Talk:River Song/Archive 1

Blowing up the TARDIS?
Perhaps, since River said she'd 'Killed a man', and the Doctor pulled a piece of the TARDIS exterior (I assume) out of the crack, River blew up the TARDIS and THOUGHT she'd killed the Doctor. Ideas? IHBB 07:44, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

I was just thinking the same thing. She said she killed "a hero to many" and a "very good man. Best I've ever known." Which got me thinking about the Doctor. I didn't think about her blowing up the TARDIS though. She also mentions that she knows how to kill a Time-Lord. Sonictheblade 19:52, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the 'man' she is refering to IS the TARDIS, which is considered to be alive??? Geek Mythology 12:13, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it was the TARDIS, because even though it IS alive, it is reffered to by thedoctor as a "she". Also, how is the TARDIS the best man she ever knew? Ergo, even if she has blown up the TARDIS, she couldn't have been talking about that particualar incident. --LOTS121Kara:) 15:15, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

River's Early Life
"She was, in fact, a future companion of his who travelled with him off and on." - It's hardly a fact is it? She claims it's true but there is no evidence yet to support it. Especially as one of her first lines in Silence in the Library is "I lied, I'm always lying. Bound to be others." DMaple 15:11, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

travels to the end of the universe
It was the events of the Big bang

I agree Pir8m1k3y 14:17, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Good point. There's no guarantee she isn't a con artist. It could be that the Doctor (or someone close to him) wrote a biograhy of him at some point which Song stole and is using to insinuate herself into his life for her own personal gain. Sour Bob 64.134.166.40 17:59, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

== River’s book==

After reading this entry, I've got a question about it's mention of the Blue Book.

I'd like to refer to this part: "... this might indicate that the blue book is in fact the Doctor's biography, written some time after his death later on in his own personal time-line."

How was it mentioned or indicated that this book was written after the Doctor's death? And since he's a Time Lord ... should this mean his final death or "just" a regeneration?

Yes, it seemed quite obvious that the Blue Book contains some of the Doctor's future and that River Song knows him pretty well. She also mentioned that he looks younger than the version she knows, but it didn't sound to me as if he was dead in her time-line. And since she's so careful about the book, I think she wouldn't dare to mention something like this about his future.

Treelight 18:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It is only possible that the Blue Book was written after the Doctor's death. If it is likely that River Song has traveled with the Time Lord, it is likely that she may have picked up the book in the further future of the Doctor's time-line.

It is also possible that the Blue Book is indeed the Doctor's biography, it may be added to every time the Doctor regenerates. This would also explain away the theory that the Doctor dies. Although, it has been mentioned previously by a Doctor Who writer that a Time Lord may only have thirteen regenerations.

Queenling 19:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

She kind of calls it a diary. 71.99.82.202 14:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

that blue book looks like the tarids outer shell thingy, well the police box :D LOL

River Song does not actually call the book a diary, she merely states that it is against the Doctor's own rules to see it, and that it contains spoilers. And the fact that the Blue Book is similar to the TARDIS has already been recognized by fans. Queenling 16:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The Doctor refers to it as her (River Song's) diary in the concluding part, Forest Of The Dead. I'd suggest that this, and not the biography (although other biographies are mentioned in the first part) explanation, is correct. 82.23.83.228 20:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Why would the Doctor have rules about a book that was written after his own death, if that's when it was written? I think it's a diary that River owns (and the Doctor has one too) so they can compare dates, as they meet at different points in each others timeline. For instance, the Doctor might have experienced Point A and B, but River might have only experienced Point A so far. If that makes sense... Will101 17:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I also think it unlikely that it is a book written about him after his death or that River Song is trying to con the Doctor. She is certainly keeping some things hidden but her attitudes and feelings towards the Doctor seem far too genuine, and anyway why would she be so sure of the Doctor showing up is they were enemies? Doorofnight 18:50, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Towards the beginning of the episode, River Song takes the Doctor aside and flips through the book. She says that he "looks young" and it must have been the "early days" for him. She then looks at the pages, and asks if he's been with her at certain points in time. I think that the Blue Book is obviously her diary keeping track of their shared experiences, to keep them both on the 'same page,' so it were, when they're together. Seeing as they're both living two separate timelines that intersect at various points, they'd need a reference to which points the other has experienced so far, and that is the Blue Book! River Song (since she said herself that the Doctor isn't allowed to see the book) writes down each experience shared, and orders them presumably in the Doctor's timeline. MrCatharsis 08:20, April 23, 2010 (UTC) == Recognizing the Doctor==

"Her" Doctor... Does anyone not think she could mean the Eleventh Doctor? Just a theory, mind you.Matoro3311 "Shout At Me""My Contribs" 14:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well...no. She identifies the Tenth Doctor as her Doctor, recognising him, just not how youthful he is. --Tangerineduel 15:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)





I agree with Tangerineduel. Also, from Silence in the Library, "from the face it's the early days" suggests that when she met the doctor in her past, it was still the tenth doctor, but may have regenerated later. 74.67.62.14 18:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The way that the story is put forth, and how she uses it to try and identify what era of Doctor he is, asking if they've done certain things together from the book, its obviously her diary of her travels with him in the future, I don't see how there's any question of it being anything else.78.105.240.23 19:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

If she has to ask the Tenth Doctor if they've met before on his first and her last meeting, she may have images of all of the doctors but she can't understand which order they are in. If she did she'd be able to say 'You're an earlier Doctor than the one I met with the Weaping Angels, so there's no point in talking to you about them'. Plus the only Doctor who can have images of all his incarnations is the Thirteenth Doctor. Unless anyone can see a flaw, could someone with the authority add this in please? 86.112.80.194 10:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC) Spacedoggie == River Song’s name==

How is her name a reference to Huckleberry Finn? Surely it's more a reference to the 1973 film adaptation of Tom Sawyer, which included the Academy Award-nominated song, River Song?  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 12:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC) == The Doctor’s name==

"His future self told her this to get his past self to trust her when he first met her."

