Talk:The End of Time (TV story)/Archive 1

For Reference
Sources for everyone are here, I may copy them over later when I have time if no one else does. --Golden Monkey 20:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Two Episodes, One Title
While multiple episodes of the old series often carried a single title, the new series has provided a separate title for each episode. Over at Life, Doctor Who & Combom he posted a rumor that the episode title for 4.17 will be Nightmares Reign and that 4.18 will be The End of Time. [Source]

The End of Time
The End of Time is not necessarily the title, it is just a tag line, the title in unconfirmed. Remember the end of Journey's End - trailer for The Next Doctor, which had a tag line "The Return of the Cybermen", this is exactly the same. Whoniverse93 23:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Since information is now available regarding the specials, we need an article, so giving it a title is as good as any, but it needs some sort of disclaimer that this may not be the official title. I will add one. 23skidoo 19:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Title
DWM 412 has confirmed The End of Time as the title of the final episode, at least. 23skidoo 21:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the title, would anyone object If I link Part 1 to this page? Bigshowbower 07:38, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see the harm, since we don't yet have confirmation what the title of Part 1 is, but we do know it's going to be a "Part 1" so the whole discussion should be kept to one article, at least until we know enough to split things up. 23skidoo 23:52, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

The Brigadier?
It says on the page about the Brigadier that it has been "confirmed" he is appearing in this episode. If this is true then his name needs adding to the characters list.


 * There was no citation/source regarding his appearance so its highly unlikely if it was true and remember to sign your posts as well Bigshowbower 00:40, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

Suggest move to The End of Time
I know that, generally speaking, the first episode/book/comic, etc to use a title gets the undisambiguated version of the title. In this case, The End of Time takes us to the Darksmith Legacy novella which was published just today. However, The End of Time is a major milestone in the franchise, and will be getting a lot of attention. As a result a lot of people will be looking for it, and end up sidetracked by the book article. And lots of people will be linking to "The End of Time" in various articles, without knowing or thinking to add "(TV story)". I foresee a mess. For this reason, I would like to recommend that the two articles switch places, that the TV episode article become the main, undisambiguated The End of Time, while the novella be moved to The End of Time (book) or The End of Time (novel). Thoughts? 23skidoo 13:48, September 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * There shouldn't be any issues with in going ahead with this. (Though probably novel rather than book or novella for the Darksmith novel). --Tangerineduel 15:40, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've created a disambig page at The End of Time which links off to The End of Time (novel) and The End of Time (TV story).

Harriet Jones?
how can she be still alive after being extermionated by the daleks? Sclera1 22:39, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

It could be a flashback of her before she was exterminated. Dalig Ulv Stranden 11:23, October 10, 2009 (GMT)
 * Also, there's been plenty of speculation as to whether she actually died since she didn't die on camera. And besides, if a certain villain can come back after being cremated by the Doctor... 23skidoo 21:51, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also no one knows she died because the Daleks where told to destroy the Subwave network and if Harriet Jones got shot how did the screen go blank at the same time, It can't have because the Daleks obviously destroyed the subwave network and then we don't know what happened to Harriet Jones therefore she could still be alive. Michael Downey 23:49, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * We didn't actually see her die did we, considering the fact that she has had such a big role in Doctor Who if she really was killed I think they would have shown it. That would have been quite an iconic moment.

Source needed for Matt Smith
I just got a note on my talk page from a newbie who is convinced Smith won't appear in End of Time and the regeneration will happen in season 5. Although I'm taking that with a grain of salt, we should have a source cited for Matt Smith appearing in the episode as the Eleventh Doctor. Has this actually been confirmed by anyone, or is it just supposition. If it's just supposition then technically we can't list him yet, because we don't know that he'll actually appear. For all we know it could end the way Stolen Earth ended, mid-regeneration, with Smith appearing on camera for the first time in the following episode. Odds are one of the sources already used for this will suffice, but if one user is of the opinion he doesn't appear, there will be others. 23skidoo 21:51, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

I've said this for the airdate, but David Tennant did an interview for the Graham Norton Show which was broadcast 9th November 2009. Basically when questioned iwhat it was like been on set with Smith, Tennant acted very uneasy, saying more or less, 'If I say I was on set with Matt, it could give alot of the story away, and I'm not aloud to do that.' From here Graham Norton presumed they had been on set together and said 'So we see you and Matt together?' To which Tennant replied 'Not together on screen.' I'm sorry for any misquotes. I've slept since the interview was broadcast. I'm sure the interview will be available either on BBC Iplayer or Youtube. But this seems to strongly suggest that Matt Smith will atleast appear in the End of Time. Sezfaz 10:34, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Ood Sphere
LIzo Mzimba has seen The Waters of Mars and tweeted about the End of Time trailer: " First scene of next special will be shown at Children In Need. Which is 3 minutes of the Doctor arriving on the Ood sphere."

