Howling:Two "fixed deaths" for the eleventh, how does that make any sense ?

Greetings! First of all, I apologise for my english (not my native language), but I will do my best, and I thank you by advance for your patience. I'm quite a slow mind, and since I am not a huge fan of Moffat's era, I have difficulties to "stay hooked" to his stories; nonetheless, I have been watching series 6 and 7 again and again, trying to understand more about the "Silence's plans". In fact, several things don't seem to have any sense to me, so I have been searching for explanations here but in vain:

1. How could the Silence create another fixed point in time where the doctor dies? If Trenzalore is the place he must perish, I don't understand why they even tried to change that fact: by trying to alter the "Trenzalore fixed point", Time should have been desintegrated the same way it had been when River Song refused to "kill" the Doctor near the Lake in "the Wedding of River Song".

2. Beside the fact that the Teselact faked an attempt of Regeneration (which doesn't seem very consistant from my point of view), how faking his death change a fixed point? If time is desintegrating because he doesn't die, how could it possibly be different after he still doesn't die but only fake his death?

3. Unless the fixed point (22 April 2011, 5:02pm) was not about the death of the Doctor but the fact that people must believe he's dead, and even that way, how the Silence, which knows about Trenzalore, can be deceived?

4. I'm not found of the "time can be rewritten" magical trick which is hammered so many times during Moffat's era, but assuming it's a fact: if the Doctor really died near the Lake Silencio, Trenzalore time and facts should have been rewritten as well, or am I getting wrong on all this? If I'm right, the Silence should have noticed it and known that they failed in their attempt to kill the Doctor earlier. As you see, I'm so very lost in all this wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff, and I don't find consistant answers or even satisfying interpretations of those stories, concepts and facts that just seem to contradict themselves from my point of view.

Tepec ☎  12:33, November 5, 2013 (UTC) Tepec

Welcome, first your English seems fine. The only thing that might arguably be making your writing confused is that you are confused. So while I'm not sure I understand everything you say, or if you do either, I will try my best to respond to your concerns and hopefully others may come and improve or them.

The first thing that you need to understand is that "wibbly-wobbley, timey-wimey" is Steven Moffat shorthand for "what I say goes." Just bear that in mind.

1. No one has ever claimed that the Doctor's death of Trenzalore was a fixed point, there is an implication it became one when the Doctor went there and found his grave because apparently finding your grave does that, but up until that point the suggestion is that The Silence could have created a new death and new grave for the Doctor. Or at least believed they could.

2. That would depend on what a fixed point is and how it works, I have seem several explanations for that and have my own and not all are mutually exclusive, but alas the show is silent or, at best, vague on the matter, one of those "what I say goes" things.

3. How can "the Silence" be deceived? Well ultimately they can't because eventually the Doctor will go to Trenzalore and answer the question and they'll presumably know about it then. But at the moment we know so little about the Silence and they may not be able to see past their own involvement that again that question is impossible to answer.

4. Yeah, again if the Silence can't see past the consequences of their own actions how would they know what's a change and what's a paradox? They can't, whenever the Doctor shows up they think it's just a pre death event. They believe his death is a fixed point and believe his death occurred. Because of the "false regeneration" thing he made it look very convincing. Because there is no actual way a fixed point can be escaped the Doctor must be dead. The Silence just can't see how he could have cheated.

Steven Moffat has come under a lot of fire recently for not resolving his plots and this has often seemed valid.

Then I rewatched "The Beast Below" yesterday. Two pieces of dialogue, before TARDIS explosions or The Silence or Trenzalore that very strongly suggests Steven Moffat always knew where he was going. It can help restore your faith.DCT ☎  13:48, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

→ Thank you for your answer(s), some elements you point are very helpful to me!

1. I thought Trenzalore was a fixed point since the Doctor seems to think that way from my point of view. Moreover, I thought that, when he says that a Time traveller must never go where and when his grave is located is because... Well, because any "trip" that leads him there could be the one when he dies: I mean, people told him he should die there, which implies he must go there first and die once he is there; consequently, as long as the Doctor doesn't go to Trenzalore, he simply can't die. And that's what he does: simply not go there until the Great Intelligence sort of "force him". But in "The Name of the Doctor", there is another problem: the Doctor arrives on Trenzalore after his own death, meaning he's crossing his timeline and make the TARDIS crossing her own, too. From my opinion, going where you are going to die and crossing your own timeline are two different problems, and perhaps they could not be necessarily related. If the Doctor had travelled to Trenzalore before the events leading to his death, I don't see how it would have been a huge problem for the universe: he will have to do that to die (from what we know now).

