Talk:Last Great Time War/Archive 1

According to an issue of Doctor Who Adventures, in the comic, the Doctor said that nearly every species was part of the Time War (although not at the same time and not for the whole of the Time War, I think only the Daleks and Time Lords were in the Time War for the whole war). I'm usure where to put this infomation. anyone?---Si http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/e4/Si_HTL_Seal_Leader.PNG 16:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC) All the species were involved, sure, because they're all involved in time. Not all species fought, however; take the Sontarans, for instance.

Is there any information as to which Doctor was involved in the Time War? I'm assuming it was the Eighth Doctor, unless he regenerated before the Time War. 82.46.190.172 01:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Could someone remove the obvious vandalism here? I would, but I don't even watch Dr. Who.98.201.35.10 00:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

When did the war happen
I have just gotten back into Dr. Who. Watched it as a kid on PBS and now that Scifi has it, I have gotten back in. In whatch many old episodes i saw the time lords still alive and have yet to figure out when the time war happened. Can any one tell me at least what Dr. fought in the war I know it had to be the 7th to 4th, but want to narrow it down.


 * The Time War happens off screen at some point after the Doctor Who (1996) film with Doctor number 8 and Rose (TV story) at the start of the revived series with doc number 9 - it has not yet been shown on TV, just something that is reffered to. It's not entirely clear what happens in it as a result. Jack's the man - 23:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello,

I must ask this question. Why does this article suggest the doctor implied he played a great part in the Time war(sourcing Dalek) then suddenly following up that he only suggested it because the Beast called him killer of his own kind(Satan Pit). These two episode are not related and did not even happen to the same doctor.

Doctor Who IX didn't imply a major role, he outright states he watched the ship burn, then stresses that he made them burn. This does not say implication to me.

Doctor Who X has built on that admission through implication, such as the Satan Pit, when the Beast calls him Killer of his own kind, the Doctor doesn't challenge him implying that he is right.

In essence, I think this article needs to be cleared up in that respect.

Also I don't know how cannon a comic book store is to the overall story of the Doctor. I have doubts about the peace treaty that allowed the Doctor to take the Master's remains from Skaro. If you watch the movie, you see that the Daleks judge the Master for all his evil crimes...almost as if they were acting as fair and impartial judges, strange when the Master has worked with them. I think some of the movie is confusing enough without mixing in questionable cannon of comic books. That, however, is mere opinion.

Tekphoenix 03:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)FolaTekphoenix 03:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

the reason it is implied that the doctor says to the Dalek in van staterns lab in the episode dalek when talking about the end of the time war 'I watched it happen I made it Happen' also in the sound of drums he tells the master that he ended the war and that the timelords and fro most part the daleks were dead

Watch the episodes Dalek, sound of drums and the episode satan pit that sohuold show you why it is implied.

As for the fair trial look at Romannas page i belive that explains it Assassin of death 13:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC) Assassin of death

Hi,

I have always believed that as the first mention of the actual time war seems to be in the 9th doctors series that either the 8th Doctor (Paul Mcgann) or the 9th Doctor took place in the time war, though I;'m not sure if the time or Doctor has actually been decided yet. That my view anyway, thanks for listening.

Where did the pic in this article come from?
It shows an explosion below and a bunch of saucers (Dalek ships, most likely) being swallowed up in the blast and exploding. Was this the Doctor sending an explosive to the surface of Gallifrey and blowing it up to kill the Daleks? I've never seen an actual flashback segment of the War on the tv series so where does this pic come from? Bttsstewart 01:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The picture is from here, under the Daleks. -<Azes13 02:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Is that picture actually cannon? It looks like it is the same picture on that site under daleks that represents "Skaro-Dalek Planet," but with fire added to the Dalek ships.Icecreamdif 02:34, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Survivors
As is, this article says there were only two Time Lord survivors. Yet before the Master's return we would have said there was only one survivor. So we have no way of knowing for sure just how many survivors there are. Shouldn't this be 'possibly two' instead?

"Two known survivors" would be the standard phrasing. Please sign your contributions to a talk page.Boblipton 17:41, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Removed origins section
Look, unless there's narrative proof somewhere that these are "early strikes" of the Time War, we can't use any of this. Even in the 2006 Annual article (which we can only use provided it's in the behind the scenes section), it mentions the story of the war is hard to piece together, and the exact cause of the escalations and the start of the war isn't clear at all. -- Tybort (talk page) 19:27, March 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Time Lords predicted that in one possible timeline, the Daleks would "destroy all other life forms and make themselves the dominant creature in the universe." The Time Lord Ferain sent the Fourth Doctor on a mission to Skaro during the Thousand Year War with certain objectives:
 * If possible, to avert the creation of the Daleks
 * Otherwise to alter their development and make them less aggressive
 * To find some intrinsic flaw or weakness to exploit in the Daleks
 * The Doctor believed he might have set back the history of the Daleks for a thousand years. (TV: Genesis of the Daleks)