The Gate
Something interesting, perhaps.

There have now been two references to an object or place called 'The Gate'; both suggest that it has some importance to the final story. In ‘The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith (part 2)’, The Trickster mentions that the Gate is waiting for the Doctor. It was also referenced in an interview that Russell T. Davies did with the Radio Times for the release of The Next Doctor. His exact wording was:

“After that, we’ll be heading towards the momentous day when the key to that blue box is passed on, and the 11th Doctor storms into your lives. Just think of the adventures to come. Though, you’ll still have David at the helm of the Tardis this time next year. But oh, what a Christmas that’s going to be. Let’s just say that dark forces are gathering already. The Gate is waiting and life will never be the same again…”

I still have the orginal Radio Times document, if needed. Slartibarto 18:21, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * The gate refers to death and death refers to regeneration and regeneration refers to Time Lords and Time Lords refer to Daleks and the Daleks refer to the Doctor and the Doctor brings with him the gate. Or regeneration can refer to Capt. Jack, but that's off subject. Lordandmaster 08:48, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

As of the 10th of November, there has been a third reference. In another Radio Times interview (this time for the release of 'The Waters of Mars') Russell T Davies said: "The Master's return is just the start of our biggest, most heart-breaking story yet. The Immortality Gate is waiting." Slartibarto 16:35, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Should it be noted...
...that this is probaly another children of time episode? I hated the previous one! Lordandmaster 16:36, November 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * No because this is a Doctor Who episode not a Torchwood episode, and keep those comments to the forum as well. Bigshowbower 09:22, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't mean children of earth, I said children of time! Time is what Caan used to descibe the Doctor's companians! Lordandmaster 20:23, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * No we do not know what role the companions will play in the story, and again keep it the forums. Bigshowbower 02:59, November 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay. But I thought that the idea was done already, as all the new series companians meeting up. So I thought it was worth noting, but if you tell me not to then I won't. However if the Master even mutters children of time, it will be up there in a flash. Lordandmaster 09:26, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I came off as a bit rude in those posts Im sorry, but yes you should if he does mutter Children of Time. And thank you for thinking I was an admin, I wish I were though, Oh just remeber to sign your posts as well. Bigshowbower 10:33, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay and thanks. Lordandmaster 09:26, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Airdate
It says it will air on the 1st of Jan how do we know this I think it is just speculation. --Catkind121 15:54, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

On November 9th on the Graham Norton Show, Tennant confirmed that part 1 would be shown on Christmas day, and confirmed to the best of his knowledge that part 2 will be broadcast very early in 2010, he even specifically mentions New Years Day. Sezfaz 10:18, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

NEW PAGE
It has been confirmed that the end of time is part one and part two has a title of 6 words so therefore we should now make two different pages. Michael Downey 17:11, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

And call it what?. We shouldnt make two different pages just yet, we should wait until we know what it will be called. I dont see why we have to jump the gun, when we can be preparing for the mass edits of the Waters of Mars page. Bigshowbower 06:03, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

True but little things need editing to pin point out that their going to be called different titles. Michael Downey 10:37, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * As long as we're not editing the pages and pointing towards a redundant title as that will probably make life somewhat more complicated having to find all the edits that have been changed to link (or not link) away from The End of Time or whatever. --Tangerineduel 13:10, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Filming Locations
Kardomah Cafe Swansea and Tredegar House are confirmed- along with Nant Fawr Road where Donna's house is- anybody know anymore?


 * Well I know they were filming in Cardiff city centre - thats the bit on the trailer with the explosion and the doctor falling over! - and Barry Docks. Saxon 3 19:34, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also St.Augustine's church in penarth, Caerphilly castle, Tiger Tiger bar in cardiff (With John Barrowman outside as Jack Harkness), Marshfield church (donna's new wedding), The Powell estate (rose), a bank, Penarth (outside sarah janes house - not sarah jane adventures - with sjs and luke). Saxon 3 20:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Where it says the voiceover for the trailer will be provided by a famous Hollywood actor, listening to the trailer again it sounds to me very much like Brian Cox (Troy and X-Men amongst others).

