Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/The Wedding of River Song


 * The Teselecta in Let's Kill Hitler was stiff and expressionless, for instance Teselecta Amy. How can the Teselecta Doctor look so realistic and Doctorish? The Doctor wasn't even at the commands, he was in the eye.
 * The Teselecta may have been modified to make it more advanced.


 * The Teselacta Amy was only 'stiff' because it had only just taken her form, and the pilots needed a while to get used to it. The Doctor on the other hand, may have had many hours (or longer) to practice.


 * Doesn't River telling Amy and Rory that the Doctor isn't really dead (just after having witnessed his "death") negate almost the entirety of series 6? The events following Lake Silencio should lead the group directly to meeting the younger Doctor and the events of the second episode, thus inciting all following episodes. Amy recognizes that River is her daughter at the end of the finale (possibly due to this information bleeding through into the all-at-once time) even though she has not even given birth to Melody at this point. Is Amy still going to be kidnapped? How does this all work?!?
 * We dont know it was the early Rory and Amy from the Lake, it was my impression it was future Amy and Rory just before the older Doctor's death that was referred at the end as it seems it takes place in there house
 * It was indeed the "present" Amy and Rory, since they know River is their daughter.


 * It almost has to be early Amy and Rory (very soon after the shooting at Lake Silencio) because otherwise they would have met the Younger Doctor in the diner, and gone through series six again. I believe Amy also says something about the Doctor's death being recent, while if it was "present" Amy and Rory, they would have been travelling with him for months. Even if we're assuming the same "time travellers have different perspectives" can epxlain why Amy and Rory have knowledge that should not exist, it doesn't explain how they got out of the loop the show seems to have created when the series "folded back" on itself to fix time. Either time was reset and series 6 does not happen (meaning River/The Ponds should have a VERY different life) or there is a serious hole.


 * It cannot be past Amy and Rory because amongst other things in her drawings, a self portrait of her in Curse of the Black Spot is shown, which we know is post TIA/DoTM. Time does not move, but events still happen in a certain order, given she also remembers the post-hypnotic suggestion to kill the Silence (which doesn't happen until the future Doctor has died). The only time past Amy and Rory are shown is on the flashback to the beach as time is reset. There is no question that the end of the the episode is post-The God Complex, because the house the Ponds/Williams are living in is definitely the one the Doctor gave them judging by the style and definitely not the one they were living in when they received their envelopes. And yes, after time is reset, they do go on to meet the younger Doctor in the diner, we just don't see it, what we see is a flash forward from the death in TIA to the post TGS Amy and Rory (that does not mean the rest of Series 6 does not happen). Amy refers to the Doctor's death as recent because her perspective had changed, after the The God Complex, she didn't know that he was going to his death at that time, but with the memories of the altered timeline as well as the proper timeline in her head gives her a new perspective, because she knows now that at some point after he left her, he goes to the beach to die. Hell, the scene shown could set before Closing Time for the Ponds, it just has to take place after the God Complex.


 * Why isn't the TARDIS in the 5.02pm universe as it was at Lake Silencio why would it not go into the 5.02 universe like the Teselecta?
 * It was. If you look in the background of the close-up of the Teselecta's eye, the TARDIS is behind the Doctor.
 * You're right, but then why didnt he just use the TARDIS to fix everything?
 * Because he can't? You'll have to be more specific than "fix everything".
 * If you think about it, he had fixed it (his death), but River "fixing it" from her end screwed everything up in a new and inventive way.


 * How was the timeline restored if River kissed a Teselecta?
 * Because the doctor was inside the Teselecta, he described it like wearing a suit, and it was shown when he grabbed River's arm, that the restoration works through clothing, so the same princible applies here.
 * Or...
 * The scene that played out in The Impossible Astronaut always was the Teselecta being shot. When River managed to save the "Dcotor", time fractured. That would make River and the Teselecta the "opposite poles" of the event. While the Doctor was inside it, the "fix" wasn't dependant only on him.


