Talk:The Big Bang (TV story)

Everything Changes
At the end of the episode, River tells the Doctor "and that's when everything changes". This has to be a reference to Torchwood, right? 72.218.226.7 00:07, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The reference appeared to be to the Doctor himself and not to Earth.122.105.223.16 10:31, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Don't know where to put this so here's as good a place as any. Can I point out that Amy does not break the fourth wall at the end of the episode, she is saying goodbye to Leadworth and her life in it.

Musings
Is anyone else wondering why the Tardis would be so powerful when it gets destroyed, I mean surely a fair few tardises would have been blown up during the time war, thus a hellova lot of universe ending explosions

I don't think they actually ever confirm that in the episode.DragonHunter62 20:06, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

And we don't know the circumstances which caused it to explode... the circumastances may have caused the explosion to be multiplkied... -Si Iway amway Ichamousacoricothingmabobsay. http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/e4/Si_HTL_Seal_Leader.PNG 21:44, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * The difference here seems to be that the TARDIS is exploding everywhere, in all times, at once. It isnt just one powerful explosion but an infinate number of explosions happening throughout, well infinity.173.57.144.238 07:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Another possible explanation is that the Doctor has been known to modify the TARDIS, which has also been known to be a defective TARDIS, and presumably Time Lords had fail safes in place to prevent disasters. It is possible that the fail safes on the Doctor's TARDIS are compromised or were purposefully removed by the Doctor.

Blanket
The blanket Amy is wearing in "The Pandorica Opens" is identical to the one she is wearing in "Amy's Choice", and it didn't come out of the tardis?

What could this mean? 94.7.219.130 15:36, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Joe

She was wearing a poncho in Amy's Choice, not a blanket, which was grey, not the same colour as the blanket. I doubt it means anything. Sorry :-) MidnightCat 16:18, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

as well as what is above it could mean that that have the blanket in the romen timesrebecca wiseman 06:44, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Episode Length
A press release has confirmed that the episode will last 55 minutes from 6:05-7:00

The Dream Lord
The Dream Lord was just the "bad side" of the doctor, if you remember, so the rumour doesn't make ANY sense.94.7.219.130 15:36, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Joe

For now and unmessyness
Until it confirmed and the episode airs it is hard to determine which aliens who are appearing will be a villain/enemy so I have placed all confirmed appearances of previous aliens in the story notes section until it is actually confirmed who will be the villains as it helps to stop people messing with the infobox. -- Michael Downey 11:54, May 22, 2010 (UTC).

Omega and Dark Tower/Death Zone
See Talk:The Pandorica Opens. Whatever is done with these rumors, let's make sure that the two pages are kept in sync. --Falcotron 07:26, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Its not Omega, it is 'The Monk', who is responsible for Stonehenge and its consrtuction. Listen to the voice again, the one which repeates 'Silence will Fall' numersously in the TARDIS, when River has no control======Sontar HA========

Monster Names
I've fixed up all the aliens confirmed to appear on the "enemy" bit on the infobox. If you have any other names of monsters please put them down along with a reference. ~ BillyWilliam3rd

Rory
Why did someone remove Rory from the cast? We know he's appearing. Weren't there even pictures of him in it? He may have died, but still: wibbly wobbly timey wimey. --Golden Monkey 20:35, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

I bet there is evidence that Rory is gonna appear (not that I took him off cast) but wherez the evidence? ~ BillyWilliam3rd


 * I'm not sure who removed him here. I added him, with a reference, at the same time I removed him from episode 12 (because all of the spoilery evidence given for him was from episode 13, not 12).


 * However, thinking about it some more, we don't actually have confirmation (at least in any of the spoilers I've seen) that Rory appears in episode 13. There are pictures confirming that Arthur Darvill appears, in Roman armor (one source specifically says Roman auxiliary armor), but that doesn't prove that he's Rory. Sure, it seems the most likely explanation, but think of Princess Astra and Romana II, Maxil and the 6th Doctor, Gwynneth and Gwen, Adeola and Martha, the Soothsayer and Amy Pond, and probably more that I've forgotten. In many cases, there's a connection of some kind between the characters (Romana deliberately patterning herself on Astra, Martha having a Patty-Duke-like identical cousin, Gwen having a not-genetic-relative-but-some-weird-rifty-thing, etc.), but in some there's not even that.


 * Still, it seems reasonable to at the very least least add Arthur Darvill to the Cast playing "TBA (possibly Rory Williams)", with the same reference that he had before, and then put some discussion of whether he's Rory or not in the Rumours section.


 * Alternatively, I'd list him as Rory, and then add a Rumour that he might be some character other than Rory. After all, it's always possible that even the 11th Doctor won't be there and Matt Smith will just happen to be playing some random character. How far do we have to go with our skepticism? --Falcotron 10:44, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Shots of filming
Without trying to throw out spoilers, a couple of leaked filming shots snuck out today on a few websites show Patrick Stewart's presence clearly on the set for this episode...what's the policy of posting in regards to such matters? Are we a) not allowed to mention, b) allowed to mention and source c) post the images proper and mention. Ostensibly, I'll do whatever the guidance is....unless someone sees the shots before me and gets there first! Roger Dangerfield 11:23, May 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's already a big giant spoiler warning at the top of the page, and the article is already full of spoilers and even random rumours. So, don't worry about adding it. And definitely source it.


 * The only question is how reliable the source is, and how clear it is that Patrick Stewart is in the episode vs., say, just visiting the set. Make the best guess you can on those questions and decide whether to put it in Rumours or to add him to the Cast. --Falcotron 11:55, May 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * One more question: Does he look like he's dressed as the Meddling Monk? (Remember that Sun rumor that Stewart would play the Monk in the finale of David Tennant's season 5, which came out days before it was announced that no such season would exist?) --Falcotron 22:39, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Theory
I think that Amy, as a child, may have to "think away" the other aliens etc, and the Doctor free, as the summary says "The only hope for all of reality is a little girl....", however, this is only my theory. :P Because the alliance used Amy's memories of Romans and Pandora's Box to create the scenario, therefore, if Amy thinks of a different ending... It'll happen. :P ~Random non-member, came to add my thoughts. ^^

dr gachet
is this an error becuse dr gachet is vincent van goths docter isent he so unless the doc goes back to ask about the painting that vincent did this colud be a error (now i am starting to make myself belvie this happens)

?Drwhoworld 22:14, June 3, 2010 (UTC)?

No, Dr Gachet and Madam Vernet must have something to do with the VG picture being sent to the doctor? 86.26.137.154 08:33, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks

?Drwhoworld 09:19, June 4, 2010 (UTC)?

Doctor Gachet and Madame Vernet were seen at the very start of The Pandorica Opens when Van Gogh was screaming

DBuddy 18:57, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

The picture got to the doctor like this.:madame vernet and dr gachet or some other person(?)put it in an attic,then it was found and went to dr bracewell and churchill,then churchill phoned the time vortex but the tardis rerouted it to stormcage and river song had it,then she escaped and went to the royal collection and showed it to liz ten(after taking it from there)then she made the tardis go to rome(?MAybe)and then she was there and Ta-Da there you go(unregistered)

Flesh & Stone
Remember the Doctor going to Amy in Flesh and Stone and he looked diffrent? New clothes, difrent attidue, etc? Possibly going back to the events of this story and giving Amy words of advice for this episode.

