Talk:The Master (Terror of the Autons)

Rename proposal: Twelfth Master
In The Keeper of Traken, Geoffrey Beevers' Master says, "I am now nearing the end of my twelfth regeneration." This is the one explicit identification we've been given for the Master's incarnation count, and no later sources have contradicted this account. Unfortunately, various ambiguities mean that we cannot simply rename Decayed Master to Thirteenth Master. However, we can use this fact for the naming of this page.

When Twelfth Master was proposed in 2011–12, it was shot down because Legacy of the Daleks was taken to indicate that Delgado was the Thirteenth Master and had decayed directly into Beevers without an intervening regeneration. However, in the decade since, Big Finish Productions has released several audios featuring the Beevers Master before he was decayed (such as The Two Masters) and several which explicitly confirm that Delgado and Beevers were separate incarnations (most notably Masterful). Doctor Who Magazine's Doorway to Hell also demonstrated that Delgado's Master had the ability to regenerate. With this preponderance of sources, the obstacle to naming dissolves away: even though some accounts called her "Susan English", we named Susan Foreman's article "Susan Foreman" because that was simply the name supported by the most stories! The same applies to Twelfth Master.

But even ignoring these new stories, Legacy of the Daleks simply doesn't support the interpretation which was cited to shoot down the proposal 10 years ago. To briefly digress into analysis, when the Doctor and the Delgado Master first meet in Legacy, they talk as if the Master still has regenerations left: "‘So you’ve changed bodies again? Getting through them aren’t you?’ ‘And you’re still in the same old body,’ the Doctor mused thoughtfully. ‘Quite remarkable. You’re rather well preserved.’ ‘Thank you,’ said the Master with a small ironic bow. ‘Life has been rather good to me of late.’"

- Legacy of the Daleks

That conversation would simply make no sense if Delgado was the Thirteenth Master; it wouldn't be ‘Life has been rather good to me,’ it would be ‘Yeah, dummy, I can’t regenerate’! Later, at the end of the novel, the Doctor reflects on what he's learned: "He already knew that the Master had hidden on Tersurus when his final regeneration had been used up. Some devastating force had ravaged his body and left him a crippled wreck."

- Legacy of the Daleks

In other words, Delgado's transformation into Beevers is explicitly described as using "his final regeneration". Legacy of the Daleks speaks loud and clear: Delgado is the Twelfth Master.

With Legacy addressed, the only potential remaining dissent comes from FASA's CIA File Extracts, which is famously contradictory (it also says the Monk is the Master) and dampens its own credibility by presenting itself as a speculative in-universe document. That story specifies that Delgado was indeed the Thirteenth Master – but it also says he was the Twelfth, Tenth, Ninth, Eighth, and so on for several physically identical incarnations. Even in this highly contrary account, "Twelfth Master" is still an accurate name for this page!

