Forum:Deleted Scenes and Rule 4 By Proxy

Introduction
"Oh, Davros, I am far more than just another Time Lord."

- Seventh Doctor, thing he never said.

Many moons ago, we codified into T:VS the concept of "Rule 4 By Proxy." The rule, relatively new compared to others, states that even when a piece of fiction's intention of being in the Doctor Who universe is dubious or disputed, having a valid source reference these events is enough to bring said piece of fiction out of the INVALID section of the website. So, for instance, PROSE: Storm in a Tikka is a sequel to TV: Dimensions in Time and a prequel to TV: Search Out Space, so we now consider all three stories valid.

Since then, we have had numerous interesting discussions about the lengths that this rule goes to, how small or big a reference has to be to apply, and so on. Well, today we're here to discuss perhaps one of the most controversial topics.

Since 2008, we have had a thoroughly-followed rule that Deleted scenes can not be valid on the site. This dates back to Forum:Are deleted scenes canon?, where it was ultimately judged that as deleted scenes were removed from the final product, they were not intended to be canon.

Oh, sorry.

-it was ultimately judged that as deleted scenes were removed from the final product, they were not intended to be set inside the Doctor Who Universe. Additionally, User:Tangerineduel argued, and then ruled, that deleted scenes should not be considered valid unless they are featured in an extended "special edition" of an episode.

Now, surprisingly, I am not here to unravel this argument, and although I do disagree with Ye Admins of Old about topics like What defines something being a deleted scene and Do reconstructions of unfinished material count as them being completed, I generally do not think we should widely validate every deleted scene included on a DVD or VHS.

Instead, today's topic is how we deal with things we have deemed "deleted scenes," and their relation to a theoretical and non theoretical Rule 4 By Proxy argument.

This is possible because most DVD releases of deleted scenes sort them into groups, and thus give titles for all the segments. And the argument (which was originally pitched by User:Pluto2 in T:TF) is that some of these "deleted sequences" should be given pages and then made valid, on the justification that future stories reference them.

A good reason to revisit this now is that we have just changed Rule 1. Arguably, our old Rule 1 would have made this debate a null discussion, as few deleted scenes could be called completed narratives. However, now that our rules state that we validate Fiction in general, this is entire possibly as a route for us to take.

Again, we would not be validating all deleted scenes, just those which can be justified. Additionally, we would only validate deleted scenes which were "produced", and thus can be viewed. The idea of a deleted scene, something that was written and then scrapped before filming began, would not be something that could be validated. We would still require these scenes to have been commercially licensed and released in some way, especially things on DVD.

Also, quite obviously, if this suggestion passes this will need to be codified in T:VS.

There are a few examples of this I've come up with to help everyone understand the idea here.

Remembrance of the Daleks
In the TV story Remembrance of the Daleks, the Seventh Doctor and Davros have a showdown which ends in the destruction of Skaro. In the original script, which was filmed, this exchange takes place:


 * Davros: Are you threatening me? If so, it is most unwise.
 * The Doctor: Every time our paths have crossed, I have defeated you.
 * Davros: (laughs) You flatter yourself, Doctor! In the end, you are merely another Time Lord!
 * The Doctor: Oh Davros. I am far more than 'just another Time Lord.'

This was ultimately deleted from the episode, but was later featured in the documentary 30 Years in the TARDIS and its sequel edit More than 30 Years in the TARDIS. Because of this, any child or adult introduced to Doctor Who in the 1990s probably saw this clip, and many presumed it was in the episode and was, er, "In the Doctor Who universe" already.

Now, according to our page on the story, no special edition has ever edited this into the episode. Many fans claim to have seen it air in the story on PBS, but until we find a copy that proves this, it seems to be a false memory caused by 30 Years. If we do find an off-air VHS with the scene intact one day, it would be valid regardless of this debate. For all I know, there is proof of this out there... But for the sake of this debate, please allow me to use this as an example. :)

Regardless, it is a fact that this scene has been referenced in future fiction as if it really took place.

The easiest to reference is Doctor Who: The Novel of the Film, a Doctor Who novel of the Film.

