Talk:The Master (First Frontier)

Behind the scenes
When I encountered it, article said:
 * According to David A. McIntee; the author of First Frontier, this incarnation of the Master's appearance is based upon that of the actor Basil Rathbone.

and then it had a pic of Basil Rathbone. Well the pic's gone, cause we only host pictures from the DWU around here. But this source doesn't have the word McIntee anywhere on the page. Thus, the source doesn't validate the sentence at all. Oh, and the source is invalid accourding to T:SOURCES. So I've pulled it here in the hopes that someone might be able to properly source it an put it back into the article. 04:12: Sat 22 Oct 2011

Page and Sidebar renaming
I think it'd be nice to rename this Master's page something like "The Tzun Master", in reference to the fact this incarnation came about due to Tzun Nanites, and the fact he's commonly referred to as this. Though I'm not fussed, so pitch names here.

My only real problem with the current naming is how he's referred to on the sidebar - where he's called "old", which is in reference to Tipple's credit as "The Old Master" in the TV Movie. But feels like a conflation to me - Tipple's incarnation wasn't intended to be Tzun, and there's multiple accounts as to which Master was executed in the trial, so conflating the two seems unjustified tbh. I'm not saying make a separate Tipple page (I don't think that's warranted until Big Finish or something establish him as an incarnation in his own right), just suggesting we change the name of the link in the sidebar to be consistent with how we're actually naming him, which should probably also go for other the other incarnations too (atleast after their rename discussions have concluded).

For similar reasons, I should also propose changing the image for this page. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎  09:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Despite fandom parlance, I strongly oppose "the Tzun Master". The Tzun are a species of "grey-"type alien humanoids; to me and, I think, anyone who's actually read First Frontier as opposed to just knowing the "the Master was resurrected by something called Tzun Nanites(TM)" factoid, "the Tzun Master" just conjures up the idea of an incarnation of the Master who looks like a Tzun/is biologically Tzun, perhaps because he possessed a Tzun. (Much as one of the proposed names for for Ainley is "the Trakenite Master".)


 * If you don't feel this in your bones, here's a useful thought experiment — suppose that the regeneration had come about thanks to nanites provided by the Silurians, or by the Dalek Empire. Would "Silurian Master" satisfy as a name for the non-scaly bearded man? What about Dalek Master? Come now. This is misleading and everything that's wrong with the notion of using "speculative" nicknames. The fandom practice here cannot be trusted.


 * At a push we could use "Tzun", with quotation marks in instead of "Old", but I am staunchly against the prospect of making it the actual page name. If we can't agree on "Old Master" or another nickname, let's just keep it as the dabbed form. It's fine. He's not actually been in any multi-Master stories, so it's less of a concern than it otherwise would be.


 * Either way I don't think changing the infobox images would be warranted; The Novel of the Film does make the identification between the two, and that's the only visual we have of the First Frontier Master. It's no different from Ferain using an image of the Time Lord messenger even though he has other purported identities. If we had an image that was specifically of the FF Master it would take precedence, but we don't. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that the Tzun Master isn't an accurate name. Personally, I don't have a problem with "Old Master"; it's how Tipple was credited and it's not as though we don't already have pages called Old Swarm, New Swarm and Previous Doctor. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  11:33, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I believe User:TheSpaghetOutcast's scruple is not about the credit as such, but about the fact that technically, "the Old Master" is, by equal valid accounts, a name for the Tremas Master as much as a name for the First Frontier Master, as Tipple may be playing either. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:35, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm with you. Completely forgot about The Eight Doctors. On a side note, shouldn't the Old Master have his own page just like Time Lord messenger (Genesis of the Daleks) does? Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  11:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This was discussed in the Forum thread — in theory we could, but as no account (not even the TVM itself, really) asserts him as definitively his own thing as distinct from being the FF Master (let alone Tremas), there's just not much we could put on such a page. It would just serve as a hub to document the conflicting accounts. And the thing is that The Master's trial (Doctor Who) already does that very well. So the thread's conclusion was that, unless the situation changes, there wouldn't be any real need. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:40, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * This matter wasn't so much "discussed in the Forum thread" as "deferred to the incarnation talk page", which is where we are now!


