User:OttselSpy25/LEGO Dimensions OP

Hello! If you're reading this, you just stumbled upon this OP. I would first of all like you to know that this is not immediate. It's my personal opinion that we should save LEGO Dimensions until 2024, as we've simply got too much going on this year. Also, someone else is also drafting a LEGO Dimensions OP, and there's no certainty that mine will be used over theirs. But I know how I want to structure a LD OP, so I want to start writing down notes.

Part 1: The Basics
LEGO Dimensions released on September the 27th, 2015 in North America and the 29th of September 2015 in Europe. The game was the latest iteration of the "toys-to-life" video game genre, started primarily by Skylanders. There's a great Scott the Woz video about this if you want more information.

Anyways, so LEGO Dimensions basically operated off this idea that if LEGO took some of the most beloved franchises in the world and created a game about a group of inter-dimensional travelers falling into these franchises, they could then sell even more game content by releasing individual level packs for said franchises. Each purchase would come with a set of LEGO minifigures, alongside identifying plates. The user could then place any combination of figures on the toy pad. This would make it seem that these different characters had been "summoned" to assist in the game play, but this would be disregarded by the greater story and cutscenes.

The main bulk of the game features Wyldstyle, Batman and Gandalf. Wyldstyle was from 2014's. Meanwhile, the incarnation of Batman featured in the game actually debuted in 2008's. These two sources had entirely different lore about how the LEGO elements of their respective worlds operated, and arguably the game illustrated a multiverse of stories with their own separate multiverses.

Wyldstyle, Batman and Gandalf fall through the many universes set out before them, eventually ending up in the Doctor Who universe. There, the Doctor saves them from the vortex and then a group of Daleks before setting them on their way. At the end of the game, the group recruit several characters they met across their adventures to help them defeat the final boss. The Twelfth Doctor is crucial to their plan.

That is the full plot of the main game as it pertains to the Doctor Who content.

After this we have the Doctor Who DLC pack. Here, crucially, you play as the Doctor. The main hub-world of the game features many mini-levels you can complete featuring characters like Jack Harkness and River Song.

But the main level in this section is The Dalek Extermination of Earth. Here, the Doctor discovers that Davros has taken over the Earth and has converted all of its people into Imperial Daleks. The Doctor has to go back in time and save humanity, then defeat Davros

In theory, that's the basics of the game's story. However, there's then the third aspect: the LEGO figure packs and the gameplay mechanics which come with them.

Because of the play feature of the LEGO toy pad, it was actually possible to play all of the game with DWU characters through character packs. The total packs released included the TARDIS, the Twelfth Doctor, K9, a Cyberman, and a Dalek. Again, this would not effect the plot or in-game narrative. However, it would allow players to (controversially?) discover easter egg moments which had their own mini-narratives.

The Doctor figure could also turn into the first eleven Doctors before Capaldi, and entering the TARDIS as each Doctor reveals a fully recreated TARDIS interior based on each Doctor's era. Again, this does not effect the in-game plot.

Hopefully this clears things up, as I've seen a lot of confusion, as I've seen a lot of people on here just not understanding how the game works.

Next, let's move on to trying to find some policy here.

Part 2: Coverage
So the first thing I'm hoping we can all agree on about LEGO Dimensions is that, when it comes to Tardis:Valid sources, the game easily passes our first three rules. It is a work of fiction, the Doctor Who elements are commercially licensed, and it has been officially released.

Now, whether this makes everyone happy or not, passing these three parts of T:VS means that LEGO Dimensions is automatically viable for coverage on Tardis wiki.

Now, please take note that coverage and validity are not the same thing. To run through some examples: The Stranger by BBV has no site coverage, Blue Peter special 2005 has coverage but isn't valid, TV: Twice Upon a Time has coverage and is valid.

My general point here is that you've come to this post to say "LEGO Dimensions is/isn't valid", I'm afraid it's not that simple. Even if we decide this game isn't valid... We still have to cover it. Which means, no matter the consensus, no matter if the info ends up on Twelfth Doctor or Twelfth Doctor/Non-valid sources, we have to sort through the weeds and figure out how to cover LEGO Dimensions and more specifically how much of the title to cover.

So I'm going move any debates about rule 4 or validity to much further down in the post. I'm also going to be splitting the discussions into two parts to make things easier for everyone.

In this specific part I am instead going to be discussing what I call the phases of coverage, starting with no coverage and ending with all coverage. The understanding is that both ends are extreme to a point of caution, so somewhere in the middle must be the correct answer.

Phase 0
Phase 0 represents... Absolutely nothing. We don't allow in-universe pages to be written about the LEGO spin-offs, we treat the game like a charity novel and authoritatively ask that no one ever mention it again.

Phase 1
So Phase 1 is, very simply, the version of the policy which I pitched back in the old thread (which I think was active between 2015 and 2016).

So the idea of this is that split the main non-DLC campaign of LEGO Dimensions into the core levels. Then we specifically only allow for coverage of the levels which feature the Twelfth Doctor in the plot - the cutscenes - on top of the entire Doctor Who DLC.

To help clear things up, I'm here's links on the LEGO Dimensions wiki to all the level content this would entail:


 * 1) A Dalektable Adventure
 * 2) The Final Dimension
 * 3) The Dalek Extermination of Earth

So the basic gist here is that the story of these three levels, and nothing else, would be valid sources. However, the actual ruling of the 2016 thread was that we can't go with just Phase 1. This is what caused the game to be declared non-valid. So... What was the controversial phase 2?

Phase 2
So the basics of Phase 2 is this: we cover these three levels but don't stop at just the cutscenes. We also cover any in-game easter eggs in these sections, no matter how they might have been achieved. The reason this is controversial is that it involves us actually confronting the part of the game which originally resulted in it being non-valid: the ability to customize game play by summoning other playable characters from other franchises.

For instance, in the main Doctor Who story pack, if you know where to do it, you can summon the K1 robot through the rift. Clara Oswald also appears and K1 grows to a massive size and grabs her. You are then asked to summon someone with magic abilities (the game suggests Gandalf but I think you can use anyone from Harry Potter to the Wicked Witch) to throw rocks at K1 until he is defeated.