Jfraser25 13:00, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

I am really annoyed that they have no Weeping Angels in it,because they are my faverioute enemy!!!:( OGREPOP 09:36, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Something no one noticed but was shown in The Lodger: head-butt! Remember, he bumped heads and communicated a lot of info real fast? Just looked at the scene in Flesh & Stone and the Doctor gently bumps his head several times to Amy's and tells her to remember. I think he passed her a lot of information to help him be remembered by Amy. Lmb02 05:05, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Though, the doctor did say he will never use that method ever again in the lodger. Alpha111 19:17, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

i am meant to be logged in but i said i loved weeping angels but now i know why its not in there.the alliance are petrified,and when you look at an angel,they are petrified anyway so,thats why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

Picture
The picture in this article is not to do with The Big Bang. It is of The Pandorica Opens. I just saw the same scene image only a side view on the website. Kranitoko (talk) 17:22, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Let's keep rumours clean.
It's flood with random fan speculation that isn't based on anything, or very little. Or far-ferfetched. The only heavily rumoured ultimate enemy of the finale are the Doctor and Omega, and that is based on quite a bit of released into and spoilers, so it has a right to be an official rumour on the page. The description of what is inside the Pandorica fits the description of the Doctor... and he is shown being dragged to the Pandorica in a released picture most have seen by now. There has been a opular rumour that Omega in returning, too, and some reliable spoiler people on Gallifrey Base (these are people who, in all honestly, know quite a way ahead, some see unreleased pictures earlier on, ect..) may not know if the rumour is true or not, but they mostly say it is possibly -- nothing even they know suggests it can't be.

But ridiculous things such as the Master, who left in, what, January and the very last finale... already? Besides, that's one of those silly random fan-boy-fueled rumours that aren't based on anything, be it set reports, spoilers, or episode information. Let's keep it at individuals who are heavily rumoured, and not just fanboy wants. Delton Menace 22:44, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes this is similair to the enemy section. I have repeatedly kept it as "TBC" as even though there are many aliens/monsters mentioned and confirmed to appear, nothing is confirmed whether they are to play an enemy part so until Saturday or proper confirmation this should be kept clean. -- Michael Downey 23:50, June 13, 2010 (UTC).

Yeah, it should be noted that some of the aliens featured in the finale don't have large roles (there are too many for them all to have notable roles!), just that there is appearances. All together, gathering at Stonehenge. An interview I found linked to on a Gallifrey Base friend even notes that the Daleks and Cybermen aren't even big players in the finale, or something like that. They play a part, obviously, but they're not the shine of the episodes. Their role is just bigger than that of the other's. Good you kept the enemies part clean, because... info is really implying it's not everyone vs. the Doctor. Well, sort of. But it is safe to say something else is going on, and none of us have any idea what it really is. Hence, I'm expecting one, true enemy, who is currently not confirmed. Delton Menace 01:09, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Theres a typo error in the rummors section. They will might appear? It should be they will/might appear K-9 mark 5 19:06, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Moffat's "cheeky" Regeneration solution?
Moffat was quoted as saying he was going to solve the problem of the Doctor running out of regenerations in a "cheeky" way. And from what I understood, it would be in this series. And with this being the last part of this series, I would guess it gets solved in this episode. And likely by (we presume it's) Amelia thinking a change of some sort (as it seems Amy's childhood and thoughts are the building blocks of the reality... this better not end like "St. Elsewhere" did, where the whole show was an autistic kid's dream)..

Just wondering if anyone has heard any more on what the "cheeky" solution is. I'm hoping it's not by saying one or more regenerations never happened. Still, it's an impending problem for the show, and better to solve it now than wait until they've run out of regenerations and require an even greater suspension of disbelief than fans would allow.

Posting here rather than the actual page, assuming if it's appropriate someone will either migrate this to the actual page or suggest I do so. Lmb02 04:27, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

I would imagine that a nice "cheeky" way would be simply to have whoever the mysterious voice way -- hopefully a time lord say a nice one-liner about how "Gallifrey and Rassilon are gone, so those rules never apply", and then writeing it off. Incredebly short and simple, as well as plausible.

Theory - The Pandorica keeps you alive, forever! We know that from spoilers and that Amy will be resurrected, so whenever the doctor is mortally wounded, hops into the Pandorica, released by companion, ta-daaa! Live forvever!

One possibility: The Doctor had never ever existed before Amy's wedding, so perhaps this is now his first life? Fnarg! Agonaga 00:34, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I disagree. When he was speaking to Amelia, at his last stop in his rewind, he told stories of his previous regenerations. Her memories assisted in extrapolating the entire Universe from the matter inside the Pandorica. The Doctor is still on his tenth regeneration/eleventh body. I figure that something will grant him a new life cycle, like what the Time Lords promised the Master in "The Five Doctors." There will still be a limit. It will just be postponed. Memcginn 07:58, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * it could be lime it says in the regeneration aricle, Rassilon could have given him a new set of regenerations so he could fight in the time war, but he might not be aware of it if he was a renegade 217.23.232.194 09:13, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * One cheeky solution would be for the Doctor to be shot with some alien weapon at the end of an episode, to look like he was going to be forced to regenerate or even to die, but then simply to channel the energy into a future series of regenerations and to stand up.
 * One cheeky solution would be for the Doctor to be shot with some alien weapon at the end of an episode, to look like he was going to be forced to regenerate or even to die, but then simply to channel the energy into a future series of regenerations and to stand up.

Stone Dalek
How is that any "less absurd"? A Dalek with a stone casing, though really unusual, makes much more sense than a Dalek turned into stone, unless you refer to the creature inside instead of the machine. Where does that rumour come from anyway and why is it not in the "rumours" section? 83.181.66.133 10:04, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * A new Dalek will be seen, a Stone Dalek. Or, less absurdly, a Dalek will be turned to stone.

A picture of a stone Dalek was released, along with several other leaked photos, about a week ago (DoctorWhoTV has the pics). The Nth Doctor 20:54, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it more likely that someone has just made a stone sculpture of a Dalek? MidnightCat 16:22, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

The pictures leaked show it moving along and changing position so not a sculpture. Probably a sentry in the museum to stop the Doctor escaping like the Cyberman under stonehenge

It is in the Pandoric with the doctor cause when they're in the Pandoric it's like the Death zone like nobody can get out and a dalek chasing them Torchwood Member 17:25, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Found this :http://combom.doctorwhonews.info/pictures/bbcleaked/d11s01e12_13_art_10.jpg Possibly the mysterious "Stone Dalek"? - Amuseme543

And this: http://combom.doctorwhonews.info/pictures/leaked%20images/3a.jpg

And this as well: http://combom.doctorwhonews.info/pictures/leaked%20images/3b.png

