Howling:River / Rory

One thing is intriguing me. It is confirmed that River Song will appear in Series 6. and Rory is now travelling with the doctor along with Amy. So Rory and River are supposed to meet. Moreover, River told the doctor in the end of "The Big Bang" that soon he will find out who she is, so what happens in series 6 already happened in River's timeline. So why didnt she recognize Rory when she saw him in "Pandorica Opens"? Does this mean that Rory won't last during all the series? but he's Amy's husband so the only way he will leave her is that he dies.. Would Moffat kill him again?

P.S. Please no one starts talking about River being Amy or Rose or whatever.. River is River she's a new character..63.216.116.9 19:10, July 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, we don't know how long or how many adventures River had after the universe was reset but before she visited Amy's wedding. Her timeline could easily be:
 * 1) Pre-Pandorica events
 * 2) Pandorica Opens (not knowing Rory but meeting him)
 * 3) Resetting of universe and series 6 events (she would now know Rory)
 * 4) Crash of the Byzantium
 * 5) Picnick/Singing towers/Library etc.

Also, it could just as easily be that Rory leaves the TARDIS and visits family etc... The Thirteenth Doctor 19:28, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

Your timeline part doesn't answer the question at all: as what you labelled "pre-Pandorica events" is going to happen very soon according to what 63 said. --222.166.181.144 19:37, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

Please quote your source, I highly doubt we know she had 30 adventures with the Doctor before she visited the wedding...especially when she said the Doctor doesn't know her yet before launching him into the exploding TARDIS and the fact that she needed the Vortex Manipulator to leave afterward...I'm so sick and tired of people like you who just keep speculating and assume things without supports. --[[Special:Contributions/203.168.176.42|203.168.176.42 20:16, July 31, 2010 (UTC)]]
 * It makes perfect sense. All we know is that the River at the wedding had already lived the series 6 events. We don't know when or where River came from. For all we know she had 30 adventures with the Doctor before she visited the wedding. The Thirteenth Doctor 19:42, July 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is the howling. We're allowed to speculate here... that's the whole point of it. If you're sick and tired of speculation then go to one of the other forums.
 * I never said she did have 30 adventures. Both times I have made sure not to say that anything is definite; "Her timeline could easily be" and "For all we know". And yes, the Doctor wouldn't know her yet, in his timeline... they meet at different points where each knows a certain amount of information about the other. The Thirteenth Doctor 20:18, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * There are speculations that are helpful because they are based on what we know...and there are speculations that are not helpful because they contradict what we know:
 * The Doctor doesn't exist following Big Bang 2
 * River's blue book was blank because the Doctor never existed
 * River's blue book was blank when she gave it to Amy
 * according to your timeline, River's adventure with the Doctor happened during the time when the Doctor didn't exist...how does it make perfect sense? Stop throwing in random comments without thoughts --203.168.176.42 21:09, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * according to your timeline, River's adventure with the Doctor happened during the time when the Doctor didn't exist...how does it make perfect sense? Stop throwing in random comments without thoughts --203.168.176.42 21:09, July 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, that's right, the Doctor could never ever travel back in time to when he didn't exist could he? That's ridiculous. He'd need a time machine for that, wouldn't he? Trust me. I have thought it through. You obviously haven't.
 * Are you saying that the Doctor, after he returned, couldn't go back in time, meet River who had just experienced the big bang 2, have several adventures with her, then drop her off at the wedding? That's impossible is it? --The Thirteenth Doctor 21:13, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

During the series 5 finale Rory had been sucked into the crack, so he never existed. Since he never existed he couldn't be in series 6 so River never met him. Now that Rory exists again, an alternate timeline has been created where River would recognize Rory.Icecreamdif 00:24, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Thirteenth, the thing is not that he could or couldn't drop her off at the wedding...the thing is how could he drop off a River with a blank blue book at the wedding? The River with a blank book is on a timeline without the Doctor. The River that arrived in the wedding comes from a timeline without the Doctor so how could she have your "30 adventures with the Doctor"? If she's dropped off by the Doctor, then her books need to be filled. Can you just think before you type? --222.166.181.146 05:22, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