 * When Rory stays behind to face the Silents, he refuses to remove his eyepatch so as not to "forget what is coming", even though the others have removed their eyepatches and not forgotten.
 * Two possibilities:
 * The long exposure to the eyedrive allowed a buffer.
 * He was speaking specifically about the Silence that would come through the door.
 * I think it may be both. He would remomber something is coming, but was concerned that he would "miss" one or more as they came in and he lost eye contact with the individuals.
 * (Side issue: Keep in mind that River, Rory, the Doctor and Amy-Ganger were able to escape a hive/nest when there focus could not have been on all he Silence present.)


 * If Time stops at the lake BEFORE all the event's of sereies 6, how does alternative "all of time at once" Amy remember the Minitour even though they never met the Minitour time changed at a fixed point at the lake BEFORE that adventure. And yet Amy has a drwaing of the Minitour from her alternaive memories.
 * Because it was surpost to end with the doctor dieing, the doctor describes it as different versions of the same event, happening symulantously, as such it did happen, only it didn't, if you understand what I mean.
 * The Minotaur - as well a Pirate Amy and Siren (both from The Curse of the Black Spot) - could be bleed through. Same as River's presence - she was born after IA remember.
 * Best techno-babble reasoning? Three quartet are all "complex space time events" to one extent or another. In Amy's case that could translate into "remembering" the alternate time line.
 * The Doctor himself said that Amy has unique powers because of the Time Crack (even though they never technically existed). So Amy can remember an alternate timeline that didn't happen because of time being changed.
 * The answer given by the Doctor is that Amy can remember alternate timelines due to her long exposure to the time cracks. That means she has both memories of the (at that point) current 'time doesn't change' timeline and the original The Impossible Astronaut through The God Complex timeline.


 * Heading one comment off at the pass, the episode's treatment of the death of the Brigadier does not contradict what's been mentioned on TV or in the novels. On TV the Doctor said in Battlefield that the Brig died in bed, as he as done here. And in the novels the Brig has his youth restored around the year 2010 and continues to live for many more years; there is nothing in this episode that says when the Brigadier actually died (time machine, remember). The only possible flub is why the Doctor would be upset at learning of the Brig's death if he already knew the circumstances.
 * It could also be possible that it was an example of a fluctuating point in time. Perhaps this timeline's Brigadier never had his youth restored, and thusly died earlier than the Doctor expected, which would have surprised him.
 * The canon-status of the books, comics, etc are always subservient to that of the TV series - if the TV says something that counters an event of the books, the TV show's version of the events is considered correct. The Brig would die in bed, but the date is unclear. Indeed, the date that The Doctor called is unknown as well - it could easily have been several years in the future. He's not as good about hitting dates as he'd like - it's the whole dramatic point of The Girl in the Fireplace for example ````


 * The events of Lake Silencio and the events of 'united' timeline all happen after Day of the Moon; hence every 'common' soldier should be imprinted with 'kill silent on sight' mission. We could imagine that the Kovarian's order was later reimprinted by silents by being imprisoned or something. But what about generic soldiers of captain Williams? Should we still presume that spreadout humanity fights The Silence across the Universe? In the way that they are still very oppressed 'parasite' race and hence need those religious orders?
 * The 'united' timeline only occurs 'afer' Day of the Moon in a limited sense - it has a (sort of) history of its own, in which there was no "kill us all on sight" video, which the Doctor does mention.


 * If the Teselecta was shot, how was it able to regenerate?
 * Well with the Doctor at the controls and to direct the look, it would have been easy for the Teselecta to project energy waves to create a simulcrum of a Regeneration. Keep in mind this thing fired beams of light out of its mouth in LKH. Projecting yellow energy subcutaneously shouldn't be beyond its capabilities.