Where is the evidence for this? considering the reaction her gave to hearing his name, its unlikely that we would tell her it just so his younger self would trust her. Taccer 07 00:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing in the episode to suggest this one way or the other. I'll take it out. 23skidoo 18:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

What evidence is there that it's even the Doctor's name? Considering how the Doctor doesn't talk about the dead it would be just as much of a shock to him to hear Romana's name or Susan's because it might imply that River had met one of them.

Because one of the members of the archaeological expedition, the woman who fell victim to the vashta nerada, asked him what she'd said to him, and he explained that she'd told him his name. I've spoken with other fans, and it's been suggested that he and River might have been married or some sort of equivalent, due to his comment that there's only one time he would or could tell someone his name.

Could the Doctor maybe shout his name out during sexual intercourse? They might not have gotten married... Will101 17:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)





again, speculate and theorize in the Howling under Forums, please. --Stardizzy2 20:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC) == River Song, It's confusing yet easy to get.==

In the episodes she appeared in, she said things like the doctor looks so young and shes never seen him look so young before. But Matt Smith is younger than David Tennant so she must not have met him but she is scheduled to appear in series 5. Have I got it wrong or did the writers make a mistake because matt smith was'nt cast yet?

When she said he was young i believe she ment by the time he was in, like he was the 10th doctor, matt was the 11th doctor so probebly by 'time lord' age. The only problem I have is that why does she think they'd done the Crash of the Byzantium in Silence in the Library when he's clearly the 10th Doctor? but as it might be she may of done that to pull in the viewers so they know there is more to it and as it is, the new episode she was at the byzantium with the doctor, it may be a giant cliff hanger that keeps on hanging on to that will soon be revieled in the later series or the new doctor, it is very hard to understand but the directer has it all figured out just doesn't want us to figure it out...


 * River doesn't realize how young the Doctor is until she looks into his eyes and studies them for a few moments and although she has the images of all his faces the fact that he never turns up in the right order might mean that she doesn't actually know the order of his regenerations.Doorofnight 18:50, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

this theory is talked about so much i can't believe we can't get an explanation for it,

made 27th, april 2010 tuesday shaannoonn briggs! shannon briggs 1997 

autistic yet a doctor who fan since i've been born 1997 copy right (UTC) 78.151.113.213 15:05, April 27, 2010 (UTC) == To appear in 2010==

I feel it would be interesting to note that in Spring 2010 she returns. If you watch the trailer http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/ you see that she's in the episodes with the Weeping Angels and BBC News stated:

"The trailer also hints at the return of Alex Kingston as River Song - an archaeologist who had appeared to have had an intimate relationship with The Doctor. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8437562.stm

Actually, never mind - I see it's been added already. Sorry! 90.195.49.219 13:16, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

By the way, has anyone got any ideas about River Song's time period? As in "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead", it suggests that either River Song was born in the 51st century or it is her adoptive time period. Also this is partially authenticated by the fact she owns a Sonic Blaster and she may have bought one, or it could indeed be Captain Jack's. Also, the first episode she appears in in series 5, is rumoured to appear UNIT, meaning it is set in present day earth, meaning she may be from the 21st century, or the doctor may have met her in the 51st century and started travelling with her. ANY IDEAS :S





Why don't you just wait to see if there are any indications of her time period in her upcoming appearance? It was clear from her debut that we weren't getting the full story on her, and that we'd have to wait.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 18:38, March 6, 2010 (UTC)





Though, there are many who think River may be a time traveller/have big links to time travel herself so if that's true she wouldn't have a time period. ~Daniel 18:28, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

i am the only one who thinks amy pond is river song ? they have similar names, the handcuffs she pins tennant and smith with ? pretty obvious to me == River Song's Photo==

why doesn't her photo show her?? i tried to change the photo but someone changed it back

That's her... DuduDoctor 14:17, February 21, 2010 (UTC)



I really don't think so... it looks nothing like her. where did you find this picture? give me the source.



It's a screenshot from the Series 5 trailer. DuduDoctor 14:26, February 21, 2010 (UTC)



How do you know it's her though?



Well... That's her face, so... :PDuduDoctor 16:25, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have seen many filming pictures of the woman in the photo without the shades - it is River Song. Delton Menace 16:43, February 25, 2010 (UTC) == Biography==

In the middle of the third paragraph, the writing falls apart.

First, there's this sentence: "There was a suggestion that in the future the Doctor's personal future she would carry a similar journal, as she commenteted about needing to "compare" diaries." And then the rest of the section switches back and forth between past and present tense, often in the same sentence. --166.135.137.95 12:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

== Being a Time Agent ==

Time Agents were invented by Steven Moffat in The Doctor Dances and Empty Child, and River Song was created by Moffat in Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead. She is a Time Traveller from the 51st Century, so it fits!

