Forum:Are the Cyberman factions REF-only?

How much of the Cybermen splitting into factions is actually supported by the DWU? Or are CyberMondasian, CyberFaction and the rest purely here due to REF: Doctor Who: Cybermen, material that only belongs in the Behind the scenes section of an article? I notice an admin not too long ago added a deletion template to at least one of them.

Now, if their divergence and factionalising is supported in story, even if the names aren't, I can sort of see why the Doctor Who: Cybermen terms have a place in the wiki. -- Tybort (talk page) 02:27, March 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I believe that David Banks, the creator of these ideas, also used them in the novel Iceberg. Doug86 talk to me 01:20, March 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, the immediate answer to the title is "no", which is a start. Not sure how best to word the followup, but I'll try: how many of the ideas and factions are alluded to in Iceberg? Is it just the CyberFaction split? -- Tybort (talk page) 01:54, March 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's quite as simple as "yes" or "no". The true answer, at least insofar as Iceberg is concerned, is "sorta".  The following terms do not appear in the novel at all:
 * CyberFaction
 * CyberMondasian
 * the demonym Mondasian — it's Mondan


 * The word Faction, however, does. And the Faction is defined as,
 * "the Mondan sect who wanted to fully embrace the logic of the cybernetic way. As Mondas continued to drift to the edge of space, they had dared to leap across to the outermost world of the system, Planet14.
 * "The Mondans they left behind had, like the Faction, augmented their failing bodies with mechanical devices. But they could not bring themselves to convert fully.  They refused to divorce themselves entirely from their inefficient organic origins.
 * "They turned their attention instead to speeding the Return.
 * "Harnessing the power of the magnetic field, the Mondans steered their world back to its original orbit."


 * The book then goes on to describe the events of The Tenth Planet and saysthat "Mondas was torn apart. The planet, its inhabitants and the invasion forces deployed on Earth, shrivelled, disintegrated, and were obliterated [while the Faction] observed the disaster from their hidden base.


 * So basically, Mondans — not Mondasians — were the Cybermen in The Tenth Planet, and Banks gives a reason why the look so different to Cybermen we see later. "The Faction" were dissenters in Mondan society who went on to become the dominant form of Cyberman, because the Mondans were all wiped out.


 * This means that, at least according to Iceberg, our entire system of categorising Cybermen as Cyberman (Mondas) is a bit misleading.  Banks' theory is quite clearly that Tenth Planet — or Mondan — Cybermen are extinct throughout most of the history of Doctor Who.  The dominant form of Cyberman actively turned their backs on Mondas, and would likely be offended at being called "Cyberman (Mondas)".   Yeah, okay, technically true, as both sides of the argument arose on Mondas, but for most Cybermen, it's been a loooooong damn time, and a kind of non-shooting civil war, since Mondas.


 * Again, this is just going off Iceberg.  08:07: Fri 16 Mar 2012
 * Oh, it appears that CyberMondan is used once to distinguish from Organic Mondan, basically meaning converted versus unconverted Mondans. Frustratingly Organic Mondan is also rendered as organic Mondan. But there are only two instances, so we don't even get the advantage of a tie-breaker.


 * It should be pointed that all this is a very minor part of the book. All of this "Cyber history" takes place over about two pages.  Hardly a big deal.  I've reprinted everything of relevance.  So whatever else is at the existing articles is not coming from Iceberg.   08:20: Fri 16 Mar 2012


 * As Tybort mentions CyberNeomorph is prop deleted, over on its talk page is a discussion of where the info comes from. Probably The ArcHive Tapes, which are basically David Banks reading the in-universe sections of Doctor Who: Cybermen.
 * It's been a very long time since I listened to them, but I don't recall it being a narrative, it's more David Banks reading a history than any sort of narrative performance.
 * Give what's in Iceberg should we rename CyberFaction to The Faction and CyberMondasian to Mondan? Given at least these terms are from within a narrative, whilst CyberFaction/CyberMondasian are a bit more dubious. --Tangerineduel / talk 14:36, March 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's never that simple, is it? Also, does a new topic in the Panopticon regarding action be taken?


 * Anyway, I suppose that garners a move of Mondasian to Mondan or Organic Mondan? There's also Sea Devil (Mondasian), but I have a feeling that changing that to Sea Devil (Mondas) would lose absolutely nothing. Also, the category Category:Mondasian species.


 * Should "the Faction" refer to all non-Mondans, or just the ones positively identified by Iceberg (as well as presumably The Invasion, given that seems to be where "Planet14" originates from)? -- Tybort (talk page) 15:20, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well, again, I was just reporting what was in Iceberg. Mondasian is such a weird demonym that it must come from somehwere other than the mind of the person that started the article. All that's happened thus far is to eliminate Iceberg' as a source, not eliminate it entirely from the DWU. I don't think we should take action until we do a bit more research. 16:27: Fri 16 Mar 2012

I'll try and rephrase this: are the Cybermen, who come from "our" universe, when it gets down to it, Mondans (the ones that remained on Mondas) and the Faction (everything else)? Is THAT what Banks' passages are saying? Because I'd really like to sort out categorisation of Cybermen factions whose leading source seems to be passages in a non-fiction book, which in some cases seems to would mean shoving the lead as well to the Behind the scenes section. (Note that this applies more to Nomads, Neomorphs and Telosians than Mondasians/Mondans and the (Cyber)Faction) -- Tybort (talk page) 20:29, March 24, 2012 (UTC)