Howling:Moffat screwed up Silents

Moffat's introduction of the Silents (alien race) created the following troubling conflicts or unlikely scenarios: The Doctor has effectively caused a massive civil war on Earth for a reason that makes very little sense as there are plenty of parasite species everywhere. Moreover, this doesn't even account for minority cases like the blinds (who wouldn't see a sight of them but never made clear if they are also affected by Silents) or people with physical disabilities (would a guy with no limbs suddenly jump out from his wheel chair and start biting Silents, acting like some mad dog to a person viewing from another angle?). The repercussions are too great yet Moffat seem to downplay it too much that it hardly makes sense. Did Moffat screw this up bad? --222.166.181.177 14:10, November 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Both Amy and Rory have never watched the moon landing? Aged Canton's presence when Amy and Rory first met him clearly indicates that Amy and Rory are on a timeline in which the footage has been tempered, yet Amy didn't went berserk and killed Silents.
 * 2) Why kill the Silents? There are many more parasitic species on Earth ranging from insects to bacteria, and you may even consider house cats parasitic, unless the Doctor has oddly suddenly became a racist, the Silents massacre is completely out of character.
 * 3) Silents can shoot lightning and humans can't, so unless we're in America, where most people are armed, whenever people see Silents and go berserk, the Silent(s) will either run or fry the humans into ashes. A lot more people should die around the world because of this and with (2) in mind, the Doctor has either became extremely stupid or, for some odd reason, decided to risk human to eraticate a specific parasite.
 * 4) Timecode. What happened to timecode in the videos? When all recording and copies of the landing has timecode error and the frames don't add up, isn't it obvious?
 * 5) When a person tries to kill a Silent, wouldn't the people around him who didn't see the Silent think the person went mad? Especially considering that the person will have amnesia afterward.
 * 6) Silents in countries with no television transmission at that time or the next few years afterward would have prevented the import of television or recordings. Plenty of countries except the States and the UK wouldn't have television transmissions or common playback devices at that time period. Many countries in Africa would have declared war on other parts of the world under the Silents' influence in an attempt to exterminate the hypnotized humans with Silent killing tendency.
 * 7) The poor who couldn't afford television would rebel against the rich and the government for the same reason in (6). Earth's humans would end up with a massive scale war divided by people hypnotized by the video and those who didn't until one party is all killed or the Silents effectively no longer on Earth.
 * 8) Bullets should have been flying everywhere in the states the moment the footage was shown, people would have been scared by this and a lot of innocent people would have been killed by accidents or the Silents.

Parts of the Silence rebellion are a bit unlikely, but all of your points can be explained. Blind people could still hear the Silence, but wouldn't kill them because they couldn't see them. People in wheel chairs would shoot the Silence if they had a gun or stab them or something if they are close enough, but they are only going to kill them in ways that they are capable of doing so. If a handicapped person is incapable of killing a Silence, they will not try.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:02, November 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The few times that Amy and Rory saw the Silence, they had very little opportunity to attack before they forgot about them again. In the scene in the bathroom, Amy may have felt some desire to kill the Silence, but she was able to exercise self control having encountered aliens before, and knew that taking a photo and gathering intel on the Silence would help lead to their destruction.
 * 2) This is just speculation, but maybe the Doctor and friends decided to kill the Silence because they've seen the moon landing footage before. The Doctor saw it a few times when he was stranded in the 60s with Martha (and he'd probably seen it before anyway), so he subconsciously wanted to kill the Silence causing him to manipulate the Silence into creating the message in the first place. Even so, the Silence are a bit more manipulative than your average parasite. Humans can't even remember seeing them, and they are controlling every aspect of humanity, effectively turning all humans into slaves. We all know that the Doctor isn't a huge fan of slavery, and likely felt that humans were better off without the Silence controlling them.
 * 3) First of all, I live in America and I don't know anyone who carries a gun around with them, but you still have a point. Before the moon landing, the Silence only killed people who were either a threat to them, or who were bugging them while they were using the bathroom. There were few enough mysterious deaths that nobody noticed. The Silence don't want humanity to realise that there are countless mysterious deaths, and there lightning attack is pretty slow and inneffective. The Doctor and River were able to destroy a whole rooom full of Silence and noone was hit by the lightning. The Doctor didn't even have a real weapon. They may have killed a few, but they would have been outnumbered and died before they could do much damage.
 * 4) This one's really a minor error. The timecode probably includes the bit with the Silence, and people just assume that nothing particularly interesting happenned in those couple of seconds.
 * 5) If you were able to tell that somebody was beating a Silent to death, you would have to see the Silence. Otherwise it would look like they just walked across the room for no reason. The only ones who would look crazy would be the ones with the guns and, as you said, most people don't carry guns around with them.
 * 6) Many people without televisions wouldn't have tried to kill the Silence. Still, many people would have seen it on other's televisions, or listened to it on the radio. Also, don't forget about all those Magpie TVs that are floating around. Presumably the people who would have been involved with importing the TVs were conditioned to kill the Silence anyway. The Silence probably didn't consider it worth it to drive the whole planet into war. There real purpose on Earth was just to hide Melody for a while, so they probably decided it would be more efficient to lie low for a while than to cause a huge war.
 * 7) Same as (6). It just wouldn't be worth it for the Silence.
 * 8) Guns are really only popular in the crazy redneck areas and the South in America. People all over the country do own guns, but at most there would have been a few isolated incidents with people being wrongly accused of murder. Still, even in places like Texas, bullets wouldn't be flying everywhere. People would be shooting the Silence. That means that people are only shooting when they see a Silence, and for the most part the bullets would hit the Silence and people would forget about it.

