Talk:Tenth Doctor/Archive 3

Doctor Loved Rose?
Nowhere on screen does the Doctor ever admit to being in love with Rose. This needs to come out of the article. Someone please fix it? 214.27.58.2talk to me 15:31, January 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that their so-called love is debatable. Given The Doctor's mindset after the Time War, I don't believe he was in love with Rose. 75.141.226.87talk to me 21:24, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

The Tenth had gotten over that to a point, and he attempts to admit it in Journey's End, but is interrupted. Cult Of Skaro ☎  21:28, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Er...Does someone need to get up to date on their Who? Cult Of Skaro ☎  17:38, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

He NEVER admitted it on screen...it is still fan speculation. Frankly, that belongs on the forums, not on the encylopedic page. On the pages, we need to stick with what has actually happened, not what some fans desire to happen. 214.27.58.2talk to me 07:50, January 5, 2013 (UTC)

No, it is NOT speculation. Unless passionate kissing and pining after her after she leaves and trying to say it in Doomsday doesn't count. Cult Of Skaro ☎  15:01, January 5, 2013 (UTC)

The only time Ten and Rose kissed was when Cassandra kissed him. The "passionate kiss" you are likely referring to was between the meta-crisis creation, which was established on screen as not being exactly like Ten, either physically or emotionally. 180.94.85.2talk to me 02:16, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but Cult of Skaro is absolutely right, Ten attempts to say it at the end of Doomsday, but the TARDIS' cross-universal thingy cuts out so he fails, and Meta-Crisis Ten, who has the same memoires of the real Ten, completes the sentence in Journey's End and that is why Rosee and Meta-Crisis Ten kiss. MrSiriusBlack ☎  21:07, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly...what Ten attempts to say is cut off...and not heard. He does not say anything on screen. Therefore, it is speculation by fans. Also, 180 above was me, just not logged in. Whosethebestwho ☎  02:03, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Okay...so just because he doesn't explicitly say right out, "I love you" but tries to, kisses her, even makes it clear that it's three words he wanted to say, even though there's no one with any DOUBT even that those words were "I love you," we can't include it because he doesn't say it right out. Right. Speculation. Ahem. Cult Of Skaro ☎  02:15, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Fact: Ten does not try to kiss Rose. Fact: Ten does not state that he loves Rose. Any deviation from those facts is speculation. You may believe, in the bottom of your heart that they had passionate relationship...you may desire above all else for that to be true. But it is speculation, pure and simple. Whosethebestwho ☎  02:25, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

He attempts to say it. It's clearly implied that he's trying to say it. Or do you have some secret theory on what he actually tried to say? Cult Of Skaro ☎  02:30, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * How do you know he's trying to say it though? I could say that his leaving Rose behind twice and his relationship with Reneitte shows that he didn't love Rose. As long as it's open for speculation, it's not allowed on in-universe pages. Shambala108 ☎  03:57, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Wow. I can;'t believe I manbaged yto kjeep cool after reading the thickness above. No, The Doctor didn't have feelings at all for Reinette, she loved him. It is too darn obvious that The Doctor loved Rose and that was what he was trying to say, so keep it in the article. MrSiriusBlack ☎  21:05, January 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just want to point out that the dalliance with Reinette is immediately after Rose's boyfriend hits the TARDIS. Perhaps there was a subconscious bit of jealousy there, prompting him to get closer, otherwise. In any case, the tragedy of the relationship between him and Rose is he dern well knows better, he just can't help himself. A definitive declaration would have ruined the character building. (What I find interesting is that Eleven still feels guilt - the question is, for what exactly?) The Ninth Doctor says it best, though, when he says she looks good, for a human. He's just not getting over the species thing. Leaving her behind twice - no, really, sending her away at least three times – doesn't really mean anything to whether he loves her or not. Loving someone else doesn't either. He would really have to say it. So, what's the best we can do, given our constraints? Put what we actually saw happened there, rather than adding editorial viewpoint. –-ComicBookGoddess ☎  15:58, March 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure which posts you're replying to, but speculation is not allowed on this wiki (see Forum:Hypothesis and speculation and Forum:Speculation - What is and what isn't?). If you don't have an in-universe source for the information, it can't be added. You might also want to check out Tardis:No personal attacks as well. Shambala108 ☎  02:13, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

