Howling:"he can regenerate more than 12 times - a lot more!"

So apparently the Doctor can regenerate more that 12 times - a lot more. And he doesn't have to be white. This is a teaser for Death of the Doctor. Moffat said that an "old friend" would be tackling this issue, but do you think he meant Russell? He also said this series, and I suppose the series hasn't quite ended, so it could very well be this. I can't wait to see it now.... The article is here by the way. --The Thirteenth Doctor 23:04, October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well if they are going to break the 12 regeneration rule it probably is better that they are going to explain it rather than ignore it. It would, however, be better if they actually explained it in the main show instead of the spin-off. The regeration limit is an important part of the Doctor's character, and he is a Doctor Who character, not a Sarah Jane character. Syfy hasn't aired any of the Sarah Jane Adventures after season 1 in the U.S. (probably because it is not nearly as good as Torchwood of Doctor Who), so American fans will have to wait until the DVD comes out to find out this important piece of information about the Doctor.Icecreamdif 20:30, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * It does strike me as odd that the former producer of Who is altering such a heavy piece of the mythos rather than the current one, but I find it a bit neat actually. The closer we get to the Thirteenth Doctor, the more urgently the show would have to address what was basically a throwaway plot point in order to enable the Time Lord President to be really assassinated in The Deadly Assassin. They could just as easily have made the number 20 or 50 or 100, but nobody could have been giving much thought to the effect the limit of 13 lives would have on the character of the Doctor seeing as how in 1976 they were still only on Doctor Four on a (comparatively merely in hindsight) 13-year-old programme.
 * I'm glad the question is apparently being addressed sooner rather than later; it'd be cheesier to have the future Thirteenth Doctor lament how it's his last life for his entire tenure until some magic plot point grants him a 14th life. We just had that sort of emo story arc for a series of four stories with mixed results, imagine having to put up with that for a Doctor's entire tenure! It'd be unfair to the character, the actor, or the viewers, and handwaving it now frees all future Who cast, crew, and fans from having to worry about it. Additionally, addressing it in the spinoff means us canon addicts will be able to fully appreciate it, while all the newer and more casual Who viewers who never gave the matter any thought won't really have to start now. Rob T Firefly 20:46, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Just in from SJA: he can regenerate 507 times apparently. How is that possible? 86.159.119.128 16:44, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * The same way it was possible for him to regenerate the past ten times. Rob T Firefly 23:31, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I live in the US, so i haven't seen it yet. Is there actually some explanation as to why he can regenerate 507 times, or is it left unexplained?Icecreamdif 23:35, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason for the number is left entirely unexplained, just as it was when the limit was given as 12 regenerations. Rob T Firefly 00:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the original regeneration limit seemed like it was both to make the timelords mortal, instead of theoretically being able to live forever, and to give the Master a motive in the Deadly Assassin. I understand that they didn't explain why they chose the number 507, but do they actually explain why the number has changed since the TV movie, or do they just act like he always had 507 regenerations.Icecreamdif 00:26, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The limit of 13 lives was introduced in The Deadly Assassin so that they could really kill off the Lord President and enable that murder mystery/conspiracy story to take place; before that we'd seen Time Lords regenerate with no mention of any limits. All other references to 13 lives stem from that. I do not imagine the writers were considering the effect the choice of number would have; the show was only 13 years old and they were only on Doctor Four. They might not have ever considered that the programme would go on for longer than any other scifi drama, and we'd actually get up to Doctor Thirteen someday and have to deal with the consequences of their plot point. Rob T Firefly 09:28, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * For the littlest chance that Moffat or Davies is watching, there is a way they can spin it to be 507. In The End of Time, one of the Time Ladies mentions that every second millions of Time Lords were dying and being brought back to life to find new ways to die. Regeneration seems like the obvious way to do that, so perhaps, given they can grant new cycles, the Time Lords gave a huge number of regenerations to every Time Lord and Lady so that they could live again and again and again. Of course, the Eighth Doctor wouldn't have regenerated into other forms, but at the end of the War into his Ninth incarnation. That's the way I'd like to see it. --The Thirteenth Doctor 11:09, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's also another way.. In Forest of the Dead, River gave a hint that the Doctor's abilities were escalating beyond that of a Time Lord, to where he's able to snap his fingers and open the TARDIS. So, if his abilities are going beyond that of a Time Lord, then maybe his regeneration abilities are escalating too! TheTARDIScontroller 05:04, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I like that idea. I think he's far more brilliant than his grades at the Time Lord Academy indicate, a bit like Albert Einstein in that sense. After all, he was able to single-handedly remove an entire planet from all of time as well as space. I think he can overcome a 12-regeneration limit, even if it is biological. Rnddim 06:31, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * I like that idea. I think he's far more brilliant than his grades at the Time Lord Academy indicate, a bit like Albert Einstein in that sense. After all, he was able to single-handedly remove an entire planet from all of time as well as space. I think he can overcome a 12-regeneration limit, even if it is biological. Rnddim 06:31, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps its because the time lords are no longer around to monitor his cycle so he alloted himself lot more.I think such a high number will make his lives throaway objects and will make a plot such as the curse of fatal death where he goes through a whole load of bodies far too quickly possible in canon.Assuming he's already used 11 of his 507 even if they had a different doctor every year the series could run for 496 years.Of course they'll have to do a lot of time crack style retconning to explain why the next few centuries are so different from how they appear in doctor who. --666hotline 14:24, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