As I hope I've made clear, a preponderance of sources point toward a single consensus numbering for Roger Delgado's incarnation as the Twelfth Master. This seems like a gold standard for Master incarnation naming: non-speculative; already widely attested in fandom; and supported by the existing precedent of prioritising incarnation numbering when available. I hope that by making this one of the first names we adopt following the Master split, we can set a strong precedent for future incarnation naming discussions. Thanks for reading! – n8 (☎) 15:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I support this proposal. It makes perfect sense. Danniesen ☎  15:19, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I completely agree. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  15:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I am in 100% agreement with this proposal. It handily addresses the confusion surrounding Legacy of the Daleks. Also worth noting is that it’s not just the characters in-universe from that story, but the OOU narrator. “There was no respite now, no way to regenerate from such a death.” This statement would not make sense if Delgado was the Thirteenth Master —why would the means of death matter if he was on his last incarnation? This handily pushes the major source for “Delgado as not the Twelfth Master” out of contention. I say we go with Twelfth Master.NoNotTheMemes ☎  15:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I also completely agree with this proposal. 15:42, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. Firstly because I think it's a bad name that isn't really in keeping with our current naming system - all the other Masters aren't listed by incarnation number, they've all got nicknames, this doesn't keep in with that. Additionally, there's not explicit confirmation on him being the 12th incarnation - no story calls him that, the only reason it's concluded he's the "12th" is that most sources have him transform into the Decayed Master, who's out of lives. However, there are some sources out there that seem to indicate that Delgado could have been an incarnation before the 12th (As stated above, Legacy implies he's got regenerations left, but there's nothing stating he's on his last regeneration in it - this also goes for other sources that feature him regenerating), and the accident that transforms him into the Decayed prevents him from regenerating further. Other accounts seem to indicate that he's the 13th and Decayed is the 14th (The Death List from Girl Power and some of the annual stories seem to suggest this). So that's why I don't support this name change. Perhaps not the most eloquent response, and I'll probably remember other points I should have made as part of this later, but I think it makes the point clear - I do not support this name, and feel like we should continue the search for a more general one that isn't tied to incarnation number, since we haven't done that with any other Master. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎  16:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I must say, I am with Outcast on that one. While there is indeed a few sources implying he is the twelfth incarnation, I don’t find it conclusive, and I genuinely feel like having just one numbered incarnation in the middle of proposed nicknames and story dabs is not for the best.


 * As well, i feel that with the few sources listed above, there’s enough doubt about the specific numbers that I wouldn’t feel very comfortable having it as a page name. And while I know things can always change later, I’m also not sure if this is very future proof (Big Finish or the likes might very well produce more stories showing him not to be the twelfth incarnation after all)


 * For now, I am more in favor of keeping the current name, though I do see why the argument for “the Twelfth Master” exists, and I will not deny it has some ground to stand on. Liria10 ☎  17:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * While I acknowledge that your argument against the name on the basis of disputing accounts, which is perfectly fair... I strongly, strongly disagree about not using it on the basis if it's "not consistent" with other names.


 * Doctor Who isn't consistent. It just isn't. There will never be a unanimous naming scheme for Doctors, K9s, universes, and Masters. But that being said, occasionally, some individual names can be mostly agreed upon, and arguing that we shouldn't use them because they won't be consistent with other names... guess we're moving Eleventh Doctor to The Doctor (The End of Time)!


 * And besides, naming this page Twelfth Master is not ascribing a naming scheme to other Masters, it's just for this Master, which most accounts seem to agree is the twelfth incarnation. We should be able to acknowledge certain Masters as being a certain incarnation number. 18:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I also oppose this proposal, for the reasons Outcast and Liria listed above.

Part of the reason it's OK to have Susan Foreman is that which particular surname she happened to adopt on Earth is a minor point; branding Delgado's character "the Twelfth Master", on the other hand, has massive implications for the character's backstory. It would be making an objective ruling about how many lives he's lived, when no such agreement exists. An article's title is perhaps more important than the article itself - it's what proliferates in hyperlinks all across the wiki, and shapes readers' perceptions of who a character really is to a far greater extent than any footnote or equivocation in the page's prose. As such, it needs to be held to an especially high standard of neutrality.

Additionally, it would falsely suggest a consensus that all eleven of the character's previous incarnations went by "the Master", which would contradict numerous stories that have them going by Koschei, Pavo, Magnus, the War Chief, and so on.

I would question the idea that there's a "preponderance of sources" saying that Delgado is the Twelfth Master - that may be one valid interpretation of several sources, but any story which suggests he's capable of regeneration, yet does not actually show him complete that process successfully, is exactly as compatible with the annuals' statement that Delgado was the Thirteenth Master and underwent a botched regeneration.