"[The Master] swung round to Chang Lee, his dark glasses gone, bearing down on the Chinese boy with green serpentine eyes. 'Did you know, the Doctor once boasted of being "more than just a Time Lord"?' Change Lee was bewildered now - this was getting slightly out of his league. 'Oh, yeah, right. What?' 'He really should have said "less than a Time Lord"! He's half-human - a hybrid. [The Master then calls the Doctor a racial slur meant for people who are mixed-race].'"

- PROSE: Doctor Who: The Novel of the Film

So as you can see here, the Remembrance deleted scene is here used to justify the "Doctor is half-human" retcon. Typically, however, fans like to use this as evidence of The Other/Timeless Child stuff, and I imagine this quote has been referenced in more stories than this.

Regardless, this is a key example of what would typically be enough for Rule 4 By Proxy. If this scene hadn't been cut from Remembrance, and for some reason the Rule 4ness of this story was put into doubt, we could use this quote to say "Hey, that TV story is valid."

Instead, the question is does this validate the deleted scene?

I personally think that there is an argument to made that saying "The Master said the Doctor once said this thing" is a lot more clunky than just saying "The Doctor once said this, (HOMEVID: title) which the Master lated referenced. (PROSE: title)" Since articles are already likely to use situations like this to reference the deleted content, it's fair for us to simply allow the citing of moments like this.

So how would we go about covering something like this, regardless of if it's valid or not?

Some would likely prefer that we keep all deleted scenes on the story pages themselves. However, I disagree. Since we're only covering deleted scenes which were officially released (thus passing Rule 2) and were referenced in future releases (thus passing Rule 4) it would not be good enough to have all deleted scenes from a story grouped together. There would just be no proper way to indicate which deleted scenes we've agreed to cover, which ones have official releases, and even which ones were filmed and not just scripted.

Instead, I think we need a story page for every deleted scene we cover. In this instance, I have no idea for a title to this sequence, as the DVD copy I've found kind of groups all the scenes together. But I imagine some title has been given at some point, even if just in an article, just enough to give a page name. If not, we can simply go with something awful, like Deleted scene 12 (Remembrance of the Daleks home video).

The point is that we would then validate the scene based on its continuity to the 1996 novel of the TV movie, and likely other references as well.

Journey's End, scene 135
Next, let's discuss a case study where we actually have some authorial intent to cite!

In Series 4's finale, Journey's End, the so-called Meta-Crisis Doctor is left on Pete's World to live his life with Rose Tyler. Originally, the sequence was going to show the Tenth Doctor giving the M-C Doctor a piece of TARDIS coral, with the intention of him growing a second TARDIS for Rose and him to explore the universe with. This was actually filmed! In the recorded scene, the Meta-Crisis Doctor complains that growing a TARDIS takes thousands of years. But Donna explains:


 * Donna Noble: If you shattify the plasmic shell and modify the dimensions stabiliser to [something something something] 6.3... youuuu accelerate the growth power by 59!

Which means that growing a TARDIS should only take 30 or 40 years. This moment doesn't really make sense, it's a little fan-fictiony in my opinion, and it was ultimately deleted only because it threw the pacing of the episode off. However, it was the opinion of writer Russell T Davies that the scene always had a chance of "being set inside the ''Doctor Who universe" and that it could be revisited later.

"We argued over this, and part of me still wishes it was in. But Julie was right though it was just getting in the way of so many complicated endings and so many complicated emotions. It did just throw you in the middle when you suddenly start talking about a new TARDIS... So I like to image this still happened though. So one day we'll come back and put this one back in! Okay..."

- Russell T Davies, discussing "Episode 13 Scene 135".

Since this all came out, at least one Big Finish audio, AUDIO: The Siege of Big Ben, has directly shown the Meta-Crisis Doctor actively growing a TARDIS. To quote our own Wiki page on the story:

"Inside, Jackie saw the contents of the Doctor's lab. Three of the walls had shelves on them, all containing some combination of books, test tubes, and "loads of science stuff." The fourth wall had a plethora of computer and television monitors on it. In the middle of the room was the TARDIS coral that the original Doctor had given to the Meta-Crisis Doctor and Rose on Bad Wolf Bay. Taken off guard by the sight of the growing TARDIS, Jackie scolded the Doctor again. Concerned that the Doctor was planning on leaving Rose behind and breaking her heart again, she told him that she would not allow it on her watch. She even told him that he was not to take Rose with him as she has a family here so if he took Rose, he would have to take her entire family. Though she also added that "Tony has sports day tomorrow so we're going nowhere." The Doctor just looked away from Jackie and mumbled that the TARDIS wasn't growing as fast as he'd thought it would, so it didn't matter anyways."

