Talk:The Rise & Fall of Señor 105 (novel)

Ampersand Rename
While the cover uses "&", the Obverse website and the title page of the book use "And". I actually originally created the page at The Rise & Fall of Señor 105 (novel), but I turned that into a redirect because I think this is more proper. – N8  ( ☎ / 👁️ ) 18:11, November 30, 2019 (UTC)
 * Turned the speedy rename into a rename so there can be discussion. It's the job of the admins to determine whether a rename is needed. Shambala108 ☎  16:22, January 4, 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure if there's been a specific discussion about this yet, but as far as I'm aware, the title as spelled on the cover takes precedence? idk, a website is just a means to purchase the book, so it shouldn't take precedence. But anyway, I'd agree that either way we decide, the other should be a redirect in case of divergences on cover/website divergences. OncomingStorm12th ☎  16:49, January 4, 2020 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that the copyright page trumps the cover trumps the spine trumps marketing. (As User:CzechOut noted at Talk:Sleepy (novel), we care first and foremost about the legal name of the book.) Accordingly, we should keep the "&", unless the copyright page of the physical book uses "and". Scrooge MacDuck ☎  15:34, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Validity
I'll copy here what I said on the topic at User talk:Amorkuz:
 * You're quite right that I'm well aware that Thread:117545 says the Señor 105 series is invalid. But the Señor 105 series ended in 2014, whereas this book is part of the Obverse Sextet series, which features Señor 105 alongside Faction Paradox, Iris Wildthyme, the Manleigh Halt Irregulars, etc. Meaning The Rise and Fall is more along the lines of Elementary, My Dear Sheila than The Gulf. In hindsight, I should have started a thread about it, but it seemed to me a straightforward application of the precedent set by The Worlds of Big Finish. Mea culpa.

The forums are closed right now, but hopefully the invalidity of this story is something that can be redressed soon; coverage of the Sextet and particularly Vanishing Tales of the City is rather awkward without it. – N8  ( ☎ / 👁️ ) 15:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm also building a case for this series to be covered as a valid source on the Wiki. Epsilon  📯 📂 15:48, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I find the talk of "redressing the invalidity of this story" somewhat mystifying, in that this story does not appear, from its edit history, to ever have been invalid. Which wouldn't have made sense anyway — the ruling against The Periodic Adventures of Señor 105 was that this series shouldn't be covered, not that it was invalid. Those are very different things.


 * But as @NateBumber highlighted, this novel isn't part of The Periodic Adventures of Señor 105, so it doesn't fall under that ruling. If it uses licenses to DWU concepts as well as to ones from the Periodic Adventures, then it's, by default, a valid crossover, simple as that.


 * The precedent of The Worlds of Big Finish is possibly relevant; if the Obverse Sextet truly constitutes a series with narrative connections from one novel to the next, as I have been given to understand, then yes, that precedent would probably suggest we cover Rise & Fall even if it did not otherwise feature any additional DWU concepts. But we don't even need to bring that in. Just from the page, I see this book features the Venusians (who debuted in a First Doctor Missing Adventure) and El Jefe (who debuted, at least within non-charity stories, in The Further Adventures of Iris Wildthyme). Thus, a valid-until-proven-otherwise DWU crossover it is, unless and until it is proven otherwise. Scrooge MacDuck ☎  15:34, 8 February 2021 (UTC)