Talk:The Woman (The End of Time)

She's a Time Lady, you can see her in the preview of Ten spinning around and shooting someone with Wilf's gun. He's behind him next to the President of the Time Lords in Time Lord Robes. It's possible she's Romana or the Rani...
 * Interesting. I hadn't noticed her in the preview, but my theory before that had been that she might be the White Guardian, finally returning. She appears and disappears (and communicates) mysteriously, wear's a white suit (and had a white background on TV), and is apparently trying to stay somewhat distanced from things (avoiding the Doctor knowing she's there). I'd also heard a theory that the White and Black Guardians were gone since the Time War, because they were no longer needed since the destruction of the Time Lord and Dalek races... if that theory has any credence than now that the Time Lords are back, it would make sense for the Guardians to return as well. Of course this could also just be my mind jumping to conclusions since I saw Enlightenment only a couple weeks ago... who knows. ;-) --173.33.173.112 17:46, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Identity
Was it stated, or was it just left at someone who left him a long, long time ago? IE Romana or Susan? --Golden Monkey 20:00, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think the identity of the woman is either The Doctor's mother, or Romana. Recall that the last we see of Romana is when she gets trapped in e-Space and The Woman stated that she was once lost. --Invictus152 23:26, January 2, 2010 (PST)

The Mystery
Well, here's my point of view. The way the Doctor looked at her during Part Two I think proves that it was someone he knew well, such as a companion, so I'm gonna rule out the idea of her being the White Guardian. I think she is wearing white because she has died, as if she's in Heaven. You only ever NOT see her wearing White when she travels through time with the Time-Lords, I'm thinking possibly that was because she was alive at that time the Time War was on. I havn't seen the earlier series so I don't know the names of most of the companions, though I'm sure it's one of them such as "Romana". 91.105.246.252 21:01, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

= A relation =

Is it possible that it is his Grandaughter, Susan Foreman? From the very first episode? an unearthly child, or some other relation to him even though there is the question of the looms how he could conceive children...Or Leila who was left on gallifrey and had a child their. - Greateagle5 21:10, January 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with the idea of it being his grandaughter Susan. 91.105.246.252 21:13, January 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I do not think it is his granddaughter Susan imagine claire bloom calling DT or MS grandad who are both younger than her. You may argues that time lords are like that and that may be a good twist to have. I do not think she is or the child of leila she survived the time war and did not mention having children. I think it is the doctors mother. --Catkind121 21:18, January 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Notice who he stared at: Wilf's granddaughter. We'll probably never know for sure, but at least that's a hint. --Golden Monkey 21:19, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Claire Bloom was said to be playing the Doctor's mother lots of times, by even her manager. So I think that's about it. When he looks at her, he is clearly in shock, his saddened theme plays, and she briefly looks a him. She knew a lot about the Doctor. I think that pretty much says it. His mother. He looked very sad when he saw her go, ready to cry. Delton Menace 21:24, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Taking a different perspective to GoldenMonkey, but the same action. When asked by Wilf who the woman was he looks at Donna. This could be suggesting grandaughter...but bear in mind Donna is in a wedding dress. The Doctor mentioned in 'The Doctor's Daughter' that he had a family (including the phrase I think "I had a family once...[BEAT]...and a wife.") and this could be a RTD clue to up coming events (a la 'Badwolf' or doing the series 4 thing and dropping references in every episode) suggesting perhaps that his wife may appear at some point. The woman was in white, like a wedding dress, the clothes wore by DOnna when the doctor looked at her. Well, that's my theory anyway. Pacman100 02:08, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

I heard that Russel T. Daviess said a clue as to who she is is the costume she had when she meets Wilf: completely white. Then weh asked who she is, the Doctor's looks at Donna [Wilf's granddaughter], who is dress in completely white. Hmm. Delton Menace 02:18, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

It's all open to interpretation. Russell T Davies originally intended it to be the Doctor's mother, but in the end, he elected not to say it outright, and leave it up to viewers to decide (see the Doctor Who Confidential for the End of Time, I forget which part). Personally, I like the idea that it was Susan, since it hearkens back to something from the show's history (something the revived series has been known to do repeatedly, both from itself, and the original show).

