Talk:Dust Devil (audio story)

Concerns on coverage
Need to preface this by stating that I haven't listened to Dust Devil or any of the other stories, but why are links being created to pages such as Fourth Doctor (Dust Devil)?

Surely the new timeline is a result of a point of divergence during Genesis of the Daleks, not an entirely new universe? So shouldn't the characters such as the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane be treated as the same as their "regular" counterparts up until the timeline split? 📯 📂 00:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Due to the element of time travel we cannot say with complete certainty that these characters had the exact timeline as the originals prior to the divergence. Any of their new adventures following the split could theoretically interfere with their individual past. Hence why it is a good idea to cover them on separate pages. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  00:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The Unbound stories take place in alternate universes, rather than alternate timelines. If someone had gone back in time and convinced the Fourth Doctor to change his decision, that would be an alternate timeline. That didn't happen here. The Doctor simply chose a different path than the one our Doctor did, which means a parallel universe. DarkXaven ☎  00:44, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * @DrWHOCorrieFan - that is a valid point, but also speculative, and probably won't be entirely useful.
 * @DarkXaven - while the other Unbound stories do indeed take place in alternates, it is not impossible for a new story to break that mould. And even though there was seemingly no catalyst for the divergence, it still appears to be a divergence, so there is merit in saying that they're the same up until the divergence. 📯 📂 01:14, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Also, the boxset summary does actually state:


 * (Emphasis mine)
 * Without listening to the story, it does appear from the evidence that there is a divergence point, not a wholly new universe. 📯 📂 01:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * If two universes diverge doesn't that create another universe? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  08:41, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Doctor Who Unbound has been brought back due to the popularity of Marvel's "What if?" and it follows the exact same setup - characters making different choices which create a wholly new universe within a large multiverse. These separate universes can occasionally interact. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  08:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I've listened to the story. It's pretty clear the Warrior's universe is not actually a parallel universe but an alternate timeline that diverges. Dust Devil is about the N-Space Sixth Doctor suffering from changes in the timeline catching up with him. I mean, maybe it's not the N-Space Doctor but one identical to him in every way shown… In either case it's a timeline of some sort and not an entirely separate universe. (Maybe The Warrior's timeline is a better name?) I'll get back to this when I've listened to the other two stories in hopes they have more explanation.


 * Regardless of that, the Fourth Doctor, Sarah Jane Smith and Harry Sullivan all face different fates after the timeline split occurs. I don't know if that really means they should get their own pages; it might be better for alternate timelines on their main pages. Again, I'll come back when I've listened to the other stories. Chubby Potato ☎  08:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The Tenth Doctor stated in 'Rise of the Cybermen' that every choice we make creates a parallel universe. So, why would a major choice here only create an "alternate timeline" rather than its own parallel universe? Wasn't Pete's World speculated to have been formed, albeit in a non-valid source, when the timeline diverged following Queen Victoria's death? If this was ever confirmed would you really want all of the parallel counterparts to be placed on single pages? There is a reason we separate Yvonne Hartman and Yvonne Hartman (Pete's World), just like there is a reason that these pages should be separate. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  09:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I have to point out that "divergence" is also the word used to describe the moment when two universes split off into different paths. It's like a fork in the road. Prior to the fork, there is only one road. But at the fork, the road splits into two roads, going different directions. The same is true with the universe, splitting into many universes, creating what we know as the multiverse. An alternate timeline would be someone going to the road during its construction and changing the plans for its construction, so it goes in a different direction than before. For an alternate timeline to exist, there has to be a catalyst that causes history to go down a different path than before. They don't occur naturally. So when they do occur, the original timeline ceases to exist. Alternate universes, however, do occur naturally, whenever someone makes a choice. The moment they make that choice, a universe featuring the other choice immediately pops into existence in its own separate dimension, existing alongside the other universe.


 * The big thing that makes this whole question of alternate timeline vs. alternate universe so complicated, is that the choice at the center of this, the Fourth Doctor's decision with the wires, is linked very heavily to the Time War, the most complicated event in Doctor Who history, with paradoxes piled on top of paradoxes. Prior to the divergence, the Time War would be the one we know, with it occurring during the Eighth Doctor's lifetime. The Time Lords, who sent the Fourth Doctor to Skaro, were from a reality where the Time War occurred then.


 * So, is this an alternate timeline, or an alternate universe? My problem with alternate timeline is the very fact that there was no outside interference that caused the Fourth Doctor to choose differently. If it is the same universe as the one we know, then it's impossible for the Fourth Doctor to choose differently, because we know he chose not to destroy the Daleks. He can't just magically choose otherwise, unless there's an outside influence. We currently have no evidence of any such influence. But, there's still the existence of the Sixth Doctor and Peri to consider. This whole mess is so complicated, it's like we're dealing with an alternate timeline of an alternate universe. DarkXaven ☎  11:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

To address your points @DrWHOCorrieFan, I need to say two things:
 * Firstly, we are not Marvel. How Marvel handles their What If series is antithetical to how Big Finish handles their Unbound series, even if the former was the inspiration for the latter, and that there exist basic commonalities between the two. So it doesn't really matter that What If stories are set in their own "Earth-XYZ" universe, Doctor Who always does its own thing.
 * Secondly, you forget that Doctor Who and consistency are not "friends". They don't go hand in hand. Doctor Who is not consistent. More often than not, a lot of lore, especially about alternate universes/timelines (as @NoNotTheMemes can testify!) is extraordinarily contradictory between sources. There is no one "true" explanation of how timelines work, and it varies story from story.

And to address your points, @DarkXaven...
 * What I said in response to @DrWHOCorrieFan applies here too: Doctor Who does not have consistent rules on how universes work. While normally, there may need to be a catalyst for a split, a divergence, this isn't necessary. We need to examine the evidence in the story, and so far it seems pretty clear to me that this is working as an forking timeline/universe from the original one, even if it has been set up unconventionally.
 * Moreover, there could still be a story yet that establishes that was indeed a catalyst for the split. It just hasn't been explained yet.
 * Finally, it is worth mentioning that in the real world, universes and timelines are treated as the same theoretical concept. It's only in fiction where there is a difference, and it may be entirely possible that Dust Devil is using the real world understanding on how universes may work.

