Talk:List of references to other DWU media in live-action BBC stories

So, uh, the concern I have with this page
There's a lot of "creative re-use" in Doctor Who. Like, intentionally or not, a lot of stories have similarities between them, and it has lent itself to accusations of plagiarism in the past. I personally think this is misguided, as art is a collaborative enterprise, but it is something that exists in our community. If we're going to have this page, how far do we go with it? Do we just list the references that the creatives explicitly state that they're making or are made by the same creators? Do we note cool one off ideas like the time vortex? Or do we also note the accusations of plagiarism leveled at Steven Moffat by Lawrence Miles? (Or really, leveled at him by fans of Miles that Miles then repeated on his blog but said were sorta half true.) This is a touchy subject, which is why I think we need to have a discussion here sooner rather than later. Najawin ☎  00:46, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * Basically, I guess, where do we draw the line at coincidence vs inspiration vs homage vs reference vs plagiarism? Najawin ☎  02:16, August 17, 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's our job to decide if something is plagiarism or not. If it's a reference, it's a reference. That said, we shouldn't try to claim, with certainty, that an ambiguous thing is a reference. For example, I wrote that "a double decker bus resembling Iris Wildthyme's Omnibus", rather than "there was a reference to" or "it appeared". Even that might not be clear enough, as it could technically be a coincidence (though an unlikely one, I suspect; in saying that, I am not overly familiar with English buses, so the 22 to Putney Common may actually be, well, common.) Danochy ☎  02:49, August 17, 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree, it's not our business to litigate plagiarism. But if we point out supposed references where there are none, that could indicate malice on the part of writers unintentionally, especially depending on the personal history of those involved. The example I mentioned is deeply relevant, as there's some very bad blood between those involved. Do we mention that on this page? Do we note that Miles felt that the two things were similar in some respects? Do we note the similarities and move on, without further comment? Similar issues with The Doctor's Wife emerge, with some of Miles' fans comparing it to Toy Story, while others in the community actually comparing it to Nineveh!, saying it's not that similar to Toy Story. These aren't fun topics, but they come up quite a lot in relation to Miles and Moffat. Both together and independently. Najawin ☎  03:02, August 17, 2020 (UTC)


 * Oh, I see what you mean now. I would argue that we should only included adaptations on the page if we have evidence they are adapted, rather than just similar. Notes on similarity (or any "bad blood") belong on the pages in question. This isn't a page for "Things which are similar between the expanded universe and the modern series" it's for proper references only. I'd say it's hard to define a line there, but references are few enough in number that we can take controversial points on a case-by-case basis, I should think. Danochy ☎  04:45, August 18, 2020 (UTC)

Fair. So should we have a policy for possible "inspiration" like the following? Say I thought that The Name of the Doctor (TV story) was referencing Unnatural History (novel), in that there's a companion who's preternaturally perfect for The Doctor, ends up meeting another version of her who doesn't remember him, there's a time rift that a decaying TARDIS is around, and a situation that is solved by the companion jumping into the rift. I make a new post on the talk page arguing that this a reference in the show to this novel and let people respond to me, but since it's not immediately obvious I don't just go ahead and edit it in. Does that seem reasonable? (For the record, I have no intention of making such a post - I'm 100% down with the collaborative nature of art and have no idea if this was in any way intentional, this is just an example of how someone would do this.) Najawin  ☎  05:12, August 18, 2020 (UTC)

Rename proposal
"List of external DWU references in BBC television stories"? Najawin ☎  01:36, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm… good thinking to trim it odwn, but "external DWU references" is a bit hard to parse at first glance. Also, while I don't imagine there's many people who'd interpret it that way, just saying "in BBC television stories" could theoretically refer to references to the DWU in other, non-DW-related BBC shows (e.g. things like The Lollipop Man).--Scrooge MacDuck ☎  01:42, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * "List of references made in DWU BBC television stories to things in the DWU not from BBC television stories." :>
 * I'm pretty sure this thing is just gonna be clunky if we have to be as precise as you're suggesting and we don't use the term "EU". Najawin ☎  01:54, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * If nothing else — that is to say, even if we relaxed our rule against using the term, which is just a natural extension of T:NPOV — I believe the term EU would still be quite inappropriate if we're going to include Torchwood, SJA, and even bleeding home video minisodes (which aren't even television!) on this thing. If there's such a thing as a Doctor Who Expanded Universe, SJA is clearly a part of it.


 * How about "List of references to other DWU media in BBC TV stories"? Although that would require we ditch the Brig minisode. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  02:00, August 17, 2020 (UTC)


 * I think the Brig minisode should go as is actually, it's not a television story. We need to instead think of it being part of the "BBC production" to count, which is even more complicated for a title. I think that's fine, maybe the wording could be quibbled with a bit, but in broad strokes it works. Najawin ☎  02:03, August 17, 2020 (UTC)


 * I think Liberty Hall should stay, as it's pretty much like any other mini-sode, such as The Inforarium or The Night of the Doctor, which are considered part of the TV series. Epsilon the Eternal ☎  02:09, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

I agree that those things are part of the production of Series Seven and the narrative of Series Seven, but do not agree that they are television episodes, so would also call for their removal from this page by the strict wording of the title. Najawin ☎  02:13, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm with Najawin. I don't think any minisodes should be on the page, even the one that are considered to be part of TV seasons. It just gets messy. DVD extras are "Expanded Universe" by any reasonable metric, whether or not they slot into seasons (which Liberty Halls, in any event, does not). What if a BBC novel is ever marketed as "a bonus episode in Series 17 of Doctor Who", or whatever? What then?


