Forum:Real world franchises with DWU connections: Qualification speedround

Introduction
Simply put: deciding what franchises qualify for our ever-growing collection of pages that connect with the DWU in some form or another, as it's not always immediately apparent.

To start with:
 * Every franchise that appears in Funko Pop! Blitz. A couple of months back, somebody went to that sizeable list of represented franchises at the bottom of the page there, and turned each one into an inactive link, with the clear intention for franchise pages to be created. …I went in and removed the links. The thing is, I'm not entirely sure if it counts as a crossover, when the full extent of their connection to Doctor Who is "characters from this franchise and Doctor Who sometimes appear on the game board at the same time"


 * LEGO Dimensions franchises that don't appear with DW elements in any narrative elements. Do we really need a page for, let's say, The Powerpuff Girls, on the basis that "the Doctor and the Cyberman are among the dozens and dozens of characters you can play as while visiting Townsville"?


 * Shrek. This one actually already has a page, as you can see, I'm not 100% sure if it actually qualifies due to a unique grey area that's presented: Shrek was involved in BBC One's 2012 Christmas campaign, It's Showtime. Now, in terms of the campaign as a whole, Shrek himself does appear in one of the idents, suggesting a licensing agreement that makes this an official usage. But when it comes to the promo, the thing that we actually cover due its usage of DW elements, Shrek's appearance is only implied; he's presented as apparently being inside a trailer at the BBC studio, where he shoots a large blob of green snot from offscreen. Would you say that counts as an "appearance"?


 * The aforementioned campaign brings up a similar question in regard to Disney and Pixar's Up. It's an "official" part of the campaign via one of the idents (Carl's house is seen flying past the screen), but its only usage in the actual promo is the appearance of a bunch of live action balloons that are only said to be from Up.

… On a semi-related note: we need to standardise what the dab term should be. I myself am guilty of not being consistent in that regard, alternating between "series" and "franchise". But we should probably pick one to stick with.

WaltK ☎  22:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion
I think the "franchise" pages are overwhelmingly harmless. If you have a favorite series, you can type it into our site and find a quick real world article discussing its "connections" to Doctor Who. Thus, I don't think it's a big deal if we have these pages on every LEGO Dimensions series or every FUNKO Blatz whatever.

I would, however, like to bring up another topic: implicit crossovers on comic covers. This has been pretty much ignored due to us not "covering" covers as fiction per se. But look at something like TV Comic Annual 1967 or the TV Comic Holiday Special, 1965. These are very much crossovers in terms of art, and I think they are just as worthy of being documented.

Another important thing to bring up is that when it comes to franchises and series from the past, sometimes it's important we have a page explaining their existence because no other guide exists online. A quick Google of TV Terrors will turn up few useful results! I'm not saying we should cover TV Terrors content, but obviously having that page discussing what the series was would help explain the crossover to some users. OS25🤙☎️ 00:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * It's worth noting that in the It's Showtime promo, Shrek's voice can actually be heard saying "Oh, sorry" after he sneezes. Cgl1999 ☎  07:27, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Personally, I see LEGO Dimensions and Funko Pop! Blitz quite differently: with LEGO Dimensions, an honest attempt is made to have the characters and elements have unique interactions with each other, while Funko Pop! Blitz is a bit closer to Fortnite-ish crossovers (and I don't really thing an overview of John Wick is particularly necessary on this site). With LEGO Dimensions, I feel like all franchises featured are relevant, but ones without DWU interactions should perhaps be saved for an eventual debate on the game's validity/coverage. Cookieboy 2005 ☎  10:40, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I think that's fair, and it is worth saying that we might see Doctor Who in Fortnite some day, so the comparison is quite relevant. In this case, I'd say that we shouldn't make pages for franchises that are only in the Funko thing, but if a page exists already it's fair game. OS25🤙☎️ 19:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * You are aware that Doctor Who already has its own island in Fortnite, right? Cgl1999 ☎  21:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * And in a much less official capacity than a real collab would lend it. It's the difference between the BBC having a character pack with Little Big World and the BBC simply publishing a Little Big Planet level as if they were a user. The island in question was not an official Epic Games collaboration. Your minor correction is noted but doesn't continue the discussion. OS25🤙☎️ 23:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry. Cgl1999 ☎  05:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC)


