Talk:Amy's Choice (TV story)

Synopsis
Where is it from? DuduDoctor 18:26, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

--I agree, ive had to change this twice now. While the title is confirmed i havent seen anyplot details. Should we just keep changing it ?


 * Please remember to sign all posts with . Tardis1963 22:42, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Redhead remark
The Dreamlord says 'The Doctor loves a Redhead' to Amy Pond referencing the Master in The End of Time saying 'Oh, he love's playing with Earth girls' in a reference to Donna Noble and Sarah Jane Smith.

Dream Lord or Nightmare Man ?
SJA series 4 has a Nightmare Man story. Could this be a coincidence or the same adversary as the rumoured Dream Lord in this episode? 86.26.137.154 08:40, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

In the next time trailer, the Dream Lord says something like 'you're the time lord, let's call me the dream lord' which implies that is not who / what he really is 86.26.137.154 07:34, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

It turns out that the 'Dream Lord' is actually the Doctor. Alpha111 19:08, May 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Due to the fact that Matt Smith will be in SJA series 4, it's possible Dream Lord could re-emerge as the 'Nightmare Man'. Don't see how as of yet though. Adam 148 20:44, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Pregnant?
Is Amy pregnant with the Doctor's child?71.161.234.46 07:20, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

All we know is that Amy is shown to be pregnant. Considering the presumptive villian in this episode is a man called the Dream Lord, we can't take anything at face value, can we? We don't know if Amy is pregnant with Rory or The Doctor's child. We'll just have to wait and see (or wait for spoilers, as River would say!) Musedae 16:23, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

The trailer implies that the "future" Amy is just a dream. As she is seen with Rory, the assumption is that its his child (they've been married for 5 years). Jedman67 06:21, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Remember I posted that a week ago. Actually, after I posted that, I rememebred that Pyria (gotta check her name) cursed the Time Lords with sterility, which is why they use the looms. Anyway, it could all be a dream, don't forget! Musedae 14:25, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Unless it was mentioned onscreen, you can't take it at face value. Remember that Hartnell's granddaughter was with him in the TARDIS; the only mention of looms is in some of the novels - which have been known to take some liberties with canon. Jedman67 05:20, May 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also in the next time trailer, Amy is pregnant in the village but not in the Tardis. Not so clear if Rory only has the ponytail in the village 86.26.137.154 07:31, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

The Big Bang
If it is five years into Amy's future, what happened about the big bang that happened five years ago? Did the Doctor stop it or something like that? Who7 11:57, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps Amy's future is just a dream, and her, the Doctor and Rory may are sleeping in the TARDIS a few hours after the end of "Vampire of Venice" as seen in the trailer. That could explain why Amy is not pregnant in the TARDIS and her 'heartbreaking choice' might be to choose between her little family dream, or the reality...we'll see... Sam122 15:37, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Sacrifice
As seen in the promotional picture for this episode, there is a car right behind the Doctor and Amy, and Amy look worried. Do you think the Doctor and Amy sacrifice their lives so they wake up in the strange dream? Who7 12:02, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

It seems that there is no drivers in the car, so I don't think that the Doctor and Amy will let themselves get crushed.. Sam122 21:25, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

The way it's been edited, seems as though the Doctor is seen driving the same vehicle over a bridge in the trailer 86.26.137.154 07:40, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I think the sacrifice is that, if the Leadworth family dream ends, Amy's baby will never be born. MidnightCat 15:53, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

She didn't seem all that bothered about it. Maybe it was that she was just convinced it wasn't real anyways Carnivius Prime 18:39, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

My Theory
The is two worlds: The TARDIS and the village.

Only one is real.

The other is a dream.

Amy has to kill herself in the dream so she can wake up in reality.

If she chooses the wrong one shes die.RPSMan 15:10, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

This is going to be like Pyramids of Mars where the Doctor had to choose between pressing one switch or the other - if he makes a mistake Sarah will die. He could ask the lying Robot or the truthful Robot one question - so he asked one of them "What would the other say?" - which guaranteed a lying response and he picked the correct switch. I think here Doctor & Co will have to make a choice based on combining reality and fantasy together - and then the choice will be clear. Idji 11:29, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Digital Spy / SFX Spoilers
1

1 It’s a very clever (cleverer than you might think at first) and unusual script, slightly let down by some pedestrian direction that doesn’t always achieve quite the right tone for what could be a much darker, creepier tale…

