User:OttselSpy25/Sandbox/Speedround Two

This isn't quite an OP, more a place to write down ideas. I figure that I might do a second "Speed round" eventually, hopefully with segments written by other users.

So this is both a rough "planning area" for the concept and just a place to write down topics I might want to discuss in the context of validity. As I've said elsewhere, I find fewer and fewer topics I care about these days. So if I have an idea for one, it's nice to have somewhere to jot it down.


 * Intended title: Validity Speedround 2.0: Charity stories, Infidel's Comet, Hacker T Dog, K9, and Sleeze Brothers

Feel certain about including in Speedround
(Last time I did 10 topics. That was too many, and I apologize. This time I want five at most.)
 * 1) Charity stories - See finished OP below.
 * 2) Infidel's Comet
 * 3) The Robot Reveal - I've watched this over a few times. I would say this is my #1 story that I feel should be valid. I could even write an OP now if I wanted.
 * 4) "The Kermit Factor"
 * 5) K9 Appearances
 * 6) The Computer Programme - The Thinking Machine - Untitled Maze Segment, where someone has a K9 Unit named "Spot"
 * 7) K9's Question Time
 * 8) Some other fifth thing, might have someone do a guest slot about the Sleeze Brothers

Licensed Charity Stories
So I originally considered putting this one at the end, because out of everything we have today it's the least... interesting. Honestly. But it is the topic that is going against the longest amount of established precedent. So, some of you will quickly say, if it's going against precedent, why is it in the speedrounds? Well... Because I can literally only come up with three stories impacted by this. And they're short stories, the kind you'd find in a completely forgotten back-issue of Short Trips or the like. But I think it's clear that we have a situation here where our rules got really... confused about something, and we should just quickly correct it. Trust me, when you hear what I'm talking about it won't sound so sensational.

So our rules about Charity novels and anthologies basically date back to one of the first rules we ever had on the website: No fan fiction. The belief was that Charity publicans, while occasionally made with approval passive or otherwise from the BBC, were still fan creations. You can see this cited in Forum:Response to user introducing info from charity publications into in-universe articles. This was apparently especially a controversial topic when it came to the famous Time's Champion, a Sixth Doctor Charity novel that began as an official pitch.

In February 2011, Forum:Charity anthology short stories was launched. The forum meant to clarify that Charity stories which used licensed DW concepts and characters were no different from fan fiction. User:CzechOut, User:Tangerineduel, and User:Revanvolatrelundar spoke of this through June before the forum closed after few words. The topic was seen as unanimous and quite obvious, and saw no pushback from any other users (at least in those few months).

Since this, it has consistently been policy that whenever the BBC occasionally allows someone to use BBC-owned concepts only if the work benefits Charity and the creator sees no other profits, we recognize the existence of these stories but do not even create special pages for them. This is why Rule 2 in Tardis:Valid sources has that specific phrasing. "A work of fiction which isn't commercially licensed by all of the relevant copyright holders doesn't count."

So what am I seeking to change about this policy today? Not a damn thing. I don't want to change a single thing about everything we've spoken of so far.

However, we have recently come across at least two stories which are more complicated that this topic has historically been treated.

Consider this. Paul Magrs owns the character Iris Wildthyme. If Magrs writes a charity story with Iris and the Sixth Doctor, we don't cover it, obviously. But what if he's writing a charity story, uses Iris, and no other concepts he would need permission to use... Would we cover that story?

Historically, you might be shocked to hear, the answer is no. Because it has essentially been our position that in said case, Paul Magrs has given himself a non-commercial license to use his own creation. This... Doesn't make any legal sense.

Basically, while someone needing a "commercial license" is written into Rule 2 of T:VS, Rule 3 has no such distinction. It's "a work of fiction must be officially released to be valid", not "a work of fiction must be commercially released to be valid." So if someone has a commercial license, then uses that commercial license to create a non-commercial story, that is not against our rules! But we functionally act as if it is.

I'd also like to bring up that, realistically, there are probably several Red Nose Day and Children in Need segments which should be effected by this implied rule but aren't because... Duh. The BBC doesn't give themselves a non-commercial license. So it's just a rule we're not using in a coherent way!

Again, changing how we do this is moving against active precedent. BUT it's for the sake of validating, as far as I can tell, three short stories while codifying a novel which is already valid despite being an example of this. And it's a topic the original debates never even brought up because they were clearly discussing charity publications that used the Doccy, the TARDIS, etc. Not Paul Magrs doing a little charity work with a character that is owned only by him.