You utter IDIOT! Want a valid source? WATCH Doomsday (TV story)DOOMSDAY]] AND JOURNEY'S END! THIS IS A VALID POINT, LISTEN TO THIS LOWLY ANON USER, PLEASE!!! Apologies for the insult and no offence, but really, I PROTEST against this STUPIDITY! Get up to date on your who or leave Tardis Data Core, Shambala! 94.9.1.78talk to me 21:31, January 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll reiterate what Shambala said to MrSiriusBlack: "speculation is not allowed on this wiki (see Forum:Hypothesis and speculation and Forum:Speculation - What is and what isn't?). If you don't have an in-universe source for the information, it can't be added." While it may appear to you that it's obvious, according to the rules of this wiki, it's speculation. Yes, I will agree, it is implied, and according to my own opinion, he did love her but couldn't quite express it, but it is never explicitly stated so we can't include it. Unless the Doctor ever talks specifically about how he loved Rose (which is unlikely at this point, but not impossible), any information on his emotions and feelings for Rose is purely speculative. I'd recommend you base your argument on policy, as apposed to your own personal opinions. And also as Shambala stated: You might want to check out Tardis:No personal attacks as well. SmallerOnTheOutside  ☎  00:13, January 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Incivility will not be allowed on our talk pages. Attack the point, not the person.  94.9.1.78 has just earned a permanent ban.  MrSiriusBlack: you are right on the edge of being blocked for your comments, and have escaped merely because your phrasing can be construed as an attack on the point.  Nevertheless, no one likes to have their opinions described as "thick".  The English language has a huge vocabulary.  Please use other words to describe displeasure.


 * All participants to this conversation should read and abide by Tardis:No personal attacks. Now.


 * Furthermore, users are advised to use italics or bolding or both to indicate emphasis. Please do not use ALL CAPS, as this is generally construed as shouting.  01:22: Thu 24 Jan 2013

Now that we've had that little commercial interruption, we can get back on point. And I think it's clear that we need to come up with language that admits of both possibilities here. A common sense reading of the end of Journey's End is that Rose, at least, believed the Doomsday sentence was going to end with words that expressed the sentiment of "I love you". We don't actually need to be told what was said to conclude that Rose was romantically attracted to Ten, and that a part of Ten that was passed on to the Meta-Crisis Ten was reciprocally attracted. The last shot we have of them is of the M-C Ten grabbing her hand romantically, not the other way around.

A lot of people misinterpret this wiki's admonition against speculation to mean that a thing must be said in dialogue to be non-speculative. That's not true. Doctor Who is a visual and auditory experience. We can see things that aren't spoken of, and hear things that are never named. We don't need to be told that Tito is singing "La donna è mobile" in The Tenth Planet to know that he is doing so. We can assert that Brightwell & Hyman are a firm that makes matches because of what we see in The Angels Take Manhattan — not because of what we hear in dialogue.

And so it is with the Rose/Ten stuff. He obviously acts differently towards her than Martha or Donna. Both of the later companions acknowledge that. He runs toward Rose in The Stolen Earth in a way that he does not when reunited with Donna in Partners in Crime or Martha in The Poison Sky. He teases Rose about the way she tried to get in touch with him after the faux regeneration passes. Rose clearly believes he meant to say he loved her or she wouldn't have asked that question in quite the way she did.

Do we say that he romantically loved her? I'm with Shambala that we can't go that far. But do we ignore the other, sometimes non-verbal cues that are there? I don't see how we do that, either. The key is to report what we see, all of what we see, and only what we see.

It is undoubtable that Martha believes Ten was in a romantic relationship with Rose. It's clear that she considered herself the "rebound" chick, which only connotes a romantic relationship with Rose. Martha leaves him because she is not Rose and therefore does not command his romantic attention. It is extraordinarily clear that he did pine for her at many points from The Runaway Bride onward. It is also clear that he did not pine for Martha in the same way — nor that the Doctor pined for anyone in quite that same way.

We may not be able to say that he ever said he loved her. But we must say that his relationship with Rose was extraordinary, and demonstrably romantic. 01:59: Thu 24 Jan 2013


 * ROSE: "I love you!"
 * TEN: "Quite right too. And, if it's my last chance to say it, Rose Tyler -" [Tardis thingy cut out].

