Forum:Clarifying in-universe deadnaming policy in response to Rose Noble

So I am creating this forum in response to the latest episode of Doctor Who, TV: The Star Beast. In short, I think that we need to have a greater discussion about our in-universe deadnaming policy.

As far as I know, our wiki policy is that out-of-universe, we do not allow deadnames to be used on the pages of actors, crew members, etc. BUT we do allow redirects in cases where the person transitioned after they were credited for working on a DWU story, so people looking up names in the back of a book can find what they're looking for.

But our policy on in-universe pages is that, in our mission to archive and collect all in-universe information, we allow deadnames to be listed in the opening paragraph of a character's page, alongside redirects. This has been done specifically because we've seen many characters transition mid-narrative, such as Dorothy (The Wonderful Doctor of Oz).

However, I think we need to reconsider at least some cases, specifically the new situation of Rose Noble. As Rose is both canonically transgender and has her deadname stated in-narrative, there is naturally going to be a culture of some more... well, evil fans refusing to call her by anything but her dead name. Writing an article on a significant trans character and then having the second stated detail being her dead name could have very bad optics in my opinion.

So this is my thought: I think in cases like these, there is no need for the opening paragraphs to mention Rose's deadname. If people insist on having that information archived somewhere, you can place it in the start to the biography section. But others might think that we should simply not have deadnames on her article - it is worth debating. I also think there should be a redirect, because sadly people will see the phrase "J***n Noble" out there in the wild and will need to be able to search for the name out of context. However, use of this redirect within any articles should be absolutely banned, as this is a search-feature only redirect.

(Obviously, as Yasmin Finney was not credited for any DWU roles before transitioning, I think linking to or using *her* deadname should be considered vandalism. She does not need a redirect.)

I do understand how some would like to approach this in a case-by-case basis, but I certainly think that we need an official policy on this, and that said policy should discourage opening an article on a deadname or implying that a deadname defines a character more than anything else. OS25🤙☎️ 23:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion
I think that, when the transition is in the backstory and not shown mid-story like with Rose Noble, there is no need for the name to be mentioned in the lead. However, I feel that it should be mentioned once at the start of the biography. However, this is at odds with w:c:community:Gender_Identity_Guidelines. As Rose transitions before the episode, we shouldn't use her deadname at all under that policy. However, I feel that this is a little unhelpful: RTD considers it important to accurately portray the abuse that transgender people may exprience and Rose's deadname also has some interesting meanings (see The Star Beast (TODWP episode)). Not mentioning the deadname anywhere seems like it runs counter to this. I will clarify with User:Spongebob456. I feel that a redirect should definetly be created for searchability. Bongo50  ☎  23:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it's absurd to omit the name completely. At the end of the day, she's a fictional character and her deadname should be mentioned given that Russell T. Davies has chosen to include it in the episode, but I don't think it needs to be mentioned in her intro. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  00:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Should be documented. Shouldn't be in the intro. And there should probably be more robust changes to the rules than just this, imo. Epsilon was thinking of a few, iirc. Najawin ☎  01:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Another thing worth considering is whether Rose should be included in the disambiguation page for her deadname. I'm leaning towards yes in some form for the same reason we'd have a redirect. Bongo50   ☎  12:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think the deadname should be omitted entirely. It is irrelevant, and given its context, it will make every trans user's heart sink when they get to the name, wherever it is. It is almost certainly the majority opinion within the trans community itself that deadnames are unacceptable on any wiki, please take that into consideration. User:Hasrock36 13:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "it will make every trans user's heart sink when they get to the name, wherever it is"


 * elaborate on this 103.247.152.236talk to me 13:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

exactly what Hasrock says. My heart certainly did sink with those parts (also trans). And with ref to “respecting RTD’s intent” the point is moot he is not trans


 * Yasmin Finney is trans though, and there are many other people on the production team who are trans. They would have agreed with this depiction. The whole point is to emphasise the abuse trans people face, plus it also forms a significant part of their character as an extension of the DoctorDonna. To ignore it would be a massive disservice in my opinion. 85.255.235.211talk to me 14:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Elaborating for103.247.152.236 as a trans woman myself seeing wikis and the like include deadnames feels like another stab in the heart, and a reminder that the world doesn't listen to us, or think that we belong. Its not just raw data, you have got to consider the impact on the affected community who will read this page.User:Hasrock36 15:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It’s in the episode itself, so you cannot expect people to just forget it exists. Every time you watch the episode you will be exposed to it. And I agree that it’s an important inclusion to show that this abuse exists. And Juno Dawson (herself a trans person) agrees with why RTD included it. Danniesen ☎  15:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Reasons for and against inclusion in the episode itself are different to the reasons for and against including it on her wiki page User:Hasrock36 15:55, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Rose's birthname is a fact of her character and should be included in the article as a point of information, just like how someone's original surname would be included in articles where their name was changed through marriage. This should be a dry, apolitical and professionally written article. To leave it out entirely is silly. It doesn't need to be dwelled on, but a tactfully written point towards it is something that absolutely should be included. While Rose is a woman, she was named "Jason" by her parents at birth. That's a fact. This is a database of facts. It belongs. CaptainKaibyo ☎  16:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It should definitely not be included in the lede or infobox, but I do think mention it in the biography at the appropriate point is useful. We are here to reflect sources' content, not editorialise. But the concern about genuine psychological distress to some readers, albeit secondhand/in sympathy to an imaginary character, is a genuine one. This sort of links back to our discussions on trigger warnings and so on.