I dont think we can assume that Steven Moffat created River Song with 100% confidence, If you've watched many of the episodes for past series with commentary there's been many mentions by the writters (including Moffat talking about Blink) that they get a basic outline of ideas, characters and concepts to include, Riversong could've been one of these. I could be very wrong of course but I'd like some clarification before I just assume he created the character. Same goes for Captain Jack, I'm pretty sure he first appeared in The Empty Child in Series 1, which was written by Moffat and I personaly don't think he's a Moffat's alone either. Again everything I just said could be so very wrong, but it's my opinion lol. Lyco 02:22, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

== "Stonehendge"?==

I'm sorry, but I'm rather shocked to see a spelling error like this not being mentioned on a locked page. Could someone who has the ability to do so change it to it's correct spelling of Stonehenge? Daydreamerdeluxe 21:51, April 24, 2010 (UTC) == Small Timeline Niggle==

A minor issue with the Timeline - we cannot be sure whether 'The Bone Meadows' occurs before or after 'The Asgard Picnic'86.25.179.64 01:17, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Possibly a Time Lord?
Could it be possible that River Song is infact a Time Lord or part Time Lord?

It could be possible yes, there is a reference in "Flesh and Stone" that she's a "complex being" formed in "time" (or something like that) ~Daniel 18:10, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I strongly suspect so...

1) She got a tardis lesson from someone other than the doctor - implying interaction with another timelord or her co-existing with Gallifrey.

question:could this be from Romana who is in espace? or a child of Romana, the only other time lord known to not be locked in the time war or dead (like the master?) It could also be a relation of Jenny (Doctor's daughter) but that would be creepy.

/* I believe Jenny has never ever seen a Tardis before and since there's just one and it belongs to the Doctor, I think we could discard that hipotesis. I do really believe she is a Timelord, just like the Master was. I also believe she is in a mission to kill the Doctor, so the other Timelords can come out of their prison to rule the Universe */

2) River said "Aren't we all...[Fairytales]" at the end of "Flesh & Stone". I think statements have been made before that since the Timewar lockdown the Time Lords are generally considered myths.


 * I agree that there is some strong evidence for River Song being a Time Lord(although that might just be what Moffat wants us to think) and if she is a Time Lady we have already met before my guess would be that it is Romana. Susan and Jenny are out because the relationship is wrong and the characterization of River, especially in relation to the Doctor, doesn't fit with the Rani's personality or interests. Of course, if it is yet another case of a Chameleon Arch then it could well be the Rani as well. The biggest red flag in this line of reasoning, although there are several ways to explain it away, is how the Doctor doesn't realize she is a Time Lady(again, assuming there isn't a Chameleon Arch being used). It certainly makes sense that if she doesn't have a Tardis herself that she is unable to travel through time like the Doctor, and Romana has shown interest in staying in one place and helping, and she was always a better Tardis piolet than the Doctor, and certainly would have the technical knowledge to make something to prevent herself from being identifiable as a Time Lord, but the open question is, why would she want to?Doorofnight 18:50, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Writing in High Gallifreyan lends at least minor credence to the "Mistress Rani" hypothesis. Sochwa 15:18, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

And it offers another interpretation as to why she's so hot on lots of timelord culture/tech. Although it does require explaining in terms of why the Doctor hasn't noticed she's a timelord (although Matt Smith does seem to roleplaying a slightly stupid doctor, so not too much explaining...)131.111.184.82 21:09, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Why is everyone trying to make her Romana? If she is a TimeLord she is the Master. You can make that Master fit much better than any other Timelord. His next regen might not be as over-the-top insane with the drumming stopped. 173.57.144.238 19:42, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Surely, if she's a TimeLord then she is the 'cloned' daughter of the doctor, it would make so much more sense!!

She'll meet the Doctor at least twice more
She'll meet him at least twice more, won't she? Once to start their journeys together and then a second time for him to give her his screwdriver. I'm thinking that it'll the the twelfth Doctor before she gets the screwdriver though, after all, the Eleventh Doctor has his own unique one, unless he chooses to build a special one. Mc hammark 08:59, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure she'll meet him a few more than that! We know she'll see him next "when the pandorica opens" though when that'll be, I'm not sure! ~Daniel 18:23, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Given that the cracks are this seasons "theme", and the Pandorica relates to them, it is logical to assume the opening of the Pandorica will take place at the end of the current season. Unhari 22:01, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

She is next featured in the finale involving the pandorica. She was seen filming with the Doctor and Amy at Stonehenge for the finale, and then seen with the running through Stonehenge in the trailer. Delton Menace 22:06, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * From events in her diary, there are at least five more meetings:


 * -The Opening of The Pandorica


 * -The Bone Meadows


 * -A Picnic at Asgard


 * -Visits The End of The Universe


 * -And their second-to-last-encounter, where he gives her a sonic screwdriver (and possibly shortly after his regeneration into his twelfth or thirteenth incarnations, as she refers to him having a "new suit") - A Visit to The Singing Towers of Darillium. Unhari 22:09, May 1, 2010 (UTC)"

It's been rumored that she'll appear as a companion with him next season, so we'll see. Obvously we know that the Opening of the Pandorica is going to happen, as it's a series-long arc. Musedae 15:19, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

It's likely that the Doctor has already given his screwdriver to River as of Season 5. The Eleventh Doctor says that he and River "always" meet in the wrong order, suggesting that he's had more than one previous meeting with her. In "The Waters of Mars", the Doctor is wearing a blue suit which is apparently new, as his old blue suit is bunched up on the floor in Rose's bedroom right now (River mentioned that the last time they'd met, he'd worn a new suit). The loss of Donna has aged him, emotionally (River was nonplussed by the Doctor's appearance, which hints, though does not prove, that she's met this incarnation before, but she is surprised by how much younger he seems). And the Sonic Screwdriver he gives River is similar in design to the one the Tenth Doctor carries. I suggest that during the untelevised interval between "Waters of Mars" and "The End of Time", the Doctor sought River out, perhaps for support after his "Time Lord Triumphant" episode, coupled with the recent loss of Donna and the impending prophesy of his death. Upon realizing that he'd reached her on the eve of the library mission, he gave her his recently-upgraded Sonic Screwdriver (And subsequently went back to using the "older" version seen in the rest of the series). River, when facing her own death, concludes that the Doctor's sadness during their last meeting had been due to his foreknowledge of her impending death, but perhaps it could be attributed to a confluence of several causes, including not only River's death, but also the events of the 2009 season. DorianX 23:57, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

In the very first series of Doctor Who The Doctor's assistant is his daughter. She could be a timelord. I don't know what happened to her but she could have regenerated into River? Or maybe she's Jenny?

