Talk:Time Lord/Archive 1

How do they Time Loop planets
Has it ever been explained by exactly what technological means the Time lords create time loops that encompass planets. I really hate the whole lords of time excuse (like their title makes up where technology doesn't) or some obscure reference to "great power". Everything the time lords do has some device behind it. I once remember in Invasion of Time the Doctor said the Matrix would rig up a loop, but they didnt say what device actually did the looping. Is their any expanded universe material or known speculation on how exactly time lords are capable of this?

Time Lords a race?
Are the Time Lords a race, because some sources e.g. REF: Doctor Who: The Encyclopedia says that they are but various sources mentioning before the Time War e.g. TV: The Invasion of Time seem to suggest that they are more of a society? Which of it is it to be? Or is it not certain?

Also is under the Infobox Race category is a Female Time Lord called a Time Lady because humans are sometimes called Man and a male human is also called a man but women is not a species name so is Time Lady? --Skittles the hog 19:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ugh, not this again. Seems like this is EVERYWHERE on the net. Here are my remarks from the talk page on the main Wikipedia article about Time Lords:


 * I have never understood this claim. What is it about The Deadly Assassin and The Invasion of Time that makes people think that all Gallifreyans aren't Time Lords? I think the article would benefit of some very specific quotations from the script and critical sources to clear this up. The most I've ever come away with from these two Fourth Doctor serials is that the chapters represent socio-political strata in Time Lord society, not that you have to be part of one of these houses to be a Time Lord. Indeed the group living outside the Citadel in Invasion are specifically said to be TIme Lords, not mere Gallifreyans. This rather firmly attests that Time Lords are not just "the ones in the high collars", nor do they all belong to one of the "Chapters". It's rather like Harry Potter. You can be a witch and not a student at Hogwarts. LIkewise you can be a Time Lord and not a member of a Chapter. In both these serials we're simply seeing the Time Lords in the middle of political crises, so you get a disproportionate view of the electoral college, as it were.


 * Given that there are specific mentions of "Time Lord physiology" throughout the series, Time Lords are at least a race (in the sense of species). But the new series has been extremely helpful in positively asserting that the Time Lords are indeed a race. Mr. Finch positively identifies the Doctor as "a Time Lord" (not Gallifreyan) and says in School Reunion, "And what of the Time Lords? I always thought of you as such a pompous race." Likewise, Jabe in "The End of the World" is clearly looking for identification of the Doctor's species when her little "Blackberry" tells her the Doctor is a Time Lord. There really can be no doubt that the Time Lords are a race, and this article needs to reflect that.


 * As for the possibility that there are multiple species on Gallifrey, well, I think the article needs to give us a lot more than just "it is heavily implied". Where in Invasion or Assassin or Trial is it implied? How is it implied? Does it just come down to the fact that some of the Time Lord characters in Assassin die without regenerating? Cause if so, the threat of a non-regenerative death has been cited as a possibility at least as far back as Castrovalva, confirmed as possible in The Caves of Androzani, and was definitively shown as an option in "Last of the Time Lords". The Master clearly had the knowledge to suspend the Doctor's regenerative process in "Last", and so logically could have employed it in Assassin. Thus, the fact that "Gallifreyans" actually died in Assassin doesn't mean they weren't Time Lords. In fact, if you think about it, Time Lord police couldn't have just ordinary guns. They would have to have weapons which suspended regeneration; otherwise, shooting someone wouldn't be an effective deterrent.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 03:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * My understanding has been that all Time Lords are a Gallifreyan and the only race native to that planet. Not all Gallifreyans/natives are Time Lords. The Time Lords are a "group" of Gallifreyans who are in many ways superior. I've seen references to there only being about 1,000 Time Lords around at any given time.


 * Further, I've heard the terms Time Lord, Lord of Time, Time Lady, and Time Tot all used to describe members of this group. I suspect their species name would be a bit more exact if it went from person to person - titles are more colloquial and are subject to differences from the gender and maturity of the subject.


 * In The Doctor's Daughter the Doctor refers to the Time Lords as more than a race. He says they are "a shared history, a shared creed, a shared suffering" or something very similar to that. Hardly definitive, but it hints.


