Forum:Revisiting fiction with branching elements and historical policy therein

Discussion
I think I support the validity of all the sources listed here, although Battle for the Universe is one I'm less certain of. Pluto2 ☎ 02:58, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hmm. I've been following this with a lot of interest as it was written, so I have many thoughts, but they're still somewhat unstructured. I think I'll start with covering some of the important history OS25 missed before proceeding to more general issues. But before that, just to "establish my credentials", as it were - let me just point out Talk:Warring States (novel). Thinking about branching path stories has been on my mind since my second plot summary on this wiki. (Also, you know, Rule 1 is dead and I have killed it. :P) If there's disagreement here, and I expect there will be with many users in many areas, it's meant fully in the constructive sense.


 * So, history. Firstly, I think it's mistaken to suggest that at any point
 * This wiki used to cover Ten Doctors. That was it.
 * The things being cited as evidence for this were declared "non canon" for specific reasons, the Bernice Summerfield spinoffs were always "canon", or, well, were after the very first year or two of really rough discussion where it's unclear what's all "canon" and what isn't. But even this doesn't imply that the users disliked the stuff that was "non canon" See discussion at Forum:Name of the wiki - revisit for example.
 * We also cover things we explicitly label as being outside the DWU. Not just the non-canon stuff, but the behind-the-scenes stuff. This isn't a wiki that's just about the fictional universe; it's about everything related to Doctor Who. Given how much editing I've done on the real world side of things, I actually take offense at the diminishment of my work implied by the new title - User:CzechOut
 * I think this framing is just historically inaccurate and uncharitable. Similarly, OS25 has missed two important threads for this discussion. The first is Forum:Why do prefixes link as they do?, which establishes that stage plays cannot be valid because the events of the narrative might subtly change night to night, performance to performance, as the actors slightly diverge from the script. Forum:City of the Daleks is also critical, as it's the genesis of the idea that gameplay is part of the narrative - it predates Forum:We need a policy on videogames.
 * The BBC really should release an official play-through video of someone doing everything exactly as intended. No matter what they say, I don't think it's actually canonical that "the Doctor walked around in circles for a while because Amy wouldn't go around the edge of the wall, then he accidentally walked directly into a view of the Daleks and got exterminated, but the last minute of time was somehow undone, and after four more reptitions of this, he finally made it to the Underground."
 * I note also that the Lego Dimensions thread that OS25 alludes to features a closing post containing the following
 * As has been discussed numerous times this decade, any game which has multiple outcomes depending on how the player chooses to play isn't an actual narrative. It's a "choose your own adventure", which aren't allowed. Full stop. The presence or absence of cut scenes is irrelevant. [Emphasis mine]
 * Arguably this overrides the original discussion on The Adventure Games, and is why video games since then have been invalid. But at that point TAG should be invalid as well, and, you know, it would apply to literally every video game OS25 listed, I believe. TAG gets a pass just because The BBC called it canon, as far as I can tell.


 * I, respectfully, think it's a misreading of User:Amorkuz's comments at The Saviour of Time. He didn't suggest that it was true only in that case, but that in this case it necessarily happened - that the argument given simply can't work in the scenario. This is denying the antecedent. (Now, it doesn't mean that the people citing the talk page were right to do so. But neither does the talk page establish that this was an exception or a one time thing.)


 * Real briefly, while we're discussing Infinity, since you brought up the subject of visual novels, we should clarify their status on this wiki. Well. There's only one so far. But there's almost certainly going to be more. Are they considered books or video games? I haven't yet played Spun Glass, but my understanding is that the plot is linear enough that it would be valid (aside from perhaps dialogue options).


 * Now, before we get to a theory of coverage, let's just say, is argument 3, as OS25 terms it, reasonable?