 * Again taking a page out of other online platforms' books (as I recently suggested we do with regards to editing windows at Forum:What does it mean for a story to be released in its entirety?), I wonder if we might not find a technical way to implement spoilered text, so that by default, a reader would see only "Rose was originally born under the deadname ■■■■■", but they'd be able to click it and see the name if they so desire. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 17:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

How are new queer viewers of the show going to react when they look up her wiki page and see the most basic courtesy to trans people isn't followed here? Because in queer circles other sci fi wikis have decided to include deadnames and some people just refuse to even use that wiki, there are even private forks because its considered such a red flag. Keep the deadname in and lose the trust of many queer users. User:Hasrock36 17:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Something I'll note is the fact that Wikipedia even mentions deadnames for certain individuals, namely those who were known by it for years before transitioning like Caitlyn Jenner or Elliot Page. Rose Noble is obviously a fictional character so I think rules should be a bit relaxed here


 * Frankly though if we start omitting stuff due to "distress" then frankly this wiki has failed at its purpose. This is a database of info. There are many other articles on this wiki that could just as easily be argued to cause distress. There's also T:NOT SFW which can also be applied to this. 185.69.144.51talk to me 17:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Good points. Also… maybe unimportant, but in regards to Caitlyn Jenner, she has stated on Twitter, as a joketweet I guess, that she doesn’t care if she’s presented as Bruce Jenner either. Danniesen ☎  17:33, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Let me emphasize the point of Rose being fictional. We do not refer to trans people who actually exist with their deadnames. Mentioning the deadname of a fictional character is not something that is particularly similar in kind. As far as I see it, and others may, of course, correct me if I'm wrong, there are three reasons to avoid deadnaming someone on a page recounting facts about them.
 * Because the names simply never described them in the first place and it's an inaccurate reflection of who they were, so there's no reason they should be there.
 * To avoid triggering other trans/nb/gf/etc people who have experienced trauma related to being misgendered.
 * And as a broader political statement to simply normalize never ever mentioning deadnames.
 * I could be avoiding a few here, but these seem to be the obvious ones to me. In the case of Rose, the first concern just doesn't apply. We're not calling her by her deadname, we're saying people in the story used it. In the same sense if people in the story used particularly harsh insults that were relevant to the writer's intent, we'd include those on the character page as well, even if they don't actually reflect the character. The third is fair enough, but I'm not convinced it's something that has a place on this wiki. We can make an active choice to minimize doing so, and I support that, but I'm less than convinced that removing them entirely is something we should do. They're in the story for a reason. I'd get rid of a lot of parts of Doctor Who if I could. But it's still there.


 * And thus we come to reason number 2. And this is an understandable concern. It's one many of us share. It's also one that we can never ever find consensus on. See Forum:Temporary forums/Content warning templates. That thread ended in glorious failure. A lot of us absolutely understand that there's content on this wiki that's traumatic to segments of the fanbase and we wish that we could do more to balance that with also documenting things fully. But we just haven't found a way to do it yet. I'd love to find a way to do so. To both keep all of this information while making sure that users don't unintentionally run into things that are traumatic. If spoiler bars work, I'm down for that. If we need to reconsider content warnings, and more people from outside the community are willing to work with us this time to hammer them out, let's try that again. Najawin ☎  18:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The wiki can choose to ignore point 3 if it likes, but it can never again in good faith hold any pride event and claim to support the LGBTQ+ community. You question whether taking that stance has a place on the site, well inaction is itself an action, choosing to not take that stance is still taking a stance so please consider that also. User:Hasrock36 18:53, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

That’s not how it works, sorry. Danniesen ☎  18:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I beg you to consider the points of view of trans people, to whom we should defer on this issue. Just because the information exists doesn't mean that republishing it is harmless.Aresef ☎  19:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

(As a technical point to those joining us for the first time: always post your message at the end of the discussion. If you're replying to an older message, just quote the relevant bits in italics/quotation marks for clarity's sake, but don't post it earlier in the discussion thread. If you do that, it's easy for someone to miss your message altogether because they only check the bottom of the page for new posts. I've moved User:Aresef's message accordingly.) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 19:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Based on Scrooge's suggestion from earlier, I've put together . Here's an example:
 * Some text in this sentence is and must be clicked to be viewed.
 * If we choose to go ahead with this idea, I need to clean up a few things before it's used in articles, namely improving accesibility (as this would currently play havock with screen readers which can be improved with a bit of work) and writing documentation. Bongo50   ☎  19:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Is there a way to smooth the bars together? As it stands it suggests to me that someone just typed a bunch of square unicode characters for some reason, or something that failed to render properly.


 * I think we've all agreed that this information isn't harmless, and that we want to mitigate that harm as best we can without compromising accuracy. (Similar to how we minimized the "surface area" of our slurs by consolidating them on a select few pages where we could address them with the appropriate historical nuance.) The issue is that at least one user is suggesting we go further - make a political point that deadnames should never be mentioned regardless of context. And I think this point is just wrongheaded. Deadnames are not angels, they are not basilisks. They don't cause harm by merely existing. They cause harm through the context in which they're displayed, the people interacting with them, and the broader social context surrounding this interaction. They're not metaphysically toxic. They're just something that can cause real distress because of broader context. That's what we have to be aware of. Najawin ☎  20:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Agreed. This wiki exists to collect and provide information on the Doctor Who universe and it was a decision made by Russell T. Davies to include Rose's deadname in the episode. Why would we choose to pretend that this wasn't the case by omitting the information? If somebody has a problem with Rose's deadname being revealed, then that's a problem that they have with Russell T. Davies and not with a wiki that records this information. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  20:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Would noting the deadname violate Fandom TOU on deadnaming? Even though Rose is a part of the whoniverse, I've seen some readings that the TOU extends into in-universe matters Editoronthewiki ☎  21:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Najawin: I've made a change. Does it look better now?