 * The Amy in the garden at the end of the episode remembered the events of the alternative timeline, but had shown no memory of these events earlier in the series (between the shooting in The Impossible Astronaut and her leaving the TARDIS in The God Complex. Why did she only have access to these memories after she had parted ways with the Doctor, and what triggered her memory of them?
 * There's a lot of timey-wimey stuff here. Amy didn't remember the alternate timeline in the rest of the series because the alternate timeline hadn't yet been created in her personal timeline. It's like how the Doctor altered Kazran Sardick's personal past: why didn't he remember the Doctor his entire life? Because the Doctor had'nt yet gone back and changed Kazran's past, according to the Doctor's personal timeline. When the Doctor changed Kazran's past, the altered memories flowed down the timestream and reached the Kazran corresponding to the Doctor's immediate personal past. So Kazran remembered the altered events for the first time after the Doctor had left Kazran's present. The same thing applies here: Amy didn't remember the alternate timeline because the alternate timeline hadn't yet been created in the past. When River created and restored the alternate timeline, Amy immediately remembered the altered events for the first time, because they had only now just happened, so to speak. Does that make any sense? Sorry if I'm actually overcomplicating things.


 * Have the Doctor and River had other adventures with each other yet (eg. Jim the Fish)? and is the doctor 1103 years old?


 * I'd say yes.
 * This is suspect. While The Doctor certainly spent some time between the events of God Complex and Closing Time on his own, and more between the end of Closing Time and Wedding, (Not to mention between in between semi-seasons searching for Melody) it seems unlikely it was 200 years. He certainly had time to spend with River Song as well, but at that time he still had limited information as to why he should. Much of the (however much) older Doctor's actions at the beginning of the season were cloaked in subterfuge, to get both his friends and his younger self into a position to go through the adventures that would provide them with the information to start the ball rolling in finding River/Melody in the first place. So if pretending he's got a few more shared adventures under his belt would help, he'd not be above saying so. This begs the question of how he'd know who Jim the Fish was, but he could certainly have met Jim first, introduced River to him later, and took a gamble that he might have done that already, or passed it off as an adventure she'd not had yet.Vbartilucci talk to me 12:09, October 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * There must have been other adventures with the Doctor and River, keeping in mind that the Doctor didn't actually tell River his name yet - and this is key, because it's the method that she uses to identify herself (to him) as his wife back in the Library DW:Silence in the Library. The Doctor is convinced (then) that River is his wife because only his wife would know his true name. One might suppose that if there were even a chance that River could have learned his name some other way, or not in wedlock then that knowledge wouldn't have been so convincing to him.


 * Perhaps the Doctor was lying about being older? Because either he didn't regenerate (still looks like Matt Smith) in those 200 years, or he was actually covering up for minor defects in the Teselecta which could be explained as "aging".


 * No. An interview with Gareth Roberts confirms that the aging took place off screen between The God Complex and Closing Time, which means the Doctor is indeed 1103.


 * Time Lords can use the same body for centuries, so not regenerating is plausible, but what defects needed to be explained away? It was the Doctor who volunteered how old he was; no one asked him beforehand.
 * Can I suggest that the age of the teselecta was 1103 years old? That might explain the apparent age disparity between the Doc and the machine-doctor? Although how he managed to do jim the fish and the other stuff I haven't the foggiest.


 * This seems likely. In the standard timeline version of events established in The Impossible Astronaut, he claims to be 200 years older and to have met Jim the Fish, and he has seemingly no reason to lie about it. After time was restored, this is still the way it played out. It happened as it should have the first time, ages and events included.


 * How are Dorium and the other heads alive? Don't people generally need bodies to live?
 * Presumably they have some kind of life support. Dorium has a "media chip", so it's possible they have cybernetics keeping them alive.
 * Considering the Headless Monks somehow keep their bodies alive without the heads, keeping the heads alive without the bodies isn't too big a jump.Vbartilucci talk to me 12:09, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Can I suggest that the age of the teselecta was 1103 years old? That might explain the apparent age disparity between the Doc and the machine-doctor? Although how he managed to do jim the fish and the other stuff I haven't the foggiest.


 * When Amy returns to save Rory with a machine gun in hand, how is she able to remember that the Silents are about to swarm him if she had already removed her eye-drive?
 * She could see them.


