Howling:Theories on John Hurt

Does anybody have any theories about the role he will play? It's implied he is some kind of version of The Doctor, but the rest is completely open to speculation... 87.102.91.126talk to me 20:14, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I was hoping that it would be a modern incarnation of The Valeyard, but hey, at least he got mentioned by the intelligence. One theory I heard was that he is an incarnation in between the 8th and 9th, the one responsible for ending the time war. --Cadellin ☎  21:00, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of that theory, because we already know everything we need to about the time war. The Ninth Doctor's personality said it all. Going into more detail would make that aspect of Series 1 less effective. Although I do like the idea of an unknown incarnation that The Doctor would rather forget, if done right that would be a good direction to take the character.

However my theory is that he's a future Doctor. Considering that we saw a lot of The Doctor's past in the episode, I was wondering if we were going to see any of The Doctor's future, and when we saw John Hurt my first thought was that he was a future Doctor. Now I know that Eleven seemed to know something about Hurt, which would imply he is at least a version of The Doctor from the past, but remember The Doctor's line early in the episode about how he knew where his grave was because he's a time traveller - the same thing may apply to him knowing about Hurt. 87.102.91.126talk to me 21:45, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

87, "It's implied he is some kind of version of The Doctor": It's not implied, it's stated outright, both in dialogue & in the credits. The question, of course, is: Which incarnation is he playing?

Cadellin, "an incarnation in between the 8th and 9th, the one responsible for ending the time war": That's possible. However, it's also possible that Hurt is playing the Eighth Doctor & the difference in appearance is because of something that happened during the Time War.

Although I understand 87's fear that giving us more about the Time War might "make that aspect of Series 1 less effective", it all depends on what's revealed & how it's revealed. It easily could diminish what we saw of the Ninth Doctor but it doesn't absolutely have to. I can't work out how to reveal more about the Doctor's part in the Time War without doing damage but that doesn't mean Moffat can't. And, of course, we don't know that that's what he intends to do, anyway.

Right now, we don't have anything that can claim the status of a theory. What we have is guesswork. There's just not enough information for anything more. (I don't mean we should stop guessing; only that we ought to remember that what we're doing is guessing.) --89.242.70.9talk to me 22:31, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Eleven said "He's not The Doctor... But he is me." if I remember correctly. That's a bit too cryptic to be an outight statement.

By the way I've come up with a new theory - does anyone think he might have something to do with the Dream Lord? That would fit well with the line I quoted above, and remember what happened at the end of "Amy's Choice"? 87.102.91.126talk to me 23:06, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with the "older version of the Eighth" theory. If it were a future version of the Doctor, then the Eleventh's knowledge of the Unknown Doctor is a complete violation of Moffat's spoilers policy (which we see displayed yet again when River Song leaves a new mystery as she disappears). Furthermore, if it were the Valeyard, then I doubt the Unknown would have made the claim that he did things in the name of peace, etc. However, the idea that the Unknown is an aged version of the Eighth (especially if he were the version that created the time lock on the Last Great Time War) makes sense, since the Ninth Doctor was (supposedly) so different from the Eighth Doctor--something evidently changed him for the worse. It's also possible, of course, that the Unknown is a younger version of the First Doctor, before he took the name of "Doctor." Milar Kayne ☎  00:09, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

There is also the possibility of The Valeyard. "The Valeyard, Doctor, is your penultimate reincarnation... Somewhere between your twelfth and thirteenth regeneration" (quote from The Master). It would also be an incarnation of himself which he has already encountered, though as the darker side of him. We are, after all, approaching the Twelfth… I suspect they will make some form of mention of The Valeyard's origins in the least, for continuity's sake.  I am the Lhikan! ( TaLk )  6   3   4  01:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

87: "... he is me," is an outright statement. The first bit may be cryptic & it leaves plenty of room for doubt about what kind of version of the Doctor he is but the whole thing is still a clear statement that he's some kind of version of him. It isn't implied, it's said.

Milar Kayne: One argument against the "younger version of the First Doctor" idea is that Hurt's character was described as having broken the promise signified by the name of "Doctor". You can't break a promise without first having made that promise. Another argument against it is that the destruction of Gallifrey & the Time Lords is such a huge burden on the Doctor that it's difficult to think of how there could have been something even worse, that early in his life, without it having shown up in his behaviour long before this. Neither argument is overpowering, of course.
 * You're right about it not being likely that the Unknown is pre-First, though I noticed a theory that the Time Lord known as the Other possibly being a pre-First version of the Doctor as well. Also, as I understand it, we know all too little about the First Doctor's younger days...it's conceivable that he might have had dark times as the First. However, I do feel that the "older Eighth" is much more plausible than the "younger First" theory. Just wanted to throw it out there. :) Milar Kayne  ☎  02:35, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Lhikan634: A "supernumary" incarnation (not one of the normal 13), like the Valeyard, is possible -- especially as we know very little about the events of the Time War. At one point, the Tenth Doctor spoke of an "army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres" in the Time War. Perhaps the "Hurt Doctor" is one of the "Never-Weres" -- a version of the Doctor that would never have existed, except that he was brought into existence in the course of the Time War. --89.242.70.9talk to me 01:16, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

I would personally feel let down if John Hurt is supposed to be an older 8th doctor. While John Hurt is an amazing actor, Paul McGann has expressed interest again and again about being in the new series in some form. Paul McGann is older now, so if they're gonna do an older 8th, it should have been the real older 8th. Anyone else with me on this? In other opinions, I think that the time war is likely for the following reason: The doctor's real name, which I assume John Hurt's character would be called by, was in the book "The History of the Time War" supporting that the promise breaking that they are talking about was during the war. --TheMaelstrom ☎  02:07, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

89: That is possible. Though it is a fan work, Devious conceived a "Second-and-a-Half Doctor, an interim incarnation who had his regeneration halted between the transition from 2 into 3, then eventually completed. But from the looks of this, we've got a real mindscrew at work. Is he Eight, Nine, a "halfer", meta-crisis, clone, or what?

