Howling:Pre-Time War Daleks erased from history? Maybe not...

Remember that bit in Dalek where the lone War-era Dalek says that it cannot detect any others of its kind anywhere in the universe in the year 2012 AD? Many people have long pointed to this as an indication that the Time War somehow removed all Daleks from all moments in time. But now I'm not so sure that is the case. The graphic novel The Only Good Dalek, by Justin Richards, set after the Time War, has characters specifically refer to events of the classic series story The Daleks' Masterplan, even mentioning Sara Kingdom and Bret Vyon as having been enemies of the Daleks. So it would appear that some classic series adventures involving the Daleks are still part of history. 194.168.208.42 11:26, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

It' all still part of history. That part of history just occured before the Time War. The Dalek in Dalek was from after the Time War, when the Daleks had all been exterminated. Episodes like The Dalek Invasion of Earth still happenned, because the Daleks and Time Lords in that episode were from before the Time War. The Dalek, who was checking up on his race after they were all destroyed in the war, naturally couldn't find any information on them. Besides, did the Daleks even exist yet in the 21st century? Didn't most modern day and historical Dalek episodes feature time travelling Daleks?Icecreamdif talk to me 16:47, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the Daleks in The Dalek Invasion of Earth weren't time travellers, and Genesis of the Daleks occurs around five hundred years prior to the era of The Dead Planet, which is widely considered to take place before Dalek Invasion of Earth. So I'd say there were definitely Daleks on Skaro at least a couple hundred years before the 20th century. 82.2.136.93 11:02, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

All right, that makes sense. I've gotten a head ache every time I've tried to work out the chronology of events in Doctor Who. Especially with how difficult it is to fit Genesis of the Daleks and The Daleks together. Anyway, the rest of my point still stands. Nobody was erased from history during the timewar. The Daleks were physically destroyed "burned" at the end of the Time War, and they all died. Dalek history before the Time War was unaffected, however, and the Daleks still did plenty of exterminating before the Time War. After they were destroyed, they were exctinct for a bit, and the Doctor wasn't about to purposefully cross his own timeline and encounter Daleks from before the Time War. That would just be taking the stupid risk of alterring history and allowing the Daleks to win the war.Icecreamdif talk to me 18:06, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Well all those Dalek stories in the classic series took place in a timeline where Gallifrey had not been destroyed in the past (relative to our present). We know from newer stories such as School Reunion and The Sontaran Stratagem that Gallifrey's been gone for a good while now. So those classic stories won't occur in the future, because that particular timeline is no longer valid, due to the massive change in history. 82.2.136.93talk to me 12:19, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's as simple as that. The French Revolution still happened, even though the Doctor visited it "in a timeline where Gallifrey had not been destroyed". Any changes to history caused by the destruction of Gallifrey left that part of our history intact. The same is true of many, many other incidents -- the Great Fire of Rome, the Great Fire of London, the extinction of the dinosaurs, the travels of Marco Polo, the Trojan War, the Second World War, etc., etc. Earth's past as seen from the early 21st century hasn't changed hugely. Why would the same not be true of Earth's past as seen from (say) the late 51st century or the mid-305th century? And why would it be only Earth's past that stayed intact? The only thing special about Earth in the early 21st century is that that's where we are seeing things from. It's a literally egocentric view. As far as I can tell, the effect of the time lock is that, wherever in history the Doctor now goes, the destruction of Gallifrey will appear to be in the past -- because it's in his past and is locked there. We cannot assume that "those classic stories won't occur in the future" any more than we can rely on classic stories not having occurred in the past. --89.240.243.180talk to me 15:08, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

A few simple points to ponder: --222.166.181.203talk to me 16:02, February 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Sane Daleks do obey the rules of time as shown in Water of Mars due to the large percussion of time paradox.
 * 2) Time-travellers generally do not like to cross into their own timelines.
 * 3) Dalek's sense of individual and individuality is less than ours, and we have often seen individual Daleks sacrificing themselves for the race as if it were the normal.
 * 4) Time War is timelocked, and from what we have seen, this means its existence is timelocked, as in it must happen in the exact time and space the moment it was timelocked; nobody and nothing can naturally change or interfere its existence.
 * 5) An individual after the War meeting individuals before the occurence of the War would directly influence the War. The time/place/cause of the Time War would be subject to changes if any post-War information made any sort of contact with individuals before the War. Not only does information include actual information, but things like biological data/state, post-War objects' states, information stored/implied in/by a time machine, etc.

