Howling:Who is building Tardis Knock-Offs?

The 11th Doctor comments that it looks like someone was trying to build a Tardis in The Lodger. Later in the Day of the Moon while rescuing Amy’s ganger from the dark suited aliens (do we have a name for them yet?), he notes that he has seen this same equipment before (referring to the equipment seen in The Lodger).

In a related topic about the astronaut suit, the Doctor explains that these dark suited aliens (DSA’s) used something like post hypnotic suggestion to make the human race build the space suit. He goes on to claim that these DSA’s use other life forms to do all of their work.

So who or what race did the DSA’s manipulate to build the Tardis knock-off? The Daleks built a Tardis-like transport and chased the 1st Doctor but they seem an unlikely candidate. Maybe a future version of River? --ANone talk to me 08:51, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

The Aliens are called the Silents, but I am unsure who built it. Perhaps the silence did?89.240.178.82 19:36, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * While I am surprised ANone didn't remember the name of the Silents (or maybe I shouldn't be considering their defining feature :P ) but they raise a good point, it is stated the Silents get other races to build stuff for them, which means they couldn't have built it themselves. However based on how little we know of them it could be that is incorrect and they could have done it themselves. However the question here is assuming what we know is correct who built it for them? Well starting off, I don't recall any evidence that their ships were transdimensional like the TARDIS or had an outer shell which could be change to fit the environment, they did have perception filters but so many races have those it isn't worth thinking about. That means the only thing copied is the basic interior design and function. There is speculation based off a few scenes that there may have been a Silent in the TARDIS during the 5th series, maybe they were gathering information for not only understanding how to blow up the TARDIS but take the technology for themselves. Of course if they did manage to get a basic blueprint of the TARDIS than I assume they could have manipulated any sufficiently advanced race to build it with the extra knowledge supplied. Which I guess is the closest answer to the question you'll probably get until Moffat decides to give any more details on the matter. The Light6 talk to me 02:50, November 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * the light6: "I am surprised ANone didn't remember the name of the Silents "
 * actually, the silence is a religious order, not a species, so ANone is right in wondering if we have a name for them yet. but most people here on the howling seem to be refering to them as the munch scream silents, because they resemble the things in edvard munch's painting the scream. Imamadmad talk to me 07:26, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * "The Silence" is the religious order, "The Silents" are the species that lead the religious order. And most people refer to them/know them as such because it has been confirmed through stuff revealed on-screen, including the credits on the show (they are credited as the Silents) and through interviews with Moffat and others involved in the show. Also the Scream only influenced their design and has nothing to do with their name (though I guess it is a nice dichotomy that something called the Silents take their appearance from something called the Scream). The Light6 talk to me 10:10, November 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * i never said they were officially called the munch scream silence, only that's what people refer to them as on the howling, if you have been reading other posts. Imamadmad talk to me 10:39, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Umm, I don't think you correctly read my post; I never said that you claimed that was their official name, I was telling you that people here call them Silents because that IS their official name (http://i.imgur.com/OCL7p.png). Also no one refers to them as "Munch's Scream Silence", just The Silents, Munch's Scream is just the inspiration for their appearance. The Light6 talk to me 11:38, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * The architectural details and any symbols within the Tardis knock-off might lead someone to give an educated guess as to who or what race designed these Tardis Knock-offs for the Silents. And whoever, (or whichever race) created the design - even if they are based off of stolen plans - would also most likely be the source of the technology that took control of the Doctor's Tardis and made it blow up. Trying to piece together the solution to the Tardis knock-off might provide insight into season 7 events. Did anyone recognize the pattern on the "button" of the Silents' machine? Shapes of the supporting struts look familiar at all? Some one who has seen more episodes (or at least remember details better) might help pin this down. Misquoting the 11th Doctor, "this is important."--ANone talk to me 00:08, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * DoctorWhoTheLodgerUpstairs.jpg



Nice reasoning, ANone, but the other question is how much of the design of the knock-off is dictated by the actualities of the universe and how much by cultural issues. An Otto engine's design is pretty much set by the physics and materials involved. The shape of the auto is not. Boblipton talk to me 01:11, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