TheMaelstrom: I am sad, too, if Paul gets shafted for this anniversary, but he could play Eight in his prime and lead up to the elderly, "geriatric" version of his incarnation Hurt plays. So pardon me if I hijack the boards, but let me run with this idea.

Is this the Eighth Doctor at the final leg of his incarnation? It would make for an interesting plot that is akin to real life human qualities. Eight has a good life until the battles of the Time War intercede with his peace-loving nature, slowly rotting away at his integrity until they reforge him into a war-poisoned extremest, who, much like a young soldier sent into battle, was initially wide-eyed, full of hope. A knight in sour armor, broken, bitter, and all the fight's knocked out of him. Then... he dies, and is reborn as Nine. Now physically younger, some of the fight and hope gets rebuffed with the newfound vigor. But this time, so is his rage. Paul portrays "Hopeful Eighth Doctor", and he's got the act down-pat in the audio stories. But if you're going to make such a drastic change to Eight's core personality, drafting in a new actor might be a deliberate act because the writers want the change to be that much more jarring. A gravelly voice instead of an eloquent Edwardian, cold, glassy eyes, genuine liver spots, and so much pain. They don't want him recognizable to the viewers and fans... because he's corrupted into something contrary to what we know- a Knight Templar abomination. Hurt is the "Bitter in Defeat Eighth Doctor", the curtain call of his life.

Also worth noting: Eight makes a slight wardrobe change to befit his serious attitude, donning a U-boat jacket coat clashing with that dressy cravat and waistcoat, mementos of happier times to get him through the war, the precursor to his impending regeneration, putting on new garb to forget the past. When he becomes Nine, he strips the outfit of everything that reeked of Eight (since Eight is the black sheep), but retains the jacket, as it reflects how he wanted a fresh start. Time to start a new life, and leave the Edwardian's clothes behind. Shed the identity of the traitor to the Doctor's namesake, and begin anew.

Yes, November will be a rocky wait for the definitive answer. Looks like I got a little poetic. I draft up scripts for my comic projects these days. --Thunderush ☎  02:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Thunderush: Another thing to think on supporting the Time War theory and the possibility that John Hurt is 8.5 or The Real 9: Until the episode "The Lodger", I do not think it was said in story that Matt Smith was the Eleventh Doctor. Sure, we all treated it as such because we count the regenerations, and in "The Next Doctor" we saw a lineup of the doctors to that point, but the numbers have only been acknowledged in the series recently. However, if John Hurt's character is The Doctor's secret, it is conceivable that in all of the times since "The Next Doctor" that we have seen the lineup, it was a lie. History outside the time lock (and the book in the TARDIS library) would have no record of this other doctor, and The Doctor would certainly omit this Doctor from the lineup as we saw it in his mind in The Nightmare in Silver.

Although, to argue in the other direction: Can one really repair a broken promise? If one cannot, then John Hurt's character must be later in the timeline. The acts that John Hurt's Doctor was describing could be anything. Mad and evil men often say that what they do is done in the name of peace and harmony to justify their actions. Matt Smith's Doctor could simply know him because he was exposed to his future while standing beside his time rift. So much to think about! --TheMaelstrom ☎  02:29, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

TheMaelstrom: That's quite the headscratcher for the ages. It's too much to wrap your head around the answer. I like your question about fixing a broken promise. So many story elements could be born from that idea! Also, I refute my claim it's an older 8- I caught a glimpse of McGann's doctor at the start of the finale. 8.5 or 12, this new Doctor is a ticking plot bomb. --Thunderush ☎  03:06, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Thunderush, "this new Doctor is a ticking plot bomb": Regardless of what else we argue about, I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you there. --89.242.70.9talk to me 07:23, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I think it would be good if he turned out to be the First Doctor, instead of 9 or 12 or whatever else everyone is speculating. I'm partly thinking that because I'm hoping Moffat will take the character in a direction nobody has guessed - and I haven't seen any people speculating that he might be the First Doctor.

Well, apart from one person above... But they're the first I've seen. 87.102.91.126talk to me 08:36, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone considered the possibility that he's the Meta-Crisis Doctor? As we know, he committed genocide, much to The Doctor's dismay, and he also ages as a Human does. It's all a bit timey-wimey, but there's only one version of Rose that could be in the 50th, and since she's now connected to the Meta-Crisis Doctor, it would make sense. Somehow..? Gallifrey102 ☎  12:45, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...that's an interesting idea. The only problem is that at least seven other people know/knew about the Meta-Crisis Doctor: Donna Noble, Martha Jones, Jack Harkness, Rose and Jackie Tyler, and Sarah Jane and Mickey Smith. I've gotten the impression that the Doctor is the only one who really knew about his secret before he showed it to Clara, but I might be wrong. Good thought! Milar Kayne ☎  14:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

All this talk about him being an older version of 8 is a bit far fetched to me - it seems quite obvious that he is an incarnation from the doctors past the doctor would rather forget - now we have seen 1 regenerate through to 8 and 9 regenerate through to 11, so its clear Hurt places between 8 and 9. Now he cant be an older version of 8, as Clara said "I saw all 11 versions of you" if he was an older 8, he'd be an 8 never the less and invalidate Clara's statement - No, as the Doctor said, he is not a Doctor, but is a version of him - now based on what we know and have seen, both 9 and 10 suffered survivors guilt - something the doctor did obviously spooked him, something ths incarnation did! which was so severe made 9, 10 and 11 wipe him from memories. Now its all to do with the name, as the master said "The Doctor, The man who makes people better" or there abouts - clearly this doctor didnt make everyone better, but as a guess, killed a lot of people (the whole time lord race) which pretty much goes against everything a doctor strives to do and goes agans the name of the doctor - --90.220.11.198talk to me 13:33, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

We should not forget this: "the glowing tree" = his own personal timeline, past and future, and everything that resulted from it." This means this timeline was created (by the doctor?), but can (maybe) also manipulated by the doctor. Or things were left out by the doctor. This could mean that Clara didnt know of this doctor, because this is not his achievement. It was done by a doctor which broke his promise, and the doctor burried it in time itself, never to be revealed. I support in genereal the theory that this doctor stopped the timewar, and gridlocked it, because at this specific time he went insane by the actions of his own kind, and all other which didnt listen to him. Remember how mad/resigned the 10th doctor was at the end of time, where it was revealed what the TimeLords planned > rip the time vortex apart. Maybe this was the reason for him to going over the edge and ending it all. And after that, he sees the as the burning, he is sad, because he saved all creatures in the whole galaxy, but is the last of his kind. -TheRealDoctor(not registered)- 19.05.13 15:00

