Theory talk:Timeline - The Master

Terror of the Autons incarnation
The reason I've been saying that the Master is already in the incarnation we see in Terror of the Autons at the start of The Dark Path is that the narration of The Dark Path describes him as such. According to pg. 32 of The Dark Path (I think, not sure about the page number) the narration details the Master's appearance like this: ''A man in a grey double-breasted suit stepped out and looked around. A cravat with a silver bird-of-prey tiepin was at the collar of his silk shirt. He was of medium build with a high forehead and swept-back hair that was greying at the temples. His neatly trimmed dark beard also had streaks of grey at the comers.'' That is the exact image of Delgado's Master. -- Bold  Clone  20:34, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

Speculation
All information about the War Chief, the War King, the Magistrate, and the Man with the Rosette was removed from this page a while back. I guess I always saw this page (and other timeline pages) as a theory zone, since putting events in order often relies on speculation, authorial intent, and otherwise out-of-story evidence. Since here, the main wikispace's ban on out-of-story evidence doesn't apply, is there a reason that the War Chief, War King, Magistrate, and Man with Rosette should be kept separate? NateBumber ☎  20:47, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the War King technically the Faction Paradoxs version of the Master? -- Bold  Clone'  03:03, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

The Man with the Rosette
Looking back over the brief appearance of the man with the rosette in The Adventuress of Henrietta Street, I’m beginning to wonder if perhaps he might actually be the Roger Delgado Incarnation, or at least if that wasn’t the original intention, that it might be the best possible placement now.

Here’s a few extracts with descriptions of his appearance:

"Though no name is given for the man, Scarlette says that he was ‘a gentleman of distinguished nature’, clean-shaven and dark-haired, and at first she thought he might have been in the market for business. She does note, however, that on the lapel of his black clothing he wore a rosette in blue-and-white. It would have marked him out as a member of the Opposition, but nonetheless he was quite gracious and civil."

"Assembling a picture out of all the accounts, he’s described as a clean- shaved, dark-haired man in distinguished middle age, handsome in some re- spects even though to some of the British witnesses he came across as ‘swarthy and difficult to place’. He was slim and well turned out, and he made an im- pression on the island by always dressing in tight, straightforward clothing of prim black. . . apart from the rosette of blue and white which he wore on his lapel."

"Whenever people would ask each other about him, in muted whispers, the dark-haired gentleman would simply bow his head to them. His accent was English, although some said they detected a little Latin in his features."

Now obviously a lot of these features are just trademark Master features, and could in theory be possessed by any incarnation of the Master, but I’d say this description is at least specific enough to tell us that this is either the incarnation of the Master as played by Roger Delgado or a new incarnation/body with a very similar appearance.

Certainly at this stage in the Eighth Doctor Adventures novels, the Master is still very much trapped in the Eye of Harmony, and is for the duration of the novels. Which means this isn’t a "current" incarnation of the Master, instead either a past or future one. So perhaps it could be the Delgado incarnation? The only thing he’s missing is his beard, which he specfically doesn’t have because the Doctor has one. (He’s also later mentioned in The Gallifrey’s Chronicles, this time with a beard.)

Additionally the illustration of one of the four surviving elementals in COMIC: Miranda looks unmistakenly like the silhouette of the Delgado Master. The Man with the Rosette, beard and all was also described as being one of the elementals in The Gallifrey Chronicles. SarahJaneFan ☎  17:21, January 12, 2020 (UTC)


 * Your evidence here seems pretty compelling. How would you deal with this? My thoughts are as a subsection under == Public enemy == titled === The Man with the rosette === and making a note that his appearance implies that he's the Delgado Master. As for placement of the subsection, how about between The Judas Goatee and Verdigris? So it would go === Distancing himself from UNIT ===,  === The man with the rosette === , and finally  === Death ===  which includes Verdigris, Frontier in Space, Legacy of the Daleks, and Doorway to Hell. Thoughts? Danochy ☎  00:34, June 1, 2020 (UTC)

The Man with the Rosette recalls his time sparring with the Doctor in the past, so it’s certainly after the bulk of Delgado stories. Plus the Third Doctor’s involvement with the War in Heaven takes place during Season 11 so It’d make sense if the Master's involvement took place roughly in the same era.

