Howling:Paraphasing Moffat: Maybe I'll come back to that

Certainly hope this isn't against the rules, but hoping isn't going to stop me.

Is anybody else noticing/highly fed-up with, an apparent trend of Moffat's to just throw crap into the script with no definite intention of following it up?

Season 5 was (IMO) the best season of New Who, and AotD was (IMO) the best episode of New Who... but most of S6 and too much (so far) of S7 just leaves me angry and ashamed.

Doctor Who is not Lost. The mysteries and plot threads were fun, but now we've hit a point where it seems obvious that big plot threads are going to be left permanently hanging. Who piloted the Tardis out-from-under River, to Amy's wedding night? How did the Silence get to Earth, what was their original motivation? What links the Church and the Monks (who live in the 5,000s, right?) to this invasion by the Silence (which may stretch back to prehistory)? How did the Doctor get his sonic back from the Ganger Doctor? Big threads and small threads are being abandoned at such a rate that it's basically front-and-center to myself and all my fellow Who fans in real life.

Some of us are about to stop watching Who altogether... and I've been a fan for some 25 years. We've come to the conclusion that The Moff is peeved off at the audience and punishing us (not going to go into specifics, because it'll start a flame war... let's say, in addition to the popular points of finger-wagging in certain unpopular episodes, certain popular episodes have also rubbed us horribly wrong.) And there are also some just mind-crushingly obvious mistakes, like: if the Angels were repeatedly zapping people back to a time they had already been to when they tried to escape, then how is there any empty space left in the whole of Manhattan? It would be filled with thousands of copies of each person there.)

I'm not going to reply to any specific corrections or theories that were formulated off screen to explain these glaring omissions. I'm just asking: how common/rare is it for a Whovian, these days, to be impatient to the point of quitting their fandom over this? Agonaga ☎  14:37, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Although I'm not anywhere near the point of "quitting [my] fandom", I do agree that the lack of follow-through is annoying.

(By the way, you say you've "been a fan for some 25 years." I've been a fan since An Unearthly Child first aired, so I can almost double that!)

"Who piloted the Tardis out-from-under River...?" is a question of fairly major importance. It's possible that Moffat hasn't forgotten it & will resolve it in conjunction with the Silence & the Question. However, the whole of Series 6 & the first chunk of Series 7 have gone by without any progress on this point. For me, it's the lack of progress, not the lack of resolution, that's the real problem. Had Series 6 given us just one small piece of information that we knew was related to the TARDIS hijacking, it would have been reassurance that the plotline is pending, not abandoned. It's the impression (which I hope is false) of abandonment that's the real problem for me.

The other main annoyance is that the "reboot" of the universe in The Big Bang was touted out of universe by Moffat as being a mechanism for resetting things so that the in-universe everyday world would be more like the real world. People wouldn't regard the existence of aliens as a known fact & would react to things much as real people would. That made sense, as far as it went. It was a drastic change, however, that would be worthwhile only if it allowed good stories that couldn't otherwise be told. So far, we've had no stories (good or bad) that couldn't have been told equally well had the "reboot" never happened. In short, Moffat did a major job of setting the scene, then did nothing at all with the scene he'd set.

There have been episodes that didn't work properly. Duff episodes occur in almost every show. They always have. It's unfortunate but not a disaster unless duff episodes become the norm instead of the exception -- or they coincide with a loss of trust in the showrunners. It's a loss of trust that's happening with Moffat.

It's bearable -- can even be enjoyable -- for the audience not to know where the show's going, as long as the audience has confidence that the showrunners know where it's going. Moffat is causing too many fans to suspect that he doesn't really know. Reassurance on this point is definitely needed. --2.96.16.185talk to me 22:44, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * First, I find it hard to believe that anyone who thinks AotD was best episode of New Who is seriously on the point of quitting. If you could go back in time, would you really skip watching series 7a? If not, why would you skip 7b or 8? For some reason, every fandom drives some perfectly reasonable people to make claims like that, and they're never true. Calm down and get the hyperbole out of the way, and we can talk.


 * I _do_ think Moffat is to blame for a segment of fandom getting angry—not for the shows he's writing, but for the expectations he sets up.