This makes absolutely no sense, the subliminal message was to kill Silents on sight, not try to kill Silents if you can and don't bother if you can't or devise a plan to commit genocide on the Silents. Saying Amy can fight it with sheer will power is like saying the subliminal message never really fully worked in the first place. The Silents will go extinct if they didn't do something, so if this still isn't worth it for them to take action, I don't know what will. You obviously have no idea how many people outside of US and UK would not own a television set even by mid 70s. The timecode doesn't add up isn't a simple matter of people thinking a few seconds aren't interesting, the footage is used over and over again, television editors, etc will be jogging frame by frame, the timecode will jump in every single copy of the recording. To say that people would either not notice other people killing silents or would be involved is the same as saying that everyone would have seen the silent in the picnic and not Amy alone. --222.166.181.160 22:48, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Well, if Amy had gotten up and attacked the Silence instead of just acting a bit weird, everyone would have noticed the Silence at the picnic. It's possible that River and the Doctor both knew exactly what she was talking about, but decided not to comment since they knew what had to happen. The subliminal message isn't mind control- it doesn't force you to do anything. If you see a Silence, then you're going to think "wow, I should really kill this thing on sight." If you're unable to do so, then you'll decide not to. If you see it shoot lightning out of its hand, and you have a friend who you know is good at stopping alien invasions, you can decide "Nah. As much as I want to kill this thing on sight, I'll just take a picture and show it to the Doctor later." The Doctor could have interpreted the phrase to mean that he should literally kill them all, which he attempted to accomplish by planting the suggestion in the first place. Even if only a handful of people in the entire world owned televisions and radios it wouldn't matter. In the short term, yes the Silence would be fine. However, a couple of decades later, when everyone owns a tv, and then even later when the internet is big, almost everyone will see it and will kill the Silence. Since their plans don't actually involve ruling the Earth, and they've already got that space suit they wanted, it's really more practical for them to just lay low and avoid humans instead of coming up with complicated plans to prevent the spread of television. Maybe there were some instances where people noticed other people killing Silence, where they somehow didn't see the Silence, and thought that they were crazy. There were already people who had gone due to the Silence, so a few more wouldn't make a huge difference. In the vast majority of cases though, if you are able to see that someone is attacking something you will be able to see what they are attacking. As for the timecode-maybe in the Whoniverse it's just considered one of those mysterious things. Nobody knows why it doesn't make sense since they forget whenever they find out, but it's not a big deal and they've just given up trying to figure it out.Icecreamdif talk to me 00:52, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

The message was, "You should kill us all on sight." "Should" not "will" or "must", so Icecreamdif is quite right that it won't (or wont't usually) produce a major conflict if killing is impossible or impractical at the time.

The first point about the timecode is that most people wouldn't be paying any attention to it, anyway. The second point is that the "memory-proof" nature of the Silents wouldn't work at all well unless it caused people to overlook inconsistencies. There are different types of forgetting. If you go into a shop (say) to buy something but can't remember what it was you intended to buy, you know there's something you've forgotten. On the other hand, if you agree to make a phone call but forget to do so, you may well not even be aware of having forgotten anything -- at least until someone (like the person you should have called) or something (like a note saying, "Phone Fred") reminds you. With the Silents, people forget so completely they're unaware of having forgotten. The exception, as in the case of the Doctor and his friends, is where they've reasoned out (in the absence of any Silents) that there must be something they've forgotten and then adopt measures to draw their attention to it when it happens again. The effect of the Silents operates similarly to hypnotism, which means a victim's subconscious is actively steering his/her mind away from possible reminders; it isn't a purely passive process. --89.241.69.214 23:40, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Also, even videos and pictures of the silence can eventually be erased, it would just take a while. So eventually that footage of the silence would disappear, and only the generation that first saw the silence in the moon landings would be aware of the order. The time code would eventually even out. 94.72.209.209talk to me 16:13, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

The use of "should" is not just a suggestion. It is a clear order phrased in the subjunctive. "Should you see us, kill us." Boblipton talk to me 00:58, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if it was meant to be taken that way the fact that is that since there is discussion about it not everyone would have interpreted it that way. Also out of the people who did interpret it as a suggestion doesn't mean they would carry it out, many people act against what they think they should do, so even if they thought they should kill the Silents doesn't guarantee they would. The Light6 talk to me 01:50, November 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yah, in Blighty where the subjunctive has been weakened. Sorry if that sounds slighting, but it's a fact of the way the two major dialects have evolved. Boblipton talk to me 02:05, November 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Since we're being grammatical, the subjunctive "may be used for subjective, doubtful, hypothetical, or grammatically subordinate statements or questions" (from Dictionary.com). That leaves plenty of "wriggle room" for people. Anyway, Boblipton's rephrasing doesn't have the same meaning as the original. "Should you see us, kill us," means "Kill us if [or whenever] you see us." The original, "You should kill us all on sight," in its context meant, "It is in your best interests to kill us all on sight," and isn't a command at all. Taken out of its context (as it was, once the Doctor had inserted it into the Apollo 11 footage), it does sound like an instruction but it's still not a strong command. Nobody in the army (for example) would say, "You should open fire." They'd say, "Open fire!" One's advice, the other's an order. It's not only in British English that the subjunctive is weak, although the difference may be greater in British English. --89.241.69.17 05:29, November 12, 2011 (UTC)h


 * all i wanna know is that if humanity starts killing all the silents the what happens to the bodys? also the dea of "you should Kill us all on sight" is very good becuse i am a very against violence and if i was say hypnotysed into thinking i should kill all people with purple hair (using purple as an atempt to not be racist) i would not nessiseraly do it i may think i should but i may not for instance people think they should not steal yet they do it any way it is a sort of desision do i do it or not and back to the amy/rory not attacking silents i for one have not watched the moon landing and to be hounest aint that boverd so they could just be the same Whooligist talk to me 01:02, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Most people have seen the clip at some point in their lives. I assume that even you saw it when you were watching the episode. Anyway, everyone would forget about the Silence's bodies as soon as they saw them, so they would just be left around to decompose, unless other Silence decided to dispose of their own dead.Icecreamdif talk to me 07:21, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Also we don't know how many Silence there were. It could just have been one shipful. For all we know the gencide of the Silence could have been a simple job. Besides there are other weapons around. Who said you can't set upon them with Axes or Machetes? 178.78.81.210talk to me 13:52, January 3, 2012 (UTC) (I wrote this ages ago and forgot to sign it).

