Forum:Temporary forums/Inclusion debates speedround

Introduction
As our website is currently set up, T:TF allows for six temporary forum posts at any given time. Posts last three weeks typically, meaning that it's been a priority to put site-changing posts ahead of anything more minor. Because of this, there are several stories which are controversially still invalid, yet remain too obscure and minor to ever have a full slot at T:TF.

My basic idea is that we dedicate one forum post to discussing several of these smaller stories, to get them out of the way. My goal here is to ultimately cover ten topics in this post.

This OP is a work-in-progress, so if you would like anything added please leave a message on my talk page.

Friend from the Future
TV: Friend from the Future is a 2016 mini-episode which directly ties in to TV: The Pilot. It introduces two important characters: Bill Potts and (retroactively) Heather.

Ages ago, in our Thread:###### system, we had a short debate about this which ended with the story being called NOT-VALID for multiple reasons. As the Thread system has never been archived in any way, I'll now recap the issues I recall either being discussed, or being the deciding factors:

Now, Friend from the Future obviously is a great contender for being revisited, simply because the recently implemented Rule 4 by proxy makes the first thing a complete non-issue.
 * 1) When Steven Moffat first wrote Friend from the Future, he presumed the episode was going to be a promotional mini-episode that did not actually tie-into the plot of series 10. He changed his mind later, and wrote The Pilot to explicitly explain where this story takes place. Because we only recently codified "Rule 4 By Proxy", this meant the story did not pass Rule 4 of T:VS in 2017, as only intent at release mattered then.
 * 2) Friend from the Future could be considered an advertisement, as it was meant to promote series 10.
 * 3) Friend from the Future is a deleted scene, as the entire script for the short was copied directly into The Pilot's script, then deleted for time.

I would like to also say that I disagree with the final two points. Is The Night of the Doctor an advertisement? What about the Tardisode mini-series? Both mainly were created to advertise the TV show, why not?

And to discuss that final point, Friend from the Future can not be a deleted scene in The Pilot because it never was going to BE in The Pilot. The script was going to be entirely copied, but was then only partially mirrored. There was never going to be a single frame from FrtF in The Pilot, because it was a separate production.

The best source on this topic is, of course, Steven Moffat. Here is his entire quote about the episode:

"I wasn’t sure at all [if Friend was going to fit]. Because I’m such a Doctor Who fan and I need everything to fit in continuity and I stay awake at night trying to figure out UNIT dating - that’s an obscure one and I have fixed it – I knew it had to be right at the beginning because of the way she was talking and then we edited the whole [scripted] scene in, and it didn’t work because suddenly you were being introduced to her again. You knew she was like that, the whole point of the scene… so we just had the very beginning of it so you know where it fits and for die hard, slightly strange obsessives, and let’s be honest, there’s at least 7 or 8 of them in the audience of Doctor Who, like myself; that’s where it fits. You can all sleep at night now."

- Steven Moffat, The Fan Show, Apr 15, 2017

I don't think we can get more direct than that with authorial intent. "That's where it fits. You can all sleep at night now." This is a very obvious example of a story that would be valid through Rule 4 by Proxy. OS25🤙☎️ 22:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Friend from the Future discussion
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AAAGH!
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Crossover Shenanigans
So in the early days of the Wiki, it was generally thought that "crossovers", especially thoughts played for even the slightest laugh, failed rule 4 by default. Why was that?

Well, the logic was that the Doctor Who universe was clearly defined, being the universe of the Doctor Who TV show. If the Doctor appeared on, say, EastEnders, he categorically was not appearing in his universe. Today, we have changed a lot as a website. Our pages on TV Century 21 stories make it explicit that Thunderbirds and the Daleks comics consistently were said to take place in the same world. We have several webcasts featuring LEGO characters that we consider valid. And even TV: Dimensions in Time is valid as of today. Not to mention Assimilation² and Comic Relief Comic.

So, I wanted to pop-back over to a few stories that featured crossover elements with Doctor Who, and deserve a second glance.

Let's start off with One Born Every Minute. This one is unique as the Doctor isn't just in it, he's the reason it makes sense. In the story, we are presented what resembles One Born Every Minute, an observational documentary series about working in a nursery. A couple is seen entering the hospital, as they are expecting a baby. However, the hospital is seen to be staffed with characters from Call the Midwife, a 1950's drama series also starring nurses.

I have not seen either of these shows. But the joke is basically "1950s group of funny people work in a modern hospital." As things keep getting worse, the Doctor arrives in the TARDIS and exclaims that the couple's baby will grow to be evil. He will grow to be... Jedward! The cast of Call the Midwife beg the Doctor to take them back to 1958.

