Talk:The Valeyard

=2017=

Backstory
The backstory presented from Trial of the Valeyard is blatantly stated to be almost entirely false. It should almost certainly not be placed anywhere near the section describing his origins. OS25 (Talk) 00:31, June 22, 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Many premices in Trial of the Valeyard ignore the TV episodes Five Doctors (where the Master was offered more regenerations), the Ultimate Foe itself (where the Valeyard is offered the Doctor's remaining regenerations), and The Brain of Morbius (where the Doctors explains why the Time Lords have a limited number of regenerations: "Death is the price we pay for progress, you know."


 * Here is the actual dialogue provided from a transcript of the show:


 * DOCTOR: Oh, I wouldn't think they're beyond a decent spectrograph, Maren. One could probably synthesise that stuff by the gallon, though the consequences would be appalling.
 * OHICA: What do you mean?
 * DOCTOR: What? Everyone trying to live forever? No. Death is the price we pay for progress, you know.
 * MAREN: You speak in riddles, Doctor. The Time Lords were glad enough of the Elixir.
 * DOCTOR: Only in rare cases. When, for instance, there's some difficulty in regenerating a body. We don't take it regularly like you, otherwise we'd fall into the same trap.
 * MAREN: And what trap are we in?
 * DOCTOR: Immortality. You must have been old when the Elixir was discovered. How many centuries have passed while you have remained unchanged. How long since anything here changed?
 * MAREN: Nothing here ever changes.
 * DOCTOR: Exactly my point. No progress. Please, stand back.


 * These three episodes make the whole plot of Trial of the Valeyard nonsensical in the extreme.--BruceGrubb ☎  15:34, July 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * Why should a story that predates The Trial of a Time Lord dictate how Trial of the Valeyard be perceived. After all, with each new content into the Whoniverse, something gets retconed in one way or the other.

In any even, after all is said and done in Trial of the Valeyard, both the Doctor and Darkel agree that the Valeyard's story could have some truth to it. Indeed, the only confirmation to his origins in The Brink of Death is boiled down to "the Time Lords did it", leaving only his statement about the Thirteenth Doctor (or Eleventh Doctor) creating in doubt, but not eliminating the Shadow Houses from his origin.BananaClownMan ☎  13:59, July 5, 2017 (UTC)

=2020=

12th and final

 * "between his twelfth and final incarnations"

Do we have some idea of which these could refer to?

Final perhaps referring to The Doctor (Alien Bodies) who came some time after Curator and Merlin...

I'm guessing TWELFTH isn't necessarily meant to refer to Capaldi's Twelfth Doctor for example. These numbers we use just basically refer to numbering on the basis of "who has starred in a BBC TV show" rather than ALL incarnations...

For example First Doctor not being true first, we could estimate what number (minimum) he would be on the basis of prior inferences:


 * 1. The Other
 * 2-9 The Doctor (The Brain of Morbius)

With (at least) ten come before, I think this means the First Doctor is at LEAST the Eleventh, so "Twelfth" might actually refer to Second Doctor ? Meaning only the first of the 'numbered doctors' is possible excluded from the Valeyard amalgamation? Tycio ☎  23:13, November 5, 2020 (UTC)