Forum:Temporary forums/Changing the Spoiler Policy

Main discussion
Right now, Tardis:Spoiler policy forbids any information about future releases from the wiki. The sole exception is series pages, where anything goes. But this approach is unworkably out of date for a few reasons:
 * For almost a year, the top trending search on this wiki was [REDACTED], an actor who we still don't even have a page for! By catering to extreme spoilerphobes, we're failing a vast majority of our users, who do want to read about future cast and crew on the wiki.
 * The BBC puts an enormous amount of effort into promoting these announcements. Someone who sees the end of The Power of the Doctor without knowing about [REDACTED] just isn't experiencing the franchise the way it's intended to be experienced; we shouldn't be bending over backwards to serve them to the exclusion of all others.
 * Regarding major character announcements, if I hadn't been spoiled by the news and the cover of Doctor Who Magazine, I'd have been spoiled by the ads and article links that appear in our own sidebar! When we got the point of building specific loopholes for Fandom, that should have been an indication that the spoiler policy needed a larger rethink.

That said, I don't think we should throw out the concerns of spoilerphobic readers and editors entirely. The solution can be achieved very simply by drawing a line between two types of spoiler: official spoilers, which come from press releases, Doctor Who Magazine interviews, and other official announcements; and unofficial spoilers such as rumours, leaks, sightings, off-the-record comments, and so on, even if these are reported in news outlets.

I suggest we allow official spoilers only on the following pages, each marked with :
 * 1) Pages for new cast and crew. If someone comes to the wiki and searches for an actor who hasn't debuted yet, they're looking for spoilers.
 * 2) "Spoiler" subpages for established cast and crew, using our new Tardis:Subpage policy.
 * 3) Talk pages for -marked pages.

Let me explain #2. An example would be David Tennant/Spoilers. That subpage won't duplicate any information from David Tennant; it'll only cover spoilery official announcements. When that information is no longer a spoiler, it can be copy-pasted to the main page. (If the subpage is then empty and no longer needed, a delete tag can be added, and an admin can merge the edit histories.) The subpage will be linked from the main page with, placed after the last paragraph of the article's lead section:

The advantage of using a subpage is spoilerphobes can still browse the wiki without fear. If we just put spoilers on the main page of a returning cast member, a spoilerphobe wouldn't be able to read David Tennant without spoiling themselves; with subpages, they can. Nor would the presence of the template and subpage link spoil that David Tennant is returning to the TV show: David Tennant/Spoilers might just describe an upcoming Big Finish appearance!

There'd still be no unofficial spoilers (rumours etc) on these pages, and like existing policy, absolutely no spoilers on in-universe pages. Thoughts? – n8 (☎) 20:40, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I wholeheartedly agree with this proposal. I have two minor issues with it though: one, I think spoilers should be allowed in sandboxes, as it allows us to draft new pages. I received quite a shock when I found out that I couldn't do this. Secondly, I'm not 100% convinced about spoiler subpages, but I am willing to compromise on then if it means we can slacken our policies.
 * Furthermore, if this proposal is agreed upon, I have several pages I would like to be imported onto this Wiki about people like REDACTED. 17:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm only half in here. I do believe there should be pages for the incoming Mr. You Know Who and Miss You Know Who etc. (really I'm not sure if the publicly announced casting of new actors should even be counted as a spoiler). However, I don't think that Spoiler subpages are necessary. I'm not sure exactly how we would do it but surely there are ways to cover up spoilery text on pages as is done on numerous other websites (TVTropes for one). MrThermomanPreacher ☎  18:13, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The sole exception being series pages is not quite right, as we also do have List of future releases and List of future Big Finish releases, but that’s besides the point. I completely agree with this proposal. It’s entirely pointless that this wiki has to cater to spoilerphobes to such a degree that we can't cover something that we know happens in about a whole year’s time. Again, this is something that will probably only continue to be the case for this franchise as it grows bigger, and the old archaic system just does not work anymore. This system is flawed on multiple fronts. We need to keep up. Danniesen ☎  18:16, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * AFAIK, those two "list of future..." pages also violate our current spoiler policies. They technically should be deleted, which is just so, so counterintuitive. 18:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh never mind. 18:33, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal, and I agree it's rather mad we don't have pages for [him] and [her] - they've been announced, we even have photos (and video) of them in costume. People will be searching for information, even said information is sparse. We have a page for Series 14, which is in production, (and a page for Series 15!) so why not for the 2 leading actors starring in it? FractalDoctor ☎  18:54, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * (I think technically you're still not allowed to mention those two things by name in this forum. Which is ridiculous, but c'est la vie.)


 * As a procedural issue, obviously I would prefer if Czech were here to voice his own views, given he's the main voice against loosening the spoiler policy. But putting that concern to the side, I think I'm against spoiler sandboxes. Too often do I look at sandboxes of other users to get a feel for what their editing priorities are for me to think that other users don't do the same. And while I don't care about spoilers, I can't imagine that all others feel the same.


 * I'm also unconvinced about DWM spoilers. These are nowhere near as publicized as the "press release" style announcements and it's far from clear to me that the average fan is expected to know what's being said in DWM, while they're certainly expected to know about the four major [REDACTED]s, as well as some of the minor [REDACTED]s. While we can't see the more recent spoiler discussions, I note that Czech brought up a similar point in 2011 with no clear resolution.


 * Something not discussed is spoilers on forums. This is, quite frankly, imperative to our work, and it's stunning to me that people haven't discussed this yet. We will forever be playing a game of catch-up unless we can discuss stories and eras before they come out and can plan for them. Part of our discussion in Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Updating the main page & theme has stalled out because we simply cannot discuss updating the theme further without a reconsideration of our spoiler policy! (Do we update our theme for the thing happening in November now? If so, we need to discuss specifics on how to do so. Both things require tweaks to our spoiler policy. I think this is a really important question to answer!) Lest you think this is an isolated incident, let me assure you it is not. Can I Help You? was announced prior to our forums going down, and I asked an admin if I should make a thread about it at that time, since it had implications for our merchandising rules. I was told that if it was ruled to be a (valid) story in that thread we would have been retroactively been violating our spoiler rules the entire time. As a result it was put off, and here we stand, two years later. Najawin ☎  19:10, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Wup-up-up. Setting aside any wider changes, these "REDACTED"s are getting silly. I have half a mind to declare that, whatever other changes we may or may not create consensus around, this specific Forum thread might be exempt from normal T:SPOIL rules under the same terms as a series page with a banner, so that we can, you know, actually know what we're talking about. Does anyone here disagree with this?


 * I am mindful of the fact that this could potentially disincentivise any actual, personally-committed spoilerphobes from participating, which would not be ideal, but the fact of the matter is that I am not convinced we have any significant numbers of such people within the editing community in the first place, and tying ourselves up in knots to accommodate purely imaginary cases is sort of the whole problem here. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 19:16, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I pinged Shambala in discussions, and I know she doesn't see much point in changing the policy. But I don't think she's that spoiler averse? Up to you. I feel like I can understand everyone. Najawin ☎  19:20, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I support these proposed changes, and I second what Scrooge said. I'm not entirely convinced that these types of spoilerphobes actually even exist anymore, and even if they do, it seems ridiculous to center our spoiler policy around such a tiny group of people in the fandom. Pluto2 ☎ 19:21, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * As a casual reader of TARDIS Wiki, I've always thought the Spoiler Policy was bizarre and convoluted, so this would be a major improvement. It's massively counterintuitive to not host pages for future actors and crew. There should be a much more straightforward delineation between real-world and in universe articles, when it comes to the Spoiler Policy.


 * Imagine this hypothetical for a second: an actor gets cast as the Doctor, but then for some reason, are fired, and have all their scenes reshot. Would the original actor be forever ineligible for getting an article, because they didn't appear in a story? Or would they become eligible, due to no longer being 'a spoiler'? This is a somewhat contrived scenario, I'll admit, but then again, so is the policy. And I'm sure there's plenty of similar issues you can raise with it.


 * I've never seen the idea of a Spoiler subpage anywhere - though it could work, it may also become a lightning rod for bad faith actors, spammers, etc. Even if such pages were strictly managed, I'm unsure if it's in the wiki's best interest to facilitate a culture of leak-sharing. Why not just use notice templates, to sign-post spoiler-y article sections?