Most of those points are fine. Number 4 has an assumption about how the time lock works, however, and that assumption is questionable: "it must happen in the exact time and space the moment it was timelocked". The problem might simply be phrasing, of course, but that reads as if the entire war now occupies a single point in space at a single instant of time. There's nothing in the show to support that. We know the entire war, whatever its extent in space and time, is inaccessible. In the words of the old joke, "You can't get there from here." There are exceptions. Dalek Caan managed to intrude by accident. The Time Lords, using the Master, nearly managed to break out intentionally. Apart from these, as far as access is concerned, it might as well not be in space or time at all. On the other hand, we have seen examples of people remembering it or having information about it, so it's not been erased, just sealed off. Number 5 is also slightly doubtful, since the Doctor and the TARDIS managed to collide with their pre-war selves in Time Crash. Contact isn't totally impossible but, again, the only instance we know of depended on a freakish accident. As a summary of the hazards of contact, however, number 5 is pretty good. --2.101.49.118talk to me 19:05, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the Time Lords and the Daleks were active in the future, so the War must have extended beyond our time. But other races in the universe now not only know about the War, they also know that it's over, that the Time Lords are (mostly) dead, and that the Doctor is the last of them. Information like this would definitely effect any developments of the War in the future. 82.2.136.93talk to me 19:46, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Incidentally, the date of Gallifrey's destruction must have occured in the past, relative to us living now, as people indigenous to this time zone are aware of it, as seen in School Reunion, The Sontaran Stratagem, et al. If War-era Gallifrey is in Earth's future, how could individuals living now know how it ended? Furthermore, this would also mean that as of now, somewhere out in space there are pre-War Time Lords living on Gallifrey, and pre-War Daleks on Skaro, which is not how it's been presented on the show. 82.2.136.93talk to me 19:57, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

False logic. It was a Time War. The combatants and others who were aware of it had and some still have time travel. It could be known by individuals living at any time. The idea of "pre-War Time Lords living on Gallifrey..." etc., "as of now" doesn't conflict with the show -- provided they're inaccessible because of the time lock. Gallifrey's dating relative to our own has never been clear. Sometimes it has seemed to be very far in our past. Other times, it has seemed to be very far in our future. In Trial of a Time Lord, for example, events a couple of billion years in our future have been presented as being in Gallifrey's past. Time travel allowed the Time Lords to wander about all over the continuum, so it almost certainly doesn't matter what the relative dating is/was and we're not likely to be able to work it out. --2.101.49.118talk to me 20:18, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

But the very fact of people knowing the ultimate outcome of a war before its ending in linear time would potentially alter said outcome.And I doubt that many civilisations in the contemporary universe possess adequate time travel. 82.2.136.93talk to me 20:37, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Have you listened to the Doctor's explanation of time in Blink -- the sentence Sally Sparrow said had got away from him? If you try to think about this in terms of linear time, you're not going to get anywhere. If you try to think about this in terms of "a big ball of timey-wimey ... stuff", you might get somewhere -- although where you get to might be a home for the terminally bewildered! --2.101.49.118talk to me 21:34, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The thing is, in order for the Time War to be considered over now, both Daleks and Time Lords would have to be dead now. If there are still pre-War Daleks and Time Lords around in the present, then the War cannot be said to be over, because in linear terms, it hasn't started yet. As advanced as races such as the Krillitanes and Sontarans are, I highly doubt they'd be able to sense the extinction of a whole species in their own future. And I can't see either of them as having travelled back in time from an era after Gallifrey's destruction (Then again, the uniforms and technology of the Sontarans in The Sontaran Stratagem do appear to be more advanced than in The Sontaran Experiment, which takes place over ten thousand years in the future....). 82.2.136.93talk to me 22:05, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

In linear terms, how do you represent a sphere? The answer is, you don't. Linear is one dimensional; a sphere is three dimensional. You can't even hint at a sphere if you confine yourself to a single dimension. You can make an attempt at the representation if you use two dimensions, by using shading, etc. -- but only if you and those you're representing it to are already used to perceiving three-dimensional objects. It's only that experience of three-dimensional objects that allows shading to be interpreted as indicating a third dimension. If you're going to insist on trying to think of time in the "Whoniverse" as linear, you're stuffed. From the various hints that have been dropped over the last 48 years or so, time in the "Whoniverse" has to be at least two-dimensional and is almost certainly three-dimensional. In Battlefield, when the (7th) Doctor is talking to Ace about the signal they're receiving, he says it's going backwards and forwards and sideways in time. By "sideways in time" he tells her he means across parallel universes. That requires at least two dimensions of time. The events of the revived series seem to require (and some of the events in the classic series at least hinted at) a third dimension of time. Linear terms simply won't do. --2.101.49.118talk to me 22:58, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Why would the present possibly matter in any of this. During the new series, the Doctor hasn't just been in the present. He's been all over time, from Pompeii to the end of the earth to the end of the universe, and no matter where he is he is always the last Time Lord in the universe. In any of these times, the pre-war Time Lords and Daleks may still be around, but he can't interact with them because that goes against pretty much every law of time. In the end, it doesn't matter when Gallifrey was destroyed, because it's a time war, fought by time travellers across all of time and space.Icecreamdif talk to me 04:27, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the present does matter. As I said earlier: "The only thing special about Earth in the early 21st century is that that's where we are seeing things from. It's a literally egocentric view." What matters is that information from after the Time War can't get into the Time War to change it. That's what the time lock does. The assumption being made by 82 is that our history must have changed because, if it hadn't, information from after the Time War could get into the Time War to change it. 82 knows that our past history hasn't changed -- the French Revolution visited by the (1st) Doctor still happened -- so his/her assertions of historical change are confined to our future history. That, however, simply reflects the fact that here-and-now is where 82 is seeing things from. To me, if our past history can remain unchanged without breaking the time lock, our future history could also remain unchanged without breaking the time lock. There isn't some kind of dividing line drawn at the here-and-now. The dividing line is the time lock and it matters not a hoot where or when you start from -- the Jagaroth spaceship on Earth 400,000,000 years before now (City of Death) or Paris in late July 1794 (The Reign of Terror) or Ravolox, a.k.a. Earth, in somewhere round about 2,000,000,000 years from now (Trial of a Time Lord: The Mysterious Planet) -- you still can't get information from after the Time War into the Time War. --89.240.247.98talk to me 06:08, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I'm not saying our future history must stay the same as portrayed in the classic series, only that it could stay the same. --89.240.247.98talk to me 06:15, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

There's certainly something wrong with the idea that the Time War is fought by time travellers across all of time and space logically and canon-wise. The Time Lady in the End of Time specifically mentioned that they were at the edge of the war and that there was a centre, so the War is certainly confined to a period of time and a fixed section of space. The section of time and space may be a very large section but it mustn't extend to all of time and space as that would imply that the entire Universe and all of history must be timelocked.--222.166.181.129talk to me 06:27, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

The Partisan ("the Time Lady in the End of Time") did say that and, of course, you're right about the war not extending to all of time and space because that would put everything inside the time lock -- in which case, there might as well not be a time lock. (Idle thought: Maybe that's where the "missing" 90% of the mass/energy of the universe is -- inside the time lock!) --89.240.247.98talk to me 07:39, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

