User talk:SOTO/Archive 1

Helping out at the forums
I think it's great that you want to be so friendly at the forums. But I need you to curb your enthusiasm just a tad. You've only been here a few weeks, so it's probably best if you just answer questions directly, rather than opining about site philosophy or saying "if you have any questions, you can always contact me". Please holster that phrase a little while, until you've been here for a bit longer. It's probably best if you go through one season of Doctor Who with us before you offer yourself up as a "wiki helper".

It's also really important that you do not speak on behalf of admin, as you did when you said "We never revert edits just because people don't have accounts. Especially not admin." We absolutely do revert edits from IP editors. We also actively stop them editing some pages. Nothing that Mini-mitch did in the case described is inconsistent with normal admin behaviour. We do treat IP editors differently, because they are different — not least because IP editors are frequently not individuals, but a range of people using the same address. IP editors are, as is evident from Special:Userrights a different class of editor. We would much rather have people in registered accounts. You seemed to be going down the path of suggesting that all editors — IP and registered — are one big happy family, and it therefore doesn't matter whether you register an account. That's not true. There are a ton of benefits to registering an account. If these differences aren't stressed, fewer people will register. 03:17: Mon 21 Jan 2013

Dates and tenses
T:TENSES requires in-universe portion of articles to be in the past tense. 3 January is in the present tense. There's also no reason for the out-of-universe portion of these articles to be in the present tense, since they're obviously referring to events that have already happened. In other words, all these date articles need to be in the past tense in every sentence. 20:43: Fri 01 Feb 2013

WLH
And the fact that it took you less than one minute to Google is pretty much why I put it low on the priority list. But now that you've figured out one way to answer your own questions, I'll chip in a little more advanced knowledge for you.

One thing you'll want to do as you edit with us some more is to customise your MyTools bar. That's the footer at the bottom of the page in the Wikia skin. Here's what mine looks like

See how I've got "LINK" right there at the bottom left? It appears on every page, even on editing windows. That makes it easy to check what links to uncreated pages.

To add that to the MyTools bar, I just go to "Customise" on the far right. When I click it, a window comes up and I go to "Find a tool" and then open up the "Popular tools tab". then I drag "What links here" over into the left pane (Toolbar list), and then change the name to "Link". Easy.

At this point in your editing career with us, you may also want to become a little more familiar with Special:SpecialPages. It has all sorts of nifty reports on the order of WLH that will help you become a more savvy user of the site. 02:38: Sun 03 Feb 2013

Page deletion
I'm sorry you're upset by the deletion of one of your pages, but there are some pages that are so uncontroversially trivial, or so unworkable given our policies, that they don't require discussion. A list of appearances of ordinary cell phones is certainly such a page. Given our wiki's policy of treating all media equally, it's extremely unlikely that you or anyone else will be able to track down every use of cell phones in the DWU. It's such a tiny but ubiquitous part of most stories written since the BBC Wales revival that you're not gonna be able to even come close to providing a comprehensive answer.

When making an appearances page, it's very important to ask the question, "Am I going to be able to give a reasonably full list of most every usage in every DWU story?" If the answer is no, don't make the list. If the answer is, "Well, I can do all the television stories and let someone else take care of the other media", don't make the list. If the answer is, "I can do TV, some audio and some novels", don't make the list. If the answer is, "I can make a list that fully covers everything but comics", then you cango ahead and make the list.

Of course, with something like a list of cell phone usage, you've got something that is just too trivial to spend all that time tracking. And it's a list that immediately poses a question. Why track cell phone usage but not regular phone usage?

I'd urge you to see this as a learning experience. Just because infoboxes have an variable does not mean you have to use it. When it's such an ordinary item, it's fine to leave it blank. Do we need a list of appearances for brains or hearts? No, they're in every story. Do we have TARDIS - List of Appearances? Nah, it would be virtually impossible to make the list more useful than just not making the page and saying, "Eh, it's in almost every DW story".

