Talk:Iris Wildthyme

The metafictional thing
She's not always metaficitonal. Certainly she's not in either Excelis Dawns or The Wormery, the two adventures she has in a "proper" Doctor Who adventure. I'll grant she kind of is within her own stories, but not even all of them. She's not aware of her metafictional nature in The Panda Invasion, for instance. We might think that the jokes are metafictional, asthe audience, because the script recalls moments from DW's past, but she herself never comments upon her own nature like that. It's played completely straight, allowing the listener to decide. There's a difference between in-jokes and metafiction. I think the article needs to cite specific instances, and to mention the fact that there are a number of appearances which do not portray her as actively aware of the similarities between her adventures and those of the Doctor.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 02:58, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * In terms of the edits to be made to the page, I think whatever wording CzechOut had a problem with, over ten years ago, has probably been lost to the natural evolution of a Wiki page over this long a period of time. But for the record, as a point of fact, Excelis Dawns and The Wormery are not "the only two adventures she has in a 'proper' Doctor Who adventure" — there are at the very least The Scarlet Empress and The Blue Angel to add to that list, and in The Scarlet Empress, Iris and the Doctor discuss at length how their adventures seem like incompatible, muddled accounts of identical events. Mind you, it's not quite framed in the same meta way as in other stories (there is no suggestion that Iris is aware of the TV series Doctor Who or of being a fictional character; it works quite differently), but it's still very much metafiction. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  23:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Out Of Order?
She meets The Doctor out of order. Just like River Song.
 * Yes, and? What's your point? She and River aren't the only people to have done so. It means very little. And if that's what you're getting at, those are unbelievably flimsy grounds to suggest that she and River are one and the same… though in fairness, "River Song" doesn't feel too implausible as one of Iris's potential shifting pasts that might get mentioned someday. (Might is however the operative word. The whole thing remains tinfoiled speculation.) --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  23:20, January 28, 2019 (UTC)

Companion Sexuality
It seems odd to me that Iris's companions have random notes of their sexuality, which is something that plays very little in importance to the story. such as "Traffic warden, (a confirmed lesbian)"

and

"Tom (who was gay)"

It seems incredibly odd and out of place for this wiki, considering there is a whole page of other information available for Jenny and Tom. Surely that information of their adventures is more important than something so trivial? specially when accounting for the fact this isnt done for Oliver Harper on the First Doctor's page. Perhaps removing of these rather out of place notes and fleshing out the section in general is in order?

Route22
Does anything in Buyer's Remorse really say she's Route22? Especially considering she's not owned by the author or the BBC, and the various bidders including Route22 are only identified by their silhouette. -- Tybort (talk page) 22:13, April 20, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd say it's clearer than all those times when Virgin used/referenced Daleks without a license to use them. The name "Route22" is derived from Iris' routemaster that says its heading to 22 Putney Common. Route22's silhouette is that of "a woman in an extraordinarily large hat". She has Iris' speech patterns. Route22 quickly leaves the auction upon learning that the TARDIS being sold is the Doctor's TARDIS, something that would make sense for Iris to do. CoT     ?  22:37, April 20, 2017 (UTC)

New Infobox image
Going through the Iris Wildthyme covers, I came across a image which I believe is better suited to the infobox than the current one. Not only Iris is looking left instead of front. but also it doesn't have "unnatural lighting": that is, there isn't an orange filter over it. For further discussion, I'll place them both under a gallery. OncomingStorm12th ☎  18:03, September 1, 2018 (UTC)


 * Decided to give the illustration a go. If anybody has any objections, feel free to revert my edit. Epsilon the Eternal ☎  03:07, September 4, 2020 (UTC)

Does Lillith not count as an incarnation?
According to the current biography there is an apparent contradiction to the numbering of the Brenda Soobie incarnation, here is the quote;

"She was either the second (PROSE: The Golden Hendecahedron) or the third Iris. (PROSE: The Blue Angel)"

However, in The Golden Hendecahedron Brenda Soobie is never stated to be the second incarnation of Iris. In fact she is third from last that we see (Lillith / Edith Sitwell are seen after her).

