Talk:River Song/Archive 1

River's Early Life
"She was, in fact, a future companion of his who travelled with him off and on." - It's hardly a fact is it? She claims it's true but there is no evidence yet to support it. Especially as one of her first lines in Silence in the Library is "I lied, I'm always lying. Bound to be others." DMaple 15:11, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Good point. There's no guarantee she isn't a con artist. It could be that the Doctor (or someone close to him) wrote a biograhy of him at some point which Song stole and is using to insinuate herself into his life for her own personal gain. Sour Bob 64.134.166.40 17:59, April 28, 2010 (UTC) == River’s book==

After reading this entry, I've got a question about it's mention of the Blue Book.

I'd like to refer to this part: "... this might indicate that the blue book is in fact the Doctor's biography, written some time after his death later on in his own personal time-line."

How was it mentioned or indicated that this book was written after the Doctor's death? And since he's a Time Lord ... should this mean his final death or "just" a regeneration?

Yes, it seemed quite obvious that the Blue Book contains some of the Doctor's future and that River Song knows him pretty well. She also mentioned that he looks younger than the version she knows, but it didn't sound to me as if he was dead in her time-line. And since she's so careful about the book, I think she wouldn't dare to mention something like this about his future.

Treelight 18:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It is only possible that the Blue Book was written after the Doctor's death. If it is likely that River Song has traveled with the Time Lord, it is likely that she may have picked up the book in the further future of the Doctor's time-line.

It is also possible that the Blue Book is indeed the Doctor's biography, it may be added to every time the Doctor regenerates. This would also explain away the theory that the Doctor dies. Although, it has been mentioned previously by a Doctor Who writer that a Time Lord may only have thirteen regenerations.

Queenling 19:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

She kind of calls it a diary. 71.99.82.202 14:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

that blue book looks like the tarids outer shell thingy, well the police box :D LOL

River Song does not actually call the book a diary, she merely states that it is against the Doctor's own rules to see it, and that it contains spoilers. And the fact that the Blue Book is similar to the TARDIS has already been recognized by fans. Queenling 16:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The Doctor refers to it as her (River Song's) diary in the concluding part, Forest Of The Dead. I'd suggest that this, and not the biography (although other biographies are mentioned in the first part) explanation, is correct. 82.23.83.228 20:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Why would the Doctor have rules about a book that was written after his own death, if that's when it was written? I think it's a diary that River owns (and the Doctor has one too) so they can compare dates, as they meet at different points in each others timeline. For instance, the Doctor might have experienced Point A and B, but River might have only experienced Point A so far. If that makes sense... Will101 17:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I also think it unlikely that it is a book written about him after his death or that River Song is trying to con the Doctor. She is certainly keeping some things hidden but her attitudes and feelings towards the Doctor seem far too genuine, and anyway why would she be so sure of the Doctor showing up is they were enemies? Doorofnight 18:50, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Towards the beginning of the episode, River Song takes the Doctor aside and flips through the book. She says that he "looks young" and it must have been the "early days" for him. She then looks at the pages, and asks if he's been with her at certain points in time. I think that the Blue Book is obviously her diary keeping track of their shared experiences, to keep them both on the 'same page,' so it were, when they're together. Seeing as they're both living two separate timelines that intersect at various points, they'd need a reference to which points the other has experienced so far, and that is the Blue Book! River Song (since she said herself that the Doctor isn't allowed to see the book) writes down each experience shared, and orders them presumably in the Doctor's timeline. MrCatharsis 08:20, April 23, 2010 (UTC) == Recognizing the Doctor==

"Her" Doctor... Does anyone not think she could mean the Eleventh Doctor? Just a theory, mind you.Matoro3311 "Shout At Me""My Contribs" 14:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well...no. She identifies the Tenth Doctor as her Doctor, recognising him, just not how youthful he is. --Tangerineduel 15:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)