Who she might be

 * The Doctor's mother
 * The Doctor's wife
 * Jenny
 * Susan
 * Donna as The DoctorDonna IonutRO 05:01, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Romana
 * Rose Tyler (we hear the Rose-theme when she reveals her face to the Doctor. The writers definitely wanted to leave that door open)

She's the Doctor's mother, I don't know why no one has found this article yet

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/doctor-who/5240633/Claire-Bloom-to-star-as-mother-of-Doctor-Who.html

Seconded from the horse's mouth - point twelve on this article and also in the writer's tale: the final chapter http://www.sfx.co.uk/page/sfx?entry=20_things_we_learnt_from lottie01 20:26, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

She's also identified in the episode commentary specifically as The Doctor's mother. I think there's more than enough info/sources to change the article to reflect. Blightsoot 21:09, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yep, I was just listening to the commentery. They gave in and said she is the Doctor's mother, and said it outright. Delton Menace 21:41, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

What about the other person who voted against the idea and was also weeping????

Russell T. Davies did point out the weeping Time Lord stood opposite her. He mentioned their connections because they were both weeping for unknown reasons and what not, but... All we know is that the Woman was the Doctor's mother, but we didn't learn very much about the weeping Time Lord stood opposite her other than, in commentery, they're connected.

The clothes that the two of them wore were also different than what most Time Lords wore: they had their own special design and not the typical one, interestingly. Delton Menace 02:57, January 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * The other one is presumably his father. Yes? 137.222.231.37 19:47, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's what I would think. -- Noneofyourbusiness 20:32, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Timelady
Ok let's put this in perspective. Susan was left on Earth after a Dalek Invasion by the Doctor himself. She was later reunited with the "original" Doctor in "the 5 Doctors" on Gallifrey in the death zone. Did the Doctor simply drop her back on their homeworld? 5 Doctors took place right before his first regeneration on his timeline. I doubt he brought her back to Earth after the Dalek Invasion where she was left. It's quite possible she went home and took up her role in Timelord studies and eventually became a member of the High Council. The possibility that it's Romana are good also. I never read it but there was a DW book where Romana returned from E-space and took her seat as Lord President or just in the High Council itself. I beleive it was during the 6th Doctors timeline. She was still in her 2nd incarnation during this story. Must be careful with some of these books that were written because of contradiction to the series. I'm not sure, but I do not think the Doctor and Romana would be emotionally attached like the Doctor and Susan would be. I mean...even during the 5 Doctors, Doctor 5 was thrilled to see Susan again, it was in his eyes. The other 2 did not bat an eye at her inside Rassilons Tower. I'm willing to bet that the mysterious woman IS SUSAN, regenerated obviously, and returned to Gallifrey. How she became more powerfull is best left alone ( she did travel without a TARDIS to see Wilf, Timering perhaps asi "Genesis of the Daleks" & "Revenge of the Cybermen" ) I think that part of the Doctors 'pain' in his past, is the fact he left Susan behind, brought her home, only to end up in this "Time War" and become a victim of it. Where she would have been safer on Earth's future. It's also Quite possible that ALL TIMELORDS were summoned for this war and were snatched up. Time scoop maybe? ASI 5 Doctors.

This is getting ridiculous... Julie Gardner came right out and confirmed she is the Doctor's mother, not Susan. Delton Menace 15:01, January 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * And Davies said Jack was the Face of Boe, despite there being clear references to "boe-kind" in the broadcast at the beginning of Long Game. Sometimes they say things just to deliberately stir up the fans. Koschei 21:18, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

is anyone else dissapointed by the whole 'doctors mother' thing, i mean, it wouldve been alot better, and made more sense in it being susan or even his wife, but correct me if i'm wrong, i dont think the doctor has mentioned his mother (at least her not being alive)ever through out the series


 * She probably wasn't alive throughout the original series. They probably brought her back for the Time War. -- Noneofyourbusiness 14:50, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Relatives category
Although we have Julie and RTD says she's the Doctor's mother, until it is actually stated as such in either an episode or some other media (novel, comic, etc) we can't put her in the "Relatives of the Doctor" category yet. For all we know Moffat may decide that she's Romana or Susan or the Doctor's wife instead. 23skidoo 02:14, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Her manager said she is the Doctor's mother too. Moffat doesn't intend to go back and reveal things like this on-screen because he wants to tell new stories, so it may never be said on-screen. However, if the producers and her manager confirmed it, ACCEPT IT. That is just the way it is. All sources have sited her as the Doctor's mother even before the episode aired, too. No point in trying to bypass it.