The basic thing the thread starter is saying is that it is a problem, having series 6 (pre-Pandorica Opens) River meet Rory because she has no idea who he is in thes series 5 finale, she hadn't met him before. Rory would need to be absent during any points of series 6 featuring pre-Pandorica Opens River. River at the end of The Big Bang noted that the next time the Doctor will meet her, he learns who she is, as she already experienced whatever that event was. This will be in series 6, the series that reveals River's story and identity.

But because Rory is in series 6, pre-Pandorica River musn't meet him. However, as they say, time can be rewritten. Maybe she ends up meetng hi earler than we originally saw because of rewritting time. Delton Menace 06:23, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Delton Menace, we all understand it...you're moving our discussion backward...the only point you are proposing has just been proposed by Icecreamdif already...can't you people bloody read before posting? --222.166.181.38 07:37, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

222, River said everyone goes back to where they belong. For her it would be in the future. In the future, the Doctor did exist as Amy had brought him back by then. Then River could have the adventures with the Doctor, before he drops her off at the wedding to a time his past self didn't exist and the writing disappears, much like with the photograph in Back to the Future, or Amy in City of the Daleks. It's simple time travel really. The Thirteenth Doctor 14:10, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

You oversimplified it way too much:
 * 1) The Blue Book records the Doctor's adventures in the past and the future
 * 2) River stated explicitely that following Big Bang 2 the Doctor would be on the other side of the crack and he would never have existed


 * The Doctor didn't exist until he was remembered by Amy in the wedding...so before then, there is no future Doctor that could bring River Song to the wedding...
 * If the Doctor does exist in the future, then the blue book should record all the future adventures of the Doctor and only the past adventures should be gone...
 * Moreover, do you know how irrational it is to suggest a non-existing Doctor could pop up in the past to cause himself into existence? If such were the case and a non-existing future Doctor simply dropped off River Song at Amy's wedding with a non-existing TARDIS...then shouldn't he just have shown up at the wedding...Amy will definitely remember him if just pops up for a brief second then leave....
 * I fail to see how this ties in with the City of Daleks, as it's stated explicitly that Amy was protected by the TARDIS in City of the Daleks...and the TARDIS is gone in the Big Bang.--203.168.176.42 15:25, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * The TARDIS was protecting her, yes, but couldn't protect her forever. It's the same paradox as the book. At that point in time, Amy came from a time where she didn't exist. She began to fade. The book would fade because it was going back to a timeline where the Doctor didn't exist.
 * This is all to do with multiple timelines. Before Amy remembered him, it was a straight timeline where the Doctor didn't exist. When she remembered him another timeline was caused to go off at a tangent from the first, one in which the Doctor existed. In the timeline where he existed, it is simple enough to return back to a time in the timeline where he hadn't. It's simple time travel. --The Thirteenth Doctor 17:37, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * God...just how thick can people get? You failed to explain anything, you are just repeating your flawed argument over and over again:
 * You acknowledge that it was the TARDIS that protected Amy...and you go on to assume that the same thing would happen without the TARDIS?
 * Why would the book fade? You are not making any sense.
 * I'm asking why all of the texts are gone if River is bought to the wedding by a future Doctor? Part of the texts record the adventures of future Doctor.
 * Right now, according to your argument, River Song would just be there for the sake of it...Your non-existing future Doctor could materialize in the current timeline...the book and River Song are just there for no reason...they would be the most ineffective/inefficient method of reminding Amy when he could materialize right in front of Amy's eyes at any point before he comes into existence to remind her...


