDuck: it is clearly directed at me, not at Shambala (you refer to her in the third person), so it doesn't belong on her talk page in general principles. Furthermore, Shambala explicitly dislikes other users arguing on her talk page as though it were a regular article talk page.

Replying to the object-level issue, the message you quoted is not explicitly about naming. Perhaps you meant "isn't that breaking…" to be about page-naming, but this wasn't clear to anyone but yourself. The discussion was about whether to have the pages at all, and I, for one, interpreted that comment of yours as being about that, as well. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 20:01, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits
Hi there. Just a reminder that everything needs to be sourced, so I've gone ahead and added "(PROSE: The Torchwood Archives)" to your recent pages. I was also wondering why you've chosen to ignore the recent discussions and continue adding spaces to the infoboxes. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  19:27, 4 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not policing your edits. You recently created a page which I viewed and noticed that it did not have a source as is required. I'll concede that my message could be construed as accusatory, but that wasn't my intention. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  19:37, 4 May 2022 (UTC)


 * It isn't the job of admins to act as a go-between. I'm going through your edits from the past few days because they all need the same changes (e.g. minor edit to the infobox and italicisation of "Alice in Wonderland"). Do try your best not to add the spaces. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  19:50, 4 May 2022 (UTC)


 * If you look through my contributions, you will see that I have done nothing but revert vandalism since 27 April, none of which involve you. You've made an incorrect assumption there.
 * Secondly, I refute having made any "nasty statements" about you whatsoever. If I came across as accusatory in this instance, it is perhaps that it's surprising that you would continue to add these spaces given the large amount of discussion regarding this a few days ago. You've given your explanation and, in good faith, have not accused you of T:BOUND or anything like that.
 * Thirdly, if you do feel that you are being harassed by myself or anybody else, do inform an admin so that they can decide if you are indeed being harassed and if any steps need to be taken. I've brought up the sourcing and the spacing and see no need for this conversation to continue unless you choose to. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  20:04, 4 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Those edits were made after I messaged Nate Bumber. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  20:16, 4 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Since 27 April and my message to Nate Bumber, I made seven edits; three of these were reverting vandalism, two were correcting spelling, one was a message to Epsilon about said spelling and one was reverting an edit which was not vandalism.


 * I edit here very regularly and it is unusual for me to go seven days with only as many edits. As all but one of the edits I have mentioned were reverts/corrections, I said that I had done little but revert vandalism. This seems not to have strictly been the case, but I did not expect to have to defend this statement.


 * You seem to believe that the editors here are against you. This is not the case. You were very much far from my mind when, seven days after the recent discussions, I responded to Nate's message. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  20:42, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Re: Move
Hi, the technical reason that you can't move the page is that it is move locked (see the logs here). However, generally, non-admins should not move pages as it is common community consensus that only admins should move pages (I believe the reason for this is that non-admins cannot fully perform the required clean-up as they can't delete pages but I am unsure about that). The template adds the page to a table at T:SPEEDY that admins can then work through. This system can be frustrating but, until there are forums to properly overturn it, we are bound by current policy. Bongo50  ☎  17:08, 7 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh, good point. Bongo50   ☎  17:32, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Moving pages
Hiya, I saw that you moved Cosmo to Cosmo (A Spoonful of Mayhem) recently, and while that is allowed by policy, it is customarily expected that if you're going to move a page, you'll move the links too, or at very least, leave a redirect. As it stands, I just had to change about ten links, all visible from Special:WhatLinksHere, which I didn't especially want to do. 📯 📂 11:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem! 📯 📂 14:47, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The Spaces
Hi there. You seem to still be including spaces in infoboxes despite what you've been told. I'm currently going through your recent edits to remove them and amend a few other problems. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  16:58, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Re: T:SPOIL concerns
As I explained in my last edit summary, your edit was T:SPOIL-breaking — quite innocently on your part; I get you did your best to try and word it without giving anything away. But the fact of the matter is that making an edit on the talk page of a character, saying "Well, it looks like we're going to have a potential influx of new editors here, the page should be locked", gives away to anyone familiar with this Wiki that there are news of some kind about the character that can't be discussed openly yet. By the Wiki's definition, this is a spoiler, albeit a vague one. That there may be some leak or rumour circulating about [X], necessitating that [X]'s page be locked, is more information than we want to inflict on our more spoiler-averse readers without warning.

I get this isn't obvious! I'm not reprimanding you for not having grasped this at first! But I assure you that's the way T:SPOIL is. I am confident other admins would back me on this. At any rate, if you really insist on discussing it further, the appropriate medium for early Wiki discussion of future information is Howling:The Howling, not back-and-forth edit summaries!