 * Another random idea I'll throw out there: what if articles about (officially announced) future characters were to be permitted, as long as they are exclusively written from a real-world perspective? This approach would have its own set of issues, no doubt, but I think it could work. And when the character makes their debut and the article type shifts, you'd already have a BTS section pre-written. Not an unattractive option, if you ask me. TheGreatGabester ☎  19:22, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * To answer Scrooge, yes I am for removing the Spoiler policy’s effects in this here space, The Forums. It’s ridiculous. Danniesen ☎  19:27, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

(Does the current policy prevent, say, the Russell T Davies page from mentioning that he's showrunner again? Because there's zero mention of it. Same with David Tennant and any mention of the 14th Doctor on his page. Again, information is somewhat sparse, but it'd be weird to someone looking on the Tennant page to not find a single mention of the fact he's the current Doctor again and will be for 3 specials, etc.) FractalDoctor ☎  19:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC) Okay, that's it, I'm implementing a T:SPOIL suspension for this page, effective immediately. Which will save me the trouble of having to redact User:FractalDoctor's comment above, because while you can discuss Tennant's return based on The Power of the Doctor (and arguably Davies's, insofar as he was technically the producer for those twenty post-regenerative seconds…), you wouldn't, in a spoiler-free space, have been allowed to discuss the existence of the three specials!

Now, as you were.Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 19:34, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, but thanks Scrooge MacDuck. Unintentional on my part! It does sort of highlight how bizarre the policy worked/works on occasion. Even if I hadn't mentioned 3 specials, it's common knowledge about Tennant and Davies (along with NPH and Tate) and I don't see why this can't be added to David Tennant's page, for example, even if it's literally just "David Tennant is the 14th Doctor and will star alongside Catherine Tate in the upcoming 60th anniversary specials." FractalDoctor ☎  19:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Further, even if you could not mention the 3 specials, you would still be fully able to talk about Tennant being the Doctor again going forward as well as RTD being showrunner going forward, outside of Power, as that is how it is currently. Danniesen ☎  19:55, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I disagree with @Najawin about excluding spoilers from DWM. The whole point of coming to a Wiki — aka an online encyclopedia — is to learn more information! Removing a great deal of it because it isn't as well-known... is frankly silly and goes against this Wiki's very remit. And besides, we need to allow DWM spoilers, as it is actively hurting our coverage of DWM itself. Look at lots of pages for the most recent issues, and you'll see that they're missing any cover images (because Gatwa and co. are on them) and half their contents are redacted (because of Gatwa and co.). Let's not start making up random middle grounds for officially released information, okay? 20:14, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. If we do this, we do it all the way. Danniesen ☎  20:23, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, calling DWM not as "well-known" as press releases, in my opinion, is incorrect, as Panini had supply issues due to the sheer demand of DWM 584. It sold out everywhere! I wasn't even able to get a copy myself. 20:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, I remember that. It was in stores for, what, 3 hours before everything was sold out… Danniesen ☎  20:27, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I fully support this proposal, including the caveat of not including unofficial leaks, and of putting all spoilers under tags and subpages. Besides improving the average user's experience (which is arguably the most important detail), this would also allow BTS sections of a couple of pages to not lie. For example, the BTS section of Man (The Daft Dimension 579) and the BTS section of The World Tree (audio story) would both, on a sane wiki, point out they were intended to be Ncuti Gatwa. (Wait, would we have BTS/Spoilers?)

Cousin Ettolrhc ☎  20:37, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Epsilon makes some great points. If news is announced via DWM, it's usually spread quite quickly over Twitter and social media, picked up by news sites, Radio Times articles, etc. The point is that news spreads outwards from DWM, and should also find itself here. FractalDoctor ☎  20:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I don’t really see there being a valid alternative - accept all official sources, or don’t bother. Any attempt to figure out some kind of editorially approved middle-ground/strategy would probably lead to more confusion. Keep it as simple to understand, and enforce, as possible. TheGreatGabester ☎  21:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

So, I very much agree with this. The spoiler policies are actively inhibiting the wiki's purpose to have information for readers. Ncuti Gatwa (exhales) was the top suggestion whenever you clicked the search bar for several months, indicating that people were expecting information on him, yet we still can't have a page.

Additionally, most of this info is already prominent in the news and internet especially in DW circles, so we are catering to a hypothetical person who is interested enough in Doctor Who to use Tardis Wiki, but somehow has never heard of any recent Doctor Who news from anywhere else. I highly doubt such a person exists, but even if they do, if they care enough to avoid any news, it is their fault for visiting a Doctor Who-focused website in spite of this, especially when this website does provide spoiler warning banners. This also applies to the idea that "the existence of a spoiler warning is itself a spoiler", especially when we only allow "official spoilers". Any other wiki I can think of has a spoiler banner at the top of a page even if it already exists, it was the reader's choice to visit the website and their choice to scroll further.

Anyways, I agree this also should be extended to user pages and forums. As has been pointed out, we ought to amend T:SPOIL FORUM in order to discuss coverage of future topics. Obviously, such threads would have the banner and should have vaguer titles with something like [SPOILER] in them. And in-universe pages should not have any indications of spoilers. I also agree DWM should be counted as official, we already cite it plenty in real world articles.

There is one point I would like to raise, though: we must clarify to what degree conjecture is allowed for official spoilers. Thankfully I can use a real example here now. The trailer released on Christmas featured what very evidently appears to be the Wrarth Warriors and a Meep. I think this is fair to say on a spoilery page, especially since the newest DWM alluded to "characters familiar to DWM readers" appearing in the trailer, and I believe there was even confirmation from a crew member. (Though in general, I think most would agree simple crew member statements do not constitute official spoilers.) However, despite the conversation online and seeming likelyhood of this, it would be too speculative to say, as of now, that this Meep is indeed Beep. Since only real world pages would even have spoilers, this probably would only go on Series 14 (Doctor Who). With lack of absolute confirmation, even regarding if these species are what they appear to be, what would be appropriate to say on this page? Chubby Potato ☎  21:28, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Good question, Potato. Right now, both official and unofficial spoilers are allowed on series pages, as long as there's proper sourcing of course; so citing Radio Times: "Is Beep the Meep David Tennant's new nemesis?" would absolutely still be allowed on Series 14 (Doctor Who), but not on David Tennant/Spoilers, where frankly it wouldn't belong anyway.


 * Regarding user sandbox pages and forum discussions, I would personally prefer we not allow spoilers on those, for the reasons Najawin argued. Loosening the guidelines a bit doesn't mean we should actively turn it into a minefield for spoilerphobes (as has now happened to this thread). Instead the Howling namespace should be used for those use cases: that way the URL will make it very clear that spoilerphobes should stay away. There's already nothing in the current rules stopping us from using the Howling for discussions like Howling:How to cover upcoming story? and sandboxes like Howling:Ncuti Gatwa. – n8 (☎) 22:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Excepting that those Howling threads would not be binding forum threads, which is what's necessary for our work in the two examples I mentioned.


 * Re:DWM, may I remind people that the UK is not the sole country in the world, and actually makes up the minority of the show's fanbase at this point in its history? It's shocking, but true, and in the rest of the world DWM effectively doesn't exist. Even if it weren't the case, we're not just editing for the fan who goes out and buys DWM, we're editing for the casual viewer as well. With that said, I cede the point about the DWM pages themselves. Najawin ☎  23:08, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Even better! If DWM isn't available in certain territories, we are then spreading information in them to those readers. I feel that is actually a good thing to Wikify information that may be hard to come by due to region locking. 23:14, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Seconded! I know I’d like to know what the magazines have to say. Danniesen ☎  23:21, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, it exists, but it's digital only, and barely promoted, etc etc. But the point is that it's a distinct level of announcement from a press release. The average fan, indeed, the average viewer perhaps, is expected to know about Gatwa and Gibson, as well as Redgrave and wassisface. But I don't think they're expected to know about "Liverpool legions", or the mention of Mavic Chen. I don't see why we should conflate the two is all. Talk about it on the DWM pages with a spoiler template, sure. Off those pages? I'm less convinced. Najawin ☎  23:23, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the thing is that isn't really what the Howling is for. It just happens to be the only namespace allowing spoilers. I feel that necessitating that the title of sandboxes and forum threads contain [SPOILER] in their title, which should also obviously not contain spoilers itself, and the use of a warning banner would be adequate. We had to do it here after all. (By the way, when I said user pages, I meant sandboxes, actual User: pages should not have spoilers even with a warning.) I don't know if this is a great idea but since this whole forum system is built on subpages, perhaps there could be a spoiler area subpage of the forums (but the titles should still be censored).


