Howling:Donna and the Chameleon arch

As far as I'm aware, the Watch doesn't actually store the Sentience/consciousness, only the personality and memories. The 'soul' for want of a better word remains inside the body, and the Arch inserts false memories and a new personality into the Time-Lord's brain. It's a .bit. like regeneration in that sense.

One thing I've wondered, the Doctor was able to change his DNA from Time-Lord to Human using the chameleon arch, storing his conciousness in a fob watch. Was there anything on screen to suggest that he could not do the same for Donna? If he could do that, wouldn't that solve the problem of her conciousness being Time-Lord.

I've been thinking about possible reasons that it may not have worked, such as Donna not being fully Time-Lord so it wouldn't work on her, or the chameleon arch being broken, but it really confuses my why the Doctor wouldn't attempt to fix it then use it on her, making her Human again. Does anyone have any sort of idea why he didn't, or possible reasons why he didn't? The Thirteenth Doctor 18:51, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Being half human wouldn't effect the chameleon arch, since the doctor is half human. He didn't need to use the chameleon arch on Donna, because physcially she didn't change at all. The Doctor's mind was just in her head, and that was too much for her. The chameleon arch was used to change biology, for example John Smith only had 1 heart. Since Donna's problems were with her brain, the Doctor just had to wipe her memory using his weird mind meld thing.Icecreamdif 18:58, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure her biology changed. Both she and the Doctor said she was part Time-Lord. And he could still use it to store her conciousness, couldn't he? The Thirteenth Doctor 19:03, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

The part of her that was timelord was her mind. There was a line somewhere in the episode where she said something like, "I got the best part of the Doctor-his mind." Her body was still human, and she still only had one heart. The only thing that was killing her was a timelord mind in her head, so the Doctor wiped her memory to solve the problem.Icecreamdif 19:07, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Duh...NO! This is the stupidest idea ever and this is wrong on so many levels...


 * 1) There is nothing to suggest that the Doctor has another chameleon arch fob watch or that the chameleon arch can work without one.


 * 1) The chameleon arch creates a completely new identity, and wipe out all memories...so if successful, Donna would forget her family and human life as well...that's like murdering Donna mentally...if the DoctorDonna thing didn't kill enough of her life, this certainly will help kill all of it....


 * 1) we only know that the chameleon arch works on Time Lords...and Donna's biology is definitely not fully Time Lady...


 * 1) the chameleon arch is not perfect, the Time Lords under chameleon archs still have past memories as dreams...this mean if it works, it only makes Donna more human in biology...Since Donna's knowledge was gained through external means, we have no way of knowing what the chameleon arch will do to it...if this factor hinders the process, she will end up with a more human biology and the same amount of knowledge, it only makes sense that she will die faster...


 * 1) Even if successful, Donna will definitely not be better off...because as seen in the Master's case, simple keywords would trigger some of the memories back...and it definitely makes no sense to just throw away the fob watch and Donna's consciousness just to prevent her from opening it....that's like executing someone to prevent someone from committing suicide...


 * 1) The process is extremely painful even for a Time Lord...a half human biology may not be able to stand it...


 * 1) The Doctor's memory wipe thing was really quick...and the chameleon arch thing isn't...by the time the Doctor has everything set up, Donna would have already died...and if he has to memory wipe her before he has time to use the chameleon arch...there's no point in doing so...


 * 1) The chameleon arch is built to disguise, it is not built to wipe away memory...we have no idea what side effects it would have if use for other functions (e.g. Is there a specific time limit where the consciousness would return to the body that we have yet to see? Can the body be too far away from the fob watch? Will there be long term side effects like reducing decades of lifespan?) --222.166.181.186 20:21, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * 222, this is your problem, you come in and say "this idea is stupid", "you're all so stupid". Just stop, okay. Give input and your opinion, yes, but stop calling other peoples ideas and opinions stupid. If you do it again, I'm simply going to request you be blocked. --The Thirteenth Doctor 20:26, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who said anything about you all being stupid? What's wrong with the idea being stupid? This idea contradicts so many points presented in the show that it can never be reasonably fit into any theory. I am surprised it gets mentioned, since the whole deal with Donna is that erasing her identity was killing her, and the point of the chameleon arch is that it's the ultimate erasing of one's identity.