Another Tardis?
I think that there is another contraption similar to the one we have seen in the episode of "The Lodger" in Amy's house. As can be seen in both "The Pandorica Opens" and "The Eleventh Hour", Amy's house is a two stores home, yet, in the first episode of this series, around the 13 minutes mark ("there's something I'm missing" - he keeps repeating that alot lately, hasn't he?), and especially around the 18 minutes mark (in which there's a clear lower angle shot) there's a staircase from the second floor to an unknown, rather dark, place. WhtRvn 10:26, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * (in reply to the above comment) You are really on to something here, he says to Amy 'doesn't it bother you that your life does not make sense?' (The Pandorica Opens) and then keeps reiterating about why she has so many rooms in her house, remember, when she was little she was on her own, when she is older, again, she is on her own. Possibly, and this is a rumour (although it is founded on evidence found throughout the series, and built on the above comment) she has always been on 'her own', she may have never had parents or family but she just beleived she did, because she cannot remember her past e.g. like the Doctor with the 'family of blood' and the Master in 'Utopia' via the 'fobwatch'. Thus, this 'house' which seems so important, and has been 'broken into' could well hold a 'tardis' within, such as is seen in the Lodger. It may well be just a bungalo, like every other in 'Ledworth' and the 'top floor' is just a 'Tardis' with undoubtedly functional 'chameleon circuit'. However, all this is theory (I beleive it to be true) but could well explain why Joanne Page is reported to be in the 'Big Bang', could she be a 'regenerated' Amy Pond? If so, this begs the question, who is she? Is she going to be a new charachter (possibly the Ha'Rik?!), or an already known timelady, such as well Romanna, the Rani, or even the unknown timelady in the 'End of Time'. It would also explan why River Song acted so coy to Amy Pond and also why she said she learnt how to fly the TARDIS from the 'best' and also added (in reply to the Doctor) 'shame you were not around that day'. Again this is just theory, but seeing as this is a 'DISCUSSION' page i thought i would throw it out there, please do not attack me, but if anyone wants to comment or reply on this, please do =====- 'Sontar HA'=====
 * Unfortunately, Joanna Page has denied being in the episode. 79.72.221.114 21:00, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, in "The Pandorica Opens" River Song admits that she, in fact, did learn to fly the Tardis from the Doctor.

(in response to the above) Well, I only used the Joanna Page because it was rumoured, but the presidence still stands, she could well be a timelord or at least an entity not human. Fair enough, I must have missed that, but still it makes little difference to the overall 'rumour' I had written about====Sontar HA======

You also Have to remember that There is actuallya possible three doctors out there. With three doctors out there... It is likely that A Tardis could be pulled from one to server The needing Doctor for a short time..... Seen here in the Continuity section for The Gallifrey Chronicles Ominic 14:06, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

(responding to the first and second comment) In 'The Eleventh Hour'

- 09:33 - while Amy is talking about apples and the Doctor turns around to listen an unusual drawing on the wall is revealed. Its a drawing of a house on fire. Why would a child draw this? unless it actually happened to them it could possibly be a clue to how Amy became an orphan.


 * I think you'll find that was actually the Tardis, laying on its side with the doors open, on fire. Agonaga 00:36, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

- 18:25 - While Amy "arrests" the doctor for breaking and entering. This shot (from the doctors point of view) shows a staircase that leads straight up to the ceiling with absolutely no sign of a door or a hatch. Anyone would notice this and think it strange. but the doctor doesn't notice it instead paying attention only to Amy. (perception filter?)
 * Yes. I've already pointed that out in the first comment. Nice finding of the 9:33 mark, the drawing does seem a bit odd. WhtRvn 10:00, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, didn't the Doctor say "there's something i'm missing" because of the perception filter he sensed? Misterchrister 02:28, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Addition to casting
I can't edit this page because I'm an IP, but can someone add this to the cast? Joanna Page is listed as playing a Time Lady in both The Pandorica Opens and The Big Bang. --94.171.77.82 11:43, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have incorporated it into the article. Although she's denied appearing in the episode, it wouldn't be the first time she's misrepresented to the press to cover up storylines. I've written it in a way where it is open to interpretation whether she's in it or not, from the available sources. Blightsoot 12:11, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Imdb is user written, just as the wiki and is not a reliable source. The Thirteenth Doctor 14:47, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * IMDB is to some extent user written, but not nearly to the extent wikipedia is - it has at least got some level of editorial responsibility for such articles. That and this has been reported as a rumour in a news paper. The rest haven't so much as got a source at all. Therefore it is justified to put it in there - if we didn't have IMDB as a source, then many of the things posted in future episode articles all season would have to be removed. I'm restoring the rumour as per sources available. Blightsoot 11:26, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Unknown Entity

 * As we all know, the TARDIS goes boom at the end of 'The Pandorica Opens'/start of 'The Big Bang' when controlled by an entity so far unknown while River Song is desperately attempting to prevent this incident. All we know about this entity is that it appears so far as red lighting and a metallic voice claiming that silence will fall coming from a time-field shaped crack displayed on the TARDIS' screen. The entity seems to enter and gain control of the TARDIS when nobody is watching in 'The Pandorica Opens' when the crack appears, flashes and starts to open on the screen, however, there is evidence to suggest the TARDIS has been out of the Doctor's control for a much longer time, this whole se[[File:BBC_-_BBC_One_Programmes_-_Doctor_Who,_Series_5,_The_Eleventh_Hour_-_Google_Chrome.jpg|thumb|The doctor doesn't notice the Crack on the oscilloscope at 1:00.33 in S5E1 (The Eleventh Hour)]]ries in fact. If the entity has been inside the TARDIS since the doctor took Amy for her first trip, the Entity either entered the TARDIS shortly after the machine restabilised, is an evil streak in TARDIS' personality (like Mr. Smith from SJA) or has been dorment inside the TARDIS for a long time. SinkinSoon 13:02, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * A trace left behind from when the Master cannibilised the TARDIS, turning her into a Paradox machine?
 * "The Doctor in the TARDIS" merged i nthe regeneration. Arn't you supposed to be on the howling with us for all of this speculation? Jack Chilli.

he does but terns off the scean ay dose not seerebecca wiseman 06:47, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

The TARDIS reparing itself might of left it open to attack/posses. Alpha111 19:19, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Silurians?
So, the Silurians feature in this episode, and we've seen many of the Doctor's friends unite to send him a message... Except Eldane, who seems wise and on the Doctors side. It's possible that the Silurians returned to the surface of Earth as instructed and found the scorched ruined planet left behind by humanity (See: The Beast Below) and decided to join this evil alliance, so... If Eldane is still around, the Doctor may yet have friends he can count on. Thoughts? WeepingDevil 14:53, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

It does seem rather strange that the Silurians should join in the 'Grand Alliance' along with other notable enemies such as the Daleks, Cybermen and Sontarans. As we are well aware, the Silurians intentions are not as wicked as those of say the Daleks or the Cybermen, they are generally mis-understood if anything. I can see what you are suggesting, and although it WOULD make sense I just do not think it will be relevant to the plot-line. In fact, the whole 'alliance' is the only problem i have with the Pandorica Opens, for one, we do not (yet) know what Cybermen these are, after all, they DO look like Cybusmen, yet they seem a greater threat and the fact they have 'starships' makes little sense, especially if they ARE Cybusmen, because, how would they have the technology to build starships and what need would they have for them, never mind how they got from the parallel to our dimension. Then there are the Silurians, what need would they have to disable the Doctor, unless, they are double-bluffing? Then there are the Judoon, who if I am not mistaken are supposed to be the heavies employed by the Shadow Proclamation, who I do not thiink would ever take side with the Daleks, surely?! Therefore, i think there are real plot holes at present in this finale, especially where the 'enemies' are concerned, and it all seems a little fan-boy to me. - Sontar HA

I don't know about you, but if I learned that this ancient, powerful man who rides throughout all of time and space at will was at the centre of an explosion that would destroy all of reality, I'd team up with anyone in the universe I had to in order to prevent that. An alliance based on a single goal is far different from a permanent military alliance. The united just for this one moment, and afterwards will go their separate ways. 124.254.80.117 20:39, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

I think that too, because the Daleks want to exterminate every other species in the universe. Why are they working with other species? Misterchrister 02:41, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Question about the episode
Do we have any idea why the TARDIS (or the entity controlling it) has decided to take River Song to Amy's time? It was almost like helping the Doctor, taking River to a place that revealed to her the true nature of what was going on with the Alliance. If the entity simply wants to destroy the universe by blowing up the TARDIS, why give The Doctor that slight warning of what is happening? Any theories as to why it needs or wants to go there? WeepingDevil 14:53, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