The central column is obviously reminiscent of the time rotors in the TARDIS and in the makeshift TARDIS of The Doctor's Wife, although it's not identical to either. That, at least, is a candidate for the design being dictated by the nature of the job it has to do. The design of the exterior doesn't remind me of anything previously seen in the show. However, the coffin-shaped control panels around the central column do remind me of something I've seen before and I'm pretty sure it's something from Doctor Who. The trouble is that I can't (so far) recall what they remind me of. I'm not even sure whether it's something in the revived series or something in the "classic" series. If I do remember what it is, I'll post it here. In the meantime, someone else might do a better/quicker job of remembering. --89.241.65.18 08:06, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I have no clue what the coffins might be reminiscent of. The exterior vaguely resembles a Jagaroth ship, but I would be svery surprised of it turned out that the Silence and the Jagoroth had anything to do wwith each other.Icecreamdif talk to me 15:10, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I admit the Jagaroth ship had jointed legs but that's about the only resemblance. Also, if I remember correctly, the Jagaroth effectively died out several hundred million years ago, so a connection with the Silence does seem a tad unlikely. I'm sure, though, that I've seen something like those coffin-shaped panels before and it's really going to bug me until I can figure out where! -- (formerly 89.241.65.18 but probably changed this time) 2.101.57.89 22:10, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the Jagorath thing is a longshot and I would be shocked if they were related, but as long as we're talking about what the Silence's ship looks like, that's about the closest thing I can think of. How do we know the Silence didn't design it themselves? Unless they evolved on Earth, they must have gotten there somehow, and we know from the Daleks that the technology isn't unique to Time Lords, so maybe the Silence just also have TARDIS-like time travel machines.Icecreamdif talk to me 22:17, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I agree the current sensible guess is Silents (the race), because of the following reasons: I think the scenario in 3(c) is a probable explanation of everything that has been going on. The Silents (either native to Earth or landed on Earth at some point by accident of with the vehicle no longer functioning by Modern Era) became parasites to Earth's human race in a social sense, until they were discovered in The Impossible Astronaut by the Doctor and his companions. Doctor committed genocide by placing a Silents-induced embedded command in the Moon landing footage. Silents go into hiding and in the next few decades, certain fraction(s) encountered past/future Doctor(s)'s TARDIS(es) or other pre-Time War Timelord(s) TARDIS(es) and studied them (the Doctor and other Timelords would not notice them even if they lived in their TARDISes for an extensive period of time). Silent(s) could have been inside the Doctor's TARDIS the entire time throughout Series 5, the explosion may be the result of or necessary step to learning the principle of how the TARDIS works. Copied TARDIS(es) are built according to what the Silents learned at some point in time. It is possible that the copied TARDISes are built at an era before The Day of the Moon, the Silent(s) simply had to hitchhike on the Doctor or another Timelord's TARDIS. The copied TARDIS is either built on Craig's house or stopped there and the pilot could have been killed by Craig or other humans due to the embedded command. There. --222.166.181.11 17:25, November 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The Silents could very well be in the copied TARDIS but the characters couldn't remember them, thus assuming the TARDIS is abandoned. The Silents could simply be incapable of piloting a TARDIS or the Silents involved in the project could have been killed off by Craigs or others due to the embedded command placed by the Doctor in The Day of the Moon.
 * 2) The Silents didn't have to build the copied TARDIS, it could have been built by scientists, civilians who either haven't watched the clip with the embedded command or anyone before the landing of the moon or even the Doctor himself or any other species, they simply forgot they were involved.
 * 3) The Silents has the strongest motives for building a TARDIS as they will likely die out on Earth. The Silents could use the TARDIS for (a) an escape vehicle, (b) travel back in time in an attempt to undo the embedded command, (c) seek revenge of the Doctor (which explains why they are seen so far in the future cooperating with near-Humans to bring down the Doctor in the past)