As another example, there is one point where you can find and repair a hidden TARDIS travel point. Doing so will take the TARDIS directly to the Black Archive, where Kate Stewart and Osgood are mulling around. Inside this room are A LOT of easter eggs. Omega's mask is in a box if you manage to put it back together, Missy is hidden if you can find her, the Genesis Ark is tucked away in a corner, and you can also find Bessie taken apart in various pieces. If you put Bessie back together, the Third Doctor appears through a portal and is chased away by the Time Scoop.

But the most famous easter egg is that if you do a series of very specific things involving summoning characters like Batman, the infamous Cyberbrig will come out of a panel in the wall and salute you.

So this was the specific reason this game was declared invalid ages ago. No one quite knew how we were supposed to cover something like this. And to be honest, I'm still not 100% sure myself.

The basic theory is we would cover these side-steps as potential things experienced by whatever main character was supposed to be experiencing that part of the story (the Twelfth Doctor for the expansion pack, Wyldstyle, Batman and Gandalf for the main game). Then, in a case by case basis, we would decide if the characters needed to summon said easter egg require their own pages. For instance, if you can summon any wizard/witch to do a task, we shouldn't go through the complexity of who was summoned. But if you need to summon specifically Batman to do something, yeah we'd cover Batman being a part of that easter egg's story.

I was also told by someone that there is some kind of in-game purchase you can now have a hologram access that in-game content without physically having the required LEGO. This either makes things more complex or less depending on the view point. We can either say that we've decided only the "hologram" version is valid for pages, or we can say that the hologram is just another possible path.

Phase 3
So here's where things get tedious. There are two levels that I know of outside of those listed in Phase 1 which feature mini-levels which feature some Doctor Who concept in them.

The main pitch of phase 3 is that we would allow coverage but only of the specific mini-levels and their set-up.

These are the LEGO Dimensions levels included in phase 3 (stories marked with * were not there before):


 * 1) A Dalektable Adventure
 * 2) The Final Dimension
 * 3) The Dalek Extermination of Earth
 * 4) The Mysterious Voyage of Homer*
 * 5) The Goonies*

In The Mysterious Voyage of Homer you can find the 200 from TV: Planet of the Dead. When broken, this reveals a TARDIS travel point. If the TARDIS is then used, the player can transport themselves to a small mini-level based on The Jetsons.

In The Goonies, if the player repairs another TARDIS travel point, they can find an entire hidden area based on The Power of the Daleks. When you arrive, the Twelfth Doctor is already there and yells at you. You can then repair and break a few things, eventually leading to you summoning the Dalek Emperor (but this time, the 1960s one!)

This is the coolest easter egg in the game and it is, without question, a Doctor Who level. So the theory is, at this point, we'd just cover the mini-levels and the direct set-up for them.

Phase 4
Okay, so Phase 4 is worse than phase 3.

On top of the mini levels listed above, several levels in the game also features cameos and easter eggs by Doctor Who universe characters and concepts. These are significant enough that if they happened in, say, a Marvel comic, they'd be covered without question. These are:


 * 1) A Dalektable Adventure
 * 2) Painting the Town Black*
 * 3) Once Upon A Time Machine in the West*
 * 4) GLaD to See You*
 * 5) Riddle-earth*
 * 6) Prime Time*
 * 7) The Final Dimension
 * 8) The Dalek Extermination of Earth
 * 9) The Mysterious Voyage of Homer
 * 10) The Goonies
 * 11) 71264 Story Pack*

Let's start off in the non-expansion levels.

Firstly, in Once Upon A Time Machine in the West (the Back to the Future level) the villainous Lord Vortech summons various random things from across the multiverse to hinder Wyldstyle, Batman and Gandalf. One of these is the Valiant, the aircraft carrier used by in series 3.

(It's my theory that the creators of this game really wanted to go ham with crossing over Back to the Future and Doctor Who but were only able to do it a few times in more implicit ways. The promotional trailers really play up the ability to have both on-screen at the same time.)

Riddle-earth features a secret level you can unlock depicting the spaceship from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.

Daleks then cameo in: Painting the Town Black (the DC level), GLaD to See You (Portal level), and Prime Time. Specifically, in the last level, a Special Weapons Dalek is pulled out to attack Lord Vortech.

Some of these cameos are for literally a cutscene, others go on for longer. So there are cases where we could, say, cover a specific moment without covering the entire level. It would just get dicey.

Finally, the last thing we have to discuss is the 71264 Story Pack. This one doesn't have the official name on the wiki and I kept it there as a bit of a surprise... But yes, this is the LEGO Dimensions level pack based on the LEGO Batman movie.

Obviously this was created at a completely different time than the rest of the packs, but it's hard to think of a metric of separating this level from the rest. And indeed this has very dire implications to those of you who might want this game validated.

Phase 4.5
Phase 4.5 is basically that we would also cover the level content of Phase 3 in their entirety even outside of the mini-levels, because why not?

Phase 5
Phase 5 is including all potential character interactions as valid. This is already a presumed part of coverage, as you'll discover at the page Batmobile.

You see, if you place the Twelfth Doctor on the game pad alongside the Batmobile lego piece, you can have the Twelfth Doctor drive it. As he does, he'll comment that he prefers Bessie. Placing the Cyberman figure will result in a similar comment.

This also means that we logically have to cover any character interaction which has any relevant to our pages. For instance, placing Wonder Woman near the TARDIS results in her saying that it looks like we something Superman would change clothes in. So based on the logic of Phase 5, we would say on Wonder Woman's page:


 * According to one possible telling of a source, a version of Wonder Woman who was a real superhero was pulled from her dimension into a dimension also occupied by the TARDIS. The superhero commented that it reminded her of something Superman would change clothes in. (GAME: LEGO Dimensions)

Going as far as this means that we'd have to reconcile that we're fully covering not only the narrative of the title and the narrative of the easter eggs... But also the entire gameplay itself. Once we do this, we might have to consider details like... the Doctor regenerating when he's killed or the option being available to switch Doctor incarnations, historically details we've let slide with topics like GAME: Dalek Attack, GAME: The Mazes of Time and PROSE: Doctor Who and the Rebel's Gamble. Which is a very messy messy thing to get into, as we literally would have to say that the Twelfth Doctor might have regenerated into the First Doctor... When that's only a part of the gameplay.

