Forum:Magnus, Divided Loyalties and more

This thread was blanked by CzechOut at 14:21: Tue 06 Nov 2012. I am re-blanking and editing this forum post down to the most recent edits by 41.133.0.18 in order bring some clarity to the discussion that the previous copied text from the Magnus talk page did not.

The original discussion was at Talk:Magnus.

To 41.133.0.18 do not copy and past the text from that talk page. Users who wish to follow the discussion so far can go to that talk page.

Panopticon forum threads propose changes in the way we do things on this wiki. In simple terms, please restate what it is you're trying to change, and what supporting evidence you have for that change. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:50, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

This started on the Magnus article. An original point stating that Gary Russell explicitly stated that Magnus in Flashback(comic) was always meant to be The Master. It grew from there.

Summary
1)Gary Russell himself states that both he and Warwick Scott Gray agreed that the Magnus in Flashback(comic) is The Master.

2)The questions as to why/when/where things like Death Comes to time and Dimensions in Time are labelled non-DWU still stand. When did the creators of these, the Cushing movies, or various stories that tie into Dimensions in Time ever say those stories were non-DWU? And if they didn't what were the criteria for listing them as non-DWU here? Surely those criteria should be applied the same to every story, not just those select few?

3)Even if it is felt, for whatever reason, that the War Chief and the Master are two separate characters, there is clearly NOTHING in any media that states that they can not be the same character. 41.133.0.18talk to me 13:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

...Oh, and another point. The fact that Malcolm Hulke(writer of, amongst others, the War Games) stated that the Master and the Doctor were the only two renegade Time Lords he ever wrote for was dismissed, because it was "non-narrative". Yet, the supposed reason Death Comes Time is excluded from the DWU is because of a real-world statement that somebody thought he saw somewhere. The real reason is of course because it contradicts the established continuity to the point where no amount of fanwankery can reconcile it with established fact. Same as Divided Loyalties. Of course, if that real-world("non-narrative") statement is valid, then what about Russell's or Hulke's or...? 41.133.0.18talk to me 13:55, November 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * This issue is obviously very important to you. However, you don't seem to care about the people you are trying to convince. This page is a long wall of text that will turn away many readers. Instead of copy/pasting the other arguments, try giving a short summary of your arguments. Then you might get more discussion. Shambala108 ☎  14:49, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

It started off at the Magnus disambiguation page. Basically, a post by Gary Russell stating that Mag(n)us from the Flashback(comic) was always supposed to be The Master. Confirmed by Warwick Scott Gray, the person who actually wrote Flashback(comic). And that there is nothing in any media which makes that an impossibility. Someone else then took that to mean that I was stating that the War Chief is the Master. Not my original intent, but he said he was "going to support me". This site's policy is that anything in a Target novelisation which gives extra background to, without contradicting the original tv serial counts. so, the long passages of text are from Target novelisations of The War Games, Terror of the Autons, The Doomsday Weapon(Colony in Space) and The Sea Devils. As well as a real-world interview with Malcolm Hulke. This was then greeted with "But what about Timewyrm:Exodus and Divided Loyalties?" So, it was then a job to show how Timewyrm:Exodus doesn't contradict any of the above. Fine. Then came the biggie "Divided Loyalties". I had to give text from that book, as well as text from other narrative sources, showing how it can't possibly exist in the same universe. Another user appeared, demanding I take it to the forum, and locking that discussion. Someone else, then said that Death Comes to Time is excluded because someone supposedly said somewhere that it was non-canon. Despite no evidence. This, despite Hulke's and Russell's real-world statements being dismissed as "non-narrative"! The only way to get everything here, was to place the entire discussion here. Simply glimpsing bits will omit the development. The same person who locked the earlier discussion then blanked this one. They have also yet to actually state their position. 41.133.0.18talk to me 15:00, November 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh. earlier, the same person told me that "the burden of proof [was] on [me] to show that Round 4 Part 3 of divided Loyalties can't be part of the DWU". Immediately after I did so, he locked the discussion, saying it's "unfair to other users". 41.133.0.18talk to me 15:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * One thing I think needs to be made clear. When we tag things NOTDWU, we're not making a judgment on the "official" statement of canon, it is merely a statement of what we cover on this wiki towards in-universe articles.