 * I mean. Of course it is. Once again, I note that our classifications are for our benefit as wiki editors, if it's truly the case that making these stories valid would put an undue burden on our editors than there's a simple solution - to not do it. As has been stated before
 * Sometimes [admins] have to vote against something [being valid] because including it isn't worth the trouble it could/will cause.
 * I'm not entirely convinced that the issue with branching/nonlinear stories is validity, however, I think it's them having story pages. The proposal to deal with everything as "according to one account" works perfectly fine, we do it all the time, but I'm just not convinced that what's presented here in terms of story summary is a clear solution.


 * Cite source template, great idea, huge help. Flow charts on pages to help organize readers. Very helpful. I don't know how I can express my true feelings about Search for the Doctor without coming across harsh. It obviously took a large amount of time and effort, and it doesn't impact me in any negative way. But I just can't see it as a viable path forward for writing plot summaries for branching path stories. I just now tested whether you can have your markers link to other markers on the page (didn't think you could, but it was worth a try) and you can't. I guess we could do a Recursion style workaround, maybe, but that's just a headache for everyone trying to write one of these stories. As soon as one of these stories gets moderately complicated a user will be constantly scrolling up and down the page (or, indeed, if they just want to go through each path), and there's no clear relationship between the markers - you don't inherently know that 5 is related to 0 because you can't see the flowchart at all times. I think this is a horrible approach to covering these sorts of stories and this issue is my biggest holdup with just pushing for validation.


 * I've thought about having a series of subpages attached to each story page, along with flowcharts on these pages showing the relationships between the "markers" and allowing you to navigate to any other "marker" from any subpage. The main issue is that trees don't work on mobile, iirc, so it would have to be some sort of css + image thing which is a headache for any user who wants to write up a summary for a branching path story.


 * But even this wouldn't solve the issue of video games if we still treat gameplay as narrative (nor would "according to one account solve validity under this issue, btw). The issue here is that there are a rather small number of states each branching path book moves through, though it might eventually loop through them. This.... isn't true with video games. You can do quite a bit more. So we have to fundamentally reverse the ruling in Thread:176459. Which we can do, and I'm all for. But let's be clear that it's a bit more involved.


 * Anyhow, so obviously the FASA books shouldn't be allow--
 * Yes, this is a novel about the Doctor and his companions attempting to stop someone from changing the past by allowing the South to win the Civil War.
 * What. Okay, I'm listening.


 * Alright, reading through the Rebel's Gamble section I think I'm skeptical of validity based on the "questions" mechanic. I need to know more about that before committing.


 * Modules shouldn't be valid, they're not works of fiction per se. They're OOU descriptions of how a GM should set up a specific IU fictional scenario, it's the latter that's the work of fiction. (Though they may provide fictional elements to convey these details to the GM, in the case above the biography of Carruthers.) Coverage is fine. Though, you know, /glances at where we are/ I'm sure many of us have GMed before, so we all have our own strong opinions on this topic. Najawin ☎  03:39, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * So from my understanding the questions mechanic is basically like, at some point the Doctor stops and asks Dr. Jenner a bunch of questions, at which point you're meant to read the end of the book. Then on occasion someone in the story will ask you a question or you'll need to state a fact and the solution was in Dr. Jenner's rants. Thus basically you're supposed to have a really good memory of that part of the book so you can pick the right path.


 * On the topic of the visual novel, there's really some debate which could be had about all content which might have the GAME prefix. Is Search For the Doctor a GAME? Do we want to make a new prefix for board games? For the RPG stuff?


 * The only precedent I can think of is that Attack of the Graske used to have (TV story) but now it doesn't. OS25🤙☎️ 04:25, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * ....That doesn't seem to line up with the screenshot. Weird if true! Probably valid if true. I'd really like more info still. Gonna beg off committing on that issue at this time. Najawin ☎  04:35, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Having looked into things, I think I have to push back on the Savour of Time thing. This is the quote I was referencing with Amorkuz:


 * "...all stories with multiple endings, or indeed mushy middles, are invalid. Well, this is a case of a mushy middle. It's all good and dandy to talk about the differences being confined to the dialogue. But this game is almost exclusively dialogue, infinitely variable (and not very smartly written and executed) dialogue. Worse than that, dialogue that is sometimes skipped as a matter of bug. The page clearly states that for one of the tasks, if you do not solve it fast enough, the Doctor solves it for you. This is not an "Easter-egg" difference. This is the matter of who saved the world, so to say."