I don't see anything conclusive about those Legacy of the Daleks quotes. Remember: this is the Eighth Doctor, who has already seen the Ainley and Roberts Masters - he knows full well that Delgado is going to live and acquire multiple further bodies, regardless of whether the Doctor knows or believes that Delgado is on his eleventh, or twelfth, or thirteenth incarnation (and there's no reason, as far as I'm aware, to assume that the Doctor even does know the truth; for instance, the Fourth Doctor in Blood of the Time Lords has only a vague sense of how many times the Dreyfus Master has regenerated). "You're rather well preserved," with this in mind, is just a dramatically ironic comment from a Doctor who has already seen the crispy fate of the man he's talking to. The Master's accepting a compliment about his appearance simply does not confirm that he is capable of regeneration. As for the second quote, it shows the Doctor reflecting on his own vague, incomplete understanding of a situation he had heard of only indirectly - it does not state whether the Decayed Master was the result of a successful twelfth or unsuccessful thirteenth regeneration, only that the Decayed Master had run out, which does not give us a number for Delgado.

I have an alternative proposal for Delgado's character, one which would sidestep the problem of numbering entirely: Keller Master. This option has several advantages: Emil Keller is the first alias that this Master ever creates for himself, appearing as early as his second-ever story, The Mind of Evil. Additionally, we're told that Keller had installed his Keller Machine in Stangmoor Prison "nearly a year" earlier, and that he had already treated 112 prisoners in Switzerland. As such, it's clear that Keller isn't a momentary, inconsequential alias, but an identity that this Master has been establishing, building, and working and living under long-term - meaning that, in fact, he was actually already in the middle of his life and work as Emil Keller during Terror of the Autons, Delgado's debut story. In my view, this makes Keller Master equivalent to and consistent with the incoming Saxon Master precedent. And, without wishing to risk T:NPOV, I just personally think it'd be nice to go with a name that was actually used on-screen in live-action episodes with Roger Delgado all the way back in 1971, rather than a numbering that was debatably implied decades later by some but not all of a contradictory assortment of spin-off audios and novels - Keller Master claims nothing at all about the Master's timeline or backstory beyond what's right there on the screen. PintlessMan ☎  19:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