I’m not sure about making a section specifically for the Man with the Rosette myself as I do feel that the description matches well enough that we can just assume he is Delgado, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me. Certainly the placement should be somewhere around where you’ve already mentioned.

Also while I’m here, I reckon that the War King would then have to fit in as a pre-Delgado incarnation as he looks physically different to Delgado and the connection to the War Chief is played up significantly. Also the War King is involved with the War in Heaven and dies towards the end of it and then the Man with the Rosette surfaces as one of the surviving elementals in the post-war universe. So I’d suggest we place the War King section between Renegade Time Lord and Public Enemy. SarahJaneFan ☎  01:00, June 1, 2020 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, a separate section shouldn't be needed. I suppose the evidence you presented above could be integrated into the timeline with "the man's descriptions fits that of the Master which first appeared in Spearhead from Space". I'm not well-acquainted with the Master from the War and post-War, so I'll let you make any changes you see fit. If anyone has any qualms, have them directed to the talk page and they can participate in discussion. Danochy ☎  01:34, June 1, 2020 (UTC)


 * The image used for the War King, IMO, looks a bit like Delgado, but aged. And the War is undone by the Eighth Doctor, in some fashion. Could be feasible he is the Delgado Master, and then he is unaged when the War is erased. After all, the War King knew about the War before it happened, and it is written like he came from after the war to warn the Time Lords.BananaClownMan ☎  17:43, June 1, 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion of the War Chief and the War in Heaven
Thread:275417 has included some very interesting points, such as how many have come to agree that the points for TM/TWC being the same outnumber the points against, and even discussing merging the pages. And since the War King is has evidence of being both, I believe both should be included on the timeline page, as long as their inclusion does not include too much of disruption.BananaClownMan ☎  17:49, June 11, 2020 (UTC)

Well I think I’ve made my disagreement more than clear, so it’s up to someone else to way in on the argument. The points they’re making are incredibly twisted towards their bias that the two characters are the same. Like they’re trying to say that Gary Russell intended them to be the same person when in reality he just originally intended "Magnus" to be the Master but later retconned him to be the War Chief instead which is a completely different situation. Not to mention the fact that they’re trying to pass off an incredibly vague description as being intended as the War Chief regenerating into Delgado (In a story published under a policy stating that the characters are separate entities) and then all the War King's unlicensed appearances as well. Really the only legitimate licensed source that implies they’re the same are those Terrance Dicks novelisations, which also imply that the Monk is the Master as well, which he very clearly isn’t. Look there’s not much point in having a debate because neither of us are gonna change our minds here. I think it’s just going to be a case of waiting for the others to come along and cast the deciding vote on this. SarahJaneFan ☎  11:34, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

How is anything at all "incredibly twisted"? How is it "incredibly twisted" for an author who co-wrote The War Games, and then wrote extensively for the Roger Delgado Master in a novelisation of a television serial he himself wrote to a) Explicitly state that up to Colony in Space only two TARDISes have been stolen, and then have a Senior Time Lord on Gallifrey describe the events of The War Games when a young Time Lord asks him about this History between the Doctor and the Master?

How is it "incredibly twisted" for Terrance Dicks, in his novelisation of Terror of the Autons to spell it out for readers that the Time Lord who arrived at Rossini's Circus is the same Time Lord who had organised large scale wars, only for the Doctor to put an end to said organised wars by calling in the Time Lords? And that the Master got away(because the Doctor mistakenly believed that the Master didn't have a working TARDIS), while the Time Lords, after arriving and erasing the Master's accomplices from ever having existed, then exiled the Doctor to Earth?

Perhaps it's "incredibly twisted" for the same Terrance Dicks, in his novelisation of The Three Doctors to explicitly state that, prior to Omega, the Doctor had only ever encountered ONE other renegade Time Lord adversary..the Master.

Or is it "incredibly twisted" for Malcolm Hulke, in his novelisation of The War Games to state that when the War Chief encountered the Doctor he remarked that there was only one person the Doctor could possibly be?

