Howling:The cybermen debate

just transphering the latter part of this conversation from the panopticon to here, as this is more the place for this sort of debate http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:The_Unspecified_Cyberman_Debate&t=20111221075156. Imamadmad talk to me 11:53, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

I genuinely think the origin of any Cyberman that isn't explicitly shown should be left intentionally vague. The Cybus Cybermen was meant to be a reboot of the Cybermen just like the new Silurian. In the end, I think they are just considered Cybermen by some of the writiers. The Cybermen with ambiguous origin does not have to be Mondasian or Cybus; there could be other Cybermen. Of course, the information from the Brilliant Book should be noted, but the other ones should probably be just considered generic Cybermen in general.

The fact that Mondasian Cybermen looking similar to Cybus Cybermen already suggests that certain adoption of each other's technology has occured. The clean division between the two races may not even exist anymore.

The Silurian would be much more worthy of debate, considering that the new series Silurian have removable mask and a humanoid face, which may suggest all other Silurians and Sea Devils actually might have been wearin masks the whole time... --222.166.181.197 15:31, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Silurians are a completely different case. The original Silurians would have looked very stupid in the modern show. Some races, like the Sontarans, can return to the modern show and still look good with few major changes to their appearance, but the Silurians just looked like people in cheap costumes back in the 70s. The Cybermen also looked like people in cheap costumes back in the classic show, but their appearance was constantly changing even in the classic show. The Silurians, however, are a fully biological species, and some kind of explanation was needed to change their appearance. The fact that Mondasian Cybermen look similar to Cybusmen really proves nothing at all except that they didn't have the budget to redesign them. There is also no reason to believe that there are more than the two forms of Cybermen. Just the fact that Lumic randomly came up with a similar design and name to a species that existed in another universe is unlikely enough, but anymore variants of the Cybermen existing is next to impossible. Any Cyberman we see must be either from Mondas or from the Earth of Pete's World. If you genuinely think that the origin of any Cybermen that isn't explicitly shown should bhe left intentionally vague, then you must think that Cybermen in any Classic episode that doesn't mention Mondas should also be left vague. As I mentioned in the Panoppticon conversation, a group of Cybusmen could have crossed into our universe, travelled back in time, gone through a redesign, and then been scooped up and taken to the death zone, or captured by Vorg and stuffed in his miniscope, or gone after Nemesis. We shouldn't automatically assume that the Cybermen we see in new episodes is from Pete's World, anymore than we should assume that any other character we see is from Pete's World. The walls of the universe have been closed. Nothing can get across through the void. Therefore, the Cybusmen couldn't possibly have been behind Closing Time. If you want an in-universe reason as to why they weren't redesigned, then apart from Rose, every character who appeared in Pete's World was identical to their "real"-world counterpart. Why should something like the Cybermen be any different?Icecreamdif talk to me 22:12, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and the idea of Classic Silurians wearing masks the whole time could actually make sense. It would explain why their third eye could be used as a weapon, for example. Maybe it would have been cool if the Silurians initially looked like their classic counterparts in The Hungry Earth, and then revealed that they were just wearing masks. Anyway, that is another debate entirely.Icecreamdif talk to me 22:14, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

uh...what you said make as much sense as saying having a Pete in Pete's world is unlikely. They are parallel universes to our; they are meant to have similarities. Moreover, the development of Cybermen not of Mondasian origin in our Universe is perfectly probable. A Cyberman is a Cyberman, and the origin, unless specified, is ambiguous. You don't go and look at Silurian and say they come from specific parts of Earth unless they specifically told you now, do you? --222.166.181.57 03:40, December 22, 2011 (UTC)