My theory is that as i said before 'Amy's house' is in fact a hidden TARDIS. Now, I cannot be sure as to why this (beleived to be) sinister TimeLord wants to take River to the TARDIS or at least to Amy's room to show her its master plan, unless, there is a more present danger other than that of the 'alliance'. Could there be an enemy who is (like a puppet-master) bended everyone around to its will, making plans within plans to get everyone to do as it wants? I am aware how far fetched this sounds but I really think someone such as the Master, Rassilon, the Monk or Omega are behind this. Remember, 'the Monk' is responsible for creating Stonehenge (sorry forgot the reference-look up the Monk anyway). Could Moffat really be making a finale here based on plot details from near 20-30 years ago?! I would certainly not put it past him!!78.148.145.194 17:54, June 20, 2010 (UTC)Sontar HA78.148.145.194 17:54, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

The article cites citation #9 (lifetheuniverseandcombom blog) as the source for Karen Westwood as Amy Pond's mother. However, that blog itself cites imdb and tardis.wikia's own article as its sources. IMDB's page does include Karen Westwood, so citing IMDB would make sense. However, citing an article that cites your own article as its source for the same information...well I think it goes without saying that that's silly and fine for Dr. Who but not for a wiki. 72.93.185.63 22:05, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

House door
Random thoughts here, but...

Did anyone ever notice the similarity between the entry door to Amy's house and the Doctor's actual TARDIS? Same blue, same material (wood), and it looks like it's tacked on another house? Minor detail, to be sure, but I find it rather odd... Don't you?

Cybikbase 22:44, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Just to say this
I think that AMELIA Pond will open The Pandorica in 1996 or near there when she see's it (seen in a picture on The Pandorica Opens page a few days ago) and the Doctor will escape that would explain The Doctor in this episode after he was locked in the biggest badest prison ever? Hennessehh 00:11, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Cluttersome 'rumours'
Can someone please remove the 'Blind Fury' concept art and the associated ridiculously left-field suggestion that Gallifrey will return? There is no evidence that the art has anything to do with this episode. In fact, there is more evidence that the art is early development of the Krafayis from "Vincent and the Doctor". It may turn out that it is relevant to this episode, but there is currently no basis to even call it a 'rumour'.

Also, will someone please remove the rumour relating to the 'Timoreen, Skarkish and Ha'rik"? This rumour has been on EVERY episode page of the new series for a while now and has been consistently found false. The argument is that they've been stated to make an appearance in this series and haven't so far, so they must be appearing now. Well, here's an alternative - not all publicity put out about Doctor Who is true, and, if people hadn't realised, the Christmas Special is yet to come. It's just clutter that someone keeps rolling over everytime an episode airs.

Finally, will everyone stop discussing their latest nut-job theory on this discussion page? This is a page for discussing edits to the article. Please save your mindless chatter for a mindless forum somewhere.

202.14.81.49 10:01, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the "Blind Fury" image needs to go. And yes, this ceaseless posting of speculative rumors is getting ridiculous. We don't have any idea what will happen. The episode's only four days away. Let's clean up that section and let it be. After Saturday, only the more relevant rumors will be kept, anyway. The Omega/Rassilon theory is one of the few that holds water. After all, isn't this exactly what the Time Lords wanted? The end of the universe? Bluebox444 15:21, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Amy's House
Does anyone else notice the fact that Amy's house has three sets of stairs...and yet it's only two stories tall. Either she has an attic, and a fancy way of reaching it...or it's bigger on the inside. Is this a continuity error? 99.186.23.194 10:43, June 21, 2010 (UTC) Kieren

thats a very good point. maybe its theres a perception filter around the staris next to her room and it keps a TARDIS? Ooiue 15:48, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

That's a very good point, actually. Interestingly, the first-floor staircase leads up to a ceiling - could that be significant?

Well after watching it again I see it does lead to the ceiling/Attic. So there goes that theory. 99.186.23.194 22:10, June 25, 2010 (UTC) Kieren

If you look at the house from the outside, the roof is way to low, it simply isn't tall enough to accomodate a normal sized door. So unless its just a hatch (but if thats the case why have the stairs leading to an attic hatch to an attic with no windows) then they don't seem to go anywhere. Unless the attic is bigger on the inside. Looq 11:33, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Blind Fury?
Anyone have any ideas on the "Blind Fury" concept art image (see rumors section)? It's being used at some point in series 5 (according to the web site it came from), so it presumably has to appear in ep 13, it's got a picture of the Citadel of the Time Lords on the front, it references the "Sons of Gallifrey"...what is it? A book cover of some sort? Why no author's name, then? And what's with the arrow pointing between two stars? Bluebox444 23:51, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

It was originally going to appear in Vincent and the Doctor, but it was cut. This is the perfect example of a typical fanboy wanting wanwank, and making connections that aren't there for the finale. Delton Menace 12:05, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oh. Well, don't blame me, I didn't put it in. Shouldn't it be removed, then? Bluebox444 15:18, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

The War Lord?
Phillip Madoc seems to be credited in this episode, so is it possible that the War Lord is behind all this?

He and the War Chief (a Time Lord) were responsible for pulling humans out of time before in The War Games, they could be reason all these enemies are present in 102AD as opposed to their own time periods (Silurians, Daleks, and Cybermen certainly shouldn't be there)

It might have also been his voice we heard in the Tardis saying 'Silence will fall'

Philip also played Mehendri Solon in the Brain of Morbius, an evil scientist who was hell bent on ressurecting the Time Lord Morbius

If he was reprising a part if would have to be one of those 2, both characters being closely linked with nasty Time Lords that we are presuming are dead. If it isn't Omega then it's got to be one of these two.

Amy POND/The Duck POND (Theory)
In The Eleventh Hour, The Doctor randomly decides to notice a duck pond, but questions its status because it has no ducks. Amy then asks "Is it important?"

My guess is that it is, or it is a metaphor for Amy at least, with the duck pond simply being in existence with everyone acknowledging it but not actually thinking about it's existence or why it's a duck pond and Amy being in existence while her life "makes no sense"


 * Isn't it obvious? The Ducks were erased from history, but becasuse of Amy's Crack-Powered Brain she "sort of remembered" that it was a duck pond. =P Looq 11:31, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Amy Dead?
So is Amy really dead cause the Doctor can just go back in time and meet her again and say join me in the TARDIS then they will start they're adventures again ?

Torchwood Member 17:22, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't work like that. Chances are she'll be alive at the end of the episode anyways. - '' I. Am. Excalibur-117 ''-(talk • contribs) 18:25, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

She most definatly will come back because if you notice on the short page for the upcoming season (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Series_6_(Doctor_Who) ), it sais that Karen Gillam (spelling?) will return as Amy. So its logical to assume she survives. - Amuseme543

I think whatever the Cyberman shot her with will somehow save her. Either that or Rory will have shot himself, YES that is it the classic its not her its him thingXombygodd 16:18, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

A BIG spoiler list
io9 has a list of spoilers for the episode (http://io9.com/5570394/bluehinters-doctor-who-spoilers)
 * The "Future Doctor" thing from 'Flesh and Stone' DOES happen, and has been confirmed by people who have seen the scripts.
 * The Pandorica has a rather useful feature, in that it keeps you alive... forever. (Which is good, considering what just happened to Amy.)
 * Amy has a very special brain because she grew up next to the crack for so long.
 * Auton-Rory is responsible for releasing the Doctor, and Amy gets locked inside the Pandorica while the Doctor goes off to find the right "fuel" to bring her back to life, leaving Rory to guard the box. Stuff happens and Rory is left waiting a LONG TIME, hence the "love that lasts a thousand years." He becomes "The Lone Centurion" and is spotted throughout time guarding the box. (and as some fans have pointed out, this actually makes him chronologically older than the Doctor now!)
 * Rory doesn't stay an Auton though, and he supposedly ends up human by the end.
 * The TARDIS does explode, but it's not how you think.
 * There is a wedding at the end, and one person who has seen the episode says that the ending is cheesily reminiscent of The Wizard of Oz.