 * (to be fair, they did also release a TARDIS spray, which most users can't do, but that's still minor) Cookieboy 2005 ☎  14:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with OS25 when he says these types of pages are mostly harmless. He suggests the cover crossovers have not been documented due to the former rules about non-narratives and I believe this to be correct; as far I'm aware such series do deserve Category:Real world media with DWU connections articles under current policy and it is simply down how recent the Rule 1 change was that nobody has done it yet. This is absolutely true with the specific example of TV Terrors (series), which deserved a page ever since the creation of TV Terrors (TVC 709 comic story) back in April 2021 and only got one earlier today.

To address the specific stuff mentioned in the OP: Borisashton ☎  22:01, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go with a "no" on pages for every series featured in Funko Pop! Blitz. I played the first couple of levels to have some input in this thread and to be honest I wouldn't even call it a "crossover" with regards to the Talk:Vienna (series) precedent. The different IPs don't really interact with each other and as far as I call tell there are no genuine Doctor Who universe characters featured. I picked River Song and she was referred to by the character leading me through the tutorial as a "Pop" not as a 'real' person. The game itself obviously deserves a page for its licensed use of Who imagery but much more than that and I think we'd be at risk of over-covering it.
 * On the other hand, LEGO Dimensions is a multiversal adventure where characters from different series do share proper interactions with each other. There's also the matter of the supplementary webcasts to consider (e.g. Doctor, Doctor, Doctor, Endless Awesome and New Adventures Await!) which are more self-contained and warrant the creation of pages for a good portion of the series in question anyway. On that basis I'd say "yes" but I understand if we maybe want to hold off on this until after the eventual LEGO Dimensions inclusion debate which is in the process of being drafted.
 * With Shrek and Up, sure why not? It's Showtime is definitely a crossover and elements (if only minor) from both appear.


 * I agree with Boris' anaysis and the overall sentiment that franchise pages are unobjectionable. Maybe the IPs from Funko Pop! Blitz like Hellboy (series) could be redirected to Funko Pop! Blitz (video game) for findability purposes. – n8 (☎) 14:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I suppose, although the only issue would be if another similar game also featured Hellboy alongside Doctor Who. Cookieboy 2005 ☎  11:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree mostly with Boris sentiments however. I feel The pop game could be treated the same way we cover games like Basil Brush goes Rent Collecting (game) and TV Comic's Counter Game (game)]]which from what I have read seems to have some level of similarity (only in the way the crossover happens not in actual game play or physicality). And thus the franchises could get pages? Do the crossovers happen in a similar way? Anastasia Cousins ☎  18:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think they're really all too similar. Those games have a specific character or group going through a series of potential events, including Doctor Who ones, while FP!B is... barely even a fictional narrative honestly; it's been a fair bit since I've played it but it's much closer to something like Fortnite in my opinion, as I said earlier. Cookieboy 2005 ☎  21:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * As Cookieboy says, the TV Comic games are not really comparable to Funko Pop in my view. Something like Basil Brush goes Rent Collecting has a story behind it and places the crossovery characters within that framing. If Mighty Moth or Popeye decided to follow the path to King Arthur's castle they would encounter the TARDIS on their journey, for example. On the other hand, my limited playtime with Funko Pop gave me no suggestion that the different IPs were on the same plane of existence, no indication they could truly "cross over" with one another.