 * Editoronthewiki: Fandom has a set of guidelines that apply specifically to in-universe characters. I'm clarifying this with User:Spongebob456. Bongo50   ☎  21:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Looks good now. Najawin ☎  21:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I strongly think using hidden text is setting a bad precedent. Not only does it look unprofessional for a wiki to see random hidden text in the middle of an article, but also what exactly do we judge to be potentially harmful that needs to go behind such a format? It's certainly not just limited to deadnaming. This wiki has tonnes of articles on real world things that could go under that category. 185.69.144.42talk to me 21:23, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Actually yes, fair point. How do we go about that? Danniesen ☎  21:28, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * That's basically the same issue we ran into with content warnings. We can probably start with deadnames and maybe have a later thread on expanding it if we wish. Najawin ☎  21:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey so, I have nothing particularly of substance to add to the discussion, but I did want to make it known to everyone that Rose is far from being the only character this affects. Trans characters with established deadnames as part of their backstories include, but are not limited to Cleo Proctor and Eleanor Blake. WaltK ☎  21:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "it will make every trans user's heart sink when they get to the name, wherever it is"


 * who cares? why are they more special than everyone else? this wiki meticulously catalogues every other piece of information about the show.
 * "Frankly though if we start omitting stuff due to "distress" then frankly this wiki has failed at its purpose. This is a database of info. There are many other articles on this wiki that could just as easily be argued to cause distress. There's also T:NOT SFW which can also be applied to this."


 * who cares? why is this group so special the wiki needs to change for them? the world doesn't revolve around you. grow up.
 * "I beg you to consider the points of view of trans people, to whom we should defer on this issue. Just because the information exists doesn't mean that republishing it is harmless."


 * there's no harm in publishing trivia information about a fictional character. you're being dramatic. 146.70.193.79talk to me 01:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Would it be feasible to write words to the effect of: "in one scene, Rose is deadnamed by two characters as Donna comforts her and stands to her defence" (or however it's worded), with the actual deadname briefly mentioned in a footnote/endnote? That way, it's not in the body of the main article, and acts as 'extra information' right at the end, with real world clarification that RTD chose to include this scene deliberately, etc.? (Also, WaltK above me makes a good point.) — Fractal Doctor @  01:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I mean, I'd be down, but is that better than the spoiler text? Najawin ☎  01:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Haven't contributed to this discussion up until now, but I think that this seems to be an issue with several people in the trans community, and deadnaming in the in-universe section of the article could cause people distress. We should, in my opinion, avoid this wherever possible. However, I think that if we confine it to the Behind the Scenes section, and provide the appropriate context (and we really need to do something about that content warning thread), this risk can be minimised. Ideally, we could put a content warning at the top of the BTS section, setting a precedent for other places in which this is desperately needed (looking especially at somewhere like Dodo Chaplet, the info on there has an incredibly high potential for being harmful to those who have had traumatic experiences), but note that I haven't actually read the original content warning thread, and this might be forbidden by T:BOUND, or there might be compelling arguments against this. But overall, I think the takeaway is that if something causes people distress, please can we try and minimise or eliminate that distress. With regards to spoiler-tagging the information, I think it would make more sense to spoiler-tag the incident of Rose being deadnamed, as well as potentially the deadname itself. But how do we provide adequate contact for the spoiler tag without saying what it actually is we're hiding? (I'm hopeful this would be a good precedent for use in other places, though, and thank heavens we have a way to say relevant spoilery things in non-spoilery threads without having to go REDACTED). Anyhow, sorry for the long reply, 08:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Just for future reference, these are the pages that contain trans characters' deadnames; WaltK ☎  08:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Eleanor Blake
 * Cassandra O'Brien.Δ17
 * Dorothy (The Wonderful Doctor of Oz)
 * Cleo Proctor
 * Sally Salter
 * Susan (A Town Called Mercy)
 * Vanessa (Greeks Bearing Gifts)

We absolutely should NOT add spoiler tags to a wiki. It looks incredibly unprofessional. In addition, adding it to "Behind the scenes" would be factually incorrect. It's not behind the scenes. It's literally on-screen, in-universe information


 * Well, in that case, perhaps we should exclude the info from the wiki completely. If information has the potential to hurt somebody, then it is best that we are very very careful with what we do with this information. I am not personally offended by this information, but there are others who are, so we must take that into account. 09:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * All information has the "potential" to hurt somebody. I agree we need to be careful with how this is presented, but we have already removed the information from her leading paragraph. That is taking into account how some people will be offended by this information. Many of the people who are not satisfied with that will likely not be satisfied with anything other than it's full removal, which would dissatisfy another subset of users.


 * And now we are back around. No we should not. We are a wiki of of facts. Facts don’t care about feelings. We are not excluding the info. Danniesen ☎  09:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * And yet we, as non-sociopathic individuals of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens, do, and ought. If there are people who find this information traumatic in any way, then we must take that into account. 09:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It has already been taken into account. For some, nothing but total censorship will ever be enough. We must also take into account that not everyone prioritizes the integrity of this wiki, which should be our first priority as a community.


 * Yes. Which is why we are trying to figure out how to do it best. We are not removing the information that is actively given in the episode, as a wiki of facts. If the deadname had not been given at all, the issue wouldn’t be there and there would be no inclusion. But as it is given, we do include it, however we deem it fit to also think of those it affects. But we do not exclude a fact that is given outright. Frankly, if what someone else above pointed out is true that Wikipedia completely omits facts like that, that is a failure of that site, being a site of facts. We include it, but we take into account others who have feelings about it. But we don’t ultimately exclude the info. And no matter what someone else might feel about that, it does not, in fact, make the wiki anti-Pride or anti-trans or whatever word might be hurled this way. Danniesen ☎  10:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