Title confirmed!
Here! The old style of naming is back! The End of Time, Part One and presumably The End of Time, Part Two. --Golden Monkey 12:43, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I've updated the article accordingly. 23skidoo 13:39, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Airdate, continued
We can't say Jan. 1 for Part 2 as it has not been announced by the BBC. It doesn't matter what individuals have said on chat shows. RTD at one point said Waters of Mars would air at Christmas- and in fact the special itself includes references to the holiday, suggesting this was the original plan. For all we know Part 2 could just as easily air on Boxing Day in the UK. In fact considering the success of Sarah Jane on consecutive nights (not to mention Torchwood Children of Earth), I believe this scenario to be more likely than a New Years Day (or Eve) broadcast. We'll know within a few weeks, but for now we can't put a date for Part 2. 23skidoo 14:52, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

on drwhoonline.co.uk it states that The End of Time Part 2 is on 1st January 2010 (CONFIRMED!!) Shall we edit it?
 * Yes, as we can cite that website as the source. The same info can be added to Wikipedia as well. Digifiend 19:15, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be so hasty, as several blogs are saying Dec. 31. DrWhoOnline can NOT be used as a source because it is a commercial website - it's a shop, for heaven's sake. Wikipedia will reject it outright for that reason alone. We do know it'll be after Dec. 29 as that's the date of the radio special promoting it. But it could still be Dec. 31 or Jan. 1 and until the BBC (not anyone else) announces it, we cannot confirm anything. There's a blog (I had the link but lost it) saying the BBC will announce Dec. 31 as the airdate this week. I'll believe it when I see it, though I would expect the official airdate confirmation for Parts 1 and 2 will come very soon (yes, Part 1 hasn't been officially confirmed, either, but there's enough BBC sources stating "Christmas" to suggest it'll actually air Dec. 25, not Christmas Eve or Boxing Day, as well as precedent, so we're safe giving Dec. 25 as the airdate for Part 1). 23skidoo 22:46, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Whoniverse Timeline: The End of Time, Christmas 2009?
First The Waters of Mars says the Dalek invasion happened in 2008, and therefore in the year it aired; I shrugged that off as a typo, until... The End of Time is set on Christmas 2009, the year it airs (once again). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it the Whoniverse not always a year ahead of us when it comes to modern-day Earth stories?

Adding to this: Children of Earth was also seen to be set in the same year as it aired, not a year ahead. This would all mean Planet of the Dead was Easter 2009, which would put the Dalek invasion in 2008 (as seen in the Waters of Mars), and mean all of Torchwood series 2 happened in 2008 and Doctor Who series 4 would also have happened in 2008. Now it all adds up to the only 2009 stories being Planet of the Dead (April), Children of Earth (September), Forever Autum (October), and The End of Time (Christmas 2009). Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 would most likely come between Planet of the Dead and Children of Earth, and in 2009 between April and September. I think the show is basically screaming out that the Whoniverse timeline is back in sync with ours. Apparantly, the producers may have stated so themselves-- they're showing it, the least. Delton Menace 04:52, November 25, 2009 (UCT)

I've been thinking about this, and one solution to this is that maybe the series was set to start in 2004 in the Whoniverse? That would be one solution. What do you all think of this idea? Adlerj

Didn't Series 3 only happen over about a week on Earth - from Smith and Jones to The Sound of Drums? But The Runaway Bride is set at Christmas so....It's a mess!

I don't understand either I thought that all the stories where a year ahead of themselves due to the Doctor bringing Rose back a year later in the series 1 episode Aliens of London. So I thought Season 4's stories where set in 2009 if they where set in present day. Michael Downey 17:44, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Isn't there posters and/or calanders scattered through random places and locations in Torchwood series 2 that seem to say it is 2008- bearing in mind, Torhcwood series 2 takes place some months before Doctor Who series 4 finale, making it - yet again - take place in 2008? Everything we're shown says the Whoniverse is in sync with ours. I'm going to go with what Adler said and assume the beginging of series 1 was set a year behind us when it aried (making it 2004), and then the year skip caused it to be set in sync with us.

I mean, if the End of Time is really Christmas 2009, we can't class Planet of the Dead as April 2010, but April 2009, and then that puts the Dalek invasion in mid-2008, which is exactly where the Waters of Mars says it takes place: 2008. Torchwood series 2 - base don calanders - furhter confirms that it has to be in 2008, and by default the rest of present day earth stories in series 4 of Doctor Who. Sarah Jane Advetnures series 2 should be later 2008 following the Dalek Invasion, and then Planet of the Dead, then Sarah Jane series 3 between April and September 2009 (under personal assumtion), and then Chilren of Earth in September 2009, following by the End oif Time in Christmas 2009.