So this one's interesting, because if you look at the plot slanted, it's implied that the reason the story is happening because of the Doctor's involvement. It's possible to interpret that the Eleventh Doctor took all these 1950s nurses to the future, thus explaining the plot. Either way, I'd say this one is very in-character, and does not at all imply it's "not set in the Doctor's universe."

Next, let's pop over to Looking for Pudsey. This was a Children in Need mini-sode that featured Eddie Redmayne looking for, get this, Pudsey. Eddie is dressed as his Harry Potter character Newt "Can You Tell They Designed This Role For Matt Smith" Salamander or whatever. So he's out-of-character.

The Doctor, meanwhile, is in-character. Full-force. Twelfth Doctor, in the segment. In fact, a promotional photo taken during this episode has become extremely over-used to represent the character. Peter Capaldi was basically so in-character that a photo of him in this episode has been widely mistaken as a photo of him in ''The Return of Doctor Mysterio.

Also, this isn't really a crossover for the most part. There are 22 actors in this segment, and 20 play themselves. Other than the Doctor, Jenny Agutter plays Sister Julienne, a character who was also in the former skit. Admitting that Call the Midwife seems to be set in the Doctor Who Universe is the biggest fear of this website.

So, yeah, this is perhaps the most in-character appearance of the Doctor outside of the TV show.

So the short of this segment is, alongside validating these two mini-episodes, do you support codifying in T:VS that no story should ever be invalidated just for being a crossover. Thanks. OS25🤙☎️ 05:13, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Crossover discussions
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Dermot and the Doctor
So this is a continuation of the previous point, as now we look at TV: Dermot and the Doctor. This is another crossover, specifically as the Doctor arrives once again at London's EastEnd and notes that he's been there before - a pretty solid Moffat reference to Dimensions in Time.

So, the history of this one dates back to 2011, shortly after this aired, in the story's Talk: page followed by Forum:National Television Awards Sketch 2011: Canon?. Now, I'll just tell you this bias about me out front and center. Whenever an old debate like this dates back to a discussion about canon, I immediately think it deserves another debate. Immediately. Is Dermot and the Doctor canon? Maybe not, but that's not our job and hasn't been in a long time.

So to recap the discussion of why editors in 2011 decided that Dermot and the Doctor wasn't canon, is that on the story's talk page, User:CzechOut asked if anyone had a good reason to call it non-canon, as the only thing he could think of is Dot Cotton knowing who the Doctor is, when she's fictional elsewhere.

Then in the Forum, someone ads that this story should be "un-canon" by proxy, as it's similar to Dimensions in Time. User:Skittles the hog then agrees. In 2020, we officially made it our policy that making something "Un-canon by proxy" isn't a thing on our website, validating several stories which had never done anything wrong.

Next, in the era of the Thread:###### system, User:Epsilon the Eternal made a post asking why the story was still invalid. This has since been lost, but the general belief is that Czech made a new response stating that because the segment featured real-world actors and was a skit at a real-world awards show, it isn't fiction.

I find this especially curious. In the skit, the Doctor takes Dermot to the BBC in the distant, DISTANT future, where Dermot is shocked to see that Bruce Forsyth is still alive and still works at the BBC.

So... Do we now have to say that it's a real-world fact that Bruce Forsyth is still alive? This piece of non-fiction says that he never died. I guess he's still around.

In short, there are few stories on this website invalidated for less solid reasons. The story was invalidated for featuring fictional versions of real-world actors, for being a crossover with EastEnders, for being in-line with the continuity of Dimensions in Time, for being allegedly un-canon, and for being a fictional segment presented inside of non-fiction. None of these five things would be a solid reason to invalidate this story if it were released today.

And if four people agree with me, then we officially have had more consensus for this story than against it. OS25🤙☎️ 05:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Dermot and the Doctor discussion
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TARDIS Yule Logs
While I worked on this post, it occurred to me that so many of these topics originate from the Tenth and Eleventh Doctor's eras, and that it would be a good idea to also cover a few topics that really found their footing in the Capaldi and Jodie Whittaker eras.

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Untitled (Chute!)?
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Doctor Who at the Proms
Okay, so this one is a natural consequence of our recently codified Rule 4 By Proxy. We've recently been trying to find the boundaries of this, but the basic idea is that Rule 4 by Proxy allows us to clarify if stories with dubious and contentious Rule 4ness actually do take place in the Doctor Who Universe. For instance, Scream of the Shalka was recently declared valid (partially due to passing Rule 4 itself, according to new context) and also partially due to the many stories which reference it as a potential past or future for the Doctor and the Master.

Anyhoo, so the boundary now lies in how obscure a story or piece of continuity has to be for Rule 4 By Proxy, which was really a heated topic when it came to the PRIME Computer adverts being directly referenced in PROSE: Christmas on a Rational Planet. Well, get ready, because I'm about to discuss a piece of continuity even more contentious and minor.