 * Jack "BtR" Saxon cited the precedent of Previous Doctor (Exile), and I'd just like to note that this example uses both "Previous" and the story name dab term, and I think the same should apply to "Old Master", should we choose it. Unlike Swarm, who appeared in only a single story, there have been enough other stories involving a "young Master" and an "old Master" (Utopia, for one) that "Old Master" on its own is by no means unambiguous. – n8 (☎) 15:25, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * My personal opinion is that "Tzun" Master is the most appropriate name. Simply put, it's the name that EVERYONE knows the incarnation by. To be quite frank, I believe that the assertion that people would think that it's a "grey alien" is absurd. Anyone that knows about the Tzun will already know the exact circumstances of how this incarnation of the Master came to be. For those that are confused, it will be clear by the time they've read the lead of the article. Confusion is a valid reason not to name a page something, but this isn't real confusion --this is making up a situation where confusion COULD take place. The criticism of Old Master, in my opinion, is strong. The "Old Master" could be two distinct incarnations --which on its own would make me uncomfortable with the name. As I have stated previously, there is no need for Tzun Master, Tremas Master, AND Old Master --because the question of "Which incarnation was executed by the Daleks?" is already explored on The Master's trial (Doctor Who) as well as Decayed Master. That being said, it doesn't change the fact that the name is mutually descriptive of two distinct incarnations. What's more, the name only works in a relative sense --he is only "old" relative to Eric Roberts. He is "new" relative to Anthony Ainley! Imagine, if you will, a universe where the Rathbone!Master had appeared in Masterful. Referencing him as the "Old" Master on Masterful (audio story) would be INSANELY confusing. He wouldn't be old relative to half the Masters there, nor would he be PHYSICALLY older. Readers would sooner assume you're talking about the War Master. The name also DOES NOT APPLY to most of this incarnation's appearances --it only applies to the brief moments before his death (according to one account). Tzun Master is far more accurate AND far more widely used. Google "Old Master" Doctor Who and then google "Tzun Master" Doctor Who and see what gets more hits. I think, ultimately, pushing "Old Master" over "Tzun Master" is (1) misleading, since there are two incarnations that have equally valid claims to the title, (2) does not describe the incarnation under the vast majority of his appearances, and (3) is not the name that any of the "not-we" use. I am a huge supporter of moving this page to Tzun Master (or "Tzun" Master should that be the way we approach such names). NoNotTheMemes ☎  20:55, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that Old Master is probably unworkable as a page name for all these reasons (though in my hear that is his name). My current opinion is that this page should just stay dabbed, honestly.


 * To be clear, I agree that people aren't likely actually to think that we're dealing with a Master who's a Tzun. My argument is moreso that because that's what it'd mean if read in in-universe terms, it's just not in-universe enough to pass muster. It's too close to something like, oh, say, Morbius Doctors or Shalka Doctor. These names all make sense to readers from a real-world point of view, but even though they seemingly reference in-universe elements, they would be gibberish to any in-universe observers, in a way that even names that are rarely used in-universe in practice, like Fugitive Doctor or Decayed Master, would not be. (Additionally, people unfamiliar with First Frontier might not get the impression that this Master is a little grey alien, but the name might breed the opposite issue, namely a lack of awareness of what the Tzun actually are.) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:13, 16 January 2023 (UTC)


 * But "Tzun" Master differs from the examples of Morbius Doctors or Shalka Doctor (although, despite my own personal disdain for the name, I would insist that such a name be used should it be given a non-story DAB) because it DOES make sense from an in-universe observer. It's the Master whose body was repaired by the Tzun Confederacy. Is it perfect? Nah. No name short of Rathbone Master would be --but using that name would break our rules on in-universe naming AND would be the less commonly used name (and in fact, it wouldn't be perfect since he was never actually played by Basil Rathbone, but I digress). I also think the concern that it might breed the "opposite issue" to be unfounded. A reader will click Tzun Master, see Tzun in the lead, click, and find out. The Wiki has historically bowed to fandom naming conventions. Romana's naming convention came not from story credits or official sources, but from the "common naming that everyone in the fandom had for her". This ruling, too, should apply to the Tzun Master. It is only appropriate that we adopt the name that the not we overwhelmingly use to talk about him. NoNotTheMemes ☎  21:39, 16 January 2023 (UTC)