My guess would be that the Silence built the TARDIS-like machines, or had them built, on whatever planet they were on before Earth. Then they used them to travel to Earth way in the past, and kept the thing hidden in a series of tunnels underground. Then, in 1969, the Doctor implants the "You should kill us all on sight" footage into the moonlanding clip, and he and River(mosly River) killed all of the Silence in the machine before leaving. After all the Silence on board were dead, the ships emergency command hologram was activated, and took the ship to 2010 for repairs, where it is eventually stopped by an earlier version of the Doctor.Icecreamdif talk to me 20:01, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

uh...Doctor and River were never shown to be affected by Silents' hypnotic commands (and since they are both timetravellers and watched the footage, if they did, the Silents would probably have been extinct before The Impossible Astronaut as the they will likely continue to travel to past eras of Earth), so they would have to malicious kill the Silents out of cold blood. If the Silents had a functioning TARDIS before Series 6, then Day of the Moon would never work, as near-future and past Silents would have interfered. I am quite certain that the explosion has something to do with the Silents so it would be more likely that the Silents have had studied the Doctor's TARDIS at some point.--222.166.181.137 13:25, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

What? We know that the Silence had a Time machine by the time of Day of the Moon, because we saw it. First of all, there is no reason to believe that the Doctor and River weren't affected by the post-hypnotic commands. We actually know that River was effected, because they turned her into a psychopath but she didn't remember any of them in Closing Time. When I said that the Doctor and River killed them though, I was talking about the scene where we saw them kill them, at the end of Day of the Moon. Just because they had a functioning TARDIS that doesn't mean that they could go back and correct their own mistakes. If they could, then the Master would have been unstoppable. Also, how would two time travellers being affected by post-hypnotic command cause an entire species to go extinct? The Silence may have learned how to make the thing by studying the Doctor's TARDIS, but there is no reason to believe that. The Clerics are from the 51st century, so for all we know they could have had the time agency build the machines for them. The vortex manipulators can't be all that they have. The Doctor even suggested that the TARDIS at Aickman Road may have been the same one that they massacred all those Silence in in Day of the Moon, which would perfectly explain why it was abandoned.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:13, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Please read before commenting, Day of the Moon is Series 6. The Master has no functioning TARDIS for a very long time and that is why he tries to take the Doctor's TARDIS. The Silents with the TARDIS would not have been correcting the mistake, they would be preventing it and time could be rewritten was discovered by the Doctor in Series 5, so bringing in the Master is illogical. The TARDIS is also far too advance for time agency, the Doctor refers to the machine specifically as a TARDIS, not a time machine. Dimension distortion and TARDIS' chameleon circuit are also Timelord technology. I have no idea what you have been smoking. --222.166.181.18 23:04, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Day of the Moon is season 6, but the TARDIS machine clearly wasn't some new toy. They had had it for quite some time. I was not saying that the Master would be involved, I was just using him as an example to explain why owning a TARDIS does not mean that you can prevent your own mistakes. For example, imagine that after Terror of the Autons, the Master decided that he really wished his plan had succeeded. Then, once he got his dematerialisation circuit back, he could travel back in time, contact the Autons, and tell him that he'll launch a warhead filled with anti-plastic at their home world if they betray him. Of course, he wasn't able to do that, because he can't go back within his own timestream. The Doctor would do this too. Astrid and Adric and everyone else who he likes would not have died. However, the fact that the Doctor and the Master never tried this, in addition to the Doctor's speech to Rose in Parting of the Ways proves that the Silence could not rewrite their mistakes using time travel. The Silence's TARDIS is clearly not as advanced as a Time Lord TARDIS. We're only even calling it a TARDIS at all due to lack of a better name. The thing does not have dimension distortion, or a chameleon circuit. Why do you think it disguised itsself as the upper floor of a house instead of something small and less noticable? Because it isn't bigger on the inside. It's disguise was also specifically said to have been caused by a perception filter. The machine didn't really look like the top floor of a house. It looked the same as it does at the end of the episodes, but all of the characters (and the audience) percieved it as looking like a house, due to the perception filter (which is a technology that everyone in the universe seems to have access to). We know they needed time travel to get Melody there anyway, so it really only makes sense that the Silence brought her there in their TARDIS machine. Also, there's no need to claim that I'm smoking something just because we disagree. It's a slightly rude comment, but I'm not going to take offense to it.Icecreamdif talk to me 00:34, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