Amy Pond - River Song
After reading another message on this page, it seems likely to me that Amy Pond may be River Song, though I am not sure, there's a reference to handcuffs in the episode Flesh and Stone which links Amy Pond's first appearance in which she handcuffs the doctor, and at the end of Flesh and Stone when River says "You, me, handcuffs; does it always end this way?" ~Daniel 18:16, May 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a reference to the end of "Forest of the Dead" (when River died). River had handcuffs and when the Doctor asked her why she said "Spoilers..." DuduDoctor 10:29, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless Amy/River is a Time Lord it is unlikely that they are the same person since the series has it well established that bad things happen if a person touches a different version of themselves, the only people who can get around this are Time Lords. Doorofnight 20:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The actresses are too similar in age and too different in looks to be the same character. What I think though, is that River could be Amy's daughter. We know that Amy wouldn't end up with the Doctor, she's chosen Rory, so unless Rory dies, that ain't gonna happen. Mc hammark 12:29, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well yup, Rory did die so that's not gonna happen. And Amy did try to do it with the Dr, so.....
 * Well yup, Rory did die so that's not gonna happen. And Amy did try to do it with the Dr, so.....


 * • Well, regarding touching a different version of oneself: Amy and young Amy touched when 'pandorica Amy' arrived, checking young Amy's height and hair. This one may be a fluke given the end of the universe and exploding TARDIS, but this is something to consider. I am the Lhikan! ( TaLk )  6   3   4

20:06, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

River Killed a Man? (Matta_jr's theory)
Is no one else wondering who she killed. I personally think it may be the Doctor because she hints that he will be there when she kills this man and she also says he was something like 'the kindest(/best/good etc) man shed ever known). Does this sound plausable to anyone else? Perhaps thats what happens when the Pandorcia opens? Perhaps at the end of this series? Matta jr 21:49, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Matt Smith has already signed on for season 6, so he won't die at the end of the season. Secondly, River's statement that she learned to fly the TARDIS from "the best", but not the Doctor means that she may have killed this person. Just a theory.Unhari 21:58, May 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * In The Pandorica Opens, River claims that she learned to pilot the TARDIS from the Doctor. Given her tone, her previous claim otherwise may have been nothing more than taunting the Doctor, as she sometimes seems wont to do.DorianX 04:34, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think that she does indicate that this man was the doctor, or prehaps another time lord

Do you really think she would be able to look the Doctor in the eye with the knowledge that she killed him? Furthermore that she is helping Father Octavian so she can be released early? Unhari 22:11, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

It seemed to be hinted pretty strongly that it is the Doctor that River's in prison for killing - but that doesn't mean that she actually does kill him, merely that it's preferable for people to believe that at the time. 22:28, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

She does know how to [permanently] kill a timelord (both hearts at the same time), which might suggest she has to means to kill the Doctor.

(She could also BE the Doctor, regenerating into her would figuratively "kill" the doctor. And would explain her knowledge of his name.)

I would say that it is strongly implied that the murder victim is the Doctor. Apart from River saying it was the "best man [she's] ever known," Octavian calls the victim "a hero to many" and tells the Doctor that he "really [doesn't] want to know" who it was. And the Doctor seems to draw the right conclusion from it, with his mention afterward about how timelines can be changed (which calls back to what he said in the previous episode about it still being possible for him to die even though he has a "future" with River). Clearly he's planning to try to prevent his own death. (Hopefully that works out better for him than the last time he tried it.) Also, in that Moffat interview linked from the main page, Moffat suggests that just as the Doctor knows how River's life ends, River might know how the Doctor's life ends. —Robotech Master 05:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

"the Doctor knows how River's life ends, River might know how the Doctor's life ends" I love this idea!! Very sureal!

Im not saying that River killed the Doctor out of spite (as Unhari seems to think im surgesting). Perhaps she had to kill him? And maybe she didn't completely kill him? She could have just caused him to regenerate ,but Octavian didnt know he could regenerate, and so thought he was dead. I think this would be a good story. Matta jr 13:00, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

That's a good point. Adeledie shot herself to preserve the timeline, so I supose it is theoretically possible that River had to kill one of the Doctor's incarnations to preserve the timeline. This could also explain how before she left for the library, the Doctor turned up in "A new suit", which could imply a recent regeneration. Unhari 14:42, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Well she said that he turned up with "a new haircut and a suit" which I think implies he was just getting dressed up for the *oh-so-lovely* event.