 * Sorry for any misspellings, I'm very tired and headed for bed. These are just my two cents. Hope it helps. --TheOmnius 07:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that the Time Lords are the race and that the so called "Gallifreyans" are just Time Lords who don't want to be called Time Lords because they don't like being considered the same as the Time Lords in the Capitol, whose desisions they disagree with. Gallifreyan is also just another one of many names atributed to the nomadic Time Lords who are also called Outsiders and Renegades. I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! Bigredrabbit 01:15, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

One of the Big Finidh Audios, Omega, says that Time Lords are Gallifreyans who own a TARDIS.TemporalSpleen 20:40, May 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Going back to this argument, PROSE: The Last Dodo has the in-universe The I-Spyder Book of Earth Creatures listing for Time Lord, which flatly makes them a species:
 * Time Lord
 * Location: worldwide
 * The Time Lord is a rare bipedal, bicardial mammal. It frequently mingles with herds of Homo sapiens, but can be distinguished from them by its unique physiology and distinctive fearless behaviour.  It is between approximately 1.5 and 2 metres in height, and can have white, black, brown or blond hair.  It is most commonly found in Europe, especially the United KingΘdom.


 * Addendum:
 * It has been suggested that the Time Lord is of non-terrestrial origin. However sightings spanning several millennia indicate that, even if it did not originate on Earth, it should now be classified as an immigrant species.


 * So there ya go. Absolutely in-narrative, absolutely clear.  Time Lords are a species.  02:44:03 Thu 08 Sep 2011


 * Yes, but The I-Spyder Book of Earth Creatures also can't tell that the Time Lords aren't from Earth. If they can be wrong about the major issue of home planet, I don't see why they can't be wrong about a minor issue of classification. The Insert non-formatted text here  source is just incorrect in-universe. -<Azes13 04:02, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

In "Planet of the Dead," the Doctor says, "I come from a race of people called the Time Lords." -unsigned
 * Have you ever thought that maybe the Doctor says that Time Lords are a race to non-Time Lords just so that he doesn't have to go through the whole explanatory process. He just says "Yeah, we're all Time Lords" to stop any further questions, as it would take all day. If you need any further evidence that Time Lord is a status rather than a race, just look at Listen. The young Doctor's father says to the other "he'll never make a Time Lord".
 * Conclusion- Not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords. Time Lords are not a race. Time Lord is a title given to those who earn it and/or the elite. When the Doctor states that the native species are Time Lords, he is extending the truth as to not have to go through the whole boring expanse of explaining the difference(s) between Gallifreyans and Time Lords. That should surely be the end of this tiring debate? The  Farty  Doctor   Talk  21:48, April 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * Except doesn't Borusa also call the Master a member of "this Time Lord race" at some point in The Five Doctors as well? Along with the Outsiders calling themselves former members of Time Lord society (i.e., not a separate species) and the aforementioned mentions of "Time Lord physiology", along with "Time Lord DNA" in, for instance, Evolution of the Daleks and River Song being "human plus Time Lord"? And that still doesn't change the fact that the Doctor consistently calls them a race on TV, nor does it disprove the "heavy implication" from The Deadly Assassin and The Invasion of Time seemingly being nothing more than speculation. Nor anything to do with The Last Dodo quotation above.
 * And how exactly does Listen directly contradicting the Doctor consistently calling his people a species or a race "end" or "conclude" any debate (personally, I think of the Listen example as vague and having ambiguous wiggle room like various definitions of one "having humanity" or "being a man now", especially taken on its own and word-for-word, not to mention the very nature of the episode deliberately leaving things unanswered or contradictory elsewhere)? This sounds close to the idea of "well, it's roughly translated from the Doctor's/Mr Finch's language, so he didn't REALLY say...", which is baseless, and has no place on a wiki. -- Tybort (talk page) 23:18, April 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * And taking The Doctor's Daughter as a whole, and Ten gradually growing to admit Jenny is his daughter, and not just the "shared suffering" speech in a vacuum, I agree with what User:CzechOut says regarding The Doctor's Daughter on below back in 2008. That RTD never backed away from "Time Lord" being biological, and that's the explicit point of The Doctor's Daughter. -- Tybort (talk page) 23:28, April 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * We can debate this until the cows come home, finding things to contradict each other. The conclusion of things are that Gallifreyans are the native species of Gallifrey, of which the Doctor is one. In Inference II, it was stated that Time Lords arose from Gallifreyans but nowhere, to my memory, does it mention them being a completely separate species. Either way, this debate is pointless. I'm not saying I know the answer but I'm saying we have to use our brains to fill in the gaps to come to the right conclusion. Until there is a definite answer, it doesn't go on the Wiki, as the rules state. There's evidence for both of us to be right and wrong. The  Farty  Doctor   Talk  23:38, April 18, 2015 (UTC)

Topics for separate articles
this could use splitting up, due to the volume of information.