I don't think he's 8 in any way - were he, I doubt the Doctor would acknowledge the existence of that entire regeneration, not just segment out a part of it as having broken the promise. I do think he fits neatly into the space between 8 and 9, though, during the Time War. He seems like he knew he had done something immensely wrong, even though it was 'in the name of peace and sanity,' which fits in quite nicely with what we know about the massacre the end of the Time War was. It also fits in with the whole not calling him the Doctor as he was a bit of a warrior - might this be the Storm that Mr. G. Intelligence referred to, the reason the Daleks once referred to the Doctor as the Oncoming Storm?

As for whether a promise broken can be fixed, I think it was Ten that said that some new man saunters away - a man who can either uphold the promise of the name the Doctor and become him, or someone who can go an entirely different direction and break the promise. The actions of each incarnation depend whether or not that incarnation holds up the promise and gets to be called the Doctor. --Scieran ☎  14:03, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

The question for me is: The timeline databank from the doctor. Did the doctor left out the achievement from "john hurt"-doctor, because he broke the promise. Was this even done by himself or another person(?). AND the TARDIS window is cracked on the graveyard, and on the TARDIS in small, does this show us that the end is near. Or maybe that he changes in a story to his dark side (9th and 10th had fury moments) and travels through a crack in time back and stops all while mad. We could also discuss the possibility of an alternate doctor, which happened once. And he had a daughter, so there are some unusual ways which could produce a weird doctor....I know the last bit is not reasonable. -TheRealDoctor(not registered)- 19.05.13 15:12

He's clearly kept the information about this guy secret - even Mr. Clever, the Cyber Planner, wasn't aware of that regeneration (I'm going off the belief this is a past regeneration, not a future one, which I'll get to in a minute). Which means the Doctor keeps him locked away in his mind and can decide what others can get at information wise. If he existed entirely within the Time War, no one else would ever have to know he existed or what he did - so the Doctor could keep it a secret, his greatest secret.

Now, I believe this guy is a past regeneration, not something yet to happen. At this point in his existence, I think Moffat's going to play around and make Smith the last regeneration. By inserting Hurt in there, he bumps Smith to the 12th regeneration, and Handy burns off another regeneration (I recently rewatched the Journey's End episode, and both Ten and Handy talk like he used an entire regeneration up in doing what he did - he just didn't change his features because he had somewhere to shift that energy off to) moving Smith to 13. The reason the damage is still on the TARDIS and the desktop theme is the current one is because the Doctor really is coming to his final days... And Moffat's going to do something to deal with that and make sure he can live on in perpetuity... --Scieran ☎  14:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been wondering about that too, though I'm not sure I agree with the idea of Hurt being an extra regen. However, I do think it quite likely that Moffat will sometime answer the question of how to count the partial regeneration that formed the Meta-Crisis (aka Handy). As I said above, the "Fall of the Eleventh" prophecy makes things difficult, unless Trenzalore is actually from the Doctor's past (i.e. David Tennant's time), so I expect that the Doctor has another regeneration left before becoming the Twelfth and the Valeyard, who apparently never goes on to become the Thirteenth. Milar Kayne ☎  17:19, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Gave the whole episode some thoughts and found some interesting (possible) traps. Time travel in your dreams is possible. So what if the Valeyards falsified the memories of the doctor by creating a dark and twisted doctor which ended the timewar. This would explain why the "john hurt"-doctor is not in the timeline tree which all of the doctors achievements are in it. Another possibility would be that the Valeyard send back minor thoughts which differed only slightly from the doctors thoughts with the end result of a dark twisted doctor. Which even now treatens him and torments him in his mind. So the Valeyard could offer the doctor (in exchange for the leftover generations) to free him from this thoughts, to forget him in full.

The best theory i came up with is: The "John Hurt"-Doctor saw his possible future, the future which would happen if he dont act, and stop the war. A future with the Valeyard in it. With the TimeLord Victorious. A dark future, a dark timeline for the whole galaxy. So he could only safe the universe by staining himself, by becoming the person who broke the promise of a doctor. But he could never tell his future self, and could not forgive himself, because this would "corrupt the timelines" or "corrupt himself" into a person which sees people as sacrifies for the greater good (timelord victorious again) and becoming a new kind of Valeyard which would create an utopia timeline by sacrificing people. So before the regeneration, he was (in my opinion) quite/a human. He used a device similiar to the "chameleon arc" device, so his brain would think differently, and his thoughts would be not inside of the next doctor (himself). He would only see after the regeneration what he had done, the consequences without the real reasoning. And by doing that he is trying to help the universe as his aments to all species in the galaxy, and saving the galaxy forever, stopping the End of Time, the Valeyard and all in it. A tragical doctor, and i think John Hurt can pull this kind of acting off (this would be very hard to act!!). TheRealDoctor ☎  15:40, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * OK so one thing that ruins this Doctor being the real 9 or a pre first is how the cyberplanner said that the doctors brain went through ten regenerations and that wasn't accessing the memory just a scan of the brain I believe.But if this is the real 9th and handy counts as 12 then were on 13 so... is handy or puddy doc the valeyard?   16:11, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sooo how would the cyberplanner read the previous giveaway from regenerative energy to his hand before and the time he gave river some energy for healing...hmm? I wouldnt count the cyberplanner as a great source of accuracy. You should also read/comment my statement above yours, this gives at least an explanation for the "hidden" (possible) memory. TheRealDoctor ☎  16:28, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * We're not told for sure that David Tennant's partial regeneration counts as a separate regen, since his cells didn't necessarily change. Thus, the Cyberplanner could still be right about his evaluation of the Doctor's brain yet not include the Meta-Crisis circumstances. Also, I think we can be reasonably sure that Handy is not the Valeyard, since Handy was not able to regenerate and was only a meta-crisis, rather than a Time Lord. Furthermore, the Valeyard evidently came after the Thirteenth Doctor, as shown by his TARDIS. Milar Kayne ☎  17:19, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Valeyard was specifically said to come between 12 and 13. If he were some sort of dark-side persona that manifested during a regeneration, then he would know the faces of both the 12th and the 13 Doctors. Anyway, it seems clear that Hurt is a past Doctor, since 11 know about what he did. Yes, 11 is a time-traveller, but he seems to speak to Hurt with personal knowledge of him, which would make since if 11 actually lived through Hurt's incarnation in the Past. Since we never saw Hurt on-screen, it makes sense to place him in the Time War that happened between the two shows. Perhaps he is an alternate 9th Doctor? -- Bold  Clone  19:01, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I like your idea of an alternate Ninth more than the idea of a lost Ninth. Though it implies that somehow the Ninth, Tenth, and/or Eleventh Doctor(s) somehow met this alternate version of the Ninth. Personally, I think that his being an older Eighth is the best explanation so far. Milar Kayne ☎  19:07, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

