Howling:Regeneration cube?

I remember back in March, that there was word of a "Gallifreyan Regeneration Cube" set that was going to be released around Christmas time. Speculation was at the time that the Cube was a means of resurrecting a Time Lord, and this would presumably be how the Doctor avoided the 13-regeneration limit in the season finale. Well, the season finale was come and gone, and the Regeneration Cube hasn't been heard of for a while. No word if the Cube will feature in the Christmas special. Does anyone have any idea of what this "Cube" really was? -- Bold  Clone  22:44, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think the point has been mooted by the events of Let's Kill Hitler. We know regenerations can be taken from one time lord and given to another, and that's what happened there -- she gave him all of hers. Making the shaky assumption that we have seen all of her regenerations (Day of the Moon and Let's Kill Hitler) and that she had the Gallifreyan twelve regenerations (another shaky assumption), knock out this one and the 10th Doctor's meta-critical non-regeneration and that gives him a total of twenty-one lives. Add in the assumption that he might have wound up with another cycle or two in the Last Great Time War and that River's irregular Time Lord status has 507 regenerations and regeneration cubes are a moot point. Where did you hear of them anyway? Boblipton talk to me 01:45, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Where are you getting the idea that River gave the Doctor all of her regenerations? The Doctor was dying, and since she was still regenerating she was able to transfer some of that regeneration energy to the dying Doctor. It took the energy from the rest of her regenerations as well, but it was all used up healing the Doctor. Nowhere was it stated that the Doctor now has the magical ability to use up somebody else's regenerations. Besides, do you think that the Doctor could live with himself knowing that his ability to live past 13 came at the expense of the woman he loved dying after only 2 regenerations-even if he already knew that she wouldn't have a chance to regenerate again anyway? I remember hearing something about those cubes too-they were a toy that was going to be marketed around Christmas or something like that. Maybe it was just a made up name for the hypercubes, or maybe it's something from the Christmas special. Anyway, if it is actually something that has to do with regeneration, I would think that it would be more like the zero room, and not something capable of accomplishing the impossible task of regenerating more than 12 times. If they do decide to cheat this fundamental law of Time Lord biology, they probably won't deal with it until the Thirteenth Doctor decides to leave.Icecreamdif talk to me 05:11, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Icecreamdif: Most of what you say is spot on. One point is questionable, however: "If they do decide to cheat this fundamental law of Time Lord biology": There's quite enough in the "classic" series to cast doubt on it being a fundamental law of Time Lord biology. When (in The Five Doctors) the Time Lords offered the Master a complete new cycle of regenerations, the Master showed no trace of doubt that they could do exactly that. He didn't even ask how they could do it -- he clearly knew full well that it was possible. That still does nothing to indicate how, with the rest of the Time Lords gone, the Doctor could gain further regenerations but it does show that the 12-regeneration limit isn't insuperable. --89.240.242.174 12:02, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

@Boblipton: I heard about the "Regeneration Cube" from a Doctor Who forum, and when I looked up the phrase on Google, all I was able to find was that the cube was supposed to be person-sized, and had the Seal of Rassilon on it. -- Bold  Clone  17:20, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

89, I don't know if you saw the rest of that episode, but perpetual regeneration was stated to be something known of only in legend in that very episode. The entire purpose behind everything that Borusa did was to unlock Rassilon's ancient secret to regenerate more than twelve times. The Master was a special case, because he wasn't actually a Time Lord at that point-he was a Trakenite. I always assumed that they were offering him a new Time Lord body, or the ability to transform Tremas' body into that of a Time Lord. If the president could bargain with any old criminal by simply offering to give them extra regenerations, then nothing that he did in the episode makes any sense. Being a Trakenite must have made the Master special somehow.Icecreamdif talk to me 18:37, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I did see the rest of the episode and I do know that "perpetual bodily regeneration" was something Time Lords didn't have. For most of the episode, they were far from sure Rassilon had it. None of that, however, alters the fact that the Time Lords could offer the Master a new cycle of regenerations without him questioning their ability to deliver. (He might not have been so sure of their intention to deliver, but that's a different matter.) That means it has to have been something already known and not something untried that depended on the Master's special circumstances -- otherwise, his first question would have been "How do you propose to do that?" or words to the same effect. He knew they could do it, which means it was something that had been done before. Bear in mind, they were not offering him "perpetual bodily regeneration"; they were offering a new cycle of regenerations -- one new cycle, no more -- and a new cycle of regenerations is what he knew they could give. --89.241.66.83 03:57, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

