Forum:Is using "First Doctor", "Second Doctor" etc in-universe?

Original discussion
Are the terms "First Doctor", "Second Doctor" etc not out of universe? I've noticed on many pages that these types of names are used. Since these pages are supposed to be in-universe and these terms are out-of-universe, they shouldn't be used should they? The terms "first incarnation" etc should be used, shouldn't they? The Thirteenth Doctor 18:25, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Can I please get a reply about this? The Thirteenth Doctor 13:42, August 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really, though I'm sure if you looked (I think some of Terrance Dicks' novels do use the term, I think it's used in The Eight Doctors) there's probably more out there.
 * First Doctor, like Romana II is a term of convenience and brevity.
 * First incarnation is preferable, though 'First Doctor' is sometimes a useful though its in-universe credentials are somewhat questionable. --Tangerineduel 13:59, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I think the Timelords did refer to the Doctors as First Doctor, Second Doctor, and Third Doctor in The Three Doctors. Doesn't that make it in-universe.--Icecreamdif 22:14, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * The terms themselves might be considered marginally in-universe (most recently, the Eleventh Doctor pointed to himself and said "Eleventh,") but in common descriptions the terms are just not stylistically used. Someone in-universe, under normal circumstances, would just be calling him "the Doctor," just as someone referring to you today would probably just say "Icecreamdif" rather than "(your current age)-year-old Icecreamdif." In-universe, the Doctor is the Doctor is the Doctor, etc. The rule tends to be bent only where absolutely necessary. Rob T Firefly 22:42, August 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Even in the Five Doctors, didn't they simply ask each other which regeneration they were on, not which Doctor? And the eleventh's saying eleventh could have also referred to eleventh face, eleventh incarnation, eleventh body... etc, and not necessary eleventh Doctor. --The Thirteenth Doctor 11:55, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

They did use the term "First Doctor" etc. in The Three Doctors. It would be similar to describing Amelia in The Eleventh Hour or The Big Bang as the seven year old Amy Pond.Icecreamdif 22:15, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Revisited
To answer the original question quite belatedly, yes, it is absolutely, firmly, clearly canonical to use the terms first Doctor, second Doctor, etc. Terrance Dicks made it so by thoroughly using the naming convention throughout EDA: The Eight Doctors. All eight of the Doctors are repeatedly called by their number, there. And that's all that's necessary for our site to view it as in-universe. There's nothing "marginal" about that, despite what Rob T Firefly intimates, above. Are we really going to argue with the most prolific Doctor Who writer in history?

There's a separate, stylistic issue as to whether we want to go with first Doctor or First Doctor. The Eight Doctors goes with the latter, but many reference books — for instance everything I've ever seen written by David J. Howe — goes with the former. We probably do need to pick one of the two and specify it in the manual of style. But there's absolutely no question of it being in-universe. I think it's even canon just using televised stories, when you combine The Lodger with Death of the Doctor. People remember he said "eleventh" in The Lodger, but this thread seems to have gone cold before the broadcast of Death of the Doctor, where he urges Jo and Sarah to remember "every Doctor, every me". This indicates he thinks of himself as different Doctors, and, when combined with his earlier mention of "eleventh", it's not unreasonable to believe that even televised Doctor Who views "eleventh Doctor" (or "Eleventh Doctor") as a valid term.

As a practical matter, we absolutely should be using the terms "first Doctor", "second Doctor" etc. Rob says above to use it "only when necessary", as in the plot section to The Five Doctors. But this whole wiki is one massive Five Doctors. That is, each page tries to find as much information about a topic, and frequently lists several instances in which various incarnations of the Doctor have interacted with that topic. I can't tell you how many pages I've found where it's point after point that begins with just "The Doctor". It's so confusing, especially to readers who don't know that much about Doctor Who to face a wall of sentences that begin with "the Doctor". That doesn't specify anything. For the benefit of our readers, we absolutely should be using constructions like:


 * The fifth Doctor and Nyssa visited the planet in 2256. Later, in 2290, the tenth Doctor and Martha stayed there for some ten weeks, whilst investigating a Rutan threat.  In 5345, the third Doctor and Jo made an unexpected stop here on their way home from Peladon.

not


 * The Doctor and Nyssa visited the planet in 2256. Later, in 2290, the Doctor and Martha stayed there for some ten weeks, whilst investigating a Rutan threat.  In 5345, the Doctor and Jo made an unexpected stop here on their way home from Peladon.

One is instantly understandable, and the other requires mouseovers for full comprehension. Now I'm not saying we should eliminate expressions like "first incarnation" or "second self" or "third body", "fourth lifetime" or even "fifth life". All these are good and proper terms that have at least a kind of canonicity about them, in that the Doctor has said "other selves", "all my lives", "this old body", and the like. And it's good to have word choice. But their possible use in no way invalidates the good, old, natural " Doctor". Since it is "legal" to use the ordinal number + Doctor construction, I'd point out that it'd be relatively easy indeed for the bot to convert the Doctor into just first Doctor again. In other words, I think we should specifically outlaw the conversion of an ordinal-numbered Doctor into just "the Doctor" on the grounds that it makes the text unnecessarily less specific.

Capitalisation definitely looks better (in my opinion). I agree we should specify as it may be confusing to read lists involving multiple Doctors where the incarnation is not specified.--Skittles the hog-- Talk 18:29, February 17, 2011 (UTC)