Talk:Dust Devil (audio story)

Concerns on coverage
Need to preface this by stating that I haven't listened to Dust Devil or any of the other stories, but why are links being created to pages such as Fourth Doctor (Dust Devil)?

Surely the new timeline is a result of a point of divergence during Genesis of the Daleks, not an entirely new universe? So shouldn't the characters such as the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane be treated as the same as their "regular" counterparts up until the timeline split? 📯 📂 00:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Due to the element of time travel we cannot say with complete certainty that these characters had the exact timeline as the originals prior to the divergence. Any of their new adventures following the split could theoretically interfere with their individual past. Hence why it is a good idea to cover them on separate pages. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  00:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The Unbound stories take place in alternate universes, rather than alternate timelines. If someone had gone back in time and convinced the Fourth Doctor to change his decision, that would be an alternate timeline. That didn't happen here. The Doctor simply chose a different path than the one our Doctor did, which means a parallel universe. DarkXaven ☎  00:44, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * @DrWHOCorrieFan - that is a valid point, but also speculative, and probably won't be entirely useful.
 * @DarkXaven - while the other Unbound stories do indeed take place in alternates, it is not impossible for a new story to break that mould. And even though there was seemingly no catalyst for the divergence, it still appears to be a divergence, so there is merit in saying that they're the same up until the divergence. 📯 📂 01:14, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Also, the boxset summary does actually state:


 * (Emphasis mine)
 * Without listening to the story, it does appear from the evidence that there is a divergence point, not a wholly new universe. 📯 📂 01:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * If two universes diverge doesn't that create another universe? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  08:41, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Doctor Who Unbound has been brought back due to the popularity of Marvel's "What if?" and it follows the exact same setup - characters making different choices which create a wholly new universe within a large multiverse. These separate universes can occasionally interact. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  08:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I've listened to the story. It's pretty clear the Warrior's universe is not actually a parallel universe but an alternate timeline that diverges. Dust Devil is about the N-Space Sixth Doctor suffering from changes in the timeline catching up with him. I mean, maybe it's not the N-Space Doctor but one identical to him in every way shown… In either case it's a timeline of some sort and not an entirely separate universe. (Maybe The Warrior's timeline is a better name?) I'll get back to this when I've listened to the other two stories in hopes they have more explanation.


 * Regardless of that, the Fourth Doctor, Sarah Jane Smith and Harry Sullivan all face different fates after the timeline split occurs. I don't know if that really means they should get their own pages; it might be better for alternate timelines on their main pages. Again, I'll come back when I've listened to the other stories. Chubby Potato ☎  08:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The Tenth Doctor stated in 'Rise of the Cybermen' that every choice we make creates a parallel universe. So, why would a major choice here only create an "alternate timeline" rather than its own parallel universe? Wasn't Pete's World speculated to have been formed, albeit in a non-valid source, when the timeline diverged following Queen Victoria's death? If this was ever confirmed would you really want all of the parallel counterparts to be placed on single pages? There is a reason we separate Yvonne Hartman and Yvonne Hartman (Pete's World), just like there is a reason that these pages should be separate. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  09:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I have to point out that "divergence" is also the word used to describe the moment when two universes split off into different paths. It's like a fork in the road. Prior to the fork, there is only one road. But at the fork, the road splits into two roads, going different directions. The same is true with the universe, splitting into many universes, creating what we know as the multiverse. An alternate timeline would be someone going to the road during its construction and changing the plans for its construction, so it goes in a different direction than before. For an alternate timeline to exist, there has to be a catalyst that causes history to go down a different path than before. They don't occur naturally. So when they do occur, the original timeline ceases to exist. Alternate universes, however, do occur naturally, whenever someone makes a choice. The moment they make that choice, a universe featuring the other choice immediately pops into existence in its own separate dimension, existing alongside the other universe.