 * For these we've had several discussions involving inclusion, as was mentioned on the Talk:Magnus page these are in the Forum:Panopticon archives, many of the pages have been categorised into further categories for ease of searching you can find the; inclusion debates in Category:Inclusion debates, the discussions relating to changes in policy in Category:Policy changers and explanations of policy in Category:Policy explanations. All of these have some bearing on your questions.


 * You may also wish to see Tardis:Valid sources which explains these rulings in a simple to follow page.


 * As to your query concerning Death Comes to Time (webcast) you can read the forum discussion here: Forum:Inclusion debate: Death Comes to Time. Although I'm not sure what this question has to do with your Magnus question.


 * As far as contradictions in the valid sources goes, don't worry about it. It doesn't matter if the valid sources contradict one another, we just present the information. Just because there's contradictions doesn't mean we discount one source, and a contradiction doesn't mean source or another is invalid. As the valid sources states "The DWU has messy continuity. A story can't be declared invalid just because it contradicts other stories".


 * Finally "giving the text", a small quote is fine, but as Shambala108 and CzechOut have said, summarise your statements, the great chunks of unformatted text do not assist the discussion.


 * Now to go back to your initial quote which started this whole thing:


 * He was in a strip I commissioned from Warwick Gray for the Time Lord special I did at Marvel. In Wick's original, he was called Magus and meant to be the Master but I cocked it up and called him Magnus. When Dave McIntee created Koschei, it struck me on re-reading Wick's strip that the character could just as easily, if not better, be the War Chief. Which he is in DL. Gary Russell rec.arts.drwho 04/11/1999


 * This quote if anything confirms what we have presented in our The War Chief article. That the War Chief is Magnus, as is in Divided Loyalties (novel) (or DL as Russell states).


 * In Gray's original, it was meant to be the Master, but the editor; Russell "cocked it up".


 * We take what's presented in the stories as the facts of the DWU universe, not what might have been. What might have been is interesting (when properly sourced), but it's stuff that goes in the "Behind the scenes" section on in-universe articles or the "Notes" section on story articles.


 * I think from that incorrect assumption you running with that theory and creating an argument to sustain it. But going by your initial point that began this discussion, what appears in Flashback is pretty much what we've got on this wiki at the moment. Russell might have made a mistake in his editing of the strip, but later he didn't attempt a ret-con of the story, he read McIntee's The Dark Path which is where Koschei comes from and wrote Magnus/the War Chief into Divided Loyalties, influenced in part by Flashback. --Tangerineduel / talk 06:37, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure you fully understand the point. Well, points actually. It started off as one thing, but is now a multi-purpose thing. However, separating them doesn't give a proper idea. which is why the original discussion at the Magnus discussion page is relevant to this discussion here. Even in a simplified, "bullet point", form. Gray and Russell both stated that Flashback was a Master origin story. Had this wiki existed then, it would have been a no-brainer to list that as a Master story. In fact, many wikis, books etc. still do just that. So, that was the point. Someone else(not me!) then stated "Are you saying the War Chief is the Master?" At that stage that wasn't my intention at all.But, after being spurred on, I found both narrative and real-world elements that showed they are. Then someone brought up Timewyrm:Exodus. Well, that wasn't a problem. Then came DL. And there's Russell's quote. There was a discussion about the Deca dream sequence, which apparently showed that the Deca sequences are dreamlike, not literal. Then I was told that i had to show that the epilogue sequence wasn't literal. So, the major continuity errors were shown, as well as the fact that elements from the dream sequence carry over into that epilogue. Then that discussion was locked. Now someone has looped back to the beginning! My original point was the real-world statement that Magnus=The Master. Who else was the Doctor's good friend in Gallifrey who he had a falling out with? But, apparently a dream sequence in a continuity-error-riddled book beats a real world statement. Fine.