2. You are right on this: the show only gives us that some events or facts are fixed in time: it gives us sometimes (Father's Day, the Wedding of River Song) indications on what can happen if something try to interfere with it, but it doesn't explain how fixed points in time are fixed(!). The only recent indication I remember is during "The Impossible Astronaut" I think, the Doctor says that the 1969 is "an easy year" (contrary to some others), and I'll have to check, but possibly in "Day of the Moon", he says something about creating a fixed point is easier during easy years. Is there other indications I missed about that?

3. and 4. I like your idea that the Silence can't see the effects of what it tries to do, and I like even more the idea that the Silence could think every intervention of the Doctor is a pre-death event. It could lead them to keep persecuting him everywhere in his timeline, and it could lead the viewer to become a bit paranoid: "what if the TARDIS explosion was a desperate attempt from the Silence, or maybe not the TARDIS explosion but at least the Pandorica, leading all those villains to make an impossible alliance; and what if the Silence whispered to the Great Intelligence to destroy the Doctor", and so on? I like that, even if for now it's not tangible.

And I'll had a point 5 to the discussion, with what you wrote about Moffat knowing where he's going: I have no doubt about the fact that Moffat has a "Masterplan", and I'm not criticizing the quality of what he's doing as the showrunner. It's obvious with the "TARDIS console-like" stuff we saw at least twice ("The Lodger" and "The Impossible Astronaut"), the fact that River Song says in the Pandorica Opens that it's like someone had taken the controle of the TARDIS just before it explodes, the "Silence will fall" that we hear for quite a long time now, and so on, that Moffat wants to do something big and he is just "placing his pawns on the big chessboard". Step by step, we are coming closer to the solution of all this. I'm just a bit skeptical about that he had planned everything since the beginning, and since every "pawn" he places is "huge" rather "subtle", it will be hard to keep something fully consistant. My personal opinion is that it's like when RTD started to use "Torchwood" in Doctor Who first series (during the weakest link thing at least!), or the drummings in the Master's mind since series 3: surely RTD wanted to do something with that, but was he already 100% sure about how he would use it later? Once again thank you for your time! Tepec ☎  16:54, November 5, 2013 (UTC) Tepec

Thank you. To continue then.

1.You are certainly correct that crossing your own time line and going to where you are going to die are different issues but personally I thought The Name Of The Doctor made pretty clear that where the Doctor should never go is anywhere where they might bump into their grave as this would make their death a fixed point. This is shown categorically in The Angels Take Manhattan (what I say goes) and touched on in The Snowmen when Clara walks past the grave of her Victorian incarnation. What made the Doctor believe Trenzalore was his grave is unclear as Dorium never mentioned that part he just said the Silence wished to stop the Doctor getting there. More on this later, perhaps.

2.Father's Day doesn't involve any fixed points. If it had the Doctor would never have allowed Rose to change anything. Remember the Doctor claims he can "see" fixed points (The Fires Of Pompeii) however he also seems to decide fixed points are arbitrary contingents set by the Time Lords (The Waters Of Mars). The events in Father's Day were caused by Rose crossing her own timeline and then changing the past. Weakened time allowed the Reapers through to feed on the paradox. I don't remember anything about creating fixed points in Day Of The Moon. Dorium said that it's easier creating fixed point from still points in The Wedding Of River Song but that's it.

3/4.It's not really an "idea". It's a conclusion you reach if you consider the Silence to be as limited as everyone else in how they observe cause and effect. However I have also read that the Silence are both telepathic and transcendental, though neither of these is confirmed in the show but the first seems very likely. On show evidence they also seem to be telekinetic. I think there's a good chance the Silence manipulated the TARDIS explosion so they could manipulate the Doctor into the Pandorica but messed up because they were unaware River could pilot the TARDIS. I'm less sure they had any dealings with the GI because of what the GI is. The idea the Silence where manipulating that too who was in turn manipulating Walter Simeon seems too convoluted.

5.Obviously I don't believe he had everything planned and I gather he would have expected that even things he had planned may have to be changed. That would be wise. But he had an idea surrounding particular details, the promise of a name, the fact the Doctor is running from something. Lots of things based around the mystery of the character. Series arcs were perhaps less planned. But as you say there could well be a mix of the obvious and the subtle, though as I observed when I watched The Beast Below again often subtle things are only subtle because you haven't been given the key to their meaning. I only recognize they now because I watching in the light of Name... Did RTD know he was going to create a Torchwood spin off when he wrote Bad Wolf. Possibly not, but he definitely knew there was going to be a Torchwood arc in Season 2. There's a good chance he knew he at least planned the spin off because Jack Harkness still has an unresolved hole in his memory, it seems which you'd have thought he intended to resolve or he wouldn't have kept in in Steven's script. Did he know Jack Harkness was The Face Of Boe when he introduced said character in The End Of The World? Again not sure but there's a good chance of it and her certainly knew he wanted to do something with it when he wrote New Earth.