Phase 5 is actually entirely optional moving forwards for the most part. You can be in favor of phase 8 but not phase 5. However, I think not including Phase 5 opens up a puzzle: let's say we call LEGO Dimenisons valid. But we tell people we're not covering the gameplay interactions which aren't part of the plot...

Then where do we write that information down? Because surely it can't go on LEGO Dimensions, the page discussing the content of the (hypothetically) valid game and all the content within. We might need to have a unique subspace, for instance /Gameplay, if we go down a heavily anti-Phase 5 route.

Phase 6
Okay, so remember those TARDIS travel points? The kind of landing pads you can build to summon the TARDIS? Phase 6 is including in our coverage every single level where one of these exist. The logic being that as this is a physical point where the TARDIS is designed to travel to in-game, we should cover the entire level, or at the very least whatever easter egg level the TARDIS is used to access. (Presuming we're not including 4.5 earlier)

For instance, in the Harry Potter level, a TARDIS Travel point can be used to summon the TARDIS and take it to... Red Dwarf. Yes, the Red Dwarf ship from Red Dwarf.

Yes, it is awesome. No, I don't know why it's in the Harry Potter level.

Initially I was heavily against this, mainly because... well, I don't consider the TARDIS travel points to be a licensed DWU element! I think if LEGO wanted to release a set using one tomorrow they wouldn't have to pay the BBC. And I don't think the potential of summoning a DW element for gameplay justifies us insisting on coverage.

However, when you see how these are used the need to cover them is obvious. The Red Dwarf level does not exist without the TARDIS. It's not just "oh this a place where you COULD use a DW thing," it's "This doesn't exist without that DW thing."

Phase 7
Phase 7 is the natural extension of phases 5 and 6. The basic logic is that once we allow ourselves to cover minor elements exclusive to the game play, like random dialogue that happens when you put certain characters and vehicles together, then we no longer have just six levels to cover. We now have to cover any level where the Twelfth Doctor, K9, the Dalek, or the Cyberman make any unique comment of any kind.

Which would essentially meant that we would have to cover most of the game, and in a sense which is nearly impossible to define without extensive research.

Again, phase 7 is heavily stand-alone. You can want phase 8 without phase 7.

Phase 8: The Final Phase
Everything. Or at the very least, the entire non-DLC game. We cover all of that and whatever expansion packs we need to be relevant.

The logic here would be that there are few other crossovers we dissect like this. Where we say "Part 2 is valid but not part 3." And more importantly, if we go with coverage as overly simple as the stuff in Phases 1-3, there's huge chunks of the story which will be nearly incoherent in such limited coverage.

Another argument which could be made, that I know is an annoying point... Is that the "vortex" seen throughout the game is consistently referred to as "rift" technology, "the rift" etc.

I am fairly certain they did this as an extended reference to Doctor Who. So basically the logic might be that even the technology of hopping between these worlds might be DWU in nature.

At some point there is an argument to be made that Phase 8, despite being extreme, is the most consistent with active precedent. I just think, given everything before us, that it might be just slightly too extreme. So I would want us to seriously consider any of the options before this.

A theoretical Phase 9 would be the entire non-DLC campaign + all the DLC content. As in, the bonus levels where the protagonists are not Wyldstyle, Batman and Gandalf. I didn't include this here because... Why would we do that? Like, why? If there's a standalone DLC featuring the 2016 girl Ghostbusters and it has no DWU connections and it's a separate release... Why cover it? It doesn't make sense.

But Phase 8 would include all the DLC which do have any Doctor Who material. So we'd probably throw in The Goonies, the two Fantastic Beasts levels, the Simpsons DLC, etc. So, in theory, this is the coverage of phase 8:


 * 1) The entire non-DLC campaign
 * 2) The Dalek Extermination of Earth
 * 3) The Mysterious Voyage of Homer (The 200, The Jetsons)
 * 4) The Goonies (Planet of the Daleks)
 * 5) Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them: A Walk In The Park (Red Dwarf)
 * 6) Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them: Demiguise Double-Cross (TARDIS can take you to S.T.A.R. Labs from ''The Flash)
 * 7) 71264 Story Pack (LEGO Batman)
 * 8) Probably others. This game is filled with so much DWU content that I'm sure there might be more discoveries after we even close this discussion.

It's also entirely possible that for the DLC bonus levels which only feature the use of the TARDIS for mini-level that we'll go ahead and only cover the mini-level. So we'd say, "The Red Dwarf mini-level is valid. The rest of A Walk in the Park is not." But again, it all depends on how comfortable we feel with ultimatums like that.

Conclusions
So, personally, I think my natural instinct is for us to go with Phase 4... but the more that I think about it, I'm fairly certain it's just because Phase 8 scares me. Since I've joined this website people have told me that one day I would destroy the wiki with one of my bad ideas, and I guess I've started believing it at some point.

I'm also kind of pro-phase 5... until it's ridiculous. Minor interactions between, like, the Doctor and Wonder Woman... That's fine. But when you're saying, "Oh the gameplay element of swapping between Doctors needs to be discussed in-universe?" No, no it doesn't.

Basically, I think there's narrative stuff in the game and then gameplay stuff in the game. The former was actively designed to be wikified, the latter was not. We can still make it work but only to a certain extent.

This is a very very difficult topic. Again, this debate really has nothing to do with validity, as this content will be on the wiki even if it's non-valid and we really never gave this game an actual proper debate with the full scope in front of us.

I should also clarify that these phases are not totally linear. You can be fond of some elements of Phase 6 but not be a fan of Phase 5. I just thought it would be a good idea to lay everything out.

If you're ready to start debating this topic, you'll find a section for community discussion on phases of coverage below.

Part 3: Validity
Alright, so this is the thing a lot of you probably came here for. The big topic, does LEGO Dimensions pass Rule 4 of T:VS: stories must be intended to be set inside the Doctor Who universe.

So basically, the entire debate about this topic is this: in the Doctor Who sections of this game, is the inclusion of LEGO designs diegetic or non-diegetic?

To be diegetic is to exist within the fictional world as well as the real world. For instance, in The Stolen Earth, when Sarah Jane Smith comments on Mr Smith's music that plays when he boots up, this retcons that Mr Smith's music is a diegetic element which exists to the characters as well as us.