 * Moffat definitely knows where the show is going far more than RTD, Cartmel, Adams, Holmes, Bryant, etc. ever did. The show has always had plotlines that went nowhere—before Moffat, the show left almost everything hanging. The Key to Time, the Doctor rediscovering the Eye of Harmony, Lady Peinforte's big secret, Martha marrying Tom Milligan, … almost nothing ever got appropriate resolution. Under Moffat, it's 50% instead of 10%, which shouldn't be something to complain about.


 * And yet, we do complain. And it's not because we're insane. It's because Moffat really wants us to believe that he's going to pull off what The X-Files, Heroes, Lost, Enterprise, etc. all failed at—all while still being a show that works for casual viewers (which those shows barely even attempted). He can't pull that off; nobody can.


 * I'm not just saying this as an outside observer. TPO3 made me realize that the first post-Big Bang crowd scenes were RTD-homage scenes that obviously could have worked without any of the changes in The Big Bang. I loved the cracks/reboot storyline, and logically there's no reason Moffat's behind-the-scenes comments make it work less. But knowing that I logically shouldn't be angry doesn't help.


 * So, what can I do about it? Honestly, reading people with complaints that are much more stupid than mine is the only thing that's ever helped, in Doctor Who fandom or elsewhere. For example, when I was angry with Stephen Cole about the EDAs, Larry Miles's insane rant made me feel better. I hope that's not the only answer, but it's all I've ever found… --70.36.140.233talk to me 04:53, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

70, to be honest, after DoaS, I did stop watching. I finished the season (Except ATCM) because a friend put it on while I was at his house. I didn't want to watch again until Claire's introduction, expecting that TATM would be little more than a nonsensical attempt to make us weepy.

For me, AotD was the only Who-worthy ep this season. Season 6 had a couple Who-worthy eps as well. My feeling after S6 was the same as after I watched The End of Time -- and the only reason I kept watching then, was because of the change of showrunner. That feeling was, "you guys get one season to unfutz this wreck, or else I'll have to just assume this show is not targeted at me." Season 7 is once again that one season they get, IMO, to unfutz the wreck. My childhood isn't screaming rape, but I only watch one television show, period. I make a special point to see that one show. I consider writing this post to be a better use of my time than television tends to be. I have better things to do with my time than watch bad television.

This isn't a temper-throwing declaration. I'm sad. My love of this show is dying. I didn't want to watch the final 3 episodes of S7b. I had a strong urge to not watch them. I was extremely glad that Amy and Rory were leaving (my previously-favorite companions ever... someone finally replaced Ace, for a moment, until S6 came along) but I didn't care how they left (except that I hoped they'd die so we'd never have them back again... yet another bollocks "death" of a companion).

As to past plot threads, the only ones I really felt were woefully abandoned were the 6th and 7th Doctor's storylines, and for obvious reason. You're right that Moffat's early quality and focus are partly to blame... but only to a point. RTD drove me away completely. Moff drew me back but now it seems only temporarily. He's writing a kids' show. I didn't know Doctor Who was supposed to be watched exclusively  by kids (and people who don't care about extremely important unfinished stories).

I don't have kids. I'm a science fiction fan, and a fan of the Doctor as a character. Many moments in TATM were rewarding as character moments for the Doctor, but if Doctor Who is going to remain a meal of Spaghetti-O's with fake meat, then there are still around 60-70 EDAs I haven't read yet. Agonaga ☎  13:21, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Agonaga: Please don't abbreviate episode titles the first time you mention them in a post. I can work out that "DoaS" is Dinosaurs on a Spaceship -- but only by looking through the list of episodes to find which one fits the abbreviation. That is an unnecessary distraction from paying attention to what you're saying. Once you've mentioned an episode by its title, abbreviating it thereafter in that post isn't a problem. (If you use the abbreviation in a later post, without the full title as a "refresher", that's a distraction, too, because I've then to look backwards to try to work out what the flaming thing actually means.)

I don't agree with you that Moffat is "writing a kids' show" in the sense that it's suitable only for kids. I can understand, though, why you feel as if it is. I too have a sense of being let down & having my intelligence somewhat insulted -- but I have to agree with 70 that this really comes from what Moffat has said "out of universe", rather than from the content of the episodes themselves. Out of universe, he's raising expectations of a follow-up that he's not subsequently delivering.

What you say about RTD strikes no chord with me at all. He wasn't perfect ("Nobody's perfect, Professor!") but the duff episodes were few & far between. That is a matter of taste & tastes differ, so there's no point arguing about it.