It's been awhile since I've seen the episode but yeah from what I recall there was never any discussion about how they would do it just that they could and offered it to him. I think the most probable thing is that the time lords have laws that prevent anyone, even the President, just getting a new cycle. However in the case of the Master he was a renegade and a criminal so it sounds more like a backroom/under the table deal. The Light6 talk to me 08:58, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

That was the impression I got, too. --2.96.29.73 (formerly 89.241.66.83) 09:52, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

But if the council could appoint new regeneation cycles to anyone they chose, then wouldn't Borusa try to either manipulate the council into giving him a new cycle, or try to steal the ability for himself. Then, all he would have to do would be to grant himself a new cycle every time he reached 13. IIt wouldn't be an easy task, but it would likely be easier than his ridiculously complicated plan to bring five incarnations of the Doctor, the Master, a good chunk of the Doctor's past companions, and a lot of his enemies in order to get a technology from Rassilon that he was only rumored to posess. He's lucky his plan worked as well as it did. Well, "lucky" might not be the right word. Anyway, it's possible that the Time Lords had granted regeneration to non-Time Lords in the past. If so, then they could use the same process to give the Trakenite-Master the ability to regenerate.Icecreamdif talk to me 00:36, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Clearly you lack a degree in Galllifreyan law. So do I. Boblipton talk to me 01:01, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

What goes on in The Five Doctors suggests, without ever explaining, that there was some kind of difference between the "perpetual bodily regeneration" that Rassilon had (or was believed to have) and a succession of "normal" regenerations. Borusa, for one, obviously thought the difference was important. To speculate: It might simply be that a prolonged succession of "normal" regenerations would require the co-operation of other Time Lords (who might refuse) but Rassilon's "perpetual bodily regeneration" would be independent of such co-operation. Of course, there might have been some other difference -- we can only speculate because we weren't told. --2.101.55.167 01:29, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

But if a Time Lord had infinite regenerations, then they would still be immortal (unless they die before regeneration). What Borusa was really after was immortality. The whole purpose of Rassilon's trap in the Death Zone was to get rid of anyone who sought immortality (which makes him look like a bit of a hypocrite in The End of Time), but if all one had to do to gain immortality was to break the law, then nobody would bother with the Death Zone. From what we've seen of Gallifreyan law enforcement, breaking the law isn't exactly difficult. Icecreamdif talk to me 03:17, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Because breaking the law means you are targeted by a whole society of Timelords who know very well how to kill you regardless of the number of regenerations you get. --222.166.181.173 08:14, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Only if you get caught. He was breaking the law anyway in that episode, and after he got caught he probably wished that they had killed him. It wouldn't be easy to steal a new regeneration cycle without getting caught, but it can't be any harder than taking immortality from Rassilon.Icecreamdif talk to me 16:00, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

now you are just arguing for the sake of it, if you assume he has no fear of getting caught, then not only is there no discussion but you have also came up with a character that has some sort of unpredictable mental problem making him defies logic. We offer you a clear sensible explanation that fits well with the context, you decided to make an unreasonable assumption that would make everything inconsistent and irrational, then I afraid there's no discussion. A lot of us would fail to understand your distorted universe. --222.166.181.212 17:05, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Of course he fears getting caught, but he is obviously willing to take risks. If he felt that he could send the Doctors into the tower of Rassilon and take over the time scoop without getting caught, then he could have easily devised a way to increase his regenerative cycle by other means, if they existed, without getting caught. My assumption is not unreasonable. Their have been tons of episodes that treat the 12 regeneration cycle like a natural law, and literally one reference in one episode to grating a Time Lord, who wasn't even a Gallifreyan at the time, a new cycle of regenerations. Since the entire plot of the episode had to do with Borusa seeking infinite regenerations, it seems more likely that a normal Time Lord can't just be given a new regeneration cycle.Icecreamdif talk to me 19:59, December 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Um, so does anyone actually know what I'm talking about? In story, we don't know if River gave the Doctor her remaining regenerations, or just expended all of her regeneration energy at once. Regardless, I'm just wondering if anyone else heard the same rumor and know what it might be. -- Bold  Clone  21:17, December 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * "In story, we don't know if River gave the Doctor her remaining regenerations, or just expended all of her regeneration energy at once": All the dialog fits the latter (expending them all); none even hints at the former. --89.241.70.10 22:39, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. It was never suggested that she gave the Doctor her remaining regenerations, and it wouldn't make sense if she did, given the context. I also heard the rumor about the regeneration cube, but I have no idea what it was supposed to be, or why it hasn't appeared in any episodes. The cube was just a toy, wasn't it? Maybe it just wasn't from the show and is something that they made up. It's around Christmas now, so do you know if that thing ever got released?Icecreamdif talk to me 23:13,December 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Since you apparantly haven't read the earlier discussion at the top of the page, I was refering to Boplipton. We don't know if River gave the Doctor her remaining regenerations or not, although we think it is probably not, regardless of any precendent that may or may not have been established the the classic "Doctor Who" series. -- Bold  Clone  22:30, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. We don't know. We also don't not know. We know it is theoretically possible to transfer regenerations from one Time Lord to another. We know that River used up all her regenerations to -- rather vaguely -- counteract the effects of the Judas-Tree poison. Since we don't know how regeneration operates, don't know how a transfer of regenerations works, don't know what River did, how she did it or how accurately she did it -- as an awful analogy, was it a jump-start or a recharge? -- nor do we have any reason to believe she had any particular training in the technique... well, despite all these uncertainties, we seem to have a lot of people who seem convinced they know exactly what the effects are. We can, like the old couple who broke all the dishes arguing about what they would have named the children if they had had any, argue long and earnestly about the matter, or express our hopes and wait to see what, if anything, the show-runner does in about, oh, ten or fifteen years. Me, I hope they get around the limit of twelve regenerations, and this would be as good a gobbledegook reason as anything. We might see a regeneration cube. We might see the White Guardian or the Easter Bunny show up. I like the simplicity of River indulging in overkill -- pun intended -- and now the Doctor has 21 lives, plenty of time to figure out the next way to get around that limit. Meanwhile, we have seen nothing more substantial about a regeneration cube than someone read about it in "a Doctor Who forum" some time around March. Boblipton talk to me 00:43, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I remember seeing it in a more substantial source somewhere, but I can't remember where. Anyway, it clearly didn't come to pass. From what we saw, there is really no reason to believe that River transferred her regenerations to the Doctor for him to use at his leisure. If for no other reason, then because they would have made it much more clear if that were the case. Leaving it ambiguous would be completely pointless. It would seem extremely random if in 20 years or so, the 13th Doctor died and said "Oh, thank God I got an extra regeration cycle from River Song back in season 6, or I'd be dead right now." None of the dialogue does anything close to suggesting that the Doctor gained all of River Song's regenerations. When the 13th Doctor is ready to leave, they'll either come up with an explanation then, ignore it(which would probably piss off a lot of fans), or end the show. It's still pretty early for Moffat to be dealing with what will likely be somebody else's problem, and if he were to deal with it he would have been much more clear about it than he was in Let's Kill Hitler.Icecreamdif talk to me 03:34, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Could be. Or maybe he wants to get it in early for someone to use later if he so chooses. How many people here -- including me -- are dissatisfied by Mels just popping up in the show as an old friend, when she could have been mentioned in a snatch of dialogue earlier. Anyway, that's not this year's problem. Boblipton talk to me 12:42, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I definetly agree with you about Mels. If we had already heard of her, or even seen her, at some point, then her identity wouldn't have been quite as obvious. Anyway, if he was setting it up for the future writers, he really would have had to have made it more obvious. There would have been a bit of dialogue that said that his lifespan was significantly inceased, or something like that. As it is, it would just seem completely out of the blue if they used that as an explanation. It would seem just as random as if they said that his regeneration cycle was reset by the cloning machine that made Jenny, or any of another million explanations that they can use. If they do choose to go past 13 Doctors, then the plot where 13 regenerates would probably have to focus on someghing that would allow him to live longer.Icecreamdif talk to me 07:31, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

i agree with the thing about mels. i also think that the way they should act on the final regeneration is having the doctor think he's going to die, then he regenerates, and is completely confuzzled as to why he regenerated instead of dying. then they might go on tho try and think of events that might have extended his regeneration limit, mentioning the part from let's kill hitler alsong with any other events over the course of the show they think could plausibly have contributed to his extended life. that probably wouldn't anger many "13's the limit" fans as the doctor would be as confused about it as they would be, it would mean the show wouldn't need to end and i alt least think it would be interesting to watch. Imamadmad talk to me 11:14, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Unless he actually does eventually find out why he was able to regenerate more than 12 times, that would be completely useless. It would hardly be a step up from "I'll explain later." I'm still waiting for him to explain how he and H.G. Wells survived. Anyway, I think they should keep the show going for another 20 years or so, and come up with a twelfth and thirteenth Doctor, and then just end it when 13 is ready to leave. I'd rather it continue to be a really good show and end on a high note when 13 dies, then slowly decay into a relatively weak show before it gets cancelled, like it did in the 80s.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:13, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you. It's quite clear what Moffat is really doing, he's restoring the Who in Doctor Who. Everything he does add questions to the nature and identity of the Doctor. The last two series answered almost none of the questions posed, and I think it is an intentional attempt to restore Doctor Who to his original identity to make sure that we know almost nothing about the Doctor. RTD's little remark and his together would make us all but certain about the uncertainty of Doctor's regeneration. Big Bang 2 make us once again uncertain of the Doctor's history and the world the story takes place in. Silence must fall when the question is asked again makes us question who really is the Doctor. Were these executed well? I certainly believe they could have been done much better than the mess we ended up here but the intention is clear: Moffat wants to keep the debate and questions going. --222.166.181.251 03:31, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Rebooting the universe doesn't make the Doctor any more or less mysterious. The Doctor's name was already mysterious enough, and episodes like The Girl in the Fireplace, The Fires of Pompeii, and of course Forest of the Dead effectively reminded the audience that there was a huge mystery behind the Doctor's name. However, by turning it into a plot point in The Wedding of River Song, Moffat is pretty much going to have to give us an answer to the question. I will not be surprised if we do not actually learn his name, mainly because no name could really live up to the expectations we have after 50 years, but we will probably at least learn why his name must be kept secret, which will make him at least a little bit more mysterious. I'm all for keeping him a mysterious character, but after 50 years, you can't keep the main character fully mysterious forever. When the show began, he was just some old guy who was probably an alien who had a granddaughter and a time machine, and could change his face somehow. That format really wouldn't have worked forever though, which is why we learned so much about him in The War Games, which is possibly the single best episode in the show's history. When a show presents the audience with a mystery, it is expected that the mystery will eventually be solved. Of course, there is nothing wrong with adding new mysteries to compensate for this. They tried that during the Seventh Doctor's time, though they didn't really go anywhere with that, and RTD succesfully added several new mysteries involving the Time War and the Doctor's role in it when he took over the show. Allowing the Doctor to regenerate more than 12 times without a real explanation, however, would be a pretty lame mystery, unless it was the beginning of a plot arc that explained how it was done. It would just feel more like lazy writing, than anything.Icecreamdif talk to me 05:37, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

uh...I don't think you get it. I am quite certain RTD and Moffat's intention is to not to create a mystery about why the Doctor regenerated more than 12 times in the future but rather it's more like "can the Doctor regenerate more than 12 times". The Meta-Crisis, the Eleventh's remark, the River Song incident, they all serve to create a mystery about how many regenerations the Doctor has. We are not seeing fall of Eleventh soon as far as we know, so the point of Silence is probably to create a mystery for the entire eleventh incarnation of the Doctor. Now people are uncertain about Donna's, Rose's, etc's statuses and histories, Doctor's regenerations left, how will Eleventh's silence concerning the question comes about and they are discussing on this forum, so guess whose writing is successful in sparking debates? Call it lazy writing if you may, but you are its victim. --222.166.181.212 15:50, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

What they've done so far isn't lazy writing. Some of it isn't particularly good writing, but none of it has been lazy yet. What I was saying would have been lazy was Imamadmad's suggestion of letting the Doctor regenerate more than 12 times, aknowledging it, and then offering no explanation. That's just as bad as having the Doctor and H.G. Wells be facing certain death, only for the Doctor to appear in the next scene telling Peri that he will explain how they survived later. Right now, they haven't really shed any doubt at all to the Doctor's regeneration limit, with the exception of his comment in the Sarah Jane Adventures, which really seemed more like a joke that RTD threw in to bug fans than anything else. The metacrisis had nothing to do with the regeneration limit. Maybe he wasted a regeneration on that, maybe he didn't. It doesn't make him any more mysterious than the Time Lords forcing him to regenerate in The War Games was, and whether that used up a regeneration or not was left just as ambiguous. If anything, the only mystery it adds is whether the Doctor even can regenerate twelve times, or if there's only one more after Smith. Really, though, all that the metacrisis partial regeneration was was a way to turn the hand into another Doctor to help move that story along. Literally nothing in the River Song scene even came close to suggesting that she somehow transferred her regenerations to him. I believe the line was something along the lines of "I gave up all my remaining regenerations to save him." There was nothing, at all, to suggest that he can now regenerate more times because of that. We all want some kind of aknowledgement that they will find a way to continue the show after his 13th incarnation is ready to leave, so we are seeing answers that aren't there. If they do choose to work around his regeneration limit, then it will be done in a Thirteenth Doctor episode.Icecreamdif talk to me 16:04, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Icecreamdif is spot on. The scenes in Let's Kill Hitler did not suggest any transfer of regenerations and all the surrounding dialog said (not suggested but said) that she'd used up (expended) all her remaining regenerations in overcoming the effects of the poison. There's a good reason for that. Suppose River had transfered multiple regenerations to the Doctor: What would it say about his character if he didn't make a very, very determined effort to transfer them (or as many of them as possible) back to her? --89.241.79.130 19:04, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

just fyi, in my suggestion, i didn't mean for it to be ignored, but have the doctor try to figure out why he got extra regenerations. maybe i made that part unclear, but it could easily turn into a story arc with the doctor trying to find out how he is still alive when he should have died. it's at least better than endng the show or completely ignoring the fact or even just referencing a past event. Imamadmad talk to me 05:35, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

You didn't make that part clear, which is a pity because it's a very good point. If done well (and that's always the main "if"), it could be a worthwhile story arc. Personally -- and I know tastes differ -- I'd prefer it to be a background arc, rather than a foreground one, so the Doctor is trying to find out but other, more urgent, stuff keeps happening that he's got to deal with as a matter of priority. That way, the stories wouldn't be about his efforts to find out, they'd be about all the incidents that keep getting in his way. Something like that was done at the start of the 1970s, when the (3rd) Doctor was constantly trying to get the TARDIS working again but a succession of incidents (Autons, the Master, Silurians, etc.) kept happening to drag him away from that work. Repairing the TARDIS was never the main thing going on but it was always going on, whenever the Doctor had a spare moment to devote to it. --78.146.189.157 17:14, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think those episodes also made it pretty clear that the Doctor had no hope of succeeding. If the Time Lords wanted him to stay on Earth, he was going to stay on Earth, so all that the minor background plot arc of the Doctor trying to repair his TARDIS showed was that he was trying to escape his exile, and that he would never be able to do so. Imamadmad, in my original reply to your suggestion, I did say that it could work if the Doctor did eventually find out why he was able to regenerate more than 12 times(or maybe I didn't make that clear). Anyway, that might work, as long as they didn't wait more than a season or two before the answer is revealed. I think it might work better if his actual regeneration story involved him somehow gaining a new cycle. If not, he can always do what the Master did when he ran out of regenerations.Icecreamdif talk to me 20:36, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

"those episodes also made it pretty clear that the Doctor had no hope of succeeding": Yes. I was referring only to the prominence (or lack thereof) that his efforts were given in the stories -- always there but almost never in the foreground.

"that might work, as long as they didn't wait more than a season or two before the answer is revealed": Here, I'd say that how long they could spin it out would depend on how they did it. Properly handled, it could be kept going for quite a long time; badly handle, it'd get annoying very quickly. -- (I was 78.146.189.157 but I expect it's changed again) 89.242.75.93 22:22, December 6, 2011 (UTC)