Theory talk:Timeline - Thirteenth Doctor

Plausible gap for solo adventures?
The beginning of Spyfall shows Graham, Ryan, and Yaz going about their ordinary lives on Earth before meeting up with the Doctor again, implying the Doctor could have, indeed, left them for a little bit. Could this give us the excuse to finally place all those currently-unplaced solo adventures within the timeline? WaltK ☎  22:02, January 2, 2020 (UTC)

13 doesn’t seem the type to have solo adventures while still having companions like 12. For all we know, she spends all her time at the garage doing TARDIS work while their off.BananaClownMan ☎  22:13, January 2, 2020 (UTC)

Well the Doctor does mention that they said they’d meet in an hour, and as the Doctor had been running repairs on the TARDIS, maybe not? Honestly I think we should leave it be until either the end of her era or if a clearer gap presents itself. Right now the solo adventures are collected together, they’re just waiting for a placement and I don’t see an issue with leaving them where they are while they don’t have an 100% obvious placement. Plus there’s loads more timeline issues that need to be dealt with now that Spyfall has established has had the Doctor tell the companions about her origins for the first time. SarahJaneFan ☎  16:38, January 6, 2020 (UTC)


 * How so, dear friend?BananaClownMan ☎  19:34, January 6, 2020 (UTC)


 * Have there been instances in non-televised media before this that


 * In deed. Are you saying there are instances in previous offshoots that contradict this element? At the very least, I don’t recall having seen any in the comics, for instance. WaltK ☎  18:47, January 7, 2020 (UTC)

There’s a few books and short stories where the companions are very much aware that the Doctor is a Time Lord from Gallifrey who’s had several other regenerations who were men. The Secret in Vault 13 is probably the worst offender because Yaz is very much clued up on the Doctor's origins and there’s weird inconsistencies about how long they’ve been travelling together. At one point they say it’s been weeks since they first left earth, the next they say they’ve been with the Doctor for months.

Chasing the Dawn has the Doctor recounting an adventure that the Eleventh Doctor has with Amelia Earhart to Yaz, although I’ll have to double check if the Doctor ever describes her earlier incarnation or uses other pronouns but I’d assume yes.

The Good Doctor has the Doctor mentioning Time Lords several times in front of her companions, but Ryan is still reluctant to call Graham grandad. I think there’s also a reference to the Time Lords in the short story with Elvis, which is set immediately after Arachnids in the UK.

The Titan Comics as far I know fit well into continuity, the closest they get is a reference to Missy and an encounter with the Corsair but they skirt around any mention of Time Lords/Gallifrey/The Doctor’s people.

It’s annoying because in theory we’d want the vast majority of stories to go in between Series 11 and 12 as we’ve got a year to play with there. SarahJaneFan ☎  01:42, January 9, 2020 (UTC)


 * Do Team TARDIS ever actually show any awareness of what these things are in these stories (aside from Vault 13)? Part 1 of Spyfall did establish that Team TARDIS were at least aware that the Doctor made references to her having been a man before but, in Graham's case, he never thought anything of it because he believed she was joking. Unless Team TARDIS actually engaged with these references when they were made, they could just as easily be explained as "they dismissed it as more throwaway technobabble the Doctor often spouts" or "I really gotta ask the Doctor what these things actually mean someday". Another possibility is that Team TARDIS did already know a bit of the stuff the Doctor "revealed" at the end of Spyfall, and that they were actually angling for more information when they grilled her, and the Doctor just purposely reiterated the basics of her backstory to them to avoid going into any more detail.


 * Also, Vault 13 is apparently notorious for being super inconsistent on a lot of accounts, including the characterisations of Team TARDIS; a direct result of the writer being given no other information besides official character summaries. Make of that what you will. WaltK ☎  18:52, January 9, 2020 (UTC)

In Fugitive of the Judoon, it's briefly established that the Doctor has recently been leaving Team TARDIS behind to "explore" for an hour or so while she goes off to supposedly look for the Master.

