Talk:War Doctor/Archive 2

November 2013 rename discussion
When the article name is changed it'll need to be noted that he is not referred to as the War Doctor on screen, just in the closing credits, at least in the minisode (that may change, of course). Also, media are already beginning to refer to him as the Ninth Doctor, so a redirect of some sort will need to be added to Ninth Doctor. I will take the liberty if it isn't locked and no one else has done it already. 68.146.70.124talk to me 14:19, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think a hatnote on "Ninth Doctor" is better than a redirect. Furthermore, he isn't actually the "Ninth Doctor" because he isn't a "Doctor" due to breaking the "promise" and using a different name. Also, it had been made incredibly clear that Matt Smith is the Eleventh Doctor anyway. -- Snorlax Monster  14:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * His name is mentioned in July's issue of Sky Jacks, where the Doctor who ends the Time War is called the Renegade. That's about as in-universe as we're gonna get, and he's not called the Doctor then either. --Revan\Talk 14:44, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest we wait until after the 23rd to make a decision on this. Silent Hunter UK ☎  19:21, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh no. Please, we can't keep this name. That was good when he only appeared in "The Name of the Doctor". Now, he is in two different stories so... The Renegade or the War Doctor, I think. If they put "The War Doctor" in the credits, it is not an coincidence :) Lady Junky 19:31, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hopefully we'll get a better name for him next Saturday, but until then "The War Doctor" does seem the most appropriate. "The War Doctor" might not be an in-universe name, but neither is "The Doctor", and in my opinion just calling him "The Doctor" even with a parenthetical is even worse from an in-universe perspective since one of the few things we do seem to know about him is that he did not go by that name. Burzolog ☎  20:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lady Junky, it's site policy to use the name of the character's debut episode when disambiguation is needed. But I agree that this article should be called The War Doctor, as that's what he's called in Night of the Doctor's credits.

Hey guys :) As Silent Hunter UK has indicated, the wisest course of action is to simply wait until 23 November. We want to make sure we've got the right name and that we understand who this character really is.  It would be a bad use of time to change the name of this article to "the War Doctor" only to find out next eek that it's not "the War Doctor" at all.

I've reverted the article to a point before The Night of the Doctor had been released. As with all prequels/preludes/teasers, its point was to stimulate the salivary glands, not to reveal any truths. It's important to remember that Moffat would be a poor showman indeed if he'd just given us the answers about Hurt's character. What, then, would be the need of the full episode?

So let's just put this whole renaming thing on hold for a mere 8 days and write from a position of knowledge rather than speculation. Remember: we didn't even actually see McGann turn into Hurt in this webcast, so we can't assert too much at this point. Patience now will lead to better editing later.

This figure is likely to be important to the whole mythos of the show, so let's make sure we get a good, solid, narratively-introduced name, rather than going from one credit-based name to another. 00:38: Fri 15 Nov 2013


 * I can understand the rationale behind waiting to move the article, but surely it's stretching things a bit to say that we didn't see McGann turn into Hurt? We saw McGann regenerating, we cut away, then we saw a figure in the same clothes with the face of the young Hurt (in reflection). Just because there wasn't an on-screen morph doesn't mean that we can deny the clear implication. —Josiah Rowe ☎  05:14, November 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Indeed, it's pretty clearly a regeneration story, we just didn't see a full morph because the minisode had a limited budget. And from Moffat's comments it's clear that the intent was for this to be a regeneration story. JagoAndLitefoot ☎  08:56, November 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Moffat's comments are out-of-universe and therefore not valid sources for in-universe stories. Shambala108 ☎  15:11, November 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait, so the guy who wrote the thing isn't a valid source on what happened in the episode? And yes, this was pretty obviously The Eighth Doctor regeneration story. We saw him take the potion, we saw the glow of a regeneration, and directly after the regeneration, we saw The Renegade. Ergo, it counts, in my opinion. --TC 16:42, November 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Please read the following pages and you will understand my point: Tardis:Point of view, Tardis:In-universe perspective, Tardis:Out-of-universe perspective and Tardis:Valid sources. There are certain rules we follow on this wiki regarding sources of information.