What if the promise and the crime is something on a far smaller scale and more personal. Something that lead to a tragedy in his family which he caused. Why did the first doctor run away with his granddaughter? What happened to her parents? Were they dead before the doctor ran? Who killed them and why? Was there and incarnation before the first that did something so terrible that he had to run away from it.

Is there an accepted reason why The Doctor ran and why he took his granddaughter? Wouldn't a 50th anniversary reveal the origins (not the silly name - the reason for the Doctor's existence in the first place). The time war (and other wars) have been done. I really think this will be about why he started fixing things in the first place.

Another "Doctor"?

Is it possible (I'm not saying probable!) that The Doctor isn't the first or only person named The Doctor and, in fact, he named & modeled himself after another Gallifreyan called The Doctor who would later go on dreadful things? Heck, for all we know, it could be his father.

I haven't read all of the novels (has anyone?) and I'm sure this goes against the narrative of some of the ones that are about his early life. But considering that even works within the accepted DWU canon don't agree with each other (he has a human mother vs. he was created from a loom?!), I think it would be okay to create a new character from his early life for the purposes of storytelling. Remember, this is new Doctor exists right now in his life timeline, we don't know where along the way he encountered "our" Doctor. Badwolff ☎  20:10, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, it's not possible. If you had actually watched the end of The Name of the Doctor, you would have seen 11 specifically say that the "new Doctor" is himself, although undeserving of the name "the Doctor". -- Bold  Clone  20:48, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, actually, I watched the entire episode but I'll admit to only seeing it once so far. I'll waiting to see the show transcript before squabbling about the exact dialogue that was said in the final scene.


 * But there is no need for you to be so condescending. I threw out an idea and there are a plentiful number of equally (or more so) far out theories on who this character is, right on this very thread. This forum is for speculation, after all, and I was speculating.


 * Of course, you could take it upon yourself to mock the suggested plot twists of everyone you disagree with but I really don't recommend it. It's an approach that is not very productive, it has the side effect of shutting down conversation and leaves a very unpleasant impression upon your fellow users. Have a good week. Badwolff ☎  19:29, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * I've seen the episode only once, and I remember the dialogue just fine. I assumed that you hadn't finished watching the episode, since the matter was spelled out precisely there by 11 ("He's me, but not the Doctor."). I'm not sqabbling about the exact dialogue; I'm actually correcting you regarding the exact dialogue.
 * You threw out an idea (after watching the episode) that actually contradicted what was said in the episode itself. Speculation is fine, of course, but far-out speculation ("Maybe this Doctor is the namesake of the Doctor") that disregards the established facts ("He's me...") isn't very helpful.
 * I was hardly mocking your plot twist, nor was it because I disagreed with it. Rather, you disagreed with the established facts presented in the episode, and I was correcting you by pointing back to what 11 said in the episode. -- Bold   Clone  20:00, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

One of the posts gave me an idea that I haven't seen considered before: what if John Hurt Doctor is the real 3rd Doctor? We never saw the 2nd Doctor regenerate into the 3rd Doctor. All we saw is the Time Lords doing something to the 2nd Doctor and then the 3rd Doctor falling out of the TARDIS doors. So John Hurt Doctor could be also between the 2nd Doctor and the 3rd Doctor. Maybe whatever John Hurt Doctor did is the real reason the 3rd Doctor was exiled on Earth. After all we know that the 2nd Doctor worked for Time Lords after his trial (season 6b) and they would have no real reason to force regeneration on him and exile him at that point. So maybe after or during that period he regenerates into John Hurt Doctor, does something terrible, the Time Lords catch him again and then follow through with forced regeneration (=execution) and exile him. John Pertwee Doctor and the ones who follow him were so ashamed that they/he tried to forget what he did, maybe even deleting knowledge about it from the Universe, making it his greatest secret, the secret that he took to his grave. --LadyRomana ☎  14:30, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I hadn't thought of that before. It seems reasonable, although I think the Time War also gives a plausible explanation for Hurt's Doctor. -- Bold  Clone  15:21, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with you and everyone about the Time War. I think it is the most likely theory. Also the most obvious theory. But I won't be surprised if Moffat will come up with something entirely different. --LadyRomana ☎  15:59, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's fair comment. Moffat is, after all, seriously addicted to red herrings.