 * I just don't see how reading this as very specific to Saviour and not to Lonely Assaassins is an incorrect reading. Lonely is not exclusively dialogue options, and said dialogue options do not effect the plot or ending. Osgood doesn't save the day for you if you pick the wrong options, as far as I know.


 * I'll also note that while the natural reading of the LEGO Dimensions forum is that any video game can be called non-valid, I don't think that was the intention per se. So I'd think that was the reason there was no retconning of older, less-current games, especially as I think by then said games were offline. OS25🤙☎️ 04:25, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't disagree that Amorkuz's comment was specific to Saviour, I specifically said that people citing the talk page might have been wrong to do so. You went further and said:
 * then-admin Amorkuz originally stated that alternate dialogue options are only excluding features in titles where the entire game is typing out dialogue options. [...] in reality, it was directly stated that invalidating this story based on branching dialogue options was a one-off thing.

This is not true. It's the difference between: (as a one off thing, making a ruling), and (ruling that this is a one off thing). Subtle distinction, but an important one. Which is why I mentioned it briefly. Najawin ☎  04:50, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Right. Thoughts.


 * Do you think everything listed in this post should remain invalid on Tardis Wiki?
 * No. That would be silly. I do, however, believe that everything listed in this post should be valid sources on Tardis Wiki.


 * On Fiction Modules
 * Now, there seem to be rather a few people saying that these are not works of fiction, and that they fail r1. I think, with a little bit of logic, this can be easily rebutted.
 * So, these are, in fact, works. This is an undisputable fact. The question is, are they fiction? I will answer this in a roundabout route, which is to say: Non-fiction is defined by not being fiction. Anything that is not fiction is non-fiction. Non-fiction describes events that have happened, or do happen, or will happen, in real life. Are fiction modules non-fiction? Did Lord Rollo the Time Lord really exist in real life? The answer to that is no! So, if fiction modules are not, in fact non-fiction, then by indisputable logic, they must be fiction! And, therefore, they pass rule 1.


 * Additional comments
 * Doctor who and the micro:bit was, I believe invalidated for breaking the fourth wall. I'm only three minutes into it at the moment, as can be seen at Julia Hardy (in-universe), but I'll comment on this once I'm further in, unless it's decided that this topic is, in fact, for another time.
 * I'm not even going to attempt to comment on Battle for the universe.


 * Have a nice day, Aquanafrahudy ☎  09:27, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I will collect all my thoughts about this subject at a later date, but I thought I should point out that it is possible to link to different Markers in plot sections. @Najawin, I think your testing at Search for the Doctor was foiled because you linked to the headings "Marker Five" and "Marker Two" but they actually exist at "Marker 5" and "Marker 2". Borisashton ☎  11:12, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

This is quite well-reasoned. I am particularly in support of Lonely Assassins being considered a valid source, and I think most of the other video games should be considered valid as well, given the suggestions for slightly differing paths given in the main post. Moosana ☎  16:09, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh boy do I have a lot of thoughts on this subject.


 * I am gonna come right off the bat and say that, firstly, @OttselSpy25 deserves applause for this mega opening post. He has not only created such a beast of a thread it has taken a couple of reading sessions for me to get through, what with its thorough analysis of the different series and how best to feasibly cover these sources, he has gone to the effort to actually test these proposals to ensure they work.


 * I completely support the validation of branching narratives, as this is been a thorn in my side for a while. I don't care if it takes a lot of effort to do, our validity policies shouldn't be based on something as arbitrary as "it's too much work". I do want "fiction modules" and their ilk to be valid, but I have a lingering feeling that may be better suited to another discussion (though ideally I'd rather not see that as it would take a lot of work to create another large OP like this one).