 * The big thing that makes this whole question of alternate timeline vs. alternate universe so complicated, is that the choice at the center of this, the Fourth Doctor's decision with the wires, is linked very heavily to the Time War, the most complicated event in Doctor Who history, with paradoxes piled on top of paradoxes. Prior to the divergence, the Time War would be the one we know, with it occurring during the Eighth Doctor's lifetime. The Time Lords, who sent the Fourth Doctor to Skaro, were from a reality where the Time War occurred then.


 * So, is this an alternate timeline, or an alternate universe? My problem with alternate timeline is the very fact that there was no outside interference that caused the Fourth Doctor to choose differently. If it is the same universe as the one we know, then it's impossible for the Fourth Doctor to choose differently, because we know he chose not to destroy the Daleks. He can't just magically choose otherwise, unless there's an outside influence. We currently have no evidence of any such influence. But, there's still the existence of the Sixth Doctor and Peri to consider. This whole mess is so complicated, it's like we're dealing with an alternate timeline of an alternate universe. DarkXaven ☎  11:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

To address your points @DrWHOCorrieFan, I need to say two things:
 * Firstly, we are not Marvel. How Marvel handles their What If series is antithetical to how Big Finish handles their Unbound series, even if the former was the inspiration for the latter, and that there exist basic commonalities between the two. So it doesn't really matter that What If stories are set in their own "Earth-XYZ" universe, Doctor Who always does its own thing.
 * Secondly, you forget that Doctor Who and consistency are not "friends". They don't go hand in hand. Doctor Who is not consistent. More often than not, a lot of lore, especially about alternate universes/timelines (as @NoNotTheMemes can testify!) is extraordinarily contradictory between sources. There is no one "true" explanation of how timelines work, and it varies story from story.

And to address your points, @DarkXaven...
 * What I said in response to @DrWHOCorrieFan applies here too: Doctor Who does not have consistent rules on how universes work. While normally, there may need to be a catalyst for a split, a divergence, this isn't necessary. We need to examine the evidence in the story, and so far it seems pretty clear to me that this is working as an forking timeline/universe from the original one, even if it has been set up unconventionally.
 * Moreover, there could still be a story yet that establishes that was indeed a catalyst for the split. It just hasn't been explained yet.
 * Finally, it is worth mentioning that in the real world, universes and timelines are treated as the same theoretical concept. It's only in fiction where there is a difference, and it may be entirely possible that Dust Devil is using the real world understanding on how universes may work.

