Howling:Time travel theory

I've been having a "discussion" with an IP about time travel. They don't understand my theory. Originally the post was about River and how River didn't know Rory in Series 5, even though they'll both appear in series 6 and most probably meet, which is set before River meets the Doctor at the end of the Big Bang. My theory was that, unless Rory was absent from series 6 when River appears, River had the series 6 adventures before she returned to the wedding, which would explain why can know of Rory in series 6. I want to know who understands the theory as one IP claims that it is impossible.

The events follow as such:
 * 1) The Doctor resets the universe making himself non existent in the future of that time-line.
 * 2) Rory and Amy are returned to their wedding day, River to wherever she would be in the future.
 * 3) Amy remembers the Doctor and brings him and the TARDIS back. This creates a new future (a split time-line) where the Doctor exists.
 * 4) The Doctor, Amy and Rory then travel to the future where the Doctor exists and pick up River.
 * 5) The four live through the events of series six, which is how River wouldn't know Rory in the Pandorica Opens, but would have met him by the events of series 6.
 * 6) From the future, they travel back to the wedding and drop River off with her diary.
 * 7) The diary's writing would disappear as at that point in the time-line, Amy had not remembered the Doctor, so the time-line had a future in which the Doctor did not exist. This is the same as in City of the Daleks where Amy was beginning to disappear since she came from a future that did not exist at that point in the time line.
 * 8) Amy remembers which brings us back to point three, and the paradoxical cycle begins again.

Have a look here for and explanation of how the split time-line basically works.


 * Here's a break down of the individual time-lines:
 * Amy and Rory's timeline:
 * Return to wedding
 * Amy remembers
 * Pick up River and they live through series 6
 * Drop River off at the wedding and leave


 * River's timeline:
 * River is returned to the far future
 * Just as happens to Jennifer in Back to the Future, the time-line changes around River when Amy remembers
 * The Doctor, Amy and Rory pick up River and live through series 6
 * River is dropped off at the wedding. Her book looses it's writing, as the future it came from does not exist because the course the timeline is on will not lead to that future
 * River gives Amy the diary to remember, causing the future to change around her past self, bringing us back to point 2.
 * River gets her diary back from the newly brought back Doctor and warns him of the series 6 events.


 * The Doctor's timeline:
 * The Doctor causes himself not to exist
 * Amy remembers him and brings him back
 * River warns him of the series 6 events
 * He, Amy and Rory pick up River from the future and they live through series 6.
 * Knowing River caused his re-existence as he knew she had given Amy her diary, he drops her off so she can give Amy the diary and cause him to re-exist, bringing us back to point number 2.

Now, I'd like the opinions of others about this theory. --The Thirteenth Doctor 21:36, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ok.. First of all i would like to point out that i'm only familiar with the revived series of Doctor Who, so i'm not a real expert. But regarding the time travel laws, i see (from what i've watched so far) that these laws are somehow left vague and partly unexplained, which leaves it to the writers to add or alter some aspects of those laws, on condition that they give us an explanation. The main point you're arguing about is whether it is possible for the future doctor to travel back to a timeline in which he never existed. I think Moffat can choose either way and he can find a good explanation for both. We can speculate but anything is possible...

Personally i disagree with the Thirteenth for 2 reasons:

1. After Amy brings back the doctor, everything in the universe is put into place. Crossing your own timeline and changing things is now forbidden like before. The doctor can't change his own past without consequences. He did all the paradoxes in "The Big Bang" because the universe was torn apart and rules didnt apply anymore. But in series 6 everything is normal again.

2. At the wedding, the doctor didnt exist in the past, present or future. When Amy brought him back, the timeline in which the doctor didnt exist doesnt exist anymore.. so the doctor can't travel back in time to something that isnt there anymore. If he now travels back to the wedding, the doctor exists and River's book is full not empty because all the adventures they had are still there.

3. This point has nothing to do with time travel laws, and it's just a speculation from my side. But i think in Series 6, River won't be a companion to the doctor. She will be on the other side. Remember what she said to the doctor? "U'll soon find out who i am and that's when everything changes". What i understood from that sentence that earlier in her timeline (series 6) we will see another side of River, before she got that close to the doctor. She might be working against the doctor, so it is unlikely that he'll pick her up and drop her at the wedding.63.216.120.87 22:31, August 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * About the paradoxes, they are allowed to occur, just not to the level of "Father's Day". In that instance, Rose's interference gave no reason for her past self to go back in time again and save her father as he was already saved. This instance is more like River's screwdriver; the Doctor only gave her his screwdriver, because his past self knew he gave her his screwdriver as she had it when he was in the library. I can see where you're coming from with point 2. Though, that really does depend on the whole "cracks" debate; does being erased from existence cause events to change? Personally, I don't think so or the whole cause of the Crash of the Byzantium goes out of the window. If the physicality changed then the crash would have been negated. This must mean that the events which happened still existed in the same time-line. As for River being on the other side, I can see that happening, yes, but by the end of it she does seem to really care for him, so my guess is even if she starts out bad in series 6, he'll change her. But thanks for giving your input. The Thirteenth Doctor 22:53, August 1, 2010 (UTC)