Talk:Extremis (TV story)

What is real, what is not
Okay, one of the most (if not the most) thing we need to keep in mind when editing about this episode is what is real and what is not. Since most of what we saw was just a "practice Earth", can we really say that, for example, the Twelfth Doctor went in the White House? Can we say that the Pope met the Doctor, Bill and Nardole? Can we say that Bill and Nardole were on CERN? In my opnion, we should not. Probably, the safest way to display information would be to create Twelfth Doctor (Practice Earth), Bill Potts (Practice Earth) (as "practice Earth" was a term used by the "hologram Doctor" to describe the place they were in), and so on, and treat what happened in this episode almost as if this was an "alternate universe" (keep in mind this is only a metaphor I'm using, as it was clear that everything was a simulation). OncomingStorm12th ☎  21:25, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * Of course we should write about it, even if it is not real. If we don't, the article will just contain the execution of Missy as well as the Doctor standing guard. Everything has to be written. And it's not really an alternate universe, as this is projected. It's not a different reality. --DCLM ☎  21:50, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * Afaiu, the issue is not whether or not to write about it (it all is a message "viewed" by the doctor, so it is a part of the episode's continuity), but how to disambiguate between things that happened only in simulation (without writing, like, virtual Bill and virtual Nardole meet the virtual Pope in the virtual Tardis) and those that happened in reality. 5.172.255.84talk to me 22:00, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * Of course I'm not proposing we write only about what was real. As the anonymous user remarked, what I'm aiming is how we should handle the information of the episode. And, again: I'm not saying this was an alternate universe. I left it pretty clear this was merely a metaphor. OncomingStorm12th ☎  22:08, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * Personally I think separate pages should be made for the simulation versions of the characters for example; Twelfth Doctor Projection (Extremis), Bill Potts Projection (Extremis), Nardole Projection (Extremis), but we must not forget that the real versions of the major characters appeared at some point during the episode - The Doctor, Bill, Nardole and Missy all had scenes set in reality - so should be credited too. Xx-connor-xX ☎  22:12, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * How were these things handled on the Amy's Choice (TV story) page? My idea is that we should pretty much handle this in the same way. --DCLM ☎  22:37, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is fair to compare this instance to that of a dream, as these avatars/projections were created to mimic the people rather than actually being then - because even if you are dreaming you are still yourself. Xx-connor-xX ☎  22:46, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * The example that most came to my mind: Moira. Does she appear in this story? For me, is a clear no. It wasn't Moira, it was a computer program acting like Moira. So: it looks like her, it sounds like her, it acts like her, but, by no means it's her. OncomingStorm12th ☎  22:56, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * Best possible example. Xx-connor-xX ☎  23:03, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * This could really need an admin's opinion. --DCLM ☎  23:05, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * Assuming we do take this route, exactly how far should we go with it? As in, should there be "projection" pages for just the main three, or for every character that appeared in the simulation (virtual Pope, virtual president of the United States, etc.)? TheFatPanda ☎  00:34, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * If they were real, we certainly would, so I'd say yes. Potentially, I think we should also make two pages for Penny: the real one and another for the virtual. OncomingStorm12th ☎  00:37, May 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that this is the best route. While the precedent in the past has been to DAB duplicates of characters via their setting or their nature (Jackie Tyler (Pete's World), Second Doctor (clone)), I actually would be find with the idea of naming pages such things as Twelfth Doctor Projection and so on and so forth.


 * Here's a question: Can we presume that for every character within the projection exists a real-world counterpart? I'm leaning in the middle here (for instance, could we consider that the projection of the President correlates to the real President of the DWU?). Narrative evidence supports it, but it is still sort of speculation. OS25 (Talk) 07:22, May 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that we should certainly have separate pages for these versions Twelfth Doctor, Bill and Nardole. The narrative evidence does more than suggest that everybody shown in the simulation exists within the real world, therefore I think that pages for each of these real world characters should be added the wiki. 66 Seconds ☎  20:22, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * Nah, I'm not sure if this is the way to go. I'm not yet directly opposed, because this is what we do with parallel universes, but note this is not even what we do with alternate timelines. All these people's lives followed on for whatever amount of days in the simulation from the lives they had before. None of this, strictly speaking, happened in their real, non-virtual lives, but it doesn't make sense to make two pages for every one-off character in this story. The Pope, for example, is clearly the same Pope as in the regular DWU, but we only ever meet the simulation. You're not seriously suggesting The Pope (Extremis) with one line, and then The Pope (Shadow World) with the events and details of this story? I think it makes most sense, to me right now, to keep things on their main pages, with a "Shadow World" section describing what went on during the course of this simulation. 03:21, May 22, 2017 (UTC)


 * Although I do now agree that we don't need two separate pages for characters whom the Doctor hasn't encountered/mentioned in the real world, I do think it would make sense to have separate pages for at the very least the main three (perhaps Moira and Penny at a stretch). After all, in alternate universes these are often the same characters which have followed different timelines, such as Donna in Turn Left or Amy in The Girl Who Waited. However, in the Shadow World these characters are physically different, despite sharing the same memories. They aren't even the same species - merely projections. The whole history of these characters shouldn't be added to these pages, just the elements which differed in the Shadow World - like with Jackie Tyler (Pete's World). 66 Seconds ☎  13:29, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

