Talk:The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius)

Proposed deletion
There is no reference, direct or indirect, to The Brain of Morbius in the audio Cold Fusion. In fact, the minor reference from the original novel was removed for the audio adaptation. There is certainly nothing in the way of confirmation that the faces in the mind-bending sequence are pre-Loom incarnations of the Doctor. 04:11, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the point being made here is that Patience's husband is specified as the Doctor, and one of the incarnations of her husband is given a description matching that of one of the Morbius Doctors. --Pluto2 (talk) 04:13, January 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * Not really. The audio is no more specific than the book. The description of a dark colored beard with lighter hair is both 1) present in the original novel and 2) not enough evidence for this claim. 04:18, January 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know anything about Cold Fusion, but I'm fairly certain that there's a throw-away line in Original Sin that said that the Morbius Doctors were past incarnations... CoT     ?  04:23, January 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * Here's the sole reference to Morbius in Original Sin:
 * Hanging onto Morbius's mind-bending equipment while his past lives were dragged from him, one by one...
 * Also not definitive. That's an accurate description of what happens whether the other faces are his or not. 04:34, January 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * Surely if they weren't his, it'd have said so? --Pluto2 (talk) 04:53, January 12, 2017 (UTC)

Really? It might be a technically accurate interpretation, but it seems a bit biased to say that the Doctor could just be referring to a small portion of the mind battle. To give context for the quote, the Doctor is recounting various ways his mind may have been damaged in the past. Why would the Seventh Doctor think that just the first bit was damaging when Tom Baker is clearly in pain all the way through? Also, "one by one" isn't a very good choice of words for a number as small as 3. CoT    ?  05:01, January 12, 2017 (UTC)

The audio adaption of Cold Fusion says that Patience is the Doctor's wife in this universe. Currently the redirect for Fifth Doctor (The Brain of Morbius) is Patience's wife. --Borisashton ☎  10:28, January 12, 2017 (UTC)

The bit in the novelisation of the Brain of Morbius with these faces in goes like this: 'To the death, Doctor. I, Morbius, do not play games.' 'Nor I,' said the Doctor grimly. 'Are you ready? On guard!' The Doctor and Morbius braced themselves, gripping the gleaming scaffolding. Sarah saw a swirl of images on the central screen. A familiar face appeared—the face they had seen depicted on Solon's clay head. Morbius gave a cry of rage—clearly the appearance of 'his' face was a sign that he was losing. Morbius rallied, and the face of the Doctor appeared on the screen. Sarah saw that the real Doctor's face was twisted with effort. Drops of perspiration covered his forehead. Another face appeared on the screen, the debonair white-haired features of the Doctor, as Sarah had first known him. 'You are going, Doctor, going!' roared Morbius triumphantly. 'How far, Doctor? How long have you lived?' Yet another Doctor appeared on the screen—a dark-haired little man with a whimsical expression. Then another face... a proudlooking old man. Exultantly Morbius shouted, 'Your puny mind is powerless against the brain of Morbius. Back, Doctor, back to your beginnings. To your birth—and to your death!' Sarah had a confused impression of even more faces on the screen. The Doctor was groaning, clutching the scaffolding for support...

This only refers to the Morbius Doctors as 'faces'. But the way Morbius speaks (I think) proves that these are the Doctor's faces. Aside from the lines he says in the TV story he also says 'Back to your beginnings. To your birth - and to your death'. This to me proves that the faces described are the Doctor's. Why would he talk like that to the Doctor if they were his faces? Any thoughts? --Borisashton ☎  20:29, January 12, 2017 (UTC)

If this article stays is the name correct as it seems wrong to have multiple pages called the first doctor second doctor etc 95.147.32.223talk to me 22:50, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * Either we stick with the established system (the current numbering), or go with "Original X Doctor", like "Original First Doctor". --Pluto2 (talk) 22:54, January 12, 2017 (UTC)

Also a paragraph from Cold Fusion also telling the events of the mindbending scene: 'A lot of what happened before my second regeneration is hazy. Great chunks of my life are missing. It was all so very long ago. Your second regeneration? ‘How far, Doctor? How long have you lived?’ An oversized claw snapped open and shut, a human hand clasped a rail. A brain within a tank, red eyestalks glaring at him. A patchwork monster with a gurgling voice. ‘your puny mind is powerless against the strength of Morbius, Back! Back to your beginning!’ You can’t... not that far... I won’t let you.... Not even I... Here and no further.'