We don't, of course, know how many Silence there were but the Doctor and his companions encountered quite a large number of them in a fairly short time. That suggests more than "one shipful" -- or a pretty large ship.

Icecreamdif: You say, "everyone would forget about the Silence's bodies as soon as they saw them" but people forget when they look away, not while they're looking at the Silents. Is it not quite possible that people might clear up the corpses and then forget they'd done so? --2.96.26.35talk to me 15:06, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

Sure. That's very possible. They would be very confused afterwards, but it isn't unlikely.Icecreamdif talk to me 18:13, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

[I was reading up on this and this bit I'm about to say might be for a whole other discussion. All I have an opinion on is the assumption of how time works and how it relates to humans feeling the need to kill the Silence. I've always known Time in Doctor Who to... all be happneing at once. I'm not good at explaining how I see it. Anyway, Amy, Rory, River, and the Doctor all experienced the video and moon landing at that present point in time. If I understand Time correctly, then Amy had never seen that video in the 2000's. It seems to be that the things happening around the moon landing were not "fixed" points in time, therefore, they could be altered and that is exactly what happened. To me, Amy would have never felt the need to kill the Silence in the bathroom because at that point, she had never seen it. I see it now as Time changing and now everyone will see it for a quick second in videos of the landing. Amy, however, still saw it first in 1969 with the Doctor, not when she originally watched a moon landing video. It's all under the assumption she's seen a video in her past when growing up or something too.}

If I understand you correctly, then you are saying that time can be rewritten. When Amy saw the moon landing video growing up, there was no clip of a Silence in it, because she and the Doctor hadn't travelled back in time to put it there yet. Is that basically what you're saying? If so, then it is certainly possible. It is probably not a fixed point. However, keep in mind, that the events of those episodes do effect earlier episodes, particulaly regarding River's childhood, and Canton's arrival in 2011 suggests that the events of those episodes were always meant to happen. Of course, it's possible that they happenned differently befoee, or something.Icecreamdif talk to me 07:01, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

[That is exactly what I am saying. For the other comments, "wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff". I only pretend to know a little. In my head it works out some way that it all makes sense. Canton would have seen the video already when the Doctor was shot, therefore it could be said that the video with the Silence had already been broadcast, but in my mind, it could not have. Supposedly Time isn't cause and effect, and I think I get that slightly. I think I'm right in this thinking. Yes, Canton was there and him being there, one could assume that ll was meant to happen. But the Doctor planned the meeting and planted 1969 in everyone's head. The Doctor could have easily told Canton what was up and therefore Canton knew his past would be seeing the group, but he himself would not be anymore. I don't have much to say for River's part other than maybe she wasn't that important in relation to the Silence, and I hope by saying that I didn't miss something big int he episode.}

Don't forget to sign your comments by adding four ~s. Anyway, it wasn't just Canton. The fact that the Doctor knew that space 1969 was important meant that he had already been there. The fact that River had regenerated into the Alex Kingston version meant that Amy had shot her space suit. Time works very strangely and inconsistently in the Doctor Who Universe. Sometimes, as you say, time can be rewritten, and events that the Doctor manipulates haven't happenned yet until the Doctor manipulates them. Sometimes, events have already happenned a certain way, but the Doctor can change them. And, sometimes events have already happenned a certain way and cannot be changed. Based on the whole opening scene in Utah, I think we really do have to assume that the Doctor was "destined" to alter the recording, and any recordings in 2011 would have already had the Silence bit added in.Icecreamdif talk to me 07:49, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

"Time works very strangely and inconsistently in the Doctor Who Universe": Depends on your point of view. From an out-of-universe perspective, it consistently works the way the story needs it to. From an in-universe perspective, it seems inconsistent to the layman (almost everyone) but that doesn't need to mean it is inconsistent. In a field I've some experience of, software, there are some things laymen think will be very difficult or impossible to do that are, in fact, quite easy; there are other things that laymen think will be easy that are actually major problems or are effectively impossible. That's one reason big IT projects, especially big government IT projects, so often go badly wrong: the people commissioning the software don't understand how it works, demand what they fondly imagine is an easy change and won't allocate anything remotely like enough time or resources to making the change -- so it doesn't work. In-universe, time seems to be like that, too: baffling if you don't understand how it actually works (which we don't); obvious if you do (which the Doctor does -- usually). OK, that's a rationalisation of the real situation (the out-of-universe perspective) but it's an acceptable rationalisation because there are plenty of things in the real world that are like that. From experience, I know that trying to explain why something some civil servant thinks will be quick and easy will actually take thousands of programmer-hours is a nightmare and often comes down to saying: Spend four or five years studying the subject, then spend another decade or two getting experience of how it works and then you'll understand; otherwise, just take my word for it! No wonder the Doctor so often says, "I'll explain later," and then doesn't. --89.241.68.116talk to me 09:29, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

If the Doctor only said that regarding time, then I wouldn't mind. Anyway, we know that in-universe, time follows certain laws and rules, so some people like the Doctor are obviously able to figure it out. However we, and most of the universe(including the writers), are layman, and whichever way we look at it it is going to seem strange and inconsistent.Icecreamdif talk to me 17:07, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

On the subject of the Doctor being unreasonable to the silents, I think the paradox theory Icecreamdif made about the Doctor having already seen the footage his future self had tampered with makes the most sense. But since all paradoxes have to start somewhere, presumably the fight against the silence got so out of hand that the doctor had to massacre them as a last resort. Of course when that happened that must have started the paradox. The doctor massacring the silence a lot earlier in the timeline could potentially have saved many lives. 94.72.209.209talk to me 16:13, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Paradoxes don't always have to start somewhere. It really depends how the laws of time are working on a given day of the week. The entire premise of Blink, for example, depends on a paradox with no beginning. That's why it's a paradox.Icecreamdif talk to me 08:39, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Some Paradoxes, yes, but the one in TIA/DOTM probably started somewhere. It's possible the Weeping Angels in B with their feeding off potential days ability affected that part of the timeline and allowed a paradox to occur without being provoked. 94.72.209.160talk to me 23:19, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe. If Gallifrey hadn't been destroyed then perhaps I'd go attend the Academy and learn precisely how time and paradoxes work, but as it is, none of us can truly understand the laws of time. The paradox may have had a beginning, or it may not have, or I may have guessed wrong and its not really a paradox. We'll probably never get a real answer. Icecreamdif talk to me 08:44, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Well the Doctor so far as I know did see the moon landings, and come to think of it I believe he did in Blink. So he will have seen the message. Of course maybe the Doctor was unaffected by the hypnosis and merely used the massacre thing to scare the Silence from the planet. That makes sense I suppose. 94.72.209.160talk to me 13:38, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Also on the problem number 1 (why Amy didn't kill the silents) that was explained in Day of the Moon (but not directly). The Doctor said that eventually even photos and other depictions of the Silence eventually managed to erase themselves like memories did. So if Amy and Rory yad seen the moon landings (and we don't know that they did) then the footage of the silence would have erased itselfby the time they got chance to watch it. One problem no-one has mentioned yet - Amy noticed the silents ability to erase memories due to encounters with Joy. Surely at on point two human will have seen a silent and one of tgem will have worked out about the memory thing. Won't they too, have drawn or photographed a silent, and had evidence of their existence? Or were people who did this disintegrated on the spot? 94.72.209.160talk to me 13:46, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

well, it's not like they would be able to remember the picture after it's taken. amy didn't at first. and one would have to look away to draw a silent, so one would forget them before anything is drawn. Imamadmad talk to me 03:01, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well OK, maybe not draw, but if someone had set up a camera to take a picture and they saw a Silent, they could photograph it, then they'd forget about it, then they'd develop it, saw the Silent, ran off to tell someone, forgotten what they were doing, gone back inside, seen the photo, gone to tell someone, forget what they did, repeat this a few times and they'd eventually realise that the memory thing was effecting them, just like Amy, Rory and the Doctor did, and perhaps find a way to combat the memory-loss thing. We know it's possible to do this, because by the end of Day of the Moon, the Doctor, River, Amy and Rory seem completely immune to the silences powers. Of course chancesnare the Silent would think "this guy's going to cause us trouble" and zap them with a few million volts to make sure that didn't happen. 94.72.209.160talk to me 11:59, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well, keep in mind that this was the 60s, before everyone carried a camera around in their pocket with them. The Silence would just have to stay away from people who were taking pictures. That particular Silence may not have even known that camera phones would one day be developed, so didn't realize that Amy had taken a picture of him.Icecreamdif talk to me 20:18, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well to be honest it was only an example, but people could at least make an attempt to combat the forgetting thing. We know it's possible - a few conspiracy theorists managed it because they used the Silence as a basis for the belief in The Men in Black. 94.72.209.160talk to me 21:57, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Did they use "the Silence as a basis for the belief in the Men in Black"? Didn't they use the Men in Black as a basis for the belief in the Men in Black? The MIB (working for the Alliance of Shades) are in the Whoniverse, too. --78.146.177.197talk to me 23:03, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Who's to say that the Silence weren't the basis for the men in black and the men in black weren't the basis for the Alliance of Shades? Anyway, if someone heard about the men in black and saw a silent, they might assume it's the same thing and from then on the conspiracy might spark a few memories every time they heard it. 94.72.209.160talk to me 00:03, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

On problem 6, we don't know if the Silence had been located worldwide. We know they were in 1600s England, (The Gunpowder Plot) and we know they were in 1900s America, (TIA/DOTM) but we can't confirm they went anywhere else. My personal theory is that the Silence landed their ship in America God knows how long ago, knew they needed Humans to live there so they could hypnotise them in order to make their plan work, went to England and hypnotised more people to go to America, and after America was inhabited and had expanded, they were able to give the order for the Astronaut suit. Once the death order was broadcast, the Silence in America, and possibly a few still in England, may have attempted to leave the country but got caught trying to do so. I doubt there ability to "jump" between places instantly meant they could easily go overseas. 178.78.81.210talk to me 13:52, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Problem 3: The Silence lightning power isn't that effective. It takes about ten seconds to reach full power and the aim isn't great. They might take out the odd few people but pretty soon mobs of angry humans would be upon them. Which brings me to another question. Why am I holding an axe that's covered in blood? 87.102.117.106talk to me 19:26, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

the question is, why would you have an axe near your computer? wich leads to a more practical question, how would people kill the silence on sight when most people don't carry weapons around with them? lets say i saw a silent. since i have no weapons or anything i can use as a weapon anywhere near me, would i try to strangle the silent or something? Imamadmad talk to me 01:51, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Be sure to let us know what you did. Boblipton talk to me 02:07, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Not having anything to use as a weapon nearby is pretty rare. The 2nd Doctor once came up with a clever plan (I think for dealing with a yeti): "Bung a rock at it." In cities, there's often the option of shoving the thing in front of a bus or lorry (truck). Not everyone would think of such things in time to do them, of course, but quite a few would. --78.146.183.1talk to me 02:10, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

ok, outside there are many things that could be used as weapons, but what about someone inside sitting at their computer desk or reading in bed or eating cerial etc. that greatly reduces the number of things to be used as weapons. Imamadmad talk to me 02:19, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

My throwing axe is in my bedroom, hanging on the wall. Sitting here by the computer, I have butane lighters, pencils and pens, letter openers, quarry tiles that I use as coasters and a glass that can be broken so the shards can be used as a blade. Plus I could pick up the computer and toss it at the monster. That is, of course, assuming that my training in judo and boxing -- a few decades old, but still -- don't kick in. Fifteen feet away is my kitchen, with all sorts of cutlery and heavy pots to throw -- I like cast iron. In the closet by the front door are umbrellas, a quarter staff, a couple of brass-headed walking stick and my fencing foil --- and I trained under Martinez, so I was trained to fight as if it was a real duel, and if you think a lunge won't penetrate skin because of a button, then you don't know why fencers wear masks and heavy canvas. Plus there are plenty of doors to slam on the damned thing. I'm in a third floor apartment. I've got overfilled, seven-foot-high bookcases to tip over on it and plenty of windows to shove it out of. None of us in this building like the woman who owns the house next door and if a memory proof alien gets dumped in her back yard, who's going to notice? You don't need to be a weird alien I have been post-hypnotically ordered to kill. I'm a New Yorker. This is my personal space. Boblipton talk to me 03:12, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I used to know a New Yorker. She was here (St. Andrews, Fife) as a student and was the nearest thing I've met to a real-life Ace, so your point is taken. --89.241.73.88talk to me 05:16, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

maybe new yorkers are an exeption. but the most deadly thing i have near me, apart from my computer who's wires would take too long to pull out to throw, would be a pen, and to get close enough to stab the silent with a pen means you probably would have already been electrocuted. also, for some of those things you mentioned boblipton would require you to look away from the silent to get, eg to get to your kitchen and pull out your pots, to get your axe off the wall etc, in which time you would have forgotten about the silent. and also, if you got close enough to use your self defensive moves then zap the silent would kill you. and, why have you got so much potential weaponry just lying about the place? Imamadmad talk to me 07:07, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

The looking away point is good. Getting zapped might not happen, however. As pointed out a few times, the zapping isn't instant; a Silent takes a while to build up enough charge. If you were fast enough, you could get it before it got you. --89.241.73.88talk to me 08:11, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I used to be a New Yorker, and I would definetly have to agree with Boblipton. As for the looking away thing, it isn't that big a problem. A person could see a Silence, look away to grab a knife from the kitchen, have no idea why they just picked up this knife, turn around, see the Silence, and kill it. I'm guessing that the Silence went into hiding, and possibly left the planet, shortly after the massacre began, so it probably wasn't a big problem for a very long time anyway.Icecreamdif talk to me 09:55, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

The message didn't tell people they MUST kill on sight, it said they SHOULD kill on sight, meaning you would only kill a Silent you saw if it was rational to do so. For instance, someone eating cereal wouldn't attack the Silence with a spoon, (unless they were a real badass), but someone who'd just gone to chop down a tree who saw a Silent would chop it's head off with an axe. Which brings me to another question. Why am I holding a spoon that's covered in blood? 87.102.117.106talk to me 11:03, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you would forget about the blood once you looked away from the spoon. If so, then I hope that you don't continue to eat your cereal while you're not looking at the spoon.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:09, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Blood? What blood? I finished that cereal ages ago. It did taste weird though. Anyway on the subject of the Silent zapping power, what if you were with a Silent in the middle of a forest? There are no nearby electrical appliances, so the Silent has no sources of power or no defense. What I'm saying is if there are no sources of power nearby the Silent might not even pose a threat, and you probably could attack it with a spoon. That is unless the Silence can defend themselves physically, but they don't seem to know karate or anything. 87.102.117.106talk to me 22:32, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

So if somebody is eating cereal in the middle of the woods then they're all set. The Silence are physically bigger than most humans, so they might stand a chance in a fight. Especially since all that they have to do is get out of the human's eye sight and they'll be safe.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:40, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you'd be a lot better off if you were chopping down a tree in the woods, but anyone eating cereal still has a relatively effective weapon. Anyway, the Silence probably took the hint and left Earth shortly after the message was broadcast, allowing humanity to eat it's cereal in peace. 87.102.117.106talk to me 11:05, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

except only a very small fraction of human could have watched it at that time period. It was probably more sensible to hypnotise the rest of humanity into thinking the humans who had access to TV/playback device were people trying to revive Nazism. --222.166.181.207talk to me 14:17, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I covered this earlier on, but you obviously never read it, so I'll repaste it below:

On problem 6, we don't know if the Silence had been located worldwide. We know they were in 1600s England, (The Gunpowder Plot) and we know they were in 1900s America, (TIA/DOTM) but we can't confirm they went anywhere else. My personal theory is that the Silence landed their ship in America God knows how long ago, knew they needed Humans to live there so they could hypnotise them in order to make their plan work, went to England and hypnotised more people to go to America, and after America was inhabited and had expanded, they were able to give the order for the Astronaut suit. Once the death order was broadcast, the Silence in America, and possibly a few still in England, may have attempted to leave the country but got caught trying to do so. I doubt there ability to "jump" between places instantly meant they could easily go overseas. 178.78.81.210talk to me 13:52, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

(This was me but my number changed). 87.102.117.106talk to me 16:02, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Is it really relevant though? Silents are not immobile; walking down to Mexico is not a huge challenge...

Moreover, if the time of fire and wheel only meant either European or American first use of wheel, then they would have been much later than what we originally anticipated. I think it is more important what fire and wheel means; wheels obviously were invented much later than fire, and different depending on different geographical location; moreover fire and wheel could also figuratively meant trains, that would push Silents even later in our history. Natives tribes in North America that hasn't adopted modern still don't have wheels so an American-origin is a bit iffy...--222.166.181.86talk to me 16:52, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Given that the Silents "borrow" technology from others, the best place to look for them in any given era is wherever the technology is most advanced. As pointed out, they can move around. --89.242.74.218talk to me 16:58, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

"The Silents are not immobile; waking down to Mexico is not a huge challenge" I think it makes it a little bit harder when an entire country has been ordered to kill you on sight, especially in America (some parts of it, anyway). 87.102.117.106talk to me 17:19, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

True -- and some of those parts are on the route to Mexico. --89.242.74.218talk to me 17:43, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

But they are unlikely to have first landed in the States due to the fire and wheel statement as native Americans never had wheels; so the American-origin is not really sensible. Silents were more than likely to also be in some other nation. --222.166.181.112talk to me 18:21, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'd expect only in the more advanced countries. And most likely a good selection of the population of these countries will have seen the moon landing. 87.102.117.106talk to me 18:38, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

The native Americans did have the wheel. They just never developed it as more than a toy because when you're shlepping something up the Andes, the wheel isn't much good, particularly if you don't have a draft animal. Boblipton talk to me 20:38, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Considering how easy it makes it for things to roll back down again, if you're shlepping something up the Andes, the wheel could seem like a serious liability! --2.101.62.55talk to me 20:52, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

It would be very awkward if the age of fire and wheel refers to toy wheels and not anything practical.--222.166.181.209talk to me 21:17, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Who said it had to be the Native Americans the Silence saw creating wheels? They could have seen white settlers with their wagons. Or as I mentioned before people in 1600s England. It would make perfect sense for the Silence to have stayed pretty much in England and America. 87.102.117.106talk to me 23:10, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the Aztecs found the wheel that the Doctor made for his pulley, and started using wheels much earlier than they did in real life.Icecreamdif talk to me 04:09, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I still very much doubt that the Silence inhabited countries where there was no TV during the 1960s. 87.102.117.106talk to me 19:41, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Exactly - the Silence always went to the most developed places. 87.102.94.3talk to me 15:27, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

We don't know that for certain but it seems most likely considering the Silence were waiting to see who could get the technology for the astronaut suit first. Considering that America already had space technology the Silence would expect them to be the unwilling donors. 94.72.237.220talk to me 13:37, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

They may have hedged their bets by having a significant presence in the USSR (as it then was), too. After all, it was the Soviets who first got a man into space. If the Silents wanted to develop the technology as fast as possible and they knew humans (as they obviously did), organising a race would be the best way to go about it. Then all they'd need to do would be to grab the technology from whichever side first got far enough along. --89.241.74.254talk to me 14:05, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they had television in the Soviet Union. Boblipton talk to me 14:30, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

However will the Soviets have seen the Moon Landing? Because if so that causes a problem. The subliminal message with the Silent might not have been translated. So any Silents in Russia will not have been attacked. Perhaps the ones still surviving in 2011 had been in Russia at the time, and waited there until the message had lost its effect on people, before returning to America to see the Doctor's death. 94.72.237.220talk to me 14:43, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

That would probably be a problem to any non-English speakers. The Doctor was using some future technology apart from Amy's phone to set the whole thing up, so maybe it had a translation device in it.Icecreamdif talk to me 22:10, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

from memory, just about all humans who we hear the silence communicating to using language had been in the tardis and had the tardis' translation circuits working on them. this could mean that the silence don't actually speak english but whatever language they do speak is still compatible with the human subconcious, meaning the subliminal messages they give out could be understood by the minds of people no matter what languages they speak. Imamadmad talk to me 23:43, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Well they don't usually use their mouths to talk like humans do, so they may have been communicating telepathically. Of course, that would be a bit difficult to translate over TV.Icecreamdif talk to me 00:39, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Might be a bit difficult to record, too, even with a 2011-vintage mobile phone. --89.241.77.125talk to me 08:00, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

There were probably English speakers in Russia who understood the order. If they saw a Silent, they might convince others to help take it down. 94.72.237.220talk to me 21:39, January 29, 2012 (UT

well the tardis could of translated it? it pretty simple Whooligist talk to me 21:56, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Why would the TARDIS translate something to every human in all points of time? You are not even making sense. A lot of the original points still stand unless the Doctor is inconsiderate and think it's okay to let some humans die from the Silents' resistance...--15:25, March 7, 2012 (UTC)222.166.181.4talk to me 15:25, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if this was addressed already, I skimmed the page a bit.. but the biggest problem I have is with the assumption that people take this thing's word as law. There are humans out there who advocate voluntary genocide of the entire species who would suggest killing any other human on sight. There are dozens of speeches that could be quote-mined to make it appear that this one Silent was asking for something it never actually was (which is somewhat what happened here). And while video editing obviously wasn't as common back then, my first thought would be "some prankster in a mask hacked the signal" or "this is a crazy rogue who does not represent the rest of his species," not "this is an honest suggestion for a call to arms straight from the horse's mouth." Dazuro talk to me 18:07, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

222: The Doctor wasn't necessarily using the footage to massacre the Silence, he was using it to deter them from imterfering with humans. A few Silents will have been killed, but many more will have legged it when they realised humanity had turned against them. Where they went, nobody knows. But I'm sure they were able to leave Earth easily enough if they wished. Also the Doctor could have already seen the message and created it to close the paradox once he was immune to the the Silent memory wiping ability. 94.72.226.244talk to me 19:53, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

94, "once he was immune to the the Silent memory wiping ability": The Doctor has been shown not to be immune to this. He could and did partially overcome it by such means as the tally-marks on the arm but he was still affected by it, as we saw in the scene with Churchill, just before "Pond, Amelia Pond" showed up, in The Wedding of River Song. Nevertheless, it's true enough that the Silents could have and ought to have done a runner, rather than staying on Earth to be wiped out. Indeed, the Doctor specifically said that what he'd done was to get the humans to "kick the Silence off their planet", not to get the humans to wipe them out. --89.241.73.38talk to me 20:56, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

But 89 and 94, other than the Silents that were killed as we have already seen, the Doctor is also risking the humans, most of them would be unarmed and at least some would die like the old woman in the washroom, and a part of them unexposed to the message would be potentially used to start a resistance through hypnosis. From what we have seen up to that point, the Silents were more humane to human than how humans treated the Oods...this is really not the Doctor we know. The Doctor may just as well kill all humans since the Silents were merely parasitic and humans, on the other hand, do keep animals and other species as slaves. Moreover, the plan just simply doesn't work, yes, the Americans have guns but the States are not the entire world. The only thing this does is drive Silents away from countries that had TV, and that's it...The timecode problem is still unresolved...every single time any record of the landing is played the timecode and duration would never add up. What happens when you jog the video frame-by-frame as video editors would be required to do so at some point, which would certainly ensure the video editor to discover what's going on. A large number of video editors in the world now essentially has images of a Silent accessible. Colour grading technicians would be seeing these frame by frame images for extensive amount of time and remember them each time he looks back onto the screen and would realize at some point. My main problem with the Silents isn't even these technical stuffs but the idea that the Doctor effectively manipulated a population of largely unarmed humans to wage war on another lightning-bolt throwing species in a foolish way with a rationale that was certainly not consistent with the Doctor's personality and without any regard that any members of any of the species would be killed and the parasitic species can also hypnotize another population with no TV to start a civil war among mankind with little effort is just horrible.

As for Dazuro, I have no idea what he/she is talking about at all...unless he/she never watched the episode...--222.166.181.161talk to me 21:30, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

89: at the end of Day of the Moon the Doctor is able to carry on talking to the Silents even when not looking at them. And the fact he knows the relevance of the tally marks suggests to a certain extent he has developed at least some ability to remember the Silence. Maybe not individual ones, but he definitely had knowledgde of the species as a whole. 94.72.226.244talk to me 23:18, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

94: River, Amy and Rory knew the relevance of the tally marks, too. They (and Canton) also had knowledgde of the species as a whole. None of that indicates immunity to the memory-wiping ability. To borrow terminology from software, the Doctor hasn't fixed the bug, he's developed a workaround. He and those who know enough to make use of the workaround still forget the Silents. The difference now is that they know they're forgetting them. To some extent, I think this is just a difference in terminology and we both understand the same about how the thing works. Terminology does matter, however, and someone with immunity to the memory-wiping ability wouldn't forget the individual Silents at all. It'd be something like having an inbuilt eyedrive, without the electrocution hazard.

222: "The idea that the Doctor effectively manipulated a population of largely unarmed humans to wage war on another lightning-bolt throwing species" has been dealt with before. The point has been made, several times by several contributors, that a human without the means to kill a Silent on sight isn't going to try. It has also been noted, again several times by several contributors, that the lightning-bolt throwing is slow. An armed human is going to be much faster (in the great majority of cases, at least) than a Silent who's relying on lightning-bolt throwing. Most of the rest of your criticism is based (or seems to be, anyway) on supposition about what's going to happen but hasn't been shown to have happened or even been hinted at. How do the Silents go about "hypnotiz[ing] another population with no TV to start a civil war among mankind"? Please note, you said "with no TV" -- with no medium available for mass hypnotism of a population. Either the population can be affected en masse, in which case it'll be affected by the Doctor's message, or it can't be affected en masse, in which case it can't be made to wage war at the behest of the Silents. --89.241.75.222talk to me 02:58, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

89, but that's just an assumption, there's nothing within the show that remotely suggests that Silents's hypnotism would act only if the condition permits. It's also quite irrational for it to be that way, as even an armed human would not be guaranteed to be able to kill them just like someone holding a gun isn't necessarily able to kill anyone. I also said specifically unarmed humans which makes up most of the world's population. Moreover, it would be very odd for the Doctor to decide to not care about the "minority" (Silents, armed humans who would be killed, or unarmed humans) and actively cause a conflict in an otherwise peaceful situation. The Silents did say that they have here since the age of fire and wheel, even though that could cover a huge period and geographical location, it would be pretty meaningless to assume the time of fire and wheel is after the invention of TV. There's really nothing on screen that suggested the Silents relied on television to hypnotize the human population to do everything up to that point. --09:17, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

First, for some reason, your signature omitted your IP address. I'm assuming you're 222.166.181.109, as indicated on the main page of The Howling.

The Silents didn't rely on TV "to hypnotize the human population to do everything" for the good, simple and very obvious reason that they weren't trying to hypnotise a population. To get things made for them, they needed to hypnotise a fairly small number of individuals.

The "assumption" that the hypnotism "would act only if the condition permits" is an assumption that, if a person can't do something, that person still can't do it even if hypnotised into wanting to. Anyway, as I said (and you seem to wish to ignore), that has been discussed already. I'm not going into it yet again. If you want to see the arguments, look at the earlier discussions. If you don't want to see the arguments, that's your business but don't expect others to ignore them. --2.96.26.136talk to me 10:39, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Except the Doctor did say the Silents controlled human race, so presumably, human race is not just the White House and a few organizations. The amount of people required to advance technology is not going to be a few, even only accounting for the management/leaders, even a shuttle would require advancement in Germany, Russia, United States and several other European countries, and combustion would require Asian technology...that's quite a huge number of people involved. And if the Silents could manipulate even only the leaders to advance technology, then logically, they could manipulate them to wage war on the "TV Hypnotized" nations.

Regarding the unarmed/disabled civilians, the problem is not what they can/can't do is that they do not act according to the hypnosis command and instead could consciously choose to act on it, rendering the entire point of hypnosis pointless. This is almost the same as saying that the Weeping Angels would move if you are not looking but because it's dangerous and they could kill you, all of a sudden, they could not move even when you're not looking. Or Rose could die if she becomes Bad Wolf, so when she looks at the heart of the TARDIS, nothing happened and she didn't become the Bad Wolf. Or any country might lose a war if they participated so the World never had any war ever. It's just purely illogical and even more illogical considering that hypnotized humans in a moment acting out a hypnotized command would accurately and consciously predict whether they are safe against an alien and could consciously choose to overwrite the command in certain situations and not in others depending solely on future outcomes.--222.166.181.80talk to me 11:23, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

People can and do choose not to act on hypnotic commands. Take a look back at what the Doctor said in The Christmas Invasion when he was explaining about how blood control and hypnosis are similar. It doesn't render hypnosis pointless. It just means there are things it can't be used to do. Your stuff from "This is almost the same as saying that the Weeping Angels..." to "...so the World never had any war ever" is, frankly, drivel. The bit that follows isn't very much better and just re-emphasises that you don't know about hypnotism. Go back and listen to the scene I referred to in The Christmas Invasion and bear in mind that anticipating a fatal outcome is what will stop people obeying certain commands. --2.96.26.136talk to me 13:32, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

We've been over this 250,000,000,001 times already. The message was "you should kill us all on sight", meaning, if you have an adequate weapon, and are prepared to kill, then you kill any Silent you see. 94.72.226.244talk to me 19:35, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yes -- and I did tell 222 to look at the earlier stuff. Seems he knows as much about scrolling as about hypnotism. --2.96.26.136talk to me 19:40, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not certain what about my previous comment was confusing, or indicated a lack of familiarity, but I did indeed watch the episode. All that I saw was the Doctor splicing footage of a Silent into the moon landing video, and this somehow being all the motivation and evidence anyone needed to actually attack them on sight. Even ignoring the issue of nonviolent humans, the fact remains that most people wouldn't immediately turn around and look for a member of that species; they would just be confused by the weird big-headed dude on their screen and wonder why that was showing instead of the moon landing. Then they would promptly forget about it after the footage was switched off, and the "execution order" would be extremely short-lived en masse. Hopefully that's less confusingly-worded than before. Dazuro talk to me 00:09, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

people forget the silence as soon as they look away from them. also, any message said while a person is looking at a silence will turn into a hypnotic command the moment they look away and forget about the silence. this subliminal message stays in the person's subconsiousness, even after the concious mind forgets about it. also, people can't be hypnotised to death, as said in the christmas invasion. the body's survival instincts override the hypnotic influence and can even break the hypnotic spell, yet again like with the blood control in the christmas invasion (which was compared to hypnotism). so, in theory, the person would try to kill the silence unless they are in a situation where killing one puts the person's life in danger. this will probably result in unarmed people not being able to risk their lives to kill the silence while anyone who can safely kill or attempt to harm the silence with whatever weapon is around them would probably try. eg, if i was sitting at my desk and i saw a silence, i would probably try to kill it by throwing my laptop at it or maybe by trying to throw my scissors at it, but once i reallise that there is nothing more i can do without being killed, i would probably swich from a fight to flight rsponse as my instincs kick in and they try to save me from the deadly situation. Imamadmad talk to me 00:59, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

When was it stated that the silence's messages turned into hypnotic commands? I thought people just followed them out of fear or subconscious influence, but I could be wrong. Dazuro talk to me 01:33, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Dazuro: There's a scene in the TARDIS with Canton present, when the Doctor has turned Amy's photo of a Silent into a hologram. One of the things he does is demonstrate the hypnotic suggestion effect by telling Canton to straighten his (the Doctor's) tie. That was the first time the audience was told -- or at least, the first time it was clearly told -- about the hypnotism. The scene is in Day of the Moon, after the line about "Neil Armstrong's foot". Also, you need to bear in mind that the Doctor didn't insert the clip of the Silent into the Moon Landing footage after it had been transmitted. He inserted it at source -- in Apollo 11's LEM itself. That was what he was doing when he was caught modifying the circuits on the launch pad. The clip was, therefore, part of the transmission sent back from the Moon's surface. I suspect (but don't actually know) that the Doctor had some way of avoiding the timecode problem that's been referred to several times. After all, he doesn't just have his own highly advanced knowledge of computers, etc., he also has a TARDIS -- a highly intelligent entity accustomed to working with and through computers -- to help him with things like that. --89.240.242.115talk to me 09:13, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

I do remember that scene, but it didn't really make much sense to me at the time (not helped by the lack of subtitles and thick accents this show can have!). I guess that does explain a few things. So basically any suggestion you receive while looking at a Silent becomes an order, even if the Silent doesn't give it? Dazuro talk to me 19:05, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much. And, yes, I know that could have some very strange consequences. What if someone said, "Go stuff yourself," or "Go jump in a lake," at the wrong moment? (I can think of a few other possibilities that I'd better not put down here.) Bear in mind what's been said, above, about the limits of post-hypnotic suggestion, though. --89.240.240.15talk to me 20:25, March 10, 2012 (UTC)