 * Finally, there are some pretty strong indications that Omega shows up at the end. (possibly played by Jason Isaacs, aka Lucius Malfoy from the Harry Potter films) He may not be a traditional big bad though, and it's possible that his appearance is just a teaser for bigger events to occur in Series 6.


 * The main evidence in favor of the evil Time Lord's return come from two independent posters on Gallifrey Base; one who claims to have seen some concept art, and another who says that he was shown a suit of black "armor" with big gauntlets labled as "Omega." As for Jason Isaacs taking over the role, he was seen entering a closed door meeting with Steven Moffat, Mark Gatiss, and John Simm a few months back (after this episode was filmed, though). This led to much speculation that he could be taking over the role of the Master next year (or possibly just appearing in a future season of 'Sherlock', which Moffat and Gatiss also produce), but considering that another informant has teased that "a Harry Potter actor has a surprise role in the finale," some of that speculation has shifted towards him possibly being Omega instead.

What do you think? Worth adding it to the article? --Antovolk 18:48, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor has UNLIMITED regenerations?! NOOOOO!!! This is good but ruins the best story ever that Rusell T. Davies had planned before he quit in which all of the Doctor's enemies form an Alliance (simmilar to this ep) and all try to kill the Doctor, and steal his regeneration energy (like the hand that stored the energy) to live forever (like the Family of Blood) and he dies leaving the TARDIS to his current companion and a new K9! Moffat ruined it all! Kerange 19:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * This must be some strange new definition of the word "ruined" that I was previously unaware of. --Histrion 10:47, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Four things I picked up from the Eleventh Hour, after reading the link on the Big Bang article, where Smith said that the villain had been in it since the Eleventh Hour:

1) The second floor of Amy's house is never mentioned. In the shots you can see it, it appears that there is something weird up there since we don't see anything in particular. This could be a production error though.

2) The face on the apple. She claims her mother and father are dead and yet she remembers enough of her mother to know that she used to carve faces into the apple. That is assuming her statement that she doesn't 'have a mum' means she's dead, and not that she never had a mother, which would be even MORE suspicious.

3) The duck pond that contains no ducks and yet Amy knows its a duck pond. Pretty weird. Same with the shed, how come she has a new shed when she seems to live alone?

4) The strange figure sprinting across the window during the Eleventh Hour.

Anyone got any comments?

-- Zopah 173.73.92.15 20:29, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I think the only one of these that could possibly relate to the episode is the figure running in front of Am'y window. I dint pick up on that one. - Amuseme543

S anyone got astill of the shadow of something sprinting across the window?

The shadow might be the doctor but.... What is more interesting to me is the fact most people overlook the fact The Doctor is possiblely a Re-loomed The Other. So There is a possiblity that he has something up his sleeve for a time like this. And the Idea that Rory becoming the Lone Centurion and that making him older than The Doctor is not likely. We do not know the Doctor's true age. Ominic 12:42, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Actually Ominic he did say he was 907 in this season at some point I remember him saying it, but he also said he was 904 years old in Voyage of the Damned so he kinda has said his true age Hennessehh 15:55, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Righ He says that but past things have stated before the reboot that he was much older. See here that discusion and the fact he has a penchant habit of lying. Ominic 11:57, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

How it will end, One God of the dead opinion
Ok I have rewatched the 11th hour about a dozen times and the same for TPO. And here is my hypothesis.

If you pause the 11th Hour when it shows a drawing on the wall you can see all the places they visit in the season, There is as follows,

Second ep. A beast below there is a drawing of a whale oh her wall at 14 min 53 sec in

there is a church oh her wall, could that be vincent or the hungry earth.

When River returns there are dolls one of them is an Angel ont the doctor and one Looks like River.

The burs patches on the grass are Dalek shaped, coincidence maybe?

The book on Pandoras box, The design on the box is the same as on the Pandorica.

There is a staircase going to a third floor and the house is obviously two stories.

The person running across screen at 14:52-54 is River song, or a woman any case because the hair comes below shoulder.

There are about half a dozen others but, I'll let you find them, Some you have to look hard for some are obvious. See if you can see the sunflower drawing?

This whole season will be some dream or something, I do not know what they will do to end it but it is all there.

The scene with River picking up the book on romans, There is a book or Mag twisted, It means sumfin but I can't quite get it.

This new producer is a sneaky smegger, I'll give him that. It is funny to watch now.

Maybe that is one of the five things Matt Smith was talking about.

Xombygodd 17:38, June 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * speculation belongs on The Howling section of the Forums.

The mouth on the face of the apple
....is the same as the time cracks. Check it out.

- Anonymous 173.73.92.15 23:43, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Nah it is just a jack o lantern type smile, But it is awful fresh so did Amy make it or did her mom who is supposed to be dead?Xombygodd 14:50, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Amy made it when she was seven. It was fresh because in the Doctor's timeline he'd only just got given it. The Doctor used it to demonstrate that he can travel in time. BenAgain 06:58, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * But her mam's gonna have died awfully recently if the apples she carved these onto are still fresh. BlueDalek 16:30, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

The silence fell in Logopolis
In the Tom Baker serial LOGOPOLIS, Silence has fallen on the planet. The master, The Dr. related?

Logopolis is the keystone if you destroy it you destroy the whole causal nexus.Xombygodd 16:35, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Alliance
These people will not be appearing, but are in the Alliance due to costs:
 * Teraleptil


 * Slitheen


 * Cheloneon


 * Nestene


 * Dravins


 * Haemogoff


 * Zygon


 * Atraxi


 * Draconian

Don't expect to see these Aliens.

A Atraxi ship can be shean when the doctor is talking.

Rory and Amy ages
So the page currently states Amy and Rory are now older than the Doctor... I dont think this is strictly true. It never happened anymore, did it? Not editting it incase I'm wrong. What do people think? WeepingDevil 20:16, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

No Since time restarted The Doctor is still older. Ominic 21:10, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well The Pandorica was Time-Locked so Amy wouldnt strictly be any older at all. And that was Auton Rory, who got rewinded 188.221.207.214 23:49, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

The universe was rebooted, but since Amy brought the Doctor back into existence and restored their full memories I would say their minds are almost two-thousand years old. Rory is shown remembering being plastic during the wedding, so this means the Auton wasn't just a duplicate, he was the real Rory trapped inside. The Pandorica is never stated to be time-locked, the Doctor says it keeps whatever is inside alive and stops it from aging. Wollstone 03:27, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

How Doctor escapes Pandorica never explained
The doctor supposedly escaped from the pandorica and then went back in time to tell Rory to get him out of the pandorica.

To do this he would have had to get out of it in the first place, this is never explained. Plot hole?!

