Forum:Magnus, Divided Loyalties and more

This thread was blanked by CzechOut at 14:21: Tue 06 Nov 2012. I am re-blanking and editing this forum post down to the most recent edits by 41.133.0.18 in order bring some clarity to the discussion that the previous copied text from the Magnus talk page did not.

The original discussion was at Talk:Magnus.

To 41.133.0.18 do not copy and past the text from that talk page. Users who wish to follow the discussion so far can go to that talk page.

Panopticon forum threads propose changes in the way we do things on this wiki. In simple terms, please restate what it is you're trying to change, and what supporting evidence you have for that change. --Tangerineduel / talk 15:50, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

This started on the Magnus article. An original point stating that Gary Russell explicitly stated that Magnus in Flashback(comic) was always meant to be The Master. It grew from there.

Summary
1)Gary Russell himself states that both he and Warwick Scott Gray agreed that the Magnus in Flashback(comic) is The Master.

2)The questions as to why/when/where things like Death Comes to time and Dimensions in Time are labelled non-DWU still stand. When did the creators of these, the Cushing movies, or various stories that tie into Dimensions in Time ever say those stories were non-DWU? And if they didn't what were the criteria for listing them as non-DWU here? Surely those criteria should be applied the same to every story, not just those select few?

3)Even if it is felt, for whatever reason, that the War Chief and the Master are two separate characters, there is clearly NOTHING in any media that states that they can not be the same character. 41.133.0.18talk to me 13:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

...Oh, and another point. The fact that Malcolm Hulke(writer of, amongst others, the War Games) stated that the Master and the Doctor were the only two renegade Time Lords he ever wrote for was dismissed, because it was "non-narrative". Yet, the supposed reason Death Comes Time is excluded from the DWU is because of a real-world statement that somebody thought he saw somewhere. The real reason is of course because it contradicts the established continuity to the point where no amount of fanwankery can reconcile it with established fact. Same as Divided Loyalties. Of course, if that real-world("non-narrative") statement is valid, then what about Russell's or Hulke's or...? 41.133.0.18talk to me 13:55, November 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * This issue is obviously very important to you. However, you don't seem to care about the people you are trying to convince. This page is a long wall of text that will turn away many readers. Instead of copy/pasting the other arguments, try giving a short summary of your arguments. Then you might get more discussion. Shambala108 ☎  14:49, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

It started off at the Magnus disambiguation page. Basically, a post by Gary Russell stating that Mag(n)us from the Flashback(comic) was always supposed to be The Master. Confirmed by Warwick Scott Gray, the person who actually wrote Flashback(comic). And that there is nothing in any media which makes that an impossibility. Someone else then took that to mean that I was stating that the War Chief is the Master. Not my original intent, but he said he was "going to support me". This site's policy is that anything in a Target novelisation which gives extra background to, without contradicting the original tv serial counts. so, the long passages of text are from Target novelisations of The War Games, Terror of the Autons, The Doomsday Weapon(Colony in Space) and The Sea Devils. As well as a real-world interview with Malcolm Hulke. This was then greeted with "But what about Timewyrm:Exodus and Divided Loyalties?" So, it was then a job to show how Timewyrm:Exodus doesn't contradict any of the above. Fine. Then came the biggie "Divided Loyalties". I had to give text from that book, as well as text from other narrative sources, showing how it can't possibly exist in the same universe. Another user appeared, demanding I take it to the forum, and locking that discussion. Someone else, then said that Death Comes to Time is excluded because someone supposedly said somewhere that it was non-canon. Despite no evidence. This, despite Hulke's and Russell's real-world statements being dismissed as "non-narrative"! The only way to get everything here, was to place the entire discussion here. Simply glimpsing bits will omit the development. The same person who locked the earlier discussion then blanked this one. They have also yet to actually state their position. 41.133.0.18talk to me 15:00, November 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh. earlier, the same person told me that "the burden of proof [was] on [me] to show that Round 4 Part 3 of divided Loyalties can't be part of the DWU". Immediately after I did so, he locked the discussion, saying it's "unfair to other users". 41.133.0.18talk to me 15:04, November 6, 2012 (UTC)