The abandonment of the 6th Doctor's storyline didn't upset me. I felt sorry for Colin Baker, because he was fired for having done exactly what he was asked to do. Unfortunately, by that stage, it was the 6th Doctor's storyline itself that was the visible part of the problem. The 6th Doctor was badly mishandled -- not by Baker but by those who were asking him to play the Doctor in a way that lost the sympathy of the audience for the character. Once that sympathy had been lost, the only way to get it back was to introduce a new incarnation of the Doctor.

The abandonment of the 7th Doctor's storyline did upset me. The show was very definitely well on its way back up & was, in effect, cancelled because of problems that had by then already been corrected. The 7th Doctor isn't my favourite Doctor but he's near the top of the list. On the other hand, the combination of the 7th Doctor & Ace is still my favourite combination. They made a genuine team in a way that no other Doctor/companion combination has ever managed (so far).

Neither Amy nor anyone else has managed to displace -- even temporarily -- Ace as my clear favourite among the companions. I could (but won't) fill the screen several times over, saying why she is. I'd have liked her to have been brought back & to have met Amy. That chance has gone. In any case, the big problem with bringing Ace back while River is around is that they'd be far too lethal a combination for the Doctor's enemies!

I'd still like Ace to be brought back, though, & not just for a one-off "guest" appearance, either.

To get back to Moffat, as it were: I think he fairly urgently needs to start delivering some follow-through on the main plot arcs that he's left hanging. He needs to resolve the Silence/TARDIS explosion/River Song/"oldest Question" arc & he needs to do it well. The worst thing about Series 6, in that respect, was that the resolution of the River-shoots-the-Doctor plot in the finalé was horribly rushed & disappointing. The story of the finalé was fine. Ramming it all into a one-parter was not. It needed more screen time. If the Silence/TARDIS explosion/River Song/"oldest Question" arc gets resolved in a way that seems similarly perfunctory, it won't work. In fact, it'll be a disaster. --2.96.28.59talk to me 16:34, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Given what you said about kids' shows, it might not appeal to you but RTD was planning on bringing Ace into The Sarah Jane Adventures as a guest. That could have been very good because Ace & Sarah Jane are so different. I'd have loved to see Sarah Jane's reaction to the idea of a 16-year-old girl fighting Daleks -- & using an ATR to blow one away! (Never mind beating one up with a baseball bat.) I think Sarah Jane would have liked Ace but would also have regarded her as setting a really bad example for Luke, Sky, Rani & Clyde. --2.96.25.226talk to me 19:33, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2... yeah, that would have been nice. "So... you've met the Doctor? Funny because you don't act like it." Agonaga ☎  21:57, October 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agonaga, it sounds like you really are a difference case from most other fans. You genuinely don't like the new series, or modern TV in general, and Moffat was almost but not quite enough to bring you back. I apologize for lumping you in with everyone else.


 * Anyway, I think I understand why you're disappointed: you think what Moffat is doing is the best thing on TV, but it's still not nearly good enough. That would be bad enough on its own, but the fact that it's Doctor Who makes it even more tantalizing, and therefore the failure is even more heartbreaking. If so, that's a perfectly reasonable opinion, and a perfectly reasonable emotional reaction. And honestly, I think I understand the kind of show you want, and I'd love that as much as you would—except that it would be canceled after half a season, even if he pulled it off. The only thing I can say is: some of those 60-70 EDAs are amazing, and there are even a handful of really good NSAs among the dross, so you've still got a lot to look forward to.


 * As for Ace and Sarah Jane, in some ways I wish Larry Miles had brought SJ back in the NAs. Watching her deal with 8 and Sam was fun, but watching her deal with 7 and Ace could have been brilliantly uncomfortable (and a much more complex story than Mel in Head Games). --70.36.140.233talk to me 00:22, October 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agonaga, I've just watched Dragonfire again, with the commentary on. (Not because of this discussion but because I happened to feel like it.) One thing struck me as relevant to this topic: In the commentary, Ian Briggs (writer) mentions that he put a note in the script that the "time storm" explanation of Ace's presence on Iceworld didn't stand up logically & would need to be explained later on. It eventually was explained -- by Briggs, in The Curse of Fenric -- but that was 2 years later. Fans at the time (of whom you may have been one) certainly noticed that the "time storm" was a loose end that had been left hanging & wanted to know what had been behind it. It wasn't seen as a problem (as far as I know), just as something it'd be nice to revisit & learn more about.


