Talk:Man with the rosette

Master?
Am I reading the BTS note correctly? We only know this guy is the Master because of something Lance Parkin reported about what Larry Miles said? Wouldn't it then follow that he is not the Master based upon in-universe sources? And doesn't that then mean we are wrong to state, in the lead no less, that the Man with the Rosette is the Master? 15:15: Sun 08 Jan 2012
 * It's been a long time since I read The Adventuress of Henrietta Street, but as I recall there were strong hints that the Man with the Rosette was the Master in that (his only significant appearance). I'd have to re-read the book to see what those hints were. —Josiah Rowe talk to me 03:32, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Concerning the imminent merger of the Master pages, I'd like to know these hints and if they're really enough to say in-universe that he's the Master. -- Tybort (talk page) 14:28, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think this article should be preserved as it is, though linked from the incorporated Master article.
 * There isn't enough solid information to outright confirm it's the Master, there's just a lot of hints.
 * If you ignore the first line of the article what's in the Biography is what's said in the novel. There's nothing outright that he says or does that screams "this is the Master", it's very underplayed. --Tangerineduel / talk 16:48, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

The Slow Empire
I believe the man who appears to Anji in The Slow Empire is Sabbath, not the Man with the Rosette. For one, I've just reread the passage and he's described as neither "slim" nor "rather handsome"; rather, he's wearing a pristine dinner suit (like Sabbath), with slicked back black hair (like Sabbath) and a cane (like Sabbath). In contrast, the Man with the Rosette's distinguishing characteristic - the eponymous rosette - is completely absent in The Slow Empire. Furthermore, the man in The Slow Empire is accompanied by a grotesque familiar, just like the babewyns staffing Sabbath's ship.

There are additional out-of-universe reasons to think he's intended to be Sabbath: namely, Sabbath was singled out by editor Justin Richards as a major recurring antagonist of the latter EDAs, and his character notes were distributed among other writers; so it makes sense that he would appear in The Slow Empire, whereas the Man with the Rosette was a one-off that wasn't visibly choreographed with other writers. (And, since The Slow Empire predated his official introduction in The Adventuress of Henrietta Street, it would make sense if his appearance didn't perfectly match ... although as it happens, it does.) – n8 (☎) 21:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * So to be clear, I could have reverted the edits without any comment and been completely fine per T:NO WARS, but since I left an explanatory comment (which hasn't even been contested yet, so no "discussion" exists) I was out-of-line? That's blatantly not how those rules are meant to be applied; editors shouldn't be penalized for explaining their changes. – n8 (☎) 13:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello! I've reverted your edit, not because I necessarily disagree, but because there has not in fact been any discussion of the above yet, so T:BOUND suggests the Slow Empire information should stay. Once you made this a matter for the talk page, something requiring argument rather than a simple explanation, then it must be discussed before action is taken — and indeed I think this is a matter for the talk page. There is no talk of "penalising" you — I just think this discussion is worth having. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  13:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Cutting you off here to note that I disagree and it is you who has violated T:BOUND; but in any case, let me take the opportunity to advise that any readers who care about the wiki's accuracy to make their edits before posting any explanations on the talk page. – n8 (☎) 14:04, 28 June 2021 (UTC)


 * As a matter of fact, I think the situation is much more ambiguous than you make it out to be in the above comment, and that there is room for such discussion. Indeed, the ambiguity was perhaps intentional. To wit, here is what gives me pause.


 * First, Sabbath doesn't have oiled, slicked-back hair, traditionally — he has very short-cropped hair, which is a different thing. On the occasion that Sabbath carried a cane in his later appearances, it had a golden handle, not a silver one. Additionally, the man in Slow Empire is described as "sardonic-looking", certainly a trait one associates with that guy whom the Man with the Rosette is meant to be.


 * Also: if it's Sabbath, what's with this line?

"‘Oh, don’t be ridiculous,’ says the man. ‘You know perfectly well who I am. In a certain sense, anyway."

- The Slow Empire


 * That suggests that Anji should be capable of guessing something important about the man's identity. I struggle to think what it might be for Sabbath, who, as you say, hadn't been introduced yet. If it's the Man with the Rosette, however, then what he expects her to guess might be "another surviving Elemental".


 * Consider also: in The Slow Empire:

"He essays a formal little bow and shoots out a well-manicured hand."

- The Slow Empire


 * In The Adventuress of Henrietta Street:

"Whenever people would ask each other about him, in muted whispers, the dark-haired gentleman would simply bow his head to them."

- The Adventuress of Henrietta Street


 * And when it comes to having a menagerie of monster-henchpeople, well, again, that guy with the beard is no stranger to such things, up to and including ape-faced servants — not to mention that the Man with the Rosette does have contact with the Kingdom of Beasts in Adventuress. And the Man with the Rosette's relevance to the "Needle" mythos is proof enough that other people than Miles tried to work him into their own works.