Don't take it so hard; my list of deleted contributions is longer than your total contributions to date. It happens on a wiki. We've all created pages that got deleted. 08:03: Sun 03 Feb 2013

Deletion of your user images
It's not our usual policy to delete people's user page images. However, all images must still pass the "fair use" smell test. It's doubtful that an image from Gone with the Wind on a Doctor Who website can possibly be defended as "fair use". So that got deleted. And since you left no attribution for the other pictures, they got deleted too.

Again, nothin' personal — and I very much regret the damage it causes to your user page — but we've got to try to be responsible about our image use, even on user pages. 02:51: Mon 04 Feb 2013
 * Please carefully read, the license that you put onto the image. That license didn't apply to your GWTW image, because it's not fair use.  In other words, your picture didn't have a valid license, which made it immediately deletable under T:ICC, T:IUP, T:GTI or the warning at Special:Upload. Take your pick.

Remember that you really do have to tell where you get your images. If you don't, there's no way to make an assessment as to whether they're fair use, and they must therefore be summarily deleted.


 * On a separate matter, your signature is not strictly a violation of policy, but I would ask you to please consider shortening it. It adds three vertical spaces, which means it's really adding to overall vertical page height.  If you're wanting to have that much text, think about making it mouseover, rather than inline, text.  To figure out how to do this, look at User:CzechOut/Sig.  05:33: Mon 04 Feb 2013

Staying on topic
Please don't use Thread:121256 as an extension of your user talk page. Please keep topics we're discussin' on talk pages on talk pages. Your latest post to that thread has accordingly been deleted.

To answer questions asked in that deleted post: 04:08: Tue 05 Feb 2013
 * See Tardis:signature policy and Help:Signature for assistance. They explain how to get around Wikia's limitations by using a template.
 * If you're looking for my genuine opinion, no, I don't particularly like your name because it's too long and it contains spaces. Good names are short.  And for technical ease, names should be one word.

Adding to year articles
Dear the Doctor Detective Arch Architectural Bishop Baker Intern Inspector...I almost always add the information to the date as well as the year as a matter of fact. On this occasion, I simply forgot. Nobody's perfect. In any event, I've been editing on the Wiki for quite a while now so I didn't need to be lead around by the nose. Thanks. --GusF ☎  10:27, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Category vs. :Category
You may not be aware what a difference a single colon can make. It's really important when in forums or talk pages to remember to insert the prepending colon. Otherwise you'll put that page in the category and your sentence won't make sense, because the words "Category:Name" will disappear from your inline text. 18:34: Tue 05 Feb 2013
 * A similar thing happens with files. If you prepend a colon, you create a link to the image.  If you don't, then you put the image on the page.  18:34: Tue 05 Feb 2013

Discussion habits
It's important that you adopt a less dismissive tone in discussions. Perhaps I should have spoken up before when you were attacking me, but I will not allow you to do this to other people. Your dismissive attitude towards Imamadmad's name at Thread:121256 is completely inappropriate, and constitutes a blockable violation of Tardis:No personal attacks. The proper response in that situation was not "Fine. Imamadmad. Happy?" It was something much closer to: "I'm sorry, Imamadmad. I'll make an effort to use your whole user name in future." This is your only warning. 04:00: Sat 09 Feb 2013
 * No, I'm not going to provide you a list of possible violations that you can later turn to and say, "Well, you didn't specifically mention that, so you can't block me for it." Understand that I have no interest in blocking you.  Bans for violations of tardis:no personal attacks are rare, but they do happen and are quite severe.  The most famous case can be found at user talk:Boblipton.  You may find it instructive to read that case.


 * But, really, all you have to do is just be nice. And if you don't know what that means, then stick to talking about the wiki.    04:22: Sat 09 Feb 2013


 * I repeat: just be nice. Is it nice to say to someone who has just said "Please don't call me that" something like, "Fine. I won't.  Happy?" — and then to go on and call her what she didn't want to be called, but parenthetically insert what she did want to be called?  C'mon man: you've got to know that's a direct personal insult.  That's you saying to her, "Your name is so unimportant to me that — even after I know you don't want to be called 'Ima', I'm still going to call you that and then only insert your proper name in parentheses.  People put great care into choosing their nicks.  Use their full user name in discussions and you'll never have problem.