 * Time Lord history
 * Dark Times/time of Rassilon
 * the Doctor's time
 * Time War (already have this article)


 * Time Lord government/politics
 * Time Lord physiology
 * Time Lord culture
 * Time Lord appearances in various media

--***Stardizzy*** 18:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So much for the race the writers wanted to make so mysterious... anyway, I agree, but culture, government/politics and physiology could all be merged with Gallifreyan, which is currently lacking, although it is not always clear which parts of them apply to all Gallifreyans and which just to the elites. 18:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Template
i've added a species template into the article, but i have left blank some parts that need filling in (as i dno't know the answeres) --Si 11:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, Time Lords aren't the species - that's the Gallifreyans - instead, they're more of a rank like a king or a politician. 12:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Time Lords as a God analogy?
It's obvious that at least some of the time they do the Time Lords up as gods of the universe, but is it the overall intention? The excuse used for Near-Humans (Namely: Time Lords evolved early, and other races evolved to be similar) is very much a "Created in His Image" type thing, and the "Protector of the Universe" combined with Destroyer of Races puts the Doctor, as the last time lord, in a sort of godlike mediator position. However, The Satan Pit seems to suggest that there are greater powers in Heaven and Earth than are dreamed of in even his philosophy. In short, my question is this: Is The Doctor, and by extension, are the Time Lords, intended to be seen as god, gods, or the closest thing we're going to get to gods? Or are they just another race, but really really smart? 24.205.50.170 03:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

"Aliens posing as gods -- it wouldn't be the first time." (Sarah Jane Smith, The Curse of Clyde Langer.) In Underworld, the Minyans are explicitly said to have regarded the Time Lords as gods, with undesirable results, and it's clear, too, that the Time Lords themselves came to the conclusion that this wasn't a good idea. They're powerful but they're not that powerful, compared with (say) the Guardians. The point about The Satan Pit, (above) is a good one and effectively rules out the capital-G God interpretation. The small-g god interpretation depends more on the individual's idea of what a "god" is than on what the Time Lords are. In some circumstances, the Time Lords would certainly be seen as godlike -- but in some circumstances, so would humans with access to 20th-century technology, let alone 21st-century technology. In the show itself, the Time Lords have always been shown as having real limitations. I don't think they're ever meant to be seen by the audience as gods, even when the story has them being seen that way by characters within it. --89.242.70.111talk to me 14:34, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

White Point Star
I watched The End Of Time part two with subtitles on: the subtitles showed it as 'Whitepoint' Star. 80.225.142.0 18:21, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Time Lords are a race!
Again in TV: The End of Time  The Doctor calls the Time Lords a race, I quote, "There not just bringing back THE SPECIES. It's Gallifrey!" in TV: The Sound of Drums the Doctor calls them the most mighty race in the Universe. Note the word RACE. Surely the TV Series is more Cannon than the books and other spinoff media? Especially the more recent episodes.--Gallifreyispowerful 11:53, January 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * All things are generally equal. (See Tardis:Canon policy for more info)
 * A race and a species are two different things, a race is a large group of people distinguished from others based on a common heritage (wikitionary), whilst a species is even wider and is a group of plants or animals that have a similar appearance (again wikitionary). Of course you can get more specific about species.
 * If you want to look at just TV media in TV: The Invasion of Time there was a distinction made between Gallifreyans and Time Lords, when Leela asks one of the Outlers if they're Time Lords he replies "We were." Which along with novels and audios backs up that it's a cultural fraternity of people. --Tangerineduel 15:57, January 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. If "all things are equal", why does this article's lead still unequivocally state that the species is Gallifreyan? At the very least this article should express some doubt as to what a Time Lord is. RTD has been absolutely consistent, from his second episode to his last, in portraying the Time Lords as a race. And by this, he's not using some trumped up wiktionary definition, but an actual definition I can find in the OED:
 * (in nontechnical use) each of the major divisions of living creatures: a member of the human race | the race of birds
 * There has never been an instance, not one, in the history of the BBC Wales version of DW in which this definition couldn't be applied to the words Time Lord. I appreciate that there are other definitions out there, including that of "subspecies" which would fit in nicely with what's been said above, but that's not what RTD has been using. An ordinary viewer encountering Doctor Who solely through the BBC Wales version will think, Time Lords:Gallifrey::Humans:Earth. Period. It's very simple. To the ordinary viewer's mind, there's no ambiguity there whatsoever. Since 2005, we've heard Daleks, Sontarans, Racnoss, Krillitanes, and various others described as races and species alike. We know, in this science fictional setting, that's what race usually means. RTD isn't applying some super technical, biological definition, just a commonly-understood one. In the same way that we might be called "Earthlings", Time Lords might be called "Gallifreyans", but that doesn't change the fact that we are biolgically human and the Doctor is biologically a Time Lord. RTD has never backed away from that; in fact that's the explicit point of The Doctor's Daughter.


