Forum:Temporary forums/Meta-Crisis Doctor

Opening post
The exact name of the Tenth Doctor's hand's new body person thing was never clear to be begin with, but over the years, it seems that his name is near unaminously accepted as the "Meta-Crisis Doctor", but his page hasn't been renamed to that name. In part, I feel this is because of the... talk page "dicussions" about it which often lead into vast arguments over continuity and was eventually resolved by @Shambala108 who took a neutral stance and named the character's page Tenth Doctor (Journey's End). However, I feel this could be improved.

So I suggest we definitively rename the article to Meta-Crisis Doctor (not, mind you, Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor which is rarely used and is much clunkier), rename Category:Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor images and Category:Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor stories to Category:Meta-Crisis Doctor images and Category:Meta-Crisis Doctor stories, and rename Theory:Timeline - Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor to Theory:Timeline - Meta-Crisis Doctor.

I want to approach this rename from a two pronged angle, with two new good reasons.


 * 1) The name "Meta-Crisis Doctor" has been used in valid sources, those being PROSE: Citation Needed. (The version of the ebook I'm working with renders it as "metacrisis Doctor" but I think that is a transcribing issue.)
 * 2) The "Fugitive Doctor" precedent allows us to name articles a certain name — without a conjecture tag — if both the official marketing and fans use the name. This was a codification of the standard indirectly set up by T:ROMANA and has since been applied to Unbound Doctor and 9.5th Doctor.
 * To support the second prong, I will support evidence of its use: here, here, here, here, here, and, well, I could go on and on. As for fans... just Google "Meta-Crisis Doctor", it pulls over 23,000,000 results. If that's not widely used, I don't know what is. If that's not enough for you... see on Twitter, if you search "Meta-Crisis Doctor", lots results from both official sources and fans. 15:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion
I support this proposal to move the article to Meta-Crisis Doctor. I was honestly shocked this wasn't already the case when I discovered what we were calling his article, because it's such a strange title. Pluto2 ☎ 15:51, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I Support this 100% Time God Eon ☎  16:07, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm baffled as to why it isn't already "Meta-Crisis Doctor". Full agreement from me. Fractal Doctor ☎  16:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I support this. In cases like this, we should use the name that users would instinctively search for. Meta-Crisis Doctor is just the best term for the story. OS25🤙☎️ 16:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I support the move to Meta-Crisis Doctor. MrThermomanPreacher ☎  17:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Can you give the specifics of how Citation Needed refers to him like so? I also note that I'm pretty sure the Fugitive Doctor standard doesn't apply, because he has a name, it's just one fans hate. Najawin ☎  19:21, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Complete support. The only detractor from the name I would be able to think of would be if another Meta-Crisis Doctor along the line (even though I think those chances are slim). Danniesen ☎  21:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Actually Najawin, the issue is he has three names. Corin, Josh Smith, and the Doctor in contradicting stories. Finding a name appropriate from his origin story is simply the best resolution when keeping T:NPOV in mind. OS25🤙☎️ 22:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Absolutely support. If there's ever another metacritical incarnation, we can deal with it then. No point making out current coverage worse for stuff that doesn't exist yet, and may never. Additionally, any in-universe name this incarnation takes, such as "Corin" or "John Smith", is not what a reader will search for, and we can't choose one over the other per T:NPOV. Cousin Ettolrhc ☎  23:08, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh, huh, first I heard about Josh Smith. Yeah, that's also an issue. But still, Fugitive doesn't seem to be an applicable standard. (I just want to make sure the context from Citation Needed is appropriate. If it is, I'm all aboard.) Najawin ☎  00:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "TWELFTH BODY: See " Metacrisis, numerical confusion of "."

- Encyclopedia Gallifreya


 * I believe this is the quote in question. Time God Eon ☎  00:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * If that's all there is, I'm absolutely against this proposal. Najawin ☎  00:46, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I am not sure what you mean about the Fugitive Doctor precedent not applying. AFAIK, "Meta-Crisis Doctor" is the only name used outside of "the Doctor" which all Doctors are called anyway. 00:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * the same "Metacrisis, numerical confusion of:" gets used again in relation to Twelve and Thirteen not matching their numbers, but that's all that's mentioned in Citation Needed. Time God Eon ☎  00:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I am in support of this name. While I do not believe that the use of Citation Needed is particularly compelling, I do believe that the use of it on the official Instagram is more than sufficient --particularly in conjunction with its overwhelming use in fandom and the fact that the prefix of "Meta-Crisis" is aggressively in-universe. We have been handed an intuitive, clean, accurate, and frequently-used-in-fandom name by the official license holders. It would be foolish not to use it. All other naming options (e.g., Tenth Doctor (Journey's End), Corin, or John Smith) are either inaccurate, contradicted in a good deal of sources, or too vague. This name is accurate in ALL sources and is used pretty much universally within fandom. Let us not look a gift horse in the mouth. I bombastically support this proposal. NoNotTheMemes ☎  00:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * That's about my thoughts as well and while I am in certainly favor of the proposed change, I believe that even if we don't change the page to Meta-Crisis Doctor, it probably shouldn't call him the Tenth Doctor since he's never actually called that to my knowledge. and is in fact called out at times as being not-tenth. So I think that as a plan B, we could go with The Doctor (Journey's End) instead, as at least it's more consistent with what he actually called. Time God Eon ☎  01:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I am going to go against the grain and say I am against this for reasons highlighted by Najawin and one with in the talk page for said Doctor. Eon has made an alternative suggestion that I am all for however that of the Doctor (Journey’s End) which I am fully behind. Anastasia Cousins ☎  09:42, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I support this. SherlockTheII ☎  11:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I support this and agree with NoNotTheMemes above. 66 Seconds ☎  12:29, 19 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Far more important to me than in-universe precedent is the fact that "Meta-Crisis Doctor" is the official name used by the BBC and widely in fandom. This is common sense. – n8 (☎) 19:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I support on common sense grounds as well. I agree that the Citation Needed justification is pretty weak, but the overwhelming use of the name, partnered with the contradictory in-universe names, makes Meta-Crisis the best name, in my opinion. Schreibenheimer ☎  19:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I completely support the renaming of this page. There really should be no excuse to make pages harder to find for no real reason. And as you said now with the Fugitive Doctor and War Doctors, this rename makes the most sense. StevieGLiverpool ☎  11:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Conclusion
No sense in drawing this out.

To begin with, I think it's been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tenth Doctor (Journey's End) is a suboptimal name; The Doctor (Journey's End), if we wanted a wholly neutral name, would already be superior.

But moreover, there is broad support for applying the Fugitive Doctor precedent and naming this page Meta-Crisis Doctor, in line with BBC marketing and common fan parlance. The conflict between various sources on whether he adopted the name "John Smith", "Corin" or simply "the Doctor", with none of them clearly beating the others in terms of breadth of usage, means we really can't use any of these names, and should go back to his original, non-controversial appearance, where he is just "the Doctor", and is defined in terms of the Meta-Crisis. It's simply the best, most neutral non-dabbed name for this page. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)