88.108.146.107 23:38, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

history and time its self was weakend and reversing on its self the dr may have been able to take advantage of that and use it to create a paradoxal way to escape in a way he couldnt had his trap realy protected the universe

Don't forget the basic principle of Time isn't linear. Timey Wimey, it's much like Stone Angels, the doctor reads the script but only because she gave it to him, but only because he already had...read it. Not linear! 99.186.23.194 03:02, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Some possible solutions:
 * The Doctor managed to escape on his own.
 * Rory figured out how to open it.
 * Those who would have discovered it over the years figured out how to open it. Wollstone 03:32, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Right, but in Blink it was well-understood how the causality happened:


 * 1) Doctor and Martha attacked by an angel, sent to 1969.
 * 2) Doctor meets the policeman and gets his part of the story.
 * 3) Doctor remembers he has a binder in his pocket from Sally Sparrow.
 * 4) Doctor leaves messages for Sally under the house's wallpaper.
 * 5) Doctor leaves messages for Sally in DVD easter eggs.
 * 6) Sally follows the clues and makes sense of the easter eggs, her friend transcribes.
 * 7) Sally solves the mystery, sends him the Tardis, tricks the Angels.
 * 8) Sally collects all the notes on the encounter and gives it to the Doctor.
 * 9) Doctor puts the notes in his coat pocket (presumably)
 * The causality is all very clear. With the Doctor's escaping the Pandorica, it's not so clear, or doesn't seem clear to me.


 * 1) Doctor gives Rory the sonic, says go use it and put it in Amy's pocket.
 * 2) Rory goes and uses the sonic and puts it in Amy's pocket, and Amy in the Pandorica.
 * 3) Rory explains what the Doctor said and did, so the Doctor does and says it.
 * Despite that seeming to be just a 2-step version of the more complicated loop in Blink, it just rubs me wrong. In Blink, two people semi-paradoxically communicated with each other to solve the problem. In Big Bang, the Doctor was basically set loose because he wanted set loose. In Blink, there was nothing preventing the mixed causality, but in Big Bang, the Doctor appeared to Rory at a point where there was no causal way for him to ever escape. Agonaga 03:35, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it obvious??? Its a paradox of sorts. The Doctor is freed by Rory who uses the screwdriver from his future self, the two resurrect Amy and then the Doctor time-travels becoming the version of himself that gaver Rory the screwdriver and Amelia the notes. Its sort of a self-fulfilling paradox. The same thing with the Stone Dalek and him traveling 12 minutes through time. Actually the same thing happened in Harry Potter 3. Harry travels through time to save Buckbeak and saves himself, which if he'd never time-traveled in the first place never would've happened.--WarGrowlmon18 04:01, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

But how did the Doctor get the Vortex Manipulator? Wasn't it still with River Song? Sorry, but if (again, in America we don't get to see this until 10 July 2010) the Doctor didn't get the Vortex Manipulator during "The Pandorica Opens", and he just spontaneously appears outside the supposedly inescapable Pandorica, then we're either missing several minutes of story (Children In Need 2010, anyone?), or we're being asked to swallow an absurdly large cheat, much larger than Belgium (obscure nod to Children In Need 2005 ;) ). Paradox is fine, if there's some logic to it. This isn't paradox, it's "ignore the big setup of the last episode, we got stuck, cheated, and figured the audience was too stupid to notice".

However, if Moffat says this gets resolved in Series 6, and comes up with something that ties into the arc, then fine. Otherwise, I do hope those of you in the UK who can ask, do ask, because this looks like really sloppy writing, which is very much NOT Moffat. Lmb02 04:28, June 27, 2010 (UTC) And one could argue some sort of scene was shot but cut due to length, but again, it's a critical plot point that allows this episode to go forward! If the Doctor couldn't get out of the Pandorica, it was end of story. Cut some dancing at the wedding if they had to. Lmb02 05:13, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well River obviously gave it to him at some point before she took off. If she hadn't she could've used it to escape the TARDIS without the Doctor or used it to time-travel instead of the finicky TARDIS. Oh and I live in America too, but I found a website that has all the episodes including this one on it.--WarGrowlmon18 04:37, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * If she did give the Doctor the Vortex Manipulator, that brings up some good and bad points.
 * Good: It MIGHT explain how he got out of the Pandorica and was able to tell Auton Rory what to do. And be able to zip back and forth in this episode.
 * Bad: It's an important point, and hiding that from the audience, or at least not having it mentioned ("I see the Pandorica couldn't stop the Manipulator from working" or something) still leaves a taste of deux ex machina and cheat. One can argue it wasn't mentioned for the sake of story, but one can counter she didn't use it (if she had it) because events moved too quickly to think of using it. If they thought it would be too obvious to the audience for River to give the Doctor a working Vortex Manipulator, they could easily have had it disabled (a la Captain Jack's) and the Doctor did his usual thing whilst in the Pandorica and fixed it.
 * The Doctor may have had it in his pocket at the time or was unable to use it tied down like he was if it was on his wrist. His arms were restrained, he managed to send a message to River at the end, but that was with a device he was holding in his hands. Here's a bigger plot hole though: how could that be opened with just the sonic screwdriver since it was such a complex prison??? Clearly some idiot in the Alliance forgot about that or dismissed it as the screwdriver was able to open the damn thing.--WarGrowlmon18 06:02, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The episode clearly shows that the Doctor takes it out of River's satchel, which she'd left at the base of the Pandorica before going back to the TARDIS. There's no question about that. The only loose end is that we do not actually see her leave the satchel behind (Though we see that she does not have it when she enters the TARDIS).DorianX 20:17, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

PS: Could someone edit the last paragraph of the Plot to indicate Rory went as well (notes indicate he did)? Lmb02 05:13, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I think what we've got here is a predestination paradox. There is no "beginning" to this equation. Nosferatu13X 06:20, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * is this not a Ontological Paradox? - I thought a pedrestiantion is when a person tries to stop events from happening but in trying causes them too...91.108.34.210 19:19, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

It's most certainly and quite deleiberatly a predestination paradox; several were used early in the episode. This was foreshadowed by Amy's note in the lodger. I would't look for a solution as, in a sense, the events never happened anyway so there is no problem. The problem is displaced to what causes the Big Bang 2 if the events leading up to it did not happen. All you are left with is a causeless event. Jack Chilli 08:59, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

1. The Alliance imprisons the Doctor (a) in Pandora's Box (a.k.a. The Pandorica)

2. Auton-Rory nearly kills Amy.

3. The Doctor (b) appears to Rory using the Vortex Manipulator. He tells him how to open the Pandorica, gives him the sonic screwdriver, and tells him to put it into Amy's pocket.

4. Rory frees the Doctor (a) who retrieves River's Vortex Manipulator from the satchel she left on the floor in Underhenge, adjacent to the Pandorica.

5. Amelia Pond goes to the museum, and frees Amy from the Pandorica

6. The Doctor (a) teleports to the museum in 1996 using the Vortex Manipulator, where he distracts a Dalek from killing Amy and Amelia

7. Rory comes and shoots the Dalek with his Auton gun.

8. The Doctor (a) retrieves Amelia's soda from her and gives it to her.

9. The Doctor (a) goes back in time to instruct Rory on how to rescue him. He then retrieves his sonic screwdriver from Amy's pocket.

10. The Doctor (c) teleports onto the stairs, and in a whisper, explains his plan for saving the universe to Doctor (a) before apparently dying. The Doctor (a) determines that he will die in approximately 12 minutes.

11. The Doctor (a) uses a sattelite dish to locate the Tardis (the "Sun") and River. He uses the VM to rescue her.

12. The Dalek chases them off the roof.

13. The Dalek "kills" the Doctor (a), who then travels back in time to initiate his plan. He informs the Doctor (d) of his plan before pretending to die, then straps himself into the Pandorica.