i may i just point out in the wedding of river song river says "im a child of the tardis i understand the physics" so it seams completely plausable that she built it also oin on to it being the same tardis in the lodger rot is comeing throung the celing and so that might be rotting silents or it could just be the other peoples bodys Whooligist talk to me 21:23, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't really rot, was it. If it was, Craig wouldn't have gotten so sick when he touched it. If I remember correctly, the Doctor gave Craig some technobabble explanation for it. It's possible that Melody built it, but unlikely. So far we haven't seen them using the machine for anything other than time travel, so they probably already had it when Melody was a baby so that they could bring her to the 60s. Besides, even the Doctor doesn't seem capable of just building a TARDIS whenever he wants. How many episodes have there been over the years where the Doctor thinks that he's stranded somewhere forever because he lost the TARDIS? If he can't build one, then I doubt that River can either. Hopefully we'll see the machine again next season, so that we can get some kind of answers.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:50, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

we don't even know if it does travel in time. that was just the doctor's hypothesis based on the interior design of the ship. but we have never seen it work so maybe the doctor is comletely wrong and it does someting else. just a random idea, could it be a purpose built paradox machine made to hold the effects of the cracks? i mean, if a tardis could be turned into a paradox machine, why couldn't someone whith the technical know-how build one from scratch based on the basic design of the tardis? and it would also give us an insight to the paradoxical properties of the cracks. this idea is probably wrong, but as it has not yet been confirmed to be an actual tardis ripoff, that's just the doctor's initial idea, it could potentially be anything. Imamadmad talk to me 22:35, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

The cracks don't seem to be something that the Silence meant to cause-they were probably just an accident. If the Silence weren't planning no blowing up the universe, I don't see why they would make a paradox machine. Besides, the cracks never existed now. Whether or not the events they erased now exist is another matter, but the cracks themselves never existed. Therefore, there is no good reason that they would have a paradox machine in The Impossible Astronaut and The Day of the Moon. Icecreamdif talk to me 23:07, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

I've finally figured out what the coffin-shaped control panels in the Silence "TARDIS knock-off" remind me of, but it may not be any help. They slightly resemble the panels/legs of the Dalek Emperor in The Parting of the Ways. (See 89.241.65.18 08:06, November 7, 2011 (UTC), above.) --78.146.185.202 22:14, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone have a picture of a Dalek time machine control panel ? For some reason it reminded me of that, but I don't have a picture to compare it with. 177.98.53.127 15:50, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

In the revived series, some Daleks (such as the Cult of Skaro) have used a built-in mechanism -- possibly a vortex manipulator -- for time travel. Where Daleks have used ships for time travel, the ships have been their normal spaceships. In the classic series, the only actual Dalek time machine shown was in The Chase (1965), and its controls looked nothing like those of the Silence ship. However, the hemispherical "connection point" the Silence ship tried to make people touch in The Lodger does look very similar to controls the Daleks use, designed to fit their sucker arms. We know the Silence use technologies developed by other races, so it's not impossible that they got those controls from the Daleks. We also know the Doctor sought out a dying Dalek in order to get information about the Silence, so the two races must have been in some kind of contact. What we don't know is what kind of contact. If the Silence manipulated (or tried to manipulate) the Daleks in the way they've manipulated humans, for example, and the Daleks found out about it, the Daleks would not be at all pleased. --89.240.253.115 19:26, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

We've seen other TARDISes than those in The Chase. In Rememberance of the Daleks, that creepy little girl had some kind of Dalek time travel sphere that Ace's boyfriend from that episode stole, and in Day of the Daleks, the human guerillas made a time machine based on stolen Dalek plans. Anyway, despite any similarities between the designs, I doubt that the Silence used Dalek technology for their time ships. If for no other reason, I can't see the Silence manipulating the Daleks as easily as they did the humans. It wouldn't exactly take mass-hypnosis to cause the Daleks to shoot any Silence they see on sight.Icecreamdif talk to me 03:26, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