 * It's why I said earlier I didn't think it even constituted a crossover of the sort that Talk:Vienna (series) speaks of. To phrase it another way, I don't believe Funko Pop! Blitz is a source you could cite in-universe events to. It deserves a page for licensed use of visual Doctor Who elements but it's much more similar from a Who perspective to a piece of merchandise than most of its (video game) brothers and sisters. Monopoly: Doctor Who Collector's Edition or Top Trumps: Doctor Who is a more apt comparison versus games like Legacy or Infinity. Borisashton ☎  00:14, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Our coverage debate on Inside Family Guy has concluded, with only one loose end to tie up; Family Guy (series) - should it stay or go? I'm personally edging very much toward "go". WaltK ☎  19:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Go. A mention in a BBC source and Tennant's return isn't enough to qualify. Aquanafrahudy   📢   19:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

So, do we actually include franchises that have had unlicensed crossovers? As that's what the existence of our page for Buffy the Vampire Slayer (franchise) seems to imply. WaltK ☎  16:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I shouldn't think so, no. Aquanafrahudy   📢   17:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Then why do we have the page? WaltK ☎  18:46, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Presumably as both franchises have referenced each other "enough", and cast/crew connections. (I can think of something similar, but maybe we should wait for more references in DWU media first) Also, The Avengers originally existed primarily for strong cast & crew connections prior to official crossovers being found, and Spaced... sure is a page that exists. Cookieboy 2005 ☎  22:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I was intending to bring this matter up in a separate forum thread as this one was labelled a "speedround" but we can discuss it here. The issue is simple: while Talk:Vienna (series) gives us a clear method to determine which series deserve pages based on their in-universe connections, there is no established consensus on where to draw the line for series relevant to Doctor Who for purely out-of-universe reasons.

I feel a bit like a broken record in these recent discussions but once again it's my opinion that there can be no universal standard, only guidance to be applied on a case-by-case basis. As Cookieboy alludes to above there really aren't that many examples these days as we've found crossovers for most of the series which originally fitted this brief but here are some of the remaining examples, grouped together by similarity:


 * Pebble Mill at One and Points of View: both BBC non-fiction programmes which have broached the topic of Doctor Who at some time or other. Although not examples of an in-universe crossover, both shows have had clips and snippets released on multiple Who DVDs so are definitely worthy of pages in my view, for the same reasons I expressed at Forum:BBC-produced shows and episodes that make extensive use of DWU elements.
 * Pathfinders in Space and Buffy the Vampire Slayer: both shows which served as inspirations for Doctor Who or one of its spin-offs. I think these should stay as well, for their historical significance. A rigorously sourced analysis of the impact these kinds of shows had on Doctor Who is a useful thing for the Wiki to have. The Buffy article notes several sources in its lede for being a big inspiration but then goes on to spend a lot of its time listing minor references the two series have exchanged with each other. This is okay information to have somewhere in the article but I think its primary focus should be readjusted to its effect on NuWho and Torchwood if it is to stay.
 * Born and Bred and Sea of Souls: both programmes which prominent Doctor Who production figures helmed before becoming involved in the franchise. Both articles could do with some expansion and the addition of sources (if they exist) detailing how these earlier works helped to influence and shape the Doctor Who universe tenures (in this case Chris Chibnall and Phil Collinson) of those involved, but ultimately I think they're good pages to have.
 * Wizards vs Aliens: the show created by Russell T Davies and Phil Ford to fill the gap left by the unexpected conclusion of The Sarah Jane Adventures. As a result there are production connections a plenty, most notably with the unused SJA story The Thirteenth Floor being reworked as a Wizards vs Aliens episode. It's definitely worthy of an article here; there's Who DNA everywhere.
 * Outlander: a novel series (later adapted for TV) in which the main character was heavily inspired by the companion Jamie McCrimmon. There was no shared creative force behind the original books, the author never having written for the Doctor Who universe, so I'd delete it if not for the television series, which is probably long-running and successful enough to be noteworthy. It's definitely an edge-case for me, though.
 * Spaced: our article for this one seems to use the thematic ties and shared cast and crew of the audio story Invaders from Mars as its reason for existing. In contrast to my reasoning for Born and Bred and Sea of Souls above, which affected entire eras of the show, I do not think significant influence on a single story (plus a few shared guest stars elsewhere) is sufficient for a article here.

There are many, many shows which could be edge-cases here that we don't currently have articles for. I really don't know where to draw the line here but hopefuly my musings have helped a little to clarify a few of our options. Borisashton ☎  23:25, 18 September 2023 (UTC)