Talk:Totem (short story)

It is a violation of our archiving policy for the archive at right to have been created in the middle of a discussion. But I'm breaking that policy in this case because the multiple violations of T:DISCUSS and T:NPA could be stopped from getting worse by doing so. When this page re-opens for discussion, please talk only about the editing of this article — or you will be blocked. 03:17: Fri 15 Feb 2013
 * This talk page is now reopened to editing 04:10: Fri 15 Feb 2013

Location

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We've established so far that the locations mentioned in the story are clearly indicative of Madeira, but the text never gives that island location. It confusingly gives a Spanish title for the lead character — Señora — when it should have used Senhora, if the author had really intend us to read Madeira into the situation. There is something weird about that use of Señora if we're meant to think Portuguese.

I would love to just say Madeira and walk away, since, frankly, I love Madeira. As a one-time visitor to that island, I would love to just say that it's a part of the DWU, full stop/ But I can't figure out why in the world the author is using Spanish, since Madiera has no significant Spanish population and has always been in Portuguese hands. And I mean always. The first settlers were Portuguese. It was never in Spanish hands, so you can't dismiss the Spanish Señora like you could if this were Morocco. Also, the place names actually do work in Spanish, so it's just as plausible to believe that the author is creating a fictional Spanish-speaking place, where she's just thrown in a few words she picked up on holiday to Madeira.

So, bearing T:NO RW in mind, what do others feel most comfortable with doing?

Should we:


 * Dismiss the Señora thing as a production error and insist that this is most logically Madeira and she is therefore Portuguese.
 * Assert that the lady herself is Spanish but somehow resident on Madeira
 * Call it Madeira, but don't assert that it's part of Portugual. Assume that Spanish is spoken on it because of the lady's title.
 * Apply T:NO RW strictly and go with "an unknown Spanish-speaking country". Assume that the author is deliberately trying to fudge the geography by mixing Spanish with Madeira locations.  (Such fudging happens with regularity in DW fiction. Don't believe me?  I refer you the Great State of Malebolgia,  Or Winnipesaukee, New Hampshire. Or, heck, Leadworth, England.  Or the fact that Torchwood was supposedly underneath Cardiff.  Or that UNIT has a base under the Tower of London and in Mount Snowdon.)
 * Do something I haven't thought of 04:09: Fri 15 Feb 2013
 * Dismissing it as a production error seems the most logical to me. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 04:22, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm with OS on this one. Production error. The way I see it, "Señora" is the only thing tying her to a Spanish country. For all we know, she originally came from a Spanish country and moved to Portugal. But speculation. Anyways, at least in the real world, "Madeira" is Portugese for "wood." Why would a Spanish country use a Portuguese word to name a place? I just think the tiny production error of "señora" is the only thing contradicting this. [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 04:36, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Check the story again. It doesn't mention Madeira, it mentions two places that in the real world are in Madeira. If the story mentioned Madeira we wouldn't need this discussion. Shambala108 ☎  06:14, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Right. Sorry. She mentions Machico and Funchal. My point still stands with "funchal," which means "fennel" in Portuguese. [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 06:23, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, it's mentioned that she takes a walk and gazes at Pico de Facho ("Peak of the Torch" in Portuguese), which, in the real world, is on Santo Porto Island. Unless the "wander through the fields" also involved swimming across an ocean to another island, it takes place on Santo Porto Island, if we are to apply the real world. Which we're not. [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 07:14, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

I was all for Madeira/Portugal until I heard Czechout's explanation about Senora. Now my vote is for leaving the infobox blank and calling it a story with unknown location. We have two pieces of conflicting real world info: places names and character title. If we are to apply T:NO RW it should apply to both pieces of information. Shambala108 ☎  06:40, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * In my eyes, at least, the place names is more important. In the real world, "senora" can be explained away at least a dozen different ways: it was during or soon after Spain's occupation of Portugal; she moved from Spain to Portugal, not very far I might say; her ancestors moved from Spain or simply kept their Spanish traditions and passed them down generations down to her; her husband was Spanish and employed "Senor" so she employed "Senora" in his honour... I could go on forever. Obviously, this is all speculation. But it certainly does mean that her employment of "senora" does not necessarily mean that it doesn't take place in Portugal.
 * Let's look at the place names now, assuming it takes place in Spain or any Spanish country. The only explanation is that, in the DWU, these places are in Spain, and Spain named places after Portuguese words, because they got bored.
 * I think it makes more sense that a woman in Portugal would call herself "senora" than Spanish places having Portuguese names. It would be speculation to think that, because one person uses the name "senora," which can be explained away in a million different ways, this story doesn't take place in Portugal, despite every definite evidence to the contrary. [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 07:14, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you're slightly confused, SOTO. We're not talking about the village of Madeira on the Spain/Portugal frontier.  We're talking about the island of Madeira.  The one that's on the same parallel as Casablanca, Morocco. The one that's 2 days away even by modern shipping lanes — much less old sailing vessels.  The one that's 1200km away from the closest point in Portugal, and something like 1500km from the closest point of (modern day, mainland) Spain.


 * This is an island that has always been under Portuguese administration (even when nominally a part of Spain), and been continuously populated almost entirely by Portuguese-spaeakers. The fact she's called Señora is not at all as easily explainable as you pretend.


 * If we're going to say it's Madeira, we can't just ignore the use of Señora. The author chose to give us that clue.  The question is why, and what do we do about within the bounds of T:NO RW.  00:59: Sat 16 Feb 2013


 * Hmmm... But, in the real world, obviously the author didn't purposely make that mistake as a "clue." It's a simple production error: either by lack of extensive research, or by the spelling getting lost on the way until it got published. I personally think we should view "senora" as just that, a production error, and, because of the three or four real-world Portugese land marks, state the setting as Portugal.


 * Maybe, however, we should just leave it at "Madeira," (and not include what country the island's situated in) and address in the BTS section how, in the real world, Madeira's in Portugal, and how this was seemingly contradicted in-narrative by the use of the word "senora." If we reach no conclusion soon, we should just go with this. --SOTO ☎ 01:23, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Date
One other thing that seems to have been forgotten in the date. The article states it is "early 20th Century", when there is nothing that even hints at a date. While my knowledge of geography is rather shaky, I do know without having to Google, that from 1580-1640, Portugal was part of Spain. I realize that is a lot of OR, but it does explain how a Portuguese person in Portugal may be addressed by a Spanish title. Long shot I know, but who decided "early 20th Century"? Master of Spiders ☎  05:40, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * You make an amazing point here, MOS. The date. While it's speculation to say that it happened between 1580 and 1640, or that she came from a Spanish country, or that it takes place after 1640, but not too far afterwards that the woman wouldn't use the word "senora." If such words were used while Portugal was under Spanish occupation, then it would take a long time, generations (or at least one), until it died down. "Early 20th century," unless you can find a source, is also based upon conjecture, and won't be included.
 * I made this a new section so we can talk about the dating of the story. Any clues for that? [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 05:59, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've got a couple clues:
 * The Doctor says "and then I'll tell the police." Assuming it's in Portugal, the real-world Portugese police didn't have a real presence until 1867. You wouldn't have gone to the police long before then. Only out-of-universe, though.
 * They used coins, which means it took place at least after 1179. As if we didn't know that.
 * A market in Funchal is mentioned. This could even take place today, so that doesn't help.
 * Anyone have anything to add? [[file:SmallerOnTheOutside.png|13px]] SOTO ☎ 06:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately your first two clues violate T:NO RW. I suggest we don't include a date because we don't know it. Shambala108 ☎  06:44, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's best if we leave the date unknown, unless there is some sort of in-universe factor we could use. Perhaps someone uses a VHS tape, and we can date that device's invention through Fear Her... I know that that's isn't true, but it was just an example. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 18:01, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Although granted that Smaller's points can go in the 'Behind the Scenes' section (I know that there isn't literally one on this page, but you know what I mean) OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 22:03, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I also had another point (which didn't publish properly due to edit conflicts) about how there was a bitten pencil. The pencil was only invented in 1560 in Germany (wood piece added in Italy), and it probably took a long time until it became commonplace enough in a small farmtown in Portugal for the woman to recognise what it was without going on about how rich he was or how thinking how he could possibly damage such an expensive and new contraption. Anyways, this all means that, if we were to apply the real world, this could take place anywhere from the late 19th century to even the near future. The little things and the conversational habits and other things do seem to suggest (or at least hint at) either the late 19th century or the early 20th. But I can't give you a source for that.
 * I would also like to bring up the point of the economy. The Doctor thinks that two eggs would be too much for her, suggesting the economy was bad at the time. Nowadays, two eggs are nothing in Portugal. Anyways, in the 1890s, the country declared it was bankrupt (it was doing quite well - for the most part - beforehand), and the economy just kept on going down from then. It was back on its feet, though, by the sixties and seventies. Which just further proves that it's either the late 19th or early 20th century.
 * Of course, this can't go in the article. But we can have a section in the BTS section dedicated to the time when it took place, and another for the place. That would mean that, in the article itself, we wouldn't include the time and we'd only say that it's near Machico and Funchal and really close to Pico de Facho (and not say where those places are). We can't really prove anything. --SOTO ☎ 00:24, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

PS
So, is this discussion over now? Has it been agreed that it is not Spain, not the early 20th Century, and that The Doctor does not talk to the other man "in his head? Master of Spiders ☎  07:46, February 28, 2013 (UTC)