I think this is what we are meant to think. I don't think River kills the Doctor, but 'they' want us to think that. Fan555 14:47, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

On the supposition that she does "kill" a given incarnation of the Doctor, one can determine by simple logic that she already has to know, in some fashion at some given point, about his regenerative qualities, and thus that she doesn't/didn't truly end his life, because she in fact sends the message that he receives at the (current, storywise) end of her own life. They're in the 51st century, home to Captain Jack Harkness; it's not outrageous to postulate that Octavian could've thought him the greatest Time Agent of them all, while simultaneously not knowing anything about the Time Lords of Gallifrey. --ChrisK 10:19, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. My own belief is that River does indeed kill the Doctor, but just one of his incarnations. I don't think the "best man she ever knew" could be anyone but the Doctor. It's certainly possible that she might be put in prison for this if no one knew of the Doctor's ability to regenerate. Bluebox444 10:50, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

And the Tenth Doctor said to River that there was only one time when he could tell someone his name. So there must be something that happens to the Doctor only once. It can't be when he regenerates, because there's more than one time he can do that, but you can only die once, can't you. Mc hammark 13:39, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

It is hinted that the time he reveals his name is when he marries River. Unhari 22:46, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ah Ah Ah! I disagree with your statement, Unhari. It is hinted that he reveals his name to River at a very, very important moment for him. We've already seen that he's been married several times, ("Got married, bit of a mistake..."). You can be married multiple times, you can only die once, as Mchammark stated. We'll see what happens in the future (or the past), obviously, since we've already been informed that she'll be appearing when the Pandorica opens (she remembers it well). Musedae 15:17, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

That is, unless she falls into a rift, erasing her presence from history and we never see her again.

How about River being the Doctor's mother, or at least being present at his birth/looming and knowing his name from then, something else that only happens once as far as I am aware.

at the beginning of "The Time Of The Angels" the Bishop(however you spell it) told river to not let the doctor work out who she is and what she has done otherwise he wouldnt want to help him and this and a few other hints indicate that SHE KILLED HIM

If Amy Pond is River Song then she does kill the doctor in Amy's Choice

Could it be, that somehow the dreamlord (who is technically the doctor) got out of the dream world and into the real world, and River killed him? Also, is it possible that the cracks are centered around River, and so technically she killed Rory? The Captain Tornado 16:05, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

it's implied very strongly that river will kill the doctor. so i don't think that's going to happen: way to obvious. she's going to kill some other 'well respected' person.

though it is also possible that she kills the doctor, but with a very good reason and possibly even his consent. (after which he may or may not regenerate. is it still 'murder' then?)

the only thing that is about 99% sure is that all that talk about her 'killing some-one' is meant to set up a story-line for her.

'Uh Hi everyone. I just want to say that I'm almost 100% sure about is that she didn't kill the Doctor. There are three reasons for this:'

1. It makes a great big hype about who she killed, and 'they' would most certainly want us all to believe that she killed the Doctor

2. Father Octavian said that he was 'a hero to many', yet at first Octavian didn't trust the Doctor at all, and even when he told him who she killed he still had pretty much no idea that the Dr was a hero.

'3. In Forest of the Dead, River knew him (the 'real' him). Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone was set before FOTD (obviously) so another hint that she didn't kill him.'

I did have another reason...but i forgot it as I was writing this...dang it.

Jemima B

What about River being Lucy Saxon? She'd know how to kill a Time Lord, and killed a man that she considered 'great and a hero to many.' If she wasn't entirely human, she could have survived. And, we don't know anything of her history with the Master; they could have spent tons of time together in the TARDIS when he stole it. That being said, she could have been sent to marry/be with the Master for a higher purpose to begin with. I'm thinking this has something to do with the return of Omega, but there you have it. 96.255.216.167 23:12, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

We're meant to believe that River killed the Doctor, perhaps in their very first meeting. When she apologizes that after their next meeting, "Everything changes," we might take this to mean that River is (in her own timeline) a former villain who has reformed. That she killed the Doctor on their first meeting (the Doctor being hamstrung by the fact that he's unwilling to risk her death), but over the course of subsequent antagonistic encounters, she eventually was convinced to change her ways and atone. This does, however, feel very much like misdirection on the part of the writers. That the first half of their relationship (from River's point-of-view) was as enemies might also explain the "You, me, handcuffs," comment. In this scenario, it's also possible that engendering the notion that she and the Doctor are married is, while not an intentional deception, a sort of whitewashing of a past she's now ashamed of, with River reinterpreting their previous battles as a kind of courtship. DorianX 23:57, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

River was married to The Doctor
On this past weekend episode (The Time of Angels) didn't Amy Pond ask River if she were married to the Doctor in their future (51st century ?) Amy was questioning why River knew so much about the Doctor.

River did not deny or confirm the answer and only told Amy that she was "really good, you are really good" for figuring things out.

Monster Files - possible hint?
Any chance the Monster Files are providing a hint as to the true nature of River Song? Has anyone else noticed that the writing in the diary and the way all the art is drawn is designed exactly the same as the Doctor's "Journal of Impossible Things" when he was human in Human Nature/Family of Blood? Perhaps it isn't her journal at all...

96.56.228.202 12:24, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

i was just thinking the same thing :/, maybe it is the journel...but it is doubtful at this point to speculate on such things Ooiue 06:24, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

John Smiths Journal
The Doctor did draw pictures of various "Doctors" in this journal. I think that River Song has this journal.