Potentially the person who added this information doesn't believe that Lillith counts as an incarnation of Iris - but, is this just speculation or are we ever told that she doesn't. RadMatter ☎  23:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * It is my layperson's understanding that "Lilith" is the child/teenaged version of the Edith Sithwell Iris (who is universally acknowledged as the First Iris, and, accordingly, free-associated from the starting point of a genderbent version of the First Doctor). "Lilith" is to Sithwell!Iris as "Theta Sigma" is to… well, whichever Doctor was actually the first (potentially the Barry Doctor, but let's say Hartnell for brevity's sake). Certainly a different version of the character, but not a different regeneration at all.


 * However, User:Epsilon the Eternal is the Wiki's most active expert on Magrsian lore these days, and may be able to shed more light on the subject. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  23:09, 18 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the shout-out, Scrooge!


 * Unfortunately, this article is a bit of mess. I'm currently trying to improve the sections when I read the story that's being cited, but there is a lot I haven't gotten around to reading yet. (For instance, check out my sandbox which focuses on a major rewrite of Panda - it's nowhere near complete, but it's a good start.)
 * There is undeniably a lot of plainly inaccurate information on this page - such as the "lesbian novelist" incarnation of Iris that first appeared in the Phoenix Court quadrology wasn't even recognised by this Wiki as being the same character as Iris (as introduced in Old Flames), until Hospitality was rightfully revalidated.
 * In short, here's my answer: I'm personally unsure if Lillith is a separate incarnation. If you have information to show that Lillith is a separate incarnation, and said information comes from a valid source, feel free to rectify this article. Epsilon  📯 📂 23:20, 18 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Also, have you read Wildthyme Beyond!? I've a feeling that that story will provide a lot of information about Lillith. Epsilon  📯 📂 23:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm cautious about adding information to an already problematic page, but in The Golden Hendecahedron it is made pretty clear (at least the way I have read it) that Lillith is a separate incarnation to the Edith Sitwell incarnation rather than a younger version. When the other Irises, such as the Jane Fonda version, grow younger it is stated. However, when the Lillith incarnation appears we are told;


 * "The elderly Iris was gone."


 * Both Panda and the Carol Channing version greet Lillith as a new incarnation which had just appeared, rather than a younger version of the Edith Sitwell one - who had been there for some time (the Carol Channing version even cries upon seeing her). And, on the cover of Fifteen these incarnations are separate. RadMatter ☎  23:37, 18 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Might I suggest we collaborate on a rewrite of Iris' character? As I feel that Iris might need to be reworked from the ground up, not unlike my Panda sandbox. I have User:Epsilon the Eternal/Sandbox Three for the "Katy Manning" Iris, so how about User:Epsilon the Eternal/Sandbox Eleven for the Lillith incarnation? Epsilon  📯 📂 23:44, 18 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I have my own personal Iris Wildthyme sandbox for stories that I have read, which I will keep working on at my pace, but we could definitely begin combining our joint knowledge onto a single sandbox.


 * Also, I have not read Wildthyme Beyond! yet - but plan to over the festive period. I am also looking forward to getting hold of Old Flames and Hospitality in the new year. But...


 * I have always thought that the Iris in 'Old Flames' was the Beryl Reid incarnation (which is currently stated on the page) rather than the lesbian novelist incarnation as seen in Phoenix Court / Hospitality? From my understanding the lesbian novelist was an older version of the Lillith incarnation and, upon her regeneration in Phoenix Court, regenerated into the Edith Sitwell incarnation (and is described as being "an ugly-looking baby with an old look about it"). RadMatter  ☎  23:51, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, it is the incarnation in Old Flames - I was stating that this Wiki originally didn't acknowledge the "lesbian novelist" incarnation as one of Iris' many incarnations. If you don't know, the Wiki treats Old Flames as the introduction of Iris as a DWU character (although Magrs' does not share this viewpoint, as he treats the Phoenix Court quadrology as the first appearance of Iris) - though the "lesbian novelist" incarnation is covered as she does appear in later sources. Also, as it's worth pointing out, Iris has many first, but separate incarnations - although the was once implied to be the "lesbian novelist" incarnation. Epsilon  📯 📂 00:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * If a rewrite of this page is in the cards, let me offer up a link to the FP wiki's page for Iris, painstakingly cobbled together many moons ago by the legendary User:WJDTwGL during a (unfinished) release-order binge of every Iris Wildthyme story. In my opinion it's close to a Platonic ideal of what this page could be, so it might be a worthwhile reference in any future editorial endeavors! – N8  ( ☎ / 👁️ ) 02:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I definitely like the detail that that page goes into, as it's a definite improvement over what is currently on this Wiki. I have a few problems with it, but it's still very good. Epsilon  📯 📂 03:31, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