 * [Update: Epsilon and Danniesen expressed the same sentiment as I wrote this]. To Najawin's point on DWM, well, I do not live in the UK and it is more difficult to find DWM here, which is exactly why I'd appreciate if it was covered on the wiki more. It is an official source even if it's less prominent than others, so I think it's a good idea to give it the same credence. I think both allowing spoilers on pages for its issues and citing it on real-world spoiler pages would be appropriate. Most of it would only also go on series overview pages anyway, which as Nate points out already contain unofficial sources that I would think, while noteworthy, are probably less important than DWM in terms of series info. Chubby Potato ☎  23:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I could potentially see that. But I'm going to have a hard time agreeing to create new pages for actors based solely on casting info in DWMs, for instance, or updating OOU pages outside of series pages/DWM pages with the info. (EG, suppose it said Wilf was secretly Frobisher the entire time. Would we update Bernard Cribbins' page to reflect this? I'm not thrilled with the idea.) Najawin ☎  23:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This whole conversation about DWM seems like a category error. The point of the distinction between official and unofficial spoilers isn't "we should only cover announcements that everyone has seen", it's "we shouldn't cover leaks and rumours". Information from DWM, such as BBC press material like "Letters from the Showrunner", obviously is not a leak or rumour; therefore, it's official, regardless of who can read it. Remember that Big Finish announcements also counting as official spoilers is an important feature of this proposal, and we could hardly argue that those are universal in their reach. Literally what would be the harm of creating pages for actors based on DWM? Even if those only pages would only be relevant for our users from the UK, it's still important that we serve those users…! – n8 (☎) 00:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * In regards to Najawin’s points: I think there’s a distinction to be made to do with the volume of information involved, and how wholly new the relevant subject matter is.


 * If DWM says: “Newcomer Actor X is set to appear in the next series as "Character X”, there’s a very limited amount of official information to work with. Those nuggets are going to be the “bread and butter” - if not the entirety - of the new article, and even the justification for the article’s existence.


 * Existing articles are an entirely different kettle of fish, and should probably be treated differently, too. Maybe it would make sense to put some kind of protocol in place; maybe “announced-yet-spoilery” information about the nature of the character’s return should be handled more carefully, but merely stating that the actor will return as that character is a different case. TheGreatGabester ☎  01:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Opinion from a so-called a spoilerphobe (I like to be surprised, sue me): People act like it's so hard to avoid spoilers and that everyone must have seen x thing on social media, but it really isn't the case. Maybe in the UK, sure, but for the rest of the world, all we have to do is hide relevant Doctor Who pages and block tags. And that's even if we have social media in the first place. It doesn't seem fair to expect people to read the wiki with one eye closed when the majority of the site is there to cover nearly 60 years worth of media. I like the fact that this is the one place where one doesn't have to try to avoid spoilers.


 * Having said that, this proposal is not a bad one and is actually very considerate to those who do not wish to be spoiled. As long as it from official BBC announcements only - no tweets from writers or actors or anything like that - I would not be against it. I am dubious about DWM, though. If it is accompanied by a press release, sure, but if it's just a random interview, I don't think it should be mentioned anywhere other than pages specifically designated to spoilers, such as series pages. If people have to buy a magazine to know about it, it's not big enough to risk spoiling people.


 * On an unrelated note, but still relevant to the spoiler policy. Is there anywhere we can put a notice so that people in the discussions know how to use the spoiler category. So many people put them in the default "General" category, and I think it's just because they don't realise there even are categories. LauraBatham ☎  00:59, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * It's good to hear an opinion from someone more sensitive to spoilers. As much as I think the policy needs to be relaxed, you voice it well that you still shouldn't have to try to avoid spoilers. But that's why I'm confused on your other remarks— the whole point is that any such information, e.g. from DWM, would be restricted to spoiler-tagged articles. Chubby Potato ☎  03:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Re:The accusation of a category error: Suggesting that a specific motivation, to whit,
 * The BBC puts an enormous amount of effort into promoting these announcements. Someone who sees the end of The Power of the Doctor without knowing about [REDACTED] just isn't experiencing the franchise the way it's intended to be experienced; we shouldn't be bending over backwards to serve them to the exclusion of all others.

Is applicable only to some official announcements and not others isn't a category error. I would also suggest that the third bullet point is in a similar boat, and I suspect that the first bullet point is more concerned with these major announcements than they are with the minor - as per the evidence stated in said bullet point! If these are the basis for which we're making the change we should think about what they actually entail. Najawin ☎  05:03, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks for explaining. From my view those bullet points were motivations for why we should cater to audiences interested in spoilers rather than exclusively targeting those sensitive to spoilers. What it actually means to cater to audiences interested in spoilers is a different question, which I believe is inclusive of DWM etc. – n8 (☎) 05:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * But there are a variety of different types of audiences interested in spoilers. This isn't an all or nothing proposition, spoilerphobes or spoilerfriendly. For example, those who are aware of Gatwa's casting but don't read DWM, nor are particularly interested in it. I note also that if these bullet points were intended to argue that we should cater to audiences who care about spoilers, they don't do a particularly good job doing so. Bullet point three, for instance, only points to a failure of our current spoiler rules and how they're an unreasonable ask. It doesn't really address how we should handle our audience at all. If this is how we're to interpret bullet point two it's probably a non sequitur. I think the argument is much stronger if we interpret these as mere reasons to reconsider the current spoiler rules as being failures on a fundamental level, rather than reasons to retailor them for a new audience. But I suspect I'm out voted on this. Najawin ☎  06:17, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * As long as the information is limited to real-world articles, and is officially announced in some form, you’re still putting fairly hard limits on what can and can’t be spoiled. I think this is a pretty well-balanced approach. TheGreatGabester ☎  11:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I think perhaps the biggest issue for me is a DWM announcement concerning an already established person we have a RW page for. Placing a spoiler tag on these itself spoils things for those who are spoiler averse, and DWM is, again, lower profile than the BBC press releases. I think we can reasonably expect everyone browsing this site to know about Tennant, Tate and Davies, if not Redgrave as well. Again, it's how the BBC expects you to engage with the franchise. But I'm not convinced that if they announced that, say, Georgia Moffett was returning in DWM that we should put that on her page. On the series page? Yes. On the DWM page? Sure. On her page? This is rather extreme imo. Najawin ☎  14:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I don’t think it’s possible to perfectly cater to everyone’s preferences. If you start drawing lines in the sand about what kinds of official sources are and aren’t allowed, it will become overly confusing, which is one of the reasons to change the policy in the first place (to reduce confusion).


 * Also, I wouldn’t dismiss spoiler tags so quickly. Yes, in one sense, they themselves act like a spoiler, but if it alerts a reader to stop reading further and find out too many details for their liking, that’s still a solid outcome. Otherwise, they would still stumble across the info, so why not throw a notice in there?


 * But also, I just don’t understand the aversion to DWM; they are a proper publication with editorial standards - I think they do care about preserving the viewing experience, it’s unlikely they’ll start throwing random tsunamis of TMI everywhere. TheGreatGabester ☎  14:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

When Big Finish announce cast lists and future boxsets, information is added to the Wiki on select pages, so why not DWM? FractalDoctor ☎  14:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Najawin, you say "I'm not convinced that if [DWM] announced that, say, Georgia Moffett was returning in DWM that we should put that on her page." I agree: we shouldn't put that information on Georgia Moffett; instead we should put it on Georgia Moffett/Spoilers! As I explicitly addressed in the OP, the existence of a spoiler subpage does not itself spoil things, because Georgia Moffett/Spoilers might also exist simply because of her future roles in Big Finish or similar. I agree with TheGreatGabester that DWM is just as careful and responsible as the BBC Press Office and that splitting hairs this narrowly would defeat the purpose of the policy simplification. – n8 (☎) 15:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Apologies, had just woken up and had forgotten about that. Still unconvinced, but the most obvious question then is one of implementation. Is Georgia Moffett/Spoilers linked on Georgia Moffett? If so we have the same issue.


