Howling:Mystery continues as River lands the Tardis

Great funny clip at http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/time-of-angels-clip-4453.htm but the mystery just deepens. How will they explain River knowing how to drive / land the Tardis etc. Is she a Time Lord after all (which would be a little disappointing after all the speculation there has been so far) 86.26.137.154 09:00, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Cuz she's an archeologist as she said in the library episodes, she might have a vast knowledge of machines like the TARDIS which now belongs to an extinct race. So she knows tons of stuff about old things, and this kinda trails off to the season finale explaining her presence there. Cuz the pandorica might/will/nearly open and an ancient evil entity appears in it, so maybe River has some knowledge about them and maybe some use to the Doctor. OR the doctor and Amy run into her while she is in the ruins of the Pandorica and stuff.Vboy1810 09:06, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

River Song's diary classed the events of The Time of Angels and Flesh and Stone (being with the Doctor at the crash of the spaceship, ect.) as being after she first ever met him. Things happened involving her and the Doctor before thso upcomming two-parter, so yes, it get weirder. Delton Menace 11:44, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, agreed with Delton Menace. In the Doctor's (and our) future, but River's past, the Doctor presumably teaches/will teach/taught her how to fly the TARDIS.

As for how she knows how to turn off the brakes when he only learns to do that in this episode from her--well, it could be a temporal information paradox, but I'm guessing either he gives her an instruction manual that he never bothered to read, or she finds some notes left behind by Nyssa on "some stuff I figured out so the next clever and technologically advanced companion (not a 20th-century Earth stewardess, put this down Tegan, I aready explained that was The Master tricking you) doesn't have to work it all out for herself." --166.135.137.95 12:41, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

A thought: What if the cracks in time are somehow giving her pieces of knowledge and/or memory of the Doctor down the line. It's possible that her knowledge and feelings of closeness with the Doctor are the result of some cosmic accident/incident. cb

I heard a rumour that this is not the first time they meet and when she lands in the Tardis she knows him but only recently. I hope that makes sense but with Time being all funny it kind of makes sense and it is Steven Moffat so he's not going to be easy in making them meet. Maybe they meet in the Finale but who knows we will have to just wait 2 days :) -- Michael Downey 13:38, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

And my statement actually makes more sense now that I've watched the clip from the post above. There's no way she's a time lord and how else would she know all that stuff and be able to speak to him like she knows him when she doesn't. This definetly isn't the first time they met, you can just tell but still like I said 2 days to find out. -- Michael Downey 13:43, April 22, 2010 (UTC).

River Song is a Time Traveler from the 51st century... ring any bells, people? Time Agents, and Moffat wrore for Jack, a 51st century Time Traveler, before. There is still lots of mystery about that woman, though. Delton Menace 15:41, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, as I suggested on another thread, the 51st century answers everything. We know that time travel in the 51st century was restricted to Time Agents and a handful of others, and who would that handful be if not licensed archaeologists, people who both have a good reason to go back to the past, and extensive training and practice examining things without disrupting them? Also, the fact that they have Time Agents implies that there was some unauthorized time travel going on, and again, who's more likely than renegade archaeologists, people who have the motivation to do whatever it takes to go to the past and the ability to get away with whatever they do there? --99.50.120.236 05:20, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Of course now that the episode has answered this question, it just leads to further questions. Amy: "How come you can fly the TARDIS?" River: "Oh, I had lessons from the very best." Doctor: "Well... Yeah..." River: "It's a shame you were busy that day."

So, who is this "very best" TARDIS pilot, and how did River and the Doctor meet him when she never met any incarnation of the Doctor who'd been alive before Gallifrey was destroyed? The Master in disguise? The Rani or the Monk? Some other Time Lord who escaped the LGTW? A future two-Doctors story where the 12th Doctor or the Meta-Crisis 10th Doctor (or the Valeyard) teaches her how to fly the TARDIS while the 11th is busy? Some non-Gallifreyan who reverse-engineered TARDIS technology? Iris Wildthyme (post-NA era, when she's from a different universe and isn't a Time Lady)?

Also, River can write Old High Gallifreyan, and it's been established before (Power of the Daleks and Five Doctors--and I think either Infinity Doctors or another novel more clearly established that the "written in OHG so no one else can read it" bit in Power of the Daleks is supposed to include even other Time Lords) that the Doctor was one of the few people who knew OHG even _before_ the LGTW, which could just mean the Doctor taught her, but could be a hint to something much more mysterious.

It's worth mentioning two fan-theory identities, both of whom are ancient enough to easily explain her familiarity with OHG, although both also seem too ancient to explain her familiarity with the Type 40 TARDIS (which was presumably invented after the time of both): Pandora and Patience.

The former obviously fits with the whole "Pandorica" thing, but Pandora appears only in the BFAs, so she only exists if that storyline is canonical, in which case she's been destroyed by Romana III and K-9 and now exists only as a manifestation of uncontrollable pure hate. That might explain how she survived past the LGTW, but it doesn't sound very much like River Song. Also, she already manifested as Romana (I think both Romana I and Romana III, although I don't remember), so any "River Song = Pandora" theory seems pretty close to a "River Song = Romana" theory. And really, Romana as a future wife of the Doctor makes more sense than Pandora. But neither seems very likely. (And if they wanted a hint that obscure for the obsessive fans who know the BFAs that well, why dress Amy up as Romana, rather than River?)

The latter makes more sense. Patience was the widow of both Omega and the Other, and the wife of the Doctor. And, since the Other reincarnated as the Doctor, having Patience reincarnate as the Doctor's future wife fits in perectly. Especially given Cold Fusion's "It's not the first time you've met her, nor will it be the last" (although The Infinity Doctors seems to be intended as the fulfillment of that prophecy, and it would be a bit odd if the MAs are canonical but the PDAs are not). Of course this conflicts with the fan theory that Patience is the Woman in TEoT, but that doesn't matter--sure, they can't both be right, but that doesn't mean neither can be right.

Anyway, I'm not too impressed with either the Pandora theory or the Patience theory.

My guess is that Moffat really wants us to speculate about River Song's mystery, and to get it wildly wrong--and he pulled that off perfectly. --99.50.120.236 08:40, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Totally agree with that last comment..... Especially good writing with the apparant answers to 'is she your wife' type questions that the 'yes' reply is actually a reply to a previous question, and it doesn't come across like that on the subtitles either.


 * However, we only know River can write 1 particular phrase in OHG not that she knows the language. Is 'Hello sweetie' becoming a sort of codeword / catchphrase ?


 * Or, did the TARDIS driving instructor also teach River OHG ? I think Moffat is dropping enough hints that the 'best man' isn't the Doctor. but it doesn't seem right killing your driving / foreign language teacher does it? Cos we know from AKs interviews that's how River ended up in prison 86.26.137.154 09:42, April 25, 2010 (UTC)