The upset around Deadnaming sets a bad precedent for pretending the past didn't exist. By all means, we can all respectfully refer to people by their preferred names in the present. But let's not pretend it wasn't something else before. It is healthy to embrace and accept everything in life, including the past. It is how we learn from our mistakes as people. And to deny literal facts is delusional. To be able to say "I used to be X but now I'm Y" without getting upset is a sign of growth, acceptance and mental stability and maturity. You cannot expect society to accept you if you do not accept yourself and reality. Also, Doctor Who is a fictional show. Deadnaming, and one's journey to the acceptance of it, is a personal endeavour. To feel 'triggered' or 'traumatised' on behalf of someone else isn't fair to the subject of the deadnaming. It's also not fair to the wider population who have learned to accept deadnaming as described above. So to do so on behalf of a fictional character is redundant. As a society, we should be aware of peoples' feelings, which is why you may want to include a warning at the top of the page to simply state that deadnaming is mentioned on the page. However, it is not necessary, as wikis exist to portray facts, regardless of feelings. The fact is Rose used to be Jason. Jason was born male. And that's okay. Another important part of society is to not acknowledge those who cannot accept reality and try to shift society against facts.51.191.137.161talk to me 10:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Well said. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Danniesen ☎  10:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Indeed. This is just the right balance between the points, and is somewhere in the region of where I was trying to get at. I don't think we should exclude the information, but a content warning would certainly be apt. 10:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * A few side points, both of which I've already brought up but that have been lost a bit in the discussion, that may benefit from some consideration:
 * should Rose Noble be listed at the disambiguation page for her deadname?
 * what about including the deadname on other pages where relevant? For example, I have included it at The Star Beast (TODWP episode) in order to convey a point Russell T Davies makes about the meaning behind the deadname. I'd be happy to remove this, but, in that case, I do think that there has to be somewhere else you can go to find out what the name is such that the fact is fully conveyed.
 * Bongo50  ☎  11:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * My opinion is that we have to discuss the name to some extent, we can't just assume it isn't out there. For instance, Rose's behind-the-scenes section should absolutely include Russell's note about her deadname. As per the DAB - I'm indifferent on the topic. OS25🤙☎️ 11:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it should absolutely be included on the podcast page. They openly talk about it there and the meaning behind it. Excluding it there would be a lack of information extending beyond the simple deadname itself. I don’t know about the disambiguation page tho. Danniesen ☎  11:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I think 51.191 goes a bit far here, the first bit of their argument applies to the deadnames of real world persons, which are strictly verboten. So it proves too much. Similarly, I think the content warning + BTS proposal isn't T:BOUND/T:POINT per se, it's a more limited approach to the issue discussed before, but expanding it to something like Dodo's page absolutely is. Dodo was mentioned extensively in that thread. (And in this instance it's very much a T:POINT issue, not T:BOUND. There was just no resolution to that thread. The issue needs to be new arguments moving forward, not explicitly that we're bound by the past.) Najawin ☎  11:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Might I add the point that there is an ongoing culture war against trans people and there have been multiple dogwhistles and red flag popping up in this discussion, which should be taken into account, there are people who will insist the deadname remains purely because they know it will hurt trans people. I would also ask you to consider whether you are prioritising cis peoples feelings over trans peoples, because a lot of the more recent arguments would seem to be that, which does mirror every discussion of trans people seeming to prioritise cis people everywhere right now. User:Hasrock36 13:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Though to clarify not everyone in favour of keeping the deadname will be doing it to spite trans people, just those people absolutely exist. User:Hasrock36 13:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I do have to question the amount of hurt that will be caused by including a fictional character's deadname (which has already been used in a televised episode) in a single sentence in a biography and potentially in The Star Beast's plot summary. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  13:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I do agree that comments made by a few of the IP users are... questionable, to say the least. I'm not sure that they're technically violating any rules, but we should endeavor to be careful on a topic this sensitive. Najawin ☎  13:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Some of what Najawin is saying is incorrect. One can choose to pretend their deadname never existed. But that doesn't erase it from having existed. Nor can they force that choice of pretending it didn't exist onto others. Talking about the deadnames of "real people" is not forbidden. If someone doesn't want their deadname to be talked about directly to them, in their presence, people can respect that decision and choose not to mention it. But as before, one cannot force pthers to not talk about facts in a general, open space. Especially if that space's purpose is to deliver accurate, factual information about a given subject. While it's nice to respect peoples' feelings, and I personally always strive to do so, it does not erase reality, and reality is something we cannot escape from, no matter how hard we may want to sometimes. As I stated above, doing so can potentially promote unhealthy mindsets that will only cause more upset every time the inevitable reality hits. If one is hurt by reality, the answer is not for everyone to ignore reality, one must choose to do that for themselves. How one manages oneself is not for anyone to decide other than that particular individual. I cannot decide how one should feel about deadnaming. However those who choose to be upset by deadnaming can continue to choose not to acknowledge the past and similarly choose not to acknowledge sources of information that may remind them of so, such as a wiki concerning the deadnaming of a fictional character, hence the possibility of providing a warning. And subsequently, they cannot use their feelings as a means to control those around them. Another lesson of life; sometimes reality goes against what we want as individuals. The answer is not to pretend reality does not exist, but to accept reality and build our lives around it.