As for the "Wildnerness Years" stuff:

a) You can't just cherry-pick one little bit from that DREAM SEQUENCE from Divided Loyalties, and then ignore the rest. You want to claim that that is a literal factual depiction of what happened when the Doctor was at the Academy? Then, you must ALSO take EVERYTHING ELSE from that Dream Sequence as literal fact as well. And, if you do that, then the Doctor, the Master, the Rani, and others, never became Time Lords, and thus are unable to regenerate. Oh yes, and ONLY anyone with a 'Rassilon Imprimatur' can even travel in a TARDIS. Please explain that.

b) The points about Timewyrm:Exodus and The Dark Path weren't supposed to "prove" anything other than there's nothing in either book that "prevents" the 'War Chief' being a pre-Delgado Master. Does either book explicitly state that "the War Chief is the Master"? No. But, is there anything in either book that makes it impossible? No.

c) Bringing up Faction Paradox was merely to illustrate that at least part of Greater Doctor Who accepts the bleeding obvious. Likewise the Faction Paradox Wiki states outright that the renegade Time Lord in The War Games is the same character as the renegade Time Lord in Terror of the Autons. As, to be honest, this wiki should have done all along.

d)But, actually, if you're claiming that the War King is "unlicensed", that opens an entire can of worms, doesn't it? Because what of the original Bernice Summerfield books and audios set after The Dying Days. It's the same situation of Faction Paradox. The rights to use some elements of Doctor Who, but not others. All those UNLICENSED "Great Houses", "timeships", "evil renegade" etc. etc. FIRST appeared in Bernice Summerfield. Which Faction Paradox simply copied the format laid out by the Benny books/audios. There were characters who were obviously Time Lords, and who travelled in TARDISes in the Bernice Summerfield Big Finish audios as well. But legally they couldn't call them that. So, if you state that with Faction Paradox it's 'unlicensed', are you calling for several years worth of Bernice Summerfield stories to be "decanonised" as well?

Not that the 'War King' is the beginning nor end of anything either.

Lastly, "which also imply that the Monk is the Master as well, which he very clearly isn’t." Very clearly, according to who? And WHICH 'Monk', by the way? The monks from Series 10 of the Revived Series? The Eleventh Doctor(see The Bells of Saint John? And then you can try and explain how Divided Loyalties has "Mortimus" at the Academy with the Doctor, whereas No Future claims they never met before The Time Meddler. Or, why Mortimus from No Future was stranded on an ice planet for an eternity, which never happened to the character played by Peter Butterworth in The Daleks' Master Plan. Or... 197.86.143.194talk to me 12:32, July 10, 2020 (UTC)


 * I’m just gonna throw this out there now; even though this unregistered speaks as though they are me, I didn’t write this reply.BananaClownMan ☎  12:24, July 10, 2020 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. That was me. I have signed it now.

This isn't me either. But could be a good starting point(it's a few years old):. 197.86.143.194talk to me 12:32, July 10, 2020 (UTC)

The thread in question on the Panopticon has been shut down. I believe wrongly. If someone wants to pretend that the information in the Target books etc. doesn't exist, that is their personal preference. But it is very clear what they say, perfectly clear what they mean, and although this wiki doesn't "count it as valid", it is perfectly clear what the authorial intent of the people who actually wrote for both Edward Brayshaw's and Roger Delgado's on-screen character(s) was.

So, after a long discussion, good points being made, a lot of both in-universe and real-world evidence being brought up, the thread was prematurely closed. and a single person pronounced "we will not be combining them.". Well, in the case of this wiki RE-combining HIM. 197.86.143.51talk to me 07:09, July 11, 2020 (UTC)

It is 100% clear from both in-narrative and real-world (though this wiki chooses to ignore the latter) that both the War Chief and the Magistrate/War King are the Master. Nobody can look at the evidence and rationally claim otherwise.

But it is also 100% clear that some people don't WANT to accept that the War Chief and/or the War King are/is the Master, and will say and do anything to try and prevent this wiki (and other sites etc.) accepting the obvious. When pressed for somethin, anything, they will say "The War Chief is Magnus. The Master is Koschei". Yet, as has repeatedly shown, THAT "proves" nothing other than they haven't actually read Divided Loyalties.

But I can see that this wiki'sd decision to exclude Edward Brayshaw from the list of Masters has nothing to do with actual evidence, and everything to do with someone's personal preferences, and someone's personal headcannon. Thus it is futile for anyone to present evidemce. 197.86.143.174talk to me 05:39, July 13, 2020 (UTC)