"Twelfth Master" gets my support/vote, if there is such a vote. This can also be clarified in the "Notes/Behind the Scenes" section if necessary. However, I'm also not averse to keeping the name as is for now if people wish to wait for a little more concrete to be poured into the sources. FractalDoctor ☎  21:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * To respond to PintlessMan, I would agree that the quotes cited by N8 from Legacy of the Daleks alone do not prohibit the 'Delgado' Master from being the Thirteenth Master --but that does not mean that it is in SUPPORT of him being the Thirteenth Master. At best, it would indicate that Legacy of the Daleks is neutral on the matter. However, the concert of:
 * (1) McGann's reference to Delgado not regenerating,
 * (2) Delgado not remarking that he couldn't yet,
 * (3) McGann noting that he can't give the Master future information (The Doctor explicitly states that he must speak carefully to avoid giving the 'Delgado' Master future information, as he had met "2.5 bodies" since the Third Doctor had fought with the 'Delgado' Master), and
 * (4) the third person narration noting that the circumstances of Susan's assault were what prohibited successful regeneration RATHER than it being his last incarnation
 * are all in furtherance of it actively SUPPORTING that they are separate incarnations. Even if you want to disregard that, however, that would mean that Legacy of the Daleks should have no influence on determining his incarnation. By that token, that would mean all valid sources that take a position on the matter concur in that the 'Delgado' Master is capable of regeneration and is, thus, not the Thirteenth Master.
 *  The vast preponderance of sources state that the ‘Decayed’ Master is the Thirteenth Master. 
 * According to both The Deadly Assassin and The Keeper of Traken, the 'Decayed' Master has reached his thirteenth incarnation. He has expended twelve regenerations. Thus, the 'Decayed' Master is the thirteenth incarnation.
 * The 'Beevers' Master being the Thirteenth Master is echoed numerous times –such as in Mastermind, Planet of Dust, and Day of the Master --alongside a cacophony of implicit references from other sources.
 * The sole contradiction to this, as far as I can find, is Meet Missy! (a source of dubious validity, though I digress). According to Meet Missy!, the ‘Pratt’ Master is an incarnation who resulted from the unidentified Thirteenth Master attempting to regenerate an additional time.
 * That said, considering the ‘Decayed Pratt’ Master a distinctive pseudo-incarnation from the broader ‘Decayed Master’ is something that has been established.
 * According to Trail of the White Worm, the 'Decayed Pratt' Master purportedly partially healed himself using the Eye of Harmony. This would lead into his appearance in The Keeper of Traken as the 'Decayed Beevers' Master.
 * The claim from Meet Missy!, in isolation, could be a matter of explaining what 'Decayed Beevers' did before the events of The Deadly Assassin that required him to heal himself as he did.
 *  All valid sources indicate that the 'Delgado’ Master is NOT the Thirteenth Master. 
 * According to Masterful, the ‘Delgado’ Master is a different incarnation from the ‘Decayed’ Master and the ‘Decayed’ Master’s predecessor.
 * I would also note how, in all stories in which a stolen body regresses back to the decayed body of the ‘Thirteenth Master’, it’s Geoffrey Beevers and not Roger Delgado (or an impressionist) –but that’s neither here nor there.
 * According to Legacy of the Daleks, the 'Delgado' Master is an incarnation who is capable of regeneration (see above quotations) who is left grossly scarred and deformed by Susan Foreman --to the point in which regeneration would not "provide respite". This leads directly into his appearance as the 'Decayed Pratt' Master during the events of The Deadly Assassin.
 * According to The Two Masters, the 'Delgado' Master has regenerated at some previous point, leading to the 'Beevers' Master. This incarnation is left grossly scarred and deformed by the 'Reborn' Master and, due to having used all twelve of his previous regenerations, could not recover. This 'Decayed Beevers' Master would somehow become the 'Decayed Pratt' Master, leading into the events of The Deadly Assassin.
 * According to The Doorway to Hell, the 'Delgado' Master is an incarnation who is capable of regeneration . He is left scarred and deformed by the artron storm of a temporal circuit breaker and regenerates into an unknown incarnation. This is MEANT to lead into The Dead Travel Fast, which establishes that the regeneration did not heal him of his wounds due to the the temporal circuit breaker depleting him of artron energy --meaning that the resulting body was STILL decayed. This would eventually lead into the his appearance as the 'Decayed Pratt Master' seen in The Deadly Assassin.
 * This even extends to Unbound stories. Unbound stories, while not dispositive, are very compelling in this circumstance --as both appearances of Unbound Masters are explicit divergences that follow the 'Delgado' Master.
 * According to Sympathy for the Devil (an Unbound story whose divergence is The War Games), the 'Delgado' Master regenerates into the 'Kisgart' Master. This Unbound Master continues on in The Library in the Body, The Emporium at the End, The True Saviour of the Universe, Shockwave, He Who Wins, and Masterful.
 * During Aftershocks, Who Am I?, and Time Killers (a series of Unbound stories whose divergence is Genesis of the Daleks), the 'Healthy Beevers' Master is an incarnation that the Fourth Doctor had not met yet.
 * The ‘Delgado’ Master is the immediate predecessor to the ‘Decayed’ Master.
 * As stated above, The Dead Travel Fast is meant to pick up directly after the events of The Doorway to Hell.
 * While Legacy of the Daleks may not be clear about the numbering of the ‘Delgado’ Master (though I have disputed it above), it is VERY clear that he is the immediate predecessor to the ‘Decayed’ Master.
 * So, to make a PAIN-STAKINGLY LONG story short. The 'Decayed' Master is the Thirteenth Master (see The Deadly Assassin, The Keeper of Traken, Mastermind, Planet of Dust). All sources that take a position indicate that the 'Delgado' Master is capable of regeneration (see The Two Masters, The Doorway to Hell, Sympathy for the Devil, Who Am I, en etc.). The 'Delgado' Master is the immediate predecessor to the 'Decayed' Master (see Legacy of the Daleks, The Dead Travel Fast). Therefore, he is the Twelfth Master. NoNotTheMemes ☎  22:39, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

It's important to remember, in the case of all Masters, what we name their page must both easily identify the incarnation, make sense as an in-universe name, and make sense as a page name. I think this is trickiest for Delgado.

