Howling:What is River Song?

There are the following intended mysteries:

1. Daleks are afraid of River Song, even more than being afraid of the Doctor
 * This doesn't really appear to be true. The stone Dalek in Big Bang asks her for mercy, but that is because it is in a very weakened state. It also assumes initially that she will show mercy, and doesn't appear to recognise her other than being an associate of the Doctor (having just seen her with the Doctor).

2. River Song suggests that she and the Doctor are in love or married at one point (calling only the Doctor, honey), but Moffat says that she is very different from what we think. We also know that, according to her, she is either married or she is willing to marry the Eleventh Doctor.

3. River Song demonstrates a mental capacity beyond any known humans and most species that we know of; she could write in Old Gallifreyan (even Jack has not demonstrated a knowledge of alien language let alone an ancient alien language); she could pilot the TARDIS on her own (companions have only shown to be able to use certain functions, even the Doctor is not too good at it) and even minor details like the TARDIS' call-forwarding function and its mechanics and even how to disconnect and connect the TARDIS' cables; she demonstrates an extensive knowledge that has, on numerous occasions, outmatched the Doctor's; she could use the psychic paper to send messages to the Doctor through time and space (an ability only demonstrated by psychic beings stronger than humans); she completely knows how to use a more complex version of the Doctor's sonic screwdriver, that no human, even Jack, has ever demonstrated.
 * This again seems to overstate her abilities. Most of this could have been taught to her by the Doctor.

4. She is destined to show up in 21st Century in Amy's wedding to give the journal to Amy as a wedding present even if the Doctor never existed. Is she slightly immuned to changes in time or is there something in the 21st Century that ties her there?


 * The Diary: When we first see River in prison in TPO she is writing in said diary. This means either 1) She just finished an adventure and is jotting down 2) She keeps the diary to pass the time or doesnt record things as they happen but when she gets a moment 3) She is using that prison time to fabricate one. You will also notice that she is near the very end of it in the prison scene. At some point in the future Amy has to give it back to her. But it looked like Amy just left it at the reception to me. River could have snuck back and got it possibly but at this point its whereabouts are unknown. Did the journal stay blank when the doctor came back or did it all fill back in? 173.57.144.238 03:37, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * The journal filled back in, if you notice the Doctor says 'the writing's all back, but I didn't peek.' Now that the Doctor existed, all their encounters still stand.

5. This incarnation of the Doctor is the one River Song has a lot of the early adventures and she will meet one more 'with a new haircut'

6. The good person River Song murdered happened earlier than The Pandorica Opens in her timeline

6a. If the 'good person' is the Doctor as everyone thought, then together with the Doctor 'with a new haircut', River Song will meet all of Doctor's incarnations from Tenth to Thirteenth.

6b. River Song is imprisoned in Stormcage for the murder, but very few, if any, of the planets we know of considers Doctor a citizen or a guest who's respected enough for the residents to care if he were murdered...

6c. the person River Song murdered is not important enough that forbids her from being pardoned


 * 6d. She returns to Stormcage (either of her own volition or is recaptured—and I find it hard to believe they could recapture her as long as she has that vortex manipulator since she can travel anywhere in space and time) after the events of Big Bang, given that she's on work-release to investigate the Weeping Angels in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone. —Robotech Master 00:46, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

7. She is extremely resourceful, from hallucigenic lipstick to strong explosives and square gun...considering that she's a prisoner

8. River Song's timeline and time aware senses is beyond any specie we've ever seen, even beyond what we have seen from the timelords. In Flesh and Stone, she was able to hold the memory of a complete alternate timeline where the cracks were negated through Big Bang 2 and knows exactly that sharing the information would affect the yet-to-exist timeline.

9. She understands all alien technologies used in the Pandorica, even Jack who has lived a very long time and is exposed to many alien technology through working in Torchwood cannot usually immediately identify any specific technology and its function.

