Howling:Mystery continues as River lands the Tardis

Great funny clip at http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/time-of-angels-clip-4453.htm but the mystery just deepens. How will they explain River knowing how to drive / land the Tardis etc. Is she a Time Lord after all (which would be a little disappointing after all the speculation there has been so far) 86.26.137.154 09:00, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Cuz she's an archeologist as she said in the library episodes, she might have a vast knowledge of machines like the TARDIS which now belongs to an extinct race. So she knows tons of stuff about old things, and this kinda trails off to the season finale explaining her presence there. Cuz the pandorica might/will/nearly open and an ancient evil entity appears in it, so maybe River has some knowledge about them and maybe some use to the Doctor. OR the doctor and Amy run into her while she is in the ruins of the Pandorica and stuff.Vboy1810 09:06, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

River Song's diary classed the events of The Time of Angels and Flesh and Stone (being with the Doctor at the crash of the spaceship, ect.) as being after she first ever met him. Things happened involving her and the Doctor before thso upcomming two-parter, so yes, it get weirder. Delton Menace 11:44, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, agreed with Delton Menace. In the Doctor's (and our) future, but River's past, the Doctor presumably teaches/will teach/taught her how to fly the TARDIS.

As for how she knows how to turn off the brakes when he only learns to do that in this episode from her--well, it could be a temporal information paradox, but I'm guessing either he gives her an instruction manual that he never bothered to read, or she finds some notes left behind by Nyssa on "some stuff I figured out so the next clever and technologically advanced companion (not a 20th-century Earth stewardess, put this down Tegan, I aready explained that was The Master tricking you) doesn't have to work it all out for herself." --166.135.137.95 12:41, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

A thought: What if the cracks in time are somehow giving her pieces of knowledge and/or memory of the Doctor down the line. It's possible that her knowledge and feelings of closeness with the Doctor are the result of some cosmic accident/incident. cb

I heard a rumour that this is not the first time they meet and when she lands in the Tardis she knows him but only recently. I hope that makes sense but with Time being all funny it kind of makes sense and it is Steven Moffat so he's not going to be easy in making them meet. Maybe they meet in the Finale but who knows we will have to just wait 2 days :) -- Michael Downey 13:38, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

And my statement actually makes more sense now that I've watched the clip from the post above. There's no way she's a time lord and how else would she know all that stuff and be able to speak to him like she knows him when she doesn't. This definetly isn't the first time they met, you can just tell but still like I said 2 days to find out. -- Michael Downey 13:43, April 22, 2010 (UTC).

River Song is a Time Traveler from the 51st century... ring any bells, people? Time Agents, and Moffat wrore for Jack, a 51st century Time Traveler, before. There is still lots of mystery about that woman, though. Delton Menace 15:41, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, as I suggested on another thread, the 51st century answers everything. We know that time travel in the 51st century was restricted to Time Agents and a handful of others, and who would that handful be if not licensed archaeologists, people who both have a good reason to go back to the past, and extensive training and practice examining things without disrupting them? Also, the fact that they have Time Agents implies that there was some unauthorized time travel going on, and again, who's more likely than renegade archaeologists, people who have the motivation to do whatever it takes to go to the past and the ability to get away with whatever they do there? --99.50.120.236 05:20, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Of course now that the episode has answered this question, it just leads to further questions. Amy: "How come you can fly the TARDIS?" River: "Oh, I had lessons from the very best." Doctor: "Well... Yeah..." River: "It's a shame you were busy that day."

So, who is this "very best" TARDIS pilot, and how did River and the Doctor meet him when she never met any incarnation of the Doctor who'd been alive before Gallifrey was destroyed? The Master in disguise? The Rani or the Monk? Some other Time Lord who escaped the LGTW? A future two-Doctors story where the 12th Doctor or the Meta-Crisis 10th Doctor (or the Valeyard) teaches her how to fly the TARDIS while the 11th is busy? Some non-Gallifreyan who reverse-engineered TARDIS technology? Iris Wildthyme (post-NA era, when she's from a different universe and isn't a Time Lady)?

Also, River can write Old High Gallifreyan, and it's been established before (Power of the Daleks and Five Doctors--and I think either Infinity Doctors or another novel more clearly established that the "written in OHG so no one else can read it" bit in Power of the Daleks is supposed to include even other Time Lords) that the Doctor was one of the few people who knew OHG even _before_ the LGTW, which could just mean the Doctor taught her, but could be a hint to something much more mysterious.