 * Several key events occurred even before the Fourth Doctor's interference. These, including the Daleks' achievement of time travel with the TARDIS-esque Dalek time machine (TV: The Chase) and the Time Lords helping the Third Doctor navigate his TARDIS to Spiridon, (TV: Planet of the Daleks) were early shots fired in the Time War. (AUDIO: The Dalek Conquests)


 * The Daleks learned of the Time Lords' efforts and planned to use duplicates of the Fifth Doctor and his companions to assassinate the High Council of the Time Lords. These duplicates were killed when the station they were on was destroyed. (TV: Resurrection of the Daleks) One of the Dalek Puppet Emperors declared hostilities, although the Daleks claimed these were in retaliation for the Time Lords sending the Fourth Doctor back in time to prevent their creation.


 * Later, the Seventh Doctor used the Hand of Omega to apparently destroy the Dalek homeworld of Skaro. (TV: Remembrance of the Daleks)


 * The Daleks launched over a thousand ships into the Time Vortex, These forces were stopped by the Eighth Doctor, who left them trapped there. (AUDIO: The Time of the Daleks) The Daleks later made a deal with the Time Lords that allowed the Dalek fleet to leave the Time Vortex. (AUDIO: Neverland)

The Captain Jack's Monster Files episode on the Daleks makes it very clear that the Doctor trying to revert their history is what lead the Daleks and the Time Lords to go to war. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 19:43, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm reaching out on this, and I'm sure some would argue it IS an origin, albeit a far reaching-one, but the way I see read it is essentially, "the Fourth Doctor didn't prevent their creation, and seeing as they exist, they later fought in a war", and you could essentially replace any Dalek-related war with that. -- Tybort (talk page) 19:54, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * That quote was directly followed by talk of the time war. Obiously meant to be this. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 20:02, March 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * This is also confirmed in AUDIO: Ascension. JagoAndLitefoot ☎  18:48, November 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, as I've not listened to it, in what way does Ascension mention or confirm the link between the Doctor being sent back to the Daleks' creation and the Time War? I thought Big Finish had their hands tied regarding that. The FAQ outright says they are unable to feature the Time War in "any of [their] stories". -- Tybort (talk page) 18:56, November 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * They got a special one-time permission from BBC to include small links to the Time War in this release, which includes the new series Daleks on the cover of Gallifrey VI. Basically, Narvin sending Valyes to have the Doctor destroy the Daleks is said in Ascension to be a potential start of a major temporal war. It (the special permission) is discussed in the behind the scenes commentary. JagoAndLitefoot ☎  19:08, November 1, 2013 (UTC)

Involvement of the Doctor
I think we are speculating too much about the initial involvement of the Doctor in the war, while trying to find a harmony between the old and the new sources. The accounts from The Museum Piece and The Forgotten are contradictory compared with the new TV events. We should write, after The Night.. and The Day of the Doctor accounts:
 * ''According to other accounts, the Eight Doctor decided to start fighting after etc.... and he helped building the Moment etc....

HarveyWallbanger ☎  13:56, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * I did try the "according to one account" regarding Peace but one of the editors (who unlike me has actually read Peace) reverted, claiming that the ending was "left open", implying wiggle room to reconicle Night of the Doctor. That said, in The Day of the Doctor the War Doctor is clearly only vaguely familiar with the Moment's conscience and can't even operate it, so I don't think there will be any real complaints considering The Forgotten as irreconcilable. Looking at both this page and Great Key of Rassilon, however, it looks like Don't Step on the Grass is the comic which uses the term "the Moment". -- Tybort (talk page) 15:59, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Basically The Forgotten isn't completely contradicted by the Moment depicted in TDOTD. The Eighth Doctor retrieves the Great Key and what-not, and gives an explanation that he doesn't want to use it etc. A lot of things could have happened between The Forgotten and The Night of the Doctor, and we haven't exactly been told what. The problem from the IDW sources comes from Don't Step on the Grass, really, as the Tenth Doctor says that the Moment was activated by the Doctor "turning the key in the lock", which implies that the Great Key was a component of Moment. So clearly a contradiction exists between what Don't Step on the Grass says about the Moment, and what The Day of the Doctor says. From that point of view, and "according to this source" type of language should be used to describe what Don't Step on the Grass says, rather than The Forgotten.

To further clarify the Museum Peace argument, the story ends with a child being killed by a lone Dalek, and whilst Kalendorf stays with the authorities dealing with the incident, he is asked by one about the other man who was with him in the museum. Kalendorf replies to the question "who was the other man in the room?" with "a man looking for peace".