Well, realistically, it seems incredibly unlikely that their would be a Pete in Pete's world. The odds that the same people would meet and have children in such a radically different world are incredibly low. In any parallel universe story, it's just one of those things where your willing suspension of disbelief has to kick in. However, with the Cybermen, it's even more unlikely. Not only do we have a very similar "species," but they have a completely different origin. In many ways it is completely ridiculous, but Rise of the Cybermen and Age of Steel are good stories, so the unlikliness of the whole thing is easy to ignore. However, unless you're suggesting Cybermen from yet another universe made their way through the sealed walls of the universe, then we must assume that there are only two brands of Cybermen in The Doctor's universe.Icecreamdif talk to me 05:20, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

the universes are parrallel, meaning they are very similar meaning that having a person in both universes is still very likely, otherwise the world would look much more different from ours then it does as if any of the many importaint people who influenced the way the world looks like today (eg: benjamin franklin, alexander graeham bell) were never born, the world would look very different to what it is, which is basically our world with blimps in the air. next, i think what 222 was saying was that the mondasian cybermen might not be the only ones which originated in this universe. there are many other humanoid species which might have turned into cybermen within our own universe. although it hasn't been specified in the show, there is always that possibility. i also quite like the idea of the two known kinds of cybermen forming an aliance with the cybus' better body and the mondasian's easier way of converting. Imamadmad talk to me 12:08, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but we saw that Rose already didn't exist in the parallel universe. Think about all the many other people who must not exist in that universe. Anyway, back to the point, what are the odds tha there would be other Cybermen in our universe. You might as well say that another species who were mutated in a nuclear war built travel cases for thesmelves and removed all emotions, and now we have another, identical, group of Daleks. Plenty of other humanoid species have turned into Cybermen, but they are still all the Mondasian brand of Cybermen. The Cybeusmen only want to upgrade humans, but the Mondasian Cybermen are much less picky. Whether a Cybermen in the "real" universe was originally from Earth, Sto, Dulcis, or any of the other planets of humanoid, they are still Mondasian Cybermen. Unless you are suggesting that the Cybermen were created independantly on multiple different worlds in our universe, which, as I said, seems incredibly unlikely.Icecreamdif talk to me 18:21, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

even if the chance is 1,000,000,000/1, that still means that there would be a possibility for much more than 2 different kinds of cybermen in existence. and who knows, maybe there is another dalek-like race in the whoniverse that we haven't seen yet? Imamadmad talk to me 01:54, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Icecreamdif, since you clearly have no idea what a parallel universe is, please either read the Pete's World article in this wiki or go look up what a parallel universe is before you come back to this discussion. It's quite pointless to discuss something when you don't even understand what the subject is.--222.166.181.78talk to me 02:00, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I know what a parallel universe is. That still doesn't make it any more likely that the same people can possible be born and have relatively similar lives in such a radically different environment, but at this point that's not even what you're suggesting. You're saying that there may be more Cybermen in the Doctor's universe. That seems ridiculously unlikely. Maybe there are other universes with Cybermen in them, but in this one, it would just be silly to assume that there is more than one brand of Cybermen. Maybe there is also another Gallifrey in the other constellation of Kasteborus in the Doctor's universe, with another race of Time Lords on them. By that logic, we can't be sure of anything that we've seen. Is Strax from the same species of Sontaran that we've gotten used to, or has an identical species evolved on another planet called Sontar and started reproducing by cloning after becoming obsessed with war? I think we have to assume that there is only one brand of Cybermen per universe.Icecreamdif talk to me 17:00, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Icecreamdif, can you just read the articles first. The fact that you keep saying it is unlikely to have Pete in Pete's World contradicts the definition. There's no discussion if you don't understand what you are discussing.

Your examples also suggest you don't really understand other people are saying. Non-Mondasian Cybermen does not in any way equates to having another Sontar and another race of Sontaran. Sontar is a planet and Sontaran is a race specifically from the planet. Cybermen on the other hand is used as a generic name. It would be more similar to Sensorites vs Oods, Minotaurs vs Nimons, Foamasi vs Slitheens, Humans vs Non-Earth Near-Humans...the examples are plenty. Daleks are a also clone species, so I have no idea what is your point. --222.166.181.144talk to me 18:40, December 25, 2011 (UTC)