Talk:Eighth Doctor/Archive 4

Infobox pic
It was decided by discussion some time ago that the infobox pic was the best possible pic we could have of McGann, given his singular performance. Now that he's had two performances, though, the question can be opened up again. Anyone have strong feelings as to whether the image should be from the TVM or Night of the Doctor? 01:02: Thu 28 Nov 2013
 * Even if Eight's appearance towards the end of his life is more representative, Night of the Doctor simply does not have the best lighting. If a well-light left-looking image of Eight from NOTD can be found, though, I'm all game. --SOTO ☎ 01:10, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose one question I'd have to ask, seeing as how I'm only somewhat familiar with the Lucie audios and none of the books or comics: is it the TVM or Night appearance which is more representative of everything else in those 17 years in between (prose and comic depictions, and any narration describing how Eight looks in audio), particularly short hair versus wig? -- Tybort (talk page) 01:41, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * In the Short Trips stories, he is described as having shoulder length curly brown hair. Shambala108 ☎  02:06, November 28, 2013 (UTC)

If you want a pic from NOTD would this do?



- MrSiriusBlack ☎  14:43, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

If not, what about this --> [] from the TVM? MrSiriusBlack ☎  14:47, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Here are some guidelines to what we look for in infobox pictures: Tardis:Guide to images. Unfortunately, the image you've suggested here doesn't quite meet the guidelines. It's not close-up enough, and it's a bit dark. Shambala108 ☎  15:21, December 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Probably a bit premature to actually be suggesting pics. The question before to start with is just whether we should stick with TVM or choose something from TNOTD. Let's settle that first before we go putting up a lot of alternative images.   23:05: Wed 18 Dec 2013

I like the look of Eight from the Night of the Doctor, patly because the production values that time around were greatly superior to the movie where its always grainy and he looks a bit off-- Storm Long nights  lay ahead. 21:03, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see much in the way of grain in the current pic. I'd assume that the Doctor Who Restoration Team would have sorted that out for one of the DVD releases, but the movie's not fresh in my mind. To me, unless there's really good evidence that, as SOTO says, the end-of-Eight's-life era is more representative of Eight in general, the one from the tele-movie we have (which itself has a lot of dim shots throughout as I recall) is just better lit than most NOTD images I've seen taken. Keep in mind that what's legible in a thumbnail is not the same as what's legible in the image's "original" size. -- Tybort (talk page) 21:58, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, regarding what I said ages before regarding audio narration, in the pre-Dark Eyes audio Storm Warning, Lord Tamworth calls the Eighth Doctor a "long haired stowaway". -- Tybort (talk page) 13:16, April 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * Also in part two of Blood of the Daleks as late as 2007, Lucie describes him as having "long hair. Velvet jacket. Funny collar. Big cravat. Waistcoat. Probably thinks he looks smart but looks like he's never shopped anywhere trendy in his life." -- Tybort (talk page) 22:25, July 5, 2015 (UTC)

Continuity
He goes through a list of his previous companions in chronological order, and places novel companions before audio ones.

When does this happen? I have recently re-listened to the entirety of the Company of Friends(including Mary's Story), and while he mentions various companions, there's no "chronological list".

Console Room
"the first to radically and completely transform the console room" What happened to the Fourth Doctor's cool wooden one? Doesn't that count? -Aochider ☎  23:54, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really. That was the second console room — a physically distinct location. The article is talking about the console room.  The primary one.  See the beginning of The Masque of Mandragora, episode one, for clarification.   16:22: Sun 06 Apr 2014

There is no 'three year break"
I posted this on the Theory Timeline Eighth Doctor. And here it is again.

It is received wisdom that there is a "three year gap" between Bounty (audio story) and Vampire Science. This article states as much. However, that is nonsense. Examining what the Eighth Doctor Adventures (and other material) in question 'actually say, we discover that there is no such thing.

Placing the Eighth Doctor comic stories(DWM) after The Gallifrey Chronicles makes no sense.