 * Beyond the issue with Imamadmad, it's important for you to understand that, at the end of the day, I'm an unpaid employee. To me, this means that I do the job to the best of my ability, but I get to kinda pick and choose what I want to do. And I simply don't want to make a list of violations of basic manners.  Again, if you don't know where the line is, do not even approach it.  Don't try sarcasm, don't try jokes, don't try tongue-in-cheek.  Remember that humour usually plays very badly in text.  Just stick to the issues being debated, and you'll be fine.


 * I've told you specifically what you did wrong and offered you an alternative approach. I've pointed you in the direction of the "worst case scenario" that this wiki has experienced on this issue.  That page has links to the admin discussion about another user's specific offense.  Between the two, you really should be able to get an idea of what the policy is talking about.  05:02: Sat 09 Feb 2013

Please don't act as an admin
I reiterate my earlier request that you confine your remarks in discussions to the substantive issues at hand. If you go trying to mediate between two angry users, it's mostly likely going to backfire. It certainly can derail a discussion, as your comments at Talk:Totem did. If a discussion is attended by multiple admin — as that discussion clearly is — you may assume that wiki policy will be adequately underlined as and when necessary.

My goal in the discussion was to bring it back to the facts — not get into some kinda pissin' contest about what rules were violated by which parties. Your comments, well-intentioned though they certainly were, only took up vertical space — and then created other comments about whether you had the right to bring up T:NPA. NPA has already underlined on several user talk pages in connection with the Totem discussion.

Finally, note that, according to T:DISCUSS, talk pages are meant to be about the editing of the article only. It's best to try to keep NPA notices on user talk pages, and otherwise ignore the behaviour on the article talk page. Only in extraordinary circumstances will I issue a civility reminder on a talk page. And I'll only do it once. If people chose to ignore it, they do so at the risk of their editing rights.

There was already a "chill out" warning at Talk:Totem (short story). That was enough. 03:03: Fri 15 Feb 2013

Sig
I realise that T:SIG does actually allow, in its current wording, the use of pictures in signatures. But unbeknownst to any of us, the mobilewikia skin doesn't actually display pics in sigs, which means that your signature is behaving oddly in mobile. If you could remove your pic — particularly as it is purely decorative — it would really help out our mobile users.

The rules will soon change to reflect this current reality. Thanks :) 01:09: Sat 16 Feb 2013

Policy pages
Can you change policy pages? Well, I refer you to sections 1 and 10 of this page. Most policy pages are locked anyway. If you'd like to suggest minor changes, please do so on the relevant Tardis talk: page. Suggestion beyond simple spelling/grammar fixes should go to Board:The Panopticon. 01:32: Sat 16 Feb 2013
 * Huh? You asked me a general question, I gave a general answer. T:DISCUSS is already sorted and the above advice no longer applies to it.   01:59: Sat 16 Feb 2013

Update tag
Please do not abuse. It shouldn't be used on articles that already have a stub tag. In general, the preference is to use only on articles that have been well-established, and which — at some point — were as complete as was reasonable at the time, but more information has since become available.

It's possible to use upon creation of an article, but it's not recommended. For instance, my recent use of a stub and update tag when I created TARDIS control console was only done because I knew that our editors have historically conflated the two subjects, and I wanted to make crystal clear exactly how the article should develop.

I almost never do this, though. Generally, it's best to slap a stub tag and then indicate in your edit summary what failings you think the article has. In a push, you could start the talk page to list your concerns. 14:04: Sun 17 Feb 2013

Demonstrative pronouns
Please do not start an article with the demonstrative pronoun this, as you did at Young girl (Vincent and the Doctor). It's bad English, because you haven't actually defined what this is. People who are casually reading the page will likely not connect that the this to which you refer is the person in the infobox.