I agree with Tangerineduel. Also, from Silence in the Library, "from the face it's the early days" suggests that when she met the doctor in her past, it was still the tenth doctor, but may have regenerated later. 74.67.62.14 18:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The way that the story is put forth, and how she uses it to try and identify what era of Doctor he is, asking if they've done certain things together from the book, its obviously her diary of her travels with him in the future, I don't see how there's any question of it being anything else.78.105.240.23 19:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

If she has to ask the Tenth Doctor if they've met before on his first and her last meeting, she may have images of all of the doctors but she can't understand which order they are in. If she did she'd be able to say 'You're an earlier Doctor than the one I met with the Weaping Angels, so there's no point in talking to you about them'. Plus the only Doctor who can have images of all his incarnations is the Thirteenth Doctor. Unless anyone can see a flaw, could someone with the authority add this in please? 86.112.80.194 10:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC) Spacedoggie == River Song’s name==

How is her name a reference to Huckleberry Finn? Surely it's more a reference to the 1973 film adaptation of Tom Sawyer, which included the Academy Award-nominated song, River Song?  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 12:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC) == The Doctor’s name==

"His future self told her this to get his past self to trust her when he first met her."

Where is the evidence for this? considering the reaction her gave to hearing his name, its unlikely that we would tell her it just so his younger self would trust her. Taccer 07 00:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing in the episode to suggest this one way or the other. I'll take it out. 23skidoo 18:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

What evidence is there that it's even the Doctor's name? Considering how the Doctor doesn't talk about the dead it would be just as much of a shock to him to hear Romana's name or Susan's because it might imply that River had met one of them.

Because one of the members of the archaeological expedition, the woman who fell victim to the vashta nerada, asked him what she'd said to him, and he explained that she'd told him his name. I've spoken with other fans, and it's been suggested that he and River might have been married or some sort of equivalent, due to his comment that there's only one time he would or could tell someone his name.

Could the Doctor maybe shout his name out during sexual intercourse? They might not have gotten married... Will101 17:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)





again, speculate and theorize in the Howling under Forums, please. --Stardizzy2 20:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC) == River Song, It's confusing yet easy to get.==

In the episodes she appeared in, she said things like the doctor looks so young and shes never seen him look so young before. But Matt Smith is younger than David Tennant so she must not have met him but she is scheduled to appear in series 5. Have I got it wrong or did the writers make a mistake because matt smith was'nt cast yet?

When she said he was young i believe she ment by the time he was in, like he was the 10th doctor, matt was the 11th doctor so probebly by 'time lord' age. The only problem I have is that why does she think they'd done the Crash of the Byzantium in Silence in the Library when he's clearly the 10th Doctor? but as it might be she may of done that to pull in the viewers so they know there is more to it and as it is, the new episode she was at the byzantium with the doctor, it may be a giant cliff hanger that keeps on hanging on to that will soon be revieled in the later series or the new doctor, it is very hard to understand but the directer has it all figured out just doesn't want us to figure it out...


 * River doesn't realize how young the Doctor is until she looks into his eyes and studies them for a few moments and although she has the images of all his faces the fact that he never turns up in the right order might mean that she doesn't actually know the order of his regenerations.Doorofnight 18:50, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

this theory is talked about so much i can't believe we can't get an explanation for it,

made 27th, april 2010 tuesday shaannoonn briggs! shannon briggs 1997 

autistic yet a doctor who fan since i've been born 1997 copy right (UTC) 78.151.113.213 15:05, April 27, 2010 (UTC) == To appear in 2010==

I feel it would be interesting to note that in Spring 2010 she returns. If you watch the trailer http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/ you see that she's in the episodes with the Weeping Angels and BBC News stated:

"The trailer also hints at the return of Alex Kingston as River Song - an archaeologist who had appeared to have had an intimate relationship with The Doctor. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8437562.stm

Actually, never mind - I see it's been added already. Sorry! 90.195.49.219 13:16, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

By the way, has anyone got any ideas about River Song's time period? As in "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead", it suggests that either River Song was born in the 51st century or it is her adoptive time period. Also this is partially authenticated by the fact she owns a Sonic Blaster and she may have bought one, or it could indeed be Captain Jack's. Also, the first episode she appears in in series 5, is rumoured to appear UNIT, meaning it is set in present day earth, meaning she may be from the 21st century, or the doctor may have met her in the 51st century and started travelling with her. ANY IDEAS :S





