Forum:Discontinuity revisited

To bring back a old topic - should the Discontinuity, Plot Holes, Errors section be tidied up or just deleted in general? Some pages, such as The End of Time seems to have massive of information in that section. Should the section be deleted altogether ot just have a general tidy to and leave the main points in? Mini-mitch 16:41, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm in favour of keeping it, but clearing it up (and keeping a tight hold on it), leaving the points that are production errors or continuity problems. Any explanations that have things like 'maybe, probably, perhaps etc' can just be removed. Also anything that's got conversation styling to it should also be removed, the articles are about presenting information, not pondering ideas from people that's that the Howling is there for. --Tangerineduel 16:51, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is an issue about which I have a strong opinion: I vote for complete deletion. An absolute, write-it-in-the-Manual-of-Style, zero-tolerance ban on discontinuity points on story pages. The story pages should tell us only what's in the episode itself, and describe the production, broadcast, and later home video release of that episode. Any narrative "problems" are better noted on an individual in-universe topic page itself. That the Doctor uses the wrong button on the TARDIS console to open the door, for example, belongs at the Doctor's TARDIS, not in a section under the episode where he makes the "mistake". After all, story pages are real world, out-of-universe pages. How can there be "discontinuity" in the real world? Continuity problems, to the extent that they are noteworthy, only exist in-universe. Yes, the discussion of them can only be told from an out of universe perspective — that's why you put them in italics or in a behind-the-scenes section — but they apply to the in-universe topic, not to a real world discussion about the story. Looking at it perhaps more simply, the continuity error doesn't apply to the episode as a whole, just to one topic within the episode. Thus these notes firmly belong elsewhere.


 * A separate problem is the size of these sections. They're often the biggest parts of articles here, because many editors think the section is little more than a forum page, where they can post claims and counter-claims about an issue. (Hell, I've done that in the past, myself.) Or possibly they attract so much activity because we've made it easier to note continuity problems by including these sections. Who'd want to do the hard work of going to a topic page and figuring out how to phrase things within that article, if all you have to do is add a bullet point to the episode page?


 * And yet for all the words these sections contain, very few of them actually convey any sort of hard information. When you frame something in the negative — i.e., Discontinuity — you tend to get negative responses. We are actively inviting people to pick episodes apart with these sections, and that's not the point we're after. Eliminating only the points that are couched with the words "maybe", "probably" and "perhaps" won't eliminate the dubious points being made. Just because an entry doesn't say "maybe" doesn't mean the point isn't iffy. (As a total aside, I actually prefer phrasing which uses the words "maybe", "possibly" and "perhaps", because at least the writer is being honest. It's useful for readers to know that a point is uncertain.)


 * Nevertheless, the sensible course of action is to eliminate discontinuity sections from story pages. This would ensure the length of that section isn't greater than the length of the rest of the article combined. Remember, our goal is to provide a concise guide to the DWU — not a long-winded, often speculative one. Discontinuity notes belong only on individual topic pages in a concise, italicized note at the bottom of the article, or directly underneath the problematic point.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 18:19, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

So should we take a vote then?Mini-mitch 18:46, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Delete the Section Keep it and Do a Major Tidy Up
 * Mini-Mitch 18:43, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Delton Menace 21:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 *  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 23:47, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Leave it as it is

Create a New Page for Major Error
 * Delton Menace 21:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC) (alternate vote)

I am with Mini-mitch here, the discontinuity section is known to become a place of pointless so-called 'errors' (when, in fact, someone doesn't use logic or fails to notice something simple for an explanation), large, flooding discussions and arguments, picking episodes apart, and detracting attention from the main article of the story. The disconinuity section seems silly to me - we're supposed to be fans, not perfectionists. If anything, there should be special pages for disconinuity alone - and only very big discontinuity, not little things. Delton Menace 21:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I agree with you, DM, that we should delete the section from story pages. But I strongly disagree with this notion of creating a new page for a major error. How would we judge what a "major" error is? How major does it have to be to get its own page?


 * In my view, the important bit is whether it's a) easily observable and b) written about in more than two independent sources. And there's only one bit of discontinuity in all of Doctor Who that has risen to that standard, I think: the UNIT dating controversy. More to the point, it's a logical outgrowth of the article on UNIT, moved to its own page to control the length of the UNIT article itself. And even more importantly, it's actually an in-universe thing, thanks to a reference in The Sontaran Strategem.


