Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/The Wedding of River Song


 * The Teselecta in Let's Kill Hitler was stiff and expressionless, for instance Teselecta Amy. How can the Teselecta Doctor look so realistic and Doctorish? The Doctor wasn't even at the commands, he was in the eye.
 * The Teselecta may have been modified to make it more advanced.


 * The Teselacta Amy was only 'stiff' because it had only just taken her form, and the pilots needed a while to get used to it. The Doctor on the other hand, may have had many hours (or longer) to practice.


 * Doesn't River telling Amy and Rory that the Doctor isn't really dead (just after having witnessed his "death") negate almost the entirety of series 6? The events following Lake Silencio should lead the group directly to meeting the younger Doctor and the events of the second episode, thus inciting all following episodes. Amy recognizes that River is her daughter at the end of the finale (possibly due to this information @#!*% through into the all-at-once time) even though she has not even given birth to Melody at this point. Is Amy still going to be kidnapped? How does this all work?!?
 * We dont know it was the early Rory and Amy from the Lake, it was my impression it was future Amy and Rory just before the older Doctor's death that was referred at the end as it seems it takes place in there house
 * It was indeed the "present" Amy and Rory, since they know River is their daughter.


 * It almost has to be early Amy and Rory (very soon after the shooting at Lake Silencio) because otherwise they would have met the Younger Doctor in the diner, and gone through series six again. I believe Amy also says something about the Doctor's death being recent, while if it was "present" Amy and Rory, they would have been travelling with him for months. Even if we're assuming the same "time travellers have different perspectives" can epxlain why Amy and Rory have knowledge that should not exist, it doesn't explain how they got out of the loop the show seems to have created when the series "folded back" on itself to fix time. Either time was reset and series 6 does not happen (meaning River/The Ponds should have a VERY different life) or there is a serious hole.


 * It cannot be past Amy and Rory because amongst other things in her drawings, a self portrait of her in Curse of the Black Spot is shown, which we know is post TIA/DoTM. Time does not move, but events still happen in a certain order, given she also remembers the post-hypnotic suggestion to kill the Silence (which doesn't happen until the future Doctor has died). The only time past Amy and Rory are shown is on the flashback to the beach as time is reset. There is no question that the end of the the episode is post-The God Complex, because the house the Ponds/Williams are living in is definitely the one the Doctor gave them judging by the style and definitely not the one they were living in when they received their envelopes. And yes, after time is reset, they do go on to meet the younger Doctor in the diner, we just don't see it, what we see is a flash forward from the death in TIA to the post TGC Amy and Rory (that does not mean the rest of Series 6 does not happen). Amy refers to the Doctor's death as recent because her perspective had changed, after the The God Complex, she didn't know that he was going to his death at that time, but with the memories of the altered timeline as well as the proper timeline in her head gives her a new perspective, because she knows now that at some point after he left her, he goes to the beach to die. @#!*%, the scene shown could set before Closing Time for the Ponds, it just has to take place after the God Complex.
 * The scene happens after the alternate 5:02 timeline and when Amy said the doctor is dead she meant. She had already seen his death and gone through the 5:02 events as she can remember themSigned Doctorin Tardis 21:50, December 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Why isn't the TARDIS in the 5.02pm universe as it was at Lake Silencio why would it not go into the 5.02 universe like the Teselecta?
 * It was. If you look in the background of the close-up of the Teselecta's eye, the TARDIS is behind the Doctor.
 * You're right, but then why didnt he just use the TARDIS to fix everything?
 * Because he can't? You'll have to be more specific than "fix everything".
 * If you think about it, he had fixed it (his death), but River "fixing it" from her end screwed everything up in a new and inventive way.


 * Even the TARDIS cannot erase a fixed point in time. The Doctor needed to be killed at Lake Silencio at 5.02 on that day. So he climbed into the Teselecta suit, so he could be present at his death.


 * How was the timeline restored if River kissed a Teselecta?
 * Because the doctor was inside the Teselecta, he described it like wearing a suit, and it was shown when he grabbed River's arm, that the restoration works through clothing, so the same princible applies here.
 * Or...
 * The scene that played out in The Impossible Astronaut always was the Teselecta being shot. When River managed to save the "Dcotor", time fractured. That would make River and the Teselecta the "opposite poles" of the event. While the Doctor was inside it, the "fix" wasn't dependant only on him.