Why don't you just wait to see if there are any indications of her time period in her upcoming appearance? It was clear from her debut that we weren't getting the full story on her, and that we'd have to wait.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 18:38, March 6, 2010 (UTC)





Though, there are many who think River may be a time traveller/have big links to time travel herself so if that's true she wouldn't have a time period. ~Daniel 18:28, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

i am the only one who thinks amy pond is river song ? they have similar names, the handcuffs she pins tennant and smith with ? pretty obvious to me == River Song's Photo==

why doesn't her photo show her?? i tried to change the photo but someone changed it back

That's her... DuduDoctor 14:17, February 21, 2010 (UTC)



I really don't think so... it looks nothing like her. where did you find this picture? give me the source.



It's a screenshot from the Series 5 trailer. DuduDoctor 14:26, February 21, 2010 (UTC)



How do you know it's her though?



Well... That's her face, so... :PDuduDoctor 16:25, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have seen many filming pictures of the woman in the photo without the shades - it is River Song. Delton Menace 16:43, February 25, 2010 (UTC) == Biography==

In the middle of the third paragraph, the writing falls apart.

First, there's this sentence: "There was a suggestion that in the future the Doctor's personal future she would carry a similar journal, as she commenteted about needing to "compare" diaries." And then the rest of the section switches back and forth between past and present tense, often in the same sentence. --166.135.137.95 12:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

== Being a Time Agent ==

Time Agents were invented by Steven Moffat in The Doctor Dances and Empty Child, and River Song was created by Moffat in Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead. She is a Time Traveller from the 51st Century, so it fits! == "Stonehendge"?==

I'm sorry, but I'm rather shocked to see a spelling error like this not being mentioned on a locked page. Could someone who has the ability to do so change it to it's correct spelling of Stonehenge? Daydreamerdeluxe 21:51, April 24, 2010 (UTC) == Small Timeline Niggle==

A minor issue with the Timeline - we cannot be sure whether 'The Bone Meadows' occurs before or after 'The Asgard Picnic'86.25.179.64 01:17, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Possibly a Time Lord?
Could it be possible that River Song is infact a Time Lord or part Time Lord?

It could be possible yes, there is a reference in "Flesh and Stone" that she's a "complex being" formed in "time" (or something like that) ~Daniel 18:10, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I strongly suspect so...

1) She got a tardis lesson from someone other than the doctor - implying interaction with another timelord or her co-existing with Gallifrey.

question:could this be from Romana who is in espace? or a child of Romana, the only other time lord known to not be locked in the time war or dead (like the master?) It could also be a relation of Jenny (Doctor's daughter) but that would be creepy.

2) River said "Aren't we all...[Fairytales]" at the end of "Flesh & Stone". I think statements have been made before that since the Timewar lockdown the Time Lords are generally considered myths.


 * I agree that there is some strong evidence for River Song being a Time Lord(although that might just be what Moffat wants us to think) and if she is a Time Lady we have already met before my guess would be that it is Romana. Susan and Jenny are out because the relationship is wrong and the characterization of River, especially in relation to the Doctor, doesn't fit with the Rani's personality or interests. Of course, if it is yet another case of a Chameleon Arch then it could well be the Rani as well. The biggest red flag in this line of reasoning, although there are several ways to explain it away, is how the Doctor doesn't realize she is a Time Lady(again, assuming there isn't a Chameleon Arch being used). It certainly makes sense that if she doesn't have a Tardis herself that she is unable to travel through time like the Doctor, and Romana has shown interest in staying in one place and helping, and she was always a better Tardis piolet than the Doctor, and certainly would have the technical knowledge to make something to prevent herself from being identifiable as a Time Lord, but the open question is, why would she want to?Doorofnight 18:50, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