That's literally the closing line of the story, so as you can see there's plenty of "wiggle room" for Museum Peace to still fit with the picture of the Time War created by The Night of the Doctor. --Revan\Talk 16:18, November 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Good enough this way. Thank you! HarveyWallbanger ☎  16:24, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Change, or predestination?
A question I'd like to pose, in regard to both this article and the rest that are associated with it, chiefly the Ninth Doctor's page and The Day of the Doctor. Now, the articles around here written under the belief that the Time War was ALWAYS prevented by War, 10 and 11, but I personally beg to differ, instead believing that the Time War had originally ended WITH the destruction of Gallifrey by the Doctor, and that the Moment was influenced by Bad Wolf's personality to change history by having 10 and 11 involved.

But anyway, my question is, where is the general belief included in the articles derive from? I wish to know, because there's an equal possibility of what I'm suggesting (to which I'm not exclusive to) also occuring. Was this commonly decided by the site's mods?

Thank you for your time.
 * I suppose the main reason I think it was predestination was the mind wipe due to timelines being out of sync, along with the fact that the guilt for the Time War remained. Personally, while I personally think it always happened as it did, the "And I've seen that" could easily be interpreted to mean "I saw Gallifrey taken into the pocket universe while the Daleks blew each other up, but the time sync memories made me think I pressed the button and made it burn" AS WELL AS "I saw Gallifrey burn as I pressed the button alone in the original version of events". Maybe that's just me. -- Tybort (talk page) 17:45, December 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know, it seems to me like he had a pretty clear idea of what he did that day, before. Not like "I had a blur" or "I did it... but I don't remember anything afterwards" sort of thing. The "I've seen that" is pretty decisively meant to refer to the Doctor having SEEN the destruction happen.


 * The out-of-sync, I took, as the Doctors resuming their lives with only the most minimal of memories, and practically no remembrance of anything having happened on War and 10's part of having met 11 - whereas 11 remembers meeting them. That has been done before in the audio story The Four Doctors. Thus, they'd remember that they remembered on the original "timeline" - remember, the Doctor has noted that he can feel the change in time, as he's a Time Lord, and that allows him to have an extra sensor about the shift in the timelines.


 * Besides, it greatly takes away from the drama and joy of the special if the Doctor always did saved Gallifrey. When Eleven admits that he "changed his mind", its a revolutionary moment that has the Doctor willing to save his own world, for once, regardless of the Time Lords. HighlanderFan83


 * I actually listed a few reasons right here. TheMostBoringManInTheWorld   (talk)  07:05, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

So quick thought I had with respect to the Time Lock. from the perspective of the 9th and 10th Doctors, The Moment was used to end the Time War, Time Locking it in the process. The 11th Doctor also believed this to have been the case for the better part of his life, until The Day of the Doctor when he was able to retain the memories. Now, the 9th and 10th Doctors both believed that they used The Moment to end The Time War. However, they simply don't remember the events of The Day of the Doctor. So because The Moment was actually never used, and thus The Time War was never Time Locked. Anyone else see what I'm getting at here, or is it just me? Kremlin16 ☎  05:06, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Nope. The time-lock existed before the Moment was used. In The End of Time, a member of the High Council of Gallifrey said to Rassilon that they're time-locked inside the Last Great Time War. Dialogue in The Day of the Doctor suggests that The End of Time occured sometime before The Day of the Doctor (ie.: a member of the War Council says that the High Council's plan to save Gallifrey failed). So no, there is no paradox. TheMostBoringManInTheWorld   (talk)  07:13, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

A "billion billion" Daleks
I have a bit of an issue with the the infobox stating that there was literally 1018 Daleks based on the War Doctor's statement of a "billion billion". I thought it pretty clear he was just using hyperbole to stress to Ten and Eleven the severity of the situation, his tone of voice seemed to indicate this. There were billions of Daleks, sure, but literally 1018 Daleks is a ludicrous figure even for Doctor Who. Divide that up and you get roughly 100 billion Daleks per ship, which makes no sense. -  Halo-343   ( Talk )   ( Contribs )   ( Edits )  22:17, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Note about the Master
"Most of the inhabitants of Gallifrey at the end of the War survived, though apart from the War Doctor (TV: The End of the World, Dalek, The Day of the Doctor) and the Master, disguised as a human using the Chameleon Arch, (TV: Utopia) the majority of the Time Lords and Gallifrey itself were put into stasis in another universe. (TV: The Day of the Doctor)"

I think it should be noted somewhere that the Master has the distinction of both escaping Gallifrey and being trapped there. 98.127.119.21talk to me 02:25, June 9, 2014 (UTC)

Results
Wasn't the Nestene's planet destroyed as well?

Fireball99 ☎  22:38, September 1, 2014 (UTC)Fireball99