 * This doesn't answer the question at all. Please read it again. Why did she  return ?
 * The series of events goes like this:
 * Amy takes off her eyedrive. She forgets the silents.
 * Amy sees that something is trying to break down the door, and Rory is going to hold them off.
 * Amy leaves, realizes she loves Rory, and comes back to save him from whatever it is that's trying to get in that's clearly hostile. -- Dark T Zeratul talk to me 21:46, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you're understanding the Eye-Drives (or I-Drives) backwards. They were stated to record and then write directly to the memory centers of your brain. So, she removed her eyepatch and could not further receive new memories from it, but she still had the existing ones. With that context she can extrapolate the rest.

I'm actually confused about the set up for this. What's the logic behind River being able to intentionally cause this time bubble in the first place? Which iteration of River is doing this?


 * So, the "fixed point in time" is actually the Doctor's image being shot and not actually the Doctor's death. Coupled with the idea that the rest of the universe is convinced of his death... To the point of convicting and imprisoning River (albeit she can escape whenever she wants) in the Stormcage well into the 51st century, and the crew of the Teselecta being similarly convinced (in spite of them being from a significantly future time, where the truth is still unknown)... Unless this is all untrue... Indeed nobody seemed to know who was in the spacesuit (a clean escape for the "assassin") it has still only been implied that River was accused of killing the Doctor.
 * When watching the episode, I found myself wondering if River, in addition to causing the time bubble by "rewriting" the fixed point, also inadvertently caused the Doctor's "death" to become a fixed point in time by essentially broadcasting that the Doctor was going to die at that time and place throughout time and space with the "timey-wimey distress beacon". It's a bit of a paradox as each action leads to the other, but I wonder if The Silence just chose the Lake Silencio spot and let River do the rest (possibly under their influence).


 * The Doctor asks: "Why Lake Silencio? Why, Utah?"
 * I ask: Why THAT question? Was anyone actually asking it?
 * At what point does failure to answer the questions that are ongoing before adding new ones become a discontinuity or "plot hole"?
 * Why-did-the T-A-R-D-I-S-explode?
 * If it was the Silence then what were they thinking? They appear to be coporeal being and in as much danger as anythig else if everything was unmade. If they really consider themselves the "sentinels of history", an ironic choice of vocation given what they are, then if they did something that caused all of history to fall apart they should perhaps consider a new career path.
 * What happened when Amy pulled the trigger?
 * Why did they want Melody Pond?
 * What was the point Of River Song?
 * If they just wanted someone to be in a spacesuit and fail to stop it shooting the Docto why couldn't Madame K do it herself? ANYONE could do that.
 * Why an astronaut for that matter?
 * If the fixed point was so important why did they have no problem with River trying to kill the Doctor in Berlin?
 * Why did River Song not know about River Song, how did Amy explain getting back without mentioning her? How'd she manage to never mention her?
 * And given the very great gift of the Silence, why, when they have that and and already brainwashed their killing machine not just put her in the suit show her a photo of the Doctor tell her to "see and shoot" (a trick they learned from him) then clear off leaving her to subconsciously kill the Doctor of the shores of Lake Slencio as soon as they meet instead of having her fight a spacesuit?
 * Also, since she beat it so easily, why isn't the fixed point revolving around her draining a battery?
 * The Silence appear too be the most discontinuous element ever introduced - their nature helps that, of course - but even so nothing about what we hear about them seems consistent with what they do.
 * Basically we've, apparently, had two seasons now where River has managed to break spacetime and the Silence seem to be in their element.
 * I suspect either Stephen Moffit is deceiving us about motives of the Silence or else he hasn't thought this through properly.
 * I'm not expecting anyone to try and answer all these questions. I just feel it's a lot left up in the air to keep back for at least Autumn of next year. And I don't really see space for much of it then.

It is 5:02 in Utah when the event happens. How come in Britain, a different time zone, the time is also 5:02? And if time has 'stopped' how come only timepieces are effected, when the rest of the world is progressing normally?