It's worth mentioning two fan-theory identities, both of whom are ancient enough to easily explain her familiarity with OHG, although both also seem too ancient to explain her familiarity with the Type 40 TARDIS (which was presumably invented after the time of both): Pandora and Patience.

The former obviously fits with the whole "Pandorica" thing, but Pandora appears only in the BFAs, so she only exists if that storyline is canonical, in which case she's been destroyed by Romana III and K-9 and now exists only as a manifestation of uncontrollable pure hate. That might explain how she survived past the LGTW, but it doesn't sound very much like River Song. Also, she already manifested as Romana (I think both Romana I and Romana III, although I don't remember), so any "River Song = Pandora" theory seems pretty close to a "River Song = Romana" theory. And really, Romana as a future wife of the Doctor makes more sense than Pandora. But neither seems very likely. (And if they wanted a hint that obscure for the obsessive fans who know the BFAs that well, why dress Amy up as Romana, rather than River?)

The latter makes more sense. Patience was the widow of both Omega and the Other, and the wife of the Doctor. And, since the Other reincarnated as the Doctor, having Patience reincarnate as the Doctor's future wife fits in perectly. Especially given Cold Fusion's "It's not the first time you've met her, nor will it be the last" (although The Infinity Doctors seems to be intended as the fulfillment of that prophecy, and it would be a bit odd if the MAs are canonical but the PDAs are not). Of course this conflicts with the fan theory that Patience is the Woman in TEoT, but that doesn't matter--sure, they can't both be right, but that doesn't mean neither can be right.

Anyway, I'm not too impressed with either the Pandora theory or the Patience theory.

My guess is that Moffat really wants us to speculate about River Song's mystery, and to get it wildly wrong--and he pulled that off perfectly. --99.50.120.236 08:40, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Totally agree with that last comment..... Especially good writing with the apparant answers to 'is she your wife' type questions that the 'yes' reply is actually a reply to a previous question, and it doesn't come across like that on the subtitles either.


 * However, we only know River can write 1 particular phrase in OHG not that she knows the language. Is 'Hello sweetie' becoming a sort of codeword / catchphrase ?


 * Or, did the TARDIS driving instructor also teach River OHG ? I think Moffat is dropping enough hints that the 'best man' isn't the Doctor. but it doesn't seem right killing your driving / foreign language teacher does it? Cos we know from AKs interviews that's how River ended up in prison 86.26.137.154 09:42, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, there are still other people available in the future who could fit. "The best" that she learned from and "the best man" she ever knew aren't necessarily the same thing, so her driving instruction/language teacher doesn't have to be a man, or the person she killed. This opens up the possibilities of a future regeneration of Doctor-Donna (which is a ludicrous idea, but RTD brought it up as a possible explanation for the identity of the Woman in EotW), or Rose or the Meta-Crisis Doctor.
 * All of them seem more likely to, say, read an instruction manual than the Doctor, Donna just because of who she is, and the other two because they're growing/raising a TARDIS from scratch rather than just running off with one.
 * Either Donna or Rose would definitely joke about the Doctor behind his back with River, and I could imagine River refusing to tell him exactly what they'd said about him but continuing to tease him about it.
 * The biggest problem with all of these possibilities is that it seems very unlikely that they'd bring one of those characters back off-screen only, and we know they're not coming back on-screen.
 * There's also one possibility that fits both. Jack Harkness.
 * Jack has 3000 years, probably including many adventures with the Doctor, before he gets back around to the 51st century.
 * If Jack ever got the opportunity to fly the TARDIS, he'd be like a 16-year-old boy with a new sports car. If he didn't kill himself, he'd learn to fly it like a pro.
 * It's hard to imagine any situation in which Jack wouldn't try to get between the Doctor and River (read that in every way possible), or in which River wouldn't use him as something to tease the Doctor about.
 * Killing Jack might get you sent to jail, but it would be pretty easy to get yourself completely exonerated--during your appeal, Jack would just dramatically walk through the courtroom doors and announce that the rumors of his death have been greatly exaggerated.
 * Would anyone call Jack the best man they've ever known? Well, look at how self-sacrificing he eventually becomes (assuming he is the Face of Boe, that is), and how much growth he's shown from his first meeting with the Doctor already; give him another 3000 years, and it seems plausible. --Falcotron 11:04, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I like the Iris Wildthyme idea. Not likely though, as she never appeared in the series, only the books and audios. TemporalSpleen 12:54, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know--I could have imagined RTD letting Paul Cornell or one of the other Virgin-era writers drag Iris in (although it would have been complicated, her having subsequently pulled out of licensed continuity and into a whole different universe and a different set of intellectual property rights, even more so because it's the latter Iris they need to explain her not dying in the LGTW...), but I can't imagine Moff doing it in a million years.