Regarding your earlier message, I was under the impression your quarrel with User:Jack "BtR" Saxon had since been resolved privately between yourself and him. While it is unfortunate that it had come to that, I thought his answers on your talk page were satisfactory in terms of establishing there was no ill intent, and thus, that no action needed to be taken on either side. If you still have complaints about Jack's behaviour, please explain them to me. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 01:26, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your message. You simultaneously say that "the obvious thing to do in this situation was to redact [your] comment" (as well as lock the page), and take issue with my, in fact, redacting it?… As for why I didn't lock [X]'s page itself, but just the talk page (and even then, only briefly, to halt the edit-war-in-the-making): while actual, factual vandalism might compel us to lock it anyway, it seems to me that noticing the page is locked for no evident reason would also be a way for someone to accidentally wise up to the fact that there are spoiler-worthy news about [X]. On this, reasonable minds can disagree, but, again, the place to discuss it is a Howling thread.


 * I assumed your argument with Jack had been resolved because Jack answered your concerns on your talk page directly, in what seemed to me to be a calm and fitting manner — and because your last post on my talk page under that heading stated that "This [would] be [your] last reply", which didn't exactly feel conductive to further dialogue. If you wanted to continue rebutting Jack's explanations and pressing the issue, you didn't make it very clear.


 * To answer your original question: there are procedures in place to reprimand users if they have been unfriendly to other users, or made personal attacks. But no, there isn't an official "procedure" for "severing contact" with another user. You can ask them not to post on your talk page, as a matter of politeness, but officially severing contributions between non-blocked users feels completely at odds with the spirit of collaboration and communication that is the bedrocks of all Wikis. If you want me (or another admin) to make a ruling on whether User:Jack "BtR" Saxon's edit summaries broke Tardis:No personal attacks, that's different, but the truth is that your original inquiry just isn't something to which Wiki policy has an answer. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 01:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Regarding the redaction of the comic: ah, I see what you mean. I'll re-add a note, if it means this much to you…


 * Regarding the Jack business: I think it's rather getting lost in the shuffle that, as we established before, your "spaces" edits were against policy and essentially pointless, as a matter of fact. Perhaps he was too callous in his edit summaries (certainly he should not have called your edits "vandalisms") — but Jack's statement that those edits were "useless", at least, was in fact, factually correct. Being that these edits were wrongful (albeit well-intentioned), it does not constitute "stalking" on Jack's part to have gone through your edit history to revert them. And while "inexplicable" may be a strong word, I certainly found them rather puzzling until you explained the origin of this habit you had developed. All this being the case, while Jack's actions weren't perfect, I find that your case against him is nowhere near as strong as you feel it is.


 * Also, in the spirit of not wanting other editors to take a systematically negative view of one's actions, I would appreciate it if you stopped treating me like some kind of enemy. Admins are people too, it may surprise you to learn. We have real lives, we have feelings, we have mental health of varying fortitude, and much as you have obviously found Jack's somewhat brusque corrections draining and off-putting, I am increasingly finding your picking-apart of every interaction we have just as draining. There are ways to discuss whether my course of conduct has been optimal without suggesting I am "unreasonable", or that the Wiki's policies are "ridiculous", or that I am "bending the rules". Now, I don't, as a matter of fact, think this is part of some concerted conspiracy on your part to harass me and ruin my mental health — much as I suspect that Jack harbours no such secret agenda towards you. So I tell you all this, both to ask you to be more considerate in your messages to me, and to attempt to show you how Jack likely feels on the receiving end of your case against him.


 * Or to put it another way: yes, Jack's tone wasn't as friendly and collected as we want editors to strive to be. But you're not exactly being a shining example of that yourself, and it would go a long way if you tried to be less confrontational in how you describe my, Jack's, or other admins' and editors' behaviour, if you want Jack to be more forgiving in how he describes yours.