Meanwhile, when "The Doctor's Theme" plays and no one comments on it, that is understood to be non-diegetic. It's just an aspect of the world intended for the audience which doesn't actually impact the story.

As another example, Doctor Who Magazine artist Roger Langridge is famous for drawing extremely exaggerated depictions of the Doctor Who characters he presents, often for comedic effect. But this is considered to be something that exists to us, the reader, but not to the characters in the comic. It's merely a filter through which the story is told. Thus it is non-diegetic.

So basically, in order for any part of this game to be valid, or at least valid as the primary DWU, the LEGO elements in the Doctor Who sections need to be non-diegetic. As in, "this is the regular Doctor Who universe, and it just happens to look like LEGO, but the characters in the story do not recognize that."

Whereas if the story is completely diegetic, and the characters physically exist as LEGO bricks and not as an art style, the story is not set in the "real" Doctor Who universe, meaning it's either non-valid or valid as a parallel universe... depending on who you ask.

I want us to start this discussion with as much context as I can muster. Clues, arguments, possible answers, etc. However, I've been often stumped as, if we're being honest, this is sort of a silly question to try and find an answer to and very few people have done this officially. I, for instance, read through an official review of the game in DWM 494 but found no mention of if the LEGO elements are an art style or a facet of the universe.

So let's go ahead and go through what I have pieced together.

The thing about The LEGO Movie
Okay, so when discussing validity I think this is probably one of the main things I need to get ahead of.

As I mentioned before, LEGO Dimensions is essentially a multiverse connecting to franchises who have their own multiverses. This is most important when it comes to The LEGO Movie, which is where Wyldstyle comes from.

This was something I had to clarify in 2016, so I think it's something we need clarified now. The LEGO Movie is essentially already a multiverse movie, showing a long string of LEGO dimensions which can be traveled between by the protagonists. In the final act, however, it is revealed that there is another universe - the real world - and that the events of the film are essentially a metaphor for the physical space occupied in Will Ferrell's basement. (It's a lot less creepy sounding in context)

So when Wyldstyle goes to PIRATE WORLD in the movie, Pirate World is a physically existing part of Will Ferrell's LEGO Display in his basement. The universe of the LEGO population is still seen to exist, and Chris Pratt retains his autonomy in the real world. But the basic plot being that all the characters are semi-metaphorical toys is a pretty important part of the lore.

However, this is not the internal logic of LEGO Dimensions. Again, the version of Batman we see in the title is from. The game, in no way, retcons that the entire story depicted in the DC LEGO games dating back to 2008 secretly take place in Will Ferrell's basement. Furthermore, while Gandalf appears identical to the version of him from the LEGO Movie, he not only explicitly is not familiar with the LEGO Movie reality but is also not a "master builder" like he is in the film. (Wyldstyle is the only "master builder" out of the original three, meaning in the main campaign if you want to build something you have to switch to her)

In fact, and I implore you to look this up for yourself, if you carefully watch the animations and gameplay footage, Wyldstyle moves at a different frame rate than everyone else. This is because she imitates the animation style of the LEGO Movie while none of the other characters do (unless they're also from the LEGO Movie).

So it would not be an accurate summary to say that the Twelfth Doctor's adventures in this game are merely metaphorical, or that the game depicts toys brought to life by imagination or such things. So in general, the world building inside of the LEGO movies has close to no bearing on the actual worlds depicted in this title.

So generally, try to avoid going on a tangent in the discussion below.

The contents of the game itself
Okay, so this section will deal with commentating on the actual content of the game, specifically the three most important levels: A Dalektable Adventure, The Final Dimension and The Dalek Extermination of Earth. The point here is to depict the main bulk of the material relevant to validation: the actual segments which feature the Doctor or are set in the Doctor Who universe.

To try and get you immersed into the dedicated character work of the first game, I wanted to start off with a brief transcript of the opening cutscene:


 * Wyldstyle, Batman and Gandalf are falling through the vortex.
 * Wyldstyle: "Shouldn't we have arrived by now?"
 * Batman: "Yes. Something's up. Check your relic scanner."
 * Wyldstyle pulls out the scanner, which shows an error message.
 * Wyldstyle: "Uh... Not good!"
 * Gandalf: "So what do we do?"
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Well I suggest you mind your heads!"
 * The TARDIS appears in the vortex. The Twelfth Doctor emerges momentarily.
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Hold on a sec! Not that you have a choice in the matter. You're stuck in a rift loop."
 * The Doctor runs back inside the TARDIS, pulls a switch, and grabs a grapple gun, which he uses to grab the three and bring them inside.
 * Twelfth Doctor: "C'mon! Don't just sit there, you've got a bunch of monsters to meet."
 * Batman: "Who are you? What did you do to us?"
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Is he always like this, Wyldstyle? I assumed I'd just caught him at a bad time before."
 * Wyldstyle: "Uh, what?"
 * The Doctor scans Wyldstyle's relic scanner with his Sonic screwdriver
 * Twelfth Doctor: "I'm the Doctor. I locked onto your scanner. Remember that."
 * Batman: "Before. You said before."
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Well spotted Batman - go to the head of the class!"
 * The Doctor throws Batman an orange.
 * Twelfth Doctor: "This is the TARDIS. It travels in time. I've met you three before, but you haven't met me yet. That's time travel for you."
 * As the Doctor talks, Gandalf briefly is shocked by the TARDIS control console. For a moment, he turns from Gandalf the gray to Gandalf the white.
 * Batman: "You're lying."
 * Twelfth Doctor: "No, here's your grapple gun."
 * Batman pulls out another grapple gun, identical to the one given to him by the Doctor.
 * Batman: "Clearly a copy."
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Again, no. like I say, time machine - not a 3D printer. Just give me your grapple gun later."
 * The TARDIS lands in some sort of military base.
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Okay, out you go."
 * Batman: "Where are we?"
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Does it matter? Call it, I dunno, "Dave."
 * ''The Doctor hands Wyldstyle the same calling card the Seventh Doctor gave to the Black Dalek Leader in Remembrance of the Daleks.
 * Twelfth Doctor: "This is my phone number. You'll call it when you get into trouble and I'll help you out - I'm nice like that."
 * The Doctor heads back to the TARDIS.
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Look. Normally I'd come along with you, but if I cross my own time-stream here I'll rip a hope in the universe so big you could drive [Batman's] ego through it. Anyway, good luck!"
 * The TARDIS dematerialises.
 * Gandalf: "Can someone explain to me what's going on, please?"
 * Wyldstyle: Not really, no. But I think another Keystone's here.