 * It could be Sabbath all the same, but I think it isn't at all clear-cut. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  13:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I truly didn't expect you to take it like this, @n8 (and if I might make an embarrassing admission, I actually meant to click the 'Undo' button, and thereby be able to put an edit rationale in my reversion; but I absent-mindedly ended up hitting the 'Rollback' one which, while having a similar function, doesn't give the opportunity of including a summmary). The thing is, your talk page post above seems structured like the opening of a discussion, not like an explanation for a change you're going ahead with making — you didn't mention an edit at all, and led with "I believe…" . If you had written "I've just removed [X], because…", then it would have been within policy for you to have removed the information.


 * But let me clear that I'm not accusing you of having broken the rules in any halfway serious fashion. I just think the optimal course of action here is to have the discussion before we remove the information. But I did not mean to chastise you for your initial removal of it, or imply it had been done it bad faith. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  14:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * That's completely fair; I guess I might be in a slightly crabby mood this morning and accidentally took it out on you. Thank you for the clarification and being so understanding, and I'm sincerely sorry for any unpleasantness I might have caused. Lesson learned: next time I won't wiki before my morning coffee! – n8 (☎) 14:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * People other than Miles worked the Man with the Rosette into their own works, yes - after the release of Adventuress, when anyone could pick up the book and figure out how to tie it in. But The Slow Empire was released four months before, while Adventuress was still being written. So given the known facts about the general lack of coordination between BBC Books writers, which is more likely:
 * Dave Stone worked in a vague and ambiguous cameo of a recurring series villain whose character notes had been distributed to all writers by the editor, setting up a mystery that would be answered in a few books' time, albeit writing him in a way that contradicted some later details of the as-yet-unseen character and fell into the very common and much-remarked-upon trend of EDAs authors writing Sabbath as if he's just the Master; or
 * Dave Stone knew so much detail of a book that was still being written that he featured a minor side character in a fairly spot-lighted mystery role, despite the fact that there would never be any payoff because his identity would remain a mystery in Adventuress and later books (to the extent that even the Tardis Wiki still doesn't explicitly say that the Man is the Master)?
 * Maybe you've made an interesting argument for The Master (The Slow Empire), but I don't think it has anything to do with the Rosette incarnation specifically. In any case, I've Facebook DM'd Dave to see if he can help us out with some Word of God! – n8 (☎) 14:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Good idea.


 * I agree that Sabbath is more likely, but it doesn't seem totally out of the realm of possibility that one of the things about the post-War universe about which there would have been discussion among BBC Books writers would be "did any other Time Lords survive, and if so, which ones?"; and thus Stone could have known about the basic fact "there is a version of the Master roaming about, although let's keep it just ambiguous whether he really is the Master", without knowing the details of how Miles would build on that idea. Hence the lack of a rosette, actually. To me it's something like… 75% probability that it's Sabbath, but a fair 25% chance that it's the implied-surviving-Master. That line about Anji somehow knowing who he is "in a certain sense" still nags at me. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  14:55, 28 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I should also note that part of this is motivated by the general irreconcilability. I have made the mistake in ascribing the descriptor of "slim" to the appearance of the gentleman from PROSE: The Slow Empire - which I think I've pulled from another story when doing research surrounding the character. But if we look at the descriptives used for the character in Slow Empire:

"[He has] a polite voice, utterly courteous, solicitous without being obsequious... [He was] a dapper, sardonic-looking man dressed in a pristine dinner suit. His jet-black hair is slicked neatly back with oil. He is leaning, nonchalantly, on a silver-handled cane... He essays a formal little bow and shoots out a well-manicured hand."

- The Slow Empire


 * So we know that his voice is 'polite and courteous', he is well-dressed, has well-manicured hands (which can be taken to mean he cares about how he presents himself), he has dark hair that is slicked neatly back with oil, he's nonchalant, and that he has a silver-handled cane. Going from there, the first explicit appearance of both Sabbath Dei and the Man with the Rosette is in PROSE: The Adventuress of Henrietta Street. The man with the rosette is described as:

"Assembling a picture out of all the accounts, he’s described as  a  clean-shaved, dark-haired man in distinguished middle age, handsome in some respects even though to some of the British witnesses he came across as ‘swarthy and difficult to place’. He was slim and well turned out, and he made an impression on the island by always dressing in tight, straightforward clothing of prim black. . .  apart from the rosette of blue and white which he wore on is lapel. He would often be seen simply standing in the vicinity of the other guests,  hands folded behind his back,  observing intently without becoming involved in any of the visitors’ many disputes.  Whenever people would ask each other about him, in muted whispers, the dark-haired gentleman would simply bow his head to them.  His accent was English, although some said they detected a little Latin in his features."