1) DWM refererd to the "newly-regenerated" Eighth Doctor for Endgame. And in The Glorious Dead Part 9, The Master says:

"In the past few months alone you have warped the Holloway woman's future(The TV Movie), shattered Sato's honour(The Road to Hell) and attempted to murder the benevolent Kroton(The Company of Thieves). "

So, the Doctor Who Magazine comics come very soon after The TV Movie, and everything from The TV Movie to the end of The Glorious Dead takes place over "a few months". To say nothing of the Threshold storyline. Would the Threshold wait for the Doctor to have centuries of other adventures before saying "Remember us?" Of course not.

2)And as stated, the Eighth Doctor Adventures make it clear what really happened between Bounty (audio story) and Vampire Science.

i)In Seeing I, Chapter 12:

"She shook her head with a grin. 'Ahh, come off it. You were taking side trips even when we first got together. It was three months for me, three years for you..."

ii)In Placebo Effect, Chapter 3:

"Sam laughed. 'Who's getting hitched?'

'Two dear friends of mine. I haven't seen them for a while.'

Sam raised an eyebrow. 'Anyone I know?'

'No. No. I don't think so. They...travelled with me for a few months'.

'How long ago?'

'Ah. Well. Promise you won't get upset?'

Sam's other eyebrow raised. 'Oh yes? This sounds good'.

'Remember not long after we first met, and I dropped you off at that Greenpeace rally in Canada?'

'Uh-huh'.

The Doctor smiled. Sheepishly. 'Well, you know that while only a few hours passed for you-'

'You'd been gone nearly a year of your time. Yes, I remember'.

'Well, I met them then.' The Doctor took the book back. After we parted, they stayed together. Very romantic, I suppose. "

iii)And Vampire Science, Page 160 actually says:

"One day he dropped me off at a rally, and when I got back he told me he'd just popped off in the TARDIS for a while. A pretty long while, actually - like a year."

iv)While the "three years" is the Doctor's age since regenerating(in The TV Movie), from Page 206 of Vampire Science:

" 'Well, I don't know who he was I'm still not sure I know who you are.' He moved as if to get up, and she reached out to his shoulder to keep him there. 'There are all these basic little things you still haven't told me yet. I mean - how old are you?'

He thought for a moment, counting back through the months. 'Three.'

'What?' She sat up and stared at him. 'Three what? Centuries? Three oogleplexes? What?'

he shook his head. 'No, no, three years. I'm sure I heard Sam lecturing you about regeneration.'

'Well, yeah but-'

'It's all perfectly simple. That's how long it's been since my last fatal accident. That's when this body was born.'

'No, no, no. I mean how old are you really? All your lives together.' Good grief, she thought irritatedly, it sounds like you're interviewing Shirley MacLaine.

'Well, I'm not really sure. there's some question of whether I lost count.'

'Round it off, at least.'

He started frantically counting on his fingers. 'Um, about...'

'Come on, it can't take that long to-'

'...one thousand and twelve.'

Silence.

'Carolyn?'

This was sensible, it was logical, when someone's lived a bunch of lives in succession it's reasonable for them to go past a normal human lifespan. She really should have thought about this before - it was obvious really. There was absolutely no reason for suddenly to be feeling cold.

He moved over until he was sitting next to her. 'It's a big number, isn't it?' he said quietly.

She nodded without a word.

He smiled gently. and the corners of his eyes crinkled up. 'I know. That' why I prefer three'. "

So, there is no "three year gap". This is sort of equivalent to the Eleventh Doctor and Clara. They travel together for a while, he drops her off at home, travels alone(or with other companions), then returns and travels with Clara, then drops her off, and travels alone, then...

The Eighth Doctor aged three years from The TV Movie to Vampire Science. However, he travelled off and on with Sam during those three years. And his sheepish smile suggests that this "nearly a year" gap which included his travels with Stacy and Ssard, as well as (from Page 20) "Met up with some friends. Saved Earth from alien invaders. Hung around with an old archaeology chum of mine"(The Dying Days) is the longest of these "side trips".

Or to put it another way, there is no chance of using one of these gaps for where he travelled with one companion for "three or four years", as well as the travels with Mary, Samson and Gemma.