The new issue is that on The War Games page it states something to the effect of "Myths:The War Chief is an earlier incarnation of the Master. But novels have disproven this". except they haven't. As shown on the Magnus discussion page, there is nothing in Timewyrm:Exodus that does that. There is plenty in the Target novelisations(the bits that give background without contradicting) that make them out to be the same. All we have against it is the dream sequence in DL that has Koschei(a name the Second Doctor had never heard before in The Dark Path) and Magnus together. But does that by itself prove that K'Anpo and Cho Je are two different Time Lords. Does The Two doctors prove that Troughton and C Baker were playing different characters. No. And as noted, the Round 4 Part 3 both contains dream elements carrying over and hopelessly contradicts both established continuity and the DL book itself! Now here's something someone said earlier:

''As far as contradictions in the valid sources goes, don't worry about it. It doesn't matter if the valid sources contradict one another, we just present the information. Just because there's contradictions doesn't mean we discount one source, and a contradiction doesn't mean source or another is invalid. As the valid sources states "The DWU has messy continuity. A story can't be declared invalid just because it contradicts other stories". ''

Now, here's some quotes from those Target Books(which five background without contradicting):

There have been two stolen, you know.’ The young Time Lord didn’t know. ‘By our enemies?’ he asked. ‘No. By Time Lords. They '''both became bored with this place. It was too peaceful for them, not enough happening.’ The old Keeper smiled to himself, as though remembering with some glee all the fuss when two''' TARDISes were stolen. ‘One of them nowadays calls himself '''“the Doctor”. The other says he is “the Master”.'''

The War Chief took the Doctor into his private office just off the war room and told his bodyguards to leave. ‘Now,’ he said, ‘a traveller in a time-space machine. There is only one person you can be.’ ‘I had every right to leave,’ said the Doctor. ‘And to steal a TARDIS?’ The War Chief smiled. ‘Not that I am criticising you. '''I left our people too. We are two of a kind.’ '''‘We most certainly are not!’ the Doctor protested. The War Chief shrugged. ‘Well, we were both Time Lords. Tell me, why did you decide to desert our kin?’ ‘I had reasons of my own. Rather different from yours, I imagine.’ ‘Probably they were. Why don’t you sit down?’

If ever he were caught, his fate would I be far worse than the Doctor’s exile. Once captured by the Time Lords, the Master’s life-stream would be thrown into reverse. Not only would he no longer exist, he would never have existed. It was the severest punishment in the Time Lords’ power. The Doctor knew that the Master’s presence on earth made matters far worse than he had feared. ‘You’re sure he’s here?’ he asked. The Time Lord nodded gravely. ‘We tracked him on the Monitor. Then there was some kind of alien interference and we lost contact.’

The Time Lord shook his head. ‘I’m afraid not, Doctor. As a matter of fact, I’ve come to bring you a warning, An old friend of yours has arrived on Earth.’ ‘One of our people? Who is it?’ The Time Lord pronounced a string of mellifluous syllables—one of the strange Time Lord names that are never disclosed to outsiders. Then he added, ‘These days he calls himself the Master.’ 

