Talk:Totem (short story)

Which Doctor?
Someone brought this up on another wiki....

basically, there is nothing in this short story to indicate that The Doctor in question is The Eighth Doctor. A man, calling himself "John Smith" arrives in Spain. He works for the widow for approximately 9 months. He clearly has a psychological/emotional burden. He argues with another man(who is unidentified). He fins the body of the woman's husband. It is revealed in the narrative that he is....The Doctor(no incarnation given or hinted at). He leaves. That's it. There is nothing mentioning long hair or a "Wild Bill" outfit. It is never mentioned what is troubling him, other than he has "blood on his hands". For all we know it could be The Third Doctor after "The Sea Devils". Or The Fifth Doctor after "Earthshock". Or The Sixth Doctor after "Attack Of The Cybermen". Or.... Master of Spiders ☎  16:13, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe that for Doctors where the incarnation isn't specified, or it's an ambiguous "future" Doctor, we call the page "The Doctor", followed by a dab term. If there's really nothing positively identifying the Doctor as Paul McGann and the man he's arguing with as Sylvester McCoy, then I assume it's not too much a stretch to make it The Doctor (Totem). -- Tybort (talk page) 16:24, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Master of Spiders, I suggest you reread the story. It says his hair is "long, brown, and wavy" and he wears a green velvet coat. He also suffers from memory problems. The hair color rules out the three Doctors you've mentioned. Shambala108 ☎  18:41, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I figured that there was some sort of description in there... Case closed I guess... OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 18:51, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

No it isn't. I actually went though the story, cut-and-pasting all references to The Doctor, showing several that disqualified Eight from being The Doctor in question. But, this site wouldn't allow the edit. I'll try again later. Also, "long brown wavy hair"(it mentions "curly hair" at one point) sounds like The Fourth Doctor. "Green velvet coat" sounds like The Third Doctor. Like I said, I'll try again later, and hopefully it will allow the edit... But the overall point was this sounds like it could be one of several Doctors. Sort of like The Infinity Doctors where it's deliberately never made clear which incarnation it is. Master of Spiders ☎  08:13, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I must ask that you stop this. The story names him as a curly haired fellow with a velvet suit, that's all we really need to qualify it as the Eighth Doctor. If there are things that disqualify him from being the Doctor, well that's more of a production error than a disqualifier for 8. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 12:22, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

That is unnecessarily rude. Here are the things I actually added yesterday(but disappeared?)

"Quiet, strange, but undoubtedly good"-(sounds like Four)

"a tall handsome man" -(that's not Paul Mcgann. I won't comment on how handsome or not he is :-), but he's only 5ft7) "who would have seemed young and in the prime of his life" (okay, but that could also be others. 'Young' is also subjective in that Senora Panstedas is older, and anyone other than One or Three would be 'young' and 'in the prime of life' to her)

"grey-blue, empty eyes" (Mcgann's eyes are blue, not 'grey-blue'. You know who does have grey-blue eyes? Tom Baker)

"hair was long, brown and wavy" (sounds far more like Four)

"his skin was pale" (not quite Mcgann, is it?)

"His accent was unfamiliar, though each word was carefully pronounced" (that's Four again)

"he'd been wearing a coat of green velvet" (that's Three)

"a simple white shirt" (so, NOT some frilly Wild Bill Hicock shirt". You know who did wear simple white shirts? Four)

"grey trousers that looked to be of good quality" (anyone other than Two, Five or Six then)

"and brown leather shoes" (no comment)

"speaking very fast"(sounds more like Nine, though he didn't exist then)

"straggling curl of hair" (Four again)

His only identifications are when he says "I am the Doctor" and then later "I am The Doctor. No other"

If that is enough for you to know that it is The Eighth Doctor, I would appreciate your describing of how you came to that conclusion. You can not just pick-and-choose one very vague description, and discard several that point to something you do not agree with. Master of Spiders ☎  14:15, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Would it really be anything significant if this is recategorized under ? Master of Spiders ☎  14:25, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes it would. This incarnation is obviously 8. Obviously. Seperate these descriptions are ambiguous, but together they are 8. And really? Arguing over shades of blue.
 * Discussion over. 8th Doctor. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 14:28, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

First, "shades of blue" is not something petty. As an example, both oxford and Cambridge use shades of blue, and people are instantly recognisable by their support for one or the other by which "shade of blue" is used. But, "grey-blue" is NOT even a shade of blue. In fact, "blue" is one specific colour. There are various different colours that people mistakenly refer to as blue. Paul Mcgann's eyes are definitely not grey-blue, either way though.