 * I think the difference in attitude is, at least partly, because no great emphasis had been placed on it in Dragonfire & there hadn't been any implicit or explicit promises that more would be made of it. Expectations weren't raised, so the 2-year wait didn't cause the level of frustration & impatience that Moffat's loose ends are causing.


 * 70, Ace and Sarah Jane: Prior to The Sarah Jane Adventures ("back in the NAs"), SJ's attitude to Ace might have been rather different. SJ first met the Doctor in his 3rd incarnation & Three (unlike most incarnations) was willing to use violence & even firearms. In a 4th Doctor story (The Pyramids of Mars), SJ herself is shown using a rifle & being a good shot -- though the target wasn't a living being. It's her feeling of responsibility for the safety of her young friends in SJA that would add the "edge" to her attitude to Ace, because of the fear that the youngsters might see Dalek hunting &c as glamorous, rather than as horribly dangerous -- "a terminal occupation", as Seven described it to Ace in Remembrance of the Daleks. I can't think of anyone with responsibility for the safety of youngsters who wouldn't regard Ace as a bad example to them. That's fair enough because, at that age, to get away with what Ace got away with, you'd need to be Ace or someone very like her -- and there just aren't many of those. --89.241.64.135talk to me 02:58, October 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I was thinking more in terms of the way 7 used Ace (as opposed to the way 8 and 10 relied on their companions), than of Ace herself (as opposed to Sam or Rose). But you're right, Ace as a role model for Rani is a scary thought.


 * As for Dragonfire: Briggs really should have known that you can't do that. Fortunately, he was a complete newcomer, and his script editor was a computer journalist, so nobody told him, so he did it, and pulled it off. In fact, every writer after Mark of the Rani was a complete TV amateur. (Well, OK, not since 2005… but even most of them did their first Doctor Who writing while they were still TV amateurs…) I don't think the secret was "hire a bunch of rank amateurs and don't supervise them" so much as "hire a bunch of massive Who fans instead of professional TV hacks who don't particularly care about the show". But there probably was some beginner's luck involved, too. --70.36.140.233talk to me 03:20, October 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Briggs may not have known that you can't do that but Cartmel certainly did know -- & he let Briggs do it, anyway. No complaints, because it worked rather well. Briggs gave Ace a very, very good start in Dragonfire by establishing the character so thoroughly that nobody thereafter could get away with scripting her as a "standard screaming female". Sophie Aldred also made a big contribution for a similar reason: It was her first TV job, so she didn't know the unwritten rules & did things the way she'd been used to doing them in her theatre work, which included a lot of actor-input into how the character was scripted, as well as played. One result was a firm "no screaming" policy that even JN-T couldn't overrule -- though he tried several times. Cartmel did go for writers who cared about the show, rather than hacks who didn't, but he didn't leave them unsupervised.


 * "Ace as a role model for Rani is a scary thought": What about Ace as a role model for Sky? Sky with her ability (albeit diminished) for jinxing electricals? Sky with her "OK, it's lethally dangerous but I'll do it anyway, because it's right" outlook? Rani at least had a reasonable level of experience & maturity. Sky went from baby to 12-year-old in a flash -- literally. If you want a scary thought, imagine her following in Ace's footsteps! --89.240.254.162talk to me 07:01, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm tempted to join this discussion but I just know it will get deleted. May I suggest moving this to the Watercooler Forum on Doctor Who Answers wiki? 83.100.155.135talk to me 18:00, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

NO! this discussion stays here, on this wiki. the only discussions i can think of here which i have noticed going missing were the ones on the 50th anniversary and the new film version of doctor who by the guy who directed/produced/whatever he did for the last few harry potter movies. this kind of conversation, although maybe not ideal, is fine for this forum. we are discussing how different writers/producers/whatever have interpreted the whoniverse which leads to a greater understanding of it for us, and the further understanding of the whoniverse is what this forum's for. or, at lease that's how i would put it if any admin's asked. also, there is a very different crowd of people who inhabit each wiki because of the content on there. so no, no change of forum. there is no convincing me otherwise. Imamadmad ☎  02:10, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well said, Imamadmad!

I visit both fora regularly & this one generally gets more serious thought put into its contributions. It's so far been spared notions such as "I just want to see the Slitheen as Chicago gangsters & I don't care if it makes sense!" or the like. (I was 89, last time.) --2.96.22.5talk to me 06:10, October 23, 2012 (UTC)