User talk:WJDTwGL

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Thanks for becoming a member of the TARDIS crew! If you have any questions, see the Help pages, add a question to one of the Forums or ask on my talk page. Doug86 ☎  18:38, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

Timelines
Hello. I reverted your edit to the Master pages because Prisoners of Time and Destiny of the Doctors feature an older Tremas Master without the Cheetah virus, which totally contradicts Prime Time and the Eight Doctors as the Cheetah virus infested Master in those stories lives from Survival right through the ingesting the Deathworm Morphant seen in The Movie. Because of this a fourth contradictory timeline Post-Survival exists for the Master.

In the case of the Monk, I reverted your edits because the NA books for the Monk are set directly after he escapes being trapped after The Dalek's Master Plan, and that there was also an inaccuracy in the edit stating that the Monk from The Black Hole wanted revenge for Tamsin's death when it should have been under The Secret History. I also think that attributing an actor name to each Monk doesn't exactly work since the NA Monk never had an actor portraying him, despite what the author may have intended him to look like.

I hope that has clarified things for you, and that you enjoy contributing to the wiki in the future. Thanks. --Revan\Talk 18:50, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

I admit that I haven't yet read No Future, and what I had gathered from reading about the novel that it was set post-ice planet. In that case make the changes, just make sure to explain why you've placed the No Future Monk there in relation to the others. Thanks! --Revan\Talk 19:03, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

In Dust Breeding the Warp Core has stripped away the Trakenite DNA from the Master, so it has to be the Tremas Master he precedes. For both the Doctor and the Master they state their last meeting was on the Cheetah Planet, so it's definately another contradiction. It is weird that both Stop the Pigeon and Dust Breeding were written by the same author, but out of universe there was clearly many efforts to differentiate Big Finish from the BBC Books. You can see all of that more clearly with the Eighth Doctor stuff - it's like a minefield. --Revan\Talk 20:03, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

Placement: BF and Virgin
Hi. I'm sorry if I have come across as intolerant or ignorant, but this issue comes down to one of the oldest issues in the book: "canon" and continuity. The Virgin books are indeed a direct continuation of the cancelled TV series, which makes "placement" extremely difficult: both BBC Books and Big have attempted to make direct continuations of the show, ie. a de facto "Series 28", immediately disrupting the flow of character and universe continuity. However, this wiki does not attempt to come up with definitive placement, answers to production errors or solutions to discontinuity. The Big Finish stories were produced as ongoing adventures set post-Survival, and have developed Ace in a very different way, yes, but they are still intended to be set prior to the NAs. If we decide to come up with speculative answers to problems with continuity (ie. "Ace lacks memory of age in BF, knows it in NAs, therefore loss of memory post NAs sets BF stories after NAs"), then we not only work against what is intrinsically the purpose of the wiki (to display information, rather than formulate new ideas) but we also open up a whole can of worms. I could equally say that the "mind wipe" scene at the beginning of Timewyrm: Genesys is the reason why Ace thinks she remembers her age: her mind has reverted to a point when she did. Lungbarrow leaves the Doctor with potential for a sneaky trip or two before heading off to Skaro, so therefore all of the DWM comic stories with 7 solo take place there. Et cetera. I sympathise with you when you when you suggest that certain placements don't make any sense, but this is Who 101. Even in the TV series, stories constantly contradict each other, sometimes deliberately and other times by accident. However, the clear authorial intent is what we follow on this wiki. BF want to set all of the Ace/Hex audios before the NAs, so that's how we arrange them. Certain alterations can be made, such as setting the Timewyrm tetralogy apart from the rest, thus reconciling a few issues, but by and large, it is necessary to follow what is intended rather than what is "right". I'm rather confused that nobody has told Ms Aldred that, regardless of how she wishes to play Ace in Nightshade and Love and War, the character is supposed to be older than even the Dead to the World Ace in Theatre of War and All-Consuming Fire. This is just yet another unfortunate choice which makes characterisation less consistent according to continuity. So, to recap: we work by narrative and intent. When Signs and Wonders states that "Dorothée" is a potential future for Ace, it makes clear that, according to the producers and authors, the NA series takes place after that story. When Deceit places the Cat's Cradle trilogy, Nightshade and Love and War consecutively, we are forced to make adjustments to where Memorial and Metamorphosis go. But when there are an equal amount of errors either way, we go with what is intended, and base our choices primarily on authorial decisions, not actors' choices.