- The Adventuress on Henrietta Street

"[He was] ‘a gentleman of distinguished nature’, clean-shaven and dark-haired, and at first she thought he might have been in the market for business. She does note, however, that on the lapel of his black clothing he wore a rosette in blue-and-white. It would have marked him out as a member of the Opposition, but nonetheless he was quite gracious and civil."

- The Adventuress on Henrietta Street

"He was dark-haired and clean-shaven, and on his smart black shirt he still wore a rosette of blue and white. His hands were folded nonchalantly behind his back, as if he too were contemplating the sad fall of the House."

- The Adventuress on Henrietta Street

"The man was as untroubled by the violence as Scarlette herself, evidently having seen much  of  it  before."

- The Adventuress on Henrietta Street


 * The 'man with the rosette' is also consistently referenced as mysterious, which would suggest that him not introducing himself is part of the idea of this character --whereas Sabbath goes by pseudonyms and only his ship is ever referred to as such. This is more a remark of characterization than of blunt facts, but something I feel is relevant.

"...The mysterious (and possibly mythical) man with the rosette had evidently departed... The island’s most mysterious visitor had thoughtfully left behind a gift, when he’d escorted Scarlette to the guesthouse..."

- The Adventuress on Henrietta Street


 * Now, as for Sabbath Dei's description in the story, he's distinctly characterized as not giving a darn about his appearance. Not only in terms of personal grooming but in terms of dress sense. His hair is closely shaved (not slicked back with oil), he wears loose fitting clothing (hardly describes somebody who is well-dressed), and he didn't regard his phsycail appearance as an issue (so why would he have well-manicured hands):

"Sabbath was overweight, though not grossly so: he'd chosen to become the spider in the centre of the web, and by 1782 simply didn't regard his physical appearance as an issue.... His bulky body was built of muscle as well as fat, though since his youth the balance had shifted toward the plump side... When he spoke it was in a low rumble, the words rolling around in his stomach before finally arriving at his mouth, something which led many people to follow his commands without stopping to think about them."

- The Adventuress on Henrietta Street

"It must have struck her as notable that his head had been shaved. Though not bald there was only a thin layer of dark hair on his scalp, perhaps what in modern terms might be called a 'skinhead'... It's possible that Sabbath had just decided that hair was a waste of time and effort. His clothes, too, were notable. His portly figure was covered with a loose grey overcoat..."

- The Adventuress on Henrietta Street


 * In fairness, however, he is described as having a cane (albeit a gold-handled one) in later stories. I think, with all of this information, it makes very little sense for it to be Sabbath and a lot more sense to be the Man with the Rosette. Of course this could be proven wrong with some 'Word of God', but if we've already accepted that it's either Sabbath or the Man with the Rosette, it is pretty evident that it's the latter. I do apologize if I broke T:NO WARS in my edit, that definitely wasn't my intent. I should also note that trying to create The Master (The Slow Empire) would be rather silly. If an incarnation of the Master that survived into the Post-War Universe is introduced in a book and in a near-subsequent book we meet an incarnation of the character who is described very similarly with no remarks about regeneration, and the incarnation is notable for being rather mysterious and not introducing themselves, it would only make sense to have them on one page. NoNotTheMemes ☎  16:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I appreciative the exhaustive quote compilation, but I think the discrepancy is well within the range excusable by a lack of coordination between writers. For instance, in History 101 – which in Sabbath's timeline would be set much closer to The Slow Empire than Adventuress is – he's depicted as meticulously cleaning his hands of ink with a scarlet handkerchief (not at all careless about his appearance), and his clothes are consistent with The Slow Empire:

"[He] was dressed in a linen suit, the Doctor noticed, every inch the English gentleman abroad. He was sat on the shadyside of an outside table, his face half hidden under a cream fedora. [...] Sabbath folded his newspapers and put them on the table in front of him. He pulled a scarlet handkerchief from the top pocket of his linen jacket and wiped his hands free of the ink."

- History 101


 * That's a well-groomed hand, just as in The Slow Empire, and a pristine suit, just as in The Slow Empire. The fact that The Slow Empire's description isn't actually as contradictory to Adventuress as originally thought just underlines the point.


 * I'm still waiting for Mr Stone to see my message; however, I think it's self-evident for the reasons I gave above that, as any crossover would have occurred at the behest of and through coordination by range editor Justin Richards, he is a reliable source for Word of God; and as it happens, he's previously weighed in on this exact issue:

"Justin said that Sabbath had made some cameo appearances in the Eighth Doctor range prior to Henrietta Street. Is he able to tell us what they were, or at least give some clues?

Have a look at The Slow Empire and Father Time."

- Justin Richards


 * So unless someone can point to an appearance of Sabbath in The Slow Empire that isn't in the scene(s) under discussion, I think this is a pretty definitive "case closed". – n8 (☎) 13:40, 14 July 2021 (UTC)