 * We've only seen a picture of the tenth Doctor in it, none of the others. She may have got a hold of it, or a version of the published book. The Thirteenth Doctor 22:30, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Near human?
Why is near-human added to her race? What has she done that is not human, exactly? Vegnas 06:55, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Because her identity is very ambitious. For all know know, she could be a Time Lord. Although she is assumed to be human, we can't quite say for a fact with River because she could be anything or anyone. Delton Menace 08:05, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting point...
Isn't it interesting that despite the fact that River was/will be present for the events of "The Pandorica Opens", she doesn't seem to know anything about the crack in "Flesh and Stone"? Bluebox444 02:51, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Spoiler Tag?
This page should not have a spoiler tag on it. The page shouldn't have any spoilers on it in the first place. The article is a main page, so should be readable without the possibility of reading spoilers. Unless we count the "future events of the doctor" as spoilers. The Thirteenth Doctor 11:35, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

List of Appearances?
Shouldn't River have her own list of appearances page by now? I think she's been in enough episodes and shes's even had archive footage in one... --Slowpoketail 00:54, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

river is the doctor?
71.84.18.182 02:33, June 18, 2010 (UTC)isnt it possible that river is a future regeneration of the doctor

Absurd: why would the Doctor marry himself/herself? EltharionDrax 12:44, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

There's no proof that they married yet. Just hints. And River has stated that the doctor often lies, as well as that she herself tells lies. I wouldn't discount this theory just yet. - 9:15 (GMT), June 29, 2010

New River Song image
From here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sxfc7 is the OK? DuduDoctor 14:53, June 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * It isn't. I've reverted it to the Aplans one. That image is from an unaired episode, which should not be used on a main article page. The Thirteenth Doctor 15:48, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

River is the doctors human mother, first child, half human sister
I would have liked her to be his human mother, but that story has been done.

Have the issues raised over the Eighth Doctor's speech about having a human mother ever been resolved? I have a feeling as Matt Smiths first season has progressed that the "good man" she killed may have been the Doctor's father?

I'm new at this and I don't know how to make a new topic but I just realised that River probably used the Vortex Manipulator she got to escape her impending death in the TARDIS.


 * Doubt it. If you look closely, the Vortex Manipulator is with the Doctor when he speaks with River on the TARDIS.-  I. Am. Excalibur-117  -(talk • contribs) 12:13, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistency/Deduced time travel event
In "the pandorica opens" River Song is imprisoned in Stormcage in the 52nd century - she escapes for the events of pandorica & big bang - but then at some point ends up in Stormcage again (so she can be released for "time of the angels") - however, this second imprisonment takes place in the 51st century - ie long before her first escape, and presumably before she was first imprisoned. There's a lot of speculation that could be done here, and I'm gonna refrain from doing so. But the fact remains that this is something not addressed in the text, and thus makes it very misleading. (the default interpretation of the article now reads as if she was recaptured as a result of escaping.). Anyone care to implement this information? 'cause right now I'm to confused by all the wibbly wobbly to pull it off well. -- Capricorn 15:10, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm taking it as she time travels to the 51st century and is then imprisoned. The Thirteenth Doctor 15:26, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * She killed the best man and was imprisoned for it. This is before Time of Angels. She is then released into Father Octavian's custody for her adventure with the Doctor. She doesn't do enough to earn her pardon so is put back in the Stormcage. The 51st century is followed by the 52nd century. She then gets the phone call from Winston Churchill and escapes the Stormcage. Sorted.
 * No, the version of her that the Doctor encountered in the last two episodes is from before the whole Weeping Angels incident. She told the Doctor that herself: she told him that they'd meet at the Pandorica and that "she remembers it well" meaning that this River is from further back in her timeline. Oh and she probably did do enough to earn her pardon, she believed she did and it was the deal for her helping to deal with the Weeping Angels.--WarGrowlmon18 17:04, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

we've forgotten a living time lord...
Could River be Jenny

Makes no sense: Why whould Jenny marry her "father"? EltharionDrax 08:54, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

So far the only evidence that they were married comes from River, who could be lying in order to hide her true identity??? Geek Mythology 12:09, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Jenny isn't even a time lord. she doesn't regenerate, she repairs herself with bio-energy from that terraformer. read her article

river - Amy
Does anyone remember in "weeping angels" after the dr jumps into the ship that as he looks up at amy, she looks like River?

River is prisoner zero?
I know this doesn't seem to make sense, but I have to wonder. She is in prison, and Octavian states that she isn't who she appears to be. We know that prisoner zero can take any form, and as long as it isn't several bodies at once that it has no trouble talking and imitating that person's voice. So perhaps the River that we have been seeing is prisoner zero with the real River somewhere else? Like I said, I don't think this will turn out to be true, but it's still fun thinking about it, because we don know that there is much about River song that we don't know about. I'm especially curious to find out who the person it that she kills. 24.254.162.166 01:51, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

It does make some sense if you look at it from a certain angle and put a few clues together...And when you do you end up with the fan boy answer of "The Rani" or "Romana".

Just consider these facts:-

1. Prisoner zero vaguely looks like the Master's snake spirit.

2. Regardless of who taught her to fly the Tardis, she can still fly the Tardis.

3. Steven Moffat says that there is more to her than meets the eye (cue series 6 for more answers)

4. Steven Moffat said that the villian was there from the beginning of the series, but is in another form.

I know all of this could mean anything, but it does seem a little appertising all the same :)

Pantohorse 20:23, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Lol maybe shes his daughter? :O jenny or whatever... that would be a good twist :O

MY Theory :) River Killing A Man....
...Well, My idea is that she states she kills a man - blah blah blah, hero to all, blah blah blah, kindest man she ever met,

but he didn't teach her to fly the tardis etc. - Yes we've all read the passed 72 messages about it on this page - HOWEVER.

Some people seem to forget that The David Tennant Incarnation of the Doctor is still with Rose in the Parrallel World with all his

memories etc.

IT could be possible that HE is the doctor she kills - (Seeing as he can't regenerate) - That's also how she may get a copy of his screw driver (Don't know how exactly, but there could be a plot twist) - Yet another Version of the doctor, one she thinks flies the Tardis much better, taught her to pilot. Which would also cover 'you look much younger' - and the 'new suit' comments. Tennant in parrallel world Ages - and no doubt he will need to change clothes like normal people.

And MAYBE on a separate note, She has spent time with the Master, tricked to believe that he was the Doctor, She doesn't know what he's going to look like,

and the Master knows the Doctor's real name - as does the Doctor know The Master's. So The Master could tell River so that she would trust him - Or Maybe the name she gave the tenth docotr was a nickname the master gave him. which is why it scares him. 'There is only one time i could say that name' or whatever, maybe a time where he refer's to an old nickname given by the Master. - I REALLY don't know, talking out my arse, but i like all these random thoughts a few people haven't considered. :)

- If you want to respond to a name so we know who you're all talking to/about, just call me Josh P for now. =D Cheers!

Or any of the above theories. It's great to speculate :D Pantohorse 11:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Yeahhh, moffat will never bring back rose or that totally stupid metacrisis doctor thing. Mr Hat And Clogs 22:13, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

River in 2010
So how'd she get to 2010 after the universe was reset??? She didn't look like she aged so she probably didn't just live out 14 years from 1996 to 2010 and the Doctor had her vortex manipulator. So how did she get there to remind Amy (presumably she was immune to the time changes as she was a time travler and the new Amy wasn't)???--WarGrowlmon18 04:14, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * As the entire universe reset, I would assume she would have been sent back to a moment where she had the vortex manipulator. Like how Amy was back in her room and Rory was still alive. Lukefrywalker 10:22, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * They weren't sent back there, that's where they were in the new timeline where the cracks never happened. River clearly didn't have her Vortex Manipulator after time reset: the Doctor clearly gave it back to her himself after he returned and she used it to teleport away.--WarGrowlmon18 19:09, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * They were told that they would go back to where they belong, which is why we see Amy waking up on the morning of her wedding. This is point that she left with the Doctor so hence the point she is returned to. On this basis River Song should have been in a prison cell in the 51/2st century, the point where we picked her up at the start of the story, and she should have no clear memory of the Doctor, let alone Amy & Rory.
 * Outside Amy's house on June 26, 2010 was the last place River had been in the pre-destroyed universe, so it's where she ended up when the Pandorica rebuilt the universe.DorianX 23:57, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * They were told that they would go back to where they belong, which is why we see Amy waking up on the morning of her wedding. This is point that she left with the Doctor so hence the point she is returned to. On this basis River Song should have been in a prison cell in the 51/2st century, the point where we picked her up at the start of the story, and she should have no clear memory of the Doctor, let alone Amy & Rory.
 * Outside Amy's house on June 26, 2010 was the last place River had been in the pre-destroyed universe, so it's where she ended up when the Pandorica rebuilt the universe.DorianX 23:57, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

"... could shoot it through the eyestalk with an Alpha meson gun, killing it." The shot or aftermath were not seen or heard, so we only have Rivers claim without any evidence.92.232.57.66 22:05, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

River the Killer
For me, the fact that River killed someone and doesn't seem to show ANY kind of remorse about it- to say nothing of the easy manner in which she killed the Stone Dalek- makes it clear to me that she CAN'T be the Doctor's wife; considering that we're talking about the man who couldn't even bring himself to kill Davros (Resurrection of the Daleks) or the Daleks themselves (Genesis of the Daleks)- to say nothing of him repeatedly trying to save the Master (The Time Monster, Last of the Time Lords), I can't see him marrying someone capable of that kind of ruthlessness... MarcusSLazarus 14:19, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Did River Song kill the Stone Dalek? While we see the River confront and threaten it as it begs for mercy. We have witnessed Daleks being shot by companions before (Mickey) so why not show it this time? We don't even get to hear an explosion or see smoke, the low budget options, so is this part of Rivers' riddle?


 * I think it's implied that she did since otherwise the Dalek would have almost assuredly fired his laser weapon thing at her and killed her. My guess is they did it for River's mysterious personality. The only alternative I can think of is that River used the teleportation watch thing to transport the Dalek elsewhere. Either way, I doubt we find out any more until the Christmas episode, if then.  I am the Lhikan! ( TaLk )  6   3   4  02:15, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Other companions have shot Daleks before (The Parting of the Ways, et al.), but this was in cold blood and it was begging for mercy. Tardis1963 02:22, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * River showed the Dalek the same compassion the Dalek showed her "sweetie", who had just been (possibly fatally) shot by this Dalek. What I find far more amazing than River killing the Dalek was the Dalek begging for mercy. THAT was a first. Lmb02 21:37, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Dalek calling or mercy was not a first, they are munipulative creatures, not capable of emotion but they know enough about it to exploit the emotions of their victims.
 * Anyway back to what i was saying, 2005 'Dalek'
 * the following exchange went like this, "Exterminate!" -the doctor as he throws the switch dalek screams "have pity!" the doctor "Why should i? You never did"
 * So it has happened before.
 * 122.149.87.115 16:39, July 21, 2010 (UTC)Nothing
 * I don't believe she did kill the Dalek for a couple reasons: 1) if she turns out to be the Doctor's wife (or someone of such extreme importance that he discloses his real name to her), she couldn't possibly be a cold-blooded killer. 2) On-screen shootings aren't exactly taboo in DW, so why did we not see her shoot the Dalek? 3) The dialogue between River, Rory, and Amy: "The Doctor said he was dead.." "He was lying" "What happened to the Dalek?" "It's dead"
 * She said the "he was lying thing" after the Doctor's body was missing. Before that she probably assumed him dead. Oh and that Dalek must've begged for mercy for a reason after it learned who she is. It is indicated she's a bit more ruthless then we're used to after all.--WarGrowlmon18 04:48, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * 122.149.87.115 16:39, July 21, 2010 (UTC)Nothing
 * I don't believe she did kill the Dalek for a couple reasons: 1) if she turns out to be the Doctor's wife (or someone of such extreme importance that he discloses his real name to her), she couldn't possibly be a cold-blooded killer. 2) On-screen shootings aren't exactly taboo in DW, so why did we not see her shoot the Dalek? 3) The dialogue between River, Rory, and Amy: "The Doctor said he was dead.." "He was lying" "What happened to the Dalek?" "It's dead"
 * She said the "he was lying thing" after the Doctor's body was missing. Before that she probably assumed him dead. Oh and that Dalek must've begged for mercy for a reason after it learned who she is. It is indicated she's a bit more ruthless then we're used to after all.--WarGrowlmon18 04:48, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think River did kill the Dalek. Remember she thought the Doctor was dead and everything points to her being Mrs. The Doctor. If someone killed the person you loved wouldn't you want revenge???--WarGrowlmon18 04:11, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh right, so I guess the Dalek just disappears after she dosen't shoot it (!) Of course she killed it, and yes, on screen shootings usually are averted. It would have ruined the moment cinematically if she had been seen to shoot it, because the Dalek screaming Mercy was a very good point to end the scene. Whenever a shooting occurs, it's usually not seen, like the master's and jenny's deaths, only the smoking gun, or them in pain etc. Hell Kaiser ryo12 (Talk&bull;Contribs) 16:26, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

