Talk:Ulysses

truth
Is Ulysses really the doctor's father? --Ceryu 04:33, September 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * If you accept the novels as canonical, then almost certainly. (It's never completely confirmed, but the hints are very clear.) Of course, since Doctor Who doesn't really have a canon, everybody's free to pick and choose what bits of the mythos to accept and which bits to ignore. It's up to you, really. But that was the intention of the authors who featured him. —Josiah Rowe talk to me 02:51, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Move
Shouldn't this article be named Ulysses? The policy is to use the most common name.I can't say with certainty which is more common as I have not read the novels, but nearly every mention of him in this article uses Ulysses. CloneMarshalCommanderCody ☎  21:50, September 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * If you think it should be renamed, put a tag on the page. Not many people patrol the talk pages, and maybe a tag will attract someone who actually knows which one is the common name. Shambala108  ☎  01:04, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Appearance in Listen
The information about his appearance in Listen keeps getting removed. Apparently this is confirmed in Doctor Who Extra (I haven't seen it yet) but if you watch it will say. But I'm not 100% sure. Lewody1 ☎  22:06, September 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm the one who removed the info. First, nothing in Listen says the man in the barn is the Doctor's father, let alone a guy named Daniel Joyce. Second, even if DWE says its him, we can't include that because it is not a valid source for in-universe articles.  P&amp;P   talk   contribs  22:10, September 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Quite correct, PicassoAndPringles. I don't think Listen allows us to even call the "male voice" in the scene the boy's father. He speaks of "the other boys" in a way that seems more like someone running an orphanage than someone talking about his own children.


 * In any case, this article has become massively confused. It should likely be separated into four articles: Ulysses, Daniel Joyce, Chronotis and The Doctor's father, with an attempt made to include in each of those article only information that is directly stated about those people. In other words, we should assume that they are different individuals until absolutely convincing proof is put forward. At that point, and only at that point, we could talk about merging whichever ones need to be merged.


 * It's important to remember that Lance Parkin, the writer of the only two books I can find to directly mention Ulysses, The Infinity Doctors and The Gallifrey Chronicles, firmly says in the former that Ulysses is not the Doctor's father.


 * Indeed the connection between Ulysses and Joyce is very tenuous, coming through an offhand remark in Infinity. After Parkin says that the Doctor's father is not Ulysses, he then goes on say "but a professor in Berkley". Well that is not the same thing as saying Ulysses is Joyce.  And even if it were, Infinity has an unusual setting that makes it difficult to consider a part of the "normal" DWU, as witnessed by a multi-month discussion on this wiki.


 * As for Daniel Joyce, that name is only in Unnatural History, so far as I can tell, and if he's meant to be the Doctor's father, the Doctor is surely acting awfully formally towards him. Indeed, in Interference, Larry Miles posits that Daniel Joyce is Chronotis, and there's zero hint, much less explicit statement, that Joyce is the Doctor's father in that novel. As far as my skim over the material is concerned, they really seem like acquaintances, not father and son. And of course, if Joyce is Chronotis, then the Doctor's behaviour towards Chronotis in Shada is obviously not that of a son to a father. Indeed, we'd have to read that story fundamentally differently than we do.


 * And there are zero instances of "father" in The Gallifrey Chronicles which refer to the Doctor's father. Joyce's name doesn't appear there. Only Ulysses appears — and Parkin has already said, though it's unclear whether it "counts", cause it's in the strange Infinity Doctors, that Ulysses is not the Doctor's father.


 * So this is a case where we need to go back to the source material, and rewrite these articles, adhering as closely to the text as we possibly can. We're regurgitating a lot of half-remembered material here, and it's really rather important to return to fact-based writing. 23:39: Sat 13 Sep 2014


 * Just for the record, Doctor Who Extra doesn't say anything about who the two people were. Slughorn42 ☎  22:11, September 14, 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I'dd like to reopen the conversation from the above section. In 2014, the decision made to split the pages was undoubtedly the correct one: there's no reason to think that the male voice in Listen is the Doctor's father; and in all my time reading Interference, I've never noticed a reason to think that Ulysses is Chronotis (unsurprising, as such an identification would contradict everything we know about both characters!) However, I believe there were a few splits too many. Specifically, there is more than enough evidence in valid, narrative sources to confirm that Daniel Joyce is the same character as Ulysses, and that he is the Doctor's father.