In 2013, a lot of "mini-sode" cameo appearances were recorded featuring the Eleventh Doctor and Clara Oswald, most set after The Name of the Doctor and before The Day of the Doctor. Many of these segments were featured as framing devices in very real-world shows and documentaries. Examples are BAFTA in the TARDIS, A Night with the Stars, and the start and end of The Ultimate Guide, TV: The History of the Doctor. Some of these are considered valid, but the more meta you get the less likely you are to be valid on this site.

One thing done in 2013 that was common by then but is obscure these days was the third (or fourth, or fifth) Doctor Who at the Proms presentation. Doctor Who at the Proms, for newer fans, was a celebration of the music of the show and specifically Murray Gold. The show would feature a live performance of orchestral tracks from the series, typically with several hosts. Some hosts would be from the real world, and some would be characters from within the DWU.

So, for instance, Russell T Davies would host part of the show. Then he would leave, the lights would go down low, and Davros would appear. When this would happen, it typically was taken very seriously and was not a parody of any kind.

We historically have not covered the Proms due to the real-world and in-universe parts being so heavily mixed, unless we can split segments off into "mini-episodes" such was the case with TV: Music of the Spheres (TV story) (an internet-exclusive edit removed the PROMS footage, and the music incidentally, and this is the version we cover on the page, justifying that it was an entirely different release... Why we don't call the page WC: Music of the Spheres (webcast) I have no idea...) A special part of the Proms in 2013 featured Clara and the Doctor trying to use a Hyperscape Body Swap Ticket to sneak their way into the Proms. They teleport into the event, host it for a bit, joke that the teleportation singed the Doctor's hair short, then head back to the TARDIS.

Why is this important? Well, in 2014's Dark Water, in a frantic mental health crisis, Clara lays out post-it notes of everything that's happened to her since she's met the Doctor. Among these notes, quite clearly, is the Hyperscape Body Swap Ticket, which Clara still has. This is a reference to the 2013 Proms and the 2013 Proms alone.

So, obviously this is contentious, especially as we've had a few voice their concerns that "easter eggs" should not be considered continuity. But my thing is... This was written by Steven Moffat. Steven "Here's where it fits, you can sleep at night" Moffat.

I find it hard to believe that this is anything less than confirmation that the 11 and Clara sequence in the 2013 Proms was set inside the Doctor Who Universe and is something that Clara actively remembers happening. And because of that, I think this is a clear example of Rule 4 By Proxy highlighting something we're doing wrong on the wiki.

So basically now, we have three options before us:


 * 1) Ignore this, say it's too obscure or difficult, get real jobs.
 * 2) Validate the entirety of the BROADCAST EDIT of the 2013 Proms, including the "real world" sections, as some sort of meta-fiction (really too much of a hassle, and arguably a violation of Rule 1, only fiction counts)
 * 3) Split this segment of the 2013 Proms into its own subpage, likely Untitled (DWatP2013 TV story) or whatever specific title we can find for this skit (TV story).

I think the third option makes the most sense. But if this is the case... Would it not make the MOST sense to just do this for all the in-universe parts of the 2013 Proms? And once we've accepted that... Why not all three of the Proms?

Basically, the argument would be that Dark Water AND Music of the Spheres clearly set the precedent that the "in-universe" sections of the Proms are really set in the Doctor Who Universe, even if they are neighbors with a segment presented by Billie Piper or Steven Moffat. So, for these three televised specials, the idea would be to split the in-universe segments of each broadcast into their own page, to be covered as valid stories, while the rest of the presentations are covered as "real-world historical music presentations" etc etc.

Basically, we would look at the three broadcast Proms specials as being like a live-action reference book, filled with cheeky in-universe sections. On one page you have REF: Doctor Who: Cybermen, on another we have PROSE: Archive - A History of the Cyber Race.

Many might say, and have said in the past, that "figuring out which parts are in-universe is impossible." But I disagree frankly. These shows are already cut into segments by nature, so we just go through each one specifically. If a segment is hosted by Strax, it's fiction. If a segment is hosted by Noel Clarke and nothing else happens, it's non-fiction. If the Doctor interrupts a segment, it's fiction. Again, it's not different from a reference book that has some parts in the real world, and some parts in the Doctor's.

The idea is basically that we would take any in-universe part of these shows, and split them from the main page, as we would do with any in-universe part of a reference book or documentary. The Davros segment of the 2008 Proms used the title The Daleks & Davros in the progamme, so I made the page TV: The Daleks & Davros for that story. We keep TV: Music of the Spheres where it is, but make it clear that we now consider all sources valid, even the version that aired on TV.

Then we just have to find titles we justify for the in-universe sections of the 2011 and 2013 Proms, especially the two main segments of the Eleventh Doctor hijacking both, and then probably the Strax moments.