Now if at any point in reading the above text you found yourself forgetting that everything in this scene is built out of LEGO, you'll be interested to know this is often something that happens when you're playing the game. It's like when you're watching a 1960s run of serials, and then you put on a story filmed in color and everything looks very weird because you were used to the monochrome.




 * Twelfth Doctor: "Okay, I should be able to lock onto this no problem."
 * The Doctor scans Wyldstyle's relic scanner then throws it back to her. He begins scanning the Gateway with his screwdriver
 * Twelfth Doctor: "Someone's using this rift technology like a Gallifreyan time scoop. They're pulling in monsters and madmen from everywhere!"
 * Batman: "We noticed."
 * Twelfth Doctor: "But that... should stop whoever's behind this track you from now on. No more rift loops. Speaking of which, I should go and rescue you from one."
 * Batman: "You'll need this."
 * Batman throws the Doctor one of his grapple guns.
 * Twelfth Doctor: "I usually take the stairs, but thanks. I'll go finish up with the Daleks and their pals."
 * Batman: "And we'll deal with the rest."
 * Batman: "Good. See you later. Or earlier."
 * The TARDIS begins to fade.
 * Gandalf: "What an odd fellow?"
 * Gateway Keeper: "The Scale Keystone. I'll handle that."
 * The keystone lifts into the air and is taken by a disembodied voice.

Steven Moffat quote
Okay, so this is the infamous smoking gun, or so we thought eight years ago...

At the San Diego Comic Con 2015, Steven Moffat, Michelle Gomez, Jenna Coleman and Peter Capaldi were on a panel about the game. There, the (mildly annoying) host asked Steven Moffat, directly: "Is LEGO Dimensions canon?"

Moffat's response? "Everything is canon."

Now, there's two big points of view about this. Some people argue that because this is a direct quote from Moffat saying "this game is a part of the Doctor Who canon, as is everything else", we have to cover it. Others think Moffat was joking, and was in fact saying the opposite. "RIIIIGHT, THIS is canon. (laugh track)"

I have mixed views. Firstly, I believe in a third option. I think he said this because he thought it was a stupid question. So not "YES THIS IS CANON" or "NO THIS ISN'T CANON I AM BEING SARCASTIC." It was his way of saying "Why should I be expected to answer this question? Why did I come to this panel in the first place?"

But yes indeed, it does represent the general show runner mindset of "If you want this to be canon, it is." Which I also think he was being very earnest about and does accurately represent how the Doctor Who portions of this game were branded. It's another story in the Doctor Who expanded universe which existed in the Capaldi era, and no distinction was made in discussing its contributions.

And it hard for me to imagine Moffat turning with a smile and saying "No, this isn't Canon. If you like this that's stuuuupid. You're stuuuupid."

Mark Warburton quote
While doing research, I was able to find this quote in the academic paper LEGO Dimensions meets Doctor Who: Transbranding and new dimensions of transmedia storytelling?:


 * Speaking at the opening day of the Doctor Who Festival at the ExCeL London (13th—15th November 2015), TT Games’ producer Mark Warburton noted of Dimensions’ relationship to Doctor Who: “don’t ask me how it fits into continuity; …that’s irrelevant – it’s fun” (Warburton, 2015).

Academic paper quotes
And now let's highlight some general quotes from that academic paper.

Now, I don't want to over-emphasize any of these because I find a lot of the analysis here disagreeable on a broader wiki sense... I think the standards used in this paper to define what is a "what if" story would not be good if used for all Doctor Who media, and the paper is very cynical. More importantly, these opinions serve as no concrete evidence as per authorial intent.

BUT since it is an analysis of the topic we're discussing, I thought it would be worth providing a few quotes:


 * "This ethos of “fun” and creative imagination means that it is the LEGO brand that ultimately predominates, not only bridging all the licensed properties that are communally rendered in digitised and physical LEGO brick form, but also overwriting them as part of a rather more singular LEGO dimension. For all the emphasis on hopping between storyworlds, the game reads as a kind of commercial ‘alternate universe’ where multiple franchises can collide precisely because the entire enterprise is plausibly, playfully and representationally insulated from all of the varied textual canons involved. Returning to the game’s #breaktherules promotion, then, it can be said that “LEGO characters… create the impression that they are outside the rules that bind games too closely to” TV source material (Aldred, 2014, p.115). The LEGO Doctor is patently not the Doctor as he appears on TV, but is instead a parallel twelfth incarnation existing in a distinctive LEGOverse."


 * "Considering what value might accrue to the brand of Doctor Who by participating in LEGO Dimensions, I identify this as a particular example of “What If?” transmedia (Mittell, 2015), arguing that LEGO Dimensions’ Doctor Who nevertheless fluctuates in terms of its brand (in)authenticity."


 * "LEGO Dimensions, I would suggest, complicates any clear binary of ludus versus paidia, according with Mittell’s careful recognition that “What Is” and “What If?” transmedia “can best be seen as vectors or tendencies rather than distinct categories, with fluidity and blur between the dual approaches” (2015, p.315). The overall ‘LEGO dimension’ of transformative play in brick form certainly resonates with the idea that this Doctor Who should be viewed as a parallel “What If?” version: this mode of transmedia extension avoids the threat of continuity errors which can bedevil “What Is” narrative extensions, for example the ‘Adventure Games’ released alongside series five in 2010 (see Perryman, 2014, p.235). Yet the gameplay involved in mastering ‘The Dalek Extermination of Earth’ involves ludic aspects at the same time as exemplifying “What If?” Doctor Who, while free roaming further intensifies the player’s capacity to engage in “paidia”, going beyond the basic ‘tone’ of LEGO Who. Complicating matters yet further, Marie-Laure Ryan has indicated that different types of player, e.g. achievers/explorers, may engage more fully in “ludus” or “paidia” (2006,p.199). If this is so, it should be noted that the Doctor Who Level Pack allows for broad differences in play orientation, whether gamers want to achieve high scores or explore the gameworld.