 * Where to begin with my minor questions and thoughts on the matter...


 * I find it extraordinarily strange that stories with any sort of variable content, such as WC: The Runaway, where literally the only difference between playthroughs is the position of your POV camera, are invalid due to being a "multi-path". This makes absolutely no sense, when we cover Shada (TV story), Shada (short story) (this one doesn't have a page yet but it does exist), Shada (webcast), Shada (audio story), and Shada (novelisation) all 100% equally. So the Wiki's policies say that we can cover five different versions of the same story, some even with a different Doctor in them, but as soon as a video game has a bit of dialogue as an easter egg, that becomes too much work for us and thus invalid? Just... no.
 * In fact, this is a bit of a problem. When I found that multi-path narrative games are invalid a few years back, I, so stupidly(!), did not realise that "easter egg dialogue = multi-path narrative", so you'll find I have incorporated games with such easter egg dialogue as valid. I didn't realise this "mistake" (I will be putting this in bunny ears as the culpability of the mistake is completely with the policy, let's be real) until I read @Ottselspy's earlier drafts of this OP.
 * This conflation is absolutely unintuitive, even for an experienced editor like me. Y'see, what I define as "multi-path games" are games with actual differing endings (or similar). I watch YouTubers such as Jacksepticeye, where he plays multi-path horror games such as The Mortuary Assistant, which actually has different paths based on the actions of the character you play, so for an example, if you explore the basement of the mortuary, you are shown a flashback of the character's life a few years before, which you get trapped in, like a nightmare, and you have to escape. That is a multi-path game, not "you can ask a NPC a question, unconnected to the plot, and it will give you an answer".
 * And frankly, saying that multi-paths are not narratives is a bloody insult to anyone familiar with video games. If anything, they are supernarrative or something. I really dislike policies historically where they have been written first, with justification coming (often much) later.


 * One concern I have — although its implications have yet to be anywhere nearly remotely realised in any video game AFAIK, let alone a DWU game — is what to do with NPCs that could use AI to generate dialogue. This is an issue for coverage, but I am not sure how to deal with it; it may be best if we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, although I feel planning out such a development may be worth thinking about now.


 * Another concern I have are non-narrative video games. Such a concept is few and far between, with the only example that I know of being Untitled (U.N.I.T. website video game), where you control a missile and you can decide to detonate it (or not). There is no plot to it, so really, it isn't a multi-path narrative as there is no narrative to begin with. Shouldn't that be valid, even without validating multi-paths? And what happens if the BBC creates a fully explorable TARDIS control room in ? Surely that would be valid, as it is essentially a 3D, interactive, feature/illustration.


 * Another question I have is clarification about Terror Moon and Race Against Time having their time loop shenanigans be covered as "plot" but with sources like The Adventure Games and Doctor Who and the Rebel's Gamble are just "gameplay". Is this because in the latter two examples the character gets killed by an enemy but not in a way that triggers a game over?


 * I feel, historically, the reasons for not covering any Doctor Who tie-in websites were given the "Worlds in Time treatment" of absolute non-coverage except for an occasional behind the scenes note, but what was worse is that there was no other Wiki covering it; all because it had limited and curated user generated content, which therefore meant absolutely nothing deserved coverage, except where editors ignored that because it didn't suit them. The reason I bring this is up is because many of the websites rely on the context of you being a reader of whoisdoctorwho.co.uk; I want to know how this thread will effect coverage of this. I doubt it will in any significant way, but I wanna be sure.


 * I do have some interest on prefixes and dab terms. While DYD novels are games, I would feel much better for them to remain being covered as PROSE, not GAME s . This also connects to my work with alternate reality games, where some are covered as games, some are covered individually by the constituent parts (which is a complete misunderstanding of how ARGs bloody work) and thus are covered by each part's respective medium (e.g. a mix of PROSE and AUDIO and so on); ideally, we should create a whole new prefix and dab term system for them, perhaps rather intuitively as ARG and "(alternate reality game)". But more on this another day.
 * What is currently worth discussing is "(game)". Some pages have that term, while others are under "(board game)"; frankly, if we can do "(video game)" for most games, then we should extend that precedent officially to board games and TCGs and allow "(board game)" and "(trading card game)"/"(card game)" more freely.