Now, in the past the "precedent" has been that it's actually impossible to split these segments from the real-world broadcast. My honest response to that, after years of precedent, is... I don't know why?

I personally just don't see how covering these segments as valid without covering the entire Proms show is any different from, say, validating TV: The History of the Doctor without validating The Ultimate Guide, or validating WC: Risen without validating the season 17 trailer. Or, if you want another example that is very meta, validating 24 Carat without validating the season 24 trailer.

Whatever we end up doing, it's blatantly clearly that we have stories here that do pass Rule 4 by some standard. It's a case where I don't know the solution, so I'd like to hear your thoughts. OS25🤙☎️ 07:50, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Doctor Who at the Proms discussion
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Disney Time
Since we're getting into a meta-contextual segment in a TV special from the real world hosted by fiction characters, let's get into the ORIGINAL meta-contextual segment in a TV special from the real world hosted by fiction characters. TV: Disney Time 1975.

This is one of those examples where not only is the coverage of this story contentious, even having this page as something invalid has been heavily debated since our wiki started. Our original head admin, User:CzechOut, has often argued that the story is not "the Fourth Doctor hosting a TV program" but rather "Tom Baker as the Fourth Doctor hosting a TV program."

I would disagree. I think this is a clear example of the branding that was so common in the Fourth Doctor's era, where he was constantly presented as a real person who interacted with the audience. He wrote Doctor Who Discovers, a book series for his young fans, constantly penned letters introducing the issues of Doctor Who Weekly, and was famous for staring down the lens of the camera and grinning directly to the child watching at home. Disney Time is hosted by the Fourth Doctor, I just won't accept any dispute about it.

The most famous detail about this special is that it ends with a direct lead-in to TV: Terror of the Zygons, as the Doctor gets a message during the show that the Brigadier needs his help. This slightly contradicts the fact that the previous DW story, Revenge of the Cybermen, also ends in this exact same way. Far from a contradiction, one could argue that this actually helps mend the constant expanded universe stories that depict more adventures happening between Revenge and Terror, but that's just speculation of course.

An important detail I insist on pointing out is that this special was recorded on the 3 August 1975. In other words, this was recorded while Tom Baker was in the middle of recording TV: The Android Invasion. By this point in his filming schedule, Baker was wearing a slightly different costume, specifically with a longer jacket that would set a trend for the rest of the classic era.

But despite this, Baker still wore his pre-Zygon costume for this special, so it could properly lead into the serial. When you watch this, you're looking at Baker weeks before he filmed The Brain of Morbius, but he's dressing up for a completely different era jus to match with continuity. I think this itself suggests a level of attention to detail that speaks strongly for the effort.

The point is that this makes all it very explicit that this Disney Time special was intended to be set inside the Doctor Who Universe, as it set up clear (albeit confused) continuity to the next story.

Small snippets of Disney Time have even been released on DVD, which I think implies a further element to this. The BBC apparently had the foresight to guarantee they kept the rights to this broadcast, although obviously some parts they don't have the rights to (the Disney bits).

The full show has never been released again, but it is far from lost. I have a copy myself, so I will tell you there's a minor caveat we do have to discuss here... That being that the Doctor does actually host Disney Time in this special! What I mean is, the Doctor will typically go on a rant about some personal view of his, before transitioning into showing clips and previews of Disney properties.

Now, there's just no way around it. The precedent of The Incomplete Death's Head states that we have to cover the entire contents of a presentation where the linking segments are set inside the DWU. So if the Doctor introduces a 30 second clip of Escape to Witch Mountain, we have to cover that clip as part of Disney Time 1975. However, this would NOT mean that Escape to Witch Mountain becomes a valid source on the wiki! My point is more generally that we would not "edit" the show, we'd cover the entire 40 minutes as it was broadcast.

To understand the scope of this, please read my updated page on the story. Note the indented parts of the plot description, and the long cast list. If we covered this as valid, all of these things would require pages.

In addition to all of these things, I would also like to make two requests about this story that are not important to if it's valid, and indeed should be established regardless.

Firstly, I think the title to this story is wrong. At no point was this ever called "Disney Time 1975," even in official home releases. It was also not the only Disney Time in 1975.

The special was titled Disney Time, and as we do not intend to cover any other episode, Disney Time (TV story) works fine as a pagename.

Secondly, I think we should not limit ourselves to original recordings of this special. If we're attempting to commit to an HQ fidelity, then it's most appropriate to allow higher quality sources just for the Disney clips shown in the special. For instance:

As long as we give strict guidelines on which scenes are appropriate, I think this is the best way to go about covering this special.

So, what does everyone think? OS25🤙☎️ 07:50, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Disney Time Discussion
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Doctor Who and the Fangs of Time
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