So, even if it's decided that the War Chief isn't the Master, tat "myth" and "there is evidence stating they aren't" should be removed. After all, one source(especially a dream-sequence in a continuity-error-full book) can not make the other invalid. Perhaps a change to something along the lines that he may be?41.133.0.18talk to me 08:29, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * You don't need to quote me as "someone" that said something "earlier" you can just refer to my discussion point above. This is a discussion, not an online message board.
 * I don't fully understand your point because you're making it really hard to understand.
 * As I have said above, please stop repeating information that's on the Magnus talk page, the dense text copied text is not helping your argument.
 * From the quote you've provided, Russell hasn't said that, he said Gray intended it and Russell cocked up it in the editing process. But what actually made it to print, that is what we use. Not what might have been, we also don't use deleted scenes to write in-universe articles either. But this isn't even that, it's something that was intended, but didn't make into print.
 * As to the Deca question. That discussion; Forum:How to handle the Deca has been waiting on you to continue to interact with the discussion process.
 * "Major" continuity errors don't invalidate a work. So, to answer your question yes. The information in a "continuity laden book" beats real world information. Divided Loyalties is not the only example of a continuity heavy book that contradicts what came before it.
 * Without any side references, without any points that other people have made, without any quotes to other things, please state, preferable in short bullet pointed sentences what you're actually arguing.
 * As at the moment all I have to go on is your initial statement at the top of the Magnus talk page and the citation of Russell's quote. I can't fathom why you're reeling off streams of novelisation info here, repeating what's on the Magnus talk page. Editors interested in this discussion will go to that talk page to see the information you're written there, or quite likely have already read the information there and followed the discussion here. --Tangerineduel / talk 09:32, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I stated it clearly and unambiguously above. If you honestly "don't fully understand", then perhaps someone who does should be the one responding to my posts? No offense, but I honestly don't know how I could have made that any simpler. 41.133.0.18talk to me 09:49, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Now, 41, let's be a little more respectful to the admin. If it turns out the messiness of this discussion is my fault by the way, I apologise. 41, I expected at one point to back you up, but you'll have to organise your points before I consider still doing that. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 12:23, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

I've chosen not to involve myself in this debate simply because I haven't read any of the sources in question. But from my understanding, The Quantum Archangel(novel) has appearances by the Deca. Hopefully that might be able to shed some further light on the subject and help out. --Revan\Talk 12:58, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, what does it say? That's why I posted all those "walls of text". because that's what it actually says in the relevant books, magazines etc. I haven't read Quantum Archangel. Does anyone have the actual passage(s)? 41.133.0.18talk to me 13:04, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from and see your clear points.
 * I take "above" means just below the summary section header, which is the only simple portion of your post not to have a large amount of copied text. The three numbered points left in your first post at 13:16, November 6, 2012.
 * Point 1, you state that Russell "and Warwick Scott Gray agreed that the Magnus in Flashback is The Master". But as the quote, that I have copied (unaltered) from the forum you provided clearly states it wasn't an agreement, Russell commissioned a strip from Gray.
 * Point 2, as I have already said is not relevant to this discussion (and have pointed towards where these discussions are, I won't repeat them here). Russell's comments do not concern the validity of the strip, he even acknowledges the character exists and used the character himself in his own work.
 * Point 3. I have already acknowledged that Russell's information is insightful enough that it should go on all three articles that are involved in this discussion; the Master's and the War Chief's (in the Behind the scenes sections) and in the Notes section of Flashback. That no media states they can't be the same character is not an argument for them to be the same character. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:12, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it is relevant in as much as that you agree that Divided Loyalties contains multiple conitnuity errors, it can not be "definitive". And, of course, as you admit that nothing in any narrative prevents them being the same Time Lord...well then...

a)Why are there various "MYTH:The War Chief is The Master. But licensed narrative states explicitly that they aren't"? When you've just agreed that nothing of the sort exists. Does that necessarily mean that they ARE the same? No. But to unilaterally declare that they aren't it clearly a mistake.

b)The original discussion was about who MAGNUS was. Remember? So, as Divided Loyalties does not explicitly state that Magnus is the War Chief(the passage is on that discussion page), and as Divided Loyalties does not explicitly state that the Master can not be the War Chief.....who is Magnus? All we have is a non-narrative quote from Russell. Make of that what you will. 41.133.0.18talk to me 13:18, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I was actually calling out the ridiculousness of your proposal. You need to start with evidence to prove something, you can't start with a lack of evidence as proof. That would be like saying; the Doctor and the Rani are the same person, because there's nothing in any media that says they aren't, which proves they could be.
 * Divided Loyalties may contain multiple continuity problems, but that doesn't prove anything. There are hundreds more stories that contain far more, bigger and greater contradictions that Divided Loyalties does. Compared to say War of the Daleks (novel) it's tiny.
 * So no I do not believe that the fact that Divided Loyalties having perceived continuity problems is relevant to this discussion. In fact I don't believe it's relevant to any discussion that's not in the Howling.
 * The point in the myths section of The War Games states that the FASA Time Lord (role playing book) states is where the War Chief = the Master is from.
 * I thought you were arguing that Magnus/the War Chief was the Master? And I thought that the quote you provided from Russell and info in Divided Loyalties proves that the Magnus is the War Chief. Your initial heading to the Magnus discussion which said "Magnus is supposed to be The Master!" kinda suggested that was the main thrust of your argument.


