Talk:World Enough and Time (TV story)

A better source is probably needed, but...
Benjamin Cook, the writer for Doctor Who Magazine, has confirmed on Twitter that the opening sequence of the episode was filmed two weeks before broadcast during production of the 2017 Christmas special. How that can be addressed in the article space without violating the spoiler policy ... I'll let you figure it out. Source: https://twitter.com/benjamin_cook/status/878765850433597441 23skidoo ☎  03:45, June 25, 2017 (UTC)

Floor list
I mean, seriously guys? A screen capture of that sea of redlinks listing every floor on the ship, none of which will ever have enough information to justify an article, is on the verge of going viral. 23skidoo ☎  12:29, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I'm not a big fan of it either. Perhaps just references that there are 1056 floors rather than list them all when they will only have a generic line to their name each? Snivystorm ☎  12:33, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * They justified it by only including the floor numbers that we were able to see on the lift as it was descending but I too agree that it is ridiculous. The only floors that are needed are floor 0, floor 507 and 1056 with a reference that there were 1056 floors altogether Xx-connor-xX ☎  13:01, June 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * Accordingly, I've moved this info off this page, but I think it's appropriate to preserve it -- in an unlinked fashion -- over at Colony ship (World Enough and Time). These floors are a feature of the ship without being locations for the story. 19:54: Thu 29 Jun 2017

Black hole
Shouldn't an image of the black hole in the episode be added? 24.205.83.199talk to me 08:30, July 1, 2017 (UTC)


 * If you feel it necessary, it is worth a shot, though you'll probably need a few of he story as a whole as well. Snivystorm ☎  09:00, July 1, 2017 (UTC)

Main enemy discussion
Given recent edits, I have decided to collate the editor's reasonings here so we can formally discuss this rather than go back and forth changing the infobox. As these points were collected from their respective edit summaries, if my interpretations of the editor's in questions points are incorrect, the editors named may feel free to join in and clarify/expand.

According to User:Scrooge MacDuck, he believes the Cybermen are the main enemies in this story while Razor is simply sidelined as a background force to them. User:BananaClownMan, while agreeing the Master is not the primary foe, goes further in specifying it is the surgeon who is the main enemy given he is 'in charge' of the Cybermen.

I personally disagree with both and believe it is who is this episode's main enemy for the following reasons. First, the Cybermen are not even fully created or evolved into 'proper' Cybermen until Bill's conversion at the end of the episode. Also, I don't believe the Surgeon can be aptly characterised as the primary enemy either because he barely appears in the episode. Yes, he is the one (implied) to convert Bill, but then this is done through the Master's manipulation, who earns Bill's trust and then uses it against her to get her into conversion theatre. Plus, the surgeon does not even appear in the final scene when the Master makes his big reveal and effectively 'defeats' the Doctor in this episode through what he did to Bill.

I would also like to note that discussion similarly took place at Talk:The Doctor Falls (TV story). While brief, it was concluded there that the Master was the main enemy of this story. Granted, that talk page doesn't concretely apply here, but it's a decent precedent for this discussion.

I look forward to further responses, if others wish to join in. Snivy   ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦   18:44, April 29, 2020 (UTC)
 * Personally, I saw nothing wrong with the status quo of the Mondasians as a whole/the Surgeon, the Cybermen, and the Master all appearing in the |main_enemy= field as a compromise for a case where it's really rather up-in-the-air.


 * Because, narratively speaking, Razor might be the "villain", but is the "main enemy"? He's the reason Bill in particular gets converted when she does, but the opening scene of The Doctor Falls makes it quite clear that the genesis of the Cybermen would have happened anyway — and also that they don't actually answer to him.


 * In terms of real-world plot mechanics, at no point in this episode (save very tentatively the cliffhanger) is the Master opposing, or being opposed by, anyone. Razor is a supporting character/comic relief for most of the runtime, and it is the Cybermen/proto-Cybermen who serve as the threat which the characters run away from/try to fight off. This is in stark contrast The Doctor Falls, where he is actively working against the heroes throughout, down to killing one of the main protagonists on-screen.


 * For that same reason I would argue against the Surgeon being the main enemy; he is little more than an extension of the Cybermen in terms of plot mechanics, and nor is he actually in charge of them either, he's just the man who makes them.


 * Arguably, the whole dysfunctional Mondasian society which leads to the Surgeon having the conversion job may be argued to be the enemy of Bill's story, while the (proto)-Cybermen are the enemy of the Doctor's story. But not the Surgeon himself.


 * The fact that there are two different plot strands is, I feel, another good reason to have two or more answers in the |main_enemy= field: the Doctor's enemy and Bill's enemy needn't be the same.--Scrooge MacDuck ☎  18:53, April 29, 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's an issue I have seen crop on a few pages. While I get there is wiggle room for who is the main enemy, I've set this discussion up because (end of the day) the template says 'main enemy' thereby meaning a singular force who is the primary force against the story's heroes, rather than every single bad guy we see. To go with the wiggle room means, in essence, people can make a case that anyone can be an enemy. For instance, one could say Jorj is an enemy because he was the one who shot Bill, leading to her separation from the Doctor in the first place. Still, it's a fair point that their are two plot strands given how we follow first the Doctor and then Bill's perspective. But as the episode shows, the Doctor's half is no way in danger and instead there for fun expository purposes to give us (the audience) the run down on the whole time dilation dilemma.


 * Still, given the nature of the infobox, we are going to have to decide on a main enemy one way or another. Hopefully others (particularly those who have edited along similar lines to you and I) join in the discussion to voice their views.


 * Also, I'd like to add, if my memory serves right, the Master did control the Cybermen in The Doctor Falls (hence controlled them in this episode) but lost that control because the Doctor reworked the network when knocked down by Missy. As shown, Bill herself even only moves to help to Doctor once the changes are 'updated' in the Cybermen's network. Snivy   ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦   19:11, April 29, 2020 (UTC)