- The plot to AUDIO: The Siege of Big Ben, according to our wiki.

I would be willing to bet that there are more stories that reference this, but I'm not sure. I'll admit that the Meta-Crisis Doctor is perhaps the topic that I have the least interest in across the entire DW franchise.

But the general point is that this alone is enough to argue that Rule 4 By Proxy and some sort of twisted authorial intent apply to this scene. Luckily for us, the DVD bonus features give us a (slightly) acceptable page name: Episode 13 Scene 135. So we could go with Scene 135 (home vid) or Episode 13 Scene 135 (home vid) or Scene 135 (Series 4 home vid) or Scene 135 (Journey's End home vid). My money is one one of the first two.

I think this is my strongest example. Allowing users to cite this scene when it's relevant is much more helpful and in-line with authorial intent than asking users to patch together context of this scene from tertiary reference without the scene itself.

P.S.
Okay, so here's a controversial one. Not because people will disagree with me here, but because I am so deeply connected to the history of this topic.

P.S. was an "animated" webcast which saw a conclusion to the story of Brian Williams and arguably the entire Pond clan. In the story, Brian learns of the fate of Amy and Rory, and that he will never see them again. The only silver living is that he meets his grandson, Anthony Williams, who is older than he is.

Because the webcast is depicted as a rotating series of drawings which clearly originated as storyboards, there was speculation that it was a "deleted scene," and that this was originally the ending to TV: The Angels Take Manhattan. However, writer Chris Chibnall revealed that the scene was actually intended as a DVD live-action bonus feature. Mark Williams was not available for filming, so the dialogue was recorded and it was turned into a webcast. Ultimately, in all regards other than the quality of the art, it somewhat resembles the early DW webcasts, such as WC: Shada.

Now, we previously had a heated debate about over 11 years ago at Forum:P.S. You'll notice I was one of the most vocal defenders, so again I am not without bias here. Ultimately, User:CzechOut ruled against the story. Now, when you start reading the really really old forums, a surprising thing you'll discover is that "closing statements" are kind of a more modern invention... So instead of there being a clear paragraph wrapping up the entire topic and clarifying site policy, we all just started debating about Shada and the Restoration Team and Canon and all this other stuff until it was shut down randomly one day.

So instead, I believe this passage from earlier was the intended, spiritual closing statement.

"Look at it from the other side. If we allow P.S., then we have no creditable rule preventing the admission of deleted scenes that are on a high percentage of DVD releases in the classic and modern series. Not only that, but we would have no real protection against the ramblings of RTD in The Writer's Tale (or even his column in DWM) about scenes he was considering. We'd have to say that the Eighth Doctor's regeneration we saw in the extra features of Endgame (graphic novel) was in fact the "real" regeneration of Eight to Nine. We'd also have to conclude that the actual title of The Claws of Axos was The Vampire from Space, since there's an officially released title card on the DVD. Of even greater difficulty, we'd have to somehow have to grant the TV version of Shada some kind of legitimacy, even though major parts of it — really, most of the narrative's concluding scenes) — were never filmed at all. It would be a major sea change in the policy we currently have to allow storyboards to substitute for story. As our policies sit now, it is an absolutely simple call — which doesn't even require discussion — to say that P.S. doesn't count. I changed the coverage we gave to P.S. in absolutely the same way that I would change the spelling of color to colour. If you want P.S. to count, then you will have to change the underlying policy by starting a thread arguing for the inclusion of all deleted scenes. We absolutely cannot have a situation where this single failed project gets to be counted but others aren't.."

- User:CzechOut, what was probably the closing statement, Forum:P.S..