It was even said that the nature of the episode is that it was a mother [the Woman] helping her son [the Doctor] make the right choice and save humanity. And she is seen to be ver caring of the Doctor in the same fashion as a mother would be to a son. Delton Menace 10:41, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Stop freaking denying things in the commentary! God, what is it with fans and denying the obvious (IE, Jack being the Face of Boe)!? She. Is. His. Mother. --Golden Monkey 13:54, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

It was stated in the commentry with RTD eventually agreeing that it was most likely the doctors mother although it has not been 100 per cent confirmed - even RTD hasn't decided listen to the commentry people

And let's not foreget the Writer's Tale. -- Noneofyourbusiness 20:34, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Now that I think about it...She can't possibly even be a Timelord. I'm going with the White Gaurdian. If Rassilon himself needed to send a white star to the Master on earth to establish a link on which they could travel and break out of the time lock which was the time war, then how I ask how can ANY other Timelord travel to Earth and have a chat with Wilf, unless she is actually the White Gaurdian? I don't care who says what, or spills the beans saying it was his Mother. Because it contradicts the Time Lock and all scripts from Doc 9 & 10. Huh.....like that's never happened before!

Julie Gardner
If it's said in the commentary, it's canon, stop denying it. I put back in the proper categories. --Golden Monkey 13:55, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Golden Monkey. There should be a policy for that on the wiki... Confirmed in commentery and/or interview = canon. Unfortunateloy, people just don't listen to what the writers and producers, and even her manager say. It is very irritating. An example is that it was confirmed long ago that Lucy Saxon didn't pick up the ring, but no one listened to what they said but me. And then the episode airs, and they realise the truth. Delton Menace 19:01, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * There absolutely, positively should not be such a policy. In fact, I think current policy does not consider interviews and commentaries higher sources of information than the episodes themselves, and that's how it should be. Producers are inveterate liars when asked about their work in a public interview. They're using the media to spin something. Listen to the recent Who on Who for RTD frankly admitting this. We should not and cannot take information that is not in an episode as superior to what is in an episode.


 * And what's in this episode? Wilf directly asking the Doctor who The Woman was, and the Doctor deliberately not answering. That's all that matters. No matter what's said in commentaries, the writer went out of his way to create ambiguity, so the answer to the question, "Who is The Woman?" can only be, "I do not know."


 * All the rest is spin. But you know what? I've listened to the commentary with great, great care and, in the words of RTD, "I think you're mad". At no point does RTD ever definitively back away from the ambiguity he so deliberately scripted. See more details below.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 03:51, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the fact that what gets said in the commentary and what gets said in Doctor Who Confidential pointedly contradict each other.
 * Not to mention the fact that what gets said in the commentary and what gets said in Doctor Who Confidential pointedly contradict each other.

.

= Noticed Something =

When I watched episode in full for the second time today, I noticed when she removes the hands from her face and looks at the Doctor she actually gives him an eye signal (like a "pst look over there"). I might be interpreting it wrong but it seems to me he decided to shoot the machine because she gave him the (better) idea and not because he noticed her crying. It's not a huge detail but it kind of puts perspective of how the Doctor was thinking at the moment or rather how he was not. Plus, mother knows best even when it's the Doctor.

I noticed her eye signal, too. When he is looking at her she keeps moving her eyes towards where the Master was standing, and that is when he turnes around one final time. It was what you could see as her guding him to make the right choice, a very mother/son relationship thing, I might add. Like she was looking out for him. Delton Menace 20:24, January 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * I noticed that too, but I thought it was just a nod of encouragment.--WarGrowlmon18 21:22, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

NOT confirmed in the commentary
In the commentary, Julie Gardner (who is not a writer on the show, or someone with control over the show's canon) says it is her personal opinon/wish that the woman be the Doctor's mother, and RTD flat out disagrees.

Julie: "Look, it's the Doctor's mother." RTD: "Really? Is it?" Julie: "I think it is." RTD: "I don't know, Julie." Julie: "I am of one mind." RTD: "I think you've gone mad."

My opinion is that she is his mother, but the commentary does not by any means confirm that. 80.44.181.49 00:26, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

However, she tells him to just accept it or something along the likes of that. Later, he does. She later refers to her genrally as the Doctor's mother, and he can be heard now agreeing. Also, the actresses manger said the woman who plays the Woman is the Doctor's mother, as well as multiplke sources. Delton Menace 00:30, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even Gardner isn't as sure as you're making her out to be. Not that it matters, really, cause all that matters is what's on screen, but at one point (36:10) the commentary goes:


 * JG: "They all go for the Doctor's mother, but here's enough doubt for it to be a much wider and open . . . "
 * RTD: ". . . whatever you want."
 * Also I take issue with Delton Menace's characterization that RTD can "be heard now agreeing" with JG's "Doctor's mother" assertion. I never got the impression he was ever giving up on the ambiguity he had deliberately written in to the script. Please post proof or retract. Need a time code for this moment where RTD definitively says "Yes, that's the Doctor's mother."  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 03:36, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor hasn't got a mother!
As per the novel Lungbarrow, he was created out of a Loom possibly re-loomed, rather, as a reformation of The Other. As such, he's not got a Mother.
 * By that token, the books from the same (or other, I'm not sure) line make reference to a mother,, but until it's confirmed either way it should remain sepculation. At the least, she's important to the Doctor, leave it at that for now Also, just beacause he was loomed(which may not even be canon) doesn't mean he can't have an actual family, as he references having a brother . Excalibur-117 21:09, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

Also remember that just because an opinion was given in a commentary does -not- make it canon.