10. Despite having traveled extensively throughout all of time and space and mostly lived in the 51st Century...she has a ridiculously ugly haircut...and she's in a prison too...Curling iron in prison...what/who is she? Could one of her past incarnation be the famous 21st Century figure...Lady Gaga?

The 51st/52nd Century inconsistency...I just don't know if its continuity error or the person is really so important that the sentence across centuries actually make sense, but since we know that the Time Agency has already existed and we have no knowledge of the laws governing criminals who time traveled to another era...I'll just skip it until more clues show up...203.168.176.42 21:31, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

River Song is definately not a time lord/lady. The evidence is everywhere.


 * My new pet theory is that River is a regeneration of the Master no longer insane by the drumming. The "marriage" is just how others perceive their relationship. Just like Martha thought the male verision on the Master was the Doctors brother. 173.57.144.238 21:51, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * That certainly explains her intelligence. The only problem with that is the Doctor couldn't sense her Timelord prescence...neither did she remember the Tenth Doctor from previous encounter...if she were under a chameleon arch, then it provided no real justification for her extensive knowledge of so many alien technology, the Dalek's fear of her, neither her psychic power...and it would also be a hell of a coincident if the Doctor met the Master under a chameleon arch again and both the Master and the Doctor doesn't know the Master's real identity again and an extensive travel with a woman he randomly met turns out his nemesis out of the infinite lives in the Universe...and everything so far points out that timelords under chameleon archs does not retain the time-awareness and other non-human abilities when disguised as human...While I love the Master, River Song as the Master sorts of ruin it for me unless Moffat is really that brilliant...but from someone who wrote a series finale that should be named "the Big Bang of Fatal Death"...I doubt it....203.168.176.42 22:17, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasnt really refering to the chameleon but a regeneration of sorts. People just keep trying to make her Romana or the Rani or Jenny or his mother. If she is a Time Lord the Master makes the most sense. In SitL she even states "I would trust that man to the end of the universe, and trust me we have been there" If you take that literally then it would seem to point to the Master if you exlude Martha and Jack. You could also argue that that is why the Dalek begs for mercy when she tells it to check its databanks in BB. Would some random human companion really strike fear in the Daleks even if she was ruthless? The Master has also "stolen" bodies in the past so that might explain why the doctor doesnt clue in she is a Time Lord. While not a perfect theory, I think you could argue more for the Master than any other established character. Plus I just think its super fun plotwise. 173.57.144.238 00:08, June 28, 2010
 * I wasnt really refering to the chameleon but a regeneration of sorts. People just keep trying to make her Romana or the Rani or Jenny or his mother. If she is a Time Lord the Master makes the most sense. In SitL she even states "I would trust that man to the end of the universe, and trust me we have been there" If you take that literally then it would seem to point to the Master if you exlude Martha and Jack. You could also argue that that is why the Dalek begs for mercy when she tells it to check its databanks in BB. Would some random human companion really strike fear in the Daleks even if she was ruthless? The Master has also "stolen" bodies in the past so that might explain why the doctor doesnt clue in she is a Time Lord. While not a perfect theory, I think you could argue more for the Master than any other established character. Plus I just think its super fun plotwise. 173.57.144.238 00:08, June 28, 2010
 * I wasnt really refering to the chameleon but a regeneration of sorts. People just keep trying to make her Romana or the Rani or Jenny or his mother. If she is a Time Lord the Master makes the most sense. In SitL she even states "I would trust that man to the end of the universe, and trust me we have been there" If you take that literally then it would seem to point to the Master if you exlude Martha and Jack. You could also argue that that is why the Dalek begs for mercy when she tells it to check its databanks in BB. Would some random human companion really strike fear in the Daleks even if she was ruthless? The Master has also "stolen" bodies in the past so that might explain why the doctor doesnt clue in she is a Time Lord. While not a perfect theory, I think you could argue more for the Master than any other established character. Plus I just think its super fun plotwise. 173.57.144.238 00:08, June 28, 2010


 * (UTC)




 * River Song: Doctor, I am a sadistic killer and I'm trying to get rid of this Angel so I can leave Stormcage and kill more people.