 * Come to that, I can't readily think of a time in the BBC Wales version when the word Gallifreyan has ever actually been used . . . at all. Maybe it's been used to describe a writing system or a bit of tech. But I don't think so. I'm pretty sure RTD has been so consistent about the use of Time Lord that he's never actually let the adjective Gallifreyan come anywhere close to a script.


 * So for this article to arrogantly continue advancing its interpretation of the word based upon one line from The Invasion of Time — and the books and CDs that have trickled therefrom — is a bit churlish, and, actually, old-fashioned. Personally, I don't think that all stories are equal when it comes to this particular topic. I think that the article should be rewritten to emphasize the dominant opinion given by televised DW, with a section given to "other interpretations". Because you're talking about one line in one story of the 1970s, and a few things written in other media. And RTD's interpretation of the words Time Lord is foundational to modern Doctor Who.


 * The fact that the Doctor is the last of his species is the dominant character trait of the Ninth and Tenth Doctors. This concept doesn't mean so much if the Doctor is merely the last of his "community" or "cultural group", as is suggested by the previous poster. I mean, "I'm the last of the Flemish" is quite a different thing from "I'm the last of the Humans".  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 05:28, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned above, it was stated in (BFA: Omega) that Time Lords were Gallifreyans who had a TARDIS. This would presumably have been a rarer and more privelaged position earlier in Gallifreyan history, and as they moved on more Gallifreyans would get TARDISes, to the extant that most would have one and Time Lord would become synonymous with Gallifreyan.TemporalSpleen 20:49, May 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just noting for future use that ''The I-Spyder Book of Earth Creatures assigns a point value of 8963400 to the species known as Time Lords. One of these days this article really does need to be rewritten so as to reflect the totality of DWU fiction. It's so incredibly, obstinately biased towards the wilderness years definition, it's not doing anyone any good.  02:51: Wed 04 Apr 2012

Gallifreyan Plus?
So after watching A Good Man Goes to War... the Doctor basically said that Time Lords had their DNA altered through billions of years of being exposed to the time vortex and the untempered schism. This means that they're not just Gallifreyans with the ability to Time Travel... they are genetically different. So shouldn't they definitely be a different species rather than a group? The Thirteenth Doctor 12:19, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

We already knew that the Gallifreyans evolved over time. The fact that this was due to exposure to the time vortex changes nothing. Gallifreyan is still the species. 90.220.167.26 12:42, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes but what I'm saying is, the page still lists them as a group, not an individual species. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:54, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Could Humans have evolved into Time Lords?
We saw Amy and Rory's baby evolve into a Time Lord and The Doctor said that his race evolved into what they are the same way so my question is could the human race have simply evolved into Time Lords and over the course of millions of years forgot?MrAnonymous 02:17, June 12, 2011 (UTC)MrAnonymous

No, though they look the same, they're completely different race. Cortion 17:02, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

The fact that Time Lord society apparently pre-dates humanoid life on Earth by some margin doesn't help. (The main article claims they held absolute power for somewhere on the order of ten million years. For reference, the earliest known example of humanoid life is roughly four million years old.)Raven&#39;s wing 06:45, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

I think it's possible. In "The End of Time" episode The Doctor says humans evolve and change but keep going back to their standard form. I think it's possible that in our future while traveling through space our species lands on a nice big planet orbiting a binary star system. The system eventually drifts near galactic center, but more importantly the time vortex forms, over a few generations the human colonies mutate into time lords. Just because their order has been around so long doesn't mean the Time Lords necessarily predate humanity; it just means at some point they travelled back to before their ancestors colonized the planet.
 * What. Raven&#39;s wing 07:19, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Jenny and River Song
Both of these characters are Time Ladies. Regardless of how they are created, they show all the characteristics of the classic Time Lord/Lady. Thus they should be removed from the list of partial time lords. 214.13.69.132talk to me 13:42, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