I refer you to user talk:Boblipton. 14:04: Sun 17 Feb 2013

Real life
Please don't upload images from the real world here. We don't want to get into a situation where we provide the real life and DWU versions of something on every page. Just slap a tag on it, and be on your way. Also, please note that T:THUMB forbids the manual setting of thumbnail widths. 17:13: Sun 17 Feb 2013

Painter
I've blocked you for about 10 minutes more in order for you to tell me what your plans are with the word painter. You retain the power to respond here, on your talk page. 18:26: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * I was planning on creating a new page (under painter) about the profession, in the same style as every other profession page (for example, the doctor page and every other page in Category:Occupations). I realise that "The Painter" is incorrect, though; it should be "Painter (Forever Dreaming)." Anyway, is that against policy in some way? --SOTO ☎ 18:30, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

[edit conflict]
 * You need to have a clear plan of how you're going to proceed, and then you need to tell me what it is, because you don't have the power to correctly set up the changes you're trying to make. Why is this painter from the comic strip "the definitive" painter?  Why not just have Painter (comic story name)?  How do you plan to differentiate between the in-universe job and the out-of-universe one?   18:33: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * Is there enough interesting information about painters in the DWU to bother with a page? Is your idea for the page something that will be substantially more than just a list of painters?  Is there some reason that categories can't be used to create this list?   18:36: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * I said I made a mistake. I meant Painter (Forever Dreaming. And I don't see the need to include any out-of-universe information... No, wait, scratch that - someone must have painted the faux-van Gogh paintings! So, either have a dab term - (crew) - or simply a BTS section --SOTO ☎ 18:39, February 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, good point. Let me think... I'll get back to you in maximum five minutes. I'll do a little research... --SOTO ☎ 18:39, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I did my research. Five minutes. (then it took me a while to write this) I think that would be interesting to note all the specific encounters the Doctor has had with painters, and his thoughts on them. For example, the references made in Vincent and the Doctor:

"I remember watching Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel. Wow! What a whinger. I said to him, "If you're scared of heights, you shouldn't have taken the job [...] And Picasso. What a ghastly old goat. I kept him, "Concentrate, Pablo, it's one eye, either side of the face"

- The Eleventh Doctor


 * I think things like this are notable to be included on one page. The Doctor has encountered many painters, and we get an inside look at it. Do you think this makes it worthy of an article, or should I just leave it as a page? --SOTO ☎ 18:54, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Gonna take more than five minutes' research. The primary use of the term on the wiki so far is in connection with the production team title. I think you need to get back to the day pages and don't get distracted by a project that will actually take some genuine research.  It's very, very hard to write a good in-universe article about a mundane topic.  You have to be committed to wading through tons of books and comics and audios just to come anywhere close to a reasonable article.  It took several months to create hospital, for instance.  Try collecting notable quotes as a side project, then maybe come back to this in a few months.  Also, please ask more questions before you move pages in future.  Until you've been here a while, you may not be familiar with all that's truly involved in a page move.  19:04: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * Sorry. Back to my day project, I shall go. But, just to confirm, as far as I'm aware, moving an article moves all the information and history to the new name, leaving behind a redirect (which I was going to delete along with the creation of the new article). Am I missing important information here? --SOTO ☎ 19:10, February 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, as far as actual general research, I don't see how you think it'd take that long. You just do a simple word search for the word "painter," and try variants (like "paint," "painting...") just in case, and you've got a full list. Then you go through the articles and the stories and simply add the information in text form. I understand about "hospital," which has undoubtedly appeared millions of times, but I don't think "painter" would take quite as much time. --SOTO ☎ 19:14, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

You are not an admin
Again, dude: you are not an admin. It is not your job to make determinations on when something is or is not vandalism. And your judgment in the forum over the past few minutes shows you have no idea what vandalism is.

On what planet is someone simply saying "hi" vandalism?

You are hereafter forbidden to characterise anything as vandalism. If you use the word, or any similar characterisation, you will be blocked.

We're trying to create a place where new people are welcome, and you've just gone and called a new user a vandal for saying hi. Three times. Think about that.