 * I note also that this is not particular reticence surrounding DWM. It's more that I'm in favor of substantial reform surrounding spoilers in the form of BBC press releases and find reform past that to be a less compelling case. (Were I to argue against my own position, I would point out that this could be construed as in violation of the spirit of T:NPOV. Which is... True, but unlikely to come up.) Najawin ☎  15:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * [Edit conflict] Having heard @LauraBatham's perspective on the matter as a non-UK reader, how the Wiki is one of the only places on the Internet that can be spoiler free, I feel that using subpages to contain spoilery info on is the best move. While integration onto pre-existing pages may good good for some readers, we can also serve readers who want to read about David Tennant without stumbling across spoilers for the sixtieth.
 * Also, we need spoilery sandboxes, I'm sorry, even if we HAVE to do something like User:Epsilon the Eternal/SPOILERS 1, so anyone about to click is warned.
 * Also, if we only put spoilery info on pages about upcoming things that haven't debuted/subpages for things that have/and series pages, I'm not sure why we would only put DWM info on the latter example. It just seems completely arbitrary. 15:27, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Re where to link subpages... firstly, not knowing where to put said link is not a compelling argument against subpages, secondly, I have three ideas; a template like that goes at the top of an article with a link to the subpage and a warning; a new field in an infobox, e.g., |spoiler = /Spoilers; and at the top of the main section detailing said actor's career relating to Doctor Who.  15:31, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Politely Epsilon, but, what? I didn't ask where we place the link to the spoiler subpage. My point is that including a link to it at all on the main page itself constitutes spoilers. If the page was orphaned and you had to actively go looking for it by typing it into the bar I could see an argument? Or having a hub for the pages? But I can't see a world where linking Georgia Moffett/Spoilers on Georgia Moffett doesn't cause issues. Najawin ☎  16:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I disagree even more with your clarification. Yes spoilers may constitute spoilers, but that is in the most technical way and is quite frankly pedantic. Obfuscating that there are even spoilers is going to far; I doubt any reader will be that ignorant or upset that an actor may be returning to the DWU in any capacity.
 * Saying "Georgia Moffett will have a future contribution to the DWU, here's a link to the content on a separate page but you don't have to read it if you don't wanna be spoiled" is not a proper cruking spoiler. 16:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * This is what I was getting at - any version of a spoiler policy will create its own set of issues, even to a small degree. It’s unavoidable, and that’s just how it is. The question is, which issues are tolerable, and which issues are not? - no getting around that, there’s no perfect one-size-fits-all solution. TheGreatGabester ☎  16:43, 26 January 2023 (UTC)|

Moffett's perhaps a poor example for this because of Big Finish concerns, but, say, if Nick Hurran was coming back to direct I would see no daylight between "Hurran will have a future contribution to the DWU" and "Hurran is directing an episode in Series X". It's a distinction without a difference. Najawin ☎  17:03, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * That's a lack of imagination on your part, then. Russell T Davies/Spoilers in 2022 would have said he was coming back to showrun Doctor Who, but in 2017 it would have just said that he was doing illustrations for Now We Are Six Hundred! Sure, some cases may be more obvious than others, but I'll conjecture that the more obvious, the less people care – certainly, I can't imagine anyone leaving nasty comments about how it was ruined for them that Nick Hurran's name would be appearing in the credits. On other major Doctor Who communities such as the subreddits, behind-the-camera talent aren't even considered spoilers!


 * Regarding placement of the link to the spoiler subpage, as I discussed in the OP, I've already created, which I believe strikes a proper balance between noticeability and vagueness. – n8 (☎) 17:11, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * There's a reason I didn't mention Moffat or Davies! There are some situations for which there's ambiguity and some for which there isn't ambiguity. We need to account for the latter. I don't see why this is particularly controversial even, if this is honestly about striking a balance rather than a complete retooling towards those who want spoilers. Najawin ☎  17:27, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The wording in that “SpoilerLink” template is great, there’s your middle ground solution! Where would that go, at the tail end of the History section? TheGreatGabester ☎  17:35, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I’ve changed my mind, I get the appeal behind the Spoiler subpages now. TheGreatGabester ☎  17:37, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Cheers for the support! I suggest that it should go at the end of the real-world person's lead paragraph, since on many cast and crew pages we don't actually have Biography sections; but I'm definitely open to suggestions.


 * Najawin, the current state of affairs is that we frustrate spoilerphiles totally so we can satisfy spoilerphobes perfectly. My suggestion is that we instead frustrate spoilerphiles partially (by quarantining spoilers and not covering leaks) and frustrate spoilerphobes partially (by showing links to spoiler subpages). Would you care to propose an alternative for how we can satisfy both audiences perfectly? Because it seems like your criticism is that this proposal fails to meet an impossible standard. – n8 (☎) 18:05, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Quite honestly I feel the quarantining of spoilers and not covering leaks are lip service to the idea of "frustration". It's the barest minimum. I'm not suggesting that we satisfy both audiences perfectly. But I don't feel that this is a realistic compromise, in the sense that spoilerphiles don't lose anything meaningful from the ideal that we would cover as proper practice anyhow on real world pages. (That is to say, it would have never been appropriate to cover leaks on this wiki, unless these leaks were explicit production footage. I'm sure most of us are aware of the massive Timeless Child leaks, as well as the more recent leaks related to the specials. I don't think it would be appropriate for us as a wiki to cover this at all before the story has aired.) (With the caveat that this is stating proper practice of the wiki as the wiki currently exists, not some grand statement about my ideal view of the wiki.)

I want to stress again that I, personally, don't care about spoilers at all. It just makes me really uncomfortable when I know Czech had really strong opinions on this subject and he's not here to defend his position. (I know the three week time window was intended to make change happen quickly because we're so far behind, but in a way it makes me feel like we're not giving everyone a chance to respond, threads 2 years ago would be open for months.) Quite frankly I personally agree that crew shouldn't be considered a spoiler. But I don't think he would? There's a way to do this reform while minimizing the cross section of where spoilerphobes can actually interact with potential spoilers. And I don't see why it's controversial to try to be understanding of people who we know exist, even if we think they're unreasonable. Change the rules insofar as they prevent us from doing our jobs, sure. But as I said above, I just don't think the arguments presented suggest we should refocus our rules in favor of spoilerphiles, but rather that the rules as written are flawed. Perhaps that's the fundamental difference that we're just never going to overcome and we'll just keep talking past each other. Najawin ☎  18:33, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Unless I’m misunderstanding the proposal, leaks of any variety would still be completely disallowed on the Spoiler pages. However, those rules would need to be communicated: a template saying, “only officially revealed info may be added to this page”, something like that. Otherwise, some people might (understandably) get confused by the term ‘spoiler’, and start adding leaks everywhere. TheGreatGabester ☎  18:49, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Just to clear up any potential confusion, here's what T:RUMOUR says about the current scope of our policy on leaks / "rumours":

"Rumours are allowed on series pages, but they must be cited so that users can verify the page's claims. Citation of this kind is effected by reference tags around the source, like this: . All facts not confirmed by the BBC Press Office or members of the production crew in a formal interview must be placed within a section labeled "rumours" so that users may clearly understand what they are reading."

- Tardis:Spoiler policy


 * This paragraph isn't affected by my proposal, which doesn't change our treatment of series pages or allow rumours on any other pages. – n8 (☎) 19:26, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * To give my view as someone who is wary of spoilers, I support this proposal. Yes, to an extent the existence of a spoiler warning is itself a spoiler to some extent. But as others have pointed out, it doesn't give away what the spoiler in question is. And I feel that officially announced information should be on the wiki. The sub-page idea is a good way to do that in my opinion. Time God Eon ☎  21:19, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Another thing I’d mention: I’d say “the Howling”, if it comes back, should be totally devoid of spoiler restrictions. The name suggests that it’s supposed to be a bit of a Wild West, where anything goes - it’s a name which is rather evocative and cool - but it seems like that was never really the case(?) So yeah, maybe some specific rules concerning the Howling should be drawn up? TheGreatGabester ☎  17:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)


 * User:TheGreatGabester my mentioning of leaks a la the rather infamous Timeless Child leaks was not to suggest we codify that they not be allowed, as if this was a damning refutation of the proposal. It was instead to point out that Nate's statement that they weren't covered wasn't ceding anything. So it simply wasn't a serious way in which spoilerphiles were being frustrated in order to satisfy spoilerphobes in his attempted compromise. And I'm still not getting any which way this can be the case. How are spoilerphiles frustrated on real world pages in this compromise? (Compared to how this wiki would maximally satisfy them in the first place. We do have some level of editorial standards.) They have to click a link on existing cast/crew pages to see upcoming releases, but are notified that these releases exist by the presence of the link, as well as the fact that individual story pages don't exist, only series pages. That's it, as far as I can see.


 * I again note that nobody has actually argued for a refocusing of the rules on the spoilerphile, (bullet points 1-3 do not do this), and that this is not a black and white dichotomy. I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that there are US fans who keep up with BBC press releases but have little interest in DWM. Those of us who edit the wiki are the minority. Najawin ☎  18:42, 27 January 2023 (UTC)


 * You keep saying or implying that T:SPOIL barred the Timeless Child leaks from being posted on Series 12 (Doctor Who), but I quoted T:RUMOR and it doesn't say anything of the sort. Anyone could have cited an r/Gallifrey thread and put it in the rumours section of Series 12 (Doctor Who). – n8 (☎) 19:15, 27 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Najawin, I’d suspect people who are unbothered by BBC press releases and keep up with them, but are somehow bothered by tidbits from DWM, are themselves a pretty tiny minority. And the existence of a vaguely worded spoiler warning is surely better than no spoiler warning? Just because the rules might change, doesn’t mean the wiki will suddenly devolve into a cesspit of chaos. You can have faith that effort will be put in, to make sure the new system works. I’d argue that if there are ‘kinks’, you can’t iron them out of existence pre-emptively, and succumb to analysis paralysis : you actually have to let the process run its course, and then make tweaks along the way if necessary. TheGreatGabester ☎  19:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)


 * T:RUMOR explicitly states that they must be sourced. There's some ambiguity as to what that means, whether that's just any person anywhere saying that, or a semi-reputable publication. In practice it seems to mean the latter, hence my reference to editorial standards, at least for the last 4 years. (See our rumors section on S12 not discussing those leaks and only citing one non professional publication. Or for S13. Albeit, S11 is more of a mix.) Indeed, one such rumor that went around social media was removed from the myths section of Revolution of the Daleks (albeit the justification was because it was unsourced). So at the very least the issue is murky, if not an outright T:BOUND matter.


 * As for the idea that the people in my hypothetical are a small minority, let me remind everyone that we are the minority. We are heavily enfranchised fans who care way too much about this show. Our experiences are not normal. I suspect that they are the vast majority. Najawin ☎  20:07, 27 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, and what sources support this claim? Specifically, the claim that people who are unbothered by BBC press releases, yet are bothered by tidbits from DWM, are the majority? Sorry to be pedantic - I get how it feels when people are repeatedly disagreeing with you, and you want to stick up for yourself; I just feel that this point is rather tenuous. TheGreatGabester ☎  21:06, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

I did say it's a suspicion. But I think it's a well founded one. The majority of fans are casual and aren't actively engaging with DWM, and, again, most of them live outside the UK. With that said, it's effectively impossible for them to avoid press releases. The one nuance is whether or not they're bothered by tidbits from DWM as opposed to simply not seeking them out. Your mileage may vary, but I know a lot of people who actively avoid spoilers for media and want to minimize what they know going in. Especially among more casual fans of stuff. Najawin ☎  21:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if there was quite a sizeable portion of casual non-uk fans who don't even know DWM exists. In Australia, it is not widely sold in newsagents, and even the ones who do sell it don't get every copy (though I imagine you could get them to order it in). I didn't even know Big Finish existed until I started editing this wiki, over a decade after the main range started. Now, I agree that there are probably very few instances of major spoilers being revealed in DWM that aren't accompanied by a press release, but in the case of returning cast members, it could cause problems. If we have a link, say, at the top of Richard Franklin's page that said "spoilers", it is not unreasonable to think that the majority of casual fans are going to assume that means he has an upcoming television appearance as Mike Yates. However, I do think that Epsilon's suggestion of having a link to the subpage in the infobox may be a reasonable compromise. People are less likely to notice it when they are just looking up to see if the actor is still alive or checking their date of birth or whatever. Although, including it in the external links could be a good idea, too. But then we run the risk of making it too hard to find. LauraBatham ☎  00:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I still can’t wrap around my head that we are seriously debating whether or not to cover Doctor Who Magazine equally to the rest of the spoiler information you can get elsewhere just because the magazines may or may not be limited to the U.K. population. That’s actually insane, to be honest. Danniesen ☎  09:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Nobody is suggesting that DWM uniquely be placed at a lower level of priority than other sources, the suggestion is that BBC Press Releases be given precedence over others. If this is unclear I apologize, but let's be very firm that this isn't the case. It's simply the rejection of the idea that DWM should have the same level of priority as BBC press releases. (Note as well that one of the arguments for this is that it's primarily a UK thing, but it is not the sole argument.) Najawin ☎  09:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * We are simply pointing out that DWM is not applicable to the second point in this proposal about "experiencing the franchise the way it's intended to be experienced". I don't think that is so insane. LauraBatham ☎  09:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I don’t think it’s right, for various reasons, to resort to using terms like “insane” to dismiss opposing arguments. Still, I maintain that the aversion to the harmless, carefully curated tidbits featured in DWM seems rather overblown. Especially since they’ll only be viewable in the spoiler-approved areas, anyway, and they wouldn’t be displayed in the proposed spoiler notice/link template. How is this not a decent balance? TheGreatGabester ☎  13:23, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Ditto on all counts. That remark was totally over the line imo. – n8 (☎) 22:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Laura, I appreciate your point that "If we have a link, say, at the top of Richard Franklin's page that said "spoilers", it is not unreasonable to think that the majority of casual fans are going to assume that means he has an upcoming television appearance as Mike Yates." But this would only be a justified assumption if we were to adopt Najawin's distinction and only cover BBC Press Office announcements. Otherwise, Richard Franklin/Spoilers might simply say that DWM has revealed he'll be providing commentary for an upcoming boxset, or that Big Finish has announced he'll be appearing (as he did most recently in Assembled). By differentiating between BBC announcements on the one hand and DWM announcements on the other, the existence of a /Spoilers subpage link would be a much worse spoiler than otherwise. In contrast, by adopting a "maximalist" view of what's covered on /Spoilers, we'd be diluting the meaning of such a subpage's existence and protecting spoilerphobes in the process. – n8 (☎) 22:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Don’t really see how it can be over the line to call a suggestion to consider DWM lesser is insane. No one is suggesting any one person is insane. But oh well... I apologize if it felt that way. Danniesen ☎  23:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * You're assuming these fans will understand the distinction Nate. But by definition these are casual fans who aren't in tune with wiki minutiae. There's simply no reasonable way to expect our internal policy will effect their assumption, be it justified or not. We still get people confusing validity and canonicity, and it was worse prior to the creation of T:VS. I don't see how this proposal does anything other than assume every fan of the show is similar to us in terms of engagement. Which is a horrifically incorrect assumption. Najawin ☎  23:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * In addition to Najawin's point, I'd like to argue that being wrong about an assumed spoiler is actually worse. I'd much rather be right about x character showing up then spend the whole episode wondering where they are. Neither option is ideal, but at least if it's press releases only, it's much more likely to be the former. If I spent an episode thinking Yates was going to show up, only for the spoiler to be about boxset narration, I'd be pissed. And the only solution would be to risk being spoiled more to find out if I am being spoiled at all, if that makes sense.


 * I'd also like to say that I am not opposed to DWM spoilery tidbits being on the wiki somewhere, I just don't think they should be in places where people can accidentally stumble across them. LauraBatham ☎  00:25, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Come on now: a wiki can't be held entirely responsible for the faulty assumptions/reactions of individuals. I wouldn't call that "insane", but that is rather silly.


 * Najawin, what do you mean by 'distinction', anyway? In regards to editing? Or, in regards to people reading spoilers; that they won't be able to distinct between BBC press releases and DWM info? Do you really think most people who willingly click on a big scary link basically saying "click here for spoilers" are going to care about that? TheGreatGabester  ☎  01:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I mean there's no reason to assume casual fans will understand the distinction between "x is in an upcoming episode, so we have a spoiler page for them" and "x is involved in an upcoming DWU release, so we have a spoiler page for them". Indeed, the entire point is that it's the people who don't click these links who we have to worry about here. Can the wiki be held responsible for this? I dunno! But I think it's really difficult to reconcile the view Nate is suggesting with his view on how to rewrite pages in his subpage proposal. Are we suppose to serve the casual viewer or not? The casual viewer won't react like Nate is suggesting. Najawin ☎  02:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * "Serving the casual viewer or not” is a false dichotomy, when’s that really quite subjective. In my view, this proposed policy still serves the casual viewer fairly well, by going out of its way to seal off info within dedicated subpages. It’s not 100% how you’d like it, but it’s still something like, 87% how you’d like it... But I sense your mind’s made up on this, so maybe I’ll stop trying. TheGreatGabester ☎  05:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The wiki isn't responsible for it, no, but willingly ignoring the negative impact we could have on readers' enjoyment of the show is not a move I can support. The wiki caters to all fans, not just the knowledgable ones. Once again, I'm not saying don't have the info anywhere, I'm saying make it so that only people who want to know of its existence can find it. DWM pages, series pages, future release pages, etc. And if we do have to have a subpage link on an already existing real world page, just don't put the link at the top where every single person who visits the page will see it. LauraBatham ☎  02:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I support this proposal. While I do believe that the existence of a spoiler subpage is essentially a flag that someone is returning, things like Big Finish and DVD releases give enough cover that it's not a dead giveaway that someone is returning to the series proper.

I admit that I'm not in love with subpages as the way to go, though. Spoiler sections will generally be very small, and I don't feel that they really justify a whole subpage. I know I've seen spoiler sections in other wikis where you need to click on them to expand or reveal them, and that seems a bit more intuitive to me. This is a minor concern, though, and, if the consensus is subpages, I would still support it. Schreibenheimer ☎  14:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

EDIT: Just thought of an additional issue: what would we do with spoiler subpages during periods when people have no future announced work? Would we leave a blank subpage? Delete the subpage only to recreate it when their next work is announced? Schreibenheimer ☎  14:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I think a spoiler notice, expandable text or subpages are all workable means to achieve the same goal - some people don’t like expandable text/templates, because they’re less straightforward to edit in visual mode, but that’s the only downside I’m aware of. If it were up to me, I’d leave the subpages 99% blank, and leave a short description saying the actor is not announced to be part of any future projects. But nothing wrong with deleting and recreating, either. I’d imagine most Spoiler pages wouldn’t need to be blanked/deleted for extended periods of time, given the volume of stuff put out by Big Finish and stuff along those lines. TheGreatGabester ☎  18:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Re:The accusation of a false dichotomy: Gah, formatting, I didn't see that until just now. Let me emphasize that the particular comment I made about "serving the casual viewer or not" is specifically in reference to how it's difficult to square this proposal with Nate's reasoning for his other proposal. Since, you know, this spun off of me responding to Nate. I've tried multiple times to respond to the 87% comment and I just can't find a way to do so without saying something that would potentially be deeply frustrating and hurtful to people here in this thread that I consider friends. To be as succinct and polite as possible, reasoning matters more than conclusions, I'm deeply unhappy with the reasoning presented for the conclusions being drawn. Najawin ☎  00:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Let me just ask a quick question that has nothing to do with the Doctor Who Magazine debacle... can we at least agree to change the spoiler policy to a degree that we don’t have to keep the likes of Russell T. Davies, David Tennant and Ncuti Gatwa, and even the existence of upcoming specials and a new series, hidden for a full year, half a year, and a full year respectively. I personally think even with keeping up spoilers around specifics of further cast and crew, spoilerphobes, such as Laura, would know they were returning given the fact that they were official announcements and they were absolutely everywhere and practically unavoidable to anyone. YouTube reactor Sesskasays, who pride herself with going into every story not knowing what happens, had to concede to knowing David Tennant came back. Danniesen ☎  11:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I think there is broad consensus on the following ideas:


 * 1) Pages for new cast and crew based on BBC Press Releases.
 * 2) Discussing information from DWM on pages for the relevant DWM (potentially with a spoiler tag at the top of the page).
 * 3) Discussing both BBC Press Releases and DWM information on Series Pages with a spoiler tag at the top as we currently do.
 * There seems to be disagreement on the following ideas:


 * 1) Pages for new cast and crew based on DWM or other sources.
 * 2) The implementation of spoilers for existing cast and crew, be it through using a subpage, a subsection, or other means.
 * (Feel free to tell me if you think I'm missing places where there's disagreement, or have mischaracterized where people agree.) Najawin ☎  11:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The issue I see with not either locking a page and/or putting a spoiler tag on a cast/crew member’s page is that anyone can practically edit the pages to contain spoilers, which will be bad for spoilerphobes to stumble across, and if we do lock the page and/or add the spoiler tag, everyone will know something is going on (or rather, prevented from going on) and that will be bad for spoilerphobes. Danniesen ☎  12:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * @Najawin, regarding your above post, perhaps you should add in:  #Implementing information cited to DWM and similar releases that don't have as big a scope as BBC Press Releases on all spoiler pages.  This may fall under the scope of your last bulleted point regarding ideas with disagreement, but I feel it is perhaps a separate issue. 12:26, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * EDIT CONFLICT. Well, David Tennant has made his official return, so that's not really a spoiler any more anyway. It depends on what you mean by "hidden" (the existence of the new series, for instance, is hardly hidden) and how much info are we talking about? RTD returning as showrunner is pretty safe, but we still don't know what is happening with Tennant and Gatwa's Doctors. When Ncuti was first announced, everyone assumed he would be the 14th Doctor, but we now know that's not true... or is it? Is David Tennant the Fourteenth Doctor, or is it some sort of retro-regeneration caused by the Master forcing Thirteen to regenerate. Will this Doctor become another War Doctor situation? We won;t know for sure until the episode airs. And if we don't "hide" these particular upcoming appearances, we once again run into the problem of where do we draw the line?


 * As for the "unavoidable to anyone" comment. It is so easy for someone not in the UK to avoid these things (possibly even in the UK, but I've heard that you guys had it on the news and everything). Facebook was full of people who were unaware of the number of specials, or unaware we weren't getting a festive special last year at all. There were plenty of people on Tumblr who fully expected Jodie to regenerate into Gatwa, just to name a couple of examples. LauraBatham ☎  12:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Danniesen, yes edits could spoil people, but more often than not, they are reverted and thus only visible to people who see the edit history. Locking a page isn't so bad long as there isn't a reason listed. You don't even realise it's locked unless you try editting it. Spoiler tags however, definitely let people know something is going on. LauraBatham ☎  12:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * As for David Tennant and Russell T. Davies I was specifically talking of at the time they were announced, which would have been a full year until coverage for Davies and half a year until coverage of Tennant. As for the Tennant/Ncuti debacle, while that was true at the time that we didn’t know where they fitted, we did know that Tennant was back and Ncuti would turn up. Even now that we know Tennant is 14, we still don’t cover Ncuti as 15 because of that wretched spoiler policy. What I’m suggesting that we don’t shy away from these simple facts that they are there, when they each are publically announced. Danniesen ☎  12:50, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * As for the specials themselves, I was talking about the fact that there was a 60th anniversary, not about how many there were. Danniesen ☎  12:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah, so we do have official confirmation on the "Fourteen" and "Fifteen" numbering, do we? See, I didn't know that. All I've seen is "new Doctor", though I did figure that it was most likely possibility. (I still like the retro-regeneration theory, though). LauraBatham ☎  13:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it was announced in a Press Release just after Power that Tennant would be 14. Danniesen ☎  13:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * But I subscribed to the retro-regeneration theory as well before that. Danniesen ☎  13:10, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah k. But this does rather prove my point that it's hard to determine what is universal knowledge and what isn't.


 * It was a pretty convincing theory, wasn't it? Better than my Valeyard theory anyway, But if I'm honest, that was mostly wishful thinking. LauraBatham ☎  13:24, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly sure Ncuti was called the Fifteenth a couple of times, though I'm struggling to remember where, besides the press conference announcing the Disney+ deal. Could be a misdirect, but I reckon it's fine to call Ncuti the Fifteenth for now, unless proven otherwise... TheGreatGabester ☎  19:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * If people are coming to the wiki to find out information about anything in the [REDACTED]-sphere, then we should endeavour to have something based on officially released information. At the very least it'll make people explore more of the wiki while going through those pages.
 * If we're looking to have some spoiler-related info, then of course it should stay on the real world pages as many have said above.
 * DWM is as official a source as a press release, they're both "official" sources. Any discussion concerning being able to access DWM is I think a little bit of a redunant sort of discussion, there's subscriptions, digital releases etc. With the Disney+ situation for future international "broadcasts" you could easily make a similar argument about accessing DWM content for TV Doctor Who content.
 * I think any pages that contain spoilers will need to be edit locked to unregistered users, which will slow down any speculative editing. Maybe even admin edit locked in the case of cast/crew if that'll make people more comfortable concerning spoilers.
 * And then isolating the spoilers to a subpage should prevent anyone being badly spoiled by the information. Then there would simply be a (slightly messy) situation that once their involvement is out of the spoiler period to merge the pages back together to preserve their edit histories. —Tangerineduel / talk 13:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I’m against admin-locks if it prevents any non-spoilerphobes genuine registered editor from covering stuff, such as new info on Series 14 (Doctor Who). Danniesen ☎  13:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The Series pages have always allowed rumours and unofficial spoilers, so I doubt that particular page will get admin locked. LauraBatham ☎  13:51, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for weighing in, Tangerineduel! As always, your experience and perspective are invaluable. – n8 (☎) 14:12, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Tangerineduel, my only concern is what happens on already existing pages. I don't like the thought of real world pages becoming a minefield of "this topic/actor is relevant to upcoming releases" signs. The subpages are a good idea, it's just finding where to put the links to them that's the problem. I know we have to find a compromise, but we also need to acknowledge that people who want spoilers can just go looking for them, but once a spoilerphobe sees something spoilerish, that's it. Their only options are to look further for clarification, or have the possibility hanging over them. Or in the case of those who don't know about the audios, be left under a misassumption. LauraBatham ☎  14:21, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Laura, Najawin, I'm not sure it even bears repeating, but I just still don't think it's accurate or fair to say that our readers will see the words "Richard Franklin is related to upcoming releases" and conclude that he must appear in an upcoming TV episode. It's one thing to say "We can't expect our readers to be familiar with our rules." It's another thing entirely to say "We can't expect our readers to understand words as written"! They may not be superfans, but that's no reason to think that they're actively illiterate. That said, this conversation is clearly going in circles, so I'll sit back and trust in the judgment of our admins; with any luck, time and twitter will tell who's right. – n8 (☎) 20:12, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Nate, it has less to do with readers following the wiki's rules, and more to do with the fact that a lot of fans may not know enough about the EU to consider the audios even being an option. To them "upcoming appearance" is the TV show. And even for those who are familiar with the EU, like myself, just saying "oh, well, it's probably Big Finish" is not as easy as you seem to think it is. It's easier when it's actors who regularly do multiple audios a year, sure, but other actors not so much. Especially with the 60th anniversary coming up, where character returns are to be expected. The seed will have already been planted, and regardless of whether the character shows up in the TV show or not, it still takes something away from the viewing experience. Only including press releases would lessen the minefield, but if the concensus is to include other official notices as well, I will concede to that, but I really don't see why putting the spoiler links in a less obvious place is such a sacrifice. Even just moving it to the bottom of the actor's credits section would be preferrable. LauraBatham ☎  00:49, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * That seems reasonable to me, to put the notice at the bottom of the actor's credits section. Bottom of the biography section could work too. TheGreatGabester ☎  13:13, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I still find the discussion surrounding this issue to be rather... solipsistic... I agree completely with Laura but would even prefer for these to not be linked on the main page! With that said, ugh, I think putting them at the bottom of the credits section might be a viable compromise. Najawin ☎  19:30, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Reminder that we have 10 days left until deadline for consensus. Danniesen ☎  10:59, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Stop me if this is stupid, but Schreibenheimer and TheGreatGabester, you've given me an idea: can't we just have spoiler-allowed "Upcoming releases" sections for everyone? Perhaps this is unworkable from a technological standpoint, but if all cast and crew pages (or even just all pages in general, barring series etc.) had expandable Spoilers sections as a matter of course, then their existence wouldn't itself imply anything. LauraBatham's hypothetical of the disappointed Yates enjoyer can't be entirely prevented by this solution, but I think that's really just an inevitable instance of transitional growing pains inherent in a policy change, and hopefully could be made less of a hazard with some good wording at the section header.

As for DWM, I don't read it myself (chalk one up for the "casual fans"), but it's my understanding that most of the "spoilers" contained within are not exactly groundbreaking stuff, with anything truly big getting picked up, as FractalDoctor observed, by mainstream news. The existence of people who are devoted fans of the show but don't want any spoilers or previews is well-documented, but I'm having trouble imagining someone who 1. frequents this wiki, where 2. they would happily browse spoiler-marked pages for bombshell announcements like "David Tennant returns as the Doctor!!!", but 3. draw the line at bubble-wrap monster manufacturing secrets from DWM's ninety-sixth Exclusive Interview with a costume designer.

And returning to the original issue under discussion, taking Ncuti Gatwa as an example case: if you've found yourself at that URL, the conspicuous non-existence of the page is rather less effective than the archetypical "Move along, nothing to see here," and the bit about his name being the top search here for months is indicative of the sad truth that we can't control the whole world; I myself have been spoiled for all sorts of things by seeing Google search suggestions, and I think eventually you just have to bow to reality, chuck a "Spoilers!" banner up top, and create the damn page. Starkidsoph ☎  12:00, 9 February 2023 (UTC)


 * A: This is obviously unworkable. There are far too many pages for what you're proposing to be feasible.
 * B: DWM in particular isn't relevant, the question is whether DWM has the same level of status as a BBC press release. Saying that important DWM news will get picked up by mainstream press doesn't move the needle, because mainstream press coverage isn't the standard we're discussing here. Najawin ☎  12:32, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Alright people… final thoughts so we can wrap this up? Danniesen ☎  08:31, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

"Administrative" pages
Just to organize discussion, we've sort of gotten very absorbed in the important discussion above, but there's another important issue that fell to the wayside. I'm making a new topic for it here so we can discuss the two in parallel. Should spoilers be allowed, and if so, to some extent, in sandboxes or in the forums? Najawin ☎  02:50, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I feel that yes, spoilers should be allowed in sandboxes so editors can draft up pages under Tardis's CSS and theme, which doesn't exist on other test Wikis, with the caveat these sandboxes must be titled along the lines of User:Epsilon the Eternal/Spoilers One, due to, as @Najawin pointed out, fellow editors do like looking at other editor's projects. I feel incredibly frustrated I had to redact most of my draft for Ncuti Gatwa, for example. 03:53, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that spoilers should be allowed in sandboxes provided they are adequately labelled. I doubt another user's sandboxes are at risk of being found by your average wiki user. LauraBatham ☎  04:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that spoilers should be allowed in sandboxes and would also support their allowance in forum threads if the thread is clearly marked. I'd even be open to a conversation about allowing a forum thread around a rumor in certain situations (where it's looking to be a likely rumor and would have major impact on the wiki) so we can get ahead of things, but I'd feel that would only be in extreme circumstances and shouldn't be codified as a norm. Schreibenheimer ☎  14:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree with this completely. Spoilers in sandboxes are a must. A case like Epsilon’s shouldn’t be disallowed. It can be frequently updated, and if some new information relevant to the page comes along and we can’t even do that, by the time the page can be created, it is likely that the editor in question can have forgotten a certain addition they wanted to add. Danniesen ☎  16:35, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

After thinking about it, I support spoilers in sandboxes, provided that the sandbox name clearly indicates that spoilers are present. I'd also suggest the spoiler template attached as well, but that might be overkill.

As stated above, I think it imperative that we provide a way for spoilers to be discussed in the forums. My suggestion is that the thread title will say something like [Spoiler: S14 cast] or [Spoiler: Big Finish Release Description], something vague enough to not actively spoil whatever's being discussed, but also allows people to judge whether or not they want the risk of spoilers. (With that said, I think most of the people who use the forums except Laura don't care about spoilers. But there's no reason to be needlessly hostile to anyone who does care.)

(I'd also suggest that we should update our main page to a theme for the 60th specials sooner rather than later, but that might require its own heading. Technically as my specific idea would have a picture of Tate it would be a spoiler, otherwise it's not really something we need to discuss until we worry about getting ahead of S14.) Najawin ☎  23:53, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * As for the main page thing, we already have that discussion ongoing at Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Updating the main page & theme. Danniesen ☎  00:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The only reason we couldn’t finish the discussion on the 27th was because of the damn spoiler policy. As soon as the spoiler issue is out of the way, we can get back to finishing up discussions for that one. Danniesen ☎  00:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I think "amend the spoiler policy so the upcoming era rather than the outgoing can be shown on the main page" falls under the spoiler policy discussion rather than the ongoing thread to discuss main page/theme changes, but people can disagree! (Perhaps I was unclear as to what specifically I was proposing here, if so, my bad.) Najawin ☎  00:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't see a problem with specific spoiler forum threads if they are titled along the lines of what Najawin suggests. LauraBatham ☎  00:42, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify everyone, given the deadline approaching, is there consensus on spoilers in forum threads if they're tagged as I'm suggesting? And does anyone have feedback on potentially updating the main page to the incoming era as opposed to the outgoing? Najawin ☎  12:34, 4 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I think the second question, about the main page, should be tackled after the resolution of the Spoiler Policy debate. That said: I think the front page should be a celebration of the past 60 years. That's a simple way to keep the page anniversary-themed, without diving too deep into the contents of the specials - though, I reckon the Fourteenth Doctor probably deservees a spotlight. TheGreatGabester ☎  19:58, 6 February 2023 (UTC)


 * To clarify, I didn't mean specifically about the situation we find ourselves in now, but as for a general rule moving forward, the idea that incoming eras as opposed to outgoing would be on the main page, that would not violate the spoiler policy. (Provided that there are press releases about the Doctor + Companion, maybe some actual official shots released in costume we can use). Najawin ☎  21:37, 6 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Given the upcoming deadline, just putting out feelers for more feedback. Najawin ☎  06:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I think, having watched this whole conversation, I'm in favor of placing a discreet link on Actor's pages the end of their biography or lists of appearances, leading to a sub-page listing officially confirmed future roles and appearances. Also I'm in favor of having pages for actors confirmed for upcoming roles and included DWM among the sources included for these spoilers. I also agree with allowing spoilers in properly marked forum threads. I think these are relatively popular positions but I only remember so much about the overall conversation. Time God Eon ☎  18:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Despite User:TheGreatGabester's comment, discussion of whether we can update the spoiler policy to allow for the main page to show the incoming rather than the outgoing era is part of the Spoiler Policy discussion and should be discussed in this thread. We also are coming up on the deadline and it's a rather important thing to discuss. (Arguably one of the most important applications of Nate's second bullet point above.) Najawin ☎  12:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I forgot to mention it but I am strongly in favor that, being able to rework the main page to match an upcoming era of the show Time God Eon ☎  12:56, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * As Najawin said… we are nearing the deadline of this thread, which currently means we have today plus 2 days more until this entire thread has to be resolved and closed. Unless we give it 3 more weeks to run. Which in turn means that we have to also add 3 more weeks to Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Updating the main page & theme again, which by the way is also about to run out of time again. Danniesen ☎  13:13, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I am in fact gearing up to close this on time! But yes, by all means keep discussing the main page thing (and any other salient points) until then. That being said, it is perfectly normal for a thread with such a broad scope as this one to offer a partial closure to some of the main points, while pushing off particular points of contention to their own threads. That's what we did with the subpage policy thread, for example, and what I did in my closing post of the tabbed-galleries thread. I'm not convinced we'll need to for the main page thing, but it'd be a perfectly normal thing to do. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 13:34, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm well aware, which is why I am actively imploring people to discuss this issue before the deadline so it's not just me shouting into the void that this should happen. (Indeed, if it doesn't happen, our extension of Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Updating the main page & theme will be completely for nothing, since that was extended in large part to have this discussion.) Please, discuss, even if you just want to say "agree" or "disagree". In order for the precise redesign to the main page to be decided on, we need to pin down this policy. Najawin ☎  13:47, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree with having the main page updated to reflect the incoming era. I would also like to note that I am strongly considering giving the main page thread another extension as it's not really a traditional policy thread and could definetly benefit from more time (other than issues with spoilers, I know that I have many ideas that I haven't yet had time to actually try drafting up and others may feel the same). Bongo50   ☎  14:45, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Danniesen ☎  14:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I also agree about changing the main page. 15:58, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree as well. Pluto2 ☎ 17:21, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I also agree about changing the main page :) Fractal Doctor ☎  18:01, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * It entirely depends on how the information is displayed as to whether I agree or not. If it only focusses on one upcoming series at a time (focus on Fourteen before we get to Fifteen) and is kept simple, then it could work. Personnally, I think we should scrap the whole "Your friends" and "your crew" sections altogether, and instead make the main page more introductory to the whole show, rather than just the current era, with links to pages like The Doctor (with a picture of the latest one to appear, which would be Fourteen in this instance), companions (a picture of Donna would probably be best right now), the TARDIS, etc. Links to the most recent series/special and possibly the upcoming one could also be relevant. All i all, I think the main page should reflect the wiki, which is an encyclopedia, not a promotional site. LauraBatham ☎  01:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

(So the specifics will be decided on the other thread, but my thought was going to be pictures of Tennant, Tate, 14, Donna, Davies, Tranter, Gardner and the Bad Wolf Studios logo, two rows of 4, a short paragraph or two discussing the 60th, maybe including links to Quickstart guides/summaries of the story to catch people up, and then pivot to the wiki as a whole. For S14 it would be functionally identical but with Ncuti/15, Gibson/Ruby, maybe some slight tweaks, and then we can redesign it at S15. (We might want to not do Tranter and Gardner after the 60th, for instance.) I think the current approach has way too much current era stuff, but I'm fine with there being a brief bit at the top.) Najawin ☎  01:58, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Alright people… final thoughts so we can wrap this up? Danniesen ☎  08:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I want the spoilers. Cookieboy 2005 ☎  14:51, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Conclusion
Alright… this is going to be a long one.

Few other topics are as divisive in a given fandom space as spoilers. This makes setting down any policy tricky, because true consensus is impossible — for any policy short of "no spoilers whatsoever anywhere", there will always be people earnestly distressed and outraged by whatever lingering presence spoilers are granted; and the reverse holds. Provided anybody's paying attention in the first place, I am fully expecting a minor but strident amount of outcry on Twitter or Reddit about our newfound spoileriness. This is inevitable and we should not worry about it too much. For better or for worse, we must accept that we can't please everyone, and just try to be the most useful resource we can to the highest number, while trying to be graceful about the ways in which we'll contradict the wishes of the more spoilerphobic side.

And I think this thread makes clear that the editing community's consensus is in favour of loosening the spoiler policy by a very significant amount. I am particularly struck by the way multiple people who describe themselves as spoilerphobes have come out in support of it. To be more exact, people are in favour of widening our coverage officially-released information about upcoming releases (e.g. BBC Press Releases, Arcbeatle Press's social media), but not leaks.

As regards the much-debated point about giving BBC Press Releases special treatment vs. covering lower-profile official resources like DWM, I ultimately find Nate's point that…

"…y differentiating between BBC announcements on the one hand and DWM announcements on the other, the existence of a /Spoilers subpage link would be a much worse spoiler than otherwise. In contrast, by adopting a "maximalist" view of what's covered on /Spoilers, we'd be diluting the meaning of such a subpage's existence and protecting spoilerphobes in the process."

- User:NateBumber

…to be the most persuasive.

Some specifics:


 * Obviously, the hitherto-technically-policy-breaching existence of pages such as List of future releases is now enshrined.


 * As pointed out by User:NateBumber, as per T:RUMOUR do actually seem to allow some unofficial spoilers on specific sections of series pages, with rigorous sourcing. This seems to have worked well so far, but should not be extended to the new types of spoiler pages except for the ones about individual upcoming works (which extend most naturally from the series pages that T:RUMOUR currently applies to).


 * The practice of -tagged pages about upcoming series should be extended to pages about individual works.


 * Pages about DWM issues, or other notable publications, which discuss spoilery information from a real-world perspective, ought to present the spoilers on the main page, but be tagged with a banner.


 *  /Spoiler subpages ought to be created to document spoilers about real-world figures who already have non-spoilery relevance to the DWU, such as Catherine Tate. (In contrast, Ncuti Gatwa can just be created at Ncuti Gatwa.) should be moved into the main namespace to facilitate this. There seems to be some minor disagreement on the specific shape of this template; if people want to discuss at greater length whether the note, a collapsible box, a banner, a link in the infobox, etc. would be best, this can be discussed at Template_talk:Spoilerlink.


 * Official spoilers are also allowed in Forum threads when necessary, but spoilery threads should be flagged as such. As User:Najawin suggested, within the limits of practicality, the thread title should additionally strive not to contain overt spoilers, and it should itself specify that the thread will contain spoilers. (For example, a thread to discuss ahead of release whether we should consider the 60th anniversary specials to be part of Series 14 (Doctor Who) could be called something like Tardis:Temporary forums/Slot 4: Spoiler: How to lump future specials and series, remaining as broad and possible instead of e.g. talking about "the Tennant specials and Gatwa's first series".)


 * Note that public statements by individual members of a story's production team can count as "official"; for example, posts onm Russell T. Davies's or Ncuti Gatwa's social media have clearly been part of the official promotional strategy for the 60th anniversary and Series 14, and we shouldn't act like it makes a world of difference whether a given information comes from RTD's account vs. the Doctor Who count. If there is ever uncertainty, a duly-tagged Forum thread can be used to discuss whether a given piece of information is fair game for spoiler-tagged pages, or if it constitutes a leak. A specific template to flag such threads as "even spoilerier than normal spoiler threads" should be created. (The point, made a couple of times, about Howling:The Howling was considered at some length, but ultimately, I think it would confuse matters to start carrying out policy-changing discussions on the Howling, which has always been more of a free-for-all fun-zone.)


 * Official spoilers are theoretically allowed on the main page. To what extent is a matter for the "main page" thread to decide.


 * Regarding trailers, images from trailers can be used on the appropriate spoiler-tagged pages. Trailers and other promotional pieces which constitute original fiction in themselves, and thus would warrant coverage aside from spoilers, can now have pages created about them even before the release of the thing they advertise, but should of course be tagged as spoilery pages and kept out of Lists of Appearances until they are no longer spoilery. (Note that the specifics of this may, or may not, be revised by a future thread geared towards validating some narrative trailers. This would not constitute a T:BOUND/T:POINT breach.)


 * Spoilers, including leaks, are allowed on sandboxes so long as they are appropriately tagged, whether with or with the leaks-specific template discussed above.

"Any pages that contain spoilers will need to be edit locked to unregistered users, which will slow down any speculative editing."
 * As User:Tangerineduel stated:

- User:Tangerineduel

Thank you to anyone who's read this far; and a preemptive thank-you, also, to everyone who'll participate in the work to overhaul the Wiki in light with these new and exciting times! Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 15:04, 14 February 2023 (UTC)