14. The Doctor (a) tells Amy how to rescue him once he restores the Universe.

15. The Doctor (a) initates Big Bang 2.

Jedman67 14:05, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, whatever about the rights and wrongs of the paradox, the Doctor is clearly seen taking the Vortex Manipulator out of River's satchel, which is positioned to the side of the Pandorica. So the whereabouts/origins of the Manipulator are definitely there in the script and on screen. (As for the paradoxes and workability of the narrative, we're probably not supposed to examine such things too closely.) IantoJones

River Song in 2010
Okay here's a question: how did she get there at the end. Last we saw her she was in 1996 and the Doctor had the Vortex Manipulator (he clearly gave it back to her) and she didn't seem to be any older. So how did she get to 2010 without being aged??? Presumably she remembered everything as she's a time-traveler and like Amy with the Weeping Angels she's immune to the changes, but how did she get to the present to remind Amy???--WarGrowlmon18 04:06, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

The simple answer is that she remembered enough that when the universe re-booted, she just decided to live on earth for 14 years until Amy's wedding. Or she found another means of time-travel. A 40-year old woman from the 52nd Centuty can presumably maintain her appearence fairly easily, without appearing to be significantly aged. The real question is how the Doctor managed to get into a tuxedo when Amy pulled him back into the Universe? -Jedman67 04:33, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Amy brought the Doctor back, but I doubt she remote-controlled the Tardis. I assume the Doctor still had control of the Tardis and could choose whatever moment he wanted for his dramatic entrance. BenAgain 07:09, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * As for River, she had no reason to go to 1996 in the post-reboot Universe since there was no explosion. Once the Doctor and her memory of him had been restored it seems natural she'd want to check up on everyone, and the wedding is the obvious place to do it. It's unclear where in history she'd be at this moment, so it's hard to say how she got to 2010. If she was in prison she could escape and get the vortex manipulator in the same way she did in The Pandorica Opens. BenAgain 07:51, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

And did anyone notice that the wedding hall is the same room the cast and crew read over the script for "The Eleventh Hour" in DWC? Jedman67 04:33, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

On 2nd viewing, I'm starting to like this ep a bit more. As for River being there, though, yeah. It seems like another cop-out. Agonaga 04:34, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Another explanation is that we simply do not know enough about River to know how time travel effects her. We don't even know if she is a human. The way she and the Doctor keep meeting each at wrong points in their timeline suggests that she may be an anomaly like Amy Pond, albeit a different sort of anomaly. She may be from another universe, which could suggest that her memories were not effected since it was not her universe that was rebooted. The simple matter of fact is we just don't know who River Song is. Wollstone 08:30, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

In addition, River clearly remembers the Doctor. How come her memory isn't enough to bring the Doctor back? Or is it only Amy's magical brain that brings people back to existence from memories. >_> All seems weird to me. WeepingDevil 12:33, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well yes, the idea was that because Amy had grown up in a house with a crack in space and time in her bedroom wall, this did something to Amy, and allowed her to remember and later restore erased people and events due to the cracks, even the ones that effected her personal timeline. Therefore only she could restore the doctor. Looq 11:27, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

River's presence in 2010 is one of the oddest anomalies in an episode constructed entirely of highly intentional anomalies and paradoxes (Ontological paradoxes are Moffat's bread and butter, and I love that). I think her presence in 2010 can be explained loosely by her explanation that everyone would go back to where they were supposed to be if the Doctor suceeded. The last place she was before the explosion and collapse of the universe was staring at a rock wall through the TARDIS doors on June 26, 2010. So, perhaps she just ended up there sans-TARDIS. As for her memories, we don't really know what she remembered. The book was obviously blank, so her memory might have been too. She might have just had a hidden compulsion to carry out like Amy's (The Doctor will have plenty of time to implant instructions in younger Rivers, ala 'If you're ever trapped in 1969 you'll need this'.). It's either that or her persistent memory falls into the category of 'Things we don't know about River'. (Restored from History, originally posted by me as 174.25.133.149, 21:49, June 28, 2010 (UTC)) Wibbly-Wobbly 02:11, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

The episode was very clear that living next to the Crack had affected Amy significantly - the Universe was pouring into her brain, thus making her able to bring back people through the power of her memory. It also neatly explains what happened to her parents; i wonder why no one thought of that before? -Jedman67 13:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

The Pandorica recreated the universe based on its state when it was sealed around the Doctor. Part of that state was "River Song is in 2010". That is why River is in 2010. It's not at all clear what River remembers before Amy brings the Doctor back into existence, though; just as Amy's Time Traveler Immunity did not stop her from forgetting Rory, the Doctor is part of River's personal timeline, so she could be expected to forget him. However, River is a special case: her past is the Doctor's future, so even as the Doctor's past was being unwound, what happened to his future is markedly less clear.

Amy in Pandorica
I screenshoted this picture of Amy, I think it looks cool... Could it be added into article? --TakeruDavis 13:33, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * While a cool shot, it's huge spoilers and should be treated as such. --Erifneerg 14:44, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Is it worth noting...
That the Doctor, Amy and Rory each represent the three commonly accepted methods of "time travel"? Amy: hibernation until desired time. Doctor: "true" point to point time travel and Rory: the slow path. - '' I. Am. Excalibur-117 ''-(talk • contribs) 14:14, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I believe it could fit into Trivia section... but wait for someone else to add their opinion too... TakeruDavis 14:35, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * By slow path, do you mean what everyone else that didn't travel see? --Erifneerg 14:46, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, just "waiting it out", like real people would. We're technically time travelling as we speak. -  I. Am. Excalibur-117  -(talk • contribs) 14:52, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not following. Rory hardly "waited" it out (assuming you call guarding a box for 2000years not waiting) and did remember the alternate timeline once seeing the Doctor. That would seem like there are two people, people that know of the other time lines and those that don't - depending on how time works. I wonder if Auton Rory memories when to Human Rory.
 * I dont mean waiting as in sitting down with a cup of tea, I meant not actively time travelling, passive time travel if you will. If you still dont get it...ask someone else here, I'm not good at explaining this sort of stuff. -  I. Am. Excalibur-117 -(talk • contribs) 15:11, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Four if you count River. River = Time Machine, Doctor = Teleport, Amy = Stasis, Rory = Realtime. All 4 characters get to 1996 by alternate forms of time travel.Wibbly-Wobbly 01:01, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

The vortex manipulator is also a time machine, albeit crude by Gallifreyen standards. And Rory "waited it out" by spending 2,000 years guarding the pandorica, waiting to reach 1996, as opposed to hibernating (stasis) or active time-travel

Richard Dawkins
I've review scene just to be sure but it seems like while Amy's Aunt is talking with the Psychilist about stars, she talks about not trusting a Richard Dawkins. --Erifneerg 14:43, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The dialogue there was;


 * Psychiatrist: It's quite common actually, throughout history there have been people who talked about seeing stars in the sky.
 * Amy's Aunt: I just don't want her growing up and joining one of those 'Star Cults.' I don't trust that Richard Dawkins.


 * So, apparently in that reality Richard Dawkins belongs to something called a 'Star Cult' or at least speaks on their behalf. Vegnas 11:36, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Spelling error
Someone could add (I can't at the moment): in the pre-credits scenes, Young Amy reads the National Museum brochure. In the section on the Nile Penguins (upper right corner of the screen), the word "tragedy" is misspelled "tradegy." --Histrion 19:26, June 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Put it in myself. Cuz I can, now. --Histrion 22:46, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Dancing
The Doctor has actually danced three times since the series revival - Doctor Dances, Big Bang AND Human Nature where he danced with Joan at the town dance.