 * Doctor: Oh...Okay...Lots of people are sadistic killers...the world needs more sadistic killers like you...Let's help you get rid of the Angel and then let's go and help the Dalek rebuild Skaro...together. By the way, River Song, will you marry me despite that I have only met you once and you piss me off? I love sadistic killers who carry around hand-cuffs. I have a Dalek fetish -- that's why I always keep some of them alive. You are special: you're not just any sadistic killer, you also have the face of a Dalek...even your hairstyle reminds me of the Human-Dalek I met back in Manhattan.


 * 203.168.176.42 20:03, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's probably not the case, but I like to think she's the Rani, and that she's not under a chameleon arch but fully aware of it. She could also be the master if Time Lords (/Ladies) are capable of changing gender, which seems unlikely simply because the doctor and the master have only had male incarnations so far, and if the race sexually reproduces this might be one limit of regeneration because that would make sense under evolution and natural selection. Anyway, if she is the Rani, she may be deliberately decieving the doctor by use of a developed perception filter or similar (she was a scientist). It would also increase the likelihood of a serious relationship between the two, as they're the same species. Although she often worked against the doctor in the past, she was not evil, she only believed her science was more important than right or wrong, and even if her original intentions are negative, or against the doctor, she might fall for him, or go back to him apologetically once the presumed killing of one of his incarnations takes place. It all seems to fit really well, but it would be pretty interesting if she was the master too. Though I wonder if Moffat's going to go for something even more suprising than either of them? 86.173.66.5 00:20, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just read the page on Rani here and at the end of the article is written: "It has been confirmed that it will be impossible for the Rani to return in the revived series as the character's creators have not allowed to transfer their copyright of the character to any of the new producers, though it may happen one day where the copyright will be taken." So I doubt that this character will return.95.103.59.12 00:37, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, in that case, even if the Rani will come back one day it's almost definitely not as River Song, because Moffat couldn't assure that he'd get the copyright and thus wouldn't write her that way. I know he hasn't written all the episodes with her yet, but I reckon he already knows exactly who she is, and most of the major events between her and the doctor... That leaves it more likely to be the Master than the Rani, but likelier still something even less obvious.86.173.66.5 01:21, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think River is something big, and we'll all be shocked when we find out who she really is, but I'm really doubting that she's an already established character. I hope Moffat just makes her something new, and his 'she's not what you'll expect,' intrigues me, because I think I'd be disappointed if she as something as obvious as a Time Lady. I just hope Steven Moffat is Mr Genius when it comes to her :) 220.237.124.247 03:07, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he will be, because at this stage we dont know much about her and the 'she's not what you'll expect' line makes me think that what we assume her to be, and everything that we find out at the minute is exactly what moffat wants us to think and the reality will be very different 217.23.232.194 08:10, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it would be interesting if she turned out to be either an adult version or a regenerated incarnation of Jenny. DigiFluid 08:43, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * It would require some really good writing to make me believe that River is the Master. Romana? I hope not. They'd probably ignore all the spin-off material and show her surviving the Time War by still being in E-Space. Romana becoming President is one of the only the only things the different spin-offs agree on. Having her back in E-Space would require a lot of retconning. As for the Rani, seems very unlikely. Just about every mysterious female character is supposedly the Rani. How about Iris Wildthyme? She's the only Time Lady (if she really is a Time Lady) that I'd be comfortable River Song turning out to be. TemporalSpleen 08:53, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hell, why does everyone keep suggesting that River Song is a Timelord/Timelady...she's smart, but she would have to say a lot of lies to pretend that someone taught her how to pilot the TARDIS and it's really odd for her to write in Old Gallifreyan instead of the more common Gallifreyan language...not to mention how she refers to Timelord physiologies in a distant/foreign tone...
 * As for the Rani theory...if it's the Rani with a 180 degree change in personality offscreen...then what's the point? It's just bringing back the name and not the character...
 * As for Jenny, great timelord sense, Doctor! You can't even recognize your own daughter...Though now that we see the Tenth could delay regeneration, Jenny's regeneration could possibly have been triggered but just delayed rather than just being healed...so she could look like anything now...but it's just stupid if she were River Song203.168.176.42 10:26, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think there'd be such an abundance of innuendo and allusions to marriage written in if she was going to turn out to be Jenny. Sure, it would be unexpected, but personally would be a bit creeped out. Also, the Rani wouldn't have to take an 180degree personality change in order to be River Song. She always put her work before anything else, though was occasionally shown to have compassion, and wasn't 'evil for evil's sake' as such. But, I suppose that if it did change her personality it might ruin the character. I think people keep suggesting River is a Timelord more because of our excitement if there was another time lord out there, not because it's logical. But, I think that'd be too expected for Moffat, and I'm sure it's actually something way more interesting. 86.164.120.218 23:14, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think River's going to show up younger (hopefully with sporadic appearances by Alex Kingston in a 'Ghost of Christmas Future' capacity), and will be despicable, psychotic, and completely unredeemable. Roll tape... She may even rise to be one of the great villains (actually, with the dynamic tension, she must), possibly even committing 'that murder' while still in this phase of her character development. Wibbly-Wobbly 06:52, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is what I'd like to see too. A repentance-redemption story arc where we see the end first (with the 'heavenly reward') and then work back into her being a nasty peice of work (even killing a Doc) and then even further back to her 'origins'. It would be nice to see how the Doc turns her around. Interesting time-travel theme too as we see her life 'unwind'. Jack Chilli 07:41, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wanted to say that going back even further into 'origins' would be intersting a well. Can't possibly have River be the one girl in Moffat's tenure that didn't recieve a childhood visitation. Wibbly-Wobbly 01:18, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think whoever it is, it has to be somebody known to the Doctor, either directly or by reputation, because remember the dialog with Father Octavian "He doesn't know who you are" - "If he knew who I was he wouldn't help me" or something along those lines. 187.59.127.248 18:32, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * well...being a murderer certainly doesn't sound like a likeable person whom someone barely knows would be keen on helping...
 * As for the Rani theory...if it's the Rani with a 180 degree change in personality offscreen...then what's the point? It's just bringing back the name and not the character...
 * As for Jenny, great timelord sense, Doctor! You can't even recognize your own daughter...Though now that we see the Tenth could delay regeneration, Jenny's regeneration could possibly have been triggered but just delayed rather than just being healed...so she could look like anything now...but it's just stupid if she were River Song203.168.176.42 10:26, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think there'd be such an abundance of innuendo and allusions to marriage written in if she was going to turn out to be Jenny. Sure, it would be unexpected, but personally would be a bit creeped out. Also, the Rani wouldn't have to take an 180degree personality change in order to be River Song. She always put her work before anything else, though was occasionally shown to have compassion, and wasn't 'evil for evil's sake' as such. But, I suppose that if it did change her personality it might ruin the character. I think people keep suggesting River is a Timelord more because of our excitement if there was another time lord out there, not because it's logical. But, I think that'd be too expected for Moffat, and I'm sure it's actually something way more interesting. 86.164.120.218 23:14, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think River's going to show up younger (hopefully with sporadic appearances by Alex Kingston in a 'Ghost of Christmas Future' capacity), and will be despicable, psychotic, and completely unredeemable. Roll tape... She may even rise to be one of the great villains (actually, with the dynamic tension, she must), possibly even committing 'that murder' while still in this phase of her character development. Wibbly-Wobbly 06:52, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is what I'd like to see too. A repentance-redemption story arc where we see the end first (with the 'heavenly reward') and then work back into her being a nasty peice of work (even killing a Doc) and then even further back to her 'origins'. It would be nice to see how the Doc turns her around. Interesting time-travel theme too as we see her life 'unwind'. Jack Chilli 07:41, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wanted to say that going back even further into 'origins' would be intersting a well. Can't possibly have River be the one girl in Moffat's tenure that didn't recieve a childhood visitation. Wibbly-Wobbly 01:18, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think whoever it is, it has to be somebody known to the Doctor, either directly or by reputation, because remember the dialog with Father Octavian "He doesn't know who you are" - "If he knew who I was he wouldn't help me" or something along those lines. 187.59.127.248 18:32, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * well...being a murderer certainly doesn't sound like a likeable person whom someone barely knows would be keen on helping...
 * This is what I'd like to see too. A repentance-redemption story arc where we see the end first (with the 'heavenly reward') and then work back into her being a nasty peice of work (even killing a Doc) and then even further back to her 'origins'. It would be nice to see how the Doc turns her around. Interesting time-travel theme too as we see her life 'unwind'. Jack Chilli 07:41, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wanted to say that going back even further into 'origins' would be intersting a well. Can't possibly have River be the one girl in Moffat's tenure that didn't recieve a childhood visitation. Wibbly-Wobbly 01:18, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think whoever it is, it has to be somebody known to the Doctor, either directly or by reputation, because remember the dialog with Father Octavian "He doesn't know who you are" - "If he knew who I was he wouldn't help me" or something along those lines. 187.59.127.248 18:32, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * well...being a murderer certainly doesn't sound like a likeable person whom someone barely knows would be keen on helping...

Moffat loves romances, the tension of lovers out of sync in time, the dynamic of their different levels of knowledge at different points in their relationship, the allowances they each have to make for the erratic nature of their relationship, and the sense of love in the face of the inevitable end. I can't help but think that he and I have the same favorite book... And bravo for finally putting the titular character in the driver's seat! I am certain that the 'teaching how to be human' will happen on both sides of this relationship, though. Wibbly-Wobbly 01:18, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

River Song a Time Lady? LMAO... fanwank, not gonna happen. She is a mysterious human/near-human, and the implied wife and murder of the Doctor, who timeline is not in sync with his own. There. Delton Menace 06:15, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well if she is mife-murderer then the likelyhood is that she killed him in a 'domestic'; that's a common cause of mariticide. Which of the Doctors annoying habbits are so bad that they would lead you to kill him? I'm thinking that he was always late to dinner and as he's got a time machine there really is _no_ excuse for that kind of thing. The never changing his clothes thing is a bit disturbing too. Jack Chilli 07:42, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

It would be really rough if she is the Master, just imagine:

Doctor 13 and the Master meet. The Master: "Hello Doc. You are in your 13th regeneration. If I kill you now you die for ever. Ha ha ha !". Master shoots the Doc., fatally wounding him. Doc shoots the Master back, fatally wounding the Master. The Master regenerates and River appears. River: "Hello Sweetie". The Doc: "Oh noooooo.......". Dies. The End. 187.59.127.248 10:36, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

I really, really, REALLY doubt that River is a Time Lady. Or a Lord. Or Jenny. Or his mother. Or Jack. Or Jack's daughter. Or Jack's daughter's daughter. Or Rose, or Donna, or Martha, or The Rani. I don't think River is anyone we already know - or not someone major. I think she will be major, yes, but in a different way. In her own way :) 220.237.124.247 13:05, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

What if River is the TARDIS. Some wacky Who techno babble and BAM! the TARDIS gets a body. This may be nothing but if you notice the stuff in River's cell aside from books there is a wooden apple. Wonder if there is any connection to Amy's apple somehow. 173.57.144.238 23:31, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think that 173 might be onto something - River always calls the doctor "sweetie, honey etc" and the doctor has called the TARDIS "dear" and "sexy". The TARDIS is definitely alive (they are grown not built) and could probably be manifested into a person...

however i don't think she'll kill the doc, it'll probably be Rory or some future companion who gets killed by her (maybe even the master). they won't kill off the doctor, (Moffat said he'd deal with the regeneration limit in a cheeky way, so it'll definitely go past dr.13.