We can't really deny that it's in sync with ours anymore because there is too much on-screen evidence, and the fact that Children of Earth also takes place in the year it aired. Delton Menace 18:04, November 2th, 2009 (UCT)

But those are all writers mistakes, and appernetly in the End of Timne part 2 the doc travels to 2004 new year in March 2005 Rose is set. When New Year comes The Doctor asks Rose what year it is she says it is 2005 he picks her up up in march 2005 then goes to march 2006 in aliens of London. So looks like this could be like the UNIT dating crisis. --Catkind121 21:28, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

It is a mess, it's all that stupid Aliens of London thing where he brings her home a year later and the poster says she went missing in March 2005, and the 2008 Dalek invasion taking place after three christmas's. If it wasnt for the christmas specials all being set in present day one after the other it would be fine and dandy. 81.132.89.87 16:17, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Right, heres what the production team supposedly stated (don't quote me on this) But Aliens of London was a year ahead, but series 3 took place over just a few days so the whoinverse is in synch with ours, capische? Excalibur-117 18:44, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

So series 1 was generally in 2005, then skipped to 2006, causing series 2 to be 2007 and series 3 to be 2008.. Series 3 was around May 2008 due to this. But then then Voyage of the Damned jumped to Christmas 2008, causing series 4 to happen in 2009. With series 4 happening in 2009, the Easter specail, which referened the series 4 finale, would be in 2010. Then the Waters of Mars said the Dalek Invasion happened in 2008... Must be a typos! Oh wait- the End of Time, Christmas 2009, causing the Eatser special to be Easter 2009, and then causing the Dalek Invasion and in turn series 4 to happen in 2008, which was also shown in the previous special. This pushes the specials to be 2009, series 4 to be 2008, series 3 to be 2007, series 2 to be 2006, and series 1 to be 2005, and before th Aliens of London, 2004. However, the End of Time also reveals that series 1 had to take place begining in 2005, not 2004.

Huge problem: leaked quotes from a scene where the Doctor travels back to before he meets Rose seems to reveal that Rose met the Ninth Doctor following Chrismtas 2005, causing series 1 beging to be 2006, series 1 later to be 2007, series 2 to be 2008, series 3 to be 2009, series 4 to be 2010, and the specaisl to be 2011.

If that leaed quote is true, not only has the End of Time shoved the Whoniverse timeline back one year, but it has also shoved the Whoniverse time FORWARD two years ahead of us. What the hell have the producers done? Put the whoniverse timeline a year ahead of us, then put it back in sync with us, and then put it toward years ahead us. Delton Menace

At the moment, we know Series 4 was 2009, and all the 3rd Series Sarah Jane Adventures are apparently set in 2010, along with Torchwood:Children of Earth so if the Doctor's doing it logically it SHOULD be set in 2010-Excalibur-117 19:30, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

wait, thats wrong hold on let's see how the other Xmas Specials worked out: Christmas Invasion was 2006, Runaway Bride was 2007 Voyage of the Damned would then be 2008 and End of Time should then be 2009


 * See I'm confused because the battle of canary wharf took place in July 2006 so that means that half of series 1 and 2 took place in 2006 which means the first and second Christmas special took place the same Christmas but we know didn't because the Doctor asks Donna of the events of the previous Christmas so I have identified the where the typo has occurred because I know for a fact that the doctor catches up on time and series 3 happens in 2007 which means the dalek invasion happened in 2008. Right so I think I have worked it out with a previous quote from a writer. Series 1 begins in 2005 and until Aliens of London then goes to 2006. 1st Christmas special date in unknown. Series 2 in 2006, 2nd Christmas special in 2006. Series 3 and 3rd Christmas special in 2007. Series 4 and 4th Christmas Special in 2008 (Dalek Invasion 2008). Planet of the dead 2009 and the end of time set at Christmas 2009. So the typo is clearly the first 2 Christmas specials. Hope This Helps. Michael Downey 22:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Hows about we just wait for the episode to air, then go from there? we all know that if we start trying to do this without knowing whats actually gonna happen then its gonna go sideway- Excalibur-117 23:01, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Well, the Christmas special will air in less than a month now, so the timeline suspence (for us who care about the timeline deeply) is building. I mean, when the episode airs, and a big 'HAPPY CHRISTMAS' sign directly states that it is Christmas 2009 - or Wilf or some character says it is 2009, ect. - can we really ignore that? That indeed puts the Easter special April 2009, and in turn the Dalek invasion is indeed 2008 (which has already been shown in the Waters of Mars). We will need to put the timeline back a year (for the modern day earth stories in the revived series, Torchwood, and the Sarah Jane Adventures). But when that is done, what do we make of the Aliens of London/World War Three and how it put everything forward a year? There has to be an explanation. I don't understand this whole series-three-put-everything-back talk, as the Aliens of London caused series 3 to be 2008 by default, and then Voyage the Damned, coming after, ended up being Christmas 2008, causing series 4 to be 2009. The Next Doctor would have been Christmas 2009 if it wasn't in the past, so it is assumed Earth had a normal Christmas that year, but the End of Time says otherwise.