 * Finally, if we're to get into the Divided Loyalties discussion, right near the end on page 247/8 there is an epilogue which in amongst it states that;
 * "Koschei who, after leaving Gallifrey to seek his fortune, came upon the DarkHeart, a malevolent force that was to imbue him with a new sense of direction." - Page 247
 * and
 * "Unlike Magnus, the only one of the Deca to leave Gallifrey and face a rather ignoble end. Obsessed with the Aliens and their war games, he fled his homeworld and joined them, offering his services to build TARDISes for them. [...] The War Lord, however, was not as foolish as he seemed, although he was prone to bouts of extreme paranoia. And it was in one of these moods that he had Magnus executed when the final war game scheme fell apart and the Time Lords finally carried out their threat of erasure." - Page 248
 * Both are fairly explicitly different people and referring to different events, The Dark Path (novel) and The War Games (TV story) and are presented separately with Mortimus' account being between these two. --Tangerineduel / talk 14:53, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * well now it's me who doesn't have any earthly clue what you are stating. Yes, originally the point was that Magnus is the Master, as Russell himself stated that was the intent, and when Flashback was published that was the understanding, as everyone who read that Special thought. But then someone said that is "non-narrative". And that being "non-narrative" was all that was required. Now, Divided Loyalties has more continuity errors than pretty much anything else ever. But even ignoring that...nowhere does it state in Divided Loyalties that Magnus is the War Chief. It is implied that he is, but in the same way it is implied that the Man with the Rosette is the Master. Or it is implied in the Target novelisations that the War Chief is the Master. Since,


 * Since, Mortimus' account is the one preceding Magnus, it is simple English that Magnus is unlike Mortimus, not unlike someone mentioned before that. So, all that shows is that Magnus isn't Mortimus.


 * Regardless of where that "myth" comes from, the point is that there's nothing that proves it is a myth! It doesn't matetr where it "comes from". There is no myth in the first place. Because there is nothing that proves it's a myth! According to you, there's nothing which proves it's true(eh?), but it shouldn't be there at all.


 * Yes, originally, the point was that Russell's real world quote showed that Magnus was designed as the Master. After being shouted down a s"non-narrative" and being told that implication isn't proof, I then used YOUR argument to show that there is nothing that proves the Master is NOT the War Chief, and there is NOTHING in-universe which explicitly states who magnus actually is. Someone already edited the Man with the Rosette article to state that it's implied he's The Master, rather than state outright he's the Master. Which wasn't my actual intention, but is the first step, I guess. 41.133.0.18talk to me 15:04, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, and btw the FASA Role Playing Game doesn't state that the Master is the War Chief. In Book 2 of 3(the Sourcebook) its states the opposite. On pages 6 and 7 it lists the Master and the War Chief as two separate Time Lords. On page 17 it explicitly states that the Master is the Meddling Monk. Now, this wiki considers the FASA Game to be non-DWU. But the point is that people(including you) repeatedly state that the FASA Game says the Master is the War Chief. When it doesn't. In fact it states the complete opposite, yet you stated matter-of-factly that it said that. By the same token, people here have said for instance that "Timewyrm:Exodus proves that the War Chief isn't the Master" or "The War chief dies in Timewyrm:Exodus". Neither of those statements is true. Just like people say that Divided Loyalties proves that the Master isn't the War Chief or Divided Loyalties states that Magnus is the War Chief. Neither of those statements is true. I honestly wonder when people here cite books, games, comics, audios, tv shows whether they've actually read/watched/listened to them, or whether it's just something they heard somewhere. I haven't read the Quantum Archangel, so i admitted that. Rather than acting like an authority on something I've never read.