 * On the "between 2 & 3" idea: That is another possible opening. It suffers, however, from the same problem as the "before 1" idea -- the absence, throughout the classic series, of signs of great guilt or shame. --89.240.243.203talk to me 21:02, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point; I take it that you support the "between 8 and 9" theory? -- Bold  Clone  21:12, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should be before 1 because the sixth doctor already said he reached the thirteen incarnation limit. Also maybe time lords in some regenerations look different (kind of like children). 11 said, "He's me, but not the Doctor," and,"He told the Doctor's biggest secret," implying that that was the Doctor before he chose the Doctor as his name and that he told his real name. So he had to be less than 8 years old, because that's when time lords enter the academy and choose their new name (nickname).-67.82.125.95 21:56:19 5/23/2013


 * This wouldn't work for the same reasons as listen before. Also, I very much doubt that the Doctor's name was a secret before he entered the Academy. Given the fact that the Doctor's name has been described as "written across the stars of the Medusa Cascade," it makes sense that the Unknown Doctor is from the time of the Last Great Time War (thus putting him either as the Eighth or as an alternative Ninth). Milar Kayne ☎  22:05, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Kayne. It can't be some pre-First Doctor incarnation because Hurt's character broke the promise of the Doctor, meaning he existed sometime after 1 originally took the name of the Doctor. Hurt probably isn't an incarnation we've seen before, so that most likely puts him between 8 and 9. -- Bold  Clone  22:11, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Bold Clone: I'd not say I support the "between 8 and 9" theory. What I would say is that that's the period in the Doctor's life that seems the most likely fit. However, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of some way of putting the "Hurt Doctor" into that period without inserting him between 8 & 9. We know very little about what happened in the Time War. We know it was full of horrors but the main thing we know is that it was a Time War. That opens so many possibilities for the manipulation of time by both sides that Moffat could use some kind of "timey-wimey" method to take the "Hurt Doctor" out of the linear sequence. I should say, though, that I'm far from sure that's what Moffat will do &, even if he does do that, I'd not claim to know how he'll do it. --89.240.243.203talk to me 23:35, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, me too; Moffet always seems to have an ace up his sleeve. I'm wondering if Hurt might be an alternate Ninth Doctor. He'd still appear in the Doctor's timeline, but yet maintain Eccleston as 9 (and Tennant as 10, and Smith as 11...), and is at least plausible considering that Hurt probably fought in the Time War. Thoughts? -- Bold  Clone  23:56, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Something of that kind is indeed what I have in mind. Moffat is keen on the tricks that can be played by manipulating time. One example that may (or may not) be relevant is Amy's question in Good Night: How can she remember two very different versions of her own life? Another example is Amy's reaction to having killed Kovarian in the collapsing timeline of The Wedding of River Song: When River tries to dismiss that action because it happened in an aborted timeline, Amy says it still bothers her -- she can remember doing it, so it's still part of her. I wouldn't expect exactly the same thing but some other variation on the theme is a distinct possibility. --89.240.243.203talk to me 00:40, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Let us also examine some of the facts that we do know for sure. Eccleston was asked to do the 50th show and declined. McGann hasn't made it public that he was asked, but did say his role in the special probably had a lot to do with Eccleston's response. There was intent to include the "9th", but not a necessity as we now know. Last fact before conjecture - John Hurt is, to put it blunt, old. This is why I think he will not be cast (as interesting as it would be) as a future doctor and carry the show himself. The fact that the TARIDS interior was the same suggests that Moffat will end the show with Smith. We know from season six that the Smith Doctor is not the 13th, because we saw him start to regenerate - this is why I feel meta-crisis doctor isn't a regen. That episode also confirmed that the Doctor can be killed before regen, allowing Smith to still be the last Doctor if the BBC thinks the show will tank if they replace Smith.

This is why I subscribe to the "missing" doctor theory. A mystery Doctor born from/in war and only existing in a time locked time war, sounds like a pretty big secret, especially if he committed war crimes. In fact....the only people who would have ever known about his existence....died. The Doctor was imprisoned for a duration of time during the war. Could maybe he have regenerated in jail and became the Doctor who stole the key to the Moment and used it? He may have been a brutal horrific one track minded warrior bent on escape and ending the war without giving anyone a choice in the matter, something that both 9, 10, and 11 all severely swore by.

I also think that the "you're the eleventh Doctor.." line by Clara is hugely significant. It confirms and yet completely brings into question what we all assumed was the Doctor's history. -- High Five City

'''Note to 108.35.12.252: If you want to make a contribution, please do it without deleting the contributions of others. You removed contributions by both me & Bold Clone, which is why I reverted your edit. It is an extreme breach of discussion-page etiquette to do delete what others have said. --89.240.243.203talk to me 00:51, May 24, 2013 (UTC)'''

'''Note to 89.240.243.203: Be fair. For one thing, that was probably an error on 108's part. Second, you deleted his contribution as well. So not only have you also breached discussion-page etiquette, you have also committed the same fault of which you accuse another. Milar Kayne ☎  00:58, May 24, 2013 (UTC)'''

Milar Kayne: If you'd kept out of the way, I'd not have hit an edit conflict when I tried to put the reverted edit back on the page. --89.240.243.203talk to me 01:04, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Bold Clone: Thanks for sorting out the mess. The 2nd time I tried to put 108's stuff back, I was racing to avoid the risk of another edit conflict. That leads to mistakes. --89.240.243.203talk to me 01:27, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

High Five City: Why would the BBC ever think "the show will tank if they replace Smith"? It didn't before they got him. Even if they wanted to stop making the show, they could easily do what they did before -- stop with the Doctor still alive. The only reason to try to kill the Doctor off is to try to prevent the show ever being revived again. They know reviving it worked once & made lots of money. Why set out to shut down that option?

"We know from season six that the Smith Doctor is not the 13th, because we saw him start to regenerate": We didn't see him start to regenerate. We saw the Teselecta fake the start of regeneration.

"The Doctor was imprisoned for a duration of time during the war." Where does that come from?

"He may have been a brutal horrific one track minded warrior bent on escape and ending the war without giving anyone a choice in the matter": Not the character played by John Hurt, then. That gives us two previously unknown incarnations to deal with.