2 The Doctor wears the kind of jumper you hope your nan won’t buy you for Christmas

3 There are no plot holes

4 There’s an interesting use of a hover mower

5 You’re probably tired of hearing this every week, but it’s Matt Smith’s best performance yet. He really seems to thrive in quirky episodes

6 You get a good chance to study the new TARDIS set

7 There‘s a great “we’ve second guessed you” moment with the Doctor waving his hand

8 There may be complaints that it encourages spitting

9 Amy’s second false alarm amusingly sends up the Doctor’s arrogance

10 Once again it’s packed with quotable one-liners, especially the sentence that begins, “If we’re going to die, let’s die looking like…” (which could also spark a whole new trend in cosplaying)

11 The Doctor opens a black box that has some information written on it which will have fans hitting the freeze frame

12 Toby Jones has about a zillion costume changes (and he’s great)

What says you? Musedae 18:01, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

1. Agreed, very clever and very unusual.

2. Ha, Mrs Poggit's jumper for her grandson. Eugh.

3. We'll be the judge of that.

4. As a weapon by one of the old people.

5. I think he was great, not his best, there was less humour, but great nonetheless.

6. Yup, quite a bit of close ups on it.

7. Can't think of that bit... yet...

8. I can see why.

9. Love how she does that.

10. "Ask me what happens if you die in reality." "What happens?" "You die stupid, that's why it's called reality."

And this one : "If we're going to die, let's die looking like a Peruvian folk band." 90.24.22.123 12:12, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

11. Did I miss it? I can't recall it.

12. Yup, the Tardis version, doctor version, oap version, butcher.

Mc hammark 20:30, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding no. 11: (SPOILERS!)

TARDIS

TIME AND RELATIVE DIMENSION IN SPACE

BUILD SITE: GALLIFREY BLACKHOLE SHIPYARD

TYPE 40 BUILD DATE: 1963

AUTHORISED FOR USE BY QUALIFIED TIME LORDS ONLY

BY THE SHADOW PROCLAMATION

*Something that's too small for me to read*

Throan Loremaker 22:42, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

2016
The episode is actually set in 2016 becuse Amy appeers in season 32 in 201185.250.46.91 17:59, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

It could be in 2017 or above because Any might stay on doctor who for more than 2 seasons. Alpha111 19:06, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

The time when Amy and the Doctor parted ways in the "Upper Leadworth" world is all part of a dream with implanted memories, so has been made up essentially, it doesn't need to be accurate to the seasons that Karen is doing. TomJ 23:00, May 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering the whole thing was a dream while still in the TARDIS, none of it took place in 2015/16/17. DigiFluid 06:36, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Notices
Has anyone noticed that there are birds twittering (continuity) and at the end instead of the doctor's reflections there is the his dream lord dark side (he's still dreaming)? Dwfan100

Entire episode inside the TARDIS?
Now, can we say that this entire episode took place inside the TARDIS? Although there were scenes filmed in different places, Amy, the Doctor and Rory weren't even there, they never left the TARDIS. So can we say that this episode took place entirely within the TARDIS? Mc hammark 20:38, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Hadn't thought about that til you pointed it out but yeah I guess you're right. Carnivius Prime 20:49, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Crack
I didnt see one in this episode, anyone else see one? 83.104.138.141 03:13, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

youre right, i dont think there is one - was there one in venice? Jedman67 05:23, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

There was one in venice but i didn't see one the episode. Alpha111 06:48, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

The only "real" place in the episode was the TARDIS. There couldn't be a crack there or in the dreams. Grimmreapervi 10:05, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Why is there a "Possible Crack" Picture? They can't dream of Cracks, can they? And remove the Weeping Angel Recording Crack Please, it was a two-parter, counting as one episode, with one crack. -Tom

@Tom I Have been removing both of them but the users who added them keep re-inserting them! Liamhenney 18:53, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

How very zen...
The doctor says 'there's only one person in the universe who hates me that much' to the Dream Lord. Considering the revelation that the Dream Lord is the Doctor, its painfully obvious he hasn't got over the time war, and still loathes himself. James 203.100.217.154 06:04, May 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * If the Dream Lord was formed around the Doctor's darker impulses and, yes, self-loathing that has been building from the Time War and later events (the arrogance of the Time Lord Victorious in "The Waters of Mars" for example), could he not also be compared to the Valeyard? If so, then that would add quite a bit of depth to the latter character that his original writers never envisioned. Eregor 18:58, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect alien name
Can someone please amend Plot section as it incorrectly mentions the Ha'rik which are actually not mentioned in the episode, the Doctor identifies the aliens as Ecnodeen. Was this section all just copied from the wikipedia article, which I didn't think was allowed ? 86.26.137.154 08:44, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