 * Are you saying that a non-existing Doctor comes from a timeline that doesn't exist and brings himself into existence by by bringing a physical existing person to a different time in the existing timeline to bring himself into existence? You can bring anything into existence if you think that is logical. --222.166.181.136 17:56, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * It does make sense. And it is possible. Did you watch the Big Bang? The Future Doctor came from a timeline when he was released, but only by him coming back it was that he was released. It's a paradox.
 * And as the Doctor received River's diary and gave it back to her, he would have made sure that it was her to make Amy remember, not his future self. If he reminded Amy, even though in his own past he knew it was River that reminded her, it would cause a paradox. The Doctor tries as hard as possible to keep timelines intact and not to cause paradoxes.
 * As for the whole Amy/protecting thing, forget the fact the TARDIS was protecting her (and by that I don't mean "pretend it wasn't" I mean that it is not important). The point I originally made was that Amy came from a timeline that, because of the course that timeline was on, her own timeline didn't exist any more, so she began to fade. The same would happen to the book. If the book went back to a time when the timeline was on the course for the Doctor never existing, it would begin to fade as well, removing all the writing. Then, when Amy remembered, causing the course of the timeline to go off at a tangent creating a timeline where the Doctor does exist, it would return, as then it's future would exist again, just as happened to Amy in the City of the Daleks. --The Thirteenth Doctor 18:12, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * In the Big Bant, an existing Doctor from the future came to the past to release a past existing Doctor...How is that even relevant to what you were saying? You are talking about a non-existing character bringing himself into existence by physically influencing existing things as if he exists
 * You said the doctor caused a paradox in the first paragraph and said he tries as hard as possible not to cause paradoxes...Can you read through what you've typed first? There is no reason to associate a case where the Doctor time travelled to another instance to a case where a non-existing Doctor physically appearing and playing around the Universe to bring himself into existence...
 * According to you, shouldn't almost every impossible object, scenario, entity be possible to suddenly come into existence?
 * As for Amy...HUH?!? What happened? Did you fell down from your chair and have your brain damaged while typing that?
 * The Doctor said Amy existed ONLY because the TARDIS protected her
 * You acknowledge that it's true...and then you go on to say it's not important...and just ignored it....
 * How exactly can you get the conclusion that "Amy was existing ONLY because the TARDIS was protecting her" can essentially be simplified to "Amy was existing"...You are saying the only reason for her existence is not important and that in a situation where there is no such reason the same thing would happen for no reason?????
 * You are essentially saying we know A + B = C, we can forget B for now because there is no B here, and we'll label B "not important" which means we can ignore it...and now A = C just because....--222.166.181.61 18:37, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is it really that hard to grasp the concept? City of Daleks and the case you discussed are not just different, they are the polar opposite of each other...one is a scenario where the time traveller is protected and other where the time traveller isn't protected...you can't fit pieces of the timeline where the time traveller isn't protected onto one where the time traveller is protected and saying the protection is both crucial and not important....