I have an idea Dalek history had already changed before the Time War "heated up", so to speak. In the '96 TV Movie, the 7th Doctor is dispatched to Skaro to collect the Master's remains. But in Remembrance of the Daleks, Skaro was destroyed, right? So what's it doing here? Perhaps the Daleks, following the events of Remembrance, went back in time and conquered their home planet in its past, thereby negating its destruction later on in linear time? The one problem with that scenario being that such an act might very well wipe the post-Remembrance Daleks out of existence. Maybe a paradox machine was used? 82.2.136.93talk to me 11:18, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

"It was a Time War...It could be known by inidividuals in any time..." Well then why didn't the Time Lords ever pick up on this when they were around? Because when they were around, the War hadn't happened in any time zone. After the War happened, history changed; the two versions of history, pre-War and post-War, were incompatible with one another. It's like Genesis of the Daleks: Before that story, the Doctor was never present at the Dalek's creation and Dalek history occured how it was presented in all previous stories. But after the Doctor went back in time and interfered with their creation, as far as the rest of the universe was concerned (with the exception of the Time Lords), that was how it had always been, and the rest of Dalek history from that point onwards would have changed to fit their new beginnings. 194.168.208.42talk to me 13:07, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

82, "in Remembrance of the Daleks, Skaro was destroyed": Apparently. However, it was never clear when in its timestream the destruction happened. It was very strongly implied that the Hand of Omega travelled in time as well as space on its way to (and therefore back from) Skaro's sun. We know it was sent from Earth in 1963 but we've no idea when it arrived at Skaro's sun. There might be a paradox or a change in history but there needn't necessarily be. We don't know enough to be sure.

194, "why didn't the Time Lords ever pick up on this when they were around": That's linear thinking again. Before the Time War, nobody in any time could have had the information for the Time Lords to pick up on; after the Time War, "it could be known by inidividuals in any time". The problem is that the "before" and "after" in that sentence don't mean "before" and "after" in linear time. In linear time, the French Revolution happened after the destruction of Pompeii. There is another dimension of time in which the Doctor visited the French Revolution before the destruction of Pompeii. There have been other discussions of related topics on this site (some but not all now archived) where it's been fairly firmly concluded -- on what I think are good grounds -- that the thing only works if time is multi-dimensional. Dealing with the time lock, etc. is possible with two dimensions of time but the Doctor's comment (cited above) in Battlefield about "sideways in time" doesn't fit the requirements of the additional dimension needed to make the time lock work, so it indicates a third dimension of time. All this has been discussed in other topics. --89.241.67.45talk to me 15:54, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

My edit conflicted with 89's edit, so this was originally a response to 194's comment. It's not quite like that though, because people are still aware that the Time Lords used to exist. To some the Time Lords are no more than legends, but plenty of people just remember that the Time Lords used to be around. Jo, for example, didn't even know that the Time Lords died out, and presumably episodes like The Three Doctors and The Mutants still happenned for her. Therefore, now that the Time War has ended, it seems like no matter where in time and space you go, the Time Lords used to be around, but have been gone for some time. Do we actually know that Dalek history was changed in between Rememberance of the Daleks and the TV Movie. Isn't it possible that the Daleks either found a new homeworld and named it Skaro (similar to New Earth), or the TV Movie just took place at an earlier point in Dalek history before the Hand of Omega blew up Skaro? When the Time Lord woman on the council said that they were on the farthest edge of the war, I always assumed that she meant the farthest edge in time rather than space, and referring to Gallifrey's own personal timeline. Its the same as how the Doctor was travelling for 200 years last season, even though he didn't end up in the 23rd century. Gallifrey and the Time Lords have their own chronology within this war that expands across time, and the oracle predicted that Eight was going to destroy Gallifrey the next day, putting them at the edge of the war.Icecreamdif talk to me 15:58, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

I've always known that Skaro wasn't destroyed in 1963 in Remembrance, only that 1963 is the time the Hand of Omega was launched from, and it travelled into whatever future time those Daleks in that story came from. So at the end of the story, Skaro still exists relative to Earth in the 20th century; it's not actually destroyed until centuries, perhaps millennia, later. I don't think this scenario applies to Gallifrey and the Time Lords though. 82.2.136.93talk to me 21:17, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