But the important thing is, is there an official source that says when the End of Time skaes place? Delton Menace 21:12, November 28, 2009(UCT)

At the moment, I don't think there is. And we've also got to remember that somes of it's gonna be set on the Ood Sphere, 100 years after Planet of the Ood which if my memory and maths are any decent should make it about 4226.-Excalibur-117 13:29, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Taking in the fact that, as I looked through the Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 and the setting for the first half of the series said 2010, whereas the second half of the series said 2009 (talk about backwards storytelling, or typos), there is obviousaly a large (well, not that large) confusion on TARDIS wiki about timeline setting, with some saying 2009 and others saying 2010. I would prefer that the timeline is indeed in sync to make life in Who easier, and because the large gap that would be between April 2009 and Sepember 2009 would make room for the Sarah Jane Adventures series 3, while explaing Sarah Jane's lack of involvment or even knowledge of the 456 invasion suring the third series (it was taking place in London, and Sarah Jane has had many missions where she come into some form of contact with younger children, you'd think there would be a refernece by her about possesed children). I personally think the timeline looks much cleaner for 2009 that way, so I am hoping the End of Time's setting is true.

I'm thinking, if it is and 2009 is the specials era: April, Planet of the Dead happens; post-April and pre-September, Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 happens; September, TorchwoodL Children of Earth happens; December, the End of Time happens. Nice, clean timeline.

I always thought that Jack's dissapearance in September 2009 and reappearance in early 2010 would indicate that his invovlment in the finale specials took place after he left Gwen and Rhys in September 2009 and before he went back to them in 2010. I mean, what DID he do in that time span? I reckon his involvemtn in the End of Time is the answer, and that was Russel T. Davies (since he wrote both) putting it together like a jigsaw puzzle. Delton Menace

Queenie
Just readin the reference in regards to QE1 and her "supposed" relations with te Doctor, firstly, someone may want to mention that this could be the reason she wanted him dead in "The Shakespeare Code" and secondly, i believe that hte nickname he was referring to, since the way he phrase the sentence to ood sigma, was in fact "good queen elizabeth" not "virgin queen"

Lucy Saxon, Ood Sigma, and the Beast
She is down in the 'aliens and enemies' for the End of Time, but how do we know she's an enemy, espcailly after she turned against the Master at the end of Last of the Time Lords? Many people overlook that. She, in a sense, turned good. She helped the Doctor defeat the Master, and then shot him. This seems to contradict people assuming she is an enemy in the End of Time before they even see it. I personally highly doubt she will be an enemy, but more, just, there. Heck, I reckon she sacrafice herself to help the Doctor in the end... Davies said it's a sad story for Lucy in an interview. Very sad story for her. in the End of Time.

Sure, we know the Master is an alien and enemy in the episode, so it's fine putting that down. But we don't know about Lucy, and it is very debatable based on her previous actions whether she will be an enemyat all. Currently known is that she was sent to prison and there is an explosion, the prison is called Broadfell. She's more a human criminal than anything, but should we expect her as an enemy of the Doctor in the finale?

As for Ood Sigma, who might be possesing him? I bet my money it's the Beast, and he will probably be the one exelerating the Ood species and giving them their advanced psychic abilities. In fact, I believe the Beast is the true bad guy in the finale, and the one who has cast a shadow over creation, possesed Ood Sigma, excelerated the Ood, and he may be the 'vast thing stirring in the dark'. He did call himself the darkness, after all, mentioned war, and say he was beyond time itself. Sound familair? Delton Menace 20:21 November 30, 2009 (UCT)