It's nothing to do with the Time Lords not being around anymore. Regeneration is a biological factor. See this link. Oh, and there is something from televised Who for those who choose to ignore the spin-off media. If you've actually seen the clip you can tell that he was most likely joking. Even Davies admits it wasn't to be taken seriously. My main worry is that they never will give it a good explanation. TemporalSpleen 15:53, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think Davies said it wasn't to be taken seriously, he just says it amused him greatly to do it and theorized that fandom would probably ignore it. Rob T Firefly 23:44, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * 507 = 13 * 39 = 13 * 13 * 3 Apparently an upper limit of 39 on the number of cycles that a timelord can be granted. Wibbly-Wobbly 04:15, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * 507 = 13 * 39 = 13 * 13 * 3 Apparently an upper limit of 39 on the number of cycles that a timelord can be granted. Wibbly-Wobbly 04:15, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

We know the Doctor was joking though, because we know for a fact that he can only regenerate 12 times. That isn't something like the Doctor's age, where different insignficant lines conflict with eachother. The Deadly Assassin, Mawdryn Undead, The TV Movie, and many other episodes plots are based around the fact that Timelords can onyl regenerate 12 times. Death to the Doctor just featured a random line of dialogue about regeneration that wasn't relevant to the plot. Since Davies isn't writing for Doctor Who anymore anyway, they probably won't go anywhere with the 507 limit. If they do end up having a 14th Doctor, without any explanation, then maybe we can take this line seriously.Icecreamdif 23:28, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * How do we know he was joking? He answered Clyde's previous question about what he can change into seriously. And we don't know for a fact that he can only regenerate 12 times. It could have changed. He stated it as fact, which is something we have to accept. It contradicts the previous statements of him only being able to regenerate 12 times, so it obviously has changed. We can't use the fact Davies isn't writing for Doctor Who any more as a reason not to use it, after all, Moffat did actually say that an old friend of his would mention it that year, so he was most likely part of it. We shouldn't take it as a joke whatsoever. It was stated as fact with no contradictory lines since, so we must take it as fact. --The Thirteenth Doctor 12:04, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

The reason that we know that he is joking is that we know that what he said isn't true. The 507 statement was just a passing reference, and the 12 regeneration limit was a major plot point of several episodes. The Doctor still goes around telling people that he is very old, and refferring to this part of his life as his old age. If he can still regenerate 497 times, than he is still very young, and closer to the beginning of his life than to the end. If he can only regenerate twice more, than he is very old, and closer to the end of his life than to the beginning. Unless we have more evidence than just a passing reference, either an explanation or seeing him regenerate a thirteenth time, than we should still assume that he can only regenerate 12 times. From what we've seen in the past, there is no way that the 12 regeneration limit could change. It is part of Time Lord biology, and their is no reason that it would spontaneously change to 507.Icecreamdif 00:21, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, we don't know that it is true any more. It was true, but since the TV movie nothing has been stated of the regeneration limit except that reference. And it's hardly spontaneous if, since the movie, this is the first time it's been mentioned. If it was 12 regenerations in one episode, then mentioned to be 507 in the very next, that would be spontaneous. Just because it was in passing doesn't mean it isn't true. A lot of things are said in passing, and in passing itself is an ambiguous term. And as for the "no way" the limit can be changed, I will refer you only to the Master. He's living proof that the limit can be changed. Saying it hasn't changed when the Doctor stated it was different is going against canon fact. --The Thirteenth Doctor 01:14, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