And it offers another interpretation as to why she's so hot on lots of timelord culture/tech. Although it does require explaining in terms of why the Doctor hasn't noticed she's a timelord (although Matt Smith does seem to roleplaying a slightly stupid doctor, so not too much explaining...)131.111.184.82 21:09, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

She'll meet the Doctor at least twice more
She'll meet him at least twice more, won't she? Once to start their journeys together and then a second time for him to give her his screwdriver. I'm thinking that it'll the the twelfth Doctor before she gets the screwdriver though, after all, the Eleventh Doctor has his own unique one, unless he chooses to build a special one. Mc hammark 08:59, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure she'll meet him a few more than that! We know she'll see him next "when the pandorica opens" though when that'll be, I'm not sure! ~Daniel 18:23, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Given that the cracks are this seasons "theme", and the Pandorica relates to them, it is logical to assume the opening of the Pandorica will take place at the end of the current season. Unhari 22:01, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

She is next featured in the finale involving the pandorica. She was seen filming with the Doctor and Amy at Stonehenge for the finale, and then seen with the running through Stonehenge in the trailer. Delton Menace 22:06, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * From events in her diary, there are at least five more meetings:


 * -The Opening of The Pandorica


 * -The Bone Meadows


 * -A Picnic at Asgard


 * -Visits The End of The Universe


 * -And their second-to-last-encounter, where he gives her a sonic screwdriver (and possibly shortly after his regeneration into his twelfth or thirteenth incarnations, as she refers to him having a "new suit") - A Visit to The Singing Towers of Darillium. Unhari 22:09, May 1, 2010 (UTC)"

It's been rumored that she'll appear as a companion with him next season, so we'll see. Obvously we know that the Opening of the Pandorica is going to happen, as it's a series-long arc. Musedae 15:19, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Amy Pond - River Song
After reading another message on this page, it seems likely to me that Amy Pond may be River Song, though I am not sure, there's a reference to handcuffs in the episode Flesh and Stone which links Amy Pond's first appearance in which she handcuffs the doctor, and at the end of Flesh and Stone when River says "You, me, handcuffs; does it always end this way?" ~Daniel 18:16, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a reference to the end of "Forest of the Dead" (when River died). River had handcuffs and when the Doctor asked her why she said "Spoilers..." DuduDoctor 10:29, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless Amy/River is a Time Lord it is unlikely that they are the same person since the series has it well established that bad things happen if a person touches a different version of themselves, the only people who can get around this are Time Lords. Doorofnight 20:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The actresses are too similar in age and too different in looks to be the same character. What I think though, is that River could be Amy's daughter. We know that Amy wouldn't end up with the Doctor, she's chosen Rory, so unless Rory dies, that ain't gonna happen. Mc hammark 12:29, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

River Killed a Man? (Matta_jr's theory)
Is no one else wondering who she killed. I personally think it may be the Doctor because she hints that he will be there when she kills this man and she also says he was something like 'the kindest(/best/good etc) man shed ever known). Does this sound plausable to anyone else? Perhaps thats what happens when the Pandorcia opens? Perhaps at the end of this series? Matta jr 21:49, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Matt Smith has already signed on for season 6, so he won't die at the end of the season. Secondly, River's statement that she learned to fly the TARDIS from "the best", but not the Doctor means that she may have killed this person. Just a theory.Unhari 21:58, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think that she does indicate that this man was the doctor, or prehaps another time lord

Do you really think she would be able to look the Doctor in the eye with the knowledge that she killed him? Furthermore that she is helping Father Octavian so she can be released early? Unhari 22:11, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

It seemed to be hinted pretty strongly that it is the Doctor that River's in prison for killing - but that doesn't mean that she actually does kill him, merely that it's preferable for people to believe that at the time. 22:28, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

She does know how to [permanently] kill a timelord (both hearts at the same time), which might suggest she has to means to kill the Doctor.

(She could also BE the Doctor, regenerating into her would figuratively "kill" the doctor. And would explain her knowledge of his name.)