 * When Rory stays behind to face the Silents, he refuses to remove his eyepatch so as not to "forget what is coming", even though the others have removed their eyepatches and not forgotten.
 * Two possibilities:
 * The long exposure to the eyedrive allowed a buffer.
 * He was speaking specifically about the Silence that would come through the door.
 * I think it may be both. He would remomber something is coming, but was concerned that he would "miss" one or more as they came in and he lost eye contact with the individuals.
 * (Side issue: Keep in mind that River, Rory, the Doctor and Amy-Ganger were able to escape a hive/nest when there focus could not have been on all he Silence present.)


 * If Time stops at the lake BEFORE all the event's of sereies 6, how does alternative "all of time at once" Amy remember the Minitour even though they never met the Minitour time changed at a fixed point at the lake BEFORE that adventure. And yet Amy has a drawing of the Minitour from her alternaive memories.
 * Because it was surpost to end with the doctor dying, the doctor describes it as different versions of the same event, happening symulantously, as such it did happen, only it didn't, if you understand what I mean.
 * The Minotaur - as well a Pirate Amy and Siren (both from The Curse of the Black Spot) - could be bleed through. Same as River's presence - she was born after IA remember.
 * Best techno-babble reasoning? Three quarters are all "complex space time events" to one extent or another. In Amy's case that could translate into "remembering" the alternate time line.
 * The Doctor himself said that Amy has unique powers because of the Time Crack (even though they never technically existed). So Amy can remember an alternate timeline that didn't happen because of time being changed.
 * The answer given by the Doctor is that Amy can remember alternate timelines due to her long exposure to the time cracks. That means she has both memories of the (at that point) current 'time doesn't change' timeline and the original The Impossible Astronaut through The God Complex timeline.


 * Heading one comment off at the pass, the episode's treatment of the death of the Brigadier does not contradict what's been mentioned on TV or in the novels. On TV the Doctor said in Battlefield that the Brig died in bed, as he as done here. And in the novels the Brig has his youth restored around the year 2010 and continues to live for many more years; there is nothing in this episode that says when the Brigadier actually died (time machine, remember). The only possible flub is why the Doctor would be upset at learning of the Brig's death if he already knew the circumstances.
 * It could also be possible that it was an example of a fluctuating point in time. Perhaps this timeline's Brigadier never had his youth restored, and thusly died earlier than the Doctor expected, which would have surprised him.
 * The canon-status of the books, comics, etc are always subservient to that of the TV series - if the TV says something that counters an event of the books, the TV show's version of the events is considered correct. The Brig would die in bed, but the date is unclear. Indeed, the date that The Doctor called is unknown as well - it could easily have been several years in the future. He's not as good about hitting dates as he'd like - it's the whole dramatic point of The Girl in the Fireplace for example ````
 * In terms of in-universe, The nurse said that he always asked for an extra glass in case the Doctor came to visit. Hearing this, the Doctor knows that he didn't come back to visit, and therefore can't in the future. Also, in terms of production, it was a homage to Nicholas Courtenay, a way of the series showing it's respects.


 * The events of Lake Silencio and the events of 'united' timeline all happen after Day of the Moon; hence every 'common' soldier should be imprinted with 'kill silent on sight' mission. We could imagine that the Kovarian's order was later reimprinted by silents by being imprisoned or something. But what about generic soldiers of captain Williams? Should we still presume that spreadout humanity fights The Silence across the Universe? In the way that they are still very oppressed 'parasite' race and hence need those religious orders?
 * The 'united' timeline only occurs 'after' Day of the Moon in a limited sense - it has a (sort of) history of its own, in which there was no "kill us all on sight" video, which the Doctor does mention.
 * Also, considering they know the Doctor's future, it's very possible the Silence/Kovarian found a way to cancel out the "shoot on sight".