also, river can't be the Rani. its impossible due to some legal/copyright thing. check her page. 202.150.119.218 08:28, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I know who River Song is! She is.................... HERSELF! How smart am I?! I mean, seriously. C'mon, people, who else would she be other than... herself? Delton Menace 22:22, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Moreover...who taught her to turn off the brake and the TARDIS' blue stabilizer thing when the current incarnation has no idea about these stuff...(not to mention how odd it is that you're not suppose to leave your brake on when you're stopping....)--222.166.181.96 10:29, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Easy.. the doctor in ToA didnt know about the blue stabilizer, but he saw River do it so he could've easily tought her about it in the future (earlier in her timeline, later in his).. Just like Time Crash.94.187.77.178 11:24, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Really I'd expect that the Doctor did know about the stabilizers and the breaks, but chooses not to use them and feigned not knowing (as he often does with things) in order to avoid the argument of why he's not using them. Hence his comment about them being boring, and his quip, "you call that 'flying' the TARDIS?" There have been many occasions of him flying the TARDIS where it seemed perfectly stabilized and where it did not make the trademark materialisation sound when landing. Spreee 17:38, August 12, 2010 (UTC)Spreee

I am Great toa nui and I think that she must be Omega or another time micanist who has made a mistake while trying to take over history. That would explain when she called "I'm sorry my love".

If my thery is true then she relly Could be the docters wife all along.

Expanding on the apple link between River and Pond from 173. The Doctor trusts River because she knows his real name. When meeting the Dream Lord, who is part of the Doctor, he taunts her by saying she doesn't even know his real name. The Dream Lord attempts to force her to choose between the Doctor and Rory. There is also the common theme of water in their names. Finally a quick search of baby names shows that Amy means "Beloved", perhaps beloved of the doctor?196.216.59.2 20:35, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

I think we need to think less about wo river song is and more about what she is to the Doctor, and what makes 'everything change' and why. the thing isthere is very little concrete evidence for anything, other than subtle things put in by the writers like possibly the apple. all we no for certian at the minute is what we have been told by river herself when she was in the library and the end of the big bang, and father octavian, but river herself never give away any 'spoilers' so we need to concentrate on what we know for certian rather than randomly guessing at things, also we should bare in mind what steven moffat said about river being totally different from what the fans will think, because the conclusions that we come to may very well be the conclusions that he wants us to come to, and she will be a totaly different character from what she appears 217.23.232.194 08:14, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, when I read this: "...what steven moffat said about river being totally different from what the fans will think, because the conclusions that we come to may very well be the conclusions that he wants us to come to, and she will be a totaly different character from what she appears..." my first thought was, "God, she must be...God." Then I remembered what Captain Jack taught us about the afterlife. BTW, does anyone remember seeing River and Rose in the same place at the same time? Dusty.crockett 05:37, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

No, River Song and Rose have never been in the same place at the same time. River has also never been seen with Jo Grant, Jack Harkness, Gwen Cooper, Jamie Mcrimmon, Peri, and every other companion in the show apart from Donna, Amy and Rory. Rose is trapped in a parrallel universe, and doesn't have the ability to change her appearance. River isn't another character in disguise, she is a new character, created in Silence in the Library, who will somehow be totally different from what fans will think.Icecreamdif 16:09, October 15, 2010 (Utc)

The universe was rebooted in TBB, so the Time war might not havr happened, so RS could, infact be part of a non-destroyed tl civilisation. Dragonfree 5000! 17:09, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

@Dragonfree, then what was she before Big Bang Two? She's not a Time Lady as it stands. The Doctor would know "in there". Could be a Chamelion Arch, but I doubt Moffat has such a poor storyline for her. At the current time, she is a Near-Human/Human with a connection to the Doctor. That's it.Nothing more, nothing less - '' I. Am. Excalibur-117''-(talk • contribs) 17:40, October 18, 2010 (UTC)