 * Still, if he did--wow, think what he could do with that character.... --Falcotron 13:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * well i belive that river has lerned time travel from other time lords / half timelords think about it only two timelords lived to the end of the time war but whats to say that some did not run and hide before and hide among humans like the master but had to go fast and could not change to human so had to live under perception filters (witch have been mentiond a lot)
 * but also she might just be a ex time agent like jack both can fly the tardis (jack in parting of the ways) she also has a squareless gun like jack i prefer the time lord idea but still
 * Drwhoworld 19:01, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Drwhoworld 19:01, May 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just being a Time Agent might be enough to figure out the basics of operating the TARDIS, but it's hard to imagine it would be enough to fly it better than the Doctor does. I still like the Jack theory best.


 * Meanwhile, here's some more theories, getting progressively more crazy: K9 (various models),Bernice Summerfield, Compassion, Nivet, Fitz Kreiner (or Kode or other alternate Fitzes), Chris Cwej (or any of the alternate Cwejes), any other Time Lord or Faction Paradox/Remote agent from the FP/Enemy stories, Grandfather Paradox the renegade Time Lord, or Grandfather Paradox the idea (the twisted future version of everyone who ever lived), any Eternal, any Guardian, any other transcendental being. I can justify any of them as possibly existing in the post-LGTW universe (although some are harder than others), and all of them could be, if not "the best", at least a better TARDIS pilot than the Doctor and the best that River knows about. --Falcotron 21:17, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Just reading some of this made me think (sorry if someone already mentioned it). River learned to fly the TARDIS by the "very best" and the man she killed was "the best man [she has] ever known". Could this be the same person? I understand that the person who is the best at flying the TARDIS may not be the best person she's ever known but I still want to throw that idea out there. V00D00M0NKY 22:43, May 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's funny. At first, everyone assumed they _must_ be the same person, because the best is the best. Then, once a few people pointed out that the best TARDIS instructor isn't necessarily the best man she knew and vice-versa, everyone's been assuming that they _can't_ be the same person. Really, either option is perfectly possible. As I explained above, either Jack or the 12th Doctor could easily fit both. On the other hand, there are lots of people who fit one but not the other. --Falcotron 00:34, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Do any of you realise how ridiculous you sound? It's the perfect example of forced connections and seeing patterns that are not there. River is - get this - River! That's who she is. Don't accept any huge, shocking revealation. She's just a woman with a very complicated relatiosnhip with the Doctor and crossed timelines. Why must Doctor Who fans have so-and-so are the same person? Have you ever heard of something called new characters? No, apparantly not. Delton Menace 16:26, June 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Delton, did you even read the posts here? The assumption behind every post is that River is a 51st-century human who "learned from the best" how to fly a TARDIS, because that's exactly what the show has told us. No one's expecting any shocking revelation that she's a Time Lady or anything like that--if that were coming, there would be no mystery about how she can fly a TARDIS. So, who exactly are you calling ridiculous here? --Falcotron 02:49, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think its that big of mystery, the doctor meets her out of order and she has the book, she showed the doctor about the brakes to the current him. He takes this knowledge and the future him, shows the past her. So they create their own paradox. She shows him because he has to show her. 72.198.64.118 Anoyn
 * So Time Crash all over again? He knows what to do because he saw himself do it? V00D00M0NKY 06:47, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * River says in the Pandorica opens that the Doctor taught her to fly the TARDIS. Her other comment was a joke. this argument is unnessassery. Lu-igi board
 * River says in the Pandorica opens that the Doctor taught her to fly the TARDIS. Her other comment was a joke. this argument is unnessassery. Lu-igi board
 * River says in the Pandorica opens that the Doctor taught her to fly the TARDIS. Her other comment was a joke. this argument is unnessassery. Lu-igi board
 * River says in the Pandorica opens that the Doctor taught her to fly the TARDIS. Her other comment was a joke. this argument is unnessassery. Lu-igi board