While there may a lot up in the air, I think that given the evidence we have so far, even if that same evidence doesn't align with previous DWU sources, treats the events of Dust Devil as a divergent timeline. This is especially clear, given that @Chubby Potato has listened to the story and confirmed the "divergent timeline" as such. 📯 📂 12:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * My question to you is, why would you want this information covered on a single page? What are the benefits? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  12:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * To have a consistent and functional Wiki that operates on facts and information given from stories, not fan hypotheses? 📯 📂 12:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * This boxset's concept is in no way different to the other Unbound releases, but simply because the Doctor retains his face you think that they should be treated different to the characters who are played by new actors? Interesting direction. Literally the whole Unbound Universe was created by the divergent of sending the Doctor to Hong Kong rather than England in the 1980s. Explain to me how that is any different to The Warrior's universe. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  13:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * There were differences between the Unbound Universe and the main one before the Doctor's trial. I support the Fourth Doctor material in this story being covered on Fourth Doctor in a dedicated section about Genesis of the Daleks. – n8 (☎) 13:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * So the deal with this set is a little strange. It begins in “our” universe, up to the point the Doctor decides to wipe out the Dalek incubators. This is signposted by the fact that Sarah begins to feel history breaking before she and Harry are killed by the Daleks. It’s made clear that the Doctor’s decision to wipe out the Daleks created the divergence and damaged time, leading to many versions of the Doctor running about. So we spend the majority of Dust Devils following the Sixth Doctor and Peri from the main continuity (or at least versions of them that are virtually identical) who begin to experience time shifting around them into the Warrior’s universe. Ultimately the Sixth Doctor (who was meant to the proper Doctor but the divergence to the timeline made him more of an aberrant timeline) is killed in order to allow The Warrior to become the primary timeline. So it’s sort of like the history of N-Space is rewritten rather than branching off, but we get no indication that it’s actually going to be put back beyond some promotional stuff comparing The Warrior to the Nightmare Child and the Skaro Degradations. I think we need to wait for the next set and then decide whether or not things should be split. As of now, The Warrior exits in a rewritten version of N-Space like Klein’s World. The timeline was in flux to begin with and allowed for other Doctors like the regular Sixth Doctor to exist until it was solidified as the Warrior’s world. SarahJaneFan ☎  13:35, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * @DrWHOCorrieFan - obviously this boxset is breaking the Unbound mould considering the evidence given by @Chubby Potato and @SarahJaneFan. I am not stating that these are the same timelines merely because "the Doctor retains his face"; I never said anything of the sort - I have been trying to ascertain the facts given from the stories in question. And as for AUDIO: Sympathy for the Devil, I'm not entirely sure why they are treated separately, but there has probably been a lot of previous Forum discussions on it.
 * Considering @SarahJaneFan's explanation, it seems to me to be a divergent universe, albeit entirely non-linearly, where the Fourth Doctor's decision caused time itself to change, not just one specific, neat divergance point. But considering that Genesis widely regarded to be the beginning of the Time War, it makes sense that massive repercussions occured.
 * Finally, @SarahJaneFan, while it does make sense to wait for further installments to give further details, what do you suggest we do at present? Treat the "original" universe as N-Space or treat them as separate entities? 📯 📂 17:23, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * @User:Epsilon the Eternal In regards to Sympathy for the Devil, that one is treated as an alternate universe, because it was clearly established that it was an alternate universe. I know Bernice Summerfield crossed over into that universe and both the Unbound Doctor and Unbound Master have crossed over into the main universe. The Sixth Doctor and Evelyn Smythe also traveled there once and it was done by traveling sideways in time, which is what happens when going from one universe to another, according to the Seventh Doctor.


 * As for what to do presently, since we're already part way into the info being posted separately, it would probably be easier to just keep it separate for now, and integrate if it turns out to clearly be alternate timeline. I mean, at this point, we can't even put this into one of the tables on the alternate timeline page, since no one has negated it back into the original timeline yet. But, we should leave a note that it's still up in the air on what we're dealing with here, and we're waiting on future anthologies to hopefully clear things up. We do know for sure that there's one anthology yet to come, and with a name like Destiny, it may very well be where things are cleared up. DarkXaven ☎  23:01, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Edit: I negate most of my second paragraph, now that I just reread what has previously been said here. But, I still stand by keeping them separate for now, as things are currently set up with that in mind, and I still stand by leaving a note stating that things are still up in the air. 23:20, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * After sleeping on things, I've had an epiphany. We're dealing with a time travel phenomena unlike any we have seen over the years. We're dealing with a paradox that breaks a closed time loop. First, let's cover what the loop is. Event 1: The Fourth Doctor is sent to Skaro to avert the Daleks. He chooses not to do so. Event 2: In response, the Daleks get stronger, to the point where they can challenge the Time Lords, leading to the Time War. To prevent this, the Time Lords send the Fourth Doctor to Skaro to avert the Daleks. It's a chicken and the egg scenario. Which came first? Both events are dependent on the other. However, because the Fourth Doctor had a choice whether to destroy the Daleks or not, the universe would diverge or branch in two at that moment, because that's how parallel universes are formed.


 * N-Space, our universe, is the branch where the Fourth Doctor chose not to destroy the Daleks. The closed time loop remains intact and the Time War plays out like how we know it to play out. This story is set on the other branch, where the Fourth Doctor chose to destroy the Daleks. However, the Fourth Doctor was only on Skaro because of the other half of the closed time loop, causing a paradox. Prior to that choice, the timeline in this universe was identical to N-Space, including any encounters the first four Doctors had with any future Doctors, any trips they took to the future, etc. This would explain how a version of the Sixth Doctor and Peri could be here. They're remnants of how the timeline was in this universe before the loop was broken, which was identical to N-Space in every way. It, however, is not N-Space, at least, not our N-Space. Our universe is intact and still exists as we know it. I think I somewhat hit the nail on the head when I said alternate timeline of an alternate universe.


