Talk:Osgood/Appearances

Osgood LOA pages
I think that it is very confusing having all Petronella Osgood, Zygon Osgood and the Bonnie Osgood, linking to the same LOA page. After comments made in Narcissus it is clear that the version killed by Missy in Death in Heaven was the Zygon version, and therefore we can track all of that incarnations' individual appearances. Then, we can track all of Petronella / Bonnie's appearances - bar three stories. Surely it would make more sense to have separate LOA pages, and listing those three appearances as ambiguous, rather than having Bonnie's LOA page link to 30+ stories that she's confirmed to have nothing to do with?

Petronella Osgood's appearances are;


 * All 30 appearances in the UNIT: The New Series audios as well as the special The Sacrifice of Jo Grant, as these all predate The Day of the Doctor and therefore her first impersonation by Zygon Osgood.
 * The three television appearances The Day of the Doctor, The Zygon Invasion / The Zygon Inversion as Zygon Osgood was the one killed by Missy.
 * Clara Oswald and the School of Death, Narcissus, Field Trip and The Zygon Isolation as both Petronella and the Bonnie Osgood are present.

Zygon Osgood's appearances are;


 * The Day of the Doctor, and Death in Heaven, The Zygon Invasion and The Zygon Inversion.

Bonnie Osgood's appearances are;


 * The Zygon Invasion / The Zygon Inversion.
 * Clara Oswald and the School of Death, Narcissus, Field Trip and The Zygon Isolation as both Petronella and the Bonnie Osgood are present.

Only three current stories have an unknown Osgood; Robo Rampage, Yes, Missy and The Lost Dimension and these are either Petronella or Bonnie. Xx-connor-xX ☎  19:19, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with the above, although I will add that two Osgoods appear in Yes, Missy which is set in 2016 so that’s also Petronella and Bonnie. It’s just Robo Rampage and The Lost Dimension where we don’t know which Osgood it is beyond being either Petronella or Bonnie. SarahJaneFan ☎  19:26, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, I have never read that story but the page for it only has one Osgood listed. That's even better as there's even less stories with an ambiguous Osgood. Although, I just reaised that I forgot to mention her two appearances in video games. The Horror of Flat Holm is confirmed to be Petronella, as it takes place in 2010 before DotD. However, The Dalek Invasion of Time seems to once again be ambiguous as to whether it is Petronella or Bonnie. Still, I think it is far better to have Petronella / Bonnie have three ambiguous stories on their own LOA pages than having Zygon Osgood / Bonnie having over 30 stories linked to them that they're confirmed never to have appeared in. Xx-connor-xX ☎  19:29, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe the current setup was decided upon in a lengthy forum thread, so it certainly can't be changed on a talk page. Also, don't forget that it's perfectly possible that the real Petronella died in Death in Heaven and that the single surviving Osgood later joined by Bonnie was herself the Zygon. So we genuinely don't know which Osgood is who in any of their appearances. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  19:31, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

No, the implication made by Narcissus is very clear that one is human and the other is Zygon. Obviously if we got an actual source saying it was the human that died, it’d be a different matter but Narcissus was quite clear in its implication. I can say for a fact, that we can determine based on the evidence we currently have, which Osgood is which except the few examples mentioned. And this is kind of the point of a talk page, to talk about it. Like no one has attempt to actually change anything yet, an idea has been raised. SarahJaneFan ☎  19:43, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * You're completely right, Narcissus' confirmation is extremely solid. It is also further backed up by today's webcast The Zygon Isolation, the Osgood in the top box comments about missing the sun on her "blobby suckers" and the Osgood in the bottom box mentions that she can't relate. Xx-connor-xX ☎  19:50, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * For those who may not have listened, in Narcissus the Bonnie Osgood comments that the other Osgood would have lesser chance of survival if sent to the spaceship, and also labels herself as replaceable. This is complete confirmation that the other Osgood is human and the Zygon Osgood died. When was the thread discussing Osgood's LOA pages created? Xx-connor-xX ☎  19:59, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but since the Osgoods outright say in The Zygon Inversion that they intend never to reveal what species either of them is, I don't think any Osgood saying anything can be taken at face value. Bonnie saying those things in Narcissus is perhaps suggestive, but it's hardly "complete confirmation". At best it's a "one account, another account" deal. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  21:41, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * First of all, you haven't listened to the story in question (and didn't even read the thread here properly before commenting) so how can you attempt to form an opinion on something you're clueless about?


 * The Doctor also once said that they would have left Daughter of Mine trapped forever, but later went back to save her. People change their minds. It was outright implied several times that the surviving Osgood was the human, we cannot speculate that they wouldn't break their rules about revealing their species - the life of the human Osgood was potentially in danger if Bonnie didn't speak up. Xx-connor-xX ☎  21:47, May 10, 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll thank you not to presume what threads I have or haven't read, and which audio stories I have or have not listened to. (Not that there's any rule on the Wiki about having to have experienced a story before discussing it, though there is a rule about not doing inclusion debates on stories you haven't read/watched/heard to.)