"It confirms and yet completely brings into question what we all assumed was the Doctor's history.": Sorry, but it can't do both of those things. They're contradictory. --89.240.243.203talk to me 02:19, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

something that i think is worth noting during the conversation when hurt is revealed and hen he turns around...he never comes across to me like an evil character not even evil but he thinks he is doing good...rather he looks remorsefull and a rather tragic character(which is supported in dialogue really) but the look on his face is really sad and doesnt really suppport the theory of valeyard or anger like 9 after the time war.......its more like he had to do something that goes against his core belief his life long vow and he knew he was going to be hated and dispised for it but had no choice ...he is know to the doctor as almost like a traitor but put in the situation hurt knew he had no choice but to do what he did and face the cosequence ............he sound alot like the person that the doctor was sacred that he would become87.83.10.218talk to me 09:38, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

87, "...he never comes across to me like an evil character...": Exactly. What he did may have been wrong. It may be that he ought to have known at the time that it was wrong. But he at least thought he had no choice, even if he now realises there actually was another course of action he ought to have taken. He might have acted hastily & discovered too late that he didn't have the full facts, so that whatever he did wasn't necessary, after all. "Remorseful and ... tragic" is how I saw him, too, certainly not High Five City's "brutal horrific one track minded warrior" or anything remotely like it. (I was 89 earlier.) --2.96.31.103talk to me 11:19, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

In the new Strax Field Report he mentions that this new Doctor "has the look of a battle hardened warrior". Can be viewed here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYWghABqh3w. So more evidence that he is The Doctor from the Time War it would seem. [Unsigned but appears to be 86.14.252.122 11:55, May 24, 2013 (UTC)]

Thanks for the link but a reminder: Please remember to sign your contributions.

On the clip itself: It does seem to suggest the Time War but, because it's Strax speaking, the quote might just be the Sontaran equivalent of saying, "I like the look of him." Assuming the quote can, in fact, be taken at face value (sorry about that one!), it indicates a war -- as does this unknown Doctor's own line about "peace and sanity" -- but doesn't confirm that that war is the Time War.

I'd not expect it to confirm that. Moffat is going to hold back on giving us solid information until the Anniversary Special itself & we all know he is.

There'll probably be several more "teasers" of this kind over the next 6 months, to keep people interested in the Anniversary Special. I'm sure Moffat knows we will stay interested, anyway, but he can't (& shouldn't) rely only on "hard core" fans for his audience. --2.96.31.103talk to me 13:14, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Back to the discussion and a stop the "we will see when the anniversary comes. Sooo like written above this "hurt doctor" doesnt come in a evil evil way. He isnt evil in the usual common way. He broke a/the promise of a doctor. A doctor must help all species equally without an objection what they do after that. But the Doctor likes humans, and peaceful creatures in the galaxy. He doesnt help out the bad warrior races, which have no potential for coexistence with others. That is a contradiction of the solemn vow of a doctor. But he never refuses to fix or help. But against the Daleks and Cybermen he uses his wits and knowledge to destroy or seal them away. He punishs the bad ones and helps the good ones, which leads to the fact that the bad guys become insane("r") and worse. But the true (normal) nature of the doctor isnt to kill other creatures, it is to safe them, even if that means from themself. In the Last Great Time War it is different. The "Hurt Doctor" is sad because he couldnt complete his mission which was to stop or slow down the development of the daleks (original series). He couldnt even stop other races like the Cyberman from killing and adapting. But the worst of all is his own kind, the Time Lords, which didnt listened to him, and couldnt realise they cant win against the daleks with the Time War. After enduring all these the doctor find out about the daleks reality bomb and the time lords trying to rip the time vortex apart, this hits him the hardest, because in the end all would fight for nothing to remain in the end, all creation gone. And he sees that for all realities, universes, doctors, his actions now are the best to make. Betraying his vow of sharing wisedom and helping others. He uses the "moment" to end 2 races. The Doctor uses the greater good as am excuse. Time and races are his patients, but not daleks and time lords which have become insane to him for war and blood. He ended this conflict to safe the universe. (Rewritten) TheRealDoctor ☎  20:42, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Some really interesting ideas suggested (above). The only thing I'd go with 100% is that Moffat has something we can't predict up his sleeve. I mean, think about Clara...Moffat now places this character, who we first encounter last year, throughout the entire 50 year history of the show. That's chutzpah! It's now established that this latest Companion has, as her "echoes", significant encounters (at least on her side) with all of the previous Doctors, probably multiple times. Think of all of the many new stories that can be told now about Clara and the other 10 Doctors?


 * I think, similarly, John Hurt's The Doctor will NOT simply be another, previously unknown, regeneration. Moffat's going to rewrite history, again, and introduce some new twist that cause fans to completely reevaluate the show.


 * Since I'm not steeped in the full history of the show, I'd like to insert a practical consideration: John Hurt is both an older and established actor who continues to have ongoing acting projects. I doubt he is making a Series-long commitment to the program. Whoever his Doctor is, I expect his character to appear in 1 or 2 episodes, tops, although they might end up being the first and last episodes of Series 8. Of course, no detailed information like that has been released and, I'm guessing, would be not be allowed, even on The Howling. Badwolff ☎  21:34, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

The Doctor is typicallly thought of as a hero...savior of of worlds...I think hurt's dcotor will be a villain. I think he will change our perception of the doctor...when we learn his story we'll exclaim, "The DOCTOR whould NEVER do that!" and having realized that the doctor is not only capable of great evil, but also a perpetrator of great evil, our perception of him will be forever changed. Whosethebestwho ☎  04:59, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

@Badwolff: Well, Moffat has already given us fans a new twist that has caused us to completely reevaluate the show: John Hurt. And considering that "John Hurt is both an older and established actor who continues to have ongoing acting projects," it actually makes sense to me for Hurt to be another, previously unknown incarnation. This way, he only has to appear in a single multi-Doctor story as a past Doctor, while still carrying the full impact of his secret "plot twist" identity (some sort of "lost" Doctor or what not). Sorta like maximum effect with minimal effort. Make any sense? -- Bold  Clone  05:16, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if it makes sense to Badwolff but it does to me. --89.242.70.240talk to me 09:55, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