So, as far as I can tell, these are the stories which would be effected by this idea:
 * 1) Baron (Count) Dracula and Count (Baron) Frankenstein in Perfect Timing - Features licensed use of Miles Dashing and Crocker, uses some public domain characters but there's no Doctor, TARDIS, etc.
 * 2) Being an extract from "The Amazing Adventures of Iris Wildthyme on Neptune" by Paul Magrs - Features Iris but no other DW characters or concepts.
 * 3) Moon Eyes by Stuart Douglas, featured in "Storyteller – A Found Book". Features the Manleigh Halt Irregulars, who originate in an Iris short story. It's important to note that while Storyteller is a charity anthology, it is not a Who charity anthology.
 * 4) Mother, Maiden, Crone - This almost is kind of an example of this, as we currently cover it as valid but with a long paragraph explaining why it should be okay. Something I hate is when an article has as much or more content explaining our rules than the actual material of the story... :/

On top of that, these are stories that I'm less certain about, but might be an example under a slanted reading of this:
 * 1) It's Raining Gin from The Curse of Fanfic! - This one's a little more contentious than the rest, and not only because it's from a book titled The Curse of Fanfic! It features Iris crossing over with the BBC TV series . Now, the Sooty elements are not licensed as far as I can tell... But that's not against our rules technically? For instance, Spock cameos in a lot of DW stories without being licensed. Rule 2 only applies to DWU concepts. HOWEVER, the story does name drop Metebelis IV from The Edge of Time. This alone might be disqualifying, but it's complicated. If a non-Charity Iris story did something like this, I'd think we'd just look the other way. But we'll likely want to have a higher standard for these cases.

I've also come across quite a few charity stories which qualify for this and were later republished in non-charity works. For instance, Team Up reprinted material from 2011's Voices from the Past, thus meaning they're already allowed on-site if they had a validity debate. I think the existence of "charity-only" stories being reprinted in non-charity publications indicates that this is a more complex situation than Paul Margs giving himself a non-commercial license to use his own characters.

If you can think of any more examples or have any reason we shouldn't call these valid, please tell me. OS25🤙☎️ 21:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Licensed Charity Stories discussion
to be added

Infidel's Comet
So this topic was historically discussed at Forum:Infidel's Comet and The Pattern, Thread:191574, and Talk:BBV Productions. It is the middle Thread post which is most important to the history of why this isn't valid. And, as you might expect, it is also the middle post which we have absolutely no archive of.

At the time, I remember either being an active participant in this... or I, at the very least, read through it as it happened. So I'm going to recap what happened in the thread based on my memory. I truly truly wish I had a proper archive of this post, because this is probably going to sound like I'm remembering the discussion in bad faith. But I promise it was as confounding as I am going to make it out to be.

The forum started with someone discussing the commonly known fact that a Sontaran appears in the story. Others then noted that a Zygon also has a cameo. More licensed DWU elements continued to stack up. Eventually, there was near universal consensus that the story should not only have coverage on the website, but it should be a valid source.

Then, radio silence. Back in the old days, even when an agreement was found, it would take months or even years to get the topic closed. Then, one day, an admin did close it... Saying the story wasn't DWU. Or that it was unlicensed, or the main character wasn't DWU so it didn't count, or something like that. Basically the final conclusion had absolutely nothing to do with the discussion that came directly before it, and I think everyone was just confused by what had happened.

Again, I wish I could find or create an archive of this post so you could see it for yourself. But the basic gist here is that there was pretty much active consensus for this, but because it wasn't archived we now have to start from scratch.

So when discussing BBV and the four little rules, I think it's important to firstly state that most BBV products pass Rule 4 by default. The point of BBV was that it was Doctor Who stories told without universal permission from the BBC. When Baggs invented something like the Cyberons, he was trying to tell stories about the Cybermen without a license. So the original Cyberon movie passes Rule 4 cleanly. It just doesn't pass rule 2 - the prerequisite of needing something from the DWU which was commercially licensed.

So it's fair to say that Infidel's Comet was intended to be set inside the DWU. The question is, does it feature DWU elements? Elements which help is pass Rule 2 to give its passing of Rule 4 actual meaning.

Shockingly, this is actually a case where more licensed, DWU connections continue to be found as time goes on. Let's count them all!


 * 1) The Sontarans cameo in the story.
 * 2) A Zygon appears and has a speaking role.
 * 3) The Nestene are name-dropped
 * 4) The chemical Cobalt Blue is featured. This was an important plot detail in AUDIO: Old Soldiers, a valid story.

Now, in my opinion, any one of these four things would justify a story passing Rule 2 today. Instead, we have all four, cementing that Infidel's Comet does use four licensed DWU elements. If you want an extra piece of evidence, the story was apparently recently included in a Zygon themed boxset of some kind.

Thus, I think, it should have a page on this website and should be a valid source. Not much more to say, I think this one's pretty open and shut. OS25🤙☎️ 20:01, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Infidel's Comet discussion
''to be added