Howling:5 things to look for: finale Doctor

This one's been mentioned all over fandom, and it's interesting enough to watch for.

The theory is that in the 2-part finale, the Doctor will go back to the first 11 episodes--and some of the scenes with the Doctor that we see in these first 11 episodes are actually the finale Doctor going back into his past.

Each of these has other explanations (although in FaS the only good explanation seems to be "serious production error"), but let me ignore those and just list the scenes and how the theory explains them.


 * The Eleventh Hour: When little Amelia hears the TARDIS in the night, then it fades to grown-up Amy hearing the TARDIS in the night. This scene is juxtaposing finale-Doctor actually coming back to give Amelia a message (which he somehow gets her to forget until the time is right) and current-Doctor coming back to pick Amy up.
 * The Doctor is recognised by the old lady at 28.55 who says "i know you, i have seen you before". The Doctor replies: "not me. Brand new face". Maybe at some point in the future he returns to this time period prior to this scene.
 * The Beast Below: Why did Liz 10 know that the Doctor would do "the glass thing"? Because finale-Doctor came back earlier and put a glass on the ground. Liz 10 tried to figure out why anyone would do such a thing, which is how she figured out that there are no engines, and also how she figured out that he must have been the legendary Doctor. (Also, look at 12:40, where the current-Doctor sees a glass on the floor and seems to be puzzled about why it's there.)
 * Victory of the Daleks: ??? (Yay, another excuse to watch it again.:))
 * The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone: This is the one that got everyone started on the whole theory. The Doctor lost his jacket, and ran around without it. And then, in the scene where he tells Amy to remember what he told her when he was 7, he's wearing a jacket. And not even the same jacket; he wears the light one in TToA/FoS, but the dark one in this scene. And his sleeves are rolled up. And his interaction with Amy is much kinder than what we've seen in the first 5 episodes. And the significance of the "Time can be rewritten!" line is either that he's just started to plan out what he's going to do, or he's just realized that a future self of his is already running around doing so (and maybe that explains something odd he's seen--like the glass in TBB).

So, why would the Doctor be running around through his own past like this? Either to fix what's broken, or to fix Amy so she can save the universe or avoid destroying it, or just to set things up that he's going to need for the big showdown.

Of course this last possibility is straight out of Moffat's first-ever Who work, The Curse of Fatal Death, so, if he actually does that one, I'd love to see a tiny throwaway reference. (I can't think of a good one--farting, referring to Amy's "etheric beam locators" being very firm, etc. would all be totally out of place. But there's a reason Moffat got the job instead of me.:)) --Falcotron 15:13, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I like it! And SM said he wanted to stories that actually used time travel effectively...RUMyMommy 17:38, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

One more thing (again, just forwarding someone else's idea, so don't give me credit):

Finale-Doctor knows how to land the TARDIS silently. It seems likely that, if Moffat is sending the Doctor back into the first 11 episodes, he's going to have to use that at some point to "sneak in" somewhere. Probably with someone who knows (or knows of) the Doctor but doesn't know he can land silently, like Churchill or Liz 10--or, even better, like himself, Amy, or River before River taught him. --Falcotron 02:41, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Another point: When TEH first aired, a few people pointed out that some of the pictures, dolls, etc. of the Raggedy Doctor weren't actually raggedy. --Falcotron 18:33, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

See, I've watched that episode and looked at the site, and I really can't see any "non-raggedy" Doctors. :S Can anyone be more specific? Cannon881 10:17, May 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I don't have my copy of the first 2 episodes anymore... but at the time, it was definitely mentioned by fans in multiple places (forums, blogs, I thin even this site). After I get another copy and rewatch it myself, if I don't see it, I'll try to track down who said it and whether they have more details. --Falcotron 12:25, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * at least one doctor doll isn't raggedy. I think personally it's worth checking Vampires in Venice for more of the same theme Lu-igi board
 * That's brilliant about "The Eleventh Hour" - I'd been wondering the same thing about that scene where the TARDIS sound is heard and young Amy smiles. That would make sense - especially since I've been going over all the scenes between the Doctor and young Amy over and over again and I can't figure out for the life of me what she's supposed to be "remembering". I really think you're on to something here. Bluebox444 10:56, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * See 'Raggedy doctor dolls / spoiler' lower down the list of threads... I posted this idea over a month ago on the howling and Cannon881 you pooh poohed it on April 8th sayng it was just 14 years dirt making some of the dolls look different. My point was that the doctor dolls are wearing 2 distinct different sets of clothes, the blue shirt raggedy dr outfit, and the smarter brown shirt outfit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/episodes/b00rs6t7/galleries/design_art
 * That's brilliant about "The Eleventh Hour" - I'd been wondering the same thing about that scene where the TARDIS sound is heard and young Amy smiles. That would make sense - especially since I've been going over all the scenes between the Doctor and young Amy over and over again and I can't figure out for the life of me what she's supposed to be "remembering". I really think you're on to something here. Bluebox444 10:56, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * See 'Raggedy doctor dolls / spoiler' lower down the list of threads... I posted this idea over a month ago on the howling and Cannon881 you pooh poohed it on April 8th sayng it was just 14 years dirt making some of the dolls look different. My point was that the doctor dolls are wearing 2 distinct different sets of clothes, the blue shirt raggedy dr outfit, and the smarter brown shirt outfit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/episodes/b00rs6t7/galleries/design_art
 * See 'Raggedy doctor dolls / spoiler' lower down the list of threads... I posted this idea over a month ago on the howling and Cannon881 you pooh poohed it on April 8th sayng it was just 14 years dirt making some of the dolls look different. My point was that the doctor dolls are wearing 2 distinct different sets of clothes, the blue shirt raggedy dr outfit, and the smarter brown shirt outfit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/episodes/b00rs6t7/galleries/design_art


 * If young Amy hadn't seen the Doctor again after waiting in the garden with her blue duffle coat on, how would she have known he had changed his clothes. And there is a doll of Amy wearing her duffle coat too, and some of the models and drawings of the tardis are standing upright and not broken next to the shed 86.26.137.154 06:53, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! A picture is worth more than 1000 words of me vaguely remembering that some people said some stuff 5 weeks ago. :)

Even though both outfits look somewhat "raggedy", it is pretty clearly two completely different outfits, one of which is the one she saw early in TEH and one of which isn't. --Falcotron 09:07, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't "pooh pooh" it. I just said it was difficult to make out. I always make a point of saying that what I think is MY OPINION. If I was going to "pooh pooh" your idea, as you so elegantly put it, I'd point out that the doll on the far left has patches of blue on it's arms and stomach. I think it's a brilliant theory, but I'm just not entirely sure about the shirts. From what I can see, the brown shirted Doctor appears to be wearing pinstripe trousers? Cannon881 13:44, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

no Doctor doll has a bow-tie. does this dissprove the idea, or has this been done purposely (ie: the doctor will wear a tie, or a bow tie would practically confirm they had met again.)? Lu-igi board


 * Good point.


 * One thing to keep in mind is that these are the early design concepts released by the BBC on their website, not what was actually seen on-screen. It's always possible that these were done before 11's "costume" was finalized; it's probably worth looking at the video/screencaps to see if he's wearing a bowtie in the final version, just to make sure. But probably he isn't, which is a serious problem for the theory. --Falcotron 00:27, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Watched TEH end again and it does seem to be the same versions used in the epiosde as shown in the design art piccy. But also just prior to this at 101.29 when the Tardis leaves, the widescreen shot shows a light on in the middle upper room, can I make out a figure standing in the window possibly wearing a brown jacket? 86.26.137.154 07:27, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * i was just thinking there when it hit me: what if the doctor causes the cracks? this may have been discussed before, but what if the cracks exist because there were two versions of the Doctor there? its kind of a far fetched theory but its just a theoryOoiue 07:39, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * i was just thinking there when it hit me: what if the doctor causes the cracks? this may have been discussed before, but what if the cracks exist because there were two versions of the Doctor there? its kind of a far fetched theory but its just a theoryOoiue 07:39, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * i was just thinking there when it hit me: what if the doctor causes the cracks? this may have been discussed before, but what if the cracks exist because there were two versions of the Doctor there? its kind of a far fetched theory but its just a theoryOoiue 07:39, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

I was watching TeH to sort of recap on what we saw in this episode and watched the trailer at the end there are a couple of clips of the docotor with a mirror running down a street it could possibly be Venice. The way he had the mirror it appeared he was looking to see what was around, maybe looking for himself? This could support the finale doctor theory. Danisfunny 16:25, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * AmysWindow.png Very hard to tell, but I don't think it's the Doctor. I'm not even sure it's a person--and if it is, it seems to be someone with a heavier face, a lot less hair, and possibly a moustache. Maybe someone else can get a better screen grab? I think I pulled this one off the 480p instead of the 1080p.... --Falcotron 07:49, May 11, 2010 (UTcC0

Infact after seeing pictures of tVoV again, I am certain the doctor in this picture is in Venice. Danisfunny 16:32, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

ive just had another thought...what if, the cracks exits, for some unknown reason, but the Doctor uses them to travel to everywhere he has been. Since its always been in an episode, it makes sense for him to use 1 crack and expand it into every time frame he's been into, what do you think?Ooiue 17:23, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Just watched VoD again, picking up on Falcotron's first post here. Amy says towards the end in what comes across as a jokey exchange that she thought it would just be 'running through time, being daft and fixing stuff', and we know they arrived a month after Churchill phoned so they could stop Bracewell creating the ironsides in the 1st place 86.26.137.154 07:59, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well, its quite evident we have 3 peices of information from this series so far. The Cracks, The Silence and The Pandorica. Just need the other 2....Ooiue 18:08, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless the cracks and silence are the same thing. ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( Talk ) ☆ 19:05, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think all 3 of those would be the same thing. The opening of the Pandorica creates the Cracks and the Cracks cause the Silence. That seems to be the chain of events regarding those 3. V00D00M0NKY 09:15, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I have one for Victory of the Daleks.
 * The scene where the door opens and the soldier quickly tells whoever did it to "put the light out".
 * It's rather random and unexplained, and we never find out who opened it.
 * Clutching at straws here, but still, possibility. Ghadius 18:59, May 22, 2010 (UTC)Ghadius
 * there is also the message that Amy left for herself in the beast bellow, warning herself to stop the docotr investigateing. altho this could have been recorded during the 20 minutes that she 'forgot'
 * there is also the message that Amy left for herself in the beast bellow, warning herself to stop the docotr investigateing. altho this could have been recorded during the 20 minutes that she 'forgot'
 * there is also the message that Amy left for herself in the beast bellow, warning herself to stop the docotr investigateing. altho this could have been recorded during the 20 minutes that she 'forgot'
 * there is also the message that Amy left for herself in the beast bellow, warning herself to stop the docotr investigateing. altho this could have been recorded during the 20 minutes that she 'forgot'


 * That one, I think is just Amy recording it during those 20 minutes. They have the recording facilities there. And presumably it's for basically the same purpose she used it for--so you can record a message reassuring yourself that you made the right decision (but probably censored so you can't sneak information out, of course). So, why would she need to come back from the future to leave that message? For that matter, what would be the point of coming back from the future to leave that message anyway? --Falcotron 04:44, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * There was a big record button between the protest and forget buttons. I'm pretty sure she recorded the message for herself then and there. V00D00M0NKY 10:16, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Okey dokey, I'm just going to play Devil's Advocate for a bit. For the record, I LOVE this theory, but I've been going over the cited examples and I don't think it completely holds water. To elaborate:


 * The old lady in TEH that says "I know you" - probably this was a set-up for the last scene reveal of all Amy's Raggedy Doctors. Along with the line from Rory about her "imaginary friend" growing up, this is part of building up Amy's lifelong obsession with the Doctor.
 * The scene of little Amy waiting for the Doctor, and hears the TARDIS, then cuts to adult Amy waking up - I interpreted this as her having a dream, and hearing the TARDIS while still asleep.
 * The Glass Thing - This one is the hardest to disprove. But... it's implied that Liz X figured out the lack of engines with glasses of water, and, having "grown up on the stories" of the Doctor's encounter with previous monarchs, expected that when he showed up, he'd figure it out in a minute.
 * The "Put that light out!" scene - Probably just a reminder of blackout during the Blitz.
 * The "Remember what I told you when you were seven..." scene - I'm going to go with production error about the jacket. The change in demeanor, well, this Doc has shown some shifts in mood on occasion. And what did he tell her when she was seven? It's at 5:35 in TEH: "I'm the Doctor. Do everything I tell you, don't ask stupid questions, and don't wander off."

Now, that's not to say that there isn't something going on that has yet to be revealed. At the very end of TEH, the Doctor has one of the Cracks on the TARDIS monitor. Meanwhile, Amy asks, "Why me?" and, while answering, the Doctor turns off the monitor before Amy can see it. Couple this with the "If I always told the truth, you wouldn't have to trust me" line for FaS, and it seems like the Doc knows more than he's telling. Monkey with a Gun 02:33, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I suspect that, if this theory is true, the Moff still made sure to write everything so some of the "evidence" is stuff we'll never figure out in advance, and the rest of it is stuff that could be explained away. He's trying to go back into his own past secretly, and make sure his earlier self doesn't figure out what's happening (to avoid nasty temporal paradoxes and Blinovitch Effects and Reapers and so on). Since we don't get to see that much more than the Doctor, anything good enough to completely fool him will be almost good enough to fool us. --Falcotron 12:12, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * One completely different possibility that a few people have brought up in various places: Maybe 11 is a lot more like 7 than he appears, and he's actually been plotting this whole thing out from the start. He's been using Amy and Rory without their knowledge (but hopefully to their benefit, as well as the whole universe's), just as he did with Ace. That would be a good explanation for the whole "why me" scene, certainly. Maybe the whole point is to force the "silent menace" into the open so he can deal with it once and for all.


 * I personally like the "finale Doctor desperately trying to fix things in his own recent timeline" idea a lot more than the "manipulative Doctor setting up a massive trap for an enemy" idea, but I can't convincingly eliminate the second one as a possibility. --Falcotron 12:18, May 28, 2010 (UTC)