Let's not forget here that we're dealing with Mr. Steven Moffat, the King of Universal Restarts, Reboots, and Rewrites. I say it's a distinct possibility that by the end of the 50th, John Hurt's Doctor will have been removed from having ever existed. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 21:08, May 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * And possibly some amount of the events of Trenzalore. The broken TARDIS window seems to say that Trenzalore for the Doctor is quite close at hand, even though he should still have 1-2 entire lives left (unless The Curse of Fatal Death happens; "Oh, drat, I've died again! I liked that body. Oh, drat, I've died again!"). I say that he will do something that undoes his death on Trenzalore (which is potentially where the battle the GI references takes place), and retcons the entire Clara arc, in the process undoing Asylum of the Daleks, so the Daleks will once again remember him.
 * Either that, or through the actions of Strax's automatic laser monkeys (being controlled by the Celestial Toymaker), the Doctor falls into a world filled with magical talking ponies. (Hey, given what's happened so far in Doctor Who, I dare you to try and say that that's not possible, though unlikely.) (And yes, I'm bored right now.) —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 00:10, May 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * There's a pretty solid reason for undoing the death on Trenzalore. If it's left in place, it'll be a nuisance to the writers of future episodes (including Moffat himself), because it'll undermine any apparent threat to the Doctor's life that doesn't involve a battle at Trenzalore. --89.242.73.110talk to me 00:58, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

You're right, this is Steven Moffat we are talking about. In his first series finale, he rebooted the universe! He "killed" The Doctor. He gave him a wife. I wouldn't put anything past him. I'm just arguing that whatever he has in mind for John Hurt's character, it will NOT be the most obvious explanation. He loves screwing with fans' expectations and coming up with unanticipated twists. I just think the "he is an unknown incarnation of The Doctor" is the first explanation that comes to mind and, for that reason, I don't think it will be Moffat's choice. Given what he has come up with in the past, whoever Hurt's Doctor is will be outside the box of normal expectations.

The other day, I was looking at discussion about River Song and Clara from when they first appeared on Doctor Who and almost all of the suggestions for who they really were were completely off-the-mark. Most often, fans thought they were a reincarnation of characters from the Classic series but in a different form, but, you know, they weren't. Moffat created something brand new. I see the same sort of suggestion for Hurt's Doctor and I'm going with Moffat pulling a rabbit out of the hat and going for something that has never been done. I think, push to choose, he opts more for originality than continuity. Badwolff ☎  19:59, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

Seeing that I spent quite a while saying, in various places, "I don't think Clara is, I think she's something new," I have to agree with you. I can't, of course, claim to have figured out what new thing Clara was, either.

The closest anyone got to being right about Clara was to draw a parallel with Scaroth from City of Death, who was splintered through time by an explosion. I think it was Saghan who first suggested the idea of Clara being similarly splintered & pointed out the differences from Scaroth, including the likelihood that the cause would be different. Considering that it's Moffat we're dealing with & that Saghan suggested the idea before The Snowmen had aired, that's good going.

Whatever the explanation of the "Hurt Doctor" eventually turns out to be, I'm sure it'll be something non-obvious. The great problem with trying to work out what Moffat's up to is that he's the one who decides what information we have to work with! He can make sure that we're missing a few vital facts. (Well, he can unless BBC America messes up again.) --89.240.242.61talk to me 22:17, May 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, it was too much for me to claim that no one figured out those two characters. I can only refer to the characters' talk pages I read and a few Howling threads that popped up when I was searching for clues. It wouldn't be a surprise to me that, as you say, someone came to a resolution that is similar to what Moffat came up with.


 * It's just I was struck by how similar the guesses were for all characters. I suppose that when having limited information, the most determined fans start looking back at the Classic series for characters who bare the most slimmest resemblance to the new ones because the alternative--that Moffat comes up with something truly original--makes guessing irrelevant because we can't read his mind and know what he is going to come up with.


 * So, people tend to go with what they know--which is former characters and variations of them--and try to find a plausible reason why they would be revived. Badwolff ☎  23:09, May 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * "fans start looking back at the Classic series ... Moffat comes up with something truly original": That could be why he gets paid to do it & we don't! :) --89.240.242.61talk to me 00:08, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

Greetings all! This is my first attempt at joining a wiki discussion. Please forgive any transgressions I might make (but I am open to friendly suggestions). I do have a few questions and observations after watching the final show listed as follows. 1. Why did not the Smith Doctor enter the ground where Clara was when she was trying to get to him (“C’mon Clara, 1 more step”)? He purposely did not go forward there. Also, neither did the Hurt Doctor (assuming he was there when Smith appeared to help Clara…they appeared together (but there is no evidence they did). 2. If the Hurt Doctor appeared at the same time as the Smith Doctor, why did the Hurt Doctor not answer when Clara was calling out to the Doctor? It would be weird to have both say “Here Clara, come this way” probably. 3. Old Man.  Outside the tomb, the GI is talking about the death and destruction caused by the Doctor and states (paraphrase) “Eventually it was too much for the old man”.  I am betting that “old man” refers to the Hurt Doctor and not the Smith Doctor.  That’s like “and it is discovered” is referring to the tomb and not the secret…word tricks. 4. Recitation of Valeyard.  I did not see the use of the name “Valeyard” as calling the Hurt Doctor specifically the Valeyard since it was mentioned with Storm and Beast.  Although Storm has been used to refer to the Doctor, I do not believe that Beast has been. I believe that these names are being recited as possible red herring from SM. 5. SM wants us to work hard for this one. I really believe that with the way that SM works, the answer is not going to be a straightforward as “Valeyard”, Doctor 8.5”, “Meta-Crisis 2” et. al. I think this is going to be a real mindscrew. 6. Way out there. GI is from the Pre-Universe. Could the Hurt Doctor be also from the Pre-Universe? Thank you!Boss MD ☎  01:13, May 29, 2013 (UTC)Boss MD


 * I disagree with you there; I believe that the answer really could be as straightforward as Hurt being "Doctor 8.5". However, the explanation will be complicated. Just look at River Song: in Season 5, Amy asked her point-blank, "Are you the Doctor's wife?" River asked in response, "With the Doctor, could anything be that simple?" Amy's verdict was "Yes." In Season 6, River was revealed to be the Doctor's wife, but the explanation behind that was considerably more complex. So yes, Hurt's identity could be as simple as "Doctor 8.5" or "the real Ninth Doctor," but the explanation will likely be timey-wimey. -- Bold  Clone  03:38, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

The Fields of Trenzalore, at the Fall of the Eleventh, a question will be asked, the oldest question in the universe, that must never be answered. Doctor who? Well, the question was asked, at Trenzalore, at the Doctor's Tomb, which presumably, was the Fall of the Eleventh. Any chance John Hurt is the future version of Matt Smith? [Unsigned but appears to be 203.26.177.2 06:20, May 30, 2013 (UTC)]