If you've "always known that Skaro wasn't destroyed in 1963 in Remembrance," why were you citing that as evidence of a change in history? You were the one who assumed (on no discernable grounds) that it did. Read your own contribution of 11:18, February 13, 2012 (UTC). The situation with Gallifrey and the Time Lords is totally different but it's different for reasons that have nothing to do with the dates. The destruction of Gallifrey is time locked. No matter when its destruction happened, the Doctor can't go to Gallifrey before its destruction because of the time lock. Even if the destruction happened far in our future, the Doctor couldn't go there because of the time lock. It does not matter when, relative to contemporary Earth, the destruction happened and it never has mattered. The Doctor can travel in time. Simple chronology wouldn't stop him. Pompeii was destroyed long before our time but he could visit it. Pompeii isn't time locked. Gallifrey is. That is the difference, not the date. The date is totally irrelevant. --2.96.31.224talk to me 23:12, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

It may not be the time lock that is preventing him from visiting pre-war Gallifrey. Without the show having given us a real explanation, it is possible that the time lock prevents the Doctor from going to Gallifrey during the war, but it is just the regular laws of time that prevent him from going to pre-war Gallifrey. The Doctor always seemed to visit Gallifrey in chronological order, as opposed to most other planets (especially Earth) that he visited more than once. It seems likely that there was some system set up long before the Time War that would, for example, stop the Doctor from visiting the time of Rassilon, or stop the Fourth Doctor from attending the Second's trial. Icecreamdif talk to me 00:32, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

True. Gallifrey has always been a special case -- which is none too surprising, as it's the planet of the Time Lords. However, it quite definitely is the time lock that stops anything getting into or out of the Time War and it's that that we're really discussing. It's also pretty clear that the dates of the Time War -- which are unknown -- are not what prevents things getting in and out. 82 shows worrying signs of having failed to grasp that Doctor Who is a show about a time traveller and that time travel has a drastic effect on the rules of cause and effect. It's fine to say that, in our world, someone in 1527 couldn't know about the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. It's nonsense in the "Whoniverse", though. In the "Whoniverse", you simply can't rely on the calendar to prevent information getting around. If you take a look back at 82's contributions, they're full of "this must happen before that" assumptions that are explicitly stated to rely on linear time. With time travel as a factor, that just doesn't work. --89.240.242.81talk to me 01:08, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, when you think about it, it is possible that the planet Gallifrey still exists somewhere in the universe NOW, but the date of its destruction is far in the future, and also that it's quite possible for other people to already know about it. Remembrance of the Daleks is proof of this: People living on Earth in 1963 are perfectly aware of an entire planet blowing up, and a catastrophic blow being dealt to Dalek civilisation, centuries in their future. This does not invalidate earlier stories such as Resurrection of the Daleks and Revelation of the Daleks, both which took place over a thousand years later and involved humans from Earth fighting the Daleks. 194.168.208.42talk to me 11:16, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Time travel's like that. That's why people like the Doctor and River have to be so careful about "spoilers". As you say, in terms of linear chronology, Gallifrey could still exist. It's just that post-Time-War time travellers can't interact with it. People could even be going to and coming from Gallifrey at the present but all that traffic would fall under the category of "something that was already there" (in the Doctor's words to Wilf and the Vinvocci in The End of Time) when the time lock was put in place. Again, post-Time-War time travellers can't interact with that traffic. Of course, there is one way this might be relevant to the Doctor: it might provide the Time Lords with the means to make another last-ditch attempt to break out. Within the time lock, they're running out of time. But they've the whole of time and space outside the time lock to try to break out into -- the Time Lords may be in a hurry but the programme-makers don't need to be. --89.241.75.202talk to me 12:28, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

You're still making the same basic assumptions about time. The Time Lords are not running out of time in the time lock. According to the Doctor's linear time, they already ran out, and according to the way time travel works, they are running out out of time, still have plenty of time left, and haven't even started the war yet. It all just depends on what point in Gallifreyan history you're looking at. The End of Time was a weird case in that the Doctor was interacting with Time Lords and Gallifrey from what was, relative to him, the past. Normally he interacts with the Time Lords in a chronological order but this time, thanks to the Time Lords' desperation, he interacted with them out of order. It would be the equivalent of the Eleventh Doctor encountering the Racnoss from the center of the Earth, trying to escape before the Tenth Doctor flooded them. Anyway, all Time Lords who are currently experiencing the war are in the time lock. The only ones who aren't are those for whom the Time War hasn't started yet (the classic series time lords) and those for whom the war has already ended (The Ninth Doctor on, the Jacobi Master on, all the Daleks from the new series, etc.)Icecreamdif talk to me 12:35, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

What I meant was that, in Gallifrey's timestream, Rassilon and company spent a chunk of the last day of the Time War making their attempt to break out, as shown in The End of Time. That attempt failed and they were dumped back into the time lock. I ought, I suppose, to have said, "running out of time, from their own point of view," or something like that. We don't know how long, in that timestream, it was between the failure of the attempt and the Doctor's use of the moment. All we know is that they have less time available (in which to make another attempt) than they did when we first saw them in The End of Time. However, you're right enough that that doesn't necessarily constrain what could be done. Another group of Time Lords, acting independently of Rassilon, could have a go from an earlier point in Gallifrey's timestream and aim that attempt well-nigh anywhere or anywhen. Rassilon and company could violate the Laws of Time by sending a last-second message to their earlier selves, to allow them to make a less hasty attempt. (As we saw him in The End of Time, Rassilon isn't likely to worry much about the Laws of Time, morality, or indeed any constraint at all, except what he can actually do or not do.) There are surely plenty of further possibilities, some of which I could dream up, if I worked at it, and some that I'd never manage to think of for myself but others could. --89.241.64.8talk to me 17:47, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't that woman on the council say that the oracle said that it was the last day of the War? That suggests that they really didn't have much time to try something else. The whole thing seemed to be a final, desperate, last minute plan on Rassilon's part. You are right, however, that there are about a million other possible ways that the Time Lords can come back somehow. I wouldn't be surprised if they at least came up with some way for the Doctor to meet pre-Time War Time Lords for the anniversary next year, and I'm sure that somebody will want to do another story about the Time Lords and Gallifrey at some point.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:35, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

It was the (male) Chancellor who said the prophecies all agreed it was the last day of the Time War and it was definitely a desperate, last minute plan on Rassilon's part -- but final? When someone's as desperate as Rassilon, that's not a safe bet. After all, Rassilon didn't get where he was by being easy to dispose of. The Visionary's prophecies spoke of two surviving "children of Gallifrey" (the Doctor and the Master, as Rassilon said). They tried using the Master and nearly succeeded. It would be no surprise to me if Rassilon or (if the Master really did incapacitate him) one of his pals had a go at using the Doctor himself as a way out. Apart from the internal logic of the thing, that's the kind of idea that's liable to appeal to writers. All I'd ask is that, if they do it, they do it well. I can forgive a poor story based on a poor idea. What really bugs me is a poor story based on a good idea. It seems such a waste! --2.96.26.208talk to me 22:34, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Rassilon probably didn't have a backup plan. He didn't even have the plan that he used in The End of Time until halfway through the episode. He probably thought that he would have more time for his "final sanction" then he ended up having. That being said, I certainly wouldn't put it past Rassilon to come up with another plan in the short span of time in between being sent back to the Time War and the Time War ending. Especially since he is now trapped with the one character who may fear death more than he does(at least the Master didn't design an overly elaborate trap to teach people that immortality is wrong before making statements like "I will not die.") Since everybody knows that the Master will return eventually, I'm sure that we haven't seen the last of Rassilon. Coming back through the Doctor might work, although the Doctor clearly doesn't have the drumming in his head like the Master. Still, it would be dumb to try the same plan twice, and the only remaining Time Lord might be involved.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC)