Talk:Wraith

Delay rename
I propose to delay the rename until the exact nature of Wraith (Breakfast at Tyranny's) becomes clear. It is currently possible that they were not real or parts of a larger organism. Amorkuz ☎  18:47, May 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * Could we also add a "You may be looking for the Cloister Wraiths."? It seems like a logical thing to do. If there are possibly now more than two Wraiths in the DWU, it seems like we should allow people to find each one easier. The  Farty  Doctor   Talk  22:59, May 9, 2017 (UTC)

The current plan is to make a full-scale dab page and there is a volunteer for that, Layton4. Amorkuz ☎  00:04, May 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * I wish to depute your proposition Amorkuz, the story is pretty clearly wrapped up, and while we might see the Wraiths again, we can't say that they haven't been clear on the origins of the Wraith. OS25 (Talk) 23:13, May 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * Huh? And here I was, OS25, thinking that, already after my proposition to delay, we agreed on our talk pages that I read the last issue first and then, upon double checking the necessity of the move, try to do it tomorrow. All I can say is: if that's not fast enough for you, you're absolutely in your rights to find another admin to do the move faster. Amorkuz ☎  00:04, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

According to OS25, the last issue of the comic gives Wraiths a DWU-world entrance. But apparently I will not be able to get my hands on it for another week. OS25 is most probably right that the question of the move can already be resolved now. However, given my prior experience with dream related stories (e.g., AUDIO: The Anachronauts erroneously listed Berlin as its main setting for several years), I would not feel comfortable making the move without having all the information myself. However, I hereby formally rescind my proposal to delay the rename. Note for less experienced editors: please remember that only admins are allowed to perform page moves. Amorkuz ☎  14:31, May 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * I've done some thinking about it Amorkuz, and I've decided that you're still MOSTLY right. The "Wraiths" are truly never called that outside of their false dream realities, and there are clearly lingering plot points meant to be resolved later in the saga of comics (Boris, for instance).


 * However, as noted by another user on your talk page, I still believe that we should move this page simply so that Wraith can become a DAB page. Even if Wraith (Breakfast at Tyranny's) isn't the final title of that article, we would still end up linking to Wraith eventually on a DAB page. If anyone's curious, the other pages which would likely be added to a Wraith DAB page would be Wraith Warriors, Wraith World (audio story), Wraith World, Vortex Wraith, Bog wraith, Time Wraith, Tunnel Wraith and Cloister Wraith.


 * I do, however, understand the obnoxious and tedious idea of moving this page to Wraith (Daleks Among Us), only for a later comic to give us a different name, thus meaning that the page has to be moved to Wraith (species). Hell, for all we know the "Wraiths" we see in BaT might always have that 's' at the end, even in singular settings. I, on this basic annoying aspect, wholly respect your choice to hold off renaming the page for the time being. But, I think it inarguable that Wraith should eventually be a DAB page, weather Breakfast at Tyranny's is involved or not. OS25 (Talk) 21:41, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

Fact collection on Wraiths in Titan comics
"Hide you from the wraith hounds. [...] Dark-crawlers, wraith creepers, whatever you wanna call 'em. I dunno what they are."

- Boris on "wraiths" in the reality induced by the Red TARDIS.

"You don't want to meet wraith hounds out in the open [...] Out beyond a certain point, the wraiths leave you alone [...] Sounds like the wraiths have found some prey..."

- Boris on "wraiths" in the reality induced by the Red TARDIS.

"Where are the wraith hounds?"

- The Tenth Doctor on "wraiths" in the reality induced by the Red TARDIS.

"Those creatures... I would surmise that somehow they're feeding off her. [...] We don't yet know these beings' abilities... They are somehow altering our perceptions. [...] Find somewhere safe, away from those creatures [...]"

- Anubis upon experiencing real "wraiths" inside the Red TARDIS.

"How'd you [...] knock the wraith hounds out?"

- Boris on "wraiths" in the reality induced by the Red TARDIS.

"It's like these wraith things are draining off your energy and mixing it all together to power some kinda engine..."