From what we know so far -- in particular, from the fact that what we know is very little indeed -- there must be a chance of that. As pointed out a few times, Eleven (played by Smith) seemed to be talking of the "Hurt Doctor" as being from his past. However, we cannot rule out the possibility that it's only his knowledge of the "Hurt Doctor" that's from the past & that the "Hurt Doctor" himself is from the future. --89.242.72.152talk to me 09:15, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

A bit late to the party here but I'd like to contribute my own theory: The Great Intelligence had entered The Doctor's time-stream in order to mess up everything he had ever done; and was succeeding in doing so until Clara followed suit. As a result she sees his time-stream, and makes reference to all of the past incarnations that we know of; yet she doesn't recognize the Hurt Doctor who was a part of that very time-stream. What if the Hurt Doctor is a period in his time-stream Clara failed to witness, and thus didn't save him from the Great Intelligence's negative influence on that section of his history? 67.248.191.73talk to me 06:41, June 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's a possibility. The questions it raises are, of course, several: 1. Why didn't Clara see the "Hurt Doctor" earlier? (A relatively minor question -- probably.) 2. What damage did the GI do? (More important.) 3. What are Clara & the Doctor going to do about it? (The big one, really.) 4. What will be the eventual outcome? (Also pretty important.) That situation would allow Moffat plenty of scope for further twists & paradoxes, which is much in its favour. (I was 89 earlier.) --2.96.24.42talk to me 10:48, June 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Tricky to answer, considering what we know about the time-stream and how it works. For #1, my guess would be that it has something to do with the idea that the "Hurt Doctor" wasn't calling himself "The Doctor" during that time. 67.248.191.73talk to me 22:27, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Something that I was thinking about, The Doctor is supposed to be a reborn Time-Lord originally known as The Other, who apparently founded the Time-Lord race along with Rassilon and Omega. While I don't know much about the process, having learned about it from this wiki, I recall it involving the Loom, which was used to create new Time-Lords after they became sterile. This 'Other' guy became The Doctor after jumping into the Loom. (Im probably missing some details here, but there isn't huge amount of info on this matter.) It could be possible that this New Doctor that we have seen is the Other, which may provide an explanation as to how he is the same entity as the Doctor as we know him, and not technically the Doctor. Again, this is some rather far out speculation, so please feel free to provide as much evidence to the contrary as possible. One other thing I should add, it might make sense that there is only one incarnation of The Other, as it didn't seem like Rassilon or Omega were able to regenerate. This is slightly supported by some evidence that has been provided on the early Time-Lord society in the show. Ark of Death ☎

The Other, Time Lord sterility, looms &c come from novels & haven't (so far) been mentioned on TV at all. Also, in The Five Doctors, Rassilon was described as having achieved immortality via "perpetual bodily regeneration". Omega, in The Three Doctors & Arc of Infinity, had lost his physical body entirely & resorted to constructing a new one, using the Doctor's biodata.

There's nothing to say that Moffat can't or won't use ideas from novels, of course. He's done it before. The first half-dozen episodes of Series 6 had a companion (Amy) animating an artificial copy of herself while her real body was kept dormant. That bears a suspicious resemblance to what happened to Ace in the 1993 novel, Shadowmind, but with several changes: Ace knew what was going on, Amy didn't; with Ace, it was done to assist the Doctor but, with Amy, the purpose was hostile to him; & so on. Moffat has also adapted (pretty heavily) one of his own short stories "What I Did on My Christmas Holidays by Sally Sparrow" into a TV episode (Blink) & he had Gareth Roberts adapt a comic strip into a TV episode (The Lodger).

The notion that he might use ideas from other media is perfectly sound, though he could make drastic changes to them in the process of adapting them to his own purposes. (I'm back to being 89 again.) --89.241.74.205talk to me 21:05, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

@BoldClone...quite right. The souffle is the recipe! The explanation will be the point rather than sequence.Boss MD ☎  02:11, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Boss MD: Not just the explanation -- the explanation & the consequences. The position in the sequence will really matter only to the extent that it affects those things. --89.241.74.205talk to me 02:50, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I just watched "Name..." on Saturday night, and it seemed to, if not confirm, be compatible with suspicions I had from near the beginning of "Nightmare in Silver." I think John Hurt's character is the person for whom Porridge/The Emperor said he felt sorry. That is, the person who had to push the button to end the Cyber war against humanity, at a great cost. Hurt's dialogue, that he had no choice, did it for peace, etc., matches Porridge's description of the events, and the futility and horrible waste, as the Cybermen just kept adapting. Also just as Porridge has ended his statement about the man he feels sorry for, the Doctor walks into the scene.

This sort of behavior might be contrasted to that of the ninth Doctor at the "Parting..." where he has jerry rigged a device to stop the Daleks, only he wont use it because it will also kill millions on Earth.

The producers would not have gone so far into this Cyber war and detailed its disasterous results unless it had some ongoing significance. Hurt may have something to do with the Time War, but sealing the war with Galifrey with a Time Lock would not be on the same scale as this. The dedication to destroying the planet in "Nightmare..." may show how serious those people take the resolution of the war, as much as their fear of the Cybermen.

One other detail to consider: River Song, the time travelling archeologist, might well know a bit of the Doctor's future history beyond their relationship. If that is the case, what all might she do to try to save the Doctor, and how might that conflict with the Tardis's desire to not always take the Doctor where he wants to go, but where he needs to go? River has some connection to Clara, and Clara's role is to save the Doctor. Is Hurt part of the Doctor's timestream that River thinks she can "fix"? And is the only way Clara can save Hurt is to survive the spintering and help him as herself?

When River tells Amy not to worry about how she treated Madame Kovarian when Time stopped moving, because it was in a timeline that no longer exists, Amy says that it doesn't matter. She did it. So even if the Doctor, River, Clara (& Tennant & Piper) can save Hurt, he still will have done whatever he did, and it will affect the Doctor just the same. Phil Stone ☎  15:04, June 3, 2013 (UTC)