There's the evidence, from Doomsday.

Meanwhile, at Journey's End, Meta-Crisis Ten whispers the end of real ten's sentence from Doomsday, and she kisses Meta Crisis.

Isn't that, Shambala and CzechOut and other disagree-ers above, a valid point? MrSiriusBlack ☎  15:54, January 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure it's a valid point. So is Ten's relationship with Reinette and his dumping of Rose back in Pete's World in Journey's End when he could have kept her with him forever. Shambala108 ☎  19:01, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

One, Reinette's love for The Doctor was NOT reciprocated, and two he had to return Rose there because she had broken through the universe and in order to seal the hole again the Doctor hsd to return her. Plus Meta-Crisis had committed genocide so The Doctor didn't want him as a companion, but he could live a normal life on the Paralell Earth with Rose. MrSiriusBlack ☎  19:58, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

MrSiriusBlack is right, Shambala108. Go watch Army of Ghosts, Doomsday, The Stolen Earth and Journey's End and then tell us that Ten did not love Rose. 94.2.69.0talk to me 20:11, January 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * ROSE: "I love you!"
 * TEN: "Quite right too. And, if it's my last chance to say it, Rose Tyler -" [Tardis thingy cut out].
 * There's the evidence, from Doomsday.

Yes, but of what is it the evidence? It's evidence that he did not say he loved her. It's evidence that there was a missed opportunity for one last moment of connection between them, and that this failure made her bawl and him let loose a tear.

It's carefully written to make you think that he was about to say he loved her. The complementary moment in Journey's End seems to reinforce this. We can easily believe that Rose cares so much about the issue in Journey's End because she's convinced he was going to say "I love you". She needs to know what he was going to say, and it's not likely she would care were it not that she suspected he was going to make some sort of romantic declaration in her direction. But we cannot say in the article that he loved her because we never hear it from Ten or Handy. Whatever it was, she responded in a physically intimate way when Handy whispers in her ear.

But it could have been just him admitting that she thought she was hot.

Handy needn't have said "I love you" to get her to kiss him. Let's face it, there are tons of things a guy can say to a girl to get her to kiss him. Especially if that guy looks like David Tennant, and the girl in question is the sure-Mickey-I've-screwed-with-your-emotions-but-I'll-spend-the-night-with-you-in-a-Cardiff-hotel Rose Tyler. We'd like to think it's "true love", because that would be a noble end to the Rose story. But there's enough in her character to let us know it doesn't have to be. After all, Ten gets her to blush awkwardly just by saying the word sexy in The Christmas Invasion.

This article, this wiki, cannot say that Ten (or Handy) loved Rose. It can and should come very close to that. But it can't go, um, all the way. 22:57: Fri 25 Jan 2013

He tried to say he loved her, and bloody hell is it obvious that he loved her. and 'Handy', The Meta-Crisis Doctor, obviously had the same feelings for her because they went off to grow old together on Pete's World. And the "Quite right too" bit in Ten's speech at the end of Doomsday also pointed in the he-loves-her direction. MrSiriusBlack ☎  15:19, January 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * MrSiriusBlack, how do you know what was what he tried to say? As Shambala108 said up-thread see Forum:Hypothesis and speculation and Forum:Speculation - What is and what isn't? for our previous discussions in this area.
 * We can theorise and speculate on what he tried to say, but it's not in dialogue.
 * As CzechOut says we can approach the idea that the Tenth Doctor or Handy had affections for Rose but if it's not there in the narrative text then it's not there. --Tangerineduel / talk 14:10, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Again, Handy - sorry, Meta-Crisis - loved Rose as they went off to grow old together on Pete's World. MrSiriusBlack ☎  16:49, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * We're getting a bit sidetracked. For the sake of this article, it doesn't matter what Handy's feelings for Rose were. He has his own article, this one is just for Ten. Shambala108 ☎  17:40, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I've always interpreted 10's feeling for Rose as more of an attachment kinda thing. In the sam way that 11 cared for Amy; she was his first companion, and the first thing his eyes fell upon. It's the same way that 8 was attracted to Grace, or 4 to Sarah, or 6 to Peri. They were his closest friends, and he was attached to them. But that's just my thoughts. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 16:15, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

People, people, this is the 21st century, Doctor Who doesn't have to be all sciency anymore, go and read the New Virgin Adventures of the 1990s, Ten did love Rose and he did love Joan and Reinette - The Batestr

Renegade?
Suddenly we're calling the Doctor this title. Now how can this be possible if the Time Lord society is GONE? They'd HAVE to be around to make him a renegade; you can't be one without something to be a renegade of, ER if I'M understanding my own explanation that is. But the gist of it is understandable, right? If someone can make more sense of what I said, please do!