I have changed the plot so it is Ecnodeen not Ha'rik. Alpha111 08:51, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Amy and the Doctor's 'suicide'
When Amy crashes the van (so she can be with Rory again) wouldn't the Doctor simply regenerate? The Dream Lord says "If you die in the dream..." and regeneration isn't 100% dying. Therefore, the Doctor would have to be killed over and over again until he had reached his last incarnation and then die one more time to wake up in the TARDIS again. --CGW 10:03, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Technically regeneration is like dying. ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( Talk ) ☆
 * As I understand it, when Time Lords regenerate, they are dying, same as anyone else, except that the regeneration brings them back. But as we saw with The Master, in series 3, they can suppress the regeneration, and choose not to regenerate (although, of course, The Master then came back anyway, but that's a different subject entirely, and it's still not at all clear how that worked). Having seen how certain Amy was about dying in that dream (and having possibly already worked out that both worlds were dreams - since he'd already worked out who the Dream Lord was, and that was what he says gave away that both were dreams), it's not that unlikely that he'd suppress his regeneration. 94.172.148.89 11:21, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would anyone care about regeneration ? It was a DREAM, to get out of which they had to die (which is a real fact, btw, you can't dream of being dead, therefore, if you're dreaming of your own death, you wake up at the moment you die).
 * It was just some sort of switch, nothing more, nothing less....Málåsgløbdük 16:37, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was just some sort of switch, nothing more, nothing less....Málåsgløbdük 16:37, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Is Amy a deluded sociopath?
A great episode, but one thing bugged me: Amy says to the Doctor, "what is the point of you", after he fails to be able to bring back Rory. Now I ask, what was the point of Amy's saying that? Earlier, she had no qualms to just pass by a whole playground full of children that got vaporised, even though she's expecting a child of her own, and one could expect some kind of sympathy from any human being. Moreover, she knows that the Doctor has saved countless people and worlds before, and that there have often been massacres and deaths at the hands of evil alien forces, but that the Doctor has always been able to prevent the worst from happening. Would she really be so completely selfish and irrational that the one single death of one guy, Rory, would cause her to dismiss the Doctor entirely and question his validity as a whole?

It was said that Gwen said the same about Jack, but then Gwen is allowed to be a bit thick; but here we're presented with a supposedly super sharp girl who sees beyond the trite worries of quotidian banalities. As moving as this line may be, it is just completely out of character and ruins everything a little. It's essentially the "Darth Vader Syndrome", cf. Star Wars III in which Anakin is happy to slaughter an entire kindergarten for the chance of saving his girlfriend. It's characterization gone mad.

Maybe we can have a note that says something like "Amy was seemingly unconcerned by the mass killings of the school children earlier in the episode"... Hack59 00:16, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * She and Rory were both shocked when they realized that the "dust" was vaporized children (i figured it out in half a second, btw). And later, as she is literally on the verge of going into labor and her husband is just murdered, it seems "callous" or "uncaring" to ask a Time Lord to bring him back, and asking him that?? Jedman67 04:10, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * But she knows perfectly well that a timelord cannot just "bring back" dead people. In fact, the Doctor himself is the most dramatic manifestation of this, he cannot bring back any of the other timelords. Asking him to help is not callous or uncaring, but dismissing the entire Doctor outright ("Then what is the point of you?") based on his inability to save one person and forgetting the myriads of peoples he did save just appears a bit deluded to me. Nobody who knows a little bit about the Doctor would just dismiss him like that, I would have thought. Hack59 12:06, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * IMHO the 'what is the point of you' line is a reference to Moffats thing about 'nobody dies today' and then promising to kill lots of people of this series. I reckon it will be picked up on in the finale with the resolution of the doctor revisiting as per eg the reappearing jacket bit in Flesh and Stonej when he talks to Amy, (discussed in the Howling as thread '5 things to look for: finale doctor') since he knows time can be rewritten etc etc, so he can actually save all the people who have died this series to reconcile with Moffats love of nobody dying.Within the rationale of this episode however, it's using the Doctor's guilt about people he has lost himself and worse letting his companions down and being helpless when he can't save the most important thing to them. Eg he was very distressed about Octavian's death and seemingly not affected by the loss of the rest of the clerics apart from Bob. Any thoughts? 86.26.137.154 07:48, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see the problem. She didn't know the kids or have any attachment to them though she did show shock when realising they were the dustpiles. Her reaction to the Doctor was over the fact she'd just seen her husband die right before her eyes. A man she'd known and cared about for many years.  Whether she meant it or not doesn't matter. People say all sorts of stuff when grieving over a loved one. Carnivius Prime 10:47, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand that as an angry spur-of-the-moment remark, it would have been nothing important, but she did seem quite composed when she said it, and anyway, isn't your "she didn't know them" argument exactly what I called "selfishness"? She could have gone to each dustpile and said, "bring him back", and then "so what's the point of you", but she didn't. I know why it works for the drama of the episode, but it's a pretty disappointing charaterisation of Amy -- I would have expected better from her... Hack59 12:06, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