And to give a full context as per what is discussed in the bulk of the essay, here is the conclusion:


 * "In this article, I’ve suggested that the transmedia storytelling of LEGO Dimensions amounts to a commercialized ‘Alternate Universe’ version of multiple franchises that are reimagined in LEGO brick form (and in line with LEGO’s brand values). Insulated from issues of canon and continuity, this represents “What If?” transmedia (Mittell, 2015) but it simultaneously combines the play-forms of paidia and ludus, as well as displaying uctuating relationships to Doctor Who’s brand ‘authenticity’ (Catherine Johnson, 2013, p.108). In particular, although the Starter Pack represents its Daleks in ways that are more authentic to Traveller’s Tales LEGO games rather than to televised Who, the Level Pack uses paratextual shifters (variants of the theme music) to perform a greater degree of transmedia authenticity. At the same time, though, the Level Pack does not straightforwardly interpellate Doctor Who fans, since it also fails to feel like Who via its transformation of aliens into cannon fodder, its rewriting of K-9 as an in-game vehicle/gadget and its lack of a companion. For all LEGO Dimensions’ marketing as a playful combination of storyworlds, the realization of this transbranding is nevertheless strongly delimited by licensing agreements and by Time Warner’s ownership of various IPs. Fans’ “affective play” (Hills, 2002, p.90) may well be enmeshed in new dimensions of transworld storytelling and transbrand gaming, but Dimensions’ story of corporate licensing and fan-consumer socialization remains far from novel."


 * -Matt Hills, Professor of Film and TV Studies, Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies (Aberystwyth University)

Again, I find this analysis interesting but I'm not sure the whole "Any Doctor Who story which is more silly than the TV series must be a What If?" really stands as coherent on a wiki that covers Rose-the-cat and the Cedric (Search Out Space) without cracking a smile.

The essay just kind of screams "Steven Moffat says there is no Doctor Who canon, now here's what the Doctor Who canon is." I mean, one of the quotes above is literally him saying "Fun exists in the LEGO brand but not the Doctor Who universe." That's ridiculous.

But he does make a lot of good points despite that.

LEGO Batman movie
So the hardest part of the discussion of validity is that there is a clear argument to be made that if we validate all of the Doctor Who content in LEGO Dimensions... We'd also validate the video game adaptation of The LEGO Batman Movie.

Now, recapping this topic for those of you who weren't there, LEGO Batman never officially failed Rule 4. It was declared unlicensed by one of our admins... Which was a lie. We just made up a lie basically.

BUT as the person who started that debate, I think the feeling was very much that we needed to talk about this... But very few people were excited for the LEGO Batman film to be a valid source on the website. And I think that's a weight that's going to bear down on this discussion. Basically, if we validate LEGO Dimensions, LEGO Batman would have a potential claim to Rule 4 by proxy, as it's depicted in this game as an alternate dimension... although one featuring a completely different Batman than the one in this game.

I just feel it's important to get this talking point out there, because obviously it's difficult.

I would argue there's actually a chance that the "rule 4 by proxy" argument isn't solid here. It's hard to think of a very very good argument... But imagine if, for some reason, we had evidence to validate the Back to the Future novelisation. Should we be able to validate Back to the Future based on this? That's the best comparison I have because the game adaptation of The LEGO Batman Movie is not the same as the movie at all.

Another detail is that while The LEGO Movie is canon to LEGO Dimensions, LEGO Dimensions is not canon to The LEGO Batman Movie and The Lego Movie 2. But I've been told the LEGO Batman Movie DLC is in-continuity with the rest of the game, down to featuring the LEGO Dimension versions of the Daleks. So you could almost read it as a what if based around LEGO Batman, "What if The LEGO Batman Movie treated LEGO Dimensions as canon?"

The point is that The LEGO Batman Movie would need its own debate, but it's fair to say that it is the end of the slippery slope.

"LEGO Worlds" and the human world
So one of the more contentious discoveries made recently has been a promotional video made for the LEGO Dimensions game. It stars the LEGO cast meeting Joel "I need a better agent" McHale, also a voice actor in the main campaing. You can find the video under the title LEGO Dimensions - Joel McHale Trailer.

However, I later discovered that game developers actually later hid this video in the game itself via a hidden level titled Mystery Dimension. The Dimension is, very clearly, the "real world." Here you have to battle waves of bad guys from all of the "year one" levels, which includes Cybermen, Daleks and Zygons.

(My guess here is they made this promo video, then they built a battle royale hidden level type thing just to show off that they could recreate Joel McHale's desk from the video)

Once you beat the level, the cutscene plays.

So the big controversial moment is when Wyldstyle says this line:

"Okay so here's the deal. There's this real bad dude, wears a helmet, he's been tearing rifts between all the LEGO worlds."

- Wyldstyle

Later, when Joel McHale helps rebuild the Batmobile, the group commend Joel. He responds: "I play with LEGO a lot." The group act awkward and head back to the portal.

Now the big controversial think is that this is the only time in the game that Wyldstyle uses that controversial phrase: "LEGO worlds." At any other point in the story, the writers are very careful to not use phrases like this. In fact, if you'd like to be overly detailed...

Here is every other time they say the phrase "LEGO" in the non-DLC sections of the game.

The first instance happens after Gandalf and Batman fall into the LEGO Movie universe. Gandalf has been pulled out of time while fighting the Balrog, Batman while protecting Gotham city. Immediately after falling into the LEGO Movie reality, the Will Arnett Batman and the Troy Baker Batman start fighting.


 * Gandalf: Might I suggest that we set on a quest to find this, er, "rift" you say?
 * Unikitty: A quest?! Let me go pack some rainbow coloured LEGO bricks!
 * Emmet: And I'll get my wrench!
 * Gandalf: We shall be the Fellowship of the-
 * Gandalf and Wyldstyle: Aaaaarrrrrr!
 * Batman (The LEGO Movie): "Fellowship of the Aar!"? That's a terrible name.

That's it.

An interesting moment does happen at another point in the game, wherein they've put X-PO (the robot Joel McHale voices) back together. X-PO explains that Lord Vortech plans to "collapse the dimensions" together. Gandalf questions what that means.