The Master is an unusual case. He didn't just regenerate more than twelve times. After his thirtennth self died, he becamee a weird decayed form, pssessed a Trakenite, died again, became a weird ghost snake thing, possessed a human, and was resurrected by the Time Lords. After his ressurection in between the TV Movie and Utopia he seems to have gotten a new cycle, but presumably is still bound to a new twelve regeneration cycle. (Although after his ressurection in End of TIme who knows how his regenerations work now.) Time Lord biology can't just completely change at random, just like Human biology can't completely change at random. In some cases "in passing" may be ambigous, but this was an episode, of the spin-off, where regeneration didn't really have anything to do with the plot, and the Doctor didn't seem like he was in the mood to explain it to Clyde. Icecreamdif 04:38, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's one of the points I'm making, it hasn't changed at random. The last time the regeneration limit was mentioned was in the TV movie. Given there's been no mention of the limit since the revival and we don't know what happened off screen, the Time War being the most probable cause of the change. If the Doctor said 13 one episode, 507 the next and then 27 then next, that would be random. The Master is the best example that the biology can be changed. Regeneration wasn't the direct focus of the plot, no, but the fact that it was a new Doctor and he had regenerated was. My question to you then is, if he answered the first question of Clyde's properly, the "are you always white?", why would he then lie for the next one? He had no reason to. Nothing suggests he was. --The Thirteenth Doctor 14:39, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Actually we don't know whether or not he answered his first question truthfully. If he could change skin color, then it would be highly improbably that he would have the same skin color 11 out of 11 times. Bu that's another topic, and there isn't anything concrete to contradict it. He probably though that the saying that he could regenerate 507 times would sound more impressive to Clyde than saying "I can regenerate 2 more times and then I'm dead." The Master does prove that it is possible to live past the regeneration limit, but he hasn't come close to achieving a 507 limit. If he can still regenerate after his ressurection in End of Time, than he can probably only regenerate 11 more times at the most. And do you really think that the Doctor would live in the decaying form that the Tersuus Master lived in, or would possess people? There is no reason to believe that the Time War somehow changed the regeneration limit. And yes, the change was stil random. The length in between the episodes has nothing to do with it. In several episodes the regeneration limit was stated as 12, and then in another episoed, a few years later, it was stated as 507. That seems pretty random to me. And there are several episodes of the new series where the Doctor refers to himself as being in his "old age." He wouldn't say this if he can still regenerate hundreds of times.Icecreamdif 22:01, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Highly improbably but has happened. He's said it before that he could be anything (The Parting of the Ways) and he said it again here. Nothing else to contradict it, so we can take it as truth. What I'm saying is the limit was 13, but is now 507. The Master did reach the 13 limit several times, but that doesn't mean it isn't 507 now. There is a reason to believe the Time War changed the limit. In The End of Time one of the Time Lady's says that millions were dying only to be resurrected to find new ways of dying. That gives me reason to believe that the limit has been changed somehow. I know it's not to do with the length between episodes, but it's what happens then, offscreen. And I wouldn't call 14 years a "few years". As for the old age, he's never said he is in his old age. He only says that he is getting old. There's a difference. These days being in your late 20s is considered getting older. So it may be for 900 years for a Time Lord. My main point is; the Doctor stated it as fact. We document the facts. If we go against facts then why are we even here? In 2005 when the Doctor stated the Time Lords were dead, did we say he was wrong? No. Even though it happened off screen, their living status changed. The same goes for the regeneration limit. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:36, January 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's worth noting that we already have a canon Time Lord who has had different skin colors in his different incarnations, since Don Warrington played Rassilon in the audios and posed for in-character photos on the CD booklets. Rob T Firefly 12:39, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