 * I did read the old Osgood thread, a while ago. I just don't have every link to every thread I ever read on hand at all times, because as a matter of fact I have a read through a very substantial percentage of Board:The Matrix Archives and there's only so much a man can remember. Look the thread up yourself if you want.


 * And I'll note that "outright implied" is a curious oxymoron indeed. If the implication in The Zygon Inversion that the non-Bonnie Osgood may well be the previous Zygon isn't kosher, then neither is implication in other stories that she was the human Petronella. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  22:08, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

We called it an implication in good faith, no one in that story is shouting from the rooftops “this one is a human and this one is a Zygon” but the script is very clear that one is a Zygon and the other is the human that’s appeared in all the other UNIT audio boxsets. The two Osgoods dont reveal to anyone but each other which is which so it doesn’t at all violate their claims in Series 9. As it stands, the only account we have to implicate the identity of the surviving Osgood is Narcissus so until it’s otherwise stated we should treat the human as the survivor. Obviously it’s something that would have to be discussed further in a thread before someone says “according to T:whatever you can’t say that” but my point is, things just don’t make sense as they currently stand and when we have sources that actually make sense of this stuff we should use them. SarahJaneFan ☎  22:41, May 10, 2020 (UTC)

I relistened to Narcissus today and picked up a few quotes. Note that in one of them the Osgood that isn’t explicitly a Zygon refers to herself as human and in another quote, the explicitly Zygon Osgood calls the other Osgood irreplaceable while she believes that she could be replaced.

"ZYGOSGOOD: Theres something about this Stargazer, something captivating. Reminds me of someone I used to know during my reproductive days.

OSGOOD: He’s human.

ZYGOSGOOD: You never know these days."

"ZYGOSGOOD: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as my parent used to say."

"OSGOOD: You took a huge blast of energy to the heart. It would’ve killed a human, but luckily your constitution is much stronger than ours."

"ZYGOSGOOD: You can’t go

OSGOOD: I’ll be fine

ZYGOSGOOD: We’ve already lost one Osgood

OSGOOD: I can handle myself

ZYGOSGOOD: I’m not sending you anywhere

OSGOOD: It’s Josh up there. I need to help if I can.

ZYGOSGOOD: He’ll never know the difference.

OSGOOD: I’ll know. Besides I’m not going to be in any danger. This creature, it only feeds on the beautiful. It’s not gonna care about me.

KATE: Osgood, if she wants to go let her go.

ZYGOSGOOD: But I’m more expendable than she is. I can be replaced, she’s irreplaceable. It’s illogical to send her when you could send me."

SarahJaneFan ☎  18:26, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for this work! Hm… the latter and most explicit quote is very dubious under the "the Osgoods are supremely unreliable sources about this because they're actively out to confuse people about who's who" principle, because the one you label as "Zygosgood" is talking to Kate here.


 * But I'd forgotten the "ours" part of the quote about the "huge blast of energy to the heart". Yeah, unless there are witnesses to this scene whom they could be trying to fool, I'm afraid that is pretty definitive. I'd still think a single list for both the "original" Osgood, and for unidentified Zygon-Osgoods, is a good idea, because it's emphasized in The Zygon Inversion that "they're both Osgood" — it's not a charade: there's a genuine identity-melding going on, and the prose The Day of the Doctor elaborates on the telepathic aspect of the link. But a list of appearances for Bonnie seems feasible.--Scrooge MacDuck ☎  18:40, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah there’s no one else there during the “ours” exchange or at least there’s no reference to anyone being there and no reason there should be as it’s a private exchange between the two Osgoods.

I would agree with your point about the mind-melding if it wasn’t for the fact that it only really goes for the first Zygon Osgood, who we now know has only appeared in the tv episodes thus far as it’s the human that survived. So basically the human appears in every Osgood story except Death in Heaven, and Bonnie too in every story after The Zygon Inversion. To me, Bonnie comes across as being much more her own person than the original double did who was completely indistinguishable from the Human Osgood. Bonnie in particular does lean into her Zygon roots as well.

I don’t think it’s the end of the world if the page remains as it currently is, but as it is I feel the situation is perhaps treated with a bit more ambiguity and confusion than there actually is surrounding the issue. I would probably have a list for the human, which would be everything except Death in Heaven, then a page for Bonnie which would be everything chronologically after Invasion/Inversion and then I’d just put the TV stories alone in the info box of the original Zygon Osgood. SarahJaneFan ☎  19:24, May 11, 2020 (UTC)

I haven’t read the story but the page for Robo Rampage states that the Osgood involved in that story is from Operation Double. There were only two Osgoods as part of that operation - Petronella Osgood and Zygon Osgood. As this story took place in 2016 (and it was heavily hinted that the human Osgood survived in later stories) then this is another confirmed appearance for the human Osgood.

That means that the only ambiguous appearances are; The Lost Dimension and The Dalek Invasion of Time.

Should I go ahead and create a thread to discuss these changes? Xx-connor-xX ☎  11:31, August 5, 2020 (UTC)