Forum:T:NAVBOX

Opening Post
Alright, so over the past few years we've run into a few problems with navbox policies, or, really, the lack thereof. It's nothing particularly major, but I'd rather that we figure something out before massive problems are created, rather than after. I tried to look into other wikis to see if they had policies we could base our rules off of - my understanding is that much of our framework is derived from Memory Alpha's, iirc. All of the big wikis didn't seem to have any concrete policies, nor did the Mario wiki, Zelda, bulbapedia or tfwiki. (I'm just going to speculate here, but I think the reason other large wikis don't have the issue is the more simplified rights situations, combined with the relatively simple levels of fictionality each of them have to deal with in comparison to us.)

Wikipedia kinda does? They're essays, not official policies. I don't know if they're taken particularly seriously in the wiki editing sphere, but this is what I could find.
 * 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Navigation_template
 * 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:A_navbox_on_every_page
 * 3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Not_everything_needs_a_navbox
 * 4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_template_creep

Now, obviously T:EVIL TWIN, even allowing for the fact that these aren't official policies, but this at least gives us a place to start. Before we do that, what precisely is the problem?

Some of the relevant history can be found at Talk:Scarlett Johansson and Template talk:Faction Paradox members, but the basic summary is that there has been disagreement as to whether an in universe connection is needed to place entities in the relevant navbox, such as Scarlett Johansson in the Marvel Comics navbox, given that the only story in which she's mentioned doesn't indicate her connection to Marvel. (This is true with Captain Marvel as well, lest you think it only applies to cast/crew.)

A related issue is that given that in DWU spinoffs, or even mainline BBC stories there's often thinly veiled versions of other characters. Do we put Astrolabus in ? If we create a navbox for The Master do we include Stream (The Hollows of Time) or The Man with the rosette? has a wild amount of speculation.

We don't have any clear precedent for this. And, let's be frank, I think there's good reason to argue either position.

So let's read through the essays and see if we can come to any sort of ground rules here.


 * 1) Choice selections from Essay 1.
 * 2) Ask yourself, does this help the reader in reading up on related topics? Take any two articles in the template. Would a reader really want to go from A to B?
 * 3) They should be kept small in size as a large template has limited navigation value. For navigating among many articles, consider [splitting] them into multiple, smaller templates on each sub-topic.
 * 4) If the articles are not established as related by reliable sources in the actual articles, then it is probably not a good idea to interlink them.
 * 5) Essay 2.
 * 6) A navbox serves the function of a see also section, but does so more effectively by implying a one-for-one relationship with the other members of the set. More articles can be listed in a navbox. While a "see also" section cannot be practical in listing more than a handful of the most relevant articles, a navbox can list dozens of related articles that can be subdivided into their own sections.
 * 7) The typical navbox has and should have around 10–100 articles listed, though there is no blanket guideline on this number, and there are plenty of exceptions either above or below this range.
 * 8) [Don't create navboxes like] a listing of articles for which there is no reasonable theoretical limit to the numbers of articles that can be included. Some examples are a list of people who are notable for the same reason but otherwise have no connections.
 * 9) Essay 3
 * 10) A good, but not set-in-stone rule to follow is the "rule of five": are there presently at least five articles (not counting the primary article) on which your navbox will be used?
 * 11) One indicator of usefulness is if an editor would otherwise be inclined to link many of these articles in the "See also" sections of the articles.
 * 12) Finally, keep overlap in mind. [If a potential navbox is a proper subset of another, just don't create it.]

Essay 4 is mainly just trying to explain how to reduce overcluttered navboxes, and we might need to discuss that, but, honestly, I don't think we do at this point. (If you want to, go off.)

I'm not sure that 1.3 is something we should adopt, but it's referenced as directly related to our discussion here. I think much of the rest is common sense, and is a set of standards we've largely informally adopted. Let's discuss the specific ways we could summarize these and formalize a policy for this wiki.

A: Treat navboxes as a "see also" (the specific context in which we interpret this is to be discussed in this thread). B: Require six other related articles (five + the article in question) in order to create a navbox. (Up for discussion as to the exact number, as we don't really use "see also" sections.) C: Make sure that there's some reasonable connection between the things in the navbox. It becomes a candidate for deletion if people think the criteria is too broad. D: Try to keep the number of entries in a single navbox below 100, splitting into smaller navboxes if it gets above that. E: Either don't create templates that are subsumed by others, or do what does, where the larger template will effectively link to the smaller template. (Obviously this can use work as I'm not sure this is optimal.) F: Maybe put a cap on the number of navboxes on a page if y'all want to do that.

I think the clear places where there's room for discussion and improvement are A, B, and E. B and E are self explanatory, but A gets to the heart of the disagreements that have previously existed. Do we interpret "see also" based on the context of an out of universe observer coming across the page, or someone who is interacting with page as it describes the in universe character? If the former, it seems we need them to be a relatively well informed observer in order for them to be aware of all the various navbox that could apply. EG: Marvel Comics on the Fourth Doctor's page. Alternatively, we could think of how a well observer would react to finding the linked pages on the navbox, and think of the navboxes as related bundles of concepts first and foremost. (As an example of the distinction, it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that Jim Sheldrake is an Alan Moore expy when you read stories about him. However, nobody looking at a "DC comics" navbox would understand this, whereas the Fourth Doctor's connection to Marvel Comics is non obvious both from a cursory glance through his page (though a very detailed one will show this) as well as being on, say, Iron Man.)

If it's instead about in-universe connections between these things, is this specifically using our standards for writing articles? Or are we allowing "speculation", such as conflating Astrolabus/Auteur, etc. What's the standard here?

I'm not sure. Currently we seem to be applying an "in universe with speculation" standard, which, hey, we might want to continue. But at the very least it's best to make sure that we've written this up somewhere that new users aren't confused when they start trying to write navboxes. And I think there's a real possibility that we might decide that there's a better path forward.

Finally, and by no means least importantly, do we apply these rules to navigational sidebars as well? Do we modify them in any way? Najawin ☎  01:58, 25 February 2023 (UTC)