I was under the impression that that looms were uncanon in the televised doctor who, as the doctor talks about being a parent and having brothers. Maybe I don't fully understand them and their history, I've never read the novel. Angel Jack July 7, 2010

date of episode
The article previously mentioned that the first time she appeared was Dec 23 2010. I changed this to 2009 since that is the obvious timing for the episode. Is there some specific reason to think that this Christmas was a year ahead? --Jdvelasc 18:58, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

There is none... The Next Doctor took place in the past, which allowed The End of Time to take place on Christmas 2009. However, this also places Planet of the Dead and The Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 in 2009, too. But they pretty much fit.

Children of Earth was September 2009, SJA series 3 October and November 2009, The End of Time December 2009. Both this years and last years stories take place in the same year as part of Russell T. Davies cleaning things up for Moffat. Seriues 5 Doctor Who seemingly spans 2010. Also, there was apparantly a moment in commentary where Donna's second wedding taking place in early 2010 (spring) was mentioned. People don't realise how the timeline is in sync as of now. All they needed to do was date this year's stories ina certain was to have them take place in the same year as last years stories. Delton Menace 04:35, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just responding to Jdvelasc's question in a slightly simpler fashion, the original date given was based upon the fact that the first 4 seasons established (and maintained) that events on "present day" Earth take place one year ahead. This is due to the events of Aliens of London which took place in 2006, but was produced in 2005. Beginning with Children of Earth, and continuing with The End of Time (not so much Planet of the Dead, except that it clearly takes place post-Journey's End per character dialogue about planets in the sky) the timeline has apparently been resynchronized so that "present day" stories are once again taking place in the year they're broadcast. 23skidoo 23:18, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Penelope Gate?
A user has added a note in Behind the scenes suggesting one of the novels identified the Doctor's mother by the name Penelope Gate. This is news to me. I've added a "fact" tag, and have also asked the editor who placed it to provide a source, but if anyone knows what novel(s) are being talked about, we need a citation. And if such a character was introduced in the novels, I think she warrants an article. 23skidoo 23:14, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Flavia
Maybe it was the presence of Flavia's Theme throughout the episode, but my first guess was that she was Flavia. Of course any episode having to do with Gallifrey, Time Lords, or regeneration would have Flavia's Theme in the background through much of the episode. 67.67.216.136 19:22, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Behind the Scenes is flooded!
Every single thing in the behind the scenes is all about the same thing, and it's completely flooded. It's huge, almost bigger than her article itself. And it's all about the same thing. I suggest we just clear it all up into one behind the scenes info for her relationship with the Doctor, one thing mentioning the things that sourced her as his mother all together, instead of sepperate and all the speculation. Delton Menace 03:00, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Question: when Wilf asks the Doctor who the woman is and the Doctor declines to answer, people have been putting it down to unwillingness to discuss it. However, I don't recall she and the Doctor ever interacting, so could the Doctor's "refusal" to answer be more along the lines of him wondering what woman Wilf is talking about?

Weeping Angles reference
I just watched the two part special, "The End of Time", and loved it. I'm wondering though if "The Woman" is somehow connected to the Weeping Angels? I'm sure I heard the President make a reference to them just before he and his select council transported from Gallifrey to Earth. (Something about bring these two weeping angels with us ... referring to the two dissenters, "The Woman", being one of those.)

If you study their posture during the whole time while they were in the lab on Earth, they were mimicking the deportment of the weeping angels. When "The Woman" uncovered her eyes, indeed she was weeping, and when the Doctor said look out - I thought it was because he recognized her as a weeping angel, and that something was going to happen imminently.

Since no one else has mentioned this connection, or theory, perhaps I'm off in left field - but - thought it was worth mentioning, and hoping someone else has some thoughts along this line.

74.12.235.19 02:21, June 27, 2010 (UTC)uptergroveGreg

I believe that the line where Rassilon mentions the Weeping Angels was something along the lines of: "Only two voted against, and will stand as monument to their shame, like the Weeping Angels of old." 96.50.150.81 01:09, July 12, 2010 (UTC)