We know so much now. After The Name Of The Doctor went out it immediately triggered a debate on whether or not the prophecy had been resolved. It was certainly meant to seem that way. Apart from the stained cues Dorium asks the question three times, so does the GI. But on consideration the answer is, no. The question is related to whatever the Doctor has been running from all his life. That does sit well with the idea that he was worried that one day someone would learn his name, break into his tomb and undermine his life. If he wants to prevent that he should stay home or not die. Going to his death is a very silly way to protect his tomb, it's inaccessible as long as he lives. No the question is "Doctor Who?" but the answer he wants to keep isn't his name. This is what he means when he says "my real name, that's not the point.", it never was the point. The secret he is trying to keep, the answer he doesn't want to give, is the identity of the secret incarnation. Or else Steven Moffat's story is very logically joined up.DCT ☎  14:11, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

→ Oh! Things like Father's Day or the Angels take Manhattan are unclear in my memories, I need to watch them again. Thank you (once again) for that!

1. "What made the Doctor believe Trenzalore was his grave is unclear" => he understood that the prophecy was about his death in the Wedding of River Song, when he explains to Churchill what "Silence will fall" means (his own silence). Other than that, You're right as it's unclear how he knows the prophecy is more than just words saying "the Doctor must die".

2. I need to watch all of this again, since I think I am confuse about fixed points/paradoxes/"weakened time".

About your last words: for me, the answer of "Doctor who?" was given by River Song, but the question is not the prophecy, it is at best only a part of it: the prophecy isn't "doctor who?" but "the question 'doctor who?' must never be answered on Trenzalore at the fall of the Eleventh". So for now, the remaining question is nomore "doctor who?" but "why this answer must never be answered, what happens if it is?", because River did answered, and the prophecy sort of "failed". And then yes, the prophecy could be related to the fact that, when the question is answered, the thing the Doctor has been running from all his life happens and is bad for everyone. (and that's why I'm not found of Steven Moffat's style: all the "Whouniverse" seems to be in orbit around the Doctor, the individual, whereas I prefered when I had the feeling that the universe was a dynamic thing in which the Doctor only participates (that, and believable/endearing companions)) Tepec ☎  08:29, November 7, 2013 (UTC)Tepec

No worries. Father's Day in particular was unclear in my memory until I decided to do my recap session. Until then I could read all sorts of comments here and have no idea what people were saying. Anything past Flesh And Stone I'm still a bit lost though obviously more recent is easier.

1.You've misunderstood what "Silence Will Fall" was understood to mean. It was taken, by the Doctor and Dorium as the requirement to kill the Doctor before he reached Trenzalore, thus putting his grave somewhere near Lake Silencio. It doesn't speak directly to what the Doctor might find there, nothing does until The Name Of The Doctor.

2.Everyone is confused about fixed time and paradoxes. Mainly paradoxes, that's why they're paradoxes.

OK, River answered Doctor Simeon's question which as phrased first was "what is your name?" That was what he wanted to know, the key to the tomb. He also asked "Doctor who?" three times because informal language takes them as the same question but they're not. In Hide the Doctor is rather put out when he is asked Doctor, what because it's not the question but it is grammatically correct. Simeon asks "what is your name?" He doesn't ask "who is your name?" that wouldn't be correct because "who?" is actually a different question to "what?" They're not really interchangeable. No one cares about this in casual conversation but if you're in a position "where no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" (something we have not yet seen) then it becomes a bit more important because the answer is true as long as it is equal to the question but the Doctor's name isn't.

Again at the end the Doctor spelled it out using Clara as, to borrow a phrase from a member this idea was discussed with, audience surrogate. He tells her directly "My real name that's not the point. He is my secret" By the time he utters the last sentence Clara has fainted so it is entirely for our benefit, she doesn't hear it. Usually I hate it when shows do that but this works because the Doctor feels compelled to finish what he is saying. This is the point, Steven Moffat uses this opportunity to break the lie he was telling by evasion. He never said the Doctor's greatest secret was his name he just allowed us to assume it a dropped little signposts in that direction. It wasn't actually true.

