Howling:River being pardoned

Okay, River says in TATM that she's been pardoned from prison because the man she killed never existed. This appears to be a nod to the fact that records of the Doctor have been disappearing from databases, something that's been infrequently brought up this series. And yet I find it extremely hard to accept that the authorities would assume the Doctor never existed, so River can't have killed him, just because he isn't mentioned in their records. They would have to have known what it was she had done in order for them to have locked her up in the first place. And in The Time of Angels/Flesh & Stone, one cleric mentions that she killed a very important man, and this can't have been very long before her appearance in TATM. 82.20.113.152talk to me 19:36, October 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * I suppose simply for the sake of the story, (and depending on just how "erased" the Doctor is at that point) one could argue this: If Stormcage has absolutely no records of the Doctor, and are completely unable to find any information from outside sources, then it is possible (maybe not likely, possible) that she could by law argue that she never killed anyone, and they would be forced to let her go. That still doesn't explain the issue of the Clerics claiming to still technically have her in "custody" in a late time frame, but it would explain them still knowing what she did. Also, we have to keep in mind that whatever is happening with this removal of the Doctor from the records is probably going to end up being a problem. One he moist likely will need to undo, either partially or completely. If that situation I started this post with turns out to be true, then when it's undone they may very well just put her back in prison.


 * Or (slightly more likely, and what I'm personally going with for now) maybe this River just happens to be from a much later time period than the versions of her we'll see again soon. Maybe her line about "travelling with him, but not all the time" isn't because she can't, but because she already knows she didn't. That would also explain her comment about being pardoned "ages ago", and how this appearance could still be long after the crash of the Byzantium. I still argue that we don't know for absolute certain that River actually showed up in the last episode with the intention of helping everyone. She was already there before everyone else, and could very well have been doing her own thing when Rory showed up, since she seemed to know so much about what was going on. She knew about the problems with time that were happening there, she seemed to know who Grayle was beforehand, and other people (including Grayle) were already aware of her being called Melody Malone and that she was studying Angels- even though the book had not yet been released in that time period. But getting back to the point about prison: If this is a later River as I described, then it's possible for her to have simply broken out for good and lied about it. Seemingly the only reason for her to have ever kept returning to prison was to keep the Silence from knowing she didn't actually kill him, and either going after him again or worse- using her against him again. Meaning if this is a "late" River, she could be from after the events that stop the Silence for good, and have no reason to stay in prison at all anymore. Saghan ☎  21:08, October 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * History has changed. The clerics never had her in custody after the crash of the Byzantium. None of their dialogue in Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone happened in this new timeline. River turned herself in, or the crew of the Teselecta arrested her, but after a short time in prison, when River became aware that there was no longer any reason for her to pretend to have killed a Doctor who no one has heard of, she decided to get herself out. With no body, no witnesses, and no record of anyone missing, there were no legal grounds to hold her and she was pardoned. Perhaps history will continue to change until she was no longer arrested at all, but for now we only know that her prison time was substantially shorter than it was before and the circumstances of her release were very different. -- Rowan Earthwood ☎  02:47, October 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's almost mandatory that however the Doctor erased his records _must_ have involved changing history. What would be the point of only erasing his records from, say the 51st century, when he has enemies who can travel in time? --70.36.140.233talk to me 03:59, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

The Time of Angels/Flesh & Stone did still happen though, as we see River near the end of The Wedding of River Song, having only just experienced that adventure. And if all records of the Doctor have vanished from all of time, then River would never have been imprisoned in the first place, as you can't be convicted of killing someone who there's no record of ever existing. 82.20.113.152talk to me 15:59, November 10, 2012 (UTC)

Because of the tangled relationship between River's timeline & the Doctor's timeline -- the general trend being one going backwards relative to the other but with numerous exceptions to that trend -- it's quite possible that the reason we're having trouble working out what's happening is that we've seen a consequence (River being pardoned) before we've seen its cause (the records being got at).

82: I wouldn't rely too much on the idea that "you can't be convicted of killing someone who there's no record of ever existing". If there's enough evidence that you did kill someone, even someone who can't be found in records & whose corpse has vanished, you could still be convicted -- in most jurisdictions, anyway.

However, we know that there were witnesses to the shooting who know full-well that it was the Teselecta that was shot: the crew of the Teselecta. They work for someone's Department of Justice, so they're not likely to be very keen on being responsible for keeping River in prison without a really good reason for it. The really good reason, at the time, was the need to convince the Silence that the Doctor was dead, so they would stop trying to kill him. River being pardoned suggests that the need to fool the Silence has somehow been removed. We've not yet seen anything happen that would remove it. The key point there is that we've not yet seen it.

We know (from Dorium in The Wedding of River Song) that there's more to come: the Fields of Trenzalore, the Question, & so on. We also know that there seems likely to be some connection (don't know what) between the new companion who's meant to join the Doctor in the Christmas episode & someone (Oswin) who was exceptionally good at removing records of the Doctor from the Daleks' databases.

All of that points in the same direction -- that River's pardon is the result of events that we'll learn about in episodes yet to be shown. --2.101.48.25talk to me 20:54, November 11, 2012 (UTC)