I would say that it is strongly implied that the murder victim is the Doctor. Apart from River saying it was the "best man [she's] ever known," Octavian calls the victim "a hero to many" and tells the Doctor that he "really [doesn't] want to know" who it was. And the Doctor seems to draw the right conclusion from it, with his mention afterward about how timelines can be changed (which calls back to what he said in the previous episode about it still being possible for him to die even though he has a "future" with River). Clearly he's planning to try to prevent his own death. (Hopefully that works out better for him than the last time he tried it.) Also, in that Moffat interview linked from the main page, Moffat suggests that just as the Doctor knows how River's life ends, River might know how the Doctor's life ends. —Robotech Master 05:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

"the Doctor knows how River's life ends, River might know how the Doctor's life ends" I love this idea!! Very sureal!

Im not saying that River killed the Doctor out of spite (as Unhari seems to think im surgesting). Perhaps she had to kill him? And maybe she didn't completely kill him? She could have just caused him to regenerate ,but Octavian didnt know he could regenerate, and so thought he was dead. I think this would be a good story. Matta jr 13:00, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

That's a good point. Adeledie shot herself to preserve the timeline, so I supose it is theoretically possible that River had to kill one of the Doctor's incarnations to preserve the timeline. This could also explain how before she left for the library, the Doctor turned up in "A new suit", which could imply a recent regeneration. Unhari 14:42, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think this is what we are meant to think. I don't think River kills the Doctor, but 'they' want us to think that. Fan555 14:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

On the supposition that she does "kill" a given incarnation of the Doctor, one can determine by simple logic that she already has to know, in some fashion at some given point, about his regenerative qualities, and thus that she doesn't/didn't truly end his life, because she in fact sends the message that he receives at the (current, storywise) end of her own life. They're in the 51st century, home to Captain Jack Harkness; it's not outrageous to postulate that Octavian could've thought him the greatest Time Agent of them all, while simultaneously not knowing anything about the Time Lords of Gallifrey. --ChrisK 10:19, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. My own belief is that River does indeed kill the Doctor, but just one of his incarnations. I don't think the "best man she ever knew" could be anyone but the Doctor. It's certainly possible that she might be put in prison for this if no one knew of the Doctor's ability to regenerate. Bluebox444 10:50, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

And the Tenth Doctor said to River that there was only one time when he could tell someone his name. So there must be something that happens to the Doctor only once. It can't be when he regenerates, because there's more than one time he can do that, but you can only die once, can't you. Mc hammark 13:39, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

It is hinted that the time he reveals his name is when he marries River. Unhari 22:46, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ah Ah Ah! I disagree with your statement, Unhari. It is hinted that he reveals his name to River at a very, very important moment for him. We've already seen that he's been married several times, ("Got married, bit of a mistake..."). You can be married multiple times, you can only die once, as Mchammark stated. We'll see what happens in the future (or the past), obviously, since we've already been informed that she'll be appearing when the Pandorica opens (she remembers it well). Musedae 15:17, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

That is, unless she falls into a rift, erasing her presence from history and we never see her again.

at the beginning of "The Time Of The Angels" the Bishop(however you spell it) told river to not let the doctor work out who she is and what she has done otherwise he wouldnt want to help him and this and a few other hints indicate that SHE KILLED HIM

If Amy Pond is River Song then she does kill the doctor in Amy's Choice

River was married to The Doctor
On this past weekend episode (The Time of Angels) didn't Amy Pond ask River if she were married to the Doctor in their future (51st century ?)  Amy was questioning why River knew so much about the Doctor.

River did not deny or confirm the answer and only told Amy that she was "really good, you are really good" for figuring things out.

Monster Files - possible hint?
Any chance the Monster Files are providing a hint as to the true nature of River Song? Has anyone else noticed that the writing in the diary and the way all the art is drawn is designed exactly the same as the Doctor's "Journal of Impossible Things" when he was human in Human Nature/Family of Blood? Perhaps it isn't her journal at all...

96.56.228.202 12:24, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

i was just thinking the same thing :/, maybe it is the journel...but it is doubtful at this point to speculate on such things Ooiue 06:24, May 21, 2010 (UTC)