Remember also Moffat's position is that the whoniverse was always in orbit around the Doctor, around his enigma and then they gave too much away and lost it. He believes he's restoring order.DCT ☎  14:14, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

→ I had a hard time trying to understand what you meant..! But, to resume:

- all the stuff about the Silence is not really related to what we see in the episode "The Name of the Doctor"; the fact that "Silence must fall before the Doctor reaches Trenzalore" is related to the Doctor's "future" travel to Trenzalore, the one during which he dies, not the one we saw. So the prophecy isn't accomplished on that aspect.

- my first question was about the two deaths I interpreted as "fixed points", but the one on Trenzalore wasn't fixed until the Doctor "fixed it" by crossing his own timeline to his tomb. It seems more logical in my mind now, because the prophecy never said that the Doctor dies at Trenzalore, only that "the eleventh falls", and the death on Trenzalore become a fixed point only after the Silence tried to kill him before he crosses his own timeline and make his death on Trenzalore a fixed point (on his own timeline).

- Moreover, the question that should never been asked is not "what is your name, Doctor?", but "Who are you, Doctor?" from your opinion, implying that the "who are you?" means "who is this guy you were but who broke the promise of your title?". This is so far-stretched from my point of view, but I assume it's partly due to the -grammatical- fact that "doctor who?" can't be translated into a proper question in French. It's like you want to ask someone "what is your favorite colour gradient?" but ask only "What colour?": there's merely no chance the answer can be answered correctly, because the question isn't correct itself.

- Finally, the Prophecy isn't fulfilled at all since the situation "where no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" has not been encountered yet.

Once again, thank you for all those explanations! Tepec ☎  07:42, November 8, 2013 (UTC)Tepec

Yeah, I had a hard time writing it too, it's a complicated idea but you seem to have got the main points.

In one sence what happens on Trenzalore is very connected to the Silence because they are prepared to crete a fixed point death for him on Earth to stop him ever getting there. So much do they fear the event.

The prophecy certainly only says that the eleventh falls (which may still not mean the obvious) but the fact his grave is there to be found means that that is the outcome if events unfold as the currently are... the Doctor's death. Or else he'd just regenerate and leave.

You seem to have read by understanding of what the question means correctly. Taken to the fullest if the Doctor's name is a promise at minimum answering the question truthfully woiuld mean explaining the promise. Which could, yes, easily lead to explaining how it was once broken.

And, yes, we both agree the prophecy is not yet met. Some think it is.DCT ☎  12:54, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Well technically in The Name of The Doctor at Trenzalore when The Doctor jumped into his own timestream, he did die (It rips apart whatever jumps into it, just as it did the GI), so that fixed point is fulfilled, he has died at Trenzalore in that very spot. Now how he is going to escape that death? We will have to wait & see. --Holyguyver ☎  11:26, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

We don't need to talk technicalities. In TNOTD the Doctor's death on Trenzalore is an event in the history of the planet, that is why his grave is there and why his time stream is present for him to jump into. But we haven't seen that event.DCT ☎  16:58, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

It's important to understand that fixed-points used in this manner rely strongly on evidence. When the Silence witnessed the Doctor's "death" at Lake Silencio, when the Doctor saw his own grave on Trenzalore, and when Eleven saw Amy and Rory's grave, fixed points will indeed have been created in each case.

However, fixed points like these don't always require a death. All they require is that the evidence that is seen, and the ramifications thereof, must always happen.

The Doctor found a third option in the Lake scenario by ensuring that all gathered parties witnessed what they genuinely believed to be the Doctor's death. The fixed point in that scenario was their belief of his death and not his death itself.

The gravestones of Amy, Rory and the Doctor are also flimsy - the only thing that we know for definite is fixed right now is that the gravestones (and the Doctor's tomb) must always be there, to be seen by themselves in the future. In these cases we (and the TARDIS crew) haven't see either Amy, Rory or the Doctor's actual deaths, and neither has anyone seen an actual body.

Had the Doctor dug-up Amy & Rory's grave, he would have either found a body (thereby fixing Amy & Rory's fates) or an empty casket. The Doctor's tomb was definitely empty as well. Where was the body? All we've seen is the empty husk of the TARDIS, and the time stream that's present inside could well belong to the TARDIS itself and not the Doctor.

So Amy & Rory could technically return, without altering the fixed point, just as long as they ensured a bogus gravestone was set-up for them. The Doctor could also set up the TARDIS to impersonate the tomb for a couple of centuries to coincide with his first trip to Trenzalore, before reverting back to it's usual form and returning to the Doctor.Darren.pobatti ☎  16:32, November 16, 2013 (UTC)