As for the comments about being wary of integrity of IP-named posts: if someone was attempting to manipulate things to skew in one direction for the sole purposing of trying to hurt those who are sensitive about deadnaming, this is not exclusive to IP-named posts. Anyone has the potential to do this. The key here is to actually read what's being written, and determine if what's been said is true and accurate, impartial to any one side. Simply wanting something, ignoring reality, does not a valid argument make.51.191.137.161talk to me 14:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Nor can they force that choice of pretending it didn't exist onto others. Talking about the deadnames of "real people" is not forbidden.
 * I'm sure we all appreciate how many people are so concerned with this issue, but our policies on this are quite clear. T:ACTOR applies. If your argument entails that we will edit this wiki such that we include deadnames for real world people, your argument must fail. This is just modus tollens. It proves too much. To give these arguments is to violate T:BOUND. Najawin ☎  15:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

OK User talk:51.191.137.161 is just posting common transphobic tropes dressed up in a discussion of deadnames, I would encourage everyone to disregard them. "you can choose to pretend this, but I can choose to ignore it" is straight up transphobic rhetoric. Hasrock36 ☎  15:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * That's not at all what they said. You're literally making up words there. Nobodyvis arguing to add deadnames for real people, the whole point of this discussion is about a fictional character, and I'm uncomfortable with how this discussion is starting to enter into borderline personal attack territory. 185.69.144.63talk to me 15:13, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Najawin has appeared to have missed the point. Apologies for not making it clear. For the sake of clarity, I will state I am not personally attacking anyone. I am only attempting to be a neutral party, speaking only in truths with facts. And Hasrock36, yes, a deadname cannot be a deadname if it didn't exist. If one chooses to pretend it did not exist, that is entirely their choice. This does not make me transphobic. I also do not strive to be transphobic. So thank you for bringing it to my attention; if you believe I am being transphobic, please let me know and I will re-evaluate.51.191.137.161talk to me 15:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Nobodyvis arguing to add deadnames for real people
 * Talking about the deadnames of "real people" is not forbidden. If someone doesn't want their deadname to be talked about directly to them, in their presence, people can respect that decision and choose not to mention it. But as before, one cannot force pthers to not talk about facts in a general, open space. Especially if that space's purpose is to deliver accurate, factual information about a given subject. [Emphasis my own in all cases.]
 * Yes they were. And even if it wasn't their explicit intent, their argument is broad enough that it entails this, which is problematic for the argument, and means the argument can't be made.


 * "All vertebrates that can fly are birds, ravens can fly, therefore ravens are birds." "Bats aren't birds." "Who was talking about bats? We're talking about ravens." - Even if your conclusion is true on the original argument, the fact that you're using a principle that entails falsehood when applied to another case damns your analysis and means it can't be used. You need another argument. I didn't miss the point, I get the point. Y'all are just wrong. Najawin ☎  15:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't really have much else to add beyond reiterating the earlier point made here that the inclusion of the dead name in the episode itself was a choice by a production team that includes trans people as well as an actor who is trans. There's also much more on it that RTD has elaborated on. I do feel it's definitely worthy of note. Honestly, there isn't much more we can do to be sensitive without going into another discussion about content warnings, and then there's the whole argument over what makes a (fictional) deadname more sensitive than other articles that make no effort to embellish facts? 185.69.144.63talk to me 15:34, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Najawin makes an interesting point. Who here is talking about bats? If you'd like to continue discussing this, please tell me which of my statements were wrong.51.191.137.161talk to me 16:34, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Generally we call those sorts of things analogies, they often help to see particular flaws in our reasoning in certain areas. Definitionally they're not actually identical to the underlying discussion - else we'd just be having the original discussion. Once more, the argument you've given in favor of allowing deadnames for fictional characters entails that we can also feature the deadnames for real, actual persons, regardless of whether or not you intend for this. Our policies explicitly forbid this. Hence, your argument must fail to be successful, as it entails something that we know to be false. It's just modus tollens. There's no real way around it. Najawin ☎  16:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * By the way, I've had confirmation from User:Spongebob456 that, as far as Fandom's concerned, it's acceptible to mention the deadname as long as it is kept to the absolute minimum (e.g. once in the given character's bioography). Bongo50   ☎  16:48, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm aware what an analogy is, thanks. I didn't say you could include the deadnames of real people here, I was talking generally. I wasn't aware your 'forbidden' remark was with regard to this wiki's policies. So apologies for the confusion there. If the wiki has already chosen to ignore the deadnames of real people then you're right, there's no way around that. Though that doesn't invalidate all the facts I stated.51.191.137.161talk to me 17:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's the issue. Your argument is too general. It proves too much. If you wish to provide a different argument, one that doesn't entail that we cover deadnames for real life people as well, that might work. But until such an argument is made manifest your approach is just unsuccessful. Najawin ☎  17:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "acceptible as long as it is kept to the absolute minimum" e.g. "one mention". Well does it hurt people or not? All of a sudden we're adding arbitrary measurements because it's a fictional character? And that suddenly makes it "acceptible"? Why only one? Why not a limit of 3? Does the amount of hurt increase with each addition?51.191.137.161talk to me 17:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "Your argument proves too much". Thanks? I can't tell if you're implying this to be a bad thing? You've still yet to explain which part of anything I've written is wrong.51.191.137.161talk to me 17:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I did make a very long post but due to an edit conflict I accidentally deleted it. I will try to rewrite it now.

I am Trans. I am also gender fluid. I am no longer my deadname. But unlike several trans people I know, I once was. I was born under a different name and I was defined as that for a long while, but that is not who I am any more. I do not even see that person as me. I have changed so much. But still I was that deadname. Many Trans people were never their deadname, they never were, they never truly identified as that. They just did not have the words or knowledge to describe it. They have always been their true name but they did not know what that name was. A friend of my Transitioned. She went through with both top and bottom surgery but did not change their name. They still identify as that name. Another uses the name their family gave them and a name of their choice with different people. Not based at all on who they trust but who that person is. They like their mum and brother to call them the name they had at birth, their father and sister to call them their chosen name and some people (like me) want to use both. I myself sometimes change names but it is naver my deadname. I have many names. All of them are me. I just associate them with different genders Iexperience. The way one is Trans is not a universal constant, one trans person can have totally different ways of being trans as well as different experiences from the outside world.