 * May I also suggest you to please use talk pages...many of the threads in the Howling are filled with your posts that complain about specific users or threatening to request blocking specific users and not deal with anything remotely related to the topic. Regardless of whether or not you agree these posts with no information are spams, I highly doubt other users will enjoy looking through these posts to find the information they want. --222.166.181.217 21:12, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have been using talk pages up until today. Your IP keeps changing several times per day so messages will not be delivered to you. The only way to make sure you get the messages is to post it on places you will see them. You've done it before on other threads, calling people stupid. If you think they are spam, ask an Admin, and other users would most probably rather read a warning to you than have you calling them stupid or insulting their ideas.
 * The idea does not contradict things in the show. Firstly, the Doctor's actions were not memory wipes. All the information and memories are still there, simply suppressed. I mean, a point you said was "There is nothing to suggest that the Doctor has another chameleon arch fob watch or that the chameleon arch can work without one." There's nothing to suggest that he has only one either, is there? Your other points are all based on the limits that we've seen. We don't know its full capabilities and to say that it has certain ones is wrong. --The Thirteenth Doctor 21:31, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you please stop turning every thread in the Howling into complaints about other users. I have said in almost all of the threads where you quote me to please read everything I typed. I didn't just say "This idea contradicts so many points presented in the show '"' I said "This idea contradicts so many points presented in the show that it can never be reasonably fit into any theory. I am surprised it gets mentioned, since the whole deal with Donna is that erasing her identity was killing her, and the point of the chameleon arch is that it's the ultimate erasing of one's identity."
 * I initially said "the Doctor's memory wipe thing " and not "memory wipe" deliberately because I don't know what it is.
 * When you form a theory or speculation, you lists its limits and supports. Saying that "there's nothing to suggest that he has only one either" does not help the discussion because it does not strengthen nor weaken the theory, it's just an ambiguous point that doesn't help to define anything. This is along the line of River Song may be Romana because Romana is not on screen.
 * Can you please point to me what is inappropriate about my points being based on the limits that we've seen? Are we suppose to speculate limits now? Or were you expecting us to ignore the limits we've seen?
 * I fail to make any sense out of the statement "We don't know its full capabilities and to say that it has certain ones is wrong."...please clarify what you are trying to say if you actually a response. If you mean we can't believe any limits we've seen on screen because we don't know the full capability of a chameleon arch, then can you please tell how it doesn't apply to any other topic such as the Doctor, Rose, TARDIS, Gallifrey, the Timelords, human race, planet Earth, the Sun, the Moon, and anything else that you can find on the wiki--222.166.181.216 21:54, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not turning them into complaints about other users. 203 and you are the only ones I've complained about because every theory I've posted since you arrived, you simply say "that's stupid" or "you're stupid." Then you say that I'm vandalising pages, when you remove posts on other users' talk pages and I undo them.


 * No, we're not supposed to speculate limits. That's the whole point. You're using what we've seen on screen as limits, saying that it would create another identity, it wouldn't work on Donna because she's not fully Time-Lord etc. That's putting limits on it. On the wiki we never put anything on articles which state that something has limits unless these are said on screen by a reliable source. For example, we can't say that the laser screwdriver could only age and kill just because that's all we've seen, it could have more uses that we don't know about.


 * I'm not going to argue with you any more, nor am I going to respond to any of your posts. Every time I make a contribution you claim that I'm not reading your posts, spamming, vandalising and going off topic when you clearly have not read the full page to see how the discussion has progressed to that point. And I'm going to ask you not to post to any of my threads either. If you do, I simply will not respond. The Thirteenth Doctor 22:19, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I said "we only know that the chameleon arch works on Time Lords...and Donna's biology is definitely not fully Time Lady...", I didn't say "we know that the chameleon arch works on Time Lords...and Donna's biology is definitely not fully Time Lady..." That means "it may not work on Donna" NOT "it would not work on Donna"...Throughout all your posts in this thread you just constantly try to gain reliability by misquoting people...This certainly isn't helping the discussion.
 * In many of your posts, there are many flawed theories...like the recent River/Rory one and this one...People didn't respond not because they agreed, the as you can see soon after your posting, people just didn't bother posting because both theories contained obvious flaws. If you don't like discussions and feel that no discussion should point out the limits and contradictions in your theory; I don't think you should post it in a discussion forum as you have no intention for making the content available for discussion.
 * Moreover, the fact that you said I'm speculating on the limit is just contradictiory with yourself and mostly wrong:
 * 1. We know that when the Doctor knew about Yana's fob watch, he pretty much knew he was a timelord


 * 2. This is a point that you have also raised in the beginning of your thread and not answered, I just included it in the list of limitation. If you think you are wrong, you should talk to yourself, not me.


 * 3. I am not speculating...I am saying things that are supported on screen. YOU, on the other hand, have on numerous occasions speculated on far-fetched idea where there are completely no supports in the show, and when confronted, this is what you answered,

4. Moreover, I raised eight points that make the method invalid/meaningless, and you have not made any reasonable attempt to counter/explain any of them. Everything you have done after these points been have been raised has only been attack people in an attempt to make other users less reliable and not the ideas. Please read the text when you enter the Howling "This forum is not to be used for general discussion;" so you either deal with the topic you made or you should keep your discussion to your private blog or something. Almost every thread you're involved in in the past few days contain endless posts about you complaining about users, but very little and almost no information regarding anything related to the topic. If you think other users enjoy that, you should ask them to do some sort of vote in Panopticon or in your personal blog. You are ruining the forum for everyone. You probably shouldn't wonder why people don't post responses to your thread. --222.166.181.6 06:08, August 4, 2010 (UTC)