Talk:First Great Time War

Name
Why has the page been renamed? There has never been a conflict called the first Great Time War, this war is the Black Sun War. If the name first great time war had to be applied anywhere (and I don’t think it should) it should be the the Yssgaroth War (aka the Eternal War aka the Vampire War).Anastasia Cousins ☎  20:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I’d say it’s pretty obvious when the source is right next to the name, which makes that the valid name. As far as I can tell “Black Sun War” was never actually a real name given and just conjecturally given that name due to the Order of the Black Sun being involved. So obviously, yes, there has been a First Great Time War, which, based on the source, is this one. Also, for there to be a Last Great Time War, there has to a first. Danniesen ☎  21:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * can you please say which page of the Dalek Combat manual you can find reference to this war and the fact that it is called the First Great Time War. And like I said if there must be a first then the Yssgaroth war is far closer to being the First Great Time War. And also there does not have to be a first, time travel is present in a Time War allowing you to start a time war before the first? Now please do inform of the page number.Anastasia Cousins ☎  09:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Clearly any numbering would be from the perspective of The Great Houses, which is linear. I believe Davies at one point mentioned two earlier time wars as being the ones he thought about and they were completely new, but I can't find the source now that I'm looking for it. Najawin ☎  12:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * (I don't think it was Meet the Doctor, I think they were different ones still and it was an OOU statement. But I could be misremembering.) Najawin ☎  12:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Meet the Doctor has this to say on the matter. "There had been two Time Wars before this — the skirmish between the Halldons and the Eternals, and then the brutal slaughter of the Omnicraven Uprising — and on both occasions, the Doctor's people stepped in to settle the matter." I think this is entirely unhelpful, as these seem to be two new wars that RTD wrote, instead of acknowledging the pre-existing ones. 13:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * whilst the Great Houses are linear in most sources some suggest they are not truly I would also once more like to say I can not find anywhere in th Dalek Combat training manual which describes the Black Sun Awaremi as the First Great Time War? Not to mention there are conflicting sources on which was the first time war? Let alone the first Great Time War.Anastasia Cousins ☎  16:43, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

So "there are conflicting accounts as to which is the first" isn't relevant if this is called the first, as this is the page name, and page names don't have to be, strictly speaking, accurate. The rules surrounding page names on the wiki are a little weird. But if this is explicitly given the name "First Great Time War", we're done, that's the ball game. As for that name actually being given? User:Editoronthewiki added that, and I'm sure he'll say where when he notices this conversation. No need to worry until then. Najawin ☎  17:00, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Slides in, drops the quote from Dalek Combat Training Manual Editoronthewiki ☎  17:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

"When the Doctor fled from Gallifrey, it wasn’t just a Type Forty TT Capsule that he appropriated. Probably coerced by the CIA (Matrix records have been edited), he also took the Hand of Omega – the Remote Stellar Manipulator designed and built by Omega in the Old Time, and the very tool that was used to convert the star that gave us the power for our initial time travel experiments. (For additional data see ‘Fenris, the Black Sun and the First Great Time War’ by Lord Griffin.)"

- Dalek Combat Training Manual


 * I have found the quote it is on page 29 my apologies, thank you Editoronthewiki that is all I wanted I am honestly surprised that the Black Sun War is referenced in this book. Which is why I took such umbrage with it. I honestly could not believe my eyes when I saw the Dalek Combat Manual (a book I own and have read several times) mention the Black Sun War. I was blinded by my bias against new who terminology, and sources. And whilst I except that this must now be the name for the page, and must remain the name of the page. I would like it to be noted I do not like the Black Sun War being given a name retroactively by the Dalek Combat manual, especially one so dull and obvious as the first great time war. How would Allan Moor react. Knowing him he would be very annoyed. this is a very much milder version of what the Ancestor Cell did with Lawrence Mile’s creations. Like I said this should and by all the rules or the wiki remain the name and I will stand by this. This page must remain (unless a future officially source gives a better name)the First Great Time War.Anastasia Cousins ☎  22:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Rename
As the above discussion illustrates, while there is technically a valid source for the term "First Great Time War", it's messy as a title because it retro-imposes a NuWho-specific frame on a conflict from stories which long predated NuWho. We've come a long way in terms of considering early stories on their own terms (for instance regarding the Doctor's species) rather than always squeezing them into the narrow frame of later continuity; this should be no exception. TheChampionOfTime proposed a rename of this page to 4-D War, which I think is a great idea and should be discussed. Thoughts? – n8 (☎) 15:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) The term is from the original source: as the climactic line of the final panels of the conflict's first appearance proclaims, "We Are Fighting A 4-D War, My Child… Perhaps They Are Punishing Us For Crimes We Have Yet To Commit!" Therefore there's no imposition of later framing, and we're considering the story on its own terms.
 * 2) The term is unique: while "4-D war" could plausibly refer to any time war, this remains the only conflict referred to as the 4-D capital-W War, just as The Book of the War references prior wars in heaven but there is only one War in Heaven.
 * 3) The term is intuitive: the conflict was introduced in 4-D War (comic story), so titling the conflict accordingly automatically answers the question of what story it debuts in. I expect this would have been the page's name from the start if not for the wiki's original practice of not dabbing stories, which created a conflict with the story page.