- Cindy Wu about real "wraiths" inside the Red TARDIS.

"Gabby Gonzalez: What is it, Doctor?

Doctor: Got a few theories. Some kind of overmind...? Likes to enslave other beings and mimic their abilities..."

- Discussion of real "wraiths" inside the Red TARDIS.

"It's reabsorbing the big wraith! That's simply an appendage. The... the Red Box... is the entity itself."

- Doctor of a real "wraiths" in the Garden of Osiris.

Collecting quotes. Amorkuz ☎  23:38, May 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * The last quote seems to be decisive. Wraith hounds, or wraiths for short, do not constitute separate beings. They are all part of the Red TARDIS. So, just like Axon man, Axon woman, Axon boy and Axon girl in TV: The Claws of Axos do not have their own pages but are instead directed to Axon, we do not need a separate page for the wraiths. They should be discussed on the page for the Red TARDIS (or Red Jaded General if that is a better name). Amorkuz ☎  23:43, May 17, 2017 (UTC)


 * I disagree. First off, I think Red TARDIS is a debatable name -- Gabby clearly identifies it as Tyranny's department store. Also there are figures that occur separately from the ship, such as the Jade General, and the entirety of the sect of Cindy clones. A closer comparison is that as plastic is to the Red TARDIS, Autons are to the Wraith hounds. The Autons are technically only a part of the Nestene Consciousness, but we still have a separate page for the controller and the drone. Indeed, there is good reason for us to cover both the Autons and the Wraith hounds exactly the same. Majour spoilers here if you're still on BaT...

"Gabby: So it's Nestene, but not from this universe?

Doctor: I really want to be wrong about that.

Gabby: Wait... Plastic? There's no plastic in this era. You're not saying.

Doctor: No. They're all flesh and blood. There's some variant elements I can't entirly identify from a cursory scan, but they all share a genetic signature derived from our Cindy.

...

Doctor: This Nestene-alike is trying to learn how to manipulate matter at an even more complex level than plastic..."

- Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth (comic story)


 * So since the consciousness in this storyline is literally the Nestene consciousness from another universe, we should cover the ideas with the same logic. So even if these Wraith hounds are part of the Red TARDIS' form, they're still separate beings that need a page other than a sub-sectio.


 * So I stand by my point that we still need a page on the Wraiths seen in the story. But I think we can all agree that it would be fine to simply make the page be at something like Wraith hound (or something like that) just to make dabbing easier.


 * Either way, Wraith still needs to become a DAB page itself, so I am sticking with the rename. OS25 (Talk) 01:59, May 18, 2017 (UTC)

Wraiths: ruling on the original rename request
OttselSpy25, I am a bit baffled by your position. And I'm not entirely sure why you disagree with many things I never claimed. Let us go through the issues one by one:
 * You proposed the rename to make a page for "creatures from the comic story Breakfast at Tyranny's". Not remembering exactly, I conjectured that they may be "not real or parts of a larger organism". Upon checking, I was right. The wraiths from the story Breakfast at Tyranny's are part of a larger organism as proved by the quote above. They should not get a separate page because in Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth they are clearly called a hive mind. The Doctor states that the Red Jade General should not call itself in the singular. The general agrees. They are multiple bodies of the one organism. We do not make pages for each avatar of Mr Ebonite. We do not make pages for animals Daqar Keep grew out of himself. We do not even have a page for Jembere-Bud (though we probably should since she was a person before becoming part of Keep). And we will not make pages for parts of the hive organism from the other universe.
 * On my talk page, you claimed "the species in Breakfast at Tyranny's, who are basically the Nestene Consciousness from another universe. The only real name we have for them is (as I recall) "The Wraiths," meaning that it's the best name for the page." As already established, they are not a species. They are a single organism. And their only name being wraiths is patently false. They are called the Red TARDIS and Red Jade General, the last one being a self-description. Even for the specific manifestations of this organism that are meant here, the most common name in the comic, as demonstrated by the quotes above, is wraith hounds (4 times) not wraiths (2 times). So the original rename request was completely unnecessary from the very beginning.
 * You claimed that "The "Wraiths" are truly never called that outside of their false dream realities". They have been (see quotes above).
 * You claimed "I think Red TARDIS is a debatable name -- Gabby clearly identifies it as Tyranny's department store". If you read carefully, I myself did not commit to this particular name. But calling it the wholly imagined "Tyranny's department store" is completely out of question, in case you were wondering.
 * That "figures [...] occur separately from the ship, such as the Jade General" is irrelevant as per Axon precedent.
 * Cindy clones clearly deserve not one but multiple pages. I never claimed otherwise. And also the "flesh and blood" in your quote refers to the Cindy clones, not wraith hounds, which are not even mentioned in Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth
 * Autons are nothing like wraith hounds because they were never absorbed by the Nestene consciousness.