How perfect a simulation?
If we're going under the assumption that the virtual world really is as perfect as the Doctor believed, should we assume that any minor factoids revealed about characters in the virtual world also apply to their real counterparts like, for example, Moira apparently being unaware of Bill's sexuality? TheFatPanda ☎  00:44, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * For the record, this is already pretty clear from The Pilot. And yes, this simulation is a direct continuation of the real DWU timeline, sometime after Oxygen. So Moira didn't say any of the things, specifically, that she says here, but if she's unaware of something in the simulation, that's proof enough she doesn't know it in the real DWU. The Doctor says the only way the simulation is not perfect is that it can't make random numbers. 03:25, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

Veritas is the book, not the aliens
It's just a coincidence that the DWU already has a story with similar looking aliens and the word "Veritas". The Monks are not the Veritas. They are not once called "Veritas" in Extremis. Pretty sure all the interviews in DWM 512 refer to the Monks as new aliens. It seems incredibly unlikely that Steven Moffat would bring back an enemy from an hour-long SJA audio book for a major storyline in an important season. CoT    ?  02:26, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * It also seems unlikely that Big Finish would take a one-off character from a Doctor Who Adventures comic and make them a returning character, but they did. We can't really guess a writer's motivation without sources suggesting either way. I reckon we should let this storyline unfold and then we'll know for sure what the Doctor's up against. If at the end of this three parter there's no evidence to suggest they're the same species, then we have a further discussion. The  Farty  Doctor   Talk  02:32, May 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * Which character is that? The Sidewinder Syndicate are the only thing that springs to my mind, and they were recurring DWA characters. Surely the fact that more than three Monks are seen means that they cannot be the Veritas? Like, nothing connects them other than appearance and name. CoT     ?  02:39, May 21, 2017 (UTC)

It was the Viyrans. It marked the first time that Big Finish used an element from "NuWho". I suppose my point is that, although I really understand that the species are not named "The Veritas" and that their agendas are different, I think that everyone should try to stay neutral in this until either it's cleared up on-screen, or until the third part is over and nothing has been said. You're completely right that it's completely random for Moffat to nab something from an SJA audio that very few people have probably listened to. But at the same time, we never really know what he's up to. Let's take Dalek. The team liked the idea provided by Big Finish and adapted it. Only the die-hard fans know what it's adapted from and enjoy the comparisons. I'd like to see an admin's opinion on what we do at the Veritas page. Whether we allow that information to float there or whether we jettison it. I don't think any of us should do it. The Farty  Doctor   Talk  02:45, May 21, 2017 (UTC)

"Imagine if a Silent had died while cosplaying as a member of the Sibylline Sisterhood, then was left to decay for a while, then was brought back to life - if you could call it that - just in time for Judgement Day. That's a Monk."

"...wanted to do a story about monks. We kept calling them Kung Fu Monks - not in the dialogue just in the directions - but we ended up removing the words "Kung Fu" when [it was] pointed out that they did absolutely no Kung Fu..."

- Steven Moffat


 * Ahhhh. Do storybooks count as DWAs? CoT     ?  02:54, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * If you wish to reach a decision before an admin gets a chance to do something, I'm fine with that. We've worked together on numerous things, so I trust your judgement completely. This time in two weeks, we'll have our answer either way and the page(s) will continue to get updated throughout. It'll work itself out eventually. :D The  Farty  Doctor   Talk  03:12, May 21, 2017 (UTC)

If the writer would do said thing is irrelevant. We have no evidence that this was done. There is no proof that the inclusion of these monks was meant to represent a group of aliens from a SJA audio book.

If you are adding information to pages which is likely to be contradicted one week later, then it is speculation. The entire thesis that "These monks = different monks" is based in the fact that this two-parter hasn't told us otherwise yet. Thus, no information about such an idea should be added to pages. OS25 (Talk) 05:08, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * I would like to add here that we are yet to discover the Monks' true species name, it could very well be Veritas. Steven Moffat himself has said that "The Monks" wasn't what they were actually called. --DCLM ☎  00:45, May 22, 2017 (UTC)


 * Despite this, I will bet a significant amount of money that these Monks will not be revealed to be an obscure alien race from a SJA audio book.


 * For instance, in the audio book, the Veristas hate liars. In the TV story, the Monks are being liars. Not the same species at all. OS25 (Talk) 03:07, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

A thousand years
Right after talking about how the regenerative ability would be disabled, Rafando says: "Following termination, the body will be placed in a Quantum Fold chamber, under constant guard, for no less than a thousand years. In case of, shall we say... relapses." OncomingStorm12th ☎  17:34, May 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, and right after this, he adds "An additional stipulation of the Fatality Index is that the sentence must be carried out by another Time Lord.", confirming that the thousand years is a stipulation. OncomingStorm12th ☎  17:34, May 21, 2017 (UTC)

What happens to River's diary?
After Darillium, River goes to The Library carrying her diary with her, which is left there after her death. The Library were filled with Vashta Nerada forever, so no one could ever enter the Library nor get the diary again. So, how (or in wich point of River's timeline) Nardole could get her diary? Then, the Doctor keeps the book with him, so when will it go to the Library again? Will the Doctor delivery the diary to River again at some point or is it a moment after the death in the Library? - sorry about my English, I'm Brazilian, still learning.
 * The Library wasn't forever infested with Vashta Nerada. The Tenth Doctor defeated them and saved every single inhabitant of the planet. Nardole presumably went to the Library at some point after the whole incident to get the book. And then went after the Doctor. Oh, and in future, the talk pages are not for debating things like this. Only for editing of the articles. :) --DCLM ☎  15:28, May 22, 2017 (UTC)