It must go something like: The TV Movie-The Eight Doctors-The Dying Days-Eighth Doctor comic stories(DWM)-Radio Times Comics-Doctor travels with Sam again-Totem-Doctor travels with Sam again-short stories where Doctor is travelling alone-Doctor travels with Sam again...Master of Spiders ☎  16:01, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the Eighth Doctor has ever been elusive to track, because the various parties involved in creating his stories not only didn't co-ordinate, but they sometimes actively chose to contradict. This article was at one time — probably before the release of The Company of Friends, a widely misinterpreted anthology, in my view — much more hesitant to mix media. I seem to recall a structure whereby the comic, novel and audio stuff was kept more or less separate, inviting the reader to "pick their poison".  But in Mary's Story, there's a point where there's an older Eighth Doctor who kinda rattles off a shopping list of former companions, kinda the way he did right before regeneration in The Night of the Doctor.  Only, this time he mixed together various media. And that was the first, and maybe still the only confirmation, that the media are intertwined in some way.


 * But I still don't think that means when we're writing this article that we should then mix together all the media. To do so invites nothing but speculation.  It is enough to say in an introductory paragraph that all these things happened to the Eighth Doctor, but we're not really sure when or in what order.


 * What this article does now is largely to make a prose version of the Doctor Who Reference Guide's list. And that's not only a mistake but contrary to our agreed policy. DWRG is a wholly separate project.  It's not our job to confirm or deny their work. It's our job to make this article as clear, concise and accurate as possible.  And I think clarity would come from, in this one case, breaking apart the media, giving a chronology within each media, and then saying we don't understand how the adventures with Fitz and company relate to those with Izzy or to those with Charley and Lucie.  In other words, the most helpful section heads, it seems to me, would be:
 * Travels with Sam
 * Travels with Izzy
 * Travels with whoever
 * Then, we make no effort at all to make sense of how they fit together. We leave it at an exact quote from Mary's Story, and just say, in so many words, "The Doctor's statement means that somehow these travels all fit together, but we don't know how." 16:54: Sun 06 Apr 2014

That wasn't actually the point. The points were that

a)The article states: " THREE YEAR BREAK

The Doctor left Sam Jones at a Greenpeace rally and went adventuring alone for three years. (PROSE: Vampire Science) This extended side trip..."

...which is utter nonsense. As shown above, Vampire Science says nothing of the sort. It says that the Doctor has been in his Eighth incarnation for three years. But Vampire Science, Seeing I and Placebo effect all state that there was no singular "three year gap, rather a series of 'side steps' and that the longest of these gaps was about a year. In this one gap are the Radio Times strips and (possibly) The Dying Days(as per the "archaeologist" quote).

b)As such there is no chance at all of the Eight/Charley/C'rizz stories taking place here.

c)It is very clear from The Glorious Dead(as well as writings from DWM) that the Izzy comic strips follow on very very closely from The TV Movie.

d)Now, as you said, things like Zagreus, The Glorious Dead, Sometime Never all speak of the "multiverse" or "omniverse" and tell us that it may not be the same Eighth Doctor experiencing all these adventures. While something like The Company of Friends tells us that it could be.(And as per Night of the Doctor where the Eighth Doctor only mentions Big Finish companions, The Flood only shows us comic companions(and Grace), while The Gallifrey Chronicles only mentions novel companions). However, here's the thing:

e)If it's just telling us adventures Eight had, and not trying to force a chronology(which is a very good idea), why are the Charley/C'rizz audios then placed in the "three year gap"(which does not exist at all). It is obviously correct to place the Stacy/Ssard adventures between The Eight Doctors and Vampire Science, but why the BFA ones?

