Talk:The Master (The Destination Wars)

Rename
Sure, move this to the Inventor Master. I am 100% okay with this, but I have no interest in making the opening post. Let those who have strong feelings against strike me down! NoNotTheMemes ☎  05:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Also agree with moving it to Inventor, as he's only ever referred to as "The Inventor" on other places in the wiki, really. Only issue i see is: Are they ever called the "Inventor Master", or should this page be at "The Inventor"? i don't really mind which, but worth discussing. Cousin Ettolrhc ☎


 * How bout MasTERF?

I didn't want to get involved in this discussion, but it seems like we're on the cusp of setting a risky precedent here: unlike the Saxon Master, whose identity as Harold Saxon is referenced in every single one of his appearances, "inventor" is a discarded alias; in his subsequent appearances he's only called "the Master". The same thought process that leads us to Inventor Master would also lead us to absurdities like Keller Master or The UnBruce.

So unfortunately I have to bring up the fact that the publisher has clearly given him a name: First Master.

"David Richardson explains: “I knew I wanted our scripts to be very authentic to season one of Doctor Who, and that meant having two stories that were sci-fi, and two that were historical. Guy Adams and Andrew Smith pitched ideas that were irresistible – a story about the samurai, and a tale set during the 19th century blizzard in New York: I proposed we introduce the First Master too.”"

- Vortex 106

"And on Saturday, with more Master-ly news, we interviewed James Dreyfus, who plays the first Master in The First Doctor Adventures."

- The Big Finish Roundup

""and with news that Dreyfus’ First Master will be in upcoming Big Finish releases, I can’t wait to hear him again...""

- Official release announcement for The First Doctor Adventures 1

(I recall that there were more statements on Twitter, but understandably Big Finish has scrubbed all mention of Dreyfus from its account.)

Despite there being clear evidence that the First Doctor is neither the Doctor's first incarnation nor the first incarnation to call himself the Doctor, we've always deferred to the BBC's official branding in calling Hartnell's incarnation First Doctor. In cases where no official name has been given, it makes sense to weigh our own invented options, but this just isn't one of those cases. At minimum, the null hypothesis in this discussion should clearly be First Master. – n8 (☎) 15:53, 6 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'd heard he was originally planned as the first Master, but I never realised they actually gave him full-blown proper-name status. In that case, he should absolutely be moved to First Master - it's demonstrably the only official name the character has ever been given. (Though I would probably resist any conflation of Dreyfus with the William Hughes or Milo Parker versions, at least for now, and say that the lead should also emphasise the Fourth Doctor's guess that he was in his "second or third regeneration".) PintlessMan ☎  17:35, 6 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, I definitely agree with that parenthetical coverage note. First Doctor demonstrates that "First X" could have many possible meanings besides incarnation count. – n8 (☎) 17:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I feel its worth noting for this discussion that John Dorney, who script edited this Master's appearances in The Destination Wars, The Home Guard and Blood of the Time Lords, has been adamant for years on the Divergent Universe Forum that this incarnation is not the "First Master". I'll quote from specific posts (to see full context follow the links). Firstly, the earliest example I could find of him addressing this was in 2018:

"Oh, I’m not denying that it was mentioned in the marketing. But as far as I’m aware, that’s the only place it’s mentioned. There’s certainly nothing been made of it in any of the scripts. (If anything, it’s contradicted)."

- John Dorney on the Divergent Univsrse forum 30/11/2018

Dorney elaborated further in a different thread in 2019-

"Thing is, I do absolutely understand why people think it’s the first Master. It’s something that often happens with stories - people go with the information they get quite early on (the two stories of mine I think people get wrong are Iceni - which isn’t a ‘you can’t change history’ story - and Assassination Games - which isn’t a C-M story more than a Who, for just this reason: opinions made in the first few minutes), so the press release seems to trump the actual content of the audios in question. I’m just saying I’m not really sure where that marketing spiel came from. I suspect it may just have been an assumption or the wrong end of the stick from the marketing department. That’s definitely happened! And as I’ve said elsewhere - he still could be, don’t get me wrong. But if there hasn’t been much made of him as ‘the first Master’ there’s a reason for that."

- John Dorney on the Divergent Universe forum 22/12/2019

When later pressed in 2021 on David Richardson seemingly suggesting this was the first incarnation of the Master in an interview in the behind the scenes of the first set of 1DAs, Dorney noted-

"Depends when the interview was done, really, and whether if that had become the consensus from the outside at that point it was easier to go with it. Certainly, no one ever said the word ‘first’ to me, and I’d have had to tweak the dialogue of at least one of the scripts if they had."