In respect of Jenny, we have the Doctor's own assertion that she's not a Time Lord, because there's more to it than biology -- shared culture, etc. The same applies to River, with the addition of biological factors: "You can't just cook yourself up a Time Lord." --89.242.70.111talk to me 14:08, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

That was in the beginning of the show....he accepted her and offered to bring her with him in the Tardis. 214.13.69.132talk to me 10:23, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

He certainly accepted her as his daughter and did indeed offer to take her with him in the TARDIS -- but neither that acceptance nor the offer rescinds his assertion that she's not a Time Lord. Of course, if she had gone with him, he might very well (almost certainly would) have given her as much of the requisite training, cultural knowledge, etc. as he could. By the end of that, she'd at least have been much closer to being a full Time Lord than she was at the start. She might even have been close enough for the Doctor to regard her as a Time Lord. However, that didn't happen -- or, rather, it hasn't happened yet, though it still could. --2.96.26.136talk to me 10:51, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

religion for gallifrey
what religion was it called for Gallifrey and Time Lords?

--User:JarodMighty 15:25, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Growth Speed
Just something that occurred to me as I was watching The Sound of Drums, was that in the Master's memories of first being shown the Untempered Schism (or time vortex thingie) and he looked around 6-10. The Doctor said that Time Lords were taken from their families at age 8 and enrolled in the Academy, so do Timelords, before they regenerate for the first time, do they grow at a natural human rate? User:Scarletwind/Sig 03:20, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Definitely not. 1) Consider the First Doctor. When he regenerated he was about 450 years old. Did he look it? No. Yes, he looked old but nowhere close to that old! 2) The Doctor said he was a teenager for 50 years (see The Doctor's age for more information). I suppose it's possible, and this is purely speculative, that they don't start off as infants like humans do, or that they only develop their Time Lord features (as opposed to just Gallifreyan - like regenerating, and ageing slowly) once they look into the Untempered Schism. Actually, my last idea is more based on fact. It's clearly stated that the Gallifreyans evolved into Time Lords through prolonged exposure to the Time Vortex in A Good Man Goes to War, when it's also explained that River developed her Time Lord features by exposure to the Time Vortex when being conceived. Also being initiated into Time Lord society and becoming a Time Lord is greatly implied in the Doctor's explanation of the Untempered Schism and the Academy. The elite of the elite. I think the most rational option, though speculative, is that they only start to slow down their growth after exposure to the Schism, thus also gaining the ability to regenerate. SmallerOnTheOutside ☎  04:21, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I would actually imagine that they would grow at a swifter rate when they are young and then slow down when they are older (say about 200, when they are generally not called 'young' anymore). Masterpwn ☎  13:39, March 21, 2014 (UTC)Masterpwn

Jenny's Revival
Jenny - the artificially created daughter of the Tenth Doctor. A "generated anomaly", she had two hearts but was not 100% Time Lady, and Martha Jones suspected she was unable to regenerate. She was shot, and was believed by the Doctor to be dead. However, soon after her death, she came back to life with an energy release in a process which appeared similar to regeneration, but without the change of appearance. (TV: The Doctor's Daughter)

The "energy release similar to regeneration" was actually closer to the "energy" of the gases released by the sphere. If you look closely, you can see the effects more closely resemble what was released from the sphere rather than regeneration energy as we see from the 10th (Christmas Invasion) and the 11th (Eleventh Hour). Masterpwn ☎  13:37, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Eye of Harmony

 * One such star had been exploded but its development into a black hole had been frozen, trapped in a permanent state of decay and was kept under the Panopticon as the Eye of Harmony to power the civilisation of the Time Lords. (TV: The Deadly Assassin, Journey of the Centre of the TARDIS'')

I don't think Journey says anything like this beyond it saying it was trapped in a state of decay. If anything, both Journey AND the 1996 movie describe the Eye as a source that exists inside the TARDIS (but has the same name), especially considering that Gallifrey and the Panopticon didn't exist in the Doctor's universe during Journey. -- Tybort (talk page) 15:50, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

Page protected
I've protected the page Time Lord temporarily to prevent an edit war. If the user who keeps adding the info would like to defend it here and allow for discussion, please start a new topic on this page. Shambala108 ☎  22:57, December 17, 2014 (UTC)