 * Also, when signing your posts, please use four tildes as described above; it will automatically include your user name and a link to your user page and talk page. Shambala108 ☎  17:00, November 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * I consider it a regeneration based on what I saw in the episode - it's pretty clear. Moffat's comments simply support that. JagoAndLitefoot ☎  18:33, November 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * They have a conversation about how their elixir can cause and control regenerations. The Eighth Doctor is convinced to drink the elixir saying "Make me a warrior" - a complete change into something else. He drinks the elixir, goes all glowy and painful, then you see a reflection of John Hurt in a polished surface. I'm pretty convinced this is a regeneration story - I'm surprised there's even a debate that it might not be. TARDIStraveler ☎  19:01, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

'There's no need for a Doctor anymore; make me a Warrior.... Doctor no more.'  I think that speaks for itself, don't you? We should change the name of this page to 'The Warrior' or 'Warrior'. Also 'The War Doctor' in the credits isn't in-universe. 108.246.48.79talk to me 18:32, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, as User:CzechOut stated above, this article will not be renamed until after the airing of the special on Nov. 23. As this discussion clearly proves, there is no consensus of what his name is, and hopefully the special will clear that up without us having to make up names based on different criteria. Shambala108 ☎  18:49, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

'He says 'Warrior'. What is not clear about that?!? He says it onscreen right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You sir do not make any since whatsoever.' Also, we as a wiki are supposed to give the most accurate description we can. 'Warrior' has been the most accurate description since 14 November 2013. Even if he is not called the Warrior the Doctor said, 'there's no need for a Doctor,' (referring to himself in this context, as he says 'Doctor', not 'physician' or 'good man' or 'healer' or wise man') 'make me a Warrior' (this is obviously supposed to refer to his next body as he is saying what he is going to become: he is no longer going to be the Doctor, which is what this title suggests) '.'108.246.48.79talk to me 02:34, November 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * 108, I don't know who your comment is aimed at, but please read Tardis:No personal attacks and moderate your tone. Shambala108 ☎  14:21, November 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * To put it simply it should be called "War Doctor" as John Hurt Doctor was explicitly called that.

Ironic, no?
Isn't it ironic that the Doctor would turn himself into a dark, fearsome warrior when the Time War finally came for him, and yet the Master turned himself into an amnesiac pacifist as far away as he could get? A bit of a role reversal, no? d ●  ●  ●   16:17, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

'Doctor', 'Warrior', and the Gamma Forest
'Doctor' and 'Warrior' are the same thing in the Gamma Forests. Should we reference that?108.246.48.79talk to me 02:32, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

shouldn't he be called the Warrior
 * I think there is a hint to that, but we really don't have enough to go on right now. The connection between the warrior incarnation of the Doctor and the Gamma Forests will likely become clear once the full episode airs. I'd rather hold off adding anything like that until then. -- Snorlax Monster  11:05, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

The Valeyard
Since this is the 9th iteration, and we've seen 10,11,12 for the new Doctor Who... then during Trial of a Time Lord where it is mentioned that the Valeyard is distilled from the darkness between the 12th and 13th regenerations, then wouldn't the Valeyard actually be the War Doctor in disguise? as Matt Smith is meeting him at his own grave, and the next Doctor will be 13, then this must be the Darkness. -- 70.24.244.51talk to me 11:03, November 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Go watch Trial of a Time Lord again. At no point is the phrase "13th regeneration" uttered. The actual dialogue is "Somewhere between your 12th and final regeneration." And Night of the Doctor established this to be a bona fide regeneration, just one the Doctor has chosen not to count for reasons that may or may not be explained later. 68.146.70.124talk to me 21:04, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Use of the name
Somewhere in the Behind the Scenes it should be noted that, so far, the name "War Doctor" has only been used in the credits (and John Hurt used it when he was interviewed by the Daily Mail), and not uttered on screen. This, of course, may change in the coming days. Or not. For what it's worth I support waiting till the special airs before making a final determination on the article name itself since the name used for Hurt's Doctor has changed once already (from "The Doctor" in Name to "War Doctor" in Night) so for all we know it could change again in the special. For example, for all we know the special could indicate that the "War Doctor" goes by the John Smith alias or whatever, so presumably this article would have to be renamed that. 68.146.70.124talk to me 21:07, November 21, 2013 (UTC)