 * I definitely do not feel we need to start creating pages every time we perceive an error. Any discontinuity notes must be a part of the articles whose subjects are involved in the error. This is vital, because the information must be easily discoverable by our readers. Making up titles like Different ways the Doctor opens the TARDIS doors, or some such, is just counter-intuitive. Again, notes should be made on the topic page itself, not in a section at a story page or on some conjecturally-titled page no one is going to find.


 * A good, basic rule of thumb is that if you're so unable to write about a continuity error on a topic's page that you have to create a new page, it almost certainly doesn't belong on the wiki. That is, if it's long enough to require its own page, you probably have interjected some of your own thoughts into the matter, and are not just reporting an evident error.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 23:47, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * For a new page, I was thinking along the lines of Discontinuity in Doctor Who, Discontinuity in Torchwood etc. And under each episode, which would be a separate heading - all the major errors etc will be listed. People can then use the discussion on the page to discuss the reason\solution for this Error\Discontinuity is Mini-mitch 00:00, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tried this, created a page and show it to Tangerineduel, who said it would be too much trouble, i feel it would be easier just to delete the section completely Mini-mitch 17:43, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Change it to Production errors and strip out other info
 * Fair argument CzechOut. But I do still feel there is a place for genuine 'Production errors'; things like boom mikes in shot (such as in Warriors' Gate - When Romana and Adric are under the MZ), Daleks colliding with scenery, jump cuts (Remembrance of the Daleks - Baseball bat in Doctor's hand in funeral home) and other things like this. --Tangerineduel 12:58, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * The only thing is, I feel that people will still continue to fill up with space with errors etc... A new page (as mentioned above), I feel is a better way to go about things, and put a link to it on each page.But the decision is up to the vote or to you and other admins Mini-mitch 13:05, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Specifically labeling it as 'Production errors' would allow us to specify that the errors are, well production based, continuity wouldn't enter into it. I just feel this information is somewhat worth it (for all the jokes about wobbly sets there aren't that many actual stories with wobbly sets, the Errors section is where this info would be found). --Tangerineduel 13:27, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, absolutely, TD. Production errors are out-of-universe, and therefore obviously fair game on an out-of-universe story page. However, we do need perhaps a stronger wording, because some people will think "production errors" can include mistakes on the production team's part with respect to narrative continuity. The problem, here, is that the word "continuity" has both a narrative significance (as in canon) and a production one, as controlled by the continuity supervisor. So what's the unmistakable phrase here? "Production errors" could work, as long as the manual of style is altered to explain it. But here are some alternatives to consider: "Things that slipped past the continuity supervisor", "Behind-the-scenes gaffes", "Recording errors" or "Filming errors". I kind of prefer one of these last two, because they clearly distance themselves from discussion of the script, which is a part of the production process. "Recording errors" might be the better of the two, as it can be used to encompass sound as well as visual errors, and because, of course, the 1963 version was mostly not filmed, but video recorded.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 16:39, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Manual of Style/Layout guides will need editing whichever way we go, so I don't mind rewording them to make it clear.
 * Recording errors would be okay. But would recording errors be fine to encompass stuff like post production errors like my above Remembrance of the Daleks error (which is technically speaking an editing error) as recording implies errors made during the actual recording of the story. --Tangerineduel 06:57, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Production errors vs Discontinuity
Here's a comparison on two pages Remembrance of the Daleks and An Unearthly Child.

On both pages I whittled down the discontinuity to actual errors in production which leaves 3 errors for Remembrance and 2 for An Unearthly Child. I would really prefer to see this sort of thing, rather than completely wiping the section out, as there is still some useful information left when presented as production errors (plus now the info isn't lost in amongst everything else). --Tangerineduel 15:46, March 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like this idea and feel we should go along with this, and announce that that section is for Production Errors Only and leave the discussion page open to discuss Discontinuity, plot Hole etc. Mini-mitch 17:16, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it looks much, much cleaner as production errors. Delton Menace 00:10, March 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Alrighty, I've changed the Tardis:Format for Television Story Entries guide from Discontinuity to Production errors and re-written the information for it. Any discussion about discontinuity of the story can take place in Forum:The Howling (as noted on the Format for TV stories page) as the article's talk page should be used to discuss the editing of the article rather than debate about elements of the story. I've begun working through the stories editing out the discontinuity starting with An Unearthly Child. --Tangerineduel 07:48, March 25, 2010 (UTC)