When he said that it could be anything, he also said that he might have 2 heads, or no head at all. Every Timelord that we've ever seen has looked like a human, so clearly the 9th Doctor was either joking or delirious. They still haven't technically said that he can only be a white man, so it wouldn't be a continuity error or anything if they ever decided to change his race or gender. The Timelady couldn't have been talking about regeneration. Regeneration has never been described as ressurection before. She said that the Timelords were dying before they were ressurected, and you can't regenerate after death(unless you are pumped full of drugs like the Seventh Doctor was.) It seems more likely that she is refferring to however the Master and Rassillon came back. The Master fell into the Eye of Harmony, and actually died, without regenerating, in the TV Movie, but in Utopia he said that the Timelords ressurected him. That sounds much more like what the Timelady was talking about than regeneration does. Regeneration wouldn't be practical in the Timewar anyway. We know that there are weapons, like TCEs and Timelord stasers, that can prevent regeneration, so if the Daleks were in a war against the Timelords they would have found a way to exterminate them without them regenerating. In The End of the World, the Doctor didn't just say that the Timelords died. He got very emotional, talked about being the last of the Timelords, mentioned the Time War, and made it very clear that he was telling the truth. Apart from that, we know that species are capable of being wiped out. In Death to the Doctor, the Doctor just said 507, without elaborating, or makiing it seem like the number was significant to him at all. Changing a law of biology, like the regeneration limit, is very different than wiping out a species.Icecreamdif 22:43, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this theroy as to why he can reneragte more then three times has been stated already, but I might as well post it anyway:

In one episode of the olden Doctor Who episodes, forget which, the Time Lord president or something like that gives him extra lives to fight something, The Master I think. (Sorry for being so vauge, I haven't watched the episode in forever.) But, all of the time-lords excluding The Doctor, his daughter being a half time-lord, and the Master are dead, right? So, the person who decides who much times they regenerate is also dead, right? Therefore, doesn't that mean he gets infininte regenerations? Just a hypothysis.  WARNING:  This user has a 100% chance of awesomeness! 23:59, March 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * You're probably thinking of the Five Doctors, when the Timelords offered the Master a new set of regenerations in exchange for helping the Doctors in the death zone. However, they didn't just mean that they are going to allow him to break the regeneration limit. At theat point he wasn't a Timelord. He was a Trakenite who was being posessed by a Timelord, and obviously Trakenites can not regenerate. They were offering to give him a normal regeneration cycle with the 12-regeneration limit still imposed. In all likelihood, they were probably offering to give him a new Timelord body. The regeneration limit isn't something that is being imposed by the Timelords, it is just how regeneration naturally works. If you were the last human alive, your lifespan wouldn't increase because there was nobody left to decide how long you can live. Even if the Timelords being gone did explain why he could regenerate more than 12 times, it doesn't explain why the limit is now supposedly 507. If the Timelords being gone made the regeneration limit go away, it would be infinite, not 507.Icecreamdif 02:00, March 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yea, that's probably it. But, perhaps God decides wheter we live or not near death, in a Christain's point of view, for arguements sake. So, if he died, wouldn't everyone live? There would be no death? It would be the same story with time-lords, if the person who decided how much regenerations they got died, couldn't they get infinite due to that? As for the 507 instead of infinite thing... I dunno, to be honest, I don't nessecarily belive this at this point, I'm just trying to come up with a reasobable-ish explaination, that's better then: "Hey, we decided to get as much money from the show as possible, so completly ignore the fact that in the old version of the show we insisted he only had twelve regenerations!"  WARNING:  This user has a 100% chance of awesomeness! 02:20, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

Nobody decided that Timelords only regenerate 12 times, they just evolved that way, just like nobody decided how long humans can live for. Icecreamdif 21:24, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

The Five Doctors actually contradicts itsself when it comes to offering a new regeneration limit. The Timelords offer the Master a new regeneration limit, but the reason that Borusa does everything that he does is because he wants to go past 13 lives, but according to legend only Rassilon had the secret to infinite regeneration. If the council could grant the Master a new set of regenerations, than the Lord President wouldn't need to go into the Death Zone and find Rassilon to gain immortality. The Timelords were either lying to the Master, or they could grant him a new set of regenerations since he wasn't in a Timelord body.Gowron8472 14:21, March 19, 2011 (UTC)

I think that was RTD's final practical joke on Dr. Who. As for the actual comment, it looked like he was being "tongue in cheek" or that he simply pulled a number outof the air to avoid discussing the whole regeneration concept. When the number of regenerations does change, I don't think it will be due to some side comment in a spinoff. -- Rest In Peace Sarah Jane \ Talk to me! 12:44, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

What we do know, is that despite the fact that the 12 regenerations limit may be 'matter-of-fact', it won't be when the 13th incarnation dies. Somehow, they'll figure a way out of it to get a 14th incarnation. How they'll do it remains to be seen.

Gallifrey102 13:27, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You can't possibly predict the future. We don't even know if the show will still even be on the air long enough for it to be an issue. I think that the best option would be to postpone having to deal with the issue as much as possible. Most shows don't have cast changes as often as Doctor Who, so why should a Doctor only stay for 3 or 4 years. Tom Baker stayed for 7 years. If Matt Smith, and his two successors, stayed for 7 years each, the show could last another 20 years, which is about as long as the classic series lasted. When the 13th Doctor is ready to leave, they can kill off the Doctor, give the show a big ending, and end on a high note, instead of waiting to be cancelled like last time.Icecreamdif 14:25, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

That would be nice, since they'll stick to the continuity lore. That would be like making a human character immortal in their last episode.

Gallifrey102 14:29, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I dunno, Icecreamdif. The show has a pretty big, world-wide following, and the average tenure of a Dr. is 3-4 years. That would mean the time could come sooner than you think. Plus, let's face it. It's really fun to speculate! -- Rest In Peace Sarah Jane \ Talk to me! 18:36, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The exact average length is 3 years. So, provided that Smith stays on until 2013 would mean that in another 8 years from now, if he's killed off with no regeneration, the show will be over by 2019.

Gallifrey102 18:41, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I know that the average is 3 years, but I'm saying that they should try to raise the average. Most shows as popular as Doctor Who last more than 3 years, and most shows don't have major cast changes as often as Doctor Who. Tom Baker lasted for seven years, and he as one of the more popular actors to play the Doctor, so why shouldn't the next 3 Doctors stay on for that long. The show would probably get old if it went on for too long, going up to the 15th Doctor, or the 20th Doctor. Look at the classic series. By the time they got up to the Seventh Doctor, the plots stopped making sense, and the show got less popular, until it was cancelled and ended with an episode that hardly provided any closure at all. It is better for a show to end on a high note, when it is popular and has good ratings, than to end on a low note, when it is just cancelled because nobody watches it anymore.Icecreamdif 22:02, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how good the show is by the time the thirteenth incarnation dies.

Gallifrey102 10:01, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Here's a thought: Maybe when the entirety of time lord society is wiped out and the people who make the rules are no longer around to enforce them, the rules change a bit? We can debate specifics for ages, but when it comes down to it there are multiple accounts of individuals, who don't even have to be time lords, who went way past the 13 regeneration limit. Rassilon, the Master, and I seem to recall a ship full of mutants who had infinite regenerations or something to that effect, though the name escapes me. Again, we can debate specifics and say none of them were "normal" examples or whatever, but it just seems to me that if so many of these guys can get around what is supposedly a biological restriction, then it's obviously it's not too difficult to extend the regeneration cycle in spite of it being biological, (which by the way I still don't believe it is hence my opening sentence) so I don't see why some of you here are so resistant to the idea that the Doctor could have gone beyond that limit. He's not a "normal" example either. Sure, the actual explaination of why it's gone from 13 to 507 is missing, but the idea that it could isn't really that implausible. And really, given all the stuff that happened offscreen before the new series began, there could be any number of explainations for it. Whether it's actual writers or internet speculators that will fill in the blanks is irrelevant at this point. 90.206.89.244 00:11, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

The death of the Timelords wouldn't change Timelord biology. That would be like saying that a Human could live indefinetly (wihtout becoming flat) after the human race has gone extinct. Rassilon was believed to posess the secret of infinite regeneration, but it turned out that his version of immortality was turning people into statues. The Master's method of surviving past his 13th life was not regenerating, but involved becoming a weird decayed being, posesesing a Trakenite, and  posessing a human. When the Master was thrown into the eye of harmony in the TV Movie he died, and didn't regenerate. However, the Timelords were able to use there powers to return both the Master and Rassilon to life, with a full set of regenerations. Now that the Timelords are gone, this would be impossible. The Minyans weren't Timelords, or even Gallifreyans, so obiously there rules of regeneration would be different to those oof Timelords, just like some species live longer than others. If the Timelords did reinforce the regeneration limit, than the Doctor would have iinfinite regenerations noww rather than 507. Why would a new, random, regeneration limit be imposed after noone was left ot impose it. You can tell by his tone that he was being sarcasic when he was talking to Clyde, and probably didn't want to admit that he only had 2 regenerations left, and thus was near the end of is life. If the Timelords were enforcing the regeneration limit, than why would Borusa, the Lord President of the Timelord High Council, come up with an overly complicated plan, involving breaking the first law of time and trying to find the long "dead" founder of Timelord civilisation, when he could just order the council to stop enforcing te regeneration limit?Icecreamdif 00:28, April 27, 2011 (UTC)