The name "Twelfth Master" does not perfectly satisfy these conditions, but of the possible names, I think it does the best. It's clear that Peter Pratt/Geoffrey Beevers is the Thirteenth Master, and Delgado comes before him. Even if there are some sources with varying interpretations on how this happens, almost all sources support Beevers as 13 and Delgado as his direct predecessor, hence 12. (And the annuals' accounts, which are not exactly clear in their phrasing, are two sources with a single line each versus many others with actual explanations and details in their stories.) As for the concern that this title taken as "twelfth incarnation to use the title "the Master" is incorrect, well I can think of many sources that say the Master used that title even before leaving Gallifrey, with Blood of the Time Lords saying that the Doctor and the Master took their titles as children— and even those stories where an early Master is using a different name, I'm not sure it precludes them from having already taken the title and simply using an alias, but that's getting into more speculative territory.

On the topic of aliases, I don't think "Keller Master", or any identities taken on by this incarnation, would be a good name for him. Unlike Harold Saxon, which is synonymous with John Simm's Master as a core part of his character and has been referenced in all his appearances, Emil Keller is a pseudonym the Master took in one story. It's hardly relevant to who this incarnation is and I think does a poor job at identifying him. It'd be like calling Ainley's incarnation "the Portreeve Master" or Simm "the Razor Master". Those personas are only relevant to one story.

I think what this Master is most associated with is, although he may not like it, his schemes against the Third Doctor and UNIT. The current phrasing used in some articles to refer to him is "UNIT era". This is a good descriptor from an in-universe perspective and to identify him to readers, but I don't think UNIT Era Master works well as a page title. So this may sound odd, but I kind of think the status quo would actually work well. "UNIT era" in articles/templates and the page at The Master (Terror of the Autons) go well enough together, particularly because Terror of the Autons is a UNIT story and the first appearance of not only this Master but the Master altogether. I know some people here would like every Master page to have a "unique" name, while others would prefer they all remain disambiguated. This isn't necessarily meant to be a compromise, but it works as one. If we had to go with a "unique" name, I would support Twelfth Master, but otherwise I dare to say it's actually fine as is. In any case, I do think the page merits its own section (be it in-universe or behind the scenes) explaining this incarnation's placement and the supported interpretation of "twelfth" as User:NoNotTheMemes did a good job at explaining above, while I was writing this. Chubby Potato ☎  23:03, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Very well spoken, Mr Potato. I agree completely with your conclusion that should "Twelfth Master" be rejected, the status quo is perfectly fine. – n8 (☎) 14:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I think I agree with Chubby in that I think we should maintain the Status Quo for now, until such a point where a suitable name is found. I don't think either of the two proposed names are any good, Twelfth is somewhat conjecture, doesn't fit with how we've named other pages and generally just a poor name, and Keller is a poor name and a reference to a somewhat obscure alias this incarnation uses in a few stories - I don't think either really aptly conveys which Master this is to the more casual users. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎  05:51, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I think UNIT Era Master is actually a completely fine name, and in my opinion the clearest. Sure it's three words instead of the usual two, but in my opinion that's fine. Cousin Ettolrhc ☎  07:45, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

In reply to NoNotTheMemes: To be clear, I agree that the Decayed Master is definitely the thirteenth incarnation, and that he and the Delgado Master should be covered by separate articles. But this is because stories generally treat them as being distinct iterations of the character, not necessarily because a successful Time Lord regeneration is what has occurred between them. The Tremas Master and the Bruce Master are also distinct iterations, but that does not make them the result of regenerations.

I'll grant that some passages in Legacy of the Daleks are ambiguous in isolation, but when read in the context of the TV series - specifically the Master's "I am now nearing the end of my twelfth regeneration" in The Keeper of Traken - the blunt fact that it shows Delgado being tissue-compressed and matter-transmuted directly into Crispy really only allows for Delgado to have been Thirteen.