To be Trans is to have to fight for recognition, to constantly fight for people to believe that no you are not that gender you are this gender, or you are more than one gender. In the UK my gender and any gender except for male and female is not recognised by the government. I can not have on my documents where it says gender marked as gender fluid or even a simple Other. On many legal documents is my deadname. I have been deadnamed both very maliciously and accidentally. I have to fight for my right to exist. I constantly have to put in effort for anywhere to recognise me as me. I can not go into male toilets or female toilets as I no longer look like either particularly it is not safe for me to enter them as several times I have and faced abuse and one time the threat of violence (no violence occurred but nonetheless it was scary) I must hunt for a gender neutral toilet which my university does not have. So I am forced to use the disabled toilet, or to go looking for a coffee shop which does not gender it’s loos. If you are cis try to imagine the very simple ability to go to the loo in any building which has a loo but to not be able to without the consent looming threat of abuse. Not to mention conversion therapy for Trans people is still legal in the UK. Institutalised torture is legal for trans people to suffer according to the goverment. Hardly seems fair does it? The amount of legal rings one has to jump through to get recognised is stupid. Rose being deadnamed I feel is important to her arc. It shows her going through all the troubles and tribulations every trans person goes through and it made me feel closer to her. She suffers as I have suffered. And then at the end when she saves the world ,well I like that a lot. It made me feel like I could make positive change and not constantly have to hide myself from those who may harm me. I think on pages for trans people it should not be “[name] was born under the name [Deadname]” but “[name] was often dad named with the name [deadname]” but this should only be because these are not real people but fictional characters. This is also my personal preference and may not reflect the preferences of others. A real world person should never ever be referred to by their deadname unless they have said it is fine for them to be and if they add boundaries into that they should also be respected. I know I would be heartbroken if let’s say I got a work published in a Cwej or Faction Paradox Anthology and someone stuck my dead name on this wiki. I would be mortified. I am Anastasia, I am no longer the person I was. I would like to end on this note. Trans people know more about being trans than cis people. They understand the experiences that come from it. Do not presume to know, And no Trans experience is the same as another all experience it differently. Remember that. Anastasia Cousins ☎  17:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

In regard to Bongo50's message regarding it being mentioned once, that's a fair enough compromise to me. My main argument was that the behind the scenes context of the deadname is worthy of note, as to why RTD chose that name, as to its important context reflecting the experience of trans people, the contributions trans people made to the production of this episode, etc. My concern is that you don't have to mention it to note that, but it is quite tricky to explain the context without the name itself. 185.69.144.63talk to me 17:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It's rather ironic that you wrote all of this beginning with "I'm Trans" as if that matters? Are you implying that because you are trans you automatically understand it better than me? That your arguments are more valid? Are you implying that because you are trans that I must not be trans and would not understand? Thankfully you did say "If you are cis" lol. The world does not revolve around trans people, let alone you. It does not revolve around me either. To be trans does not intrinsically mean to have to fight for recognition. Many, many people fight to be recognised no matter who they are or who they identify as. There is a lot wrong here in what you've written, but perhaps this should be continued elsewhere... For now at least, I am genuinely sorry for the experience you've had. It must have been quite traumatic. However a name only holds as much meaning as you choose to give it. Being referred by your deadname may be a reminder of hard times, but it does not change who you are. You have always been you, the same throughout, regardless of name. You may not have liked parts of who you were in the past, but those parts shaped you into who you are now. To reject them and pretend they don't exist would be ignoring your own growth as a person. As for trans people understanding more about being trans than cis, this is also incorrect. Being trans or cis does not inherently give you a better understanding of anything, and it genuinely scares me if you truly believe that. If you really don't like your deadname, get it legally changed. Do everything you can to have it stricken from as many records as possible. But understand that there is a procedure to all these things, and for good reason. And if you ever did something worth noting onto a wiki that was impacted by your time as another gender, or impacted by your transitioning, then yes, it should be noted. I would especially agree with this if it could potentially serve as inspiration to others out there who were in a similar position to you.51.191.137.161talk to me 18:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Please can everyone remember that new messages always go at the bottom of the page. Otherwise, it is very easy for people to miss them. If you'd like to respond to a specific previous message, please quote it in your message. Bongo50   ☎  18:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Anonymous user 51 nowhere did I imply you are cis I was not talking about you specifically or anyone specifically I was asked to voice my opinion on the matter by Najawin and I did I read the discussion and addressed all point I found important. I did not speak about anyone in particular because it is about the discussion in general. But I think that I know more about my gender and how I like to have it expressed that you. Or anyone else. I am myself. Thus is know myself better than anyone (possible partial exclusions for my Partner and my parents). I believe that a Trans person should be able to decide what is and what is not offensive to them and cis (or other Trans people) people should not be able to say that it is not offensive. You (as in the generic non specific concept of a single person who is not me) correct your behaviour so as to not offend the person. And no the world does not revolve around trans people. In fact it seem to revolve around rich whit e heterosexual cis men who seem to be consistently the most powerful people in the world. And yes I do need to fight for Legal recognition. Oh I could change my name but that costs money and I have to jump through lost legal rings. But I can not legally change my gender to the one I identify as. A cis person is legally recognised as their gender, I and many trans people am not. Yes other people have to fight for their rights but that is not what this forum is about, it is about Trans people. And as it is about Trans people I think Trans people should for once be able to determine what they do and do not find offensive. If you disagree feel free to voice your opinion.
 * On a side not if any website did use my deadname with out first consulting me I would happily take them to court. Which is at least one right I do have. All Real World people have the right to be called what they what everywhere. Weather they are Cis, Trans or identify as any other. signed Anastasia Anastasia Cousins ☎  20:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I think you made excellent points Anastasia. And I agree, let's not point fingers. This should not turn into personal attacks. User 51.191.137.161 also made a few good points. Let’s leave it at that. Danniesen ☎  20:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * By all means choose to take offense to facts and reality, just be prepared to face the consequences. As I explained earlier, people will not discard reality to save your feelings.51.191.137.161talk to me 21:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think this sentiment is at all relevant to the scope of this discussion, especially not these foreboding consequences. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  21:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The primary goal of this wiki - and indeed of most wikis - is to record information about a fictional universe. It’s important to be accommodating, but ultimately that mission is at the core of what a wiki is.