Just a point of clarification.
 * That was not technically the Doctor. John Smith is generally considered to be a separate individual. Wollstone 02:11, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Similarly, I thought this was the THIRD time the Doctor interacted with a companion's wedding: Sara Jane Adventures anyone? "The Wedding of SJ" 173.22.27.216 23:14, June 29, 2010 (UTC)Blankties

The Doctor's rescue of River
I found the dialouge there funny. Note how she calls him "my love." Either she's Mrs. The Doctor (which explains her killing that Dalek: she wanted revenge for the murder of the man she loved) or she's just really in love with him. I love how he pops in and says "hi honey, I'm home." Her reaction, "and what sort of time do you call this......." that's exactly what a wife would say to her husband who's home late.--WarGrowlmon18 04:18, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

It is more likely The Doctor's Way of poking fun at her for calling him "her sweet" and the like. Ominic 10:32, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

She cant be his wife; its too obvious. She cant be a future regeneration, because thats just weird. She probably will be a love interest, as implied by Silence in the Library, unlikely to be a Time Lord, but perhaps an "advanced" human or the like. And she most assuredly "kills" him in the next meeting, and falls in love with him. -Jedman67 04:49, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, River could be his wife which could explain the way she acts towards him, they do clearly have a stong bond (even from the Doctor's point of view), however it could be just that, a stong bond, a kinship. It could just be harmless flirtation. "My Love", "Sweetie" and "Hi Honey, I'm Home" are all common phrases, the latter so much so it's a cliche. Because of that I think its impossible to read anything from their behaviour towards each other, other than the fact that they have a bond, which could take any one of a million forms. Looq 11:12, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Go back to Silence in the Library and River talking to Donna about "her" Doctor. It's not idle flirtation. Saying something like (this is from memory, sorry) "When he looks through me, it shouldn't bother me but it tears me up inside". She's not flirting. And that's why she lets the Dalek beg before she kills it. The Dalek shot her sweetie. Lmb02 16:58, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Re-written Doctor Who ?
OK, so let me get this straight...

First of all, the Doctor coming back thanks to a girl's memory, it reminds me of the Series 3 finale, where the Doc comes back thanks to a mobile-phone network... Next year, he will come back thanks to Twitter.

Second, the question that hae bothered me, and that no one here seems to have realized.

The Doctor rebooted the Universe, so all that happened during this season never happened (no new-new-Daleks, no crash of the Byzantium, no time-travelling River Song...) but so did every other event of the previous Doctors ! This rebooted Universe is a version where the Doctor was never born... Does it means that there have been no Susan, no Ian and Barbara, no Steven, no Nyssa and Tegan... ?

I like Moffat a lot, but did he just do a complete reboot of the show ? 90.24.17.21 08:09, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

I think the Whoniverse was completely restored, and I mean that when the Doctor was 'remembered', his entire past was restored. If I'm wrong, then Steven Moffat will be a very unpopular man indeed, fans would be demanding his blood, so I don't think he would have rebooted it to that extent. The evil dude. 10:43, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, Moffat wouldn't have rebooted the entire universe. When the Doctor was "remembered" his past was restored too, as the evil dude said. The only thing that may be different was that the cracks never happened in the rebooted universe, which could change the events of this series. The Angles were destroyed some other way, Rory was never erased (so presumably went on the other adventures), the Vampires never went to Venice and Amy's family was never erased. Although they could remember everything exactly the same and its a paradox. Looq 11:19, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Presumably, Amy now remembers the Dalek invasion of Earth, and Earth in general is aware of the Cyberking in Victorian London? Doctor said they had been forgotten due to cracks, did he not.WeepingDevil 12:16, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Thats a point, if the Doctor never exsisted shouldnt Amy's Doctorless World be like Donna's World from Turn Left? Looq 13:32, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think the errased events remained errased - Amy was only able to restore the stuff she remembered, i.e: her parents, the Doctor, and the version of the whoniverse she lived in. The Doctor still has his memories of the unwritten events from the R.T era, but they never actualy happened. This is just a theory of mine. MidnightCat 01:01, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

It is likely since the world was repaired because of the Doctor's use of the Pandorica... Which save a snap shot of the world as it was when it sealed..... It logically would implicate that the evens that occured because of the Cracks in space or related to them would still have occured although no one could truly remeber them. In point, The book of River Song's spoilers re writes it self once the Doctor returns. Meaning almost all the events still occured since the Doctor does. Ominic 20:41, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

movement
if you look carefully at 25.27, can you see movement in the background behind the Doctor?


 * Is that the moment just as they come into the hallway just before the Doctor gets shot by the Dalek? If so, then yeah I noticed that too. Looq 13:24, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

The Eye of the Storm
Okay, so Earth and humanity remained in exsistance because they were at the eye. Also AutonRory, Amy and the Doctor remained unaffected because of their status as "anomolies". So I ask you this. Why did the Surilians dissapear? Looq 13:28, July 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, since the Tardis explodes in the early 21st century it is probable that 21st century earth is the eye of the storm but spacially and temporally. 102AD is A LOT closer to that than when the Silurians were dominant on Earth, and more importantly went to sleep, so it is likely the Silurians were erased from history first.(further proof being that the things in the museum begin disappearing but the 4 of them IN the museum aren't.Doorofnight 23:59, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Production error?
when amy checks amelia's height and the camera is pulling back, you can see movement on the right edge of the picture

am i the only one who noticed this?

Rory's Family?
Does anyone know if any of the extras were credited as with the last name Williams? Was there anyone identified as Rory's family - did we see his parents or anything? Just curious.216.226.176.142 20:41, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * No one by that name in the credits. But then the credits don't list all the actors. 68.146.81.123 16:24, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

Possible production error
Amy's house must be huge. The wedding is held in a rather large hall. The Doctor arrives and later states he has to move the TARDIS so there's room for the dance. The dance takes place. The Doctor later leaves the dance and exits to the TARDIS -- which is shown as located outside Amy's house! That suggests all the wedding, reception, etc. takes place in the house. Maybe it's a TARDIS in disguise? 68.146.81.123 16:24, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

Wait a minute... you're right! I just asumed it was Leadworth Church Hall or something but... now I try to peice it all together... maybe Amy just happens to have a big living room, and they simply moved all the furniture out to make way for the wedding reception. Yeah, in my mind I'll exuse it as that. Perhaps it was the cellar... MidnightCat 18:42, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Paradox
Would it be a good idea to have all the paradoxes that appear in this episode under its own section - after all theres quite a lot of them91.108.34.210 19:05, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

Removing speculation
I removed the continuity section explaining how this relates to Flesh and Stone partly because I think it's wrong but also because I think it's inappropriate.

There is no evidence that the cracks never happened. Yes we see them close, but we don’t see them not open in the first place.

For River Song, Flesh and Stone takes place after The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. All the events of those episodes have already happened for her including the erasure/recreation of the Doctor, and the close of the cracks. Therefore there are still cracks in the universe: they open, erase people, then close. Consequently the angels are still destroyed by the crack and there is no need to invoke a new version of these events.

However, I imagine some people disagree. There are a variety of interpretations as to how the episodes interact and I don’t think we should be peddling one particular interpretation as the correct one. Better to remove the reference entirely and let people decide what they want.LordJuss 12:25, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

This is the way I see it too - with her comment at the end of Flesh and Stone "you'll see me again when the Pandorica Opens" suggest it happens anyway - you got to remember that happened in the doctors past before he closed the cracks so in that perspective it will still happen for river even though its in her future 91.108.34.210 15:33, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Story Notes: It is also the first story since DW: Last of the Time Lords not to feature Billie Piper.
Two stories featuring Billie Piper? Is this important? Why is it a story note?! BlueDalek 09:17, July 10, 2010 (UTC)