I know I'm reaching a bit here, but with the introduction of at least one solo-Doctor story that very distinctively uses the series 11 TARDIS interior, we should really think about finding a place for these stories soon... WaltK ☎  20:50, February 1, 2020 (UTC)

Well I think Can You Hear Me? have pretty just confirmed that we can’t really place any solo stories comfortably yet. The Doctor isn’t used to being on her own here so I would try not to put any solo stories before that. I wouldn’t say that no solo stories can be placed before Can You Hear Me? at all, but I would suggest that we wait it out until an obvious solo gap presents itself. SarahJaneFan ☎  23:16, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

"The Greatest Movie Never Made"
My edit is constantly being reverted at every turn for some reason, so instead of continuing to counter-edit, I’m just going to use this space to debate.

I believe The Greatest Movie Never Made comes directly after Kerblam!. It’s acknowledged already that Ryan makes a reference to the latter episode by saying he doesn't want to visit another big warehouse. Him saying that makes me believe that the events of Kerblam! having literally just happened; they've just now come from a warehouse, so Ryan says he doesn't want to visit another one. It seems unlikely to me that Ryan would just suddenly come out with it with no prompting if its events happened weeks ago or whatever. WaltK ☎  21:54, February 8, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this assertion. It’s not impossible that this story comes after Resolution as publication order might suggest, however from the scarce narrative evidence we have, I would argue that directly after Kerblam! with the events of that story fresh on Ryan's Mind makes the most narrative sense. For me, the fact that Ryan brings up the warehouse without any promoting cements an Immediately Post-Kerblam! placement for me. At least based on the little information we have. SarahJaneFan ☎  23:12, February 9, 2020 (UTC)

"Punjab" question
I was wondering, in relation to the Secret in Vault 13 placement controversy, would it at all be possible to interpret the scene with Umbreen's birthday party at the beginning of Demons of the Punjab as happening in the recent past (as in, before Yaz met the Doctor), and not necessarily as "Yaz briefly returned from her travels to attend the party? If it were possible to go with the former interpretation, the problem that currently exists with Secret in Vault 13's placement would be eliminated. WaltK ☎  00:53, March 4, 2020 (UTC)

Thirteenth Doctor in "The Best of Days"
BananaClownMan seems to think the Thirteenth Doctor showed up in the new webcast as the woman who Bill spotted from her flat and instantly took a fancy to, with the only indication being the eyes. I personally think this is a pretty big assumption and that there isn't nearly enough evidence to back it up, but I'd like to hear what the rest of you think. WaltK ☎  16:40, June 8, 2020 (UTC)


 * Definitely too speculative in my opinion. It wasn't like Bill said she was wearing a "grey coat and rainbow striped t-shirt". Bill merely noted she had beautiful eyes, and its a safe guess there are hundreds of people with eyes like that.
 * It's not as if that character was even intended to be the Thirteenth Doctor, like how Professor Stream was overtly intended to be The Master.
 * Epsilon the Eternal ☎  10:07, June 15, 2020 (UTC)


 * Also, as the Thirteenth Doctor appearing in The Best of Days is purely speculation, without any confirmation from Steven Moffat, so why is The Best of Days even on this timeline? If it's fine, I'll remove it.
 * Epsilon the Eternal ☎  19:36, June 24, 2020 (UTC)


 * Way ahead of you. WaltK ☎  01:04, June 26, 2020 (UTC)

Re:Time Lapse/New Beginning placement
A New Beginning may have an emphasis on beginnings, but it's already placed pretty late into S11's run. What's wrong with just shifting it down by a few places so that it appears on the other side of S11?