The time controller in Rememberance of the Daleks didn't work the same way as the TARDIS and that was a major plot point -- the reason the Daleks wanted to get hold of the Hand of Omega. (See the Doctor's explanation to Ace, while sitting on the stairs in the school.) My point was that the Daleks have been shown using ships (rather than other devices) for time travel only rarely. In the revived series, those ships have been their normal spaceships. The only time the Daleks were shown using something resembling a TARDIS was in The Chase. That thing was even dimensionally transcendent, which their spaceships are not. Mind you, the Silence ships don't seem to be dimensionally transcendent, either.

There's an unanswered question about why the Daleks only ever built one dimensionally transcendent timeship. Yes, they lost that one (and Barbara and Ian, with the Doctor's help, used it to get home, then destroyed it) but the Daleks ought to have been able to build others. I've sometimes wondered if the Time Lords found out about that one and intervened in the Daleks' timeline to remove their knowledge of the technology involved -- perhaps a topic for discussion elsewhere on this site but not directly relevant here.

The Silence certainly would have difficulty manipulating the Daleks and the Daleks wouldn't need much encouragement to exterminate the Silence on sight. As I said earlier (though I admit I used understatement), if the Silence tried it and the Daleks found out, the Daleks would react with serious hostility. Nevertheless, the Doctor obviously believed the the Daleks had useful knowledge about the Silence, which suggests some kind of contact between them. It might, of course, be indirect contact. It's very unlikely to have been friendly contact; the Daleks aren't the friendly type. But contact there must have been and that hemispherical "connection point" does look rather Dalek. --89.242.72.248 09:28, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

While I agree to the extent that parasites usually are evolved to be parasitic to a narrow array of species, and thus the Silents'a abilities may be effective in human or human-like species only, it certainly does not automatically suggest that they are ineffective against Daleks without visual evidence from the series. Timelords and pseudo-Timelord like River were affected by the Silents' memory-proof trait, so it does not rule out that possibility that Daleks would be similarly affected, especially accounting for how Daleks were once humanoid. Cybus Cybermen, on the other hand, due to technological memory storage aids (as shown in infostamps and suggestion of wireless memory sharing capabilities), may, for once, be effective against something like the Silents. This also suggests that the Cybus Cybermen could have been aware of the Silents all these time. Dalek, while we know they have a recording system of some sort, were always shown to communicate information verbally instead of the wireless synching used by Cybus Cybermen. So human technology surprisingly triumphed Dalek in this case... --222.166.181.68 18:01, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Even if the Silents had the same effect on Daleks as on humans and Time Lords, they'd have the distinct problem that the Daleks, without needing anything like the doctored (excuse the expression) Apollo 11 recording, would be likely to start shooting. Also, while the Daleks do tend to use verbal communication, they have been shown to use wireless communication, too -- quite often simultaneously. In Remembrance of the Daleks, shortly before Ace used her baseball bat to beat up a Dalek, she switched on her "ghetto blaster" in an upper-storey lab and overheard the conversation the Daleks were having in the cellar, because it picked up their communications. There have been other references to wireless communication, including automatic alarms that functioned even if the Dalek itself was dead (Planet of the Daleks, for example). --78.146.178.59 23:00, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think you're right that the only ships that they've used to travel through time are the ones in The Chase and both their space ships and tank-armor in the new series. As for why they've never used the ones from The Chase again-who knows? Maybe they just stole it from a renegade Time Lord or maybe they only built one prototype and lost the schematics when Ian and Barbara took it. The Daleks probably would be able to retain memory of the Silence if they tried. They have been seen to just view the world on some kind of screen through their eyestalks, so all they would have to do would be to hold the image of the Silence somewhere in their field of vision at all times. That way, they wouldn't forget. Lately, it seems that the entire universe (except the Doctor, naturally) knows about the Silence, or at least the religious organization they are part of, so the Daleks may have had contact with Kovarian or the monks, but not the mind wiping species themselves. Still, while it is possible, it doesn't seem likely that the Silence ships are based on Dalek technology.Icecreamdif talk to me 03:46, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't seem likely, I agree. Nevertheless, that is what the coffin-shaped control panels remind me of and, as I said when I finally realised what they reminded me of, "it may not be any help." --89.242.70.24 11:39, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