 * Basically, after having this revelation, I stand by my previous judgement. It should be kept separate. While this universe did, at one point, have a timeline identical to N-Space, it is not our N-Space. It is a N-Space. Yes, I'm partially quoting the Tenth Doctor here, but it applies in this case. DarkXaven ☎  10:37, April 16 2022 (UTC)


 * As far as this story is concerned, an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are synonymous --in the sense that "alternate universes are a result of a divergence in the course of history". This approach is what is used in the RTD Era and what is used in a majority of Doctor Who fiction. The easiest point of comparison here is Donna's World, an alternative timeline generated by the influence of the Trickster Brigade. Donna's World and Pete's World are both considered the same thing ("great big parallel world[s]"). The Doctor doesn't insist upon "Well, this was an altered timeline or an aborted timeline NOT a parallel universe." because as far as that story is concerned they are the same thing. This is what the STANDARD approach is in fiction. Parallel universes being entirely separate from their genesis is the exception, not the rule. The wiki has this general approach of imposing a difference when it is clearly not the intent.
 * Saying that the Sixth Doctor and Peri are not from N-Space but instead from "an alternate timeline of this alternate universe" feels like a desperate attempt to not take the story at its word. This story is communicating that "the Warrior's World" is an alternate universe in the same way that "Donna's World" is an alternate universe. The Sixth Doctor and Peri that we see are meant to be the ones we are familiar with. If the Donna from Donna's World met the Donna from the Doctor's World, we wouldn't delineate the latter from the "prime" Donna. Or at the very least, we shouldn't. This does not need to be this complicated.NoNotTheMemes ☎  19:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Citing the wiki's approach to the Unbound Universe isn't compelling, at least to me, because it's current approach suffers from the same problem. It's not taking the story at its word. The "Unbound Universe" is an alternate timeline in which the Second Doctor was exiled to the 90s rather than the 70s. That's how it's advertised and that's how it is structured in-universe. As far as that story is concerned, it is something that DIVERGED from the original timeline. The premise that the Third Doctor in *Sympathy for the Devil* didn't regenerate from the Second Doctor that we know from the TV show is the Wiki imposing a narrative upon the story that it very evidently was not trying to say. It's imposing a different approach to "alternate timelines v. alternate universes" than what is used in-story.


 * Imposing the thesis that "alternate timelines are different from alternate universes" as the rule on stories involving Unbounds is a bad doctrine that ignores what the story is trying to do.


 * Some may argue that "Well, because of this change in the Unbound that means X previous adventure didn't happen the way it used to." To that I say, how is that any different from the rest of the show? The 21st Century that Zoe came from is very obviously not the 21st Century that we see in NuWho, but that isn't used to argue that the Second Doctor in the Eleventh Doctor's past isn't the same incarnation as the one we saw in the War Games. As far as these stories are concerned, alternate timelines ARE alternate universes/parallel universes. This is the far more mainstream approach to a "multiverse" both in Doctor Who fiction and in broader science fiction. Imposing the other definition is editorializing. NoNotTheMemes ☎  19:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Coverage, at least in my eyes, is relatively straight forward. Cover the events of the story on Fourth Doctor as "An alternate universe was created when the Fourth Doctor concluded that he did have the right. . ." under the "Alternate Timeline" header. On the Sixth Doctor, and Peri Brown, cover the story under "Alternate Timelines" with the prefix of "In one account, the Doctor and Peri were hunted down by an incarnation from an alternate timeline. . ." Of course, cover the events from the Warrior's perspective and Miss Brown's perspective on The Warrior and Miss Brown respectively, but that's more to do with subsequent stories rather than Dust Devil. This, I feel, retains the spirit of the story and preserves authorial intent --rather than imposing the Wiki's editorializing of the "alternate universe v. altered timeline" debacle. NoNotTheMemes  ☎  21:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Let me try to better explain what it is I'm trying to say. Let's say that on June 24th, 1990, someone is trying to disarm an active bomb. He has to choose whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire. Reality diverges into two possibilities at this choice, one where he cuts the red wire, and one where he cuts the blue wire. You live in the reality where he cuts the red wire. It was the right wire and the building is saved. If you travel back in time to June 23rd, and do nothing to meddle with events, what happens? Nothing changes. The red wire is cut. But now, once again on June 24th, travel sideways to the reality where the blue wire is cut instead, and the building is destroyed. Then, travel back to June 23rd and do nothing. What happens? Nothing changes. The blue wire is cut. But, in both realities everything up to the moment the person chooses a wire is exactly the same. If there is only one universe, there is only one June 23rd, because the divergence hasn't happened yet. So, you travel back to June 23rd again and again, still not meddling in any way. If there is only one June 23rd, then statistically half the time, you should end up on the June 24th where the red wire is cut, and the other half of the time, the June 24th where blue wire is cut. But, is that what would happen? No. Every time, the blue wire is cut, because you are in the reality where the blue wire is cut. That's the thing. When reality diverged, not only does it diverge at the main point, the divergence extends back in the past. There are now two June 23rds. There's the June 23rd that leads to the June 24th where the red wire is cut, and there's the one that leads to the June 24th where the blue wire is cut. The two June 23rds are identical in every way, but lead to different futures and are therefore distinct from each other. They are not part of the same universe. They are from parallel universes.


 * In the analogy with the road with a fork that I've used, not only does the road fork into two directions, but a gap forms, or a wall is built, down the single road, essentially splitting it into two roads, one that only connects to path A and one that only connects to path B. The two roads are identical and go the same direction, until they reach their respective paths, but they are not a single road anymore. They are now two distinct roads. You're in the June 23rd of the blue wire reality. Unless you tamper with the events that will occur, the building will always be destroyed, even though you originated from the red wire reality and the past has not been tampered with. There are only two ways back to the version of events you know. Option 1: Cross back over into your universe, where the red wire was cut. Option 2: Go to the building and convince the person to cut the red wire. This rewrites the blue wire universe so that the red wire is cut instead. That is what this site refers to as an alternate timeline. You're still in the same universe, but you changed its future to more closely match the one in your original one. But, it's still distinct from your universe, because in your reality, you weren't at the building and didn't convince the person to cut the red wire. He just simply chose that option instead. THAT is the distinction between alternate timelines and alternate universes. Alternate universes aka parallel universes aka divergent timelines occur naturally, whenever a choice is made. A universe for every choice. Alternate timelines are unnaturally caused, when an outside force alters a choice, that outside force usually being a time traveler, and cannot exist alongside the original timeline, instead replacing it.