 * There’s discussions to be had about how that information is presented, and it would be inappropriate to add deadnames of actual, real-life trans people (I don’t know why anyone thought it was appropriate to toss that into the conversation). But demanding that pieces of info from the DWU are straight-up omitted is a tall ask. It is completely valid for that piece of information to be added, just like any other piece of information from an episode of Doctor Who. And again, as others have said, it wouldn’t be the wiki taking the position that it is Rose's true name, it’s just simply reporting that that the name once existed, and what that name was.


 * Hasrock36’s statement that the wiki could "never again in good faith hold any pride event and claim to support the LGBTQ+ community" is rather extreme, I’m not sure why they think they speak for the entire LGBTQ+ community. TheGreatGabester ☎  21:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * No, I don't believe 51.191 made some good points. They're still constitutionally incapable of understanding modus tollens. Why this is, I'm sure I couldn't say. But I reiterate my point that if an argument entails false things the argument must fail. See the bats are not birds analogy. 51.191 would insist that their argument proving ravens are birds still holds, even though it's been pointed out that bats are not birds. Perhaps they're correct. But their argument cannot get us there. It's incapable of doing so. It must be abandoned. To continue to prop it up is... bizarre.


 * And, yes, of course it matters what trans people think, and while trans people may not inherently understand something better than cis people - there's no metaphysical, ontological facts stopping cis people from understanding these things - due to how the world happens to be trans people may be better situated to understand certain facts. (See Bright for more.) It's not the case that taking their experiences seriously means we must grant deference to them on these issues, however. (This becomes obvious when realize that two individuals might have different lived experiences. Or on a broader scale different marginalized groups might claim very distinct things about their interactions. Deference leads to epistemic nihilism. See, oh god, Táíwò for more.) We don't need to defer, but we do need to listen openly. Unless, of course, the closing admin decides to defer. Then we defer. :P Najawin ☎  21:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * A good friend of mine is an English teacher and always says that a good grasp of the English language (and communication in general) isn't in using big words that you've learnt but by adapting to your audience in different situations and making sure that your getting your point across without having to Google Latin terms or visit external blogs to understand the point being made. This is relevant because your message, Najawin, is almost impenetrable.
 * What I could understand, I agreed with. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  21:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I am going to say that I will agree with Najawin on most point they just made. I do not want to defer but I still hold that an effected group should have a significant say in how they will be effected. And yes whilst I am sure a cis person can understand what Trans perso goes through I find from personal experiences that they struggle to understand the battles a Trans person has to fight in order to be recognised. And the Cis people who do understand are usually those who have faced similar struggles, however I have drifted from my point. Which is basically Najawin is mostly right in my opinion. (Although I do feel that their is a bit of a fallacy fallacy going on but then I could be wrong and I always struggled with a fallacy fallacy as a concept (and for that matter some fallacies) so hey what do I know.)
 * however I do say that Trans voices should be heard and listened to. If someone says something will negatively affect them that should be take as the truth. I feel that when one considers authorial intent we should at least reference the name on the Page (not sure where but one reference in the main body and/or one in the BTS section feels fair.) as it to me helped me sympathise with the character as they suffer they way I do but as I have said, no Trans Person experiences being Trans the same way. Honestly I would like to hear some more opinions from other trans people. We have had trans people say they don’t want it because of the way it reminds them of the past I have said I don’t mind it as long as it is only once or twice with and explicitly linked to Deadnameing (which should always be treated as a negative as with in Doctor it is always treated as a negative). And I Am sure that other trans people will have other veins on the subject.
 * finally as others have said deadnameing real people should not be part of this discussion and even then it would be a breach of fandom policy so their is no point debating real life deadnaming (and for once I would like to thank fandom for this fact as I never have to fear myself being deadnamed should I get a short story published in one obscure anthology.) Anastasia Cousins ☎  21:59, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree with this, but are we able to do this without violating No Real World? Has the word "deadname" been used in the Doctor Who universe and are we allowed to use it if it hasn't been? Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  22:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jack regarding Najawin. Making use of long-winded analogies isn’t particularly helpful. It's always best to be clear and concise as possible. TheGreatGabester ☎  22:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Najawin ☎  22:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) While it's oft repeated that one should make their language as plain as possible, this is something that's simply not true for many fields - doing so loses precision. In particular, modus tollens is the name of a principle in formal logic. It would be wholly improper for me not to use it in order to avoid latin.
 * 2) The articles I linked are not necessary for the point being made, they're in parentheticals! They're for further reading for those interested. Hence "See [...] for more."
 * 3) There's no fallacy fallacy present, though it's always good to check. Fallacy fallacy says "Your argument was fallacious, therefore your conclusion is wrong". I'm explicitly not saying this. I'm accepting that the conclusion may be correct, but the argument cannot get us there.
 * 4) The analogy in question was brought up after I corrected 51.191 twice, twice saying that their argument was overly broad and proved two much and once explicitly naming modus tollens. Indeed, the analogy was an attempt to approach the subject from another direction, since 51.191 seemed disinclined to actually engage with these comments.