Again, a Delgado Master who believes he can potentially regenerate, or at least that it's worth trying - even if the story goes so far as to show him beginning to glow - is exactly what we would expect if, as Meet Missy and CIA File Extracts say, he is the Thirteenth Master, refusing to accept death. If anything, the very concept of a failed thirteenth regeneration implies the possibility that a successful thirteenth regeneration (as distinct from an official, Gallifrey-granted "new regeneration cycle") actually can be achieved by a used-up Time Lord running on fumes, whether by luck, skill, or through some other technological/fantasical means. While no story has yet explored this idea directly, it's long been part of how writers and audiences view the series and its characters; consider [https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/gaiman-talks-12th-doctor-regeneration-limit-52305. this 2013 article] on Neil Gaiman's interpretation, which is that "the regeneration limit is a lot like the speed limit. You can break it, but things get a lot more dangerous if you do." This is the common understanding of the Delgado Master that Meet Missy is reflecting.

And while the roleplaying game provides a narrative excuse for players to choose which elements to accept, I want to highlight that the Delgado Master's being at the end of his regenerative cycle is not presented as being some particularly dubious factoid. We're told on one page that, prior to the Nestene invasion, "He suffered numerous setbacks, and used up his remaining regenerations during this period"; but on a later page, we're given a considerably more detailed story of how, after the events of Frontier in Space, the Master became trapped in a time corridor, where he "suffered terrible injuries, but he no longer had any regenerations to save him. His iron will kept him alive somehow, but his once handsome features literally began to decay..." It continues with an account of the Decayed Master's healing himself with the energies of the Eye of Harmony, explaining the Pratt/Beevers difference, but specifying that this was not a full regeneration; and all of this detailed, continuity-heavy elaboration remains firmly embedded within a narrative in which Delgado is the Thirteenth Master. People can scoff at this text's identification of the Monk with the Master, but it's still covered as a real possibility on The Master's early life, and rightly so - I'm just saying we should hold article titles (which are considerably more influential than a stray offbeat paragraph) to this same level of impartiality.

If you think that Meet Missy contradicts the TV show, I would say you've misread it. The statement "Time Lords are only build to regenerate twelve times, but I tried one more. Unfortunately, my face fell off and I was stuck like that" does not have to mean "I fully regenerated thirteen times, resulting in a decayed fourteenth incarnation"; it could also mean "I regenerated twelve times, then attempted another time but failed, further damaging my thirteenth body". The latter reading is completely consistent with "I am now nearing the end of my twelfth regeneration."

And since you've cited Mark Wright's stories, I'll quote his own comments for the benefit of anyone who hasn't seen them: "there may be another incarnation between the end of Doorway and the beginning of The Dead Travel Fast. Not for me to decide..." He clarifies that the idea they happen in close succession is only his "head canon", stresses that he wrote them years apart, and that they were not some tightly plotted duology as they might seem from a distance. These stories were consciously designed to be open to interpretation, with the author going so far as to float the specific reading that Delgado was the Eleventh Master.

Again, I'm not attached to any particular placement for Delgado. I just think the evidence for each particular answer rhizomes and fractalises in strange ways as we look more closely at it, and that ultimately it's not a fan wiki's place to make a ruling. While I still think Keller Master is ideal, I would also be OK with leaving him at The Master (Terror of the Autons) indefinitely. PintlessMan ☎  10:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Apologies if this is a really dumb question - I'm still relatively new to the Wiki - but is there a reason the Wiki doesn't use real names for distinction? Eg. we don't use "The Delgado Master" or "The Master (Roger Delgado incarnation)" - is there a policy reason for this? Most Masters have retained their individual actor throughout (with the exception of "Decayed" who has had 2 main actors). FractalDoctor ☎  15:12, 11 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, there is — we have an in-universe perspective (so we can't talk about "the Delgado Master" in the plain text of ordinary pages), and T:DAB sets some pretty clear parameters for what we can use as parenthetical disambiguation terms — by and large, debut story titles, not anything else. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 15:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying! Good to know. FractalDoctor ☎  15:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)