The date in Time Lapse isn't an error, but just one of many examples of these offshoot stories from different companies and writers not being made to accommodate each other. Unfortunately, it's hard to reconcile the story's date and placement with each other. If Team TARDIS are somehow still tied to their "present" time and are affected by whatever anomalies are happening in said time period, why are these people from 2018 suddenly being affected by something that is in their future? WaltK ☎  20:41, July 22, 2020 (UTC)

Postcript
I’m just wondering now if PROSE: Postscript should really be on the timeline. The Doctor herself doesn’t actually make an appearance in the story at all, she’s just represented by a postcard sent to the city of the saved. And the postcard itself wasn’t even sent by her, but by her “actualised potential” whatever that is. So I’m just not sure if it’s even worthy of being included to be honest. SarahJaneFan ☎  21:26, September 21, 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I'd say it'd warrant being included, and I've a way to include it. Epsilon  📯 📂 00:13, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Where to put adventures with Yaz, Graham and Ryan
So, Graham and Ryan left (presumably forever) in Revolution of the Daleks, and there's still a few unplaced adventures with them in. I'm not sure if Titan Comics are finished with the characters yet, but for the stories so far that lead directly into each other, between Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror and Fugitive of the Judoon seems a good place for them, as the events of NTNT are revisited, and the companians know abot the Doctor's past. For the Series 11 design used for the TARDIS, maybe it was nostalgic. Although The White Dragon isn't fully published yet, the Doctor tells Ryan that she's warned him before about telling people their future, implying a setting after Rosa, the TARDIS team don't seem to have been to Hong Kong before, which might explain why they don't stray from their errand in Praxeus, and Yaz tries to buy some jewllery for her family, which might indicate that she hasn't seen them in a while. I'd like to get a second opinion though. CharlieCon ☎  19:04, 25 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Alternating Current ended on a cliffhanger, so they’re definitely not done with Ryan and Graham just yet. As for the placing, a setting after Night of Terror is undeniable, but the jury’s still out on which side of Fugitive/Praxeus it happens on. The TARDIS interior design is most likely just an error. White Dragon can also take place just about anywhere between Spyfall and CYHM?, as long as it's after Piggybackers. Yaz wanting to buy jewellery for her sister doesn't mean anything; one could easily travel somewhere for a day or two and decide they want to bring something back for their family at home. WaltK ☎  20:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * You know, I honestly forgot that the team also went to Hong Kong in Praxeus. That being said, White Dragon doesn't mention that they've been there before, neither is the reverse true for Praxeus (obviously because the TV show has no business in referencing an offshoot story that hadn't even come out by then, let alone at all). I'll leave you guys to figure that one out. WaltK ☎  20:52, 25 February 2021 (UTC)