 * One take on it is this: Magnus isn't the Master or the War Chief. Why? Divided Loyalties never says he is either. And at the end of Divided Loyalties it explicitly states that he met an ignoble end, and was erased from ever having existed by the Time Lords. Magnus' activities with the War Lord in Divided Loyalties bear no resemblance to the War Chief's. And Divided Loyalties states that there were several different war games, not just the one seen on tv. The Flashback comic states that there is no chance of reconcilliation between The Doctor and Magnus. Going by a purely narrative in-universe manner(which you go far), the only rational explanation is that Magnus was another non-War Chief Time Lord, who had a falling out with the Doctor, left Gallifrey, worked with the War Lord(building TARDISes rather than SIDRATs), but was erased from history by the Time Lords. The war Chief presumably took up with the War Lord at a totally different time to Magnus, since from a purely in-universe, narrative perspectice they can't possibly be the same person. 41.133.0.18talk to me 16:03, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's a pretty obvious implication as my above citation proves. The above quotes from Divided Loyalties proves pretty well that Magnus is the War Chief and isn't the Master. It describes both The Dark Path and The War Games to a tee.
 * Reading the information from Divided Loyalties in context with other Doctor Who stories the only reading of them reveals that they are from and about the events of The Dark Path and The War Games.
 * Your "take" on it involves ignoring these stories and viewing Divided Loyalties in isolation, which it does not exist in. It is part of a greater series.
 * The myth can be removed from The War Games article, that isn't a huge issue.
 * Now, to be clear I did not state anything about the FASA game. I stated that The War Games articles currently states it. --Tangerineduel / talk 17:07, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Er, my point was that it doesn't describe the War games to a tee. Quite the opposite, in fact. besides Magnus(whoever he is) working for the War Lord(whose description in Divided Loyalties is nothing like the War Lord in the War Games) everything else is different. Significantly:

1)It is never stated in Divided Loyalties that Magnus is the War Chief. Your reasoning for not counting the Flashback Magnus as the Master was that it never explicitly states that to be the case. it is merely implied. And you stated that real -world behind-the-scenes things don't count, it must be in-universe narrative. And in-universe narrative it is NOT stated that Magnus is the War Chief. Please show me where in Divided Loyalties the words "War Chief" are used. I can't find them.

2)The Magnus who appears in Divided Loyalties has a totally different set of adventures with the War Lord(assuming it even is the same War Lord) to the War Chief in the War Games. Building TARDISes rather than SIDRATs, having a paranoid War Lord, organising multiple war games. And, by far the most important, being erased from ever having existed by the Time Lords at the end of this.

3)Clearly that's not the War Chief, as he survived HIS War Games, and went on to work with Hitler under an assumed name(Timewyrm:Exodus). HE wasn't erased from ever having existed. And nowehere in Timewyrm:Exodus is the name "Magnus" ever used. or the word "Deca". In fact, nowhere in the War Games are the words "Magnus" or "Deca" used either.

4)In the Flashback comic, the Doctor states that that incident was the last ever chance for reconcilliation between the Doctor and Magnus. Why? Because Magnus was erased from ever having existed not long after. Gary Russell was the Editor of Flashback, and the writer of Divided Loyalties. So he had control over both of Magnus' appearances. And he wrote a character with a totally different history to the War Chief. And again, it can't be retroactive continuity, because Divded Loyalties came out AFTER Timewyrm:Exodus.

Thus, Magnus can not possibly be the War Chief. Not the original thing I set out to show, but using this wiki's own rules, there is no other conclusion. 17:27, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pure and simple speculation. 170.185.224.19talk to me 18:36, November 7, 2012 (UTC)