 * All of which said, you are of course within your rights not to want to interact with him more than you absolutely have to. It's just… I don't know what you want me to tell you here — nowhere in the Wiki's policies is there such a thing as a system for officially barring a user from interacting with another. You can ask Jack not to message you on your talk page, and it would be polite of him to comply, but there's not much else for me or any other admin to do unless you want to argue that a given message of Jack's on your talk page was a personal attack in content. I'm not disagreeing with the moral principle that you have a right to demand that Jack leave you alone, I'm just saying, this isn't a thing that admins are empowered to enforce in the current state of policy. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 02:26, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I just want to state that I've been an admin here for nine years and I've never seen someone scolded (sorry I can't think of a better word) for suggesting that something (which could potentially be a spoiler) be locked. I don't get that reading from Tardis:Spoiler policy at all. Shambala108 ☎  02:33, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * From my understanding, that is not an issue. It's where @DrWhoCorrieFan posted the request which I believe is the issue. Like you always say, @Shambala108 when in doubt, ask an admin — and in this instance, it probably would've been best for @DrWHOCorrieFan to ask youself or @Scrooge MacDuck — that way, all of this would've been kept out of the main namespace, on talk pages, where users can be fully transparent about the concerns and not have talk page messages redacted.


 * Personally, if any more information comes out about [REDACTED] appearing in [REDACTED] (not that one, haha) the page should be locked.


 * But I do understand @Scrooge MacDuck as well, as ironically, protecting a page from spoilers being added to it, is, in itself, somewhat of a spolier. It's odd, but I completely get it. I think the time when a page needs protecting is often related to how much "the cat is out of the bag", spoiler-wise. And in the case of [REDACTED]... maybe not just yet. Grainy images with grey blobs doesn't seem like enough proof for a spolier to have merit. We should take into account bogus leaks, too.


 * In the words of Staff Sergeant Annie Frederick, "I’d advise hanging back [...] Wait and see – it may, just may, all be a clever hoax." 📯 📂 08:19, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Note from an admin on the outside
Hey, I'm not involved in any of this, but I wanted to address a really important misconception. The gist of T:ATTACKS is "attack the point, not the person".

When you edit on a public wiki, your work will be scrutinised. We don't get our own little corner of the wiki made private, so no one can touch our work and we don't have to worry about meeting common standards.

We've all had pages we worked really hard on deleted, and edits reverted. Especially when first starting out, there's a lot of standards we just don't know about, a lot of opportunities to step back and learn from the community.

The thing is, you do have to be open to this sort of discussion for there to be any real change. Whether or not this particular example with T:SPOIL is the way to go, I need you to think on whether these other users are addressing your edits or talking about you as a person when they're helping point your contributions in another direction.

Addressing your edits is our job here, especially when we notice a pattern that needs correcting. Coming in from another wiki, there's going to be some rough patches, here and there, since things work differently here.

And you have to be willing to collaborate to make things work. Without communication, it's gonna be the same cycle over and over again. Editors are going to keep coming to you to explain community standards. You're going to keep ignoring them and repeating the same edits, without ever finding common ground. And at a certain point, it becomes pretty disruptive having to carry on like this.

Looking everything over, I'm not seeing a T:NPA violation in any of this. Instead, I'm seeing other users doing their part in communicating with you on things that need to be worked on. And getting to be a little frustrated, over time, that you're not responding in kind.

Now if anyone had called you as a user "useless" or "inexplicable", we'd have a problem. That would absolutely be a personal attack. But instead, they're talking about your edits, which isn't at all the same thing.

All dedicated work feels intimate and personal -- and that's perfectly understandable -- but once cast out, it's no longer ours alone to control.

So I get feeling frustrated here. And I absolutely get that talk page messages can be terrifying, especially with the power imbalance inherent in being messaged by an admin.