Anyways, so now that we've changed the underlying policy of the website, and we've found a way to validate some deleted scenes without blindly validating all of them, let's re-tackle P.S..

So the biggest piece of evidence we have as of this moment is that Anthony Williams, introduced in P.S. and in no other real sources, has been codified as existing inside of the Doctor Who universe past this. Most remarkably, in Rory's Story, Amy is stated to be pregnant and Rory begins recording messages for "Baby Anthony." This means that we essentially have a valid prequel to P.S. currently on the website.

However, I do have to say for the record that I disagree with Czech's statement above as much today as I did was I was 14. The P.S. webcast was clearly put together to be presented as a "finished" animated version of the story. Yes, it uses crude sketches as animation, but almost certainly because of budgetary reasons. As narration was commissioned from Arthur Darvill, this story was produced. Recording new narration just for this webcast is enough to call this a completed production in my opinion.

Saying that WC: P.S. is a deleted scene of HOMEVID: P.S. is like saying AUDIO: The Song of Megaptera is a deleted scene of TV: The Song of the Space Whale. It makes no sense.

But, if we're going to put that aside, and just accept the precedent that P.S. is a deleted scene...

Then in this case, Rule 4 By Proxy would clearly validate it under this theory. The continued presence of Anthony Williams in Who fiction confirms what should have been obvious in 2012: the P.S. webcast animation was created to clarify that these events did happen inside of the Doctor Who universe.

But I do understand if there's hesitation. As Czech said, if we cover P.S., then one day we might cover the TV version of Shada too.

"The Pilot Episode"?
Okay, now THIS will be the most controversial thing in this forum post, without a doubt. But, it's been referenced in the T:TF submissions by two different users, so I thought I would highlight it here.

The Pilot Episode is the official name given by BBC to the first episode of Doctor Who ever produced. The real title is An Unearthly Child, as it really is the first "take" of the actual episode 1: An Unearthly Child, which itself was part 1 of 100,000 BC.

Basically, everyone working on the show filmed a version of the script... and Sydney Newman hated it. So he ordered details be changed, technical failings be fixed, and additionally William Hartnell was able to adjust his performance.

Now, we judge Rule 4 by the authorial intent at the time of release. And "The Pilot Episode" was first released in 1991, on the VHS The Hartnell Years. By this point, it was clearly not the intent of anyone that this story took place in the Doctor Who Universe understood to exist in the 1990s.

If you're wondering why validating it would so controversial, here's the most infamous quote that didn't end up in the second version of AUC:


 * Susan: I'm not lying! I loved your school. I loved England in the 20th century. The last five months have been the happiest of my life.
 * Barbara: But you are one of us. You look like us, you sound like us.
 * Susan: I was born in the 49th century.
 * Ian: What? Now, look, Susan. I've had enough of this. Come on, let's get out of here.

Obviously it was decided this was too specific, and in the final episode the dialogue is:
 * Susan: It's not! Look, I love your school. I loved England in the 20th century. The last five months have been the happiest of my life.
 * Barbara:  But you are one of us. You look like us, you sound like us.
 * Susan: I was born in another time, another world.
 * Ian:  Now look here, Susan, you. Oh, come on, Barbara, let's get out of here.

Which is a much better Who origin if you're the kind of person who likes to watch the first episode and go "Gallifrey! Gallifrey! She's talking about Gallifrey! That's a Gallifrey reference right there!"

So yeah, the general thought has been that the "Pilot Episode" is simply one big deleted scene, and not a stand-alone episode by itself. This is so true that the admins have historically declined to give it a DAB (as arguably the title should read "The Pilot Episode" (home vid)) as it simply hasn't been viewed as a "story" at all.

However, there's recently been talk of validating it despite this. And this all comes down to Rule 4 By Proxy and, more specifically, the BBC novel PROSE: Unnatural History. This novel has a member of the Faction Paradox directly speculate that, um, actually... "The Pilot Episode" is canon, it's just a defunct timeline.


 * (Boy): Maybe you weren't always a Time Lord. But now you've always been a Time Lord.
 * (Boy): Maybe you originally came from some planet in the forty-ninth century. Fleeing from the Enemy who'd overrun your home.
 * (Eighth Doctor): I said I'm not listening! Laa laa laa laa laa-
 * (Boy): -and you've just been written and rewritten and overwritten, ever since.

It should be noted that this directly follows several other examples the Boy already knows of "alterations" made to the Doctor's past, as he also alludes to the Loom origin being overwritten by the Ulysses stuff.

Now, I do want to say that this is not really a topic I care deeply about. And if the consensus is that we don't count this as R4BP, I don't think this should overrule everything I've pitched above. BUT... While this reference is very vague, I do think the authorial intent is clear. Jonathan Blum and Kate Orman are clearly implying that "The Pilot Episode" is a long-defunct timeline, as tracked or caused by the Faction Paradox.

Now, the big question at this stage is coverage. I think if we validate The Pilot Episode, this would be a case where it's best to split character pages off. This might just be me, but having Susan Foreman (The Pilot Episode) with Susan Foreman's page simply referencing it as a potentially erased timeline sounds a lot less headache inducing than the two versions of AUC arguing with each other for several paragraphs. In this case, we would also have The Doctor (The Pilot Episode), which would probably redirect from First Doctor (The Pilot Episode). Additionally, as I pitched above, it would be best to have The Pilot Episode moved to The Pilot Episode (home vid), regardless of if we make it valid or not.

I also strongly believe that we should discuss TPE not as "the retroactive first Doctor Who story," but as an oddity released in 1991. So pages like Susan Foreman and indeed the Doctor should retain AUC as the "first appearance" listing.

Novelisations
Now, this is less an example and more a small hiccup in the plan which is important enough to split into its own mini-debate.

Looking into this, I haven't been able to find a specific example of this happening. BUT it probably almost certainly has happened.

Until I find evidence of a specific case, here's the full theoretical...


 * 1) A scene is written.
 * 2) The scene is filmed.
 * 3) It is deleted from the final edit for pacing or for not working.
 * 4) The scene is retained by the BBC
 * 5) The scene is never edited into any special edition of any kind
 * 6) The scene is featured in the novelisation of the story
 * 7) The scene is commercially released via a DVD bonus feature

In the above situation, should this count as Rule 4 by proxy? Should a novelisation be able to validate a deleted scene?

Again, I tried to find an example of this, but it's not easy. Few episodes before Shada have enough surviving raw footage to include on DVDs. Most deleted scenes heavy episodes from the '80s have extended special editions, which already put the scenes back in. 1996's The Novel of the Film does include several deleted scenes, but despite being in the work print of the TV movie, these have never been released commercially and have only been leaked. So I dunno.

But generally, I think this is a separate question than the rest of this thread. Originally, I was quite worried bout this as I feared it could be destructive to the website. But as I haven't been able to find a single example of this, it's probably not something to get bent out-of-shape about.

Conclusion
So that's my proposal. We now have five questions I would like to have your thoughts on:

Should Rule 4 by proxy apply to deleted scenes?

Should Rule 4 by proxy apply to "The Pilot Episode" itself?

Should Rule 4 by proxy apply when the source of validation is a novelization?

Should P.S. be valid, because of or regardless of Rule 4 By Proxy?

And finally, is there any other part of the OP you want to comment on?

Also, if you have any examples that might qualify under this potential rule, please bring them up in the debate. I didn't pick the four best examples for this argument, I picked the literal only four examples that I could come up with. So if you believe this is a "slippery slope," I'd love to hear the most outrageous possible things you're assuming we could validate with this idea (keeping in mind that we still expect these scenes to pass the first three rules). Personally, again, this OP represents every example I could think of.


 * The only exception is actually that User:Pluto2 thinks that the Spider Dalek bonus feature should qualify for this, as this Spider-Dalek has been retconned as being from an alternate universe by two separate stories. I'm a little iffy, because this is test footage and not a deleted scene per se. It would ultimately be harmless, but it is the one extra example I left out of the OP.

A final point is that it might be a good idea for us to use this forum's outline for deleted scene coverage to also allow these scenes to be discussed in the non-valid subspace, but at the moment this is just a concept and nothing more concrete.

Thank you for reading. OS25🤙☎️ 23:44, 22 March 2023 (UTC)