 * Donna's World is actually a good example of the distinction between the two. What the Time Beetle does is reach into the victim's past, force a change on one decision, and rewrite the timeline as a result. This would land us in an alternate timeline, because the universe would compensate around the change, according to the Tenth Doctor. But, also according to the Tenth Doctor, that's not what happened with Donna. Instead, a whole new parallel universe formed around her. We never really got an explanation for why that happened, but I believe the implication is that this happened because of Dalek Caan and the DoctorDonna.


 * Now, in the case with this story, we have unique circumstances. Reality diverges at the point where the Fourth Doctor chooses whether to destroy the Daleks or not. We have the reality where the Fourth Doctor chose not to destroy the Daleks aka our reality. We also have the reality where the Doctor chose to destroy the Daleks, aka this story. But, this choice is at the center of a stable time loop. By the logic of a stable time loop, the Doctor should choose not to destroy the Daleks every time, because that choice being made is part of the loop. But, due to the logic of divergent realities, there must also exist a reality where the Doctor chooses to destroy the Daleks. And thus we have a paradox unlike any we have ever seen. Not only is the future different in this reality when it diverged from the main universe, but so is the past. Because the Fourth Doctor destroyed the Daleks, he could not have been sent by the Time Lords to destroy the Daleks. And yet, he was only on Skaro because they did send him. This paradox is why the Sixth Doctor is able to exist at the same time as the Warrior, even though the Fourth Doctor becomes the Warrior instead of the Fifth Doctor, followed by the Sixth.


 * The Doctor has traveled in time many times and played a role in history in many ways, both in past and future incarnations. As an example, I'll mention the Fifth Doctor's visit to London in 1666, where he causes the Great Fire. Prior to the Fourth Doctor making his choice, Sarah and Harry would certainly have known of the Great Fire. But, they're in the reality where the Fourth Doctor chooses to destroy the Daleks and regenerates into the Warrior, instead of the Fifth Doctor. The Great Fire could not have possibly happened in this reality, and yet, prior to the Fourth Doctor making the choice, it did. That was the history of this universe prior to the Fourth Doctor choosing to destroy the Daleks. It was identical to the history in our universe. But the moment he made the choice, history in this universe changed. The Fifth Doctor never existed. He never visited London in 1666. He never caused the Great Fire. The Great Fire never happened. And thus, the road on that side of the gap or wall decays, warps, etc. But the road on the other side of the gap/wall remains as straight and pristine as ever. It is not affected, because it is separate from the decayed road. It's 1666 is still the same as before, with the Fifth Doctor causing the Great Fire, because in the timeline on that road, the Fourth Doctor chose not to destroy the Daleks and the stable time loop remained intact. And its Sixth Doctor never found himself in a Time War where an alternate version of his previous incarnation wants to kill him. That is our universe, the main Doctor Who universe. But, in the universe of the other road, its Sixth Doctor did find himself in this situation, with his own past falling apart as time changed around him, as he is no longer the destiny of the Doctor in this universe. And it's all because of a fluke in reality, where a universe formed for a choice that a stable time loop says should not have been able to be made.


 * Auld Mortality & A Storm of Angels are a parallel universe. Sympathy for the Devil & Masters of War are a parallel universe. He Jests at Scars... is a parallel universe. It's as simple as that. The only difference here is that the other decision was far more than a single deviation. Regardless of what you think of this, I will say one thing for sure. It has been fun for me to explore this question with the rest of you. Just contemplating the paradox has been an exciting thing. This is the last time I'll make a counter-argument on this topic. After this, whatever decision that is reached here is one I will abide by. I've said what I've wanted to say. Perhaps I've made a point. Perhaps I'm overthinking things. Make of it what you will. I will note one thing. The Valeyard and Mel from He Jests at Scars... are currently treated as separate people from the main versions of the Valeyard and Mel. They have their own separate pages. If the final decision here is to list these characters as an alternate timeline on the main version's page, the same should be done for these two as well. DarkXaven ☎  10:29, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Admittedly I only skimmed your reply, given its length, but you seem intent on defining what the difference between a universe and a timeline. But T:NO RW applies. It doesn't matter how we define it, it depends on how the story defines it, and, like @NoNotTheMemes, pointed out, the Unbound stories tend to conflate them. Therefore, even if it disregards your conceptions on how universes and timelines work, we must go with what a valid source states. 📯 📂 07:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I've listened to all three stories now. Aftershocks doesn’t really play into this, as mostly set in an alternate timeline of the Warrior's universe. The Difference Office features the eponymous Difference Office where Romana works to eliminate paradoxes. She and the Warrior acknowledge all "temporal aberrations" (e.g. the Sixth Doctor in Dust Devil) have been eliminated. There's also a Kraal android that pretends to be the "good" Sixth Doctor (described as such by Colin Baker in the interviews), but as far as we know, he's dead. This and other lines in Dust Devil do make it sound like there were other aberrant Doctors that were killed. Part of the debate is whether the Warrior's universe could be "negated" in a future story, making separate pages unnecessary. But I'd argue just because it's negated doesn't mean individuals existing within it shouldn't have pages— we wouldn't get rid of the Warrior's page, after all. (This is entirely speculation, but it seems to me the Warrior's universe is here to stay and isn't going to be negated, particularly with the Warrior actually contemplating undoing it and Master saying the moment where the timeline split is one of the most heavily fortified moments in time — but who knows, aberrant Six could show up again or something else could happen.) Anyways…


 * Let's step back from the timeline vs universe debate for a moment. Personally, I think the Sixth Doctor and Peri should have their relevant info from this story under Alternate timelines. They are not from the Warrior's universe, so Sixth Doctor (The Warrior's universe) is incorrect. And Sixth Doctor (Dust Devil) is unnecessary since we don't know he's a different one, in fact it points to the opposite.


