Howling:Paraphasing Moffat: Maybe I'll come back to that

Certainly hope this isn't against the rules, but hoping isn't going to stop me.

Is anybody else noticing/highly fed-up with, an apparent trend of Moffat's to just throw crap into the script with no definite intention of following it up?

Season 5 was (IMO) the best season of New Who, and AotD was (IMO) the best episode of New Who... but most of S6 and too much (so far) of S7 just leaves me angry and ashamed.

Doctor Who is not Lost. The mysteries and plot threads were fun, but now we've hit a point where it seems obvious that big plot threads are going to be left permanently hanging. Who piloted the Tardis out-from-under River, to Amy's wedding night? How did the Silence get to Earth, what was their original motivation? What links the Church and the Monks (who live in the 5,000s, right?) to this invasion by the Silence (which may stretch back to prehistory)? How did the Doctor get his sonic back from the Ganger Doctor? Big threads and small threads are being abandoned at such a rate that it's basically front-and-center to myself and all my fellow Who fans in real life.

Some of us are about to stop watching Who altogether... and I've been a fan for some 25 years. We've come to the conclusion that The Moff is peeved off at the audience and punishing us (not going to go into specifics, because it'll start a flame war... let's say, in addition to the popular points of finger-wagging in certain unpopular episodes, certain popular episodes have also rubbed us horribly wrong.) And there are also some just mind-crushingly obvious mistakes, like: if the Angels were repeatedly zapping people back to a time they had already been to when they tried to escape, then how is there any empty space left in the whole of Manhattan? It would be filled with thousands of copies of each person there.)

I'm not going to reply to any specific corrections or theories that were formulated off screen to explain these glaring omissions. I'm just asking: how common/rare is it for a Whovian, these days, to be impatient to the point of quitting their fandom over this? Agonaga ☎  14:37, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Although I'm not anywhere near the point of "quitting [my] fandom", I do agree that the lack of follow-through is annoying.

(By the way, you say you've "been a fan for some 25 years." I've been a fan since An Unearthly Child first aired, so I can almost double that!)

"Who piloted the Tardis out-from-under River...?" is a question of fairly major importance. It's possible that Moffat hasn't forgotten it & will resolve it in conjunction with the Silence & the Question. However, the whole of Series 6 & the first chunk of Series 7 have gone by without any progress on this point. For me, it's the lack of progress, not the lack of resolution, that's the real problem. Had Series 6 given us just one small piece of information that we knew was related to the TARDIS hijacking, it would have been reassurance that the plotline is pending, not abandoned. It's the impression (which I hope is false) of abandonment that's the real problem for me.

The other main annoyance is that the "reboot" of the universe in The Big Bang was touted out of universe by Moffat as being a mechanism for resetting things so that the in-universe everyday world would be more like the real world. People wouldn't regard the existence of aliens as a known fact & would react to things much as real people would. That made sense, as far as it went. It was a drastic change, however, that would be worthwhile only if it allowed good stories that couldn't otherwise be told. So far, we've had no stories (good or bad) that couldn't have been told equally well had the "reboot" never happened. In short, Moffat did a major job of setting the scene, then did nothing at all with the scene he'd set.

There have been episodes that didn't work properly. Duff episodes occur in almost every show. They always have. It's unfortunate but not a disaster unless duff episodes become the norm instead of the exception -- or they coincide with a loss of trust in the showrunners. It's a loss of trust that's happening with Moffat.

It's bearable -- can even be enjoyable -- for the audience not to know where the show's going, as long as the audience has confidence that the showrunners know where it's going. Moffat is causing too many fans to suspect that he doesn't really know. Reassurance on this point is definitely needed. --2.96.16.185talk to me 22:44, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * First, I find it hard to believe that anyone who thinks AotD was best episode of New Who is seriously on the point of quitting. If you could go back in time, would you really skip watching series 7a? If not, why would you skip 7b or 8? For some reason, every fandom drives some perfectly reasonable people to make claims like that, and they're never true. Calm down and get the hyperbole out of the way, and we can talk.


 * I _do_ think Moffat is to blame for a segment of fandom getting angry—not for the shows he's writing, but for the expectations he sets up.


 * Moffat definitely knows where the show is going far more than RTD, Cartmel, Adams, Holmes, Bryant, etc. ever did. The show has always had plotlines that went nowhere—before Moffat, the show left almost everything hanging. The Key to Time, the Doctor rediscovering the Eye of Harmony, Lady Peinforte's big secret, Martha marrying Tom Milligan, … almost nothing ever got appropriate resolution. Under Moffat, it's 50% instead of 10%, which shouldn't be something to complain about.


 * And yet, we do complain. And it's not because we're insane. It's because Moffat really wants us to believe that he's going to pull off what The X-Files, Heroes, Lost, Enterprise, etc. all failed at—all while still being a show that works for casual viewers (which those shows barely even attempted). He can't pull that off; nobody can.


 * I'm not just saying this as an outside observer. TPO3 made me realize that the first post-Big Bang crowd scenes were RTD-homage scenes that obviously could have worked without any of the changes in The Big Bang. I loved the cracks/reboot storyline, and logically there's no reason Moffat's behind-the-scenes comments make it work less. But knowing that I logically shouldn't be angry doesn't help.


 * So, what can I do about it? Honestly, reading people with complaints that are much more stupid than mine is the only thing that's ever helped, in Doctor Who fandom or elsewhere. For example, when I was angry with Stephen Cole about the EDAs, Larry Miles's insane rant made me feel better. I hope that's not the only answer, but it's all I've ever found… --70.36.140.233talk to me 04:53, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

70, to be honest, after DoaS, I did stop watching. I finished the season (Except ATCM) because a friend put it on while I was at his house. I didn't want to watch again until Claire's introduction, expecting that TATM would be little more than a nonsensical attempt to make us weepy.

For me, AotD was the only Who-worthy ep this season. Season 6 had a couple Who-worthy eps as well. My feeling after S6 was the same as after I watched The End of Time -- and the only reason I kept watching then, was because of the change of showrunner. That feeling was, "you guys get one season to unfutz this wreck, or else I'll have to just assume this show is not targeted at me." Season 7 is once again that one season they get, IMO, to unfutz the wreck. My childhood isn't screaming rape, but I only watch one television show, period. I make a special point to see that one show. I consider writing this post to be a better use of my time than television tends to be. I have better things to do with my time than watch bad television.

This isn't a temper-throwing declaration. I'm sad. My love of this show is dying. I didn't want to watch the final 3 episodes of S7b. I had a strong urge to not watch them. I was extremely glad that Amy and Rory were leaving (my previously-favorite companions ever... someone finally replaced Ace, for a moment, until S6 came along) but I didn't care how they left (except that I hoped they'd die so we'd never have them back again... yet another bollocks "death" of a companion).

As to past plot threads, the only ones I really felt were woefully abandoned were the 6th and 7th Doctor's storylines, and for obvious reason. You're right that Moffat's early quality and focus are partly to blame... but only to a point. RTD drove me away completely. Moff drew me back but now it seems only temporarily. He's writing a kids' show. I didn't know Doctor Who was supposed to be watched exclusively  by kids (and people who don't care about extremely important unfinished stories).

I don't have kids. I'm a science fiction fan, and a fan of the Doctor as a character. Many moments in TATM were rewarding as character moments for the Doctor, but if Doctor Who is going to remain a meal of Spaghetti-O's with fake meat, then there are still around 60-70 EDAs I haven't read yet. Agonaga ☎  13:21, October 13, 2012 (UTC)