But the solution is never going to be some special exemption from community collaboration. It's gonna take asking more questions, listening to others, voicing your own concerns and coming to understand theirs, then changing course as appropriate. Please take some time with this. 16:31, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Spoilers
Hi. I saw your post on a certain talk page and I just wanted to say that what you posted absolutely was enough to spoil this for me. There is really only one reason you would request a page to be locked for the reason you stated, so while you may not have been explicit, you were obvious. LauraBatham ☎  06:40, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I came to say the same. While I myself don't mind, there are some users who would be upset by such a spoiler, which your message made clear. While I'm certain your warning was in good faith, I think it does constitute enough of a spoiler. (I hope to be clear this is not intended to criticise you in any way, but to contribute to my agreement on the interpretation of the spoiler policy.) Chubby Potato ☎  07:14, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I should also add that I believe the edit was made good faith. I should have put that on my first message, sorry. LauraBatham ☎  07:21, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * There is no way that my post spoiled anything for you. There is not only one reason as to why a page may be heading for an influx in activity. The post I made is so ambiguous that there is no way you'd be spoiled unless you did further research. If the issue had been dealt with immediately and not dragged into a huge argument it is extremely likely you may have not even seen it. With the page unlocked people will genuinely be spoiled before long. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  10:10, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * @DrWHOCorrieFan... while I'm not really sure you can speak for other people, such as @LauraBatham, I do agree with you to the extent that your talk page reply was ambiguous, and would need further research, even just cursory, to be spoiled, in my opinion. However, I think you are partially culpable for this argument youself, as you decided to continually revert the edits removing your reply as opposed to asking the admin on a talk page why your reply was removed.
 * Also, as the page currently stands, there is no concern with spoilers. There may be if someone adds them in, but, if we remain vigilant, we can remove them quickly and minimise the damage. And frankly, I'd rather not have about half a dozen pages protected on this Wiki due to [REDACTED] upcoming release until late 2023. Does somewhat hinder editing those pages... 📯 📂 10:27, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Do you have to reply to every discussion? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  10:31, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * @DrWHOCorrieFan: "There is no way that my post spoiled anything for you." Are you calling me a liar? What other reason would there be for an expected influx of edits other than new information? And if the page needs to be locked, that information must be from an upcoming story. That right there is a spoiler. I can even get more specific without looking up anything. One can assume the story is TV seeing as generally no fuss is made if it is an audio/novel/comic because the EU gets far less spotlight, and considering the timing, it is not a difficult deduction as to which upcoming story. At this point, looking it up would merely be confirmation. LauraBatham ☎  11:11, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@DrWHOCorrieFan, unless if I break a policy, I am perfectly entitled to contribute to any disscussion on the Wiki where my input may be of help or interest, etc.

Also, as @LauraBatham has now confirmed the rationale of how she was spoiled, suffice to say, @Scrooge MacDuck's point holds true, which does justify why he redacted your message. 📯 📂 12:02, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@DrWHOCorrieFan: I honestly don't care if you've technically broken policy or not, it's about curtesy. You made a post, you were warned by a more experienced user - an admin no less - that it toed the line of being a spoiler, but instead of taking this into consideration, you re-added it. I was simply advising you that Scrooge's comments were correct. An assumption is still enough to ruin a surprise, whether it is correct or not. And in this case, it is a very reasonable assumption to make. Now if the character does show up, my reaction has gone from "Oh my God, they've brought back !" to "Yeah, I thought they might turn up". Maybe that would have been the case anyway if someone edited the page, but that will not necessarily happen. It is your own assumption that it will. So far, the only editor I've seen bring any attention to it has been yourself. Once again, I am sure this was not your intent, in fact I believe your intent was the exact opposite, but it is still the result. LauraBatham ☎  12:38, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I need to point out here that nowhere does Tardis:Spoiler policy explicitly forbid the kind of edit that we are discussing here, and since that is apparently the way we are interpreting rules on this wiki for now, User:DrWHOCorrieFan did nothing wrong. When/if the forums ever come back, it can be added to the policy, but for now no rules have been broken and this discussion should end. Shambala108 ☎  15:25, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Re: Checking in
In response to the message you left on @Shambala108's talk page, where you said...

...I have already pointed out on your talk page that it was, in my understanding, where you left a message, not entirely the content within. If you would've gone to, say, @Shambala108, and asked her discretely about locking the page, that would be one thing; user talk pages aren't traversed by many users. However, standard namespace pages and their talkpages are, so leaving a message like that in the open is entirely different to a talk page message. 📯 📂 20:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * You are not an admin, I have no interest in what you have to say on this subject. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  20:48, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I'm trying to help you. If you can't see that, then perhaps take a break to recollect your thoughts? It may be best. 📯 📂 20:52, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I am not interested in your help at this moment in time, I do not appreciate you butting into every discussion. This discussion already has several admins, what further information are you really able to provide? It is not necessary. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  20:57, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Re: Spoilers
After seeing your message on @Shambala108's talk page, I think you misunderstood a few points.

First and foremost, I have seen many sandboxes where spoilery pages are drafted, without knowing that a sub-policy of a policy forebade it. Evidently, every other Admin and editor has been in the same boat, as it was only with @Shambala108 helpfully pointing it out recently that has changed things. I have not been conducting "whataboutery" — to the contrary — I was highlighting precedents that guided me into the creation of such a sandbox, even if it was ultimately misguided.

Secondly, my second message to @Shambala108 was a genuine question that I would've asked regardless of my own sandbox.

Thirdly, Ncuti Gatwa is not a spoiler considering that he has been officially thanked in an issue of DWM. Category:People thanked by production holds that pages can be created for a mere thanking in an official source, and if you take a look at the latest version of the sandbox, the page is built around that official thanking, and there is no mention of Gatwa's role in series fourteen, thus not constituting spoilers. 📯 📂 11:31, 7 July 2022 (UTC)