 * For the Fourth Doctor, Sarah Jane and Harry, they still exist within the Warrior's past. They are indeed actually a part of the Warrior's universe. I think they could get their own pages, but there is the argument they are the same individual that branch off. In which case, I ask, what should we do for someone like Styggron? He also has a counterpart in the Warrior's universe whose past we know nothing about. We don't know how or when he diverged. Maybe he was born after the divergence! For characters like the Master, Romana and Borusa, it makes sense in either to create separate pages since we do that for new incarnations of Time Lords in general. What about Narvin, who appears in the same incarnation in both timelines? All this is why it doesn't even matter if it's an "alternate timeline" or "parallel universe". For that reason I think it might make more sense to create separate pages for everyone who exists as they do as a result of this divergence. But they (particularly Four, Sarah and Harry) could still get alternate timeline headers and the use of . And, to address Epsilon the Eternal's point in the original post of this discussion, it should definitely be mentioned they shared the same past as their N-Space individuals, without saying that it's either a "parallel universe" or an "alternate timeline". And for the use of writing articles, the terminology "alternate universe" in comparison to N-Space might actually be best here, since I think the story discusses the universe being changed and not the timeline, and this terminology allows for both interpretations. See, this is confusing and why we should stay away from these kind of distinctions. Chubby Potato ☎  08:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I somewhat agree that any individual distinct from their "N-Space" counterparts within the Warrior's universe probably should get their own pages, however I would want to refrain from creating separate pages for Four, Sarah, and Harry, as the only meaningful difference from their "prime" versions is a divergance in Genesis of the Daleks — and also, not to do a MCU Wiki/Marvel Database Wiki and follow their suit in creating wholly new pages for the villians in Spider-Man: No Way Home becuase of a potential minor fluctuation to the timeline at their deaths (except for Flint Marko and Curt Connors... because reasons). The more we can avoid that speculative, conjectural creating of pages, the better.


 * We ought to consider Occam's Razor; the simplest possible answer is likely the correct one. Two characters in two stories have exactly the same chronology up until a certain point, and one is stated to be branch off another? That another is 99% likely to be the first one. Worst case, we can later split the pages; we should not decide to cover characters that will effect our readers' interpretations of the story on conjecture, especially if it goes against the intent of the story. That just leads to mistakes in the future, and even official stories begin adopting the misconceptions. And if we have separate pages, their mere existence will lead many to outright believe that they are entirely alternate universe/timeline individuals without underatanding the nuances. 📯 📂 09:06, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I've read over most of this discussion a few times over the past few weeks now. If it helps, I could dig through all three stories and find everything that may allude to whether this reality is an alternate timeline or parallel universe. Then we could compare the results and go with whichever has more evidence backing it. It might take a while, but I'd be more than happy to do it if it helps resolve this discussion. Thalek Prime Overseer ☎  22:02, 27 May 2022 (UTC)


 * That may helpful, actually. If you wouldn't mind then.
 * But I must say, I would rather want a conclusion to this page now, considering now pretty much every character in TV: Turn Left in Donna's World now has a separate page, the exact type of thing I have been trying to argue against here.
 * C'mon, do we really need Martha Jones (Donna's World) or The Moon (Donna's World)? Do they actually serve a purpose outside of the reasons discussed here? I think a case can be made that considering Donna's World was being used as precedent here, it would be a matter of T:BOUND to have created all of those pages. 📯 📂 07:56, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * And also Donna Noble (Donna's World)? This page, even if the others remain, should be merged into Donna Noble. Donna of "N-Space" retains every memory from "Donna's World". They couldn't be any more of the same individual. 📯 📂 08:12, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Alrighty, so far, I've slowly combed through about two thirds of Dust Devil for any info on whether the Warrior's reality is a parallel universe / alternate timeline or whatever. I've still got Aftershocks and The Difference Office to get through as well, but I don't think it'll take me too long. Maybe another week or so. I can't give a definitive answer so far, but I understand the points that you're raising.


 * I'd say that, regardless of the nature of the Warrior's reality, the vast majority of "things" in his reality should have distinct pages - e.g. Narvin, Styggron, the Daleks, Gallifrey, etc. - because either way, almost all of them have significantly different histories compared to their "N-Space" counterparts. Although I, again, can't definitively say what I think the Warrior's reality actually is without having all the info down somewhere, two things from Dust Devil have particularly caught my attention:


 * a) Unlike its Genesis of the Daleks equivalent, the scene in which the Fourth Doctor contemplates touching the two wires together does not, at any point, involve Gharman running into the room and telling the Doctor that Davros is going to stand trial. Why exactly Gharman doesn't appear is not specified within Dust Devil. Also, the conversation in Dust Devil's version of the "Do I Have the Right?" scene begins to differ before the point in the original conversation just before Gharman runs into the room.


 * b) When the Fourth Doctor reawakens on Gallifrey after being extracted from Skaro by Narvin and the other Time Lords, Narvin talks briefly about the Elixir of Life and how it was created by "a sect". This is clearly referencing the version of the Sisterhood of Karn from the Warrior's reality, although they are never referred to by such name (at least, based on my memory and what info I've gathered so far). Interestingly, Narvin states here that "the sect was wiped out when the Daleks devastated their world, but, an elixir remained". But at the end of Aftershocks, when the Warrior talks of seeing "future memories", Narvin says "perhaps I should speak to the sisters about that drink of theirs after all" - he's clearly referring to the Elixir of Life which caused the Fourth Doctor to regenerate into the Warrior, so it appears that "the sect" which was supposedly wiped out by the Daleks has come back sometime since the Fourth Doctor's regeneration into the Warrior. I'm wondering if the original destruction of "the sect" was an event from the 'old' Time War that existed prior to the Fourth Doctor trying to avert the creation of the Daleks.Thalek Prime Overseer ☎  08:47, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Interesting point on Gharman. I hadn't realised that. So something that occurred to me is that after the Doctor crosses the wires, time becomes all weird— I think "reeling" is the term used. What I now wonder is if this is supposed to be caused by the fact that this diverges from the main timeline (which some things already differ), or if it's just because the Doctor altered the timeline of the Daleks and hence the entire universe, starting a Time War. I'm beginning to think it might be the latter, in which case the way we cover the Sixth Doctor and Peri comes up again… if the Warrior's universe diverged before the crossing of the wires, then it would make sense that they aren't from N-Space but a future of the Fourth Doctor in this story, hence "an aberrant timeline". It's worth noting the Warrior says there were other aberrant versions of himself though. Oh, but this is exactly the problem we encountered before… I still stand by my prior comment:


 * Due to the unclear nature of the divergence, and the fact that these individuals have different fates, the Fourth Doctor, Sarah and Harry should be given separate pages. It is unclear just where the Sixth Doctor and Peri belong, so for now the events of this story should be on their main pages under an alternate timeline header saying they were from "an aberrant timeline of the Warrior's universe". I also think the unclear nature of the Warrior's universe, or at the very least the matter of Gharman should be explained on its page, probably behind the scenes.


 * I have a whole lot of opinions on the issues Epsilon brings up about Donna's World, but I don't feel that this is the place to discuss it, and, despite all the discussion above, I also don't think it's quite an apt analogy to the Warrior's universe anyway. Chubby Potato ☎  10:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not able to at the moment, but looking over the summary it seems there are some parts that may be worth re-examining, such as the conversation with Thayla and the encounter with Miss Brown. Perhaps you can note anything of interest when listening, Thalek Prime Overseer. Chubby Potato ☎  10:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * At this point, I've finished going through Dust Devil for info regarding the state of the Warrior's reality. I've just started on Aftershocks, but it might take me two weeks or so to get through it and The Difference Office. I've realised that my notes have effectively begun to include everything from Genesis' stories, as I've been trying to understand better what the Fourth Doctor's attempt to stop the creation of the Daleks has done to time in this reality, which is one of the big challenges here. I understand your eagerness for this discussion to be resolved soon, Epsilon - as am I - but I'm trying to be as thorough with my notes as possible, to prevent myself from potentially missing anything that could alter the course of the discussion. For now, I can at least mention some extra points of interest from Dust Devil.


 * Firstly, to address some of Chubby Potato's previous comments. The Fourth Doctor touching the two wires together causes a "temporal shockwave", a bigger one than the Fourth Doctor anticipated. He later describes this to Narvin as "the cycle of cause and effect seemed to be tearing itself apart, a gap opening up in the causality itself", to which Narvin responds with "like a war? In time?". In other words, the Fourth Doctor touching the two wires together causes him to experience the Time War.


 * Secondly, an important note from the scene where the aberrant Sixth Doctor meets Miss Brown. She explains that, as a result of the Fourth Doctor's attempt to stop the creation of the Daleks, "the universe cracked. A million timelines, a million possibilities, sparked into flame and died. And in one of them, was you" - the "you" here is the aberrant Sixth Doctor. While, as this discussion has already established, the Doctor Who multiverse has particularly inconsistent physics, if the Doctor of War reality was merely an alternate timeline diverging from N-Space, would these "million possibilities" even exist? If it were a divergent timeline, rather than a parallel universe, then wouldn't this reality have been a complete carbon copy of N-Space if the Fourth Doctor hadn't tried to avert the creation of the Daleks? We've already got some kind of evidence that this isn't the case - namely, Gharman's conspicuous absence from the 'Do I Have the Right?' scene.


 * Although, it's also worth noting that Miss Brown says to the aberrant Sixth Doctor that he "should have been the Doctor once. But in the new reality, you're an aberration. A remnant." This seems to indicate that the aberrant Sixth Doctor, who is basically identical to the "N-Space" Sixth Doctor, is what the Fourth Doctor of the Doctor of War reality should have become, until the Fourth Doctor touched the two wires together.


 * Finally, while I've still got most of Aftershocks to get through still, I watched Genesis of the Daleks for the first time a week ago, and was confused when the Fourth Doctor ended up destroying the Dalek incubators in the end anyway. In "N-Space", this doesn't cause the same time-breaking nightmare that occurs in the Doctor of War reality, and the Daleks themselves seem completely unfazed by the destruction of the incubators in Genesis of the Daleks, as they're able to get mass-production facilities for growing Dalek mutants active even after the incubators are destroyed. The key difference, it seems, in the Doctor of War reality, is that the Fourth Doctor accidentally leaves the Time Ring behind on Skaro, allowing the Daleks, Kaleds and Thals to find it and master time travel at least thousands of years way before the Daleks develop time travel tech in "N-Space". I think this is what catastrophically breaks the Doctor of War reality, rather than the Fourth Doctor just touching the two wires - that event was merely the catalyst that allowed for the event that actually rewrote the Doctor of War reality, and rewrote the Doctor of War Time War so that it started way earlier than it originally did.


 * I cannot yet 100% verify this last point, as I have yet to finish my notes on Aftershocks, but I think it's worth noting nonetheless. I should also mention that I think we shouldn't immediately write off Aftershocks for occurring in some alternate version of the Warrior's reality, as the ending implies that it is actually a part of the Doctor of War reality that has simultaneously happened and has yet to happen.Thalek Prime Overseer ☎  23:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)


 * In response to your query on why the Fourth Doctor touching the wires in Genesis had no repercussions, here is the answer. At the point in time when the Doctor had to choose, the only Daleks that existed were prototypes. The first proper Daleks were still in incubation. When he didn't destroy it then, it gave them time to finish their incubation. By the time he did destroy the chamber, the first wave of Daleks were already active. At that point, they could create more of themselves, so all the Doctor ended up doing was delaying their rise to power. DarkXaven ☎  23:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)


 * These are good findings, Thalek. They do seem to imply the Warrior's universe is a separate reality altogether, and I think those lines about the aberrant Sixth Doctor are key. It might sound silly to have "an alternate timeline of a parallel universe", but this in fact plays part of the plot in Aftershocks. Without going in depth, I don't think Aftershocks and The Difference Office really offer much more in terms of this discussion, though maybe you'll spot something I didn't. Chubby Potato ☎  06:48, 24 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Brief update: I've finished noting down the entirety of Aftershocks. Unsurprisingly, there doesn't seem to be any info that may be useful for this discussion, as it does indeed appear to be set within an alternate timeline of the main Doctor of War reality, aside from the very last scene - the obscurity of which is probably worth keeping in mind.