 * It's important to be precise, but by indulging in obscurant terminology and confusing analogies, you are forgetting to be clear and concise, which is just as important. TheGreatGabester ☎  23:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * You're right, I apologize, when I said "metaphysical, ontological" to better emphasize my point I was not the soul of concision, only one of those was needed. However, "epistemic nihilism" was both the most precise way to phrase that point, and the most concise, if perhaps ultimately not the most low level. "Modus tollens" is the most precise, most concise, and the most low level, as it's the name of the principle. And analogies confusing people is not an inherent property of the analogy. It's highly contextual. I honestly am still baffled that it's causing confusion. Najawin ☎  23:29, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Because these aren't terms that are part of your average person's daily vocabulary. But we're straying from the point a bit. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  23:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * In that particular statement I meant the analogy. I'm not so optimistic to think that people have retained all information learned from highschool, or that every highschool teaches the same thing. It's the analogy that I'm baffled by people finding confusing. Najawin ☎  23:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I have just watched Council of Geeks' review of the episode on YouTube and they pointed out something I think is relevant: We don't know if Rose considers that name to be her "deadname". It might just be her birth name. So it would help to know how the character feels about that name but as of now, we don't. BastianBalthazarBux ☎  00:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * We do know, pretty well, that it is a name that other kids use to bully her. If deadname has been defined in-universe, which I think it has by other stories, then we can pretty thoroughly say that this fits the definition of a birth name which is not used by the person in question, wherein the use of the name signifies bullying. OS25🤙☎️ 01:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think that really proves anything. That was clearly being used in the context of bullying within the episode. She may be upset with people intentionally using it against her as a slight, but not against people knowing it as a neutral trivia fact. 2.57.169.120talk to me 02:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Admin note: I have just read through this very long post, and for the most part, while the issue is very difficult, most posters have done a good job of avoiding personal attacks. That is why I need to address User:Hasrock36, who has made a blanket attack, accusing users with a certain viewpoint of being transphobic. User:Hasrock36, please make sure to carefully read Tardis:No personal attacks, especially focusing on the idea of "Assume good faith." Shambala108 ☎  02:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Moving on. I've asked some trans people I know who aren't massive Who fans, so just giving them the rough outline, and their takes were largely remove entirely or use the spoiler template, so that's how it's playing externally. (Though the people who are pro removal tend to understand that we might need to keep the info b/c we're a wiki, and accept the spoiler template or placing it in the trivia section as a compromise.) Najawin ☎  06:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I feel like people who aren't massive Who fans would have very little motivation to prioritize the integrity of this wiki. 2.57.169.121talk to me 07:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, no. Hence, "so that's how it's playing externally". (We want a page break guys?) Najawin ☎  07:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * That's how it's playing externally... within the incredibly specific demographic of "trans people who you personally happen to know and who cared enough to comment." We'd get a better sample of how things are playing externally asking people off the street. 2.57.169.121talk to me 08:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Trans people are the correct demographic to ask, though, it doesn't particularly matter what other people think of it, as they are not affected by the issue. That is not to say that other people's views are worthless, as such, but trans people's views on the matter are perhaps the most relevant to the issue. Trans people whom Najawin personally happens to know are merely a few people in that wider demographic, and I assume Najawin knows a variety of such people with a variety of views and is slightly generalising. 08:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Users of this wiki are more affected by this decision than trans people who will never visit the page, and who wouldn't recognize the name "Rose Noble" if someone mentioned it to them. I asked two of my trans friends what they think- one who watches Doctor Who, and one who doesn't. The Doctor Who fan agreed with me, and the non-Doctor Who fan said "delete the whole wiki." For what it's worth, I think people tend to conglomerate around similar minds. A lot of people would not get much diversity of thought polling just their own friend groups about most topics. 2.57.169.121talk to me 08:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Indeed, but the more people you ask, the more accurate your results will be. This is the basis of data collection. (Also note that forum threads are not as simple as counting how many individuals support one opinion or the other, many people chiming in on something just saying "I agree with this" without elaborating is functionally useless in a forum thread, but in this case it is useful to get as many trans people's opinions as possible as they are the affected party. I disagree that the users of the wiki will be more affected, as it is only a very small piece of trivia, and the only reason that I can think of that one would want to look it up would be to go on social media and call Rose only by her deadname, because, sadly, some people are a little mean like that. Of course, there may be other reasons. Also, please do note that I am not accusing you in particular of wanting to do this, or indeed anybody, but I wanted to note that this is a thing that people might theoretically want to do, and I can, at this point in time, think of no more innocent explanation. Sorry, that was a long bracket that was slightly tangential to the overall conversation, I'll stop now.) 09:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think asking your friends will necessarily give you a more accurate result. I believe if you ask multiple members of the same friend group the same question, you're likely to hear the same basic answer repeated. If we want to expand our sample size it'd be better to do a random poll, although I admit those are easily brigaded. Thank you for clarifying, I don't feel targeted. I understand this is a sensitive issue, but I hope people realize those of us arguing for keeping the name are not (unilaterally) coming from a place of hate. I think most of the concerns of bad-faith uses of the name are, unfortunately, beyond the scope of this wiki to solve. The information was included in the episode, and we can't change that. People looking to use it maliciously would not likely be stopped just because they can't find the info here. Alternatively, I believe trans fans in the future who may be looking back at this someday, the way many young fans of today might reference articles from the classic series, deserve to have as complete a picture as possible of this character. 2.57.169.119talk to me 09:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh, I do think we should have it on the page somewhere, hence my earlier suggestions, just that we should be incredibly, incredibly careful with how we present it. My suggestion to not have it at all was provoked by some comments upthread that dismissed the necessity of care when handling these things. With the malicious users issue, it is less the existence of the deadname which I take issue with, but the fact that it will be so readily available. This page will likely be in the top three results on Google search, the deadname would be right there in plain sight slap-bang in the middle of the article, and that is what worries me.


 * Also note that Forum:Category:Non-heterosexual real world people may be of relevance here. 10:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Just a quick note about this comment: "Trans people are the correct demographic to ask, though, it doesn't particularly matter what other people think of it, as they are not affected by the issue." This is very much not the standard on this wiki. We are a wiki, part of FANDOM, and everyone who wants to contribute (and follow our policies) has the right to contribute and the right to expect their contribution to be valued the same as any other. Let's not give new users the false impression that some comments matter more than others. Shambala108 ☎  15:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)