While there may a lot up in the air, I think that given the evidence we have so far, even if that same evidence doesn't align with previous DWU sources, treats the events of Dust Devil as a divergent timeline. This is especially clear, given that @Chubby Potato has listened to the story and confirmed the "divergent timeline" as such. 📯 📂 12:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * My question to you is, why would you want this information covered on a single page? What are the benefits? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  12:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * To have a consistent and functional Wiki that operates on facts and information given from stories, not fan hypotheses? 📯 📂 12:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * This boxset's concept is in no way different to the other Unbound releases, but simply because the Doctor retains his face you think that they should be treated different to the characters who are played by new actors? Interesting direction. Literally the whole Unbound Universe was created by the divergent of sending the Doctor to Hong Kong rather than England in the 1980s. Explain to me how that is any different to The Warrior's universe. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎  13:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * There were differences between the Unbound Universe and the main one before the Doctor's trial. I support the Fourth Doctor material in this story being covered on Fourth Doctor in a dedicated section about Genesis of the Daleks. – n8 (☎) 13:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * So the deal with this set is a little strange. It begins in “our” universe, up to the point the Doctor decides to wipe out the Dalek incubators. This is signposted by the fact that Sarah begins to feel history breaking before she and Harry are killed by the Daleks. It’s made clear that the Doctor’s decision to wipe out the Daleks created the divergence and damaged time, leading to many versions of the Doctor running about. So we spend the majority of Dust Devils following the Sixth Doctor and Peri from the main continuity (or at least versions of them that are virtually identical) who begin to experience time shifting around them into the Warrior’s universe. Ultimately the Sixth Doctor (who was meant to the proper Doctor but the divergence to the timeline made him more of an aberrant timeline) is killed in order to allow The Warrior to become the primary timeline. So it’s sort of like the history of N-Space is rewritten rather than branching off, but we get no indication that it’s actually going to be put back beyond some promotional stuff comparing The Warrior to the Nightmare Child and the Skaro Degradations. I think we need to wait for the next set and then decide whether or not things should be split. As of now, The Warrior exits in a rewritten version of N-Space like Klein’s World. The timeline was in flux to begin with and allowed for other Doctors like the regular Sixth Doctor to exist until it was solidified as the Warrior’s world. SarahJaneFan ☎  13:35, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * @DrWHOCorrieFan - obviously this boxset is breaking the Unbound mould considering the evidence given by @Chubby Potato and @SarahJaneFan. I am not stating that these are the same timelines merely because "the Doctor retains his face"; I never said anything of the sort - I have been trying to ascertain the facts given from the stories in question. And as for AUDIO: Sympathy for the Devil, I'm not entirely sure why they are treated separately, but there has probably been a lot of previous Forum discussions on it.
 * Considering @SarahJaneFan's explanation, it seems to me to be a divergent universe, albeit entirely non-linearly, where the Fourth Doctor's decision caused time itself to change, not just one specific, neat divergance point. But considering that Genesis widely regarded to be the beginning of the Time War, it makes sense that massive repercussions occured.
 * Finally, @SarahJaneFan, while it does make sense to wait for further installments to give further details, what do you suggest we do at present? Treat the "original" universe as N-Space or treat them as separate entities? 📯 📂 17:23, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * @User:Epsilon the Eternal In regards to Sympathy for the Devil, that one is treated as an alternate universe, because it was clearly established that it was an alternate universe. I know Bernice Summerfield crossed over into that universe and both the Unbound Doctor and Unbound Master have crossed over into the main universe. The Sixth Doctor and Evelyn Smythe also traveled there once and it was done by traveling sideways in time, which is what happens when going from one universe to another, according to the Seventh Doctor.


 * As for what to do presently, since we're already part way into the info being posted separately, it would probably be easier to just keep it separate for now, and integrate if it turns out to clearly be alternate timeline. I mean, at this point, we can't even put this into one of the tables on the alternate timeline page, since no one has negated it back into the original timeline yet. But, we should leave a note that it's still up in the air on what we're dealing with here, and we're waiting on future anthologies to hopefully clear things up. We do know for sure that there's one anthology yet to come, and with a name like Destiny, it may very well be where things are cleared up. DarkXaven ☎  23:01, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Edit: I negate most of my second paragraph, now that I just reread what has previously been said here. But, I still stand by keeping them separate for now, as things are currently set up with that in mind, and I still stand by leaving a note stating that things are still up in the air. 23:20, 15 April 2022 (UTC)


 * After sleeping on things, I've had an epiphany. We're dealing with a time travel phenomena unlike any we have seen over the years. We're dealing with a paradox that breaks a closed time loop. First, let's cover what the loop is. Event 1: The Fourth Doctor is sent to Skaro to avert the Daleks. He chooses not to do so. Event 2: In response, the Daleks get stronger, to the point where they can challenge the Time Lords, leading to the Time War. To prevent this, the Time Lords send the Fourth Doctor to Skaro to avert the Daleks. It's a chicken and the egg scenario. Which came first? Both events are dependent on the other. However, because the Fourth Doctor had a choice whether to destroy the Daleks or not, the universe would diverge or branch in two at that moment, because that's how parallel universes are formed.


 * N-Space, our universe, is the branch where the Fourth Doctor chose not to destroy the Daleks. The closed time loop remains intact and the Time War plays out like how we know it to play out. This story is set on the other branch, where the Fourth Doctor chose to destroy the Daleks. However, the Fourth Doctor was only on Skaro because of the other half of the closed time loop, causing a paradox. Prior to that choice, the timeline in this universe was identical to N-Space, including any encounters the first four Doctors had with any future Doctors, any trips they took to the future, etc. This would explain how a version of the Sixth Doctor and Peri could be here. They're remnants of how the timeline was in this universe before the loop was broken, which was identical to N-Space in every way. It, however, is not N-Space, at least, not our N-Space. Our universe is intact and still exists as we know it. I think I somewhat hit the nail on the head when I said alternate timeline of an alternate universe.