 * X-PO: "Real bad. To put it in a way that each of you would understand. (to Gandalf) It's like if Sauron ruled all of middle Earth. (to Wyldstyle) Or your entire world got glued together. (to Batman) Or everyone found out you're actually Bruce Wayne."

I think this is one of the most telling quotes in the entire game, as it hammers home one of my biggest points: that the LEGO Movie dimension has internal rules not followed by any of the other universes. So while the world being covered in glue is a threat to Wyldstyle's world, it isn't a threat to Gotham City.

And I think it's very telling that only characters from the LEGO Movie universe have any understanding of the phrase "LEGO", a natural extension of the plot to the first film.

However, on that note, it's still hard to get around that promotional video and especially hard to get around it being hidden inside the game as an unlockable cutscene. If you consider that part of the greater plot it does seem to indicate that the LEGO elements in the story are indeed universally diegetic.

I also think there's an argument to be made that LEGO can have two meanings: "LEGO" the physical bricks and then "LEGO" the brand. Given that the phrase "LEGO worlds" originates from what was clearly created as a commercial and then thrown into the game as a secret, I'm leaning towards the latter being the intention. It was basically just a way of saying "LEGO Dimensions" in a clever way. But this doesn't get around, you know, Joel McHale playing with LEGO...

My final statement: this easter egg does not give extra context to the lore and intentions of the game. It actively contradicts the lore and intentions of the game because it was just meant to be a little fun gag. But if this level was the only evidence we had in this debate I think it would be enough to call the title either an alternate universe or non-valid.

Stephen Sharples "interview"
Okay, so because there have been so few official articles and interviews just about this topic, I decided to try and reach out to a few people who worked on the game. I eventually ended up finding the contact info of Stephen Sharples, who not only was involved with the writing but also was present when Peter Capaldi recorded his audio.

Now, often in these forums there might be accusations of leading questions. So, to be professional, I will also be including the exact email I sent to get this response.


 * Hi! Thank you so much for the follow and for sending an email. I had a few questions I wanted to ask specifically about the production of the game LEGO Dimensions.


 * So I'm part of a pretty large Doctor Who community, and we're essentially setting up to encourage more people to cover the in-game content of the title. However, I've always felt there was some ambiguity and there's sort of a debate that's been waiting to happen. So I'd be grateful if you humored a few stupid questions that I have.


 * When you play the game I think it's immediately obvious that the Doctor Who content is treated completely differently from the content of any of the other worlds and franchises. The most obvious detail is that the included stories are brand new instead of just being a retelling of some random episode. But you could also argue the internal logic of each "LEGO world" is implied to be different, such as the LEGO Movie's rules not applying to the other dimensions.


 * So the basic question I wanted to ask if this: was it the intention at the time that the LEGO elements in the Doctor Who levels were diegetic or non-diegetic? As in, was this a parallel version of N-Space which is made out of LEGO, or did the creative team intend that this was the regular N-Space and it just happened to appear as LEGO as a stylistic choice?


 * As a specific example: when the Twelfth Doctor lands on Trenzalore, would that content be best for the main Trenzalore page? Or would it fit better on a page like Trenzalore (LEGO universe)? [I sign my real name]

Now here is his response:


 * Hi [my real name],


 * First of all, thanks for the email and for the enthusiasm for the Doctor Who content in LEGO Dimensions.


 * I think it's fair to say that Doctor Who had some special treatment in the game that was primarily down to members of the team being huge fans of the IP (me included). We felt that this was very much a one-off event that would never happen again, so we were determined to create something truly memorable, and a love letter to the show and its history.


 * It's an interesting question on whether the Who content is set in its own parallel LEGO Universe or not. My take on it is that the Doctor Who content is all in the main Universe of Who, but perhaps on an alternate timeline. The fact that things are made of LEGO is purely stylistic.


 * So, with your Trenzalore example, I would include it in the main page rather than separating it off...even though it made little sense having the 12th Doctor end up there briefly.


 * At the end of the day, we just wanted to cram as much fun content into the Doctor Who portion of the game to give Whovians something to cheer about in the games space....because there's not been much of that . It's the same reason I still work on my own little fan projects years later because I don't think anything has ever topped what we did with Dimensions, and I still have a desire to see great standalone Doctor Who games out there.


 * Hope this helps you out, if you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them, providing it doesn't break any NDAs or anything.


 * Thanks,
 * Stephen

So I think that pretty much confirms what I've always suspected, that the Doctor Who levels received special treatment. We can pretty much confirm that while some dimensions in the title are intended to be literal LEGO, such as the LEGO Movie universe, the Doctor Who universe being made out of LEGO bricks "is purely stylistic."

I think him saying that the game is "maybe an alternate timeline" is merely a representation of what the academic paper referenced before. The hesitation to be bound by continuity. I suspect Stephen made this comment due to minor contradictions which were not purposeful, such as Davros meeting the Twelfth Doctor for the first time here despite that later being contradicted by TV. Imagine if a writer for the Virgin novels said "Well, they're maybe an alternate timeline." Very much the "maybe" hinges upon if the player/reader finds the material offensive to content created later.

I think the more telling quote is him stating that we should cover the level set on Trenzalore at Trenzalore, not any sort of subspace or subpage. I think that says that the "alternate timeline" reading is entirely optional.

At the very least I believe that this email clearly debunks any narrative of us making a page like LEGO N-Space or LEGO Twelfth Doctor or the such.

My thoughts
So I'm going to ramble about my personal opinions here and my big take on if this should be a valid source or not. This isn't going to be easy, as one could argue every piece of evidence above feels like the smoking gun if studied apart from the rest.

So LEGO Dimensions, when it comes to those original three levels we talked about in Phase 1, is probably my favorite Doctor Who video game ever. It just has so much charm to it and in such a way that no one else has been able to capture. My honest feeling is that the BBC constantly proves they don't understand the show or its fanbase and I think that's why the best Doctor Who game was made by an outside publisher and probably without interference. I mean, having a team who not only carefully recreated each Doctor's TARDIS interior within the game but hide an entire sub-level that is exclusively an extended homage to The Power of the Daleks? We'll be lucky if we ever get something that cool again.