Furthermore, if you remove anyone's post from any forum thread ever again, you will also be blocked. That privilege is reserved to admins, as is made clear in the "best practices" advisory at Special:Forum. 19:24: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * Your response was disappointing. You ignored the warning above in order make an excuse for why you behaved as you did.  The important issue here is that you completely misunderstand what vandalism is.   Saying "hi" is the complete and utter opposite of vandalism. I need you to acknowledge that you will not call anything on this wiki vandalism — or use any word similar to that – and that you will never attempt to delete someone else's discussion points.  22:10: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * In saying that "hi" is vandalism, you have without any need for further discussion forfeited your right to report, assess, or even talk about vandalism on this wiki. It's not a "small mistake"; it's enormous.  It proves a basic lack of judgement that will cost us users.  Agree that you have no talent for assessing genuine vandalism — and that it isn't your job to do so, anyway — or be blocked. It's precisely that simple.


 * (And lest you think I dislike you because of this error, believe me, this arrangement is much to your advantage. The assessment of vandalism is perhaps the least pleasant job on the whole wiki.  This ban in no way prevents you from doing lots of other useful things around here.  Far from it. It releases you to just concentrate on the more pleasant aspects of wiki editing.)   22:52: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * We've had few problems with other users behaving as you did today. Most people seem able to restrain themselves, regardless of what the software may technically allow them to do. It's pretty obvious that you were the vandal in this situation, since T:DVAN describes vandalism on discussion pages as "when users change — or simply remove — comments left by others."  Now, obviously I don't ascribe malice to your actions.  That's why you remain unblocked.  Still, what requires attention here is not the software, but your behaviour.  23:24: Sun 17 Feb 2013
 * There is no technical impossibility to the idea you suggest. We could change group permissions for the forum module.  But it's just not necessary.  The work-to-benefit ratio is too low to implement it.  Even though the workload wouldn't in fact be great, it's higher than the more obvious solution:


 * "Everybody, keep behaving like an adult and letting people talk in forums. SOTO, obey T:DVAN or you'll never edit here again."


 * Simple.  00:08: Mon 18 Feb 2013

Days
How close are you to being finished with your prelimintary runs on the days? I've just closed the debate on the dab term today, so we now know we'll be definitely using (real world). But I don't want to start the move until you've gotten to the point where there aren't any more revisions that need to be made on the pages as they currently stand. 22:56: Mon 18 Feb 2013

Jack's sexuality
Sorry if I accidentally reverted anything else on Day One while we were simul editing. Still had the ep up and was editing live.

I think we've got a semantics issue, though. I feel that saying that Owen knows Jack is gay is conjecture - Owen almost immediately reveals he's stereotyping, and Jack is demonstrably bisexual - hell, I'd even say omnisexual. (In my book, that's different than gay, hence LGBT alliances and such. But it's the communal book that matters here.) In any case, saying Owen believes Jack is gay is accurate, and means we don't have to argue semantics or theoretical character knowledge. Sound good? ComicBookGoddess ☎  04:10, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Hypovolemic shock
Hypovolemic shock, medically, is actually quite a separate thought from the CPR. These two thoughts shouldn't be combined, as a lower blood volume can have lesser effects than cessation of heartbeat, and the process of CPR is indicated in far more situations than significant blood loss. I'm going to separate them again. ComicBookGoddess ☎  07:38, February 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I had the time. Thanks for pointing up that I had to elaborate to avoid misunderstanding. Not everybody has brought home a wage for beating on a dead man's chest. :)

ComicBookGoddess ☎  07:38, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, SOTO!--Trebligoniqua ☎  07:01, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Rename only when things are actually wrong
Please do not use unless you are absolutely sure by looking at the primary source that the current name is 100% wrong. Periods after a person's initials are stylistically variable, but they're never wrong, not even in British English. While there may have been a version of the Dark Horizons that appeared without periods, it's unclear that version actually made it to print. In fact, most copies do bear the periods, as can be presumed by going to amazon.co.uk. Also our own cover of the audio has the periods. Most convincingly, however is this picture of an actual book — rather than the 2D art — which clearly shows the periods.