- John Dorney on the Divergent Universe forum 27/04/2021

So there's clearly not a united front of opinion on this issue even within Big Finish creatives who created this incarnation. I'm not sure what the best solution here is, but I'd be resistent to proclaim him the First Master when someone who worked on most of the scripts featuring him has been consistently and publicly saying to the contrary. Just my two cents. SherlockTheII ☎  18:16, 6 March 2023 (UTC)


 * In the same thread, Dorney also says "As an aside - it’s worth mentioning that ‘first’ is ambiguous. Is that first incarnation, first to call himself Master or first the Doctor meets in continuity," which seems to line up well with n8's reasoning above. PintlessMan ☎  18:29, 6 March 2023 (UTC)


 * That's fair. My only concern would be readers making the (not unreasonable) First = confirmed first incarnation assumption, especially when this incarnation is linked on other pages where context might be lost. SherlockTheII ☎  18:51, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Is "Early Master" too vague? Could cover more options with that, even though it's not used as a 'name'. Failing that, I think n8 has given sound reasoning as to why "First Master" works, along with information on the page explaining some of the contradictions and that "First" doesn't necessarily have to mean the literal first either. Fractal Doctor ☎  19:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I think it's also worth noting that it seems highly unlikely Dreyfus will be hired by Big Finish ever again, so at least there'll be a cut off for his incarnation which should make it easier to 'contain' with explanations and information. (Unless they recast his specific incarnation, of course, and make explicit where he slots into the timeline. Or I guess they could somehow retcon him going forward, which would be a bridge to cross at a future time.) Fractal Doctor ☎  19:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I feel it's also worth noting that the first story that was produced, written, and recorded with the Dreyfus Master has him as his third or fourth incarnation. What's more, that story was released LAST, so the mention could have been edited out if that was what they were actually going with. Feels very much to be a miscommunication with David Richardson more than anything else. I am in no way attached to "Inventor" Master, hence the rather lax opening post. I am perfectly comfortable leaving him at the story name. More importantly, however, marketing also specifically identifies the Milo Parker incarnation as the "First Master" (and marketing that comes from the mouth of the writer of his story, no less). Naming them both First Master would be confusing, particularly given that one of the incarnations is identified otherwise. The only appeal of "Inventor" Master was that it is relatively well-used outside of the Wiki. NoNotTheMemes ☎  16:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh, also, I *do* think we should make explicit mention of him being referenced as the First Master in that interview in the BTS section. NoNotTheMemes ☎  16:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I am against the First Master naming. As stated by other users here, the actual stories he's in contradict the idea of him being the first Master - Blood of the Timelords indicates he's the second or third incarnation, whilst also simultaneously has it be a core part of the plot that the Doctor and the Master changed history so that those names would always be their names. Parker's Master, who refers to themselves as Master in Masterful, also has been referred to as the First Master in certain interviews, so here we have two separate versions of the character being referred to with the same name, despite the stories indicating that they're different lives - they can't both be the First Master.

On an additional note, I do feel that the First Master not being the first would be confusing for casual readers - I think trying to use the precedent with the Doctor doesn't work - the Doctor is somewhat of a special case, and I don't think the fact they've got pre-First Doctor lives can be used to justify calling the third or fourth incarnation of the Master "The First", even if they were the first to leave Gallifrey. It'd just get confusing.

I don't really have an alternate name suggestion - I thought Inventor was alright, since it's a title they used on Destination - sorta following similar logic to the whole "Spy Master" name. But it seems that's fallen by the wayside, so I don't really have any other ideas, aside from "The Renegade Master", since they're the first to become a renegade and because it'd be a funny name, but I don't expect that to catch on, two little justification here. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 18:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Just a quick other thing - doesn't change much, but I thought I'd point it out. The third quote n8 posted with the "First Master" name being used to refer to this incarnation, is actually a quote of a quoted review - the article quotes a few reviews, and the third quote is a quote of one of those reviews that was quoted. It ultimately doesn't affect the convo, since there's still two other valid quotes, but I thought I'd point that out. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎  18:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I'd like to retract my support of "The Inventor" or the "Inventor Master". However, I would prefer this page stay at The Master (The Destination Wars) rather than First Master (The Destination Wars) (god forbid an undabbed "First Master"). The reason for this is that, although "First Master" technically doesn't imply "first incarnation of the Master", the casual fans won't see this automatically (and myself, to be honest). This combined with the fact the narrative of The Destination Wars never actually established Dreyfus as the first incarnation, and the Fifth Doctor's later speculation that he is probably the "Second or Third", means that, in my opinion, labelling him "First" in any way will cause more confusion than disambiguation or help. I support leaving this page where it is. Cousin Ettolrhc ☎  19:00, 12 March 2023 (UTC)