 * If the Teselecta was shot, how was it able to regenerate?
 * Well with the Doctor at the controls and to direct the look, it would have been easy for the Teselecta to project energy waves to create a simulcrum of a Regeneration. Keep in mind this thing fired beams of light out of its mouth in LKH. Projecting yellow energy subcutaneously shouldn't be beyond its capabilities.


 * As eloquently pointed out by Steven Moffat in response to this question, "It can turn its legs into a motorbike and snog Alex Kingston ... and you're asking about a lightshow??"


 * The Amy in the garden at the end of the episode remembered the events of the alternative timeline, but had shown no memory of these events earlier in the series (between the shooting in The Impossible Astronaut and her leaving the TARDIS in The God Complex. Why did she only have access to these memories after she had parted ways with the Doctor, and what triggered her memory of them?
 * There's a lot of timey-wimey stuff here. Amy didn't remember the alternate timeline in the rest of the series because the alternate timeline hadn't yet been created in her personal timeline. It's like how the Doctor altered Kazran Sardick's personal past: why didn't he remember the Doctor his entire life? Because the Doctor had'nt yet gone back and changed Kazran's past, according to the Doctor's personal timeline. When the Doctor changed Kazran's past, the altered memories flowed down the timestream and reached the Kazran corresponding to the Doctor's immediate personal past. So Kazran remembered the altered events for the first time after the Doctor had left Kazran's present. The same thing applies here: Amy didn't remember the alternate timeline because the alternate timeline hadn't yet been created in the past. When River created and restored the alternate timeline, Amy immediately remembered the altered events for the first time, because they had only now just happened, so to speak. Does that make any sense? Sorry if I'm actually overcomplicating things.


 * Have the Doctor and River had other adventures with each other yet (eg. Jim the Fish)? and is the doctor 1103 years old?


 * I'd say yes.
 * This is suspect. While The Doctor certainly spent some time between the events of God Complex and Closing Time on his own, and more between the end of Closing Time and Wedding, (Not to mention between in between semi-seasons searching for Melody) it seems unlikely it was 200 years. He certainly had time to spend with River Song as well, but at that time he still had limited information as to why he should. Much of the (however much) older Doctor's actions at the beginning of the season were cloaked in subterfuge, to get both his friends and his younger self into a position to go through the adventures that would provide them with the information to start the ball rolling in finding River/Melody in the first place. So if pretending he's got a few more shared adventures under his belt would help, he'd not be above saying so. This begs the question of how he'd know who Jim the Fish was, but he could certainly have met Jim first, introduced River to him later, and took a gamble that he might have done that already, or passed it off as an adventure she'd not had yet.Vbartilucci talk to me 12:09, October 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * There must have been other adventures with the Doctor and River, keeping in mind that the Doctor didn't actually tell River his name yet - and this is key, because it's the method that she uses to identify herself (to him) as his wife back in the Library DW:Silence in the Library. The Doctor is convinced (then) that River is his wife because only his wife would know his true name. One might suppose that if there were even a chance that River could have learned his name some other way, or not in wedlock then that knowledge wouldn't have been so convincing to him.


 * Perhaps the Doctor was lying about being older? Because either he didn't regenerate (still looks like Matt Smith) in those 200 years, or he was actually covering up for minor defects in the Teselecta which could be explained as "aging".


 * No. An interview with Gareth Roberts confirms that the aging took place off screen between The God Complex and Closing Time, which means the Doctor is indeed 1103.


 * Time Lords can use the same body for centuries, so not regenerating is plausible, but what defects needed to be explained away? It was the Doctor who volunteered how old he was; no one asked him beforehand.
 * Can I suggest that the age of the teselecta was 1103 years old? That might explain the apparent age disparity between the Doc and the machine-doctor? Although how he managed to do jim the fish and the other stuff I haven't the foggiest.


 * This seems likely. In the standard timeline version of events established in The Impossible Astronaut, he claims to be 200 years older and to have met Jim the Fish, and he has seemingly no reason to lie about it. After time was restored, this is still the way it played out. It happened as it should have the first time, ages and events included.
 * People are overthinking this a little. The Doctor visited River and had adventures with her during the 200 years between The God Complex and Closing Time. And now that he's travelling alone - and River knows his secret - he could well experience all his other adventures with her (including the final one when he gives her a sonic screwdriver and tells her his real name) off-screen between the Series 6 finale and the Christmas special, for all we know.