 * Basically, after having this revelation, I stand by my previous judgement. It should be kept separate. While this universe did, at one point, have a timeline identical to N-Space, it is not our N-Space. It is a N-Space. Yes, I'm partially quoting the Tenth Doctor here, but it applies in this case. DarkXaven ☎  10:37, April 16 2022 (UTC)


 * As far as this story is concerned, an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are synonymous --in the sense that "alternate universes are a result of a divergence in the course of history". This approach is what is used in the RTD Era and what is used in a majority of Doctor Who fiction. The easiest point of comparison here is Donna's World, an alternative timeline generated by the influence of the Trickster Brigade. Donna's World and Pete's World are both considered the same thing ("great big parallel world[s]"). The Doctor doesn't insist upon "Well, this was an altered timeline or an aborted timeline NOT a parallel universe." because as far as that story is concerned they are the same thing. This is what the STANDARD approach is in fiction. Parallel universes being entirely separate from their genesis is the exception, not the rule. The wiki has this general approach of imposing a difference when it is clearly not the intent.
 * Saying that the Sixth Doctor and Peri are not from N-Space but instead from "an alternate timeline of this alternate universe" feels like a desperate attempt to not take the story at its word. This story is communicating that "the Warrior's World" is an alternate universe in the same way that "Donna's World" is an alternate universe. The Sixth Doctor and Peri that we see are meant to be the ones we are familiar with. If the Donna from Donna's World met the Donna from the Doctor's World, we wouldn't delineate the latter from the "prime" Donna. Or at the very least, we shouldn't. This does not need to be this complicated.NoNotTheMemes ☎  19:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Citing the wiki's approach to the Unbound Universe isn't compelling, at least to me, because it's current approach suffers from the same problem. It's not taking the story at its word. The "Unbound Universe" is an alternate timeline in which the Second Doctor was exiled to the 90s rather than the 70s. That's how it's advertised and that's how it is structured in-universe. As far as that story is concerned, it is something that DIVERGED from the original timeline. The premise that the Third Doctor in *Sympathy for the Devil* didn't regenerate from the Second Doctor that we know from the TV show is the Wiki imposing a narrative upon the story that it very evidently was not trying to say. It's imposing a different approach to "alternate timelines v. alternate universes" than what is used in-story.


 * Imposing the thesis that "alternate timelines are different from alternate universes" as the rule on stories involving Unbounds is a bad doctrine that ignores what the story is trying to do.


 * Some may argue that "Well, because of this change in the Unbound that means X previous adventure didn't happen the way it used to." To that I say, how is that any different from the rest of the show? The 21st Century that Zoe came from is very obviously not the 21st Century that we see in NuWho, but that isn't used to argue that the Second Doctor in the Eleventh Doctor's past isn't the same incarnation as the one we saw in the War Games. As far as these stories are concerned, alternate timelines ARE alternate universes/parallel universes. This is the far more mainstream approach to a "multiverse" both in Doctor Who fiction and in broader science fiction. Imposing the other definition is editorializing. NoNotTheMemes ☎  19:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Coverage, at least in my eyes, is relatively straight forward. Cover the events of the story on Fourth Doctor as "An alternate universe was created when the Fourth Doctor concluded that he did have the right. . ." under the "Alternate Timeline" header. On the Sixth Doctor, and Peri Brown, cover the story under "Alternate Timelines" with the prefix of "In one account, the Doctor and Peri were hunted down by an incarnation from an alternate timeline. . ." Of course, cover the events from the Warrior's perspective and Miss Brown's perspective on The Warrior and Miss Brown respectively, but that's more to do with subsequent stories rather than Dust Devil. This, I feel, retains the spirit of the story and preserves authorial intent --rather than imposing the Wiki's editorializing of the "alternate universe v. altered timeline" debacle. NoNotTheMemes  ☎  21:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC)