Howling:5 Things to look for in Series 5

Over the course of the Series (5), Matt Smith and Steven Moffat have repeatedly said to look out for 5 things. I think I may have 3, The 3 I have is:

1) An Eye Ball - An Eye Ball that has stood out has been seen in the Eleventh Hour:

Amy and The Doctor's close up of their eyes when they look around in the corner of their eye.

The Atraxi's obvious Eye Ball.

- Victory of the Daleks:

The New Daleks Eye Stalk has a more realistic eye ball in its socket.

2) Red Telephone - A Red Telephone that has stood out has been seen in the Eleventh Hour:

A Red Telephone box located on the green of Leadworth

- The Beast Below:

A Red Telephone box seen in the back ground of the london market in Starship UK

- Victory of the Daleks:

There are many Telephones in the cabinet room and the one in the middle that stands out is the only red one which repeatedly rings thoughout the whole episode.

3) The Cracks - A Crack has been seen in all 3 episodes.

So could these be 3 of the 5 and if so what are the others?? Anyone else seen any other clues related to this topic only??? -- Michael Downey 20:54, April 17, 2010 (UTC).

Any Ideas?? -- Michael Downey 09:08, April 18, 2010 (UTC).

Here are some things people have posted in other threads (progressively less visual and more abstract):

The number "0" is of course all over The Eleventh Hour, and it also features prominently in The Beast Below (floor 0, etc.). I haven't watched Victory of the Daleks too carefully yet (having too much fun just watching the story, the first time through), but I didn't see any 0s--in fact, they avoided using a 0 for their big dramatic bomb-explosion countdown by using the color wheel.

The idea of a countdown--11s all over Eleventh Hour, Liz 10 in Beast Below. Again, I may have missed it, but I didn't see any prominent 9s in VotD.

"Silence" was pretty obvious in Eleventh Hour, and was mentioned in Beast Below, but again, I didn't notice it in VotD.

Time/history is somehow messed up. Rory's badge in Eleventh Hour, Amy's age being 2 years off visually vs. auditorily in the voting booth in Beast Below, and the blatant callout at the end of VotD all tie into this.

As for the phone--a red phone is not the same thing as a red phonebox. Especially in a show that's all about a phonebox. So, I don't know if that really counts. --99.37.227.199 09:19, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Watching it again: No notable 0s. There is a countdown besides the color wheel thing, but it's from 30 rels, and we never hear 9. No silence. And the red phone is not the only one that rings; three phones ring, two are answered, and the only one that's used in the foreground, where we can hear what they're saying, is the green one. Having a red phone as the second most visible of 5 phones is not the same thing as prominently showing identical red phoneboxes in back-to-back episodes.

As for the eye--they do definitely zoom in on a closeup of the new-paradigm Dalek's eyestalk on first reveal, and they keep showing it. Not to mention that there are a lot more Dalek's-eye-view scenes than in most stories. So, you could be onto something there.

Two more things:

Packing suitcases. I'll have to rewatch Beast Below, but Amelia in the first episode and Bracewell in the third both pack a suitcase as soon as the Doctor disappears from view.

"There's something I've/we've forgotten"--that identical line appears in every episode. And it's called out pretty explicitly in the end of this one, and tied into the overarching story arc. Amy wants to know why he's worried, when it'll take the Daleks some time to rebuild their numbers, and he answers, "It's not that, there's something else. There's something we've forgotten. Or, rather, you have. You didn't know them, Amy. You'd never seen them before, and you should have done. You should." And then the TARDIS disappears, and the crack appears behind it. Can't get more blatant than that. --99.37.227.199 01:50, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

And one more: The Doctor is always late. He's making excuses for the TARDIS ("Type 40 TARDIS, still running her in"), and in the past he's often failed to be the most precise of temporal navigators, but it's strange that he's always late--never early, or in the wrong page--and that everyone calls him on it. --99.37.227.199 01:59, April 19,

2010 (UTC)

In response to above, well spotted with the packing suitcases, I spotted that too but nothing similar in TBB and I can't think of any meaning behind it other than simply taking stuff with you when you go somewhere else.

Also, if the Doctor was a month late in response to Churchill's phone call, why didn't Churchill ring again in the meantime ?

I've suggested elsewhere maybe the memory wipe in the voting booth accounts for Amy not remembering the Daleks.

Finally in response, admitedly not a blatant use of 9, but there were 9 Daleks in the episode, 6 new and 3 obliterated. Don't know if it ties in, but Amy's dream episode is 5 years later, and the Doctor is stranded for 4 days in the supposed Lodger episode.

And a new suggestion, towards the episodes ends the Doctor reappears from elsewhere to where Amy and others are having "tied up loose ends" but these are not specified. Any thoughts ? 86.26.137.154 04:37, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

There are only 5 new Daleks, but if you count Bracewell... you look desperate :P Cannon881 07:40, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

(No I was just tired and miscounted 1 of the oldies at 1 side on 1 of the stills, many thanks for putting me straight 86.26.137.154 09:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC))

There is the 20 minutes thing has been mentioned in all 3 episodes.

1. TEH: Easy to spot, 20 minutes to the end of the world.

2. TBB: Doctor says that amy's memory has been erased by roughly 20 minutes. Just after he enters the voting room and uses his screwdriver to examine the memory modification device ( looks like a light bulb)

3. VOTD: In the scene when doctor and amy talk to bracewell for the last time telling him they are just gonna pop into the tardis for this urgent thing and be right back. He says it might talk them, 10 minutes, then 15, then 20 and then half an hour.

Also 20 minutes is said by the doctor in all 3 episodes. Udbhav3000 12:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Update: 20 minutes is also mentioned in Planet of the Dead, The doctor says that it will take 20 minutes for the swarm to reach the bus. (after the probe is eaten). Might be just a coincidence, but I am gonna look for it in the water of mars and end of time. as well. Udbhav3000 19:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Another thing: Star Wars references--from the "Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope"-ish line to the scene in front of the giant space window right out of ESB to the Spitfires attacking the new and improved Death Star^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HDalek Saucer after the Doctor (without even any Ewok help) takes down the shielding, each episode so far evokes the next Star Wars movie. (Which means, of course, that Jar-Jar will be with the Weeping Angels, right?) Anyway, I don't know if this is at all significant, or just a stylistic choice by Moffat and his directors, but it's hard to miss. --99.50.120.236 08:07, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Concerning the countdown theory.

-11 is mentioned a lot of times in the Eleventh Hour

-10, a character in Beast Below is called Liz Ten

-9 When the soldier is surveying the rooftops during the evening in Victory of The Daleks, there are nine blimps in the sky, though this number decreases as the episode progresses.

Good catch, anonymous user (you should sign your posts with the 4 tildes or by clicking the Signature button in the edit bar thingy). Now I have to watch it again. After I watch the 4th episode again to look for 8s.... --99.50.120.236 05:36, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

OK, after rewatching episode 4:

No crack (except in the scenes from next time). Presumably this means that each of the 5 things only have to appear once in each story, not once in each individual episode, because this obviously has to be one of the 5. Which means that the failure of anything else to appear doesn't prove anything.

That also means that the countdown wouldn't run out in time for the finale: 11 in #1, 10 in #2, 9 in #3, 8 in #4/#5, 7 in #6, 6 in #7, 5 in #8/#9, 4 in #10, 3 in #11, 2 in #12/#13. Does that mean the countdown leads to the Christmas special? Or the adventure games (which we've been told count as #14-#17 in the series)?

One sort of "countdown" is the "10 little Indians" ways the clerics are picked off one by one. And there's no 8 involved. At the end, the clerics are "down to 4 men", and the wide shots clearly establish 7 people (the 4 clerics, including the Bishop, plus the Doctor, Amy, and River). Since 3 have died, this means we started with 7 clerics, and 10 total people. (Interestingly, you never see more than 5 clerics in any shot, and only 5 of them are named on screen--which would mean 8 total people if it were significant, but it can't be, because there are clearly 2 other clerics who just never get named but are still alive at the end. I'm guessing they're the "Pedro" and "Philip" that someone added to the cast list.)

The 4-second loop is also a sort of countdown, but it even more obviously fails to include an 8. (There's not even an "8" digit anywhere in the time shown in the corner.)

Eyes, definitely--the eyes are not the windows of the soul they are the doors, Amy's eyes, etc.

The closest thing to "There's something I've/we've forgotten" is "There's something wrong, I don't know what it is"/"Yeah, there's something wrong, don't know what it is yet either, working on it." Is that close enough?

There are all kinds of references to history being wrong--the museum is wrong about a bunch of things, there's something wrong with the book about the Angels, and of couse the River Song spoilers thing--but, unlike the first three episodes, this is all expected stuff, people being wrong about history, not something more meaningful.

No telephone box or telephone, red or otherwise.

No silence. (People being told to shut up is about as close as it gets.)

No 20 minutes. (I think "2 minutes" is mentioned at least twice, and so is "5 minutes" but neither is the same thing.)

No Star Wars.

No 0s.

No being late. --99.50.120.236 07:53, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Good work!

The crack is OK, as in previous series the arc references were only ever mentioned in either part 1 OR part 2 of the 2 part stories not in both. So, we'll just have to see what else crops up next week.

There was a mention of '20', the Bishop states he has 20 clerics under his command, but so what?

What about missing the statues not having 2 heads, although not dialogued as such it is still an example of something being missed or ignored or overlooked initially.

86.26.137.154 09:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Found an 8 in The Time of Angels: Father Octavian (oct as in octopus, meaning 8) -- Dragonfree  09:43, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well done, you just beat me to it, just realised same thing while typing another post 86.26.137.154

There is a crack on the TV with the recording of the angel which only started to appear when the angel starts moving: http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2195/screencrack.jpg

it can be seen on most close-ups of the screen; it's clearer on the right hand side of the screen. However on this screen cap on the left hand side the crack is barely visable but it's there if you watch the scene through again. 195.93.21.7 10:09, April 25, 2010 (UTC) Andrewken





It isn't in the pattern of the cracks, though... -- Dragonfree  10:19, April 25, 2010 (UTC)







For "the crack is OK", as I said, the fact that it wasn't present this week but is in scenes from next week is fine, but that also implies that the absence of any other story-arc-thingy this week doesn't mean anything.



The "20" thing was supposed to be about having 20 minutes to do something in each episode, so, yeah, 20 Clerics doesn't seem to mean anything.



Missing the two heads is exactly what the "There's something wrong, I don't know what it is" that I mentioned. There's also the somewhat similar line "What's wrong with this book?" (or something like that--I didn't write that one down). But the previous episodes had identical wording (except for the substitution of "we" for "I"), and this one doesn't.



The "Octavian" is a great catch. No idea how I missed that--I was so busy trying to think of how it could possibly be a sacred name for a Christian group that I didn't even think of the meaning.... --Falcotron 10:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Okay the crack is definately one i'm sure of that. (ive read somewhere that the moffster said that the crack is definatly one of the 5 things and we'd have to figure out the rest.

The second i believe is something to do with 0 (i've only seen the first 2 episodes being in Australia) but prisoner 0 in the first episode and floor zero/ the boy getting a zero in TBB.

Now im not sure if this is right or even close but there have been rumours of possibly the Rani returning and on the starship UK, i'm not sure if anyone else noticed this but one of the letters that was flickering( and quite closely zoomed in on) was a capital R and possibly we might be given the a, n and i throughout the series.

'''In reference to your "R" theory there is a VERY obvious capital R on the helmet of the lookout in VotD. So maybe "R" could be a theme.kristadupuy 21:59, April 27, 2010 (UTC)'''

I think the fourth might be a distruption in time. The doctor was 12 years late than 2 in TEH than in the 3rd episode i know the doctor arrives a month late however he is quite often last for when hes planning but not usually when hes going to see someone on personal invitation.

Have no idea about the other one unfortunately. But i looked at the picture above and great work noticing the crack however i doubt it is one of the ones we are supposed to be looking for if u search the wiki for either the crack or the cracks u will see that every single crack is exactly the same shape and this ones totally different.

Also i believe that the doctor saying hes forgotten something is more of a hint for us to look not one of the 5 we need to look for or possibly something to do with the doctors memory. In TEH he forgot to give the man his phone back or thank him or anything and in TBB he forgot to say goodbye and stuff but i think he did expalin that.

Any opinions

A lot of this stuff is covered above. I know this is a long thread, but it's worth reading what others have found and/or suggested. For one thing, it'll give you ideas of what to watch out for when you watch Victory of the Daleks whenever it reaches Oz, and having more eyes searching for 0s, etc. can't hurt.

Also, you should sign your forum posts with four tildes (or just click the Signature button, which does the same thing).

Anyway, as for your ideas:



Cracks: everyone agrees here.



Rani: There are always rumors of the Rani returning, and I don't think they're any more likely this season than in the past. But you could be on to something with the spelling thing. Now I have to go back and watch all 4 episodes again. (Darn! :))



0: Dealt with above. Nobody's (yet) found any significant 0s in Victory of the Daleks or Time of the Angels.



Disruption in time/being late: These have been raised as separate issues, rather than the same, and found in all of the first three episodes. Nobody's (yet) found anything relevant in Angels, but that's OK, because it's the first of a two-parter (at least RTD's arc hints came once per story, not once per episode).



Forgetting: I think in TBB (yeah, have to watch it again...) he didn't forget to say goodbye, he explicitly chose not to say goodbye. But "There's something I've forgotten", "There's something I've forgotten", "There's something we've forgotten" in the first 3 episodes seems pretty significant. (I don't think "There's something wrong, I don't know what it is" is close enough, but again, two-parter.) --Falcotron 11:55, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think your with him choosing not to say goodbye something about gives a better story. Its now obvious that forgetting something is either one of the five or has something to do with the arc i'm just trying to think what it is. I might have to watch the end of time again i think it might have something to do with that otherwise it originates from TEH cuz thats when he first started mentioning it and because he says we aswell as I.

Just thought of something. A silent menace will follow the doctor and amy through their travels right and he has forgotten something. Possibly has something to do with Rory's phone he transmitted the 0 virus for the atraxi to find but never gave rory his phone back as he rushed straight of to the TARDIS and hasnt seen Rory since maybe a silent menace could be tracing the phone. BTW thaks for the tip on signing.Doctor Sivart 13:17, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the hint about the "silent menace" is what's got everyone looking for references to silence. But I couldn't find anything relevant in the 3rd and 4th episodes that fits. (I did just realize that TotA has a character from Silence in the Library--but that's way too meta....)

Your idea that the silent menace is tracking the Doctor and Amy through Rory's phone is interesting. In the RTD era, cellphones became more and more central as part of the solution to universe-threatening problems; in the Moff era, maybe he's turned that on its head....

Also, the forgetting line--it's actually more complicated than I thought, but I still think it's significant.

TEH: "There's something I'm missing... in the corner of my eye." And the episode has multiple other references to people not being able to notice things they've seen (the bit where Amy doesn't notice the 6th door, the bit here the Doctor "saw it, and I missed it" about Rory, etc.) but exactly one time phrased this way.

TBB: "There's something I'm forgetting." I still have to watch this one again, so I'm not sure about the line, or the pattern.

VotD: "There's something we've forgotten. Or, rather, you have. You didn't know them, Amy." And the episode has multiple other references to people not remembering things they should remember (the first bit about Amy not knowing the Daleks earlier on, and of course the central plot point about the Daleks pretending not to remember the Doctor, not to mention Bracewell remember things that actually didn't happen to him).

TotA: "There's something wrong, but I don't know what it is." And, once again, the episode is full of things being wrong (with the museum, it's expected that a lot of things would be wrong--but with the book, there's one thing wrong, and it's important).

So, in each episode, there's a similar but slightly different line, always starting with "There's something," always pointing out a failure in a similar but slightly different faculty, and that failure is always important in multiple cases in the episode but only called out this way exactly once.

Am I stretching here? --Falcotron 14:18, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think the silent menace is the crack because the crack is, like was said with the silent meance, following the Doctor and Amy everywhere they go. I think what was said means the crack is the silent menace, it is follows them everywhere they go, and it's silent. They never notice it. Or similararly, the silent menace could be causing the cracks when following them. I still remain true to my suspcious of the red phone box that appeared in The Eleventh Hour, and then an completely idential one appeared in The Beast Below. Delton Menace 15:34, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Right so far i've noticed 4 recurring themes

1)Eyes

The Eleventh Hour

The prison guards main feature was their eye

Two refrences to the corner of their eyes,

The Beast Below

children crying is an important theme in this episode(i know that this one isn't a very strong piece of evidence)

Victory of the Daleks

New Daleks have a new eye stalk

The Time of Angels

Amy is told not to look into the Weeping Angles eyes

2) Perception filter

The Eleventh Hour

Prison zero has put a Perception filter around one of the rooms in Amys house

The Time of Angels

The dieing angles have a Perception filter around them (this is one of the doctors theories)

3)Cracks

The Eleventh Hour

In Amys bedroom

The Beast Below

On the side of the ship

Victory of the Daleks

As the Tardis sets off

The Time of Angels

In the spoiler at the end

4)The doctor forgetting

The Eleventh Hour: "There's something I'm missing... in the corner of my eye."

The Beast Below: Amy chose to "Forget" maybe?kristadupuy 13:50, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Victory of the Daleks: "There's something we've forgotten. Or, rather, you have. You didn't know them, Amy."

The Time of Angels: "There's something wrong, but I don't know what it is."

I cant find one for The beast below, so if anyone else does please put it in and if any one else think of a 5th one please put itAlex1442 00:03, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I think i've found a late one in The Time Of Angels..... The Doctor mentions that himself and River Song keep meeting in the wrong order......that kinda works out late/early...but just a theory.. :D Muhammed2007 00:14, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that seems to fit even better with the "history/timelines/memories out of whack" thing than the "always late" thing. But it definitely fits (and the fact that it's carried over from the RTD era isn't a problem, is it?) --Falcotron 00:52, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

[Digital Spy's teasers for Flesh and Stone] include Amy saying "7" as the start of a countdown. So, it does seem like every episode has a countdown that starts 1 number lower. And it's 1/episode, not 1/story, because it's 7 rather than 8. Which means the countdown ends in episode 12, not in the middle of the Adventure Games.

So, Father Octavian is 8, but he's not a countdown. Maybe I miscounted the number of people they start off with going into the Maze, and it's 8 rather than 7? Or...?

Meanwhile, if the countdown is 1/episode, does that mean all 5 arc-thingies are in every episode, so we should be able to find them all in ToA?

And speaking of arc-thingies: "The crack. We finally learn what it is and what it wants." Not in the finale, next Saturday, in FaS. Wow. Does that mean it's not one of the 5?

Most of the other stuff in the teasers is useless: "River has done something... naughty"--yeah, she killed the best man she ever knew. "The Byzantium contains a forest"--yeah, we saw that in the series trailers. "What's the opposite of the moral from 'Blink'?"--yeah, we know, Amy has to keep her eyes closed; that was on last week's scenes from next week.. " Eureka Gallileo"--whatever, sounds like a random line of dialog. "Six"--yeah, normally a countdown that starts at 7 doesn't end at 7. "Amy does something to The Doctor that prompts an epiphany. And a collection"--yeah, we know this is the outfit Amy's wearing when she kisses the Doctor, the epiphany that results is obvious, and the collection is going to pick up Rory to take the two of them to Venice for a wedding present.

But there's one more that looks interesting: "There's a very important date you'll want to mark in your diaries/iPhones/Google calendars come the end of this episode." Well, "7 7 2010" is on some pics at the BBC Doctor Who website, so maybe that's the date--but why is it important? --Falcotron 02:56, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I'm actually really surprised everyone missed the glaringly obvious nine in Victory of the Daleks. In fact, every theory I've heard on the nine so far have been incorrect. There were eight Daleks, not nine, there were seven blimps. However, there is definitely a nine. A very, very obvious nine. Because it appears on a clock. And no clock can have both hands pointing at an IX at the same time. AHA! So there is a very obvious countdown through the episodes, but we're yet to see if it occurs every epsiode. If it does, we have the double finale for the zero, if not, double finale for one.

219.90.243.200 14:52, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Contrary to popular belief, there are plenty of clock designs that move the hour hand one hour at a time. This was particularly common in the early electronic (quartz or tuning fork) clocks produced by Bell Labs and Accutron for laboratory, naval, and military use from the late 20s to the mid 60s. The oscillator powers a stepper motor that drives the second hand forward once/second. A very simple gear train (which can be just one gear with 60 teeth and a spoke attached to the 0) attached to the shaft of the second hand steps the minute hand every 60 ticks of the second hand, and another identical system steps the hour hand every 60 ticks of the minute hand. So, at 09:45:45, all three hands point to IX.

Later electronic clocks (I think pioneered by either Bulova/Accutron or Seiko, and I think in the 1960s, but definitely well after 1941) were intentionally designed to move the hands more smoothly, like a traditional clock--not out of any necessity or design simplicity, but because it turned out that people liked it better, and found it easier to read, when the hour hand moved at least once/minute.

The only question is whether the British war room had a quartz clock or a Shortt electromechanical pendulum clock (which moves all hands together with each tick).

But anyway, that could still be a good "countdown", especially if it's prominently displayed or referenced. Do you have either a screen grab or a time in the episode to check it out? --Falcotron 19:58, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

OK, this is now getting way too long and disorganized, so I'm going to create a separate topic for each "thing to look for". I hope no one minds. --Falcotron 01:03, April 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Excellant idea and good work so far, I've added to new countdown thread but now out of time so will add to other new threads tomorrow 86.26.137.154 09:34, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I did the first few, but then the database crashed or something, so I'll try again tomorrow (if anyone thinks it's a good idea). --Falcotron 08:09, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Well, I come off as an ass, don't I? Totally wasn't aware of those types of clocks. But nonetheless, I stand by this IX on the clock: there was some lighting directed at the clock, it seems. The clock draws attention because it's the axis of the shot, and (due to the lighting) one of the brightest points of the shot. Seems pretty deliberate to me, or a glaringly huge red herring. But isn't that what fan sites are for?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/MurasamEdge/vlcsnap-2010-04-28-22h39m46s113.png

Shot occurs right after the raising of the flag (ie, the VICTORY POSE). Top left. More top than left.

114.30.117.50 13:27, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/episodes/b00s8dwd/galleries/design_art

I found this on the Doctor Who page....dunno why that date is so special.... hmmmmm Muhammed2007 15:26, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the crack in Amy's bedroom was an actual plot device. All the other instances of cracks (until FaS) are largely if not completely ignored. I think the cracks that "follow" them actually began in the tardis



Also, when the Doctor turns the affected monitor off there is a flash or an image and that may be causing the "forgetfulness" These are just a couple of thoughts I was havingDoctor Von Wer 14:45, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

The Pandorica was mentioned again by River Song in Flesh and Stone. ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( Talk ) ☆ 18:23, May 1, 2010 (UTC)