The unlikeliness is further reinforced by the fact that Silents have influenced the TARDIS so they were probably on it and studied it at some point and possibly even learned to build one from the Doctor (through hypnotic suggestion). And of course any other Timelord who have landed on Earth at any point since human civilization would potentially have contributed to them. --222.166.181.72 15:41, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

True enough. That certainly includes the (Meddling) Monk, the Master and the Rani. And it's not just "since human civilization"; the Silent told Canton they'd been here "since fire and the wheel", long before civilization. Earth is also a potential source of alien technology, including Dalek technology, because we've seen several alien races on Earth, in its past: Daleks in Victorian England (The Evil of the Daleks), a Sontaran in the middle ages (The Time Warrior), a Rutan in about 1900 (Horror of Fang Rock) all spring to mind and there have been others. Horror of Fang Rock left a Rutan ship lying about somewhere. Torchwood was shown (in Army of Ghosts/Doomsday) to have acquired quite a collection of stuff and that would presumably have been available to the Silents, too, via hypnotised humans. --2.101.48.236 17:46, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

I assumed wheel would not preceed civilization..but anyway...and the Silents could also have travelled with the Doctor for an indefinite time without them noticing, travelling across time and space, and bringing those technoloy to Earth. There are all sort of wild things possible with the Silents, they could have been bought to Earth by the Doctor in the first place without the Doctor noticing, they could have used hynosis to influence Doctor to protect Earth since the beginning or in situations where the Doctor would harm others in protecting Eart/humans. --222.166.181.242 18:11, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Civilisation is comparatively recent. Fire, at least, goes back far, far further. There's a distinct possibility that having fire, which allowed food to be cooked, was a major factor in the evolution of our genus (not just our species). There have been civilisations without the wheel, so it may not be that old. When you say, "There are all sort of wild things possible with the Silents," you're right on the button. There are limits, though. They don't have the kind of technology they would have had if they'd managed to hitch a lift to Gallifrey, for example. If they'd done that, they'd not have "TARDIS knock-offs", they'd have TARDISes. --2.101.48.236 20:30, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

so, from the fact that the silence don't have the more advanced timelord technology we can assume that they couldn't have been traveling with the doctor since before the time war, otherwise they would have been able to have had contact with gallifrey. with this slightly narrowed timeframe, when would the silence have been able to get into the tardis at all. the doctor tends to keep it locked, which is why his companions need a tardis key. well, atleast before 11 arrived. amy never got a key, which means there is a greater chance that the doctor left the door unlocked more often then in the past, meaning the silencs could get in without being noticed. maybe, the silence got into the doctor's tardis in one of the doctor's adventures in the first part of series 5, then got out in victory of the daleks where they take the "plans" for the daleks (which would have to be similar to the real thing to have been believable to the people in WWII), hence the reason for the dalek sphere like bumps on the control panel; built their own tardis kind of thing and then went back into the past to influence earths history to be how they want it. the reason for the dalek bump looking things? well, the daleks must have something in their suckers that links them to the bumps to tell whatever the machine they are controlling what to do, because just a normal plunger wouldn't be able to give many different signals. so, the spheres have to be able to pick up other kinds of signals the daleks send to it, which once the silence got the dalek plans, they could convert to be able to read minds through the touch of a hand, as seen in the lodger, which is how they control the machine because it's simpler than all the levers and buttons on the doctor's tardis. well, this is the best i could come up with for including the details mentioned above. feen free to critisise or add to it. Imamadmad talk to me 03:09, December 22, 2011 (UTC)