For that matter if it's just about giving accounts of Eight's travels in the various media, why do the DWM comics get places so late? Eight was travelling with Izzy and Fey before The Dying or Days or The Eight Doctors were ever published, and long before Big Finish even existed. If it's just about Eight's various media, Izzy etc. should come right after Grace/Chang Lee. Then Sam/Fitzetc(with Radio Times/Benny). Then Charley/C'rizz etc.. Then Lucie/Tamsin/ Then Molly. Then Night of the Doctor. With short stories etc. mixed in where appropriate. Endgame(comic) was published more than six months before The Dying Days, and years before Big Finish ever existed. Eight's first ongoing adventures were comics, not novels or audios. Master of Spiders ☎  17:18, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sort of in the dark about this whole thing (out of the following, I've only seen the webcast version of Shada), but even if there's no room during that year break for Charley and C'rizz, it seems weird to imply or assert that the Doctor meets up with Romana II in the Shada webcast and the Neverland and Zagreus stuff (with Charley) after the novels with Romana III, Fitz and Compassion. I'm sort of with Czech where (apart from stuff which is asserted like meeting up with an archaeologist and the "past few months" comment), we don't give any assertions to any positioning of the Shada webcast and audio play; Mary; Gemma/Samson; Charley/C'rizz; Lucie/Tamsin/Molly relative to the relatively-certain TVM-TED-TDD-Izzy/Kroton/Destrii-Stacey/Ssard-Sam/Fitz/Compassion/Anji/Trix timeline that Master of Spiders has mentioned.


 * I'm checking the prelude of Shada, which features the Lalla Ward version of Romana as President. This is the exact quote:


 * Eighth Doctor: Romana, how are you? And is that K9?


 * K9: Master?


 * Eighth Doctor: You haven't aged a bit. Not a speck of rust.


 * Romana II: Thank you, Doctor.


 * Eighth Doctor: Nice rooms you have here, Romana. Sorry. Madame President Romana. Dark and mysterious. Gallifrey at its most typical. What do the Time Lords have against pastel?


 * Romana II: Doctor, delighted as I am to see you, and I like the new body by the way, perhaps you wouldn't mind telling me, before the entire Chancellery Guard come crashing in here demanding to know who has breached the transduction barriers and materialised a TARDIS right outside the Presidential Palace, what exactly you are doing here?


 * Basically, it's saying that Romana hasn't met Eight before here, and there's nothing from that that implies that Eight's met a later incarnation as well. I don't really understand how visits of Time Lords relative to one another works exactly. I've not read the Eighth Doctor books (though according to the page on this wiki, part of The Shadows of Avalon is actually set on Gallifrey, as with Shada's prelude, and I don't think out of sync time travel to Gallifrey works like that in any media. -- Tybort (talk page) 00:41, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Grey Hair?
Hello, I was just wondering about the grey hair comment under Appearance. As a quick note, there was no grey hair in the Night of the Doctor. While we could hand wave it away, perhaps the best solution is just to note the renewal in Mary's Story, which could explain his hair not having grey hair. I know there isn't any sort of official explanation, but it would make sense since Mary's Story ends up some unknown time later in his life. 173.76.109.163talk to me 23:33, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe he just dyed it. :) 23:41, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Age
So this article says that he is one of the longest lived doctors, but several other doctors have died of old age so wouldn't that make them much older? And when they got near dying of old age they got grey hair and stuff, but 8 never even started looking old. So the statement about his age might be false. Hylianhobbit ☎  21:22, July 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * The article's statement is based on prose and/or audio stories which have Eight living a long time. Shambala108 ☎  02:50, July 3, 2014 (UTC)

Suggested edits
Well, since the page is locked from editing due to an infobox thing, I figured I'd start this to list edits for the admins to consider following. I was about to add File:Weapons_of_Past_8th_Doctor.jpg to the page, as it is one of the best in-universe images that we have of the Night of the Doctor style McGann where he isn't covered in blood. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 21:33, August 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but do we really need to lock down the page for this long? If ya wanna do some infobox tests that are gonna take a while, do it on a sandbox. Don't lock up a main page and then do little with it OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 20:12, August 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm getting a little annoyed too. I mean, if you're going to briefly unlock it to fix a hyperlink for Prologue, why then put it back on lockdown?BananaClownMan ☎  13:42, September 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * It wasn't unlocked briefly or at all. I edited it as part of a page move process.


 * If you want to see it unlocked, I suggest you leave a message on CzechOut's talk page. He's more likely to see a message there. Shambala108 ☎  14:19, September 17, 2015 (UTC)