 * Look. If you don't understand the concept of time travel and paradoxes, I suggest you read up on them. I'll draw you a diagram if that helps.
 * As for the "every impossible object, scenario, entity be possible to suddenly come into existence", no, they didn't exist in the first place. The Doctor did which is why Amy had memories of him.
 * You're not understanding what I'm getting at with Amy. Had the TARDIS not protected her, she would not have existed, yes? Why? Because she was on a timline where the future that she came from did not exist. The same theory works with the book.
 * The Book (like Amy) was on a timeline (let's call it timeline X) where the future was missing the Doctor (like the Humans not existing in CotD). Amy remembered the Doctor (like the Doctor fixed the timeline in COTD) which returned the timeline to the real one (timeline Y) and the future of the book existed (like the Humans then existed in CotD) so the writing returned (Amy was no longer going to not exist). Does that help you?
 * And this is the last time I'm going to ask you to stop insulting. If you do so again, I'm going to ask for you to be blocked. --The Thirteenth Doctor 18:51, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't just type things for no reason, can you re-read this: "Had the TARDIS not protected her, she would not have existed, yes? Why? Because she was on a timline where the future that she came from did not exist. The same theory works with the book."...and then your argument goes on to ignore the TARDIS...The premise you said is that "Had the TARDIS not protected her, she would not have existed, yes?"...and now the TARDIS does not protect the Doctor...you can't ignore the premise and say the method worked with the premise...so we can apply the same method in a situation where such premise doesn't exist...
 * You still failed to explain how a Doctor on timeline Y exist on timeline X...it has nothing to do with CotD in that
 * You said the Doctor in TBB is equal to the humans in COTD, the humans in COTD are all gone, so should the Doctor then. There is no future Doctor travelling with River Song according to your model. What you are saying is the opposite of what you originally proposed.
 * COTD's plot involves a TARDIS-protected Amy, as opposed to non-TARDIS-protected humans...as your model says and what you've been saying up to this point, the Doctor in TBB is the non-TARDIS-protected humans...
 * It wasn't simply "Amy remembered the Doctor", it's "Amy remembered the Doctor due to the Doctor's physical manipulations", which you have already forbid by saying that the Doctor no longer exists like the other humans in COTD.
 * The texts would not have returned according to your model because there would be no Doctor.
 * Your timeline is still ignoring the TARDIS, what you keep missing is the bloody TARDIS part...In your Amy example, you clearly said Amy would not have existed if the TARDIS had not protected her...then how do you come up with the conclusion that a future non-existing entity not protected by TARDIS exists in the future?
 * --222.166.181.18 19:28, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Y and X timelines are like a fork on the road, one way is Y, the other X, if you choose to go down X, you can go back change the direction you take and go down pathway Y. In the same way, if you go down pathway Y you can go back and make someone else also choose pathway Y instead of pathway X.
 * And I'm drawing you a diagram since you can't understand the time travel aspect of it. --The Thirteenth Doctor 19:37, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thirteenth, can you just stop ignoring the part about the TARDIS? You acknowledge that the TARDIS is the reason Amy exists...and then keep ignoring it everytime it's brought up...and you're ignoring everything else that's brought up and keep on talking about the model without the flaws...this is very tiring. --222.166.181.101 19:55, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * And no, it's not the time travel aspect that's problematic...it's the fact that you've still failed to provide your rationale for a non-existing Doctor physically influencing the current timeline and keeps on referring to a case that explicitly forbids what you propose...the humans who are not protected by the TARDIS didn't go back to the past to influence the timeline like you've said...Amy did...and Amy is protected by the TARDIS....Your analogy is completely invalid...In your two arguments, your conclusion either comes from the middle of nowhere or you based your argument on a rejected premise that you explicitly state you know is invalid--203.168.176.42 20:07, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * And no, it's not the time travel aspect that's problematic...it's the fact that you've still failed to provide your rationale for a non-existing Doctor physically influencing the current timeline and keeps on referring to a case that explicitly forbids what you propose...the humans who are not protected by the TARDIS didn't go back to the past to influence the timeline like you've said...Amy did...and Amy is protected by the TARDIS....Your analogy is completely invalid...In your two arguments, your conclusion either comes from the middle of nowhere or you based your argument on a rejected premise that you explicitly state you know is invalid--203.168.176.42 20:07, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you'd waited for my diagram, then you'd have had it explained. The TARDIS can protect the Doctor as well. Why not? It's psychic link to the Doctor is most probably stronger than the one with Amy. Anyway, the diagram is here. Hopefully that'll explain it to you. Oh, and if you'd like to make a list of things I'm ignoring, there's so many you keep bringing up and I keep correcting. --The Thirteenth Doctor 20:02, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * GREAT TIMELINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a perfect reflection of your intelligence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * In your diagram, where does your River in 4 comes from? River is already in 3 before any instance in 2....There are 2 potential Rivers from 2 alternative timelines on your top timeline until 5.