To conclude, this rename request was unnecessary. Wraiths from Breakfast at Tyranny's will not get a separate page and should be covered at the page for the entity from another universe. The name for this entity should be debated but not here. Please use story pages and/or forums for that. Thus, I am removing this rename request. Amorkuz ☎  06:45, May 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * I disagree with this for a perfectly valid reason. Well, let me rephrase that, I disagree that this debate is closed for several reasons. I disagree with some of what you just said for many reasons, but my main point is going to be about closing the thread.


 * First of all, I not only disagree with your concept of how we should cover the Red Jade General (who is the consciousness represented in human form) and every plasmic or plastic creation that he ever formed. By your logic, the page Red TARDIS would cover:


 * The consciousness who created it
 * The virtual reality homed inside
 * The technology inside
 * The location itself
 * The species being controlled by the consciousness that later describes itself as we (aka, layers of minds who control various tasks)
 * Even if they are not a "species," they specifically are a creation that serves a direct purpose not represented elsewhere. They disguise themselves inside the false department reality, and so on and so forth. The element that they can be absorbed back into the Red TARDIS seems wholly irrelevant -- it's a difference of a technically rather than the real reason that we would ever consider treating the exact same thing evolved slightly differently in an entirely different fashion. The Wraith-hounds/Autons are separate drones connected to their Nestene consciousness who act on their own as a "we" formation and not an "I" grouping. If a story revealed that the Nestene Consciousness could re-absorb faulty Autons, we would not merge the pages. That is not a reason that they are different, it's an excuse not to talk about how they're the same.


 * See Vardi. The Vardi are the base, the Vardi are the Emojibots. Different page for each thing. There is a giant difference between Ebonite splintering into a billion smaller versions of himself and an object creating totally different creatures and devices from the same materials that it is made of.


 * I most of all disagree that this has the right to be decided on the talk page for a Big Finish species. I think if a forum is started up about these bad boys, what we decided here should hold no ground.


 * All of what I just brought up isn't why I added to this section. My main point is that I no longer want this to be titled with a story title DAB, I have stated over and over again that I believed that this story should be a DAB page to avoid confusion. I stand by this. OS25 (Talk) 09:12, May 18, 2017 (UTC)


 * And here I completely agree. You originally posted this as a "speedy rename", which is explicitly explained as being reserved for the cases covered by T:DAB or T:NAMING. I have demonstrated that the very name proposed for the speedy renaming went directly against the policy of titling by the name most commonly used in-universe. This proposal required a discussion, which we had under the "rename" tag just now. The original grounds for the rename, which were never updated, have been rejected based on the source material. This discussion has uncovered multiple subtle points about the plot of the two comic stories in question and at least one additional interrelated question of how to name the entity, which so far does not have a page. Given that this topic covers several stories and several in-universe phenomena, the only proper place to discuss this is, indeed, in Panopticon, as I was first to suggest. I would prefer if you start this discussion since you advocate the change and would better represent your case for the change. If the thread is not started in a couple of days, I will do it myself. You are absolutely right that the results of this discussion, upon the closure by an admin (which will not be me), will be binding for all sides. Amorkuz ☎  10:07, May 18, 2017 (UTC)