Please perform simple Google checks before suggesting a. Note that our infoboxes make this really easy. All you have to do is click on the ISBN link, and you'll be given a wide variety of links to places that sell, archive and lend the book in question. 22:52: Sun 03 Mar 2013

Re: Thanks for backing me up
Anytime. I've seen you undoing his edits a couple times this week. I can't imagine how irritating that has to be after all the work you've been doing on those pages. TARDIStraveler ☎  18:21, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Bots
In volunteering my bot services, you are essentially obligating me to work that I may or may not have time to do. Additionally, since you don't operate a bot, you don't know that something is easy or not. I generally try to do some test runs before I advertise something as "easy". This is actually a little bit tricky since we're talking about replacing non-ASCII characters. Additionally, given wikitext usage of hyphens, there may be some instances of " - " which would not be correctly replaced by " — ". I really haven't given it any thought. I'd certainly have to run the bot in manual mode, which would not be my definition of "an easy bot run".

It's fine to ask if such and such would be easy for a bot, but please don't declaratively state it would be easy and give false hope to other users. If any mistakes are made with incorrect assessment of a bot's fitness for a certain purpose, please let me make them. That way, I can only get mad at myself. 05:24: Sun 10 Mar 2013
 * Please re-read what I've said. Your assumptions in your latest post to my talk page seem to indicate that, once again, you haven't read that which I've written to you. I'm saying that since you don't operate a bot here — or anywhere, so far as I know — you're obligating me to do work when you suggest that something may be "easy" on a bot.  It might be easy to do what you suggest.  But since a hyphen has syntactical meaning in wikitext, it might not.  It's up to the operator of the bot — me — to say that.  Not you.


 * You are always at liberty to ask me if a bot might be a solution to a problem. But don't say in an open forum, "Oh yeah, a bot can do that in a snap". You don't know that, so don't say it. Simple.  17:52: Mon 11 Mar 2013
 * I'm not fussy about where you ask me. If you want to ask me in the flow of a forum conversation, fine.  If you want to ask me on my talk page, fine.  All I'm saying is that a question is better than a statement.  20:10: Mon 11 Mar 2013

Personal category
For maintenance reasons, your personal category is moving from "User:SmallerOnTheOutside" to "SmallerOnTheOutside". Pagenames in any namespace cannot begin with the prefix of a valid namespace. Hence the "User:" prefix in your category name is essentially "illegal", according to MediaWiki naming conventions. 23:42: Thu 14 Mar 2013

Honorifics question
To be honest with you, it's never bothered me whether people type:



Not even slightly.

Why do you think it matters? 05:03: Tue 19 Mar 2013

Fritter statement unclear?
Could you clarify? It made sense on the spam article. I've made an edit to the article to clear up the wording following its transition to the fritter article. Could you clarify if this hasn't improved its clarity? Thanks. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:47, March 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's the wording in the book. Almost exactly in fact.
 * Here's the dialogue concerning spam/fritters from Cat's Cradle: WitchMark page 32.
 * 'The splendours of the North Wales coastline should not be mocked,' the Doctor reprimanded her, pushing a branch out of his path. 'There's a wonderful little fish and chip shop in Rhyl whose Spam fritters can't be equalled this side of the Crab Nebula. I must take you there sometime.'
 * So "this side" would just be a casual saying.
 * "Can't be equalled" or "could not be equalled" just means better than/greater than. So, no it doesn't have anything to do with size. Superiority I would assume. --Tangerineduel / talk 16:02, March 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yep, it's capitalised. It is a brand name after all.
 * The only time it's not capitalised that I can see is when it's referred to as a flavour, in the case of the liquorice allsort. --Tangerineduel / talk 16:12, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Blinovitch
Thanks for the MUCH better wording. Rewriting that article was so complex it seems to fry my brain in some way every time I touch it. :) Pretty sure it is already a metric butt ton better than it was originally, though. --ComicBookGoddess ☎  23:23, March 19, 2013 (UTC)