Second, taken together it is not Eight. That was my actual point in the first place! A couple of things could be Eight, but most of them clearly can't. The point was that someone took the minority where there was some ambiguity, and said "That's Eight!" However, everything else disqualifies Eight.

Last, I asked you to explain why you believe it is Eight with logical thought, and your 'proof' amounts to you acting like my pointing out a description of The Doctor's eyes disqualifies Eight is somehow petty, and totally avoiding the question. You still have not provided anything. Master of Spiders ☎  14:38, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


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 * Sigh. This is eight. Eight had long curly hair, blue eyes, memory proplems, a velvet suit, grey trousers, leather shoes, a unique accent and basically all of those things described. Your argument that this isn't 8 is that 8 isn't pretty. And lemme tell you, you are entirely wrong. I use McGann as my Youtube account icon and I'm always getting comments like "Is that you're face? You're cute!". There is no proof that this isn't 8; any qualities that describe him wrong are continuity errors, not proof that it isn't him. OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 15:09, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Eight had blue eyes, but the Doctor described in Totem had "grey-blue eyes". Eight didn't have a unique accent. He has a standard(for the time) BBC accent. He isn't tall. He doesn't speak very fast. he never wore a plain white short. You also went off an an unnecessary tangent about Mcgann's looks. I specifically stated above that i wouldn't comment on Mcgann's looks yet you know seem to think that my commenting on Mcgann's looks is the sum of my argument? Judging by this discussion, you don't seem tor ead things properly before coming to conclusions...

Last "any qualities that describe him wrong are continuity errors, not proof that it isn't him". Sorry, but that is ridiculous. if the description by the author(who also edited the More Short Trips under his real name) differs significantly from Eight to the point where it can not possibly be Eight then you can't just say "Oh, it is Eight. The mountain of stuff that means it can't possibly be Eight is just continuity errors!" Master of Spiders ☎  15:24, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Did anyone actually read the story?
According to the article The Doctor argues with his previous self in his mind, but shouts in real life. First, there is NO indication is The Doctor's previous self, nor a Doctor at all. However, the bit about "in his mind" is totally contradicted by

"She could see nothing but she could hear the voices - first John's plaintive tones and then a softer voice, low, dry, tinged with another accent she didn't recognise"

...

"His short gasps of exertion were steamrolled over by the commanding voice of the other man".

...

"Then the other man spoke again"

...

"The other man's voice scared her"

So, The Doctor is talking to himself "in his mind" yet the Senora is able to hear the other man's voice. At one stage "John" and the other man are speaking at the same time, and the Senora hears both voices. That's quite an impressive feat for talking to yourself in your mind! Master of Spiders ☎  15:32, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lastly, it's Wikipedia(yes, yes, I know...) but their description f this story says(and has done so far a long long time)

Seeking redemption for a number of crimes, the Doctor begins working on a Mexican farm owned by Senora Panstedas, a widower, and the pair become great friends, until the Doctor discovers Senora has committed a much darker crime.

The Mexico location contrasts the Spain listed here. The joke is that even I was drawn in by the idea of Spain! Two place names are listed...Machico and Funchal. A quick Google search tells us they are both in....Portugal. Not Spain, not Mexico. Portugal. The Wikipedia article also implies that the Senora was somehow involved in her husband's death. However the near-to-last words are Senora Panstedas died a few years later, mever learning the truth about he husband's death.

There is also NO mention of ANY date in the story itself.Master of Spiders ☎  15:37, February 11, 2013 (UTC)