(For the sake of brevity, I'm abbreviating The Gallifrey Chronicles as TGC, The Infinity Doctors as TID, and Unnatural History as UH.)


 * In UH, the Doctor says that Joyce is a "fitting" name; in the real world, James Joyce wrote the book Ulysses. Additionally, Daniel Joyce's fictional career backstory says he comes from Ithaca, NY; is the home of the mythological Ulysses.


 * In TGC, Larna meets Ulysses and helps him study a temporal cicatrix. In UH, Larna is still working with Daniel Joyce and studying a temporal cicatrix.


 * In TID, the Doctor reflects that his father is "a professor at Berkeley." This is Daniel Joyce's exact profession in UH.


 * In TGC, Ulysses is described as "a powerfully built man with white hair and a clipped beard". In TIH, the portrait of the Doctor's parents above the fireplace depicts a man who's "powerfully built with rugged features, a weathered face with dark eyes". In UH, Daniel Joyce has a "neatly trimmed white beard and creases round the corners of his eyes from squinting." White hair, a short beard, "powerfully built": these are the same man.


 * In TID, the Doctor reflects that "his mother's name had been Penelope," and that she was "a redhead, a little plump." In TGC, the human woman Penelope Gate is Ulysses' wife, and they have a son together; she has "red hair hung wild to her waist." In the same book, the Doctor remembers his mother's "long red hair and her cut-glass voice." This is the same woman.


 * In TID, the Doctor also thinks that "he knew his father's name, at least: his father's name wasn't Ulysses." Above, CzechOut used this as evidence against Ulysses being the Doctor's father. However, consider the strange phrasing and emphasis of the quote, along with the scene from UH where, after the Doctor recounts a memory of his father and Saldaamir, the boy asks: "Is this the version where they banned all mention of his name, and yours, for consorting with aliens? Or the one where he got every record of himself deleted from the files?" The Doctor knows his father's name, but that name has been banned and deleted, so he knows it isn't his name. Given that TID was originally conceived as a two-parter with the book that became UH, it's unsurprising that Parkin would include this kind of connection.


 * Saldaamir is stated to be an associate of the Doctor's father in UH, and in TID he's a friend of the Doctor's family. When Saldaamir subsequently appears for the first time in TGC, he's working closely with Ulysses and Penelope Gate. Additionally, in Beige Planet Mars, Saldaamir says that he's going to San Francisco, which is where Daniel Joyce is teaching at UC Berkeley in UH.

This is just the material from valid sources, and it makes it more than clear that the Doctor's father is Ulysses and that Ulysses is Daniel Joyce. However, just to reinforce the case, opening our search to invalid sources -- such as Lance Parkin's unpublished Enemy of the Daleks, the ample authorial statements from Kate Orman and John Blum, or the unproduced Eighth Doctor television scripts where the Doctor's father was first conceived as the Berkeley professor named Ulysses -- further cements the equivalence.

Many moons ago I created a hypothetical merger of Ulysses, Daniel Joyce, and The Doctor's father at my sandbox. However, given the ample precedent we have since developed of "By another account" language on pages like The Doctor's species and The Doctor's early life, I would also be okay with just executing the merge I've requested via the template, then adding a significant "According to some sources, the Doctor's father was Ulysses..." section to The Doctor's father. What do others think? – n8 (☎) 22:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)


 * This makes a lot of sense, and is in accordance with the texts. This merger would be an improvement on the wiki's current coverage of the subject, and (as someone who's read all these things) I fully support it! CoT     ?  22:37, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Although the evidence just from PROSE: Unnatural History and PROSE: The Gallifrey Chronicles chronicles was already rather compelling, I was originally hesitant upon reading this argument, due to it seeming not to do enough to justify the usage of The Infinity Doctors as a source. But, in light of Talk:Alternate timeline (The Infinity Doctors), I now see fully what you had in mind, and this makes sense. I won't perform it just yet for the reason I will explain in a moment, but yep, we ought to merge Ulysses and Joyce at least.


 * But as to whether those two ought to be merged into The Doctor's father, I'm of two minds. In theory I can see how it would insure us against future stories which may describe the Doctor's father in ways clearly irreconcilable with the "Ulysses" strand, but I'm not sure we have enough conflict there yet to justify a The Doctor's species-type hub. I'd kinda be of the opinion of merging everything for now, but keeping an eye on the option of recreating an independent The Doctor's father page from scratch, under the The Doctor's species/The Doctor's ninth incarnation template, if sufficient conflict to justify it does arise.


 * Thoughts? Scrooge MacDuck ☎  14:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that the only purpose of a separate page for The Doctor's father would be futureproofing; as it currently stands, all information about him is either (a) tidbits from Parkin/Orman/Blum's EDAs, which is intended to be about Ulysses; or (b) memories of stargazing from the Eighth Doctor movie or copied from it, which is practically wedded to (a). I can definitely get behind the approach of the page as it currently exists being merged into Ulysses, with the option of creating a disambiguation page at a later point. (If we're going this route, I'll update User:NateBumber/Sandbox/Ulysses so you can merge those three pages into that one, then move it to Ulysses.) – n8 (☎) 14:59, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay! Makes sense. Please do, and ping me when you're done so the merge can go forward. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  15:05, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, there we are, then! Thank you for your work and input. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  18:02, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Braxiatel and the Doctor's sisters
Has it ever been specifically stated that Ulysses / Daniel Joyce / the Doctor's father was the father of Braxiatel and the Doctor's sisters? Simply being the Doctor's brother / sisters does not necessarily mean that they are this character's children. RadMatter ☎  19:47, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
 * …Doesn't it? I'm unsure about the sisters, but Irving is solidly the Doctor' brother, not their half-brother; and Irving grew up on Gallifrey, attended the Academy and whatnot, so no Other/Timeless Child hedges there. It's thus a matter of logic that we recognise that the Doctor's father is also Irving's father. By the same token, for all that there is surely no story stating so directly, we would not be unjustified in saying Ulysses was logically John's great-grandfather or Ian Campbell's great-great-grandfather, although of course there isn't an infobox field for that so it doesn't come up.


 * But I may be missing something. Could you elaborate? Scrooge MacDuck ☎  19:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)


 * How do you know that he is his full brother? People that I know who are half-siblings don't always state that, they just call themselves brothers / sisters. Also, some accounts have the Doctor being loomed so his "brother" is not that straight forward. RadMatter ☎  19:57, 5 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Traditionally looms produce Cousins and no siblings at all, so whether he is a brother or half-brother, Brax's existence is evidence that if the Doctor was loomed, it wasn't under the traditional circumstances. (But it's easy to imagine how the Doctor and Brax could be siblings and loomed. Just to give an example, it's easy to imagine Ulysses and Penelope Gate using the Loom of Lungbarrow on their own, out of schedule, thus producing one or two children who would specifically be theirs.)


 * It is true that half-siblings sometimes refer to themselves as just "brother" and "sister" in casual conversation, but I think it would be more speculative than not to dwell overmuch on this possibility if nothing actively suggests it. Some accounts have demonstrated that it is possible to view the Hartnell era under the lens that the Doctor and Susan are not actually related, and he is merely a kind of "adopted grandfather-figure" to her; but that is not a possibility we should have awarded any significant length to, had those accounts not put forward the alternative, I should think.


 * …Also, the following is too speculative to be the bedrock of Wiki policy on its own, but being frank: if anybody puts forward Brax being a half-brother to the Doctor, it's going to be in the context of their sharing a (Time Lord) father, with the Doctor being the only son of Ulysses' human consort while Braxiatel is a full-blooded Time Lord. Not only has nobody suggested the Doctor and Brax could just share a mother, but the suggestion that they would is quite unlikely.