"Comparing Diaries" does NOT mean the Doctor keeps one
There is an unfounded assumption that the Doctor will sometime keep a blue diary. In both cases where River Song says she wants to compare diaries, she's reading parts of hers and asking the Doctor about them. Such as "Have we done Asgard yet? (pause) Appearantly not".

It's not a literal "compare two physical diaries", it's River comparing her diary with the Doctor to see where they are in her diary.

Wanted to mention that here and wait for any response before editing the page. Lmb02 21:32, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree the series has yet to establish this, though bear in mind the Doctor has' kept a diary in the past (both a 500-year and a 900-year diary have appeared dating back to Troughton), so never say never. 68.146.81.123 13:22, July 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * ''Follow the dialogue in Time of Angels. I'll try to get the exact words, but it's when Amy starts to walk over to look in River's diary:

Doctor: It's her diary

River: OUR diary

I would think that is rather definitive. Lmb02 01:58, July 15, 2010 (UTC)''

Error in the opening
Could someone correct an error in the opening? It says that River is the "only companion" who knows the Doctor's true name. First, this is incorrect due to the fact this Wiki combines all the continuities, and companion Samantha Jones became aware of the Doctor's name in the Eighth Doctor novels. Second, even if we only consider TV companions, there is nothing in any episode to suggest she is the only one. All we have is the Doctor making the statement that there was only one circumstance in which he would have given out his real name, which isn't quite the same. The "only when he marries" speculation doesn't work however because that would mean Elizabeth I would have to know his name, too. 68.146.81.123 13:22, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

Jenny = River Song?
Steven Moffat asked that Jenny survive "the doctor's daughter" and created river song during RTD's last season - possibility that river is a regeneration of Jenny?


 * Firstly, please sign your posts. Secondly, this belongs in the forums, so please keep it there. This talk page is for discussion of the article and changes to it. The Thirteenth Doctor 12:49, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Knowing the Doctors name.
I think it is incorrect to state she is the only companion to know the doctors gallifreyan name.

Romana may have known but then again i only had a mild interest with the original doctor who when it was airing a few years ago on tv.

Not only that but Rose would know the Doctors name albeit as an ex companion, and would have been told by the Meta Doctor

since he had the same memories and psychological makeup as the original and no doubt if continuity was different Rose would have had the same relationship as River will have with the Doctor.

Just a note.

122.149.87.115 16:32, July 21, 2010 (UTC)Nothing

This is all assumption. Romana may know, but we don't know Time Lord Society to know if it's something "kept within the family" as it were.

Why would the meta-Doctor tell Rose? It's still the Doctor and clearly that information is not shared except, as he said, under one circumstance (see Silence in the Library). You don't know what that circumstance is (yet?). Lmb02 16:43, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

possible useful trivia
Unless anyone can correct me on this river is the only new series created female companion to apppear in more than one episode that has yet to kiss the doctor should this be mentioned in the articleAssassin of death 00:23, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Idea
During marriage is the only time the name could have been given or during birth. But it does not explain the man she killed and for what reasons. Also in the Big Bang episode, when The Doctor is struck, River Song shows emotionals for The Doctor. Dalek knew River Song and kept on repeating mercy.

River and Torchwood
At the end of the last series, she had a vortex manipulator, and came out with the words 'everything changes' in a series that has been known to drop us hints, is River going to be in the next series of torchwood? For which the cast list is not yet released?87.194.246.169 15:19, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Moffat more or less created River after his original mysterious 51st century flirt character went the Torchwood route. River is his Doctor Who-only version of Jack that he doesn't have to share with RTD.Zythe 19:30, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Who is River Song?
I was reading through the threads, and didn't see this theory - Maybe River Song met a Doctor before the reboot of the series? Moffat may be playing the character in a misleading way. Giving us clues as to the future meetings of The Doctor, when she may have met him before the reboot? She seems to want to help him and in "the big bang" her statement indicates he cannot recognize her, so she may have changed in some way.

Or second, maybe she is above the level of Time Lord? Could she be in fact Judgement, appearing along the doctor and his travels as a judge of his actions?

67.173.141.7 19:31, August 1, 2010 (UTC)Seij