By the way, you may want to note that two of the issues you raised are not strictly problems. Love and War is very much a BF story as well as a NA, and the "problem" you detail is something BF have "solved". Equally, The Prisoner's Dilemma was unusual in it's placement, but stories such as The Lights of Skaro and Intervention Earth have since provided explanations for both the reasons she is again travelling with the Doctor and the extent of memory loss she suffers.

I'm sorry we've gotten into a debate so early on in your wiksperience (yeah, just made that one up), but I hope you get where both I and we as a community are coming from. Best wishes on your further ventures on Tardis, and feel free to contact me again if you need anything. If you still have big problems with the placements of various stories, you might want to bring it up with the community as a whole on a particular article talk page, or contact an admin for specific policy rulings. Happy editing. RogerAckroydLives ☎  16:01, December 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * I see where you're coming from, I really do, but your own statement makes clear why we do what we are currently doing. Implication is never the same thing as statement. BF make it clear in a number of stories that the NAs take place after their ongoing arc(s). Much of the characterisation and storytelling may well imply that Ace's timeline works the way you detail it, but statement trumps implication. If an upcoming story were to have a post-Hex Ace remembering Benny, then this debate would be much more difficult to resolve, but until then, we must extrapolate from the facts. Therefore, we stick one mind wipe before another, with absolutely no way of being "sure" where either is set. But, while the Timewipe (NA) is one which affects both the Doctor (to a lesser extent) and Ace, the Crimewipe (BF) is only an Ace thing. Therefore, if we swap them around, we simply get even bigger problems trying to reason what the Doctor does or doesn't recall, given he hasn't been wiped. If there is a point where things can be slotted in with more regard to the intents of all creative contributors, we will embrace it with open arms. But, while our current (but most definitely not definitive) timeline is wrong, you haven't proposed a sequence which isn't wrong-er. RogerAckroydLives ☎  16:29, December 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you want to start a major debate about placement, which is one of the least important parts of this wiki (every fan can have and most do have an individual "order" or set of stories they feel are "canon", etc.), then I would advise you to go to a talk page or start a forum thread. It isn't really relevant what "continuity problems" I may or may not have with your ideal sequence, but given how the in-universe articles on this wiki are written, it would be far more problematic to assume that your wording of a particular entry would be understood by everyone "because of the stories", when the point of a wiki is to be a source in and of itself. If you want to propose a way we can improve the Seventh Doctor and Ace articles, then, without actual physical evidence, you need to appeal to the community in order to make a democratic decision. It's not unambiguous where Time's Crucible might be set with regard to every other Doctor Who story ever written under license from the BBC, but as a wiki we have to take a stance. And without a democratic decision, we can't simply alter that stance to our own. RogerAckroydLives ☎  16:49, December 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * It seems my original reply was lost, but its essence was the following: allowing for a little ambiguity should be fine, but the article must still be written completely objectively, not implying that its placement is either here or there. I have rewritten it accordingly: it isn't great, but I accept that it better complies with a potential production p.o.v. Feel free to advise me if you think it still needs work. RogerAckroydLives ☎  07:49, December 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * It's accurate, but by the time you're getting into that much detail on, it's something that belongs on a discontinuity page. Do you have a particular problem with how it's currently worded? I would have thought it had a great enough level of ambiguity, but if you don't think so, I'm happy to listen to further propositions. RogerAckroydLives  ☎  08:59, December 30, 2015 (UTC)