 * This diagram contradicts with your original idea that you can just "forget the fact the TARDIS was protecting her"
 * Where does the TARDIS in 4 comes from? TARDIS is already destroyed or no longer exists following 1, how does it offer protection in 4? This is the opposite of COTD where the TARDIS protected Amy, in here, the TARDIS is gone in 1.
 * Your diagram falls apart at 2 since there is no such TARDIS...
 * The book is not on a timeline where its future would not exist if you were trying to say that the timeline is supposingly led toward the bottom timeline...the book could only have no texts if it didn't come from the bottom timeline or led to a timeline different from the bottom one.
 * The alternative timeline in COTD exists because the TARDIS protected Amy...The TARDIS is gone in TBB, you can't just deliberately say the TARDIS is here or ignore the TARDIS's effects/consequences for no apparent reason. TARDIS: no explosion (1). No TARDIS: no bottom timeline. --222.166.181.151 20:37, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * The alternative timeline in COTD exists because the TARDIS protected Amy...The TARDIS is gone in TBB, you can't just deliberately say the TARDIS is here or ignore the TARDIS's effects/consequences for no apparent reason. TARDIS: no explosion (1). No TARDIS: no bottom timeline. --222.166.181.151 20:37, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Look, you obviously can't understand it, and you obviously don't even want to, so I'm not going to bother any more. The theory is sound. --The Thirteenth Doctor 20:41, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * You still failed to answer anything about the TARDIS and you keep saying you will answer it...This is stupid...Your diagram falls apart since the very beginning because your TARDIS exists and doesn't exist at the same time....and you try to fit it into a case so completely different that it's explicitly stated your scenario can't exist....That's the way to go! Abandon all rationality...We should have some sort of Hall of Fame with a corner specifically dedicated to you. EVERYTHING will forever exists because out of an infinite amount of non-existing timelines, something will guarantee to bring them into existence in your model...You essentially removed the restriction of TARDIS' protection since your TARDIS, for whatever odd reason, has a continued existence even after it has been destroyed or negated....--222.166.181.173 20:57, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Umm.. i can see the discussion is getting a little too tense. Thirteenth thanks for starting a new thread about your discussion. Both you and 222 are discussing one answer about the original question, and expanded it to the laws of time travel, which is worth the new thread. Going back to the topic of this thread, and regardless of which of you is right, i dont think in this case the explanation is River living series 6 between the reset and the doctor coming back. I'll go now to the other thread to give my humble opinion :) but please guys we are here to discuss different opinions.. so no need for being rude or undermining others' opinions even if we dont agree with them! 63.216.120.87 22:14, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell, do you still not understand time travel? After the Doctor and the TARDIS are brought back' (ie they exist) they pick up River in the future, bring her back to the wedding, the writing in the book fades because it's future doesn't exist any more in that time-line, Amy remembers and brings back the Doctor and TARDIS who then go to the future to pick up River and the cycle starts again. It's so simple. You know, you're the only one who is complaining. I'm gonna start another forum and see if anyone else really thinks like you. The Thirteenth Doctor 21:05, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now the book shouldn't fade...because it's at a point where both it's future and past are on a timeline where the Doctor's adventure are guaranteed to exist...neither is this timeline what's depicted on screen. This is not time travel neither...this is something that doesn't exist on a timeline physically bringing itself into existence. You're using cases where a physically existing Doctor travelled to a past point to ensure the timeline travels toward 1 direction to explain a case where the Doctor never existed and just magically shows up to influence events to create his existence...What you saying is that if Amy faded in CotD and the Doctor failed, a Doctor from a timeline where he is successful would magically show up this timeline and things would still work that way....--222.166.181.132 21:19, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * My other suggestion was that Rory simply visits family when the Doctor and Amy meet River. --The Thirteenth Doctor 22:20, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