 * I'd still like to thoroughly analyse The Difference Office before we consider wrapping up this discussion, however. As ChubbyPotato's already mentioned, there are lines in that story that explicitly link to Dust Devil, which has already been of significant help in this discussion, and has built upon Dust Devil's story too. I'll try not to take too long, but as I've already got the entirety of Aftershocks in note form, as well as almost everything from Dust Devil (I left out a few bits regarding Aridius specifically in the Doctor of War reality, but I'm thinking of going through Dust Devil one last time and making sure I have absolutely everything - it won't take too long, anyway), I might as well repeat the process with this last story.Thalek Prime Overseer ☎  21:42, 8 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I've finished noting the entirety of The Difference Office. Perhaps unsurprisingly, nothing came up that might be useful for this discussion that hasn't already been mentioned. I'm doing a final listen of Dust Devil to note the rest of the info that I missed previously, but I don't think those extra notes will be useful for this discussion. However, I remember that, early in Dust Devil, on Gallia, the aberrant Doctor mentions to Peri the name of a location - the "Caverns of Loreisis" (I don't know how exactly it's spelt) - and a page for such a location doesn't currently exist. Although I can't be certain, this might indicate that there are no "Caverns of Loreisis" in N-Space, which could be an indication that the Doctor of War reality is a parallel universe, because there's a location in the Doctor of War reality that seemingly doesn't exist in N-Space, and if the Doctor of War reality were an alternate timeline of N-Space, the Caverns would probably exist in N-Space too.


 * Although, it could be possible that the Caverns of Loreisis are a location from the aberrant timeline that these aberrant versions of the Doctor, Peri, and the TARDIS are from. We don't know for how long the aberrations have been present in the "main" Doctor of War reality prior to the arrival of the aberrant Doctor, Peri and the TARDIS on Gallia, so the Caverns of Loreisis could be from the "main" Doctor of War reality, or they could be from the same aberrant timeline as the Doctor, Peri and the TARDIS. However, from another search on the wiki, I can't find a page on Gallia (or any other logical interpretation of the spelling), and although, once again, I can't be entirely sure, this might indicate that a planet called Gallia doesn't exist in N-Space, yet we know that a planet called Gallia exists in the "main" Doctor of War reality. There's also no indication that Gallia was simply spawned into existence as a side effect of the Fourth Doctor destroying the Dalek incubators. For these reasons, as well as those previously mentioned, it could be reasoned that the "main" Doctor of War reality should be covered as a parallel universe, rather than an alternate timeline.


 * One other thing I want to raise, however, is the question of how relevant any behind-the-scenes information is - in this case, the news posts by Big Finish on Doctor of War: Genesis. These posts describe the Doctor of War audios as occurring in an alternate timeline, rather than a parallel universe. I bring this up because I recall that the child Master that fought alongside the War Doctor in Titan Comics' Eleventh Doctor stories was eventually said to be from an aborted timeline by one of the comic producers, which, in conjunction to that Master's demise apparently being somewhat obscure, led to him being covered as an aborted timeline incarnation on this wiki. I'm wondering if similar logic applies here.Thalek Prime Overseer ☎  16:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Okay, so it's been a few months since this discussion had any updates. At this point, Doctor of War: Destiny has been out for just over two weeks. I've listened to its stories twice in full, and replayed the last 25 minutes or so of The Key To Key To Time a few dozen times over. While I still very much want to do notes on Destinys stories in the same way I have done notes on the stories in Genesis, I think it's worth mentioning that Destiny has significantly impacted the matter of this discussion.


 * I'm not yet familiar with the exact specific details (again, this is why I do my little note-making process), but what is very evident is that The Key To Key To Time outright confirms that the Warrior's universe is an entirely distinct universe from the "prime" universe, aka N-Space or whatever name is eventually decided upon for it. However, this doesn't automatically mean that this discussion should end, as this story also raises an implication that complicates this discussion even further: there's a possibility that the Doctor of War stories occur in separate universes from each other. We've already discussed that Aftershocks, from Genesis, seems to occur almost entirely in an "alternate timeline" of the Warrior's universe, although the ending is something that I've still not worked out and would like to spend time ruminating over it before this discussion ends. But the scene in The Key To Key To Time where the Warrior encounters a member of the Collective Victorious that is some remnant of an alternate reality version of Romana is where this implication comes from. Some of her lines include:


 * "You've joined our ranks many a time, Warrior. Though not this iteration I fancy. You've lost your fight. Look at you. Blind old man, the same haggled face you wore all those years ago."


 * "It has been an awfully long time. Or perhaps you never met me in this life. I was forged in this war, Warrior. Forged by you."


