Forum:Clarifying in-universe deadnaming policy in response to Rose Noble

So I am creating this forum in response to the latest episode of Doctor Who, TV: The Star Beast. In short, I think that we need to have a greater discussion about our in-universe deadnaming policy.

As far as I know, our wiki policy is that out-of-universe, we do not allow deadnames to be used on the pages of actors, crew members, etc. BUT we do allow redirects in cases where the person transitioned after they were credited for working on a DWU story, so people looking up names in the back of a book can find what they're looking for.

But our policy on in-universe pages is that, in our mission to archive and collect all in-universe information, we allow deadnames to be listed in the opening paragraph of a character's page, alongside redirects. This has been done specifically because we've seen many characters transition mid-narrative, such as Dorothy (The Wonderful Doctor of Oz).

However, I think we need to reconsider at least some cases, specifically the new situation of Rose Noble. As Rose is both canonically transgender and has her deadname stated in-narrative, there is naturally going to be a culture of some more... well, evil fans refusing to call her by anything but her dead name. Writing an article on a significant trans character and then having the second stated detail being her dead name could have very bad optics in my opinion.

So this is my thought: I think in cases like these, there is no need for the opening paragraphs to mention Rose's deadname. If people insist on having that information archived somewhere, you can place it in the start to the biography section. But others might think that we should simply not have deadnames on her article - it is worth debating. I also think there should be a redirect, because sadly people will see the phrase "J***n Noble" out there in the wild and will need to be able to search for the name out of context. However, use of this redirect within any articles should be absolutely banned, as this is a search-feature only redirect.

(Obviously, as Yasmin Finney was not credited for any DWU roles before transitioning, I think linking to or using *her* deadname should be considered vandalism. She does not need a redirect.)

I do understand how some would like to approach this in a case-by-case basis, but I certainly think that we need an official policy on this, and that said policy should discourage opening an article on a deadname or implying that a deadname defines a character more than anything else. OS25🤙☎️ 23:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion
I think that, when the transition is in the backstory and not shown mid-story like with Rose Noble, there is no need for the name to be mentioned in the lead. However, I feel that it should be mentioned once at the start of the biography. However, this is at odds with w:c:community:Gender_Identity_Guidelines. As Rose transitions before the episode, we shouldn't use her deadname at all under that policy. However, I feel that this is a little unhelpful: RTD considers it important to accurately portray the abuse that transgender people may exprience and Rose's deadname also has some interesting meanings (see The Star Beast (TODWP episode)). Not mentioning the deadname anywhere seems like it runs counter to this. I will clarify with User:Spongebob456. I feel that a redirect should definetly be created for searchability. Bongo50  ☎  23:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it's absurd to omit the name completely. At the end of the day, she's a fictional character and her deadname should be mentioned given that Russell T. Davies has chosen to include it in the episode, but I don't think it needs to be mentioned in her intro. Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon ☎  00:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Should be documented. Shouldn't be in the intro. And there should probably be more robust changes to the rules than just this, imo. Epsilon was thinking of a few, iirc. Najawin ☎  01:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Another thing worth considering is whether Rose should be included in the disambiguation page for her deadname. I'm leaning towards yes in some form for the same reason we'd have a redirect. Bongo50   ☎  12:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think the deadname should be omitted entirely. It is irrelevant, and given its context, it will make every trans user's heart sink when they get to the name, wherever it is. It is almost certainly the majority opinion within the trans community itself that deadnames are unacceptable on any wiki, please take that into consideration. User:Hasrock36 13:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "it will make every trans user's heart sink when they get to the name, wherever it is"


 * elaborate on this 103.247.152.236talk to me 13:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

exactly what Hasrock says. My heart certainly did sink with those parts (also trans). And with ref to “respecting RTD’s intent” the point is moot he is not trans


 * Yasmin Finney is trans though, and there are many other people on the production team who are trans. They would have agreed with this depiction. The whole point is to emphasise the abuse trans people face, plus it also forms a significant part of their character as an extension of the DoctorDonna. To ignore it would be a massive disservice in my opinion. 85.255.235.211talk to me 14:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Elaborating for103.247.152.236 as a trans woman myself seeing wikis and the like include deadnames feels like another stab in the heart, and a reminder that the world doesn't listen to us, or think that we belong. Its not just raw data, you have got to consider the impact on the affected community who will read this page.User:Hasrock36 15:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It’s in the episode itself, so you cannot expect people to just forget it exists. Every time you watch the episode you will be exposed to it. And I agree that it’s an important inclusion to show that this abuse exists. And Juno Dawson (herself a trans person) agrees with why RTD included it. Danniesen ☎  15:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Reasons for and against inclusion in the episode itself are different to the reasons for and against including it on her wiki page User:Hasrock36 15:55, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Rose's birthname is a fact of her character and should be included in the article as a point of information, just like how someone's original surname would be included in articles where their name was changed through marriage. This should be a dry, apolitical and professionally written article. To leave it out entirely is silly. It doesn't need to be dwelled on, but a tactfully written point towards it is something that absolutely should be included. While Rose is a woman, she was named "Jason" by her parents at birth. That's a fact. This is a database of facts. It belongs. CaptainKaibyo ☎  16:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It should definitely not be included in the lede or infobox, but I do think mention it in the biography at the appropriate point is useful. We are here to reflect sources' content, not editorialise. But the concern about genuine psychological distress to some readers, albeit secondhand/in sympathy to an imaginary character, is a genuine one. This sort of links back to our discussions on trigger warnings and so on.


 * Again taking a page out of other online platforms' books (as I recently suggested we do with regards to editing windows at Forum:What does it mean for a story to be released in its entirety?), I wonder if we might not find a technical way to implement spoilered text, so that by default, a reader would see only "Rose was originally born under the deadname ■■■■■", but they'd be able to click it and see the name if they so desire. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 17:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

How are new queer viewers of the show going to react when they look up her wiki page and see the most basic courtesy to trans people isn't followed here? Because in queer circles other sci fi wikis have decided to include deadnames and some people just refuse to even use that wiki, there are even private forks because its considered such a red flag. Keep the deadname in and lose the trust of many queer users. User:Hasrock36 17:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Something I'll note is the fact that Wikipedia even mentions deadnames for certain individuals, namely those who were known by it for years before transitioning like Caitlyn Jenner or Elliot Page. Rose Noble is obviously a fictional character so I think rules should be a bit relaxed here


 * Frankly though if we start omitting stuff due to "distress" then frankly this wiki has failed at its purpose. This is a database of info. There are many other articles on this wiki that could just as easily be argued to cause distress. There's also T:NOT SFW which can also be applied to this. 185.69.144.51talk to me 17:16, 26 November 2023 (UTC)