It could be because when River saw auton Rory for the first time, Rory was already absorbed by the cracks and brought out of existence.. even Amy when she saw him she didnt recognize him so why would River? But after Big Bang 2 everything is back to it's place and Rory is back into existence.. That's why she didnt recognize him in the PO.. Unless in series 6 we find out that River is somehow immune to the cracks like the doctor (she did show up in Amy's wedding so she somehow remembered the doctor. how?)94.187.77.178 11:43, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

It's simple really. Provided that River Song is the same version from pre-Big Bang 2, then she would simply know who he is and everything that will happen to him, as she does with The Doctor. Knowing what will happen, she knows he mustn't say or give anything away, again - like The Doctor. But only if she *is* the same version of herself before Big Bang 2.

Ignoring everything except the very first paragraph of this thread, I also do not understand why River seems to keep forgetting that Rory is her father. From Let's Kill Hitler, we learn that she can regenerate and it is not unreasonable to assume she may have other time lord qualities, like remembering alternate time lines. But in the Pandorica Opens, she does not recognize Rory in the picture found in Amy's bedroom. I understand the arguement about Rory never existing at that moment (because he passed into the crack in time) but River is a complicated time traveller. The second time is near the beginning of A Good Man Goes to War. Rory goes to recruit River, and she looks at him as if it is the first time knowingly meeting her father - and knowing but regretting that she cannot mention it yet. Maybe it is a stretch to interpret her emotions in this scene, but that is how I see it. So - in Big Bang 2, how does she know to show up at Amy and Rory's wedding - know to give the blank diary to Rory, all the while not knowing who Rory is? (I will leave it to another thread to discuss why River exists at all in a universe in which there is no Doctor)ANone 06:04, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

She can exist in a universe where there is no Doctor for the same reason that Amy can exist in a world without her parents. She forgot about Rory for the same reason that Amy remembered the clerics but forgot about Rory. As her father, Rory is an important part of River's life, so he is more easily forgotten.Icecreamdif 15:45, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I just came into this thread and was going to say the same thing. River didn't remember Rory for the same reason Amy didn't remember Rory. However before Rory was erased they both remembered him and after he was restored they both remembered him, it isn't exactly hard to get. The Light6 07:14, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. I need to think awhile longer on icecreamdif's answer regarding Amy. My orignal thought on River in a universe without the doctor had gone like this: River could not exist in a universe that did not ever have the Doctor, because, as she only exists in her present form as a result of regeneration, if there is no Doctor, then Melody could not be conceived on the Tardis (with her "time head"), so she could not have DNA that is part Time Lord, so she cannot regenerate into River Song. But icecreamdif has a possible arguement that if Amy can exist after her parents fell thru the crack then I can see her trying to extend that arguement to hold even after Big Bang 2 which reset the universe. But after Big Bang 2 Amy's parents came back so that she could exist in the new universe. Not sure just because Amy continues to exist in the old version of the universe after her parents fall into the crack, that it applies to the new universe.

Okay - having read thru this, I now understand that the Pandorica held the information of the original universe which included River - so icecreamdif is absolutely correct - River can exist after Big Bang 2 without the Doctor present.

But back to my main problem. Amy is only human yet she still remembered Rory again just before he shot her. As to River, I think my arguement is, and sorry in advance if I am just repeating myself, if River is a complicated time traveller who can exist in various time streams with her memory intact, she should be able to remember Rory is her father - at least remember him after seeing him in the picture in Amy's room at the end of The Pandorica Opens. The Doctor had no problem remembering Rory (albeit a comical rememberance).--ANone 17:02, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

The Doctor can remember Rory for the same reason that Amy can remember the clerics. The Doctor is a time traveller, and Rory iss not an important part of his life. The Doctor llikes Rory, and they've travelled together, but ultimately they've only known each other for less than anothher year. Riverr, on the other hand is Rory's dauhgter, so he is an important part of her life, thus making it easier for her to forgeet him. Also, keep in mind, Amy didn't recognize Rory as soon as she saw him. Even after he saved her lfie she didn't recognize him. He had to actively try to get her to remember him. River basically saw him as somebody who Amy had once known who the Nestene had created a duplicate of. If Amy, Rory, or the Doctor had known that River was Rory's daughter at ttha point, they probably would have put more effort into jogging her memory.Icecreamdif 20:14, September 9, 2011 (UTC)