THANK YOU!!! (50.44.49.90talk to me 08:54, February 10, 2013 (UTC))
 * I understand what you're trying to say, but he's been called a renegade since the old series, so it's not really a "sudden" thing to call him a renegade. We still call George Washington a "revolutionary", even though the government against which he revolted no longer exists in the United States.  We still call Terrance Dicks a "script editor", even though he hasn't script edited anything in years. If you want, you can think of it like a title that a person once held.


 * Or you could say that the Doctor is absolutely still a renegade, since he committed the ultimate act of rebellion by committing genocide against his own people. Indeed, it's appropriate you've put this question on the Tenth Doctor's page, because we actually saw him do it again. So the Doctor has condemned his race to death — twice.  If that's not a renegade, we need to rewrite the definition in the dictionary.   19:45: Wed 13 Feb 2013

Headers
The piped links in the headers are all jazzed up. Someone with access needs to fix this. 04:13, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose you mean "Making new Matthew Finnegan|friends and enemies"? That was because of a recent bot Czech (or rather CzechBot) ran, which wasn't perfect, judging by the fact that one link had the pipes taken away but not the link name, and the other stayed completely intact. According to policy, there should be no links in headers, so can someone please get rid of the link and "Matthew Finnegan|?" Thanks. [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 04:52, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Protected?
Why are we not allowed to edit the Tenth Doctor's page, I have lots of material about his solo comic adventures to give to the page.
 * It was to prevent edit wars and vandalism. If you have any questions, speak to Tangerineduel. He was the one who protected the page. [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 13:08, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that. Article has been unlocked. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:24, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Template:Cleanup
With the exception of the season finales (which I honestly don't think CAN be cut down in description by that much due to their nature), most of the stuff from episodes pretty much are one or two paragraphs anyway (though some probably need a line break in the middle).

The stuff about the Doctor Who Ongoing comics I can barely read, and really do need attention, but I just don't see how the info about the episodes are all too long. If this is implying more of a "The Doctor had an adventure on X where he defeated Y." for a forty-five minute story, then no. I think the length of the recap would vary depending on how complex the story is, but maybe I'm missing something. -- Tybort (talk page) 23:20, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Resurrecting the 'Doctor Loved Rose?' topic, if I may
I have found something that someone on Facebook noticed in Doctor Who that reinforces the 'Ten Loved Rose "myth"'. It is this --> []. Another point. MrSiriusBlack ☎  17:58, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's still out-of-universe, though. Facebook is not valid source for in-universe articles.


 * It wouldn't matter even if RTD himself or David Tennant someday tell us that the Doctor loved Rose; we only use narrative information for in-universe articles. Shambala108 ☎  18:29, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

No, no, no, the photo is noticing a scene that happened in Doctor who - The Stolen Earth/Journey's End. MrSiriusBlack ☎  18:07, April 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Much better narrative evidence is when a Dalek asks the Ninth Doctor about saving the "woman you love", actually. --ComicBookGoddess ☎  04:42, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, precisely, that too. MrSiriusBlack ☎  08:09, April 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, it's still conjecture in any form of the word. In universe, the Doctor could deny and argue it himself if confronted, and no one would be able to gainsay him with his own words. (However, frankly, it would be somewhat out of character for him to allow another to force him to address it.) We need to respect the integrity of the ambiguity of the narrative. --ComicBookGoddess ☎  14:17, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

We need to respect the what what of the what now? MrSiriusBlack ☎  06:11, May 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * ComicBookGoddess means that this issue is deliberately left ambiguous by the writers, and we need to respect that in our articles.