This also shows that the Doctor was aware of regeneration before his first and was actively stopping Morbius from going there. --Borisashton ☎  13:18, January 14, 2017 (UTC)

I just checked AHistory. It refers to Patience's husband as "The Doctor", so it looks like Parkin's intent was that Patience's husband is the Doctor. --Pluto2 (talk) 00:50, January 16, 2017 (UTC)
 * Are there any further arguments on this matter? --Borisashton ☎  18:40, May 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * I think it's all somewhat interesting, but I still am agaainst using the Morbious Doctors as we have. All of the information discussed can be presented on pages like Patience's husband. OS25 (Talk) 20:15, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

Can we remove the delete tag? --Pluto2 (talk) 07:30, September 6, 2017 (UTC)
 * Not without an admin decision. Shambala108 ☎  14:18, September 6, 2017 (UTC)
 * If we really need an admin to close discussions like these, I think we should be doing a ton more user rights nominations, since our current team of active admins (as undeniably wonderful and industrious as they are!) are clearly just understaffed to settle discussions like this one, which has been all but totally inactive since January. It blows my mind that we've only gotten two new admins over the last four years! – N8 ☎ 14:50, September 6, 2017 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree that it'd be ignoring a preponderance of material to say that the faces in The Brain of Morbius weren't incarnations of the Other / previous incarnations of the Doctor, and that Patience's husband wasn't himself an incarnation, but I'd like to at least see a rename for this page, since this face has never been called the First Doctor, and Cold Fusion actually suggests there were further incarnations before him. – N8 ☎ 14:50, September 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * Looking through the recent discussion, and the history of the various Brain of Morbius Doctors pages they're all broadly the same information and were created at the same time.
 * With no real clear statement in-universe of where on the regeneration path these incarnations are from I would suggest merging all of these articles into a single The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius) page. That way we can collect all the information that's been spread out through these six pages.
 * Also as the Patience's husband delete tag redirects here, that should remain, as there's in-universe information supporting his existence. No need to merge that page in with these. --Tangerineduel / talk 07:22, September 27, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd agree with that plan. I think The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius) is definitely the best solution, and not just because they're most commonly referred to as the "Morbius Doctors". Note that the deletion tag on Patience's husband should probably change into a merge tag, since it seems like they're meant to be the same? – N8 ☎ 13:34, September 27, 2017 (UTC)


 * I disagree on Patience's husband being included in the merger of all of these pages.
 * I think we can probably link to The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius) from Patience's husband but the information concerning her husband and the info on the page is too vague to say definitively one way or another. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:57, September 28, 2017 (UTC)


 * So Patience's husband is a Doctor from before the First Doctor, and The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius) is a Doctor from before the First Doctor, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the same Doctor. Gotcha; that makes sense. I plan on rereading Cold Fusion for all the details on Patience's husband and his status as an incarnation of the Doctor, but until then I look forward to the renaming of this page and the deletion of the other Morbius Doctor pages! – N8 ☎ 20:25, October 12, 2017 (UTC)

Missing face
Why isn't the face that appeared before the Fourth Doctor in the mind-bending contest on this page? JMC Red Dwarf ☎  02:40, February 28, 2018 (UTC)
 * Because no one has uploaded one or added it to the page? Shambala108 ☎  02:48, February 28, 2018 (UTC)
 * You mean the face of Morbius before he became a monster? --Borisashton ☎  18:41, February 28, 2018 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you mean by “before he became a monster”? JMC Red Dwarf ☎  06:16, March 1, 2018 (UTC)