 * :I have to agree with above and others, there's no reason to think the Jim the Fish and 200 years didn't happen. In Closing Time, the Doctor does note he's been on his on for a bit and later mentions how he's near the end of his life and had a long but fulfilling life etc. Obviously this partly comes from the fact even 900 years is fairly long in some ways and he believe he's going to die soon, but my impression is he's also saying he's done a lot since he left Amy and Rory. And why wouldn't he? It seems he genuinely believed he was going to die, he knew when in time he was going to die, so why not spend as a lot of it me doing stuff before he died? Yes he had to avoid death for a while but as with all these sort of time paradoxes he knew he could because he knew when and where he was going to die. As others have also noted, 200+ years in the same body isn't I believe a problem for Time Lords. (I don't know if he knew at what age he would die, if he did then of course this mean he knew precisely how much time he had.) He may have met River a few times during the 200 years, he's likely to have more meetings I don't believe there's any sign the character isn't coming back? The only thing we don't know is whether he's done the sonic screwdriver and name thing. Technically since AFAWK, he genuinely believed he was going to die for a long time (it seems he only decided the Teselect late in the game) and knew he had done those things, and knew if he didn't give the sonic screw driver River would really die, it should have occured to him to tie up loose ends. But this would mean we probably won't get to see these events, which suggests to me the producers are just going to ignore such a consideration.


 * How are Dorium and the other heads alive? Don't people generally need bodies to live?
 * Presumably they have some kind of life support. Dorium has a "media chip", so it's possible they have cybernetics keeping them alive.
 * Considering the Headless Monks somehow keep their bodies alive without the heads, keeping the heads alive without the bodies isn't too big a jump.Vbartilucci talk to me 12:09, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Can I suggest that the age of the teselecta was 1103 years old? That might explain the apparent age disparity between the Doc and the machine-doctor? Although how he managed to do jim the fish and the other stuff I haven't the foggiest.


 * When Amy returns to save Rory with a machine gun in hand, how is she able to remember that the Silents are about to swarm him if she had already removed her eye-drive?
 * She could see them.


 * This doesn't answer the question at all. Please read it again. Why did she  return ?
 * The series of events goes like this:
 * Amy takes off her eyedrive. She forgets the silents.
 * Amy sees that something is trying to break down the door, and Rory is going to hold them off.
 * Amy leaves, realizes she loves Rory, and comes back to save him from whatever it is that's trying to get in that's clearly hostile. -- Dark T Zeratul talk to me 21:46, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you're understanding the Eye-Drives (or I-Drives) backwards. They were stated to record and then write directly to the memory centers of your brain. So, she removed her eyepatch and could not further receive new memories from it, but she still had the existing ones. With that context she can extrapolate the rest.

I'm actually confused about the set up for this. What's the logic behind River being able to intentionally cause this time bubble in the first place? Which iteration of River is doing this?


 * So, the "fixed point in time" is actually the Doctor's image being shot and not actually the Doctor's death. Coupled with the idea that the rest of the universe is convinced of his death... To the point of convicting and imprisoning River (albeit she can escape whenever she wants) in the Stormcage well into the 51st century, and the crew of the Teselecta being similarly convinced (in spite of them being from a significantly future time, where the truth is still unknown)... Unless this is all untrue... Indeed nobody seemed to know who was in the spacesuit (a clean escape for the "assassin") it has still only been implied that River was accused of killing the Doctor.
 * When watching the episode, I found myself wondering if River, in addition to causing the time bubble by "rewriting" the fixed point, also inadvertently caused the Doctor's "death" to become a fixed point in time by essentially broadcasting that the Doctor was going to die at that time and place throughout time and space with the "timey-wimey distress beacon". It's a bit of a paradox as each action leads to the other, but I wonder if The Silence just chose the Lake Silencio spot and let River do the rest (possibly under their influence).


 * The Doctor asks: "Why Lake Silencio? Why, Utah?"
 * I ask: Why THAT question? Was anyone actually asking it?
 * The Doctor was. He wanted to know why he had to die there.
 * At what point does failure to answer the questions that are ongoing before adding new ones become a discontinuity or "plot hole"?
 * Why-did-the T-A-R-D-I-S-explode?
 * Steven Moffat said that all but one question will be answered in that final.
 * If it was the Silence then what were they thinking? They appear to be coporeal being and in as much danger as anythig else if everything was unmade. If they really consider themselves the "sentinels of history", an ironic choice of vocation given what they are, then if they did something that caused all of history to fall apart they should perhaps consider a new career path.
 * What happened when Amy pulled the trigger?
 * Why did they want Melody Pond?
 * They wanted Melody Pond because she's part-human and part-Time Lord
 * What was the point Of River Song?
 * They wanted to create her, so they could.
 * If they just wanted someone to be in a spacesuit and fail to stop it shooting the Doctor why couldn't Madame K do it herself? ANYONE could do that.
 * Madame Kovarian did not want to go to prison. Simple as that.
 * Why an astronaut for that matter?
 * So the suit and person inside could survive in water and it included weapons.
 * If the fixed point was so important why did they have no problem with River trying to kill the Doctor in Berlin?
 * Why did River Song not know about River Song, how did Amy explain getting back without mentioning her? How'd she manage to never mention her?
 * And given the very great gift of the Silence, why, when they have that and and already brainwashed their killing machine not just put her in the suit show her a photo of the Doctor tell her to "see and shoot" (a trick they learned from him) then clear off leaving her to subconsciously kill the Doctor of the shores of Lake Slencio as soon as they meet instead of having her fight a spacesuit?
 * Also, since she beat it so easily, why isn't the fixed point revolving around her draining a battery?
 * The Silence appear too be the most discontinuous element ever introduced - their nature helps that, of course - but even so nothing about what we hear about them seems consistent with what they do.
 * Basically we've, apparently, had two seasons now where River has managed to break spacetime and the Silence seem to be in their element.
 * I suspect either Stephen Moffit is deceiving us about motives of the Silence or else he hasn't thought this through properly.
 * I'm not expecting anyone to try and answer all these questions. I just feel it's a lot left up in the air to keep back for at least Autumn of next year. And I don't really see space for much of it then.
 * Why did you list about 100 unanswered questions from the past two seasons and list them as one discontinuity with this episode? While the Doctor was worrying about his death, wondering why they killed him at Lake Silencio is a more important question than wondering why his TARDIS blew up 200 years ago. It would be the same as Dorium saying "So, Doctor, how did you and HG Wells survive certin death back in Timelash anyway?" It just wasn't on his mind. If you're looking for answers to the actual questions, many, though not all of them have been answerd. For example, you seem to be under the impression that the Silence are trying to cause timey wimey paradoxes. Really, the Silence just underestimated the impact of blowing up a TARDIS last season, and they expected River to kill the Doctor properly this season. All of their actions suggest that they don't want silence to fall. The Silence and Madame Kovarian didn't try to stop Melody from killing the Doctor in Berlin, because they pretty much lost track of her in Day of the Moon, and she just knew that she was suppossed to kill the Doctor. She didn't know about the fixed point in time yet. The fixed point in time revolved around River killing the Doctor because the Silence took a still point in time and turned it into a fixed point in time with River killing him. She tried to do what the Doctor almost did in The WAters of Mars, and ended up completely screwing up time. They wanted Melody Pond because she was concieved in the time vortex and so could be turned into a Time Lord, and for whatever reason they decided that it would take a Time Lord to kill a Time Lord. River Song didn't know about River Song because she wasn't River Song yet, she was Melody Pond. She only became River Song because that's what everybody was calling her in that episode. There arre plenty of unanswered questions in the past two seasons, but try watching the episodes to see if they actually were answered next time.


 * It is 5:02 in Utah when the event happens. How come in Britain, a different time zone, the time is also 5:02? And if time has 'stopped' how come only timepieces are effected, when the rest of the world is progressing normally?
 * It' 5:02 everywhere in the universe. The different time zones don't matter in this case. Either that, or the Tesselecta was just iving the British time o fhe Doctor's death. Also, what do you mean the rest of the world is progressing normally? Did you notice how Silurians, dinosaurs, mammoths, Churchill, Dickens, the Roman Emoire and about a million other things were all coexisting. Time didn't stop; it just all happnened at once.


 * The "oldest question in the universe", and one that must "never be answered", is supposedly "Doctor...who?". As it thus pertains to The Doctor, how can he, at only 1100+ years old, possibly be the source of the oldest question in the universe?
 * In the same way that River wrote the earliest message in the universe... "hello sweetie" on Planet One.
 * In her final scene, how does Amy know that the Doctor is dead? Assuming the events of Series 6 occurred in the order in which they were broadcast (there is evidence that they don’t – and plot holes that would be fixed if they didn’t – but that’s a discussion for another article), then, starting with “The Impossible Astronaut,” Amy reconnects with the Doctor and witnesses his death, before learning that the Doctor who died is not “her” Doctor, but one from 200 years into the future. She continues to travel with “her” Doctor and has the adventures seen from “The Curse of the Black Spot” through “The God Complex,” where the Doctor leaves her to continue the “bigger, scarier adventure waiting for” her as a married woman. While she ostensibly knows that his death still looms in his future – she fretted about it throughout the first half of Series 6 – she makes no mention of it here. The next time we see her chronologically, she has become a model, and has been crying in her garden, saddened that the future Doctor died at Lake Silencio. What event occurred between “The God Complex” and the finale that alerted Amy to the fact that the future Doctor was “dead”? Was it the restoration of time to it’s proper place after the Doctor kissed the newly-married River?::*:As noted above, part of the explaination is it was more raw and clear because she could now remember the 'all times at once' timeline. As also noted elsewhere we can presume she could remember because of her ability to remember stuff through alternate time lines which is connected to her exposure to the crack through time (which never existed). And it's clear she did remember since she remembered killing Madame Kovarian. (She also suddenly realised she was the Doctor's mother-in-law, from memory River had mentioned beinged married to the Doctor in front of Amy before but this was more of in a joking fashion. I think it's clear one of the reasons it occured to her was because of her memories of the wedding in the alternate time line.) We can presume this experience helped confirm her fears, the Doctor was going to die and there was nothing to do to save her and that it was her daughter River Song who was in the astronaut suit and who killed the Doctor, even if River wasn't really in control of the suit. (Remember that until then, this wasn't clear to Amy, River never revealed it to Amy in the proper time line AFAWK and she couldn't see who was in the suit. There were a lot of hints it was River/Melody but it was never directly confirmed. In the alternate 'all times at once' line it finally was confirmed to Amy that it was indeed River/Melody.) This meant the wound was still 'fresh', not helped when River came along. And they could both talk about it freely since that was probably the first time they met where they both knew all there was to know about the Doctor's death (well Amy didn't know he didn't die, but that's beside the point) and the Doctor wasn't present, so no spoilers. As to why Amy only remembered the alternate time line now, well as noted above there's always a 'time-whimy' paradox here that can never really be resolved, as with most cases when there is intersection of time lines. When did the alternate time line happen? at 5:02PM 22th April 2011? At all times? Not really answerable. Remember that theoretically (I don't think this will actually happen, it's just for emphasis) there could be another future Amy somewhere 5:02PM 22th April 2011, perhaps even watching the death if they're careful. Since time travel exists, you can't say there's only one 5:02PM 22th April 2011 for Amy, all you can talk about is a moment in her life and even that gets confused once you have alternate time lines. And Amy was just a spectator in the events leading up to the creation of the alternate time line, she did see the doctor getting killed (and not getting killed) but unlike River and the Doctor, she didn't create it. In other words, you can probably say it wasn't really in a fixed point of her life. (Hence as others have noted the minotaur.) As noted below, it's likely from Amy's POV she doesn't expect to see the doctor again which also doesn't help. TL;DR, there's no way you can resolve a time paradox like this, just accept things happened as they happened.


 * Amy knows that after the Doctor has dropped her off, that he will not come back for her. As she has seen the older doctor die, she knows that she will not see him again before his death, and therefore cannot stop his death, and therefore his death has/will/always happened. He is dead to her.


 * It is the oldest question in the Whoniverse. It appeared in big letters at the beginning of the very first episode.