 * A Little Help from my Friends/Alternating Current certainly could fit between Nikola Tesla and Fugitive, and indeed that’s where I added that storyline in the biography on Thirteenth Doctor, but whatever story follows on from the cliffhanger may change things. I’d be happy for them to be slotted in that gap until said story actually comes along, but others may disagree on that. I can’t think of anything in The White Dragon that says whether the Fam have been to Hong Kong before or not, so it could work anywhere in Series 12 really. Best to wait till it’s finished, case the final part sheds more light on this (which is due out next week I think, so not long to wait). SherlockTheII ☎  00:26, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Btw, I recently learned from a writer of Doctor Who on Twitter, that the audios/comics/novels of Doctor Who are very restricted as to what they can refer to. Most of these writers wish to reference other things in the franchise to help fans place the story, but are highly restricted due to license. Usually the only thing that they are able to mention is the television episodes, and even then, their bosses ask them not to for reasons that baffle me. The reason I bring this up is this: the only true way to know authorial intent is to ask the author. You're not going to get any in-universe help from the characters, and that's normally down to very tight licensing issues forcing the editors' hands. The writers themselves will probably have very clear authorial intent, and actually the "true" placement was probably mentioned in the briefing. The  Farty  Doctor   Talk  08:42, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Does Ryan tend to call Graham by name a lot post-It Takes You Away? Because that's about one of the only indicator I can think of in The Warmonger (besides later DWM comics refering to it.) I haven't read a lot of 13th Doctor comics and novels so I don't know if its too common an occurence to be meaningful.
 * 173.176.173.131talk to me 12:54, 23 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Ryan only calls Graham “grandad” like 2 or 3 times onscreen after It Takes You Away. It’s far more mixed in the EU because of course the writers assumed that he’d call Ryan grandad all the time. IMO we shouldn’t use what Ryan calls Graham as evidence except to place stories where he calls Graham grandad after It Takes You Away. And of course stories where he directly refuses to call him grandad before that. SarahJaneFan ☎  13:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Potential for adventures between Vanquishers and EotD
Can we be certain that a story like It's Behind You can pheasably take place between Vanquishers and Eve of the Daleks? It's just the beginning of the latter implies a setting very shortly after the former... WaltK ☎  01:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Well we know from Dan's comment about the Doctor saving the universe that at least a week passes between The Vanquishers and Eve. It's Behind You is a very very short story (its entire plot is literally just they go to a panto and wacky things happen) so it can slot in there with no bother in my opinion. SherlockTheII ☎  12:15, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I personally wouldn't want to put anything pre-Eve. Obviously there's Dan's line about The Vanquishers being last week and we know some time passed for Dan between the Flux ending and the Doctor and Yaz coming back to pick him up. That paired with the fact they're fixing the TARDIS up and Yaz mentions that they're supposed to have a moment on the beach where the Doctor explains everything. It doesn't feel as though anything should go between the two stories. But I also feel like we're in a difficult position as the ending of Eve looks as though it's going to lead into the next episode and so we could potentially end up having no gaps at all except the week between The Vanquishers and Eve of the Daleks.

Having It's Behind You before Eve isn't a huge issue because it's a very small scale story but I think if we get a better gap it would be more appropriate to place it there. SarahJaneFan ☎  13:21, 6 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Prefixing this by saying that I haven't seen series 12 and Flux yet, but that seems to be the logical thing to do.
 * It would be odd for the TARDIS to be damaged in The Vanquishers, usable enough to go to a panto in It's Behind You, and then damaged in Eve of the Daleks. The logical order, to me, is TV, EotD, then IBY, else we might start fudging it.
 * That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if no gaps are presented before the Thirteenth Doctor's regeneration, so this gap may have to become where we place these stories. Hey, it's not like short gaps have been tenuously extended before to fit a bunch of Fifth Doctor + Peri and Fifth Doctor + Peri + Erimem stories! 📯 📂 13:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Placement for Redacted?
I asked this on the Redacted talk page, but since I was apparently redirected here (hard to tell when someone just posts a link instead of an actual reply)... Do we know when in the Thirteenth Doctor's timeline this take places? Between which series/stories? Is it before Flux, or after Legend of the Sea Devils, or somewhere else? --TimPendragon ☎  00:15, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

We don’t know specifically, but considering that it’s set in 2022 and Graham and Ryan disappear from Earth, it would be strange for the Doctor to be from earlier in her own timeline. It’s more than likely after Flux. Eve of the Daleks is shortly after Flux, and Legend of the Sea Devils is immediately after Eve. And Redacted started airing after Legend of the Sea Devils so it makes sense that it goes there. SarahJaneFan ☎  00:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Secret in Vault 13 and other inconsistencies/oddities
Now that jodie's era is over I think it is time to smooth out the remaining kinks in the timeline. Can someone please tell me what is even going on with this one? I haven't read it yet. Looking at this talk page it seems to be all over the place.
 * 1. Secret in vault 13

continues from vault 13
 * 2. Maze of Doom

Yaz's birthday. but the profiles in all of the titan comics say she is 19, so that possibly places it after the timelord victorious stuff? Also she is 20 in "Vault 13".
 * 3. Dr. Thirteenth

Either goes right before mistress of chaos (Going by release date) or right after it (going by grouping the DWM stuff together).
 * 4. Old Friends

Either goes at the begining the subheading (TV release date) or where it is (novelisation release date).
 * 5. Day of the Doctor (first segment)

So because of brax's meddling causing everything surrounding ace to be "blurred and contradictory" after the events of "Love and War" wouldn't this be some sort of time splinter/clone of the doctor and not the real doctor?
 * 6. At Childhoods End

I hope as a comunity we can sort out these problems. Tellymustard ☎  19:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * No, why would it be a splinter of the Doctor? The whole point of the weirdness of Ace's timeline, as with Peri, is that there are multiple versions of her superimposed in the same wider universe. Her having different fates in different parallel universes with their own Earths and their own Doctors would just be business as usual. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 19:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I wasn’t sure about it.This makes more sense. Tellymustard ☎  21:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

1. The Secret of Vault 13 was one of the first pieces of 13th Doctor media released and was written with only the first Series 11 script and some character sheets for context. There’s quite a few continuity issues in it. For example Team TARDIS know all about the Doctor being a Time Lord from Gallifrey despite this being released before Spyfall. But virtually all pre-Series 12 13th Doctor material has this issue. The story states that Team TARDIS have been travelling with the Doctor for a few months and Ryan calls Graham grandad which suggests a setting towards the end of Series 11. They visit home in 2018, however it is stated that the Doctor returned them to the wrong time so that’s easily explainable.

2. The Maze of Doom picks up immediately from the cliffhanger at the end of The Secret of Vault 13 and references the events of Resolution explicitly. Ryan also states that he’s only been travelling with the Doctor for a short time. So both novels should be placed shortly after the events of Resolution.

3. The Titan comics all use the exact same profiles for the entire run. Yaz is supposed to be 19 at the beginning of Series 11 in 2018. The comics are still saying she’s 19 by the time of the Thirteenth Doctor Year 2 which are explicitly set in Series 12 after Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror, over a year after Series 11. Those profiles shouldn’t be followed, they’re just recycled material that haven’t been adjusted for the passing of time. Dr Thirteenth should go somewhere in Series 11 and before The Secret in Vault 13 where she has explicitly already turned 20.

4. Old Friends should go shortly before Time Out of Mind, as Ryan makes a comment about the Corsair that implies they encountered her recently. Time Out of Mind itself is a Christmas special and Graham and Ryan mention that it’s Christmas back at home and as earlier Titan stories were set in 2019 and had Ryan calling Graham grandad, this must be soon before Spyfall. The first year of Titan comics are difficult because they don’t feel like they take place over a long period of time, but the first one is clearly not set that far away from Series 11 and the last one is shortly before Series 12 so you unavoidably have to spread them out across the year.

5. It should be by the novelisation release date because Thirteen wasn’t in the tv story. I personally think it should be set somewhere around the time of Series 11. At least I don’t think it should be tied into her Series 12 arc at all as it was released years before it.

6. Agreed with Scrooge, and also sometimes there just are contradictions and it’s better for the integrity of the timeline that we present them as intended. It does no one any good to present At Childhood's End as being an alternate timeline for the Doctor specifically because we have no in-universe evidence of that beyond us knowing that there’s some dodgy stuff surrounding Ace’s history. SarahJaneFan ☎  23:12, 12 November 2022 (UTC)


 * 1. It seems like it should be post spyfall.
 * 2. The short time statement is more minor and subjective than the knoledge about the Timelords
 * 3. K
 * 4. This simply does not work. It needs to be before the lion, the glitch, and the war zone.
 * 5. If we are going by the novelization date it is good right now. The second segment is simply in the next solo gap.

Tellymustard ☎  12:18, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

1. Its 100% not after Spyfall. There’s no evidence to suggest it is unless you want to move literally all EU content with 13 to after Spyfall because virtually all of it has the same issues with the Fam knowing about the Doctor’s origins.

4. It does work because The Liar, The Glitch and the Warzone can take place anywhere in the timeline. It was written and released with absolutely no context of Series 11 because they weren’t even supposed to be publishing 13th Doctor stories yet. SarahJaneFan ☎