 * IMO, this page is skirting too close to the edges of T:NPOV as it is without giving special treatment to EU things that happen to be live-action. It's a bit unfortunate that we have to leave out things like The Inforarium in the process, but that's the way of the world. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  02:15, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

And then there's the whole "novelization of tv stories written by the same authors" nuance to the discussion, which, sure, better explains their thought process for references (and could be taken as filling in gaps in the narrative), but also adds to the text in ways that wasn't present in the original. Best to just stick to episodes. Najawin ☎  02:20, August 17, 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for starting a rename discussion. I wasn't super keen on the current name myself, but I couldn't think of anything better at the time. I broadly agree with Scrooge's suggestion, although I'm not a fan of the word "other". Perhaps it could be "List of references to non-televised DWU media in BBC TV stories", just to be entirely clear.


 * As for the claim of T:NPOV, I created this page after an online discussion in which numerous people were looking for an article which lists all these references. Yes, it focuses on TV, but our primary concern here is to serve the fans, and this is a topic which is of interest to many fans. There's also nothing stopping similar such pages being created for other media.


 * So yeah, I also agree that most home videos and webcasts should be excluded from this list. The only problem I can see with that, is a future where webcasts or home videos might become a mainstream way of broadcasting the show, but that's really an issue for the forums. That leaves broadcast episodes of Doctor Who (Including Shada? The television story originated first, despite being released later, so I feel it should not count as a reference to its novelisation or webcast predecessors) Class, Torchwood, SJA, and K9 and Company. K9 should be excluded, on account of it being non-BBC, and therefore EU. Danochy ☎  02:45, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean, as I said, I think by any reasonable metric SJA and K9 and Company count as "EU". Torchwood might too, although perhaps the fact that it has (had?) significant following among people not otherwise interested in the DWU might disqualify it. But none of that matters if we're not going to include the term "EU" on the page.


 * At any rate, one reason I'd insist on "other" over "non-televised" is… what if a BBC TV story ever references a televised non-BBC story? It's not terribly likely or anything — but if an episode of Doctor Who ever name-drops the Korven, this seems like the sort of thing this page should document. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  02:49, August 17, 2020 (UTC)


 * Oh, that is true. I even mentioned K9, I should really have thought of that! I guess "other" is the only option we have, then, unless we wanted to repeat ourselves in the title. The only other option is if we reworded it to instead say "List of references in BBC television stories to other DWU media". I'd probably prefer the former.


 * One more thing… if we choose not to include references in webcasts or home videos, I think we should also opt to ignore references to those webcasts/home videos which are a part of the television series. For example, it would hardly make sense to count the references to Pond Life or Asylum of the Daleks Prequel which have made their way onto the television. So, just to be clear, I think we should exclude stories which are a part of a series when it comes to both making the references and for being referenced. Danochy ☎  03:03, August 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a bit messy, though. After thinking some more on the subject, I propose List of references to non-televised works in live-action BBC stories, which seems like an unambiguous, unequivocal description of what the page currently covers. I suppose the one edge case with that title would be if a minisode references another, also-non-televised minisode, but I'm not sure that situation has ever even come up, if we're talking about references rather than just plain "one is a sequel to the other"-ness. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  22:30, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Edge case: War Council
So here's one for you. The Time Lords' War Council was first mentioned in the BBC Eighth Doctor Adventures novel The Taking of Planet 5 in the context of the War in Heaven, and the Council later appeared in audio in The True History of Faction Paradox. Then The Day of the Doctor showed the War Council in the context of the Last Great Time War. Is this an instance of a reference to the "EU" in a TV story? Or is it a coincidence? – N8  ( ☎ / 👁️ ) 18:20, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * It is well-known that Steven Moffat, who wrote The Day of the Doctor, followed the War arc in the EDAs with interest — although I am not sure he read all of the EDAs. A coincidence strains belief.


 * There's never going to be an explicit REF source for every reference; if we limited this page to connections which have been officially stamped as Intentional Easter Eggs(TM) by the authors of the relevant stories, it would contain maybe three things. Four, tops. Thus, the only sane way to run this page is negatively. If there seems to be a direct narrative connection between a non-TV story and a later TV episode, it's a reference until proven otherwise.


 * Therefore, here, in the absence of a hypothetical denial from Moffat, and with the strong circumstancial evidence that Moffat is familiar with War in Heaven lore, I can find no reasonable grounds for excluding this reference from the page. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  18:29, 11 December 2020 (UTC)