 * As for covering information from RPG sourcebooks, I mean, I have already added info to some pages. Just look at Skaniska Incident, which was featured as a mission in Defending the Earth: The UNIT Sourcebook; I've added info solely from the mission briefing type thingy to the article, and... there is no problem there that will make the entire website combust.


 * One question I have which is an extension of Battle for the Universe are those snakes and ladders-style games inside annuals, that are the same medium as BftU, but lack the optional characters and such, with the only variances being "you get sucked into a wormhole, go back three spaces"/"you hop on a passing comet and go forward three spaces" depending on how lucky you are with a dice roll.


 * While I know it won't be under the scope of this thread, stage plays remain a frustrating part of "variable content" narratives. In an ideal world, we'd get the treatment and be given official DVD releases of the stage plays, however we don't have that luxury, so we'd realistically rely on a script. Except script releases are few and far between, and perhaps not even reliable with immersive experiences, given their fluid nature. Just a thought or so, y'know?


 * Also, @Najawin, you said this:
 * I just now tested whether you can have your markers link to other markers on the page (didn't think you could, but it was worth a try) and you can't.
 * This isn't true. You can type out  Marker 1  on the source's page, or one other pages, you can do  Marker 1''  for precise citing. This ain't an issue. We could even streamline this process and integrate it into !


 * I think that this is everything that I can think of. Sorry if this is a long reply! Just a topic I am particularily invested in. 16:35, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * A lot to talk about here Epsilon! To answer your question about video game deaths, it basically comes down to if a narrative explanation is given as per the "reset" happening. In a video game, when you fall down a pit and the screen fades to black before restoring you to a checkpoint, there is no narrative justification given. You didn't time travel back in time, you didn't restore yourself with magic - the game reset you because you messed up. Some games (see: Undertale) do justify a narrative reason for such things. In the same way, some Find Your Fate novels will try to make the reset part of the story (You rewind time! Go back to 1) but most will simply make it part of the game and nothing else. (You failed. Go back to 1 to try again) and others will even just say THE END with no other commentary. I think the difference is very impactful per how we cover the difference.


 * I also want to bring up that with fiction modules, there could be an argument made that we are actually covering the fiction produced during gameplay rather than the module itself. It's simply convenient that the modules in these cases tend to give a very detailed description of the unified portions of every single campaign. So we'd be covering said campaigns under the "shared elements" logic used when creating Human (Attack of the Graske) and Companion (Worlds in Time) etc. OS25🤙☎️ 17:01, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah, thank you for pointing that out Boris and Epsilon. I'm still not sure this is ideal, given how convoluted the overall structure can get and how I think users should have a bird eye view of the entire plot structure, but if this is the best we can do I'm willing to accept it.


 * As for the idea that modules are fiction, let me push back on that very strongly. They absolutely describe things that take place in the real world as key components of them, even in the main places that you might think are fictional. To whit:
 * The Iytean Menace is a fairly intricate adventure. [...] The characters in this adventure are [...] The adventurers learn [...] The remainder of the adventure deals with [...]
 * Moreover, simply talking about things that don't refer in our reality does not a work of fiction make. R1 is specifically used to disallow statements made by showrunners about their intent if it's not in the episode, for instance. But their musings on Doctor Who related stuff is still statements about fiction, it doesn't refer to anything IRL. It's just not a fictional work for the purposes of R1. Najawin ☎  17:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah, sorry, I'm afraid I wasn't clear. I think that the OOU modules fail r1 and should be invalid. I was talking about the in universe ones. Aquanafrahudy  📢  19:03, 31 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Before I write up my thoughts, I just want to say thanks to OS25 for putting together such a comprehensive and enjoyable to read OP.