==== Why?====

Didn't the Doctor try to enter the Tardis in the Town Dream?
 * To what purpose? He obviously was able to be in that Tardis because in that dream he arrived in the Tardis. Anyway, I think more clues as to whether that world was real would be found outside the Tardis. V00D00M0NKY 07:26, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Better Doctor?
While i thought this was an intriguing episode; it just felt a little lacking. For the first time since The Eleventh Hour, i miss David Tennant - i think he could have made this episode work much better. Jedman67 04:13, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the episode worked perfectly with the Eleventh Doctor. Toby Jones I thought perfectly hit(with a deliberate twist) what the personality and mannerisms of the Eleventh Doctor are supposed to be like. The Eleventh Doctor is characterized like an middle age/older eccentric man who just happens to be in a young mans body. Toby Jones portays The Dream Lord as a middle age eccentric man, who just happens to be evil. Since The Dream Lord is the Doctor's dark side the two of them played extremely well off each other. The Eleventh Doctor is often harsh and abrasive but he is never cruel, The Dream Lord is cruel. I don't think this would have worked as well with David Tennant because The Dream Lord doesn't fit with the Tenth Doctor's personality. The opposite of the Tenth Doctor is the John Simm incarnation of The Master anyway so doing a dark-side of the Tenth Doctor would either be a)too much like John Simm's The Master or b)too much like the Doctor very briefly at the end of The Waters of Mars, it could still have worked but it would have lost something. That is my two cents on the subject anyway.Doorofnight 05:58, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think he'd have made any better job of it than Smith did. But then that might just be me having gotten tired of Tennant's acting style and enjoying Smith's so much more Carnivius Prime 10:43, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't that a "can't lose" game?
Seems to me like the Dream Lord's game was impossible to lose, since both worlds were fake. Assume that what the Dream Lord said was true, and you really do wake up in reality if you die in the dream, couple that with the fact that the TARDIS crew faced immediate deadly dangers in both worlds, and it seems like, even if they had died "properly" in both worlds, the game would simply have ended. By dying "properly," I mean falling into the cold star and getting turned to dust. Is this plausible? Memcginn 06:47, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * It makes perfect sense if you think about it. The Dreamlord has absolutely no interest or intention of destroying the Doctor and his companions. First off, as the Doctor's dark side he want to torment them. Second, since he is the Doctor and only exists in the Doctor's mind(in a sense this entire episode might almost be said to take place in the Doctor's mind since a psychic spore manifesting itself in a mind as powerful as a Time Lord's might explain the extreme power and detail of the dreams and why Amy and Rory are both experiencing the Doctor's darkness.) Third, as is stated in the episode, the Dreamlord is trying to convince them that one world is real and the other fake, when they chose the Tardis as the real world he claims defeat, repowers the Tardis, and moves them away from the Cold Star. The reason for this is that he hopes they'll accept that world as real and treat it as real, the longer they dream the longer the Dreamlord lives, since he essentially dies if they wake up, hence why the 'game' the Dreamlord plays is "can't lose" from the players perspective, based on the rules the Dreamlord gives them but is 'can't lose' in the Dreamlords perspective given what is actually going on, they only get out of it when the Doctor works out the game and ends it completely.Doorofnight 07:15, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

There is a crack...
Take a look around 18 mins in, when The Doctor looks at the Tardis monitor. The nebula visible has the same shape as the crack (but tilted and reversed - are we looking at it from the other side?)

Paulhath 11:42, May 17, 2010 (UTC)