 * RTD has left several issues as ambiguous, such as the Face of Boe, the Woman, and the Doctor's specific feelings for Rose. Shambala108 ☎  06:24, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

A fair point. I never knew that. MrSiriusBlack ☎  13:22, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

Drag yourself kicking and screaming into the 21st century Whovians. Doctor Who doesn't have to be entirely about science anymore. The Doctor is a man, not a cyborg. He's not immune to the word "Love". Take a look at his relationship with River. Back to the point, he is about to admit his true feelings for Rose at Bad Wolf Bay. But can't as he loses connection. User:The Batestr ☎  13:22, June 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * That is not how this wiki works. It has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting the Doctor to love someone. It has everything to do with how we present information on in-universe articles. If the story doesn't say it, neither do we. You have no in-universe proof of what he was going to say.


 * And I advise you to watch your tone. Criticizing someone who doesn't agree with you violates Tardis:No personal attacks. Shambala108 ☎  15:41, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Tenth incarnation with a source
Okay, so this is the third revert of that lead now in the last month, with no reason given each time. Is there an actual issue with stating a source which says "the Tenth Doctor is the tenth incarnation", when the initial edit summary adding this even points out how surprising an in-universe usage of "Tenth Doctor" is? -- Tybort (talk page) 15:04, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

The original (offending?) line:
 * The Tenth Doctor was, as identified by UNIT Australia's Captain Kath Braxton, the tenth incarnation of the renegade Time Lord known as the Doctor. (COMIC: The Age of Ice)

I did a bit of searching. The original line was added by User:CzechOut. It has been removed, like you said, three times in the last month, all by the same person, User:The Batestr, with no edit summary. I'll leave him a message on his talk page, but there's no reason why this info cannot be put back in. Shambala108 ☎  15:32, June 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * As a side note, a different editor has removed it on the 7th saying it's not "necessary to state". -- Tybort (talk page) 09:40, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

First humans to reach another world.

 * On his trip to Mars in 2059, The Doctor met the crew of Bowie Base One, the first humans in history to reach another world, led Adelaide Brooke, who he greatly inspired.

Apart from the awful English, this is demonstrably wrong, regardless of even the inconsistent continuity Doctor Who appears to have with manned Mars missions or if the Moon counts as a world. Just name essentially ANY human companion from the present or the past. And if the excuse is that they've arrived after 2059 in all instances, then how about Sarah Jane on 1911 Mars, or contemporary Kastria and the Crimson Heart along with Jo and Clyde Langer? One can imagine Genesis of the Daleks is set long before the 21st century too, though I suppose that could be speculation. -- Tybort (talk page) 22:24, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Cleverbot's Proof
Er, haha, I know that cleverbot is an extremely unreliable source, but, er, yeah, I'm just jokin around with this pic, I dunno. Feeling random. MrSiriusBlack ☎  08:28, August 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Seriously? --SOTO ☎ 08:44, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think both of you need to review Tardis:Discussion policy. Shambala108 ☎  14:57, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

"Just trying to diffuse the tension!" - George Weasley, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1 MrSiriusBlack ☎  09:57, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

In-universe identification as the Tenth
The citation for a UNIT officer calling him the "Tenth Doctor" was removed (and reverted) under the reasoning "Sounds like it is heading towards John Hurt there." In fact, the reason I scoured the revision history to put this back up was because of the ambiguity of Introducing John, and how an editor made the claim, regardless of what will happen in November — I'm in the same place as everyone else about actual knowledge — that Hurt is the actual Ninth Doctor, making similar edits for Eccleston and Smith. I readded the source to avoid speculation about Introducing John and his "placement" based mostly on what little we've seen and been told of Hurt in a released narrative, on top of the tenth incarnation being the tenth incarnation to, by Eleven's words at the end of The Name of the Doctor, at the very least use the name "doctor". -- Tybort (talk page) 17:26, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to put it on record, you are absolutely right that the info about Tennant being the Tenth is correct. We know nothing about Hurt as yet, and until we do, Tennant = Ten. Any further attempt by editors to imply that Eccleston is not nine, Tennant is not ten, and Smith is not eleven, may be seen as a violation of Tardis:Spoiler policy. When we know more, we will add more. Shambala108 ☎  17:57, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

My idea for an April Fools joke
I think that every page should be changed to a "___ is in the Zero Room." page as an April Fools prank. xD