 * I've thought about the lines of this alternate Romana a lot, and I don't think her lines are outright referring to the other Doctor of War stories. But it's a possibility I've been thinking about for a while. There's a lot of multidimensional stuff going on in The Key To Key To Time, which also complicates this, but it's the lines from this alternate Romana that have stood out to me the most so far. What do you all think?Thalek Prime Overseer ☎  12:39, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

I have the set but haven't listened to it yet, so I'd like to do so before I definitively form a stance. Maybe have both The Warrior's universe (possibly renamed, I think "reality" might be better, and in the plural?) and the Warrior cover the possible multitudes of realities he exists in. Though, are you saying this confirms the earlier idea that even the pre-Warrior events take place in another universe? I'll have to see for myself, and I'll come back here. However I will share this sandbox I made partially inspired by this discussion on the different natures of alternate realities; where, if at all, would you say the Warrior's reality fits into it? Is it a "parallel universe" thing, an "alternate timeline" thing, both or neither? Chubby Potato ☎  12:52, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * So a few minor notes, having just read this massive discussion. One, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the mention of "Gallia" and "Caverns of Loreisis" should move our needle either way. Stories mention new locations all the time. Two, just to note, there's no such real world terminology as "timeline" that's not colloquial so there was never any point in trying to be precise about it. Physics doesn't really use the term. And most importantly, I feel like the whole parallel universe/alternate timeline discussion is a red herring in the first place, since it didn't consult the actual pages for these things. (Ironically enough, I think the quote Overseer gave above actually supports this being an alternative timeline more than it does a parallel universe!) Is there actual policy written down about when to split pages based on timeline vs parallel universe? I'm not seeing it, and T:DAB OTHER suggests you do it for both. Najawin ☎  18:02, 13 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Agreed on Gallia and etc. This conversation evolved from "what to do about these characters" to "how do we handle the Warrior's universe" in general. The standard more recently has been that unless the individual can be considered "another character" (which is subject to interpretation sometimes) and/or has a significantly different history, they'll get a separate page whereas otherwise they just go on the #Other realities section of the main page. This is something I would like to be codified into policy (perhaps the in-progress T:MERGE?) in a forum thread, I think it'd be good to have a definitive standard on that and a system using redirects and anchors for the more minor counterparts of characters. Chubby Potato ☎  18:28, 13 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Somewhat unrelated, but since the two of you are here, I'd love your input at Tardis talk:Temporary forums. Could help with movement on the issue. Najawin ☎  19:01, 13 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I should mention that I've read the wiki's pages on parallel universes and alternate timelines a lot, and I ended up not bringing them up because - and I don't know if it's just me - but a of the info seems very contradictory (e.g. ""All possibilities" occurred across the sum of all existing parallel realities, meaning some parallel realities resembled each other with 'points of divergence', similar to an alternate timeline." I wasn't sure how to bring those pages up because both pages seem to contain contradictory info that is all equally valid.


 * But more importantly, I should also have mentioned that, in The Key To Key To Time, the Warrior's universe is explicitly destroyed by the Collective Victorious, which should have some kind of big weighting on the discussion?


 * Also, on a last note, I'd say that the vast majority of characters in Doctor of War should get their own pages. There's definitely a line to be drawn (e.g. I don't think the alternate versions of Sarah Jane and Harry from Dust Devil and The Key To Key To Time should have separate pages, but I'm not so sure about the aberrant Sixth Doctor from Dust Devil). But I've already mentioned this, so it's a bit redundant.Thalek Prime Overseer ☎  18:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello TARDIS wiki. Should the permutations of the Sixth Doctor and Peri Brown have their own pages? Did I create the pages already? Yes. But they are up for deletion until this talk page elbaborates on the subject. They, like Clara’s echoes, are not the main universe individuals, and they are like Peri Brown’s permutations. They diverge enough (I sound like the marvel wiki, I know) from their N-space counterparts. Anyways, the articles for Sixth Doctor and Romana’s androids are similar to Fourth Doctor android from Planet of Evil. If androids of the Doctor exist and have their own articles, why can’t the androids in Doctor of War have their own articles like the androids of N-Space? The articles (not counting T;BOUND) do not violate any rules of the Wiki (concerning the androids at the least and for Borusa). I have not talked in these kind of talk oages before, so I apologize if I am not exactly the best at it. The permutations are different enough from their N-Space counterparts to have their own pages, and the androids, for the most part, do not violate any rules. Thank you for listening. And I apologize if I damaged anyone else’s message by mistake. I don’t know if I did. User:PepsiMagnet ☎  18:40, 19 October 2022


 * Well T:BOUND is the policy in question. Because we're still discussing whether these characters should have their own page or not here on this talk page, pages for them can't be created yet. (The characters in question are Four, Sarah and Harry in the Genesis scene, and the "abberrant" Six and Peri.) That said, the android duplicates seen in The Difference Office are definitely different individuals and can have pages. They are fully residents of the Warrior's universe, and I believe User:Najawin was mistaken in placing a tag on them, since they are irrelevant in this conversation.


 * Back to the matter at hand: we now have the new Tardis:Merging policy. It even has a section on characters from alternate realities, whose rule of thumb says: " if there's no more to say on the separate page than what can already be stated on the prime version's 'Alternate timelines' subsection, it's not worth creating a separate page for the alternate-timeline version." Also: "Other factors which might tip the scale towards a separate page include interaction between the alternative character and their 'prime' counterpart, which is hard to discuss on a single page, or the alternative version being given their own name."


 * I am leaning towards the interpretation this provides that the Warrior's universe versions of the relevant characters can satisfactorily be discussed on subsections of their main pages, as they are not sufficiently distinct characters from their main versions. There's nothing more that can be said at Sarah Jane Smith (The Warrior's universe) than at Sarah Jane Smith (though I would suggest this heading be changed to "other realities" because of the timey wimey ambiguity of this sort of thing). I am more inclined to possibly give Six and Peri their own pages, because not only do they interact with the Warrior's universe/the Warrior themselves, but the Warrior makes a line saying they were merely one set of many abberant versions of himself/his associates that appeared in his universe after the Genesis Incident. I'm still getting to The Key To Key To Time though, so I'm not sure if this has anything else important. Chubby Potato ☎  01:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If someone would like to flesh out the android pages to being decent pages I have no qualms with the delete tags being removed, though I'm not sure if T:DAB OTHER applies? The pages as written absolutely should not have been created as they simply have no content. Najawin ☎  01:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * This much is true, I meant (with no offense) that the pages' deletion rationale was wrong. As they are, they don't have much to stand on, so I'll fix that. And as a kind note to new user User:PepsiMagnet, if you create a new page it should have more than an infobox and categories. Stubs are okay sometimes, but the page still needs to have content. Chubby Potato ☎  01:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Having not listened to the audio I was unaware of whether they were analogues or not. But, again, I don't mind them being removed. No worries. Najawin ☎  01:36, 9 November 2022 (UTC)