And I'll state my ongoing hot take. When it comes to the depiction of the Doctor Who universe in these three levels, I think there was a consistent effort to make them indistinguishable from the real deal. When the Twelfth Doctor lands on the aborted-timeline Trenzalore and comments that this paradox shouldn't be possible... That doesn't feel like "OH this is a sequel to LEGO The Time of the Doctor." It feels like a very, VERY earnest exploration of the Doctor Who universe.

And indeed, it is not easy for us as a community to look past an official quote from Moffat. "Everything is canon," everything specifically including this game. I would also be quick to say that the other quote we have, "it's just fun", does not imply a lack of DWU connections.

However, I think things get more dicey when we start to realistically explore how we intend to cover this title. Once you get into the logic of "Oh, every Dalek cameo has to be covered like it's a Doctor Who level" you start to feel the slope get very slippery. And the end of that slope is, as we know, LEGO Batman being valid as a parallel universe to the DWU.

At the end of the day, I think validating all of this stuff is a lot less harmful than we would otherwise admit. As I've said in other debate, only the content from the main Doctor's universe would actually be relevant to T:NPOV. So actually covering this game would improve our coverage of stuff like Batman. Instead of the wiki blindly saying "some sources say Batman was fictional while other sources say he's a real guy," the article would say "Batman was a fictional character in the Doctor's universe" and then waaaaaaay down the article we'd link to Batman (LEGO Dimensions) and we'd say in one universe Batman was real.

This is a detail we can't currently say when covering things like Supergirl Meets E.T., because while the multiverse storytelling is made clear in-game it's not stated in the webcasts. So it will be extremely helpful to our readers to be able to say "In one universe, ET was a real person. The Twelfth Doctor met this version of ET at some point."

Others might disagree, but I've found that when we validate things for being "alternate universes" they tend to stay in their own corners of the site. I call this the anti-T:NPOV, the idea being that while sources set inside the Doctor's immediate universe must be covered equally, this doesn't apply to other realities. So AUDIO: Exile is not brought up every time gender-changing regenerations occur - because it's set in a parallel universe, not the main DWU.

So while levels set in the Doctor's universe in this title would necessitate some sense of T:NPOV, this wouldn't be true for levels set in GLaDOS' universe.

I would go as far as to say that if a non-LEGO image is available for a character like Superman, that should be what is in the infobox. Because Superman's page should always cover his content in the Doctor's universe first, and once Dimensions is valid we'll have evidence that the "Superman who looks like LEGO to us" comes from another dimension and not the Doctor's.

At the end of the day, I think this topic is a little more complex than either side would admit. It's not 100% accurate to say "The entire Doctor Who level pack was exclusively meant to be a gag LEGO version of the character who had no connection to the established universe," but it's also not right to say "Covering the DW content of this game would be easy and without consequence."

At the end of the day, I think we have three main options here:


 * 1) All LEGO crossover content becomes non-valid on the website, including stuff like Doctor, Doctor, Doctor and Supergirl Meets E.T.. We continue to allow coverage but only in the non-valid subspace.
 * 2) We validate whatever parts of LEGO Dimensions we choose to cover, with the segments set in the Doctor Who universe being covered as the actual Doctor Who universe and all other segments being covered as segments set in other dimensions.
 * 3) We validate whatever parts of LEGO Dimensions we choose to cover, with even the Doctor Who universe segments being considered a separate universe. This is the basic idea of the "LEGO N-Space" or however you want to put it.

I think a big problem with saying "Oh, well this is a copy of the Doctor's universe made out of LEGO" is that we have no in-universe proof of that being the perspective of the actual citizens of the universe. The Twelfth Doctor does not identify as being a LEGO minifigure. I fear that saying "This was a universe made out of LEGO bricks, instead of a universe which appeared in the LEGO style" is extracting something from the material which is never stated or even implied when it comes to depictions of the Doctor's universe in-game.

As per the promotional video, later hidden in the game, I think it's very useful to us that Wyldstyle, canonically from one of the only universes which has a concept of "LEGO", is the one to use the term "LEGO worlds."

And I also just do not like the idea of disqualify the entire game and throwing out all the evidence we do have just because this one easter egg level does a fun little idea that doesn't mesh with the rest of the content. It feels very "fun police," like it's an arena level with a fun gimmick why are we busting in here and saying "weee wooo weee wooo fourth wall gag entire game invalid now!"

To me, it's like when you're reading a Find Your Fate novel and ending 1 has lore that contradicts ending 2. This is heavily an "according to one telling" sort of thing, not something that defines how the story has to be covered.

But regardless, it's my opinion that each dimension in the title has its own internal logic. And we have direct confirmation from someone who worked on the title that in the Doctor Who universe, the LEGO art style is just that. A stylistic choice. The Twelfth Doctor is not in an alternate universe where he's made out of LEGO, he's the regular Twelfth Doctor but he appears to us in the LEGO style. And that's an important distinction, even if it's not one we can make in each dimension in the title.

Final, Final thoughts
So if you're at this point in the OP and you still feel totally left behind, I'd like to make a recommendation. Go to YouTube and search for a compilation of cut scenes from this game. You should be able to find a 94 minute cutscene compilation of the main game and a 5 minute cutscene compilation of the Doctor Who level pack. I think this will set you up for the extent of what we might cover and the sort of stakes at hand. The non-Doctor Who portions do not feel DWU-esque at all. But once they're physically inside the Doctor Who universe, I think it's very convincing... And I think that's the point?

The big thing that's always shocked me about this game is that they just let the Doctor take over the final arc. Like, it's the Doctor as the main guest and then other franchises mull around in the background. I think if you try to judge this game without seeing the full ending you're doing it a disservice.

There's a lot here, and clearly I have a bias towards validation. But I at the very least like to believe that I have left no stone uncovered and no truth hidden in the discussion we have before us. If you want to argue for this being non-valid, you have all the info you need to do this. OS25🤙☎️ 05:21, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

LEGO Dimensions coverage discussion

 * Note: This section is exclusively for discussing how to go about covering LEGO Dimensions, regardless of if it is valid or non-valid. Please do not discuss if the title passes rule 4 in this section.

to be added

LEGO Dimensions validity discussion

 * Note: This section is exclusively for discussing the validity of LEGO Dimensions, specifically if it passes Rule 4. To discuss extent of coverage, see section above.

to be added