 * I dunno. I definitely see what you're saying, but… I think the way I'd put it is that you seem to be saying that "brother" is a term which can correctly be applied to full siblings or to half-siblings. Whereas in my view, "brother" means "full sibling," but can sometimes be used in place of "half-sibling" for expediency's sake in casual conversations — such that if a source just says "brother," the default should be that they do mean "brother," not "half-brother". Scrooge MacDuck ☎  20:09, 5 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Susan Foreman and Miranda Dawkins are not listed on every Doctor's page that they haven't interacted with. So why would Braxiatel have a father named on his page that he has never interacted with / or been referenced alongisde? RadMatter ☎  20:20, 5 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Well, in point of fact, this page currently contains an anecdote that Irving relates about "his father". I suppose your point stands for the Doctor's sisters either way, and I shall presently remove them. But Irving is pricklier — if we decide we're not sure the Doctor and he share a father, we need to split this page, spinning off the one sentence about "Irving's father" into Irving Braxiatel's father. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  20:24, 5 February 2021 (UTC)


 * As a new point of data regarding The Doctor's sisters, "Daniel Joyce" did in fact have a daughter on Earth, so that's one of the Doctor's sisters right there. – n8 (☎) 00:00, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Heh. Except that's the Doctor's half-sister, isn't it. Oh dear. What a mess. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  00:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Something to keep in mind
Since the merger (which I believe has significantly improved this page), it's come to my attention that it was Marc Platt's intention in Lungbarrow that Andred and Leela's baby was the Doctor. Which would add Leela to the possible identities of the Doctor's mother, which is no problem; and add Andred alongside Ulysses as a possible identity of the Doctor's father ... which was merged into this page, due to my exhaustive lobbying. :(

Anyway, I've done a bit of head-scratching about what kind of simple heuristic could be used to divide this page without compromising this page's integrity, but I believe I have it: everything from books by Lance Parkin and Kate Orman should remain on Ulysses ; everything else (mainly TV Movie-style memories of stargazing, plus Irving Braxiatel's brandy) should be moved to The Doctor's father ; and specific references to the father in Parkin/Orman books, including descriptions of his appearance, should be duplicated in a "Ulysses" section on The Doctor's father. That way the bulk of the page will still be listed under the Ulysses header in a "Possible identities" section, but the equally-valid Andred implication can also be given appropriate weight.

The whole thing gives me a headache; I'm still waiting on User:NateBumber/Sandbox/Ulysses to get merged (just for edit history's sake), so I'm in no rush to create a whole new Sandbox for it. But let this stand as a reminder to myself to toss together a page and proper attribution statement for turning The Doctor's father into a non-redirect ... unless someone wants to beat me to it! :) – n8 (☎) 19:55, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Move not so fast, my friend! There is much we have yet to establish. For one thing, authorial intent counts for diddly-squat in these matters. For another, this authorial intent makes Andred and Leela but the Other's father and the Other's mother; the identities of the people who reared the Doctor after his "reincarnation" remains another matter entirely, and there do Ulysses and the Doctor's mother come in.


 * It seems, furthermore, entirely wrongheaded to want to move the reference in Doctor Who out of this page when the Parkin/Orman conception of Ulysses largely grew out of the scenes — or, if you want to look at it another way, that those scenes grew out of the same Leekley sources as the Parkin/Orman Ulysses. I do not see why all non-contradictory information known about "the Doctor's father" should not linger at Ulysses. We have never segregated accounts based on "who wrote them", as opposed to what is materially in the text, and that would in my opinion be a monstrously bad precedent to set. Instead I point to your own work on the Time Lord messenger (Genesis of the Daleks) as the better precedent: the events neutrally attributed to "the guy in Genesis", like The Slyther of Shoreditch, should rightly be construed to apply to all his potential identities, and the information summarised on each of Ferain, Valyes and so on. It should not matter if we learn that Mike Tucker was thinking of Ferain over Valyes or over Valentine: on paper the information seems applicable to several of the potential candidates, and should therefore be reflected on each of their pages without prejudice.


 * We should probably give some thought to resplitting The Doctor's father for the future, but on current information I don't see that anything has changed since the merge was agreed. And either way, your proposed way to split, while reasonable in the abstract, does not match the Wiki's philosophies in some key respects. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  22:58, 17 May 2021 (UTC)