 * In general, I feel that all of the sources discussed in this thread, other than the final 2 (the FASA's The Doctor Who Role Playing Game and Battle for the Universe), should be valid for the reasons presented using the framework and systems discussed. I feel that this should be extended to all Find Your Fate, Decide Your Destiny and Choose the Future books as the examples used in the OP from these series have convinced me that the coverage of their entire series is reasonable. Similarly, the discussion of Doctor Who and the Rebel's Gamble has convinced me that both it and Doctor Who and the Vortex Crystal should be valid. Also similarly is that The Edge of Reality which I've heard is so similar to The Edge of Time that, if we validate one, we should validate the other as well. There are some other things listed at but I don't feel that I know enough about these to comment at this time.


 * Regarding both FASA's The Doctor Who Role Playing Game and Battle for the Universe, I'd like each of these to all be valid, but I don't think we should do it in this thread. I feel that we need more time to hash out a framework for coverage and should revisit them in future.


 * In particular, with FASA's The Doctor Who Role Playing Game, I'd like to discuss this alongside other TTRPGs (Table Top Role Playing Games) such as Time Lord, Adventures in Time and Space: The Roleplaying Game and The Roleplaying Game: Second Edition. As both an avid player and game master of these sort of games, I have my own complex thoughts here, and I also think that the way we cover these games in the behind the scenes aspect also needs looking at.


 * Similarly, with Battle for the Universe, I would like to discuss this alongside other board games. In particular, I think theres a case for the validity of Doctor Who: The Interactive Electronic Board Game which we don't yet have an article for, and there are many other board games worth discussing as well.


 * As for where to draw the line in general, I think that this should very much be a case by case thing with individual discussions for each source or set of sources. Hard boundaries are how we end up in situations like this where there are things that really should be covered mixed in alongside other, much more complex things but with all being dissallowed. While there is currently a decent backlog of these sources to get through, once this backlog is cleared, new multi-path/"multi-path" sources don't release that often so debating them when that happens should be fine. Specifically regarding any future sources that would warrant a discussion under this, I feel that the editor creating the page should use their best judgement to look at similar cases and decide whether the source should start out as valid or invalid. If people disagree on this judgement, only then should a debate be started. For example, if The Runaway 2 released with the same mechanics as The Runaway, assuming that this thread validates the existing source, its sequel could be created as valid and discussed if deemed necassary. On the other end, if The Roleplaying Game: Third Edition were to release, assuming that existing roleplaying games remain invalid, this would be created as invalid and discussed if necassary.


 * Regarding my template, it is nearly ready and I expect to start its forum thread within the lifespan of this thread. I would like to point out that, based on my reading of some early drafts of this OP, I added support for citing markers that I feel makes it a little easier for editors and readers than the examples using the template in the OP. Full details are at Template:Cite source, but the gist is that typing  (PROSE: )  produces the following:
 * (PROSE: )
 * There is also a way to just display the marker without the source name, although it might be preferable to not use the template here as the extra collapsible isn't really necessary:
 * (PROSE:, )
 * Having now read the full OP, I plan to add support for other systems of multi-path citations such as "paragraphs", "outcomes" and page numbers (but with them displaying next to the source name, not in the collapsible bit as is currently possible), as well as the option to put free-form text in this section which could help in other scenarios ("(GAME: Attack of the Graske: good ending)" could be a viable way to cite these scenarios accurately).


 * Najawin mentioned, stating that he doesn't think it works on mobile. While this is currently true, Fandom recently released mobile CSS support making mobile trees a possibility. In fact, I have all of the required code ready to steal take and adapt for use on Tardis, crediting the original authors in the process. I just haven't got around to it yet. I'm not sure that this is the best option, however, as some of the diagrams are very complicated and isn't always the easiest to use. Another option would be to use Extension:ImageMap which is what is used to make different parts of the main page Transmat graphic go to different pages. This is potentially even harder to use, though.


 * I think that that's all of my current thoughts. Bongo50   ☎  19:12, 31 May 2023 (UTC)