Talk:Tzim-Sha

Name
Are we sure the name is 'Tzim Sha'? not 'Tsim' or 'Dzim'?Opdagon ☎  14:38, October 8, 2018 (UTC)
 * Subtitles say Tzim-Sha. Xx-connor-xX ☎  15:02, October 8, 2018 (UTC)
 * OK Opdagon ☎  18:49, October 8, 2018 (UTC)

According to the official Doctor Who Twitter account, it is T'zim-Sha (here) Lady Junky 12:08, October 10, 2018 (UTC)
 * Please read Thread:128198 where it states that only admins can move pages but also tells you what to do if you think a page needs renaming. Shambala108 ☎  15:18, October 10, 2018 (UTC)
 * Did not see that one, sorry. But it does not change that "Tzim-Sha" is wrong. I mean, from what I understood, it only comes from the subtitles (which could be misspelled). Meanwhile, the official Twitter account AND the official website for the series spells his name as "T'zim-Sha". The current name has no real basis, while we have official sources for the series using a different name. Lady Junky 15:36, October 10, 2018 (UTC)
 * Generally, we consider closed captioning superior to marketing elements. But, really, the ending credits are even higher in the hierarchy, because those have to be signed off by the production team. So given the dispute between lesser sources, I'm going to move the article to Tim Shaw and leave redirects for the varying non-EN names. 16:13: Wed 10 Oct 2018
 * Additionally, I should point out that the move you suggested isn't, technically, possible. There's a flaw in FANDOM's search engine that makes it unlikely for anything that has an apostrophe in the second position to be easily found by our auto-suggestion code. Note the difference in the search when you enter "Tzim" versus when you try "T'zim". (For readers in the future, this may be corrected. But in the here and now, when this character is most relevant to Doctor Who, it's better to go with a name that our search engine can more easily find.) 16:25: Wed 10 Oct 2018
 * Really? Why are credits highest canon? Wouldn't it be in-episode content that has the first place on that front, and by extension, closed captioning/subtitles? --DCLM ☎  05:45, October 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * But, is his name pronounced dzim, tsim, or tuzim? Opdagon ☎  06:51, October 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * The exact spelling might be up for debate, but I think it went through clearly that his name was Tzim-Sha. At least that's what I made of it. --DCLM ☎  09:14, October 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, if his name was emblazoned on his pod in golden letters, that would have taken precedent. Barring that, credits are second best. Unfortunately, different people may hear different things. But it is at least indisputable (as in confirmed by the credits) that the Doctor called him "Tim Shaw". Given that even BBC itself cannot agree on the correct spelling, Tim Shaw is practically the only thing we can use. Amorkuz ☎  12:53, October 11, 2018 (UTC)

For information purposes, the hierarchy of spelling was determined in Thread:127706. Shambala108 ☎  14:00, October 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Didn't know that thread existed. Fair to say, the thread is kinda confusing IMO. --DCLM ☎  19:40, October 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Just to circle back on this, yes, there is a hierarchy of sources we try to use. But, in addition to the technical issue that I mentioned above, a great difficulty with using this character's real name is that the BBC themselves don't agree with the spelling. One BBC source has it Tzim, another T'zim, and yet another goes with T'Zim. You may see the capitalisation of the "Z" as insignificant, but, to a wiki, Z and z are different things. That's why we have to have one redirect at T'zim-Sha and another at T'Zim-Sha. They're actually wholly different pages.


 * But here's where it gets crazy. The sources claiming "T'zim" and "T'Zim" are the same: BBC Marketing. They just aren't consistent with this thing. So even if there were no technical issue, there wouldn't be a way for us to judge which spelling was "better".


 * And lest you think the above-mentioned Case File is any help, think again: it uses all caps.  The only completely unambiguous name that's in the dialogue, in the credits, and in the related Case File is "Tim Shaw".  07:29: Thu 18 Oct 2018
 * So... now with the finale having been broadcast, we have finally been given his true name in writing. Is it time for a name change to this page? --DCLM ☎  23:18, December 9, 2018 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, we were given his name in writing on November 1, in The Secret in Vault 13. What we now have is a uniform spelling of his name across media. Amorkuz ☎  22:59, December 10, 2018 (UTC)
 * When even the TARDIS crew continually refer to him as "Tim Shaw", there's clearly creative intent not to use his "real name" in-universe. Scout Finch ☎  12:57, January 2, 2019 (UTC)

Rename
I understand why the current name is used as the title for this page - it's the most commonly used name to refer to him - but I do not agree with this reasoning. When it comes to identity, surely the name that the character identifies with is more important than the name used by other characters to mock him? For this reason I think the page should be moved to Tzim-Sha, but obviously I'd like to see other opinions on this matter. Danochy ☎  10:53, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed. While before we were battling over closed captions, advertisements, and other out-of-universe sources, his name has now been spelled out, both in the finale and (as User:Amorkuz noted above) The Secret in Vault 13. – N8 ☎
 * I also agree that the name should be changed."Tim Shaw" was a mispronunciation that turned into a taunt and (in my opinion, at least) is not really appropriate when we have in-universe sources (and episode credits) that state his correct name.LauraBatham ☎  07:59, November 27, 2019 (UTC)
 * Wholeheartedly agree. --DCLM ☎  08:03, November 27, 2019 (UTC)
 * And as we know, in-universe stories hold more value in the case of naming than out-of-universe sources does. --DCLM ☎  11:45, December 10, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'd also like to voice my support for a rename. It's not like we call Yasmin Khan "Yaz", even though that is the nickname the characters say most often, so why here? Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎  14:15, July 25, 2020 (UTC)
 * I think there is a case for having her page at Yaz Khan. I wouldn't necessarily support it, but there's a case. Calling this character Tim Shaw, though, would be like having Mickey Smith at Ricky Smith back in 2005, when that was the most common name the Ninth Doctor gave him. It just wouldn't be done. The point here is that it's a non-consensual nickname which feels so wrong to use as a name for a page, even a fictional one. Danochy ☎  19:49, July 25, 2020 (UTC)
 * Such a name change wouldn't even require any link-changing, as Tim Shaw would remain as a redirect. Danochy ☎  05:53, October 1, 2020 (UTC)

Rename has been carried out. The issue with most names was that they came from sources one step removed from the actual valid story, and Case Files’ T'zim-Sha's problem was searchability. Both these problems are sidestepped by the Secret of Vault 13 version. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  09:50, October 5, 2020 (UTC)