@NateBumber Not to bash anyone’s work, but I find that page even harder to follow than our own. It is useful for sources we deem invalid and has some extra information, but the other information seems to be cobbled together randomly. No mention of Lillith, that I could see at least, and the Brenda Soobie incarnation is for some reason listed after Beryl Reid and Jane Fonda incarnations. Also, the incarnation with the white braid is recognised as being some unknown future incarnation rather than older Fonda. PoolsideJazz ☎  12:05, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

The "Katy Manning" Iris
What's the source for referring to Katy Manning's incarnation of Iris as the "Katy Manning" Iris, like this page, and many others, seem to be doing? I couldn't find any source on this page for using that denomination, other than a vague reference to a "certain actress" and a link to Katy Manning (Unnatural Selection), which itself uses a conjectural title. Danochy ☎  02:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe the name has been used in credits/promotional material, which is good enough for incarnations of Time Lords as per War Doctor. Could be wrong, I'm not the Iris expert here. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  08:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If there's an in-universe source or credit for that name, then fair enough. Whatever it is should be added to the main article or BTS section. However I have never seen promotional material used as a source for naming (outside of article name + conjecture tag, which is obviously not appropriate here), so I'd be a bit more wary if that were the origin. Danochy ☎  11:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Obverse Books have been consistent that she's the lookalike of Katy Manning on book blurbs and repeatedly in the series guidelines. No audio drama has ever referred to Iris by anything other than "Iris Wildthyme", even in The Two Irises, so in lieu of a cast credit, I'm sure the book blurbs and series outline can be used as an ad hoc credit.


 * Besides, the alternate is calling her the "Sixth" Iris, which is only explicitly stated by The Golden Hendecahedron, and contradicted by numerous other stories, so is hardly ideal. It's frustrating with Iris, as she's fun to read, but tough to Wikify. Though it is ironically in the spirit of the character. 📯 📂 11:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Oh I agree that this is a difficult case, but it's not a unique one. Just see how difficult it has been to name incarnations of the Master and the Monk, for example. Thanks for providing the source, however I would still be rather hesitant in using a series outlines or blurbs as an "an hoc credit". The credit for the character is always "Iris Wildthyme". Understandably, writers have opted to refer to her by the actor which plays her to make it obvious which character is being written for. I'm sure there are many series outlines, or similar, which have distinguished the Master based on the actor that plays them, but you would never see that reflected on the wiki.


 * It's important to note that the only cases with conjecture is used on in-universe pages is in the title of the page, i.e. only as a means of disambiguation. Further naming of the character typically uses only terms or descriptions established in-universe. In this case, the "Katy Manning" Iris is only used in-universe, but such use is not reflective of any in-universe material. The alternative being inaccurate is not an excuse to use break policy, in my opinion. It just means a better term must be devised (e.g. using descriptions of the character à la the Master). Danochy ☎  06:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Counterargument: the work done lately with linking templates for specific Irises and puzzling out which Iris is which is, I think, clearly a prelude to splitting off some of Iris's incarnations to their own pages (thus freeing us of the need to try and wedge her extremely nonlinear life into a linear biography). Hence the normal page-name conjecture rules will apply. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  07:10, 11 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that's a good point, and definitely a much-needed change. But the point still stands with regards to cases where this incarnation of Iris is being referred to on other pages. Like "the Katy Manning Iris did a thing", rather than simply "Iris Wildthyme did a thing". Danochy ☎  08:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)