Howling:Dreams

I've been puzzled by the point of the bit in TToA where River quotes from the book "What if we had ideas that could think for themselves? What if one day our dreams no longer needed us? When these things occur and are held to be true, then the time will be upon us. "The Time of angels"", and there's a lot of dream related bits in other episodes as follows:

TEH the coma patients dreaming and all saying "Doctor", PZ says about little Amelia "Dreaming of the magic doctor she knows will return to save her", Amy then dreaming of the room and what she saw in it forces PZ to replicate himself so the Atraxi can recapture it,

TBB Liz 10 brought up on legends of the Doctor who turns out to be real ?

VotD Bracewell remembering his artifical memories to stop the bomb

TToA / FaS hallucinogenic lipstick induces a dream state, the quote at top of this post

TVoV Roseanna says to the Doctor "Remember us. Dream of us..."

AC 2 dreamworlds both seeming totally real, the Dream Lord's refection in the console

THE / CB ? Eldane's speech about not forgetting the past or the Doctor and his losses etc

VatD ?

so my theory is that in TPO / TBB Amy remembers in her dreams things which have been erased from reality, ie Rory and the Doctor and the TARDIS and somehow this brings them all back

Any thoughts? 86.26.137.154 06:21, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

TL The Doctor says to Craig "...but frankly I'm an absolute dream." 86.26.137.154 09:04, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

TPO Rory says to the Doctor "Just here like I'd woken up from a dream.Started to think it was a dream. You and Amy and Leadworth" 86.26.137.154 07:50, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, I've been thinking for quite a while now that all the dream references are a way go leading up to the "but the whole series 5 is a dream" -- but as a red herring. Beside just being terrible, there are things that quite literally point out the link to reality, such as the Byzantium adventure being referenced by River in a previous story with Doc 10 (in the Library after handcuffing the Doc).

But I do subscribe to her remembering something and bringing it back. I don't know if it will be everyone/everything, but it will at least be Rory. I think the Doc has to fix at least some of this on his own. BrainySpecs 08:11, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

So let's look at the dialogue again:"What if we had ideas that could think for themselves? What if one day our dreams no longer needed us? When these things occur and are held to be true, then the time will be upon us. "The Time of angels"" Doesn't make sense in terms of what we saw in the actualy story. It could just be mood dilogue but ... What are the 'ideas' that are thinking for themselves? It reads like something that is imagined has become real, an idea has taken on form and is now a thinkng (and living?) thing. The question becomes what is it that has become real.
 * The pandorica is inspired from a fiction but it doesn't seem to be the thinking kind.
 * The Doctor appears after Amy wished for him (I do believe in fairies, I do! I do!) is he a fiction made real?
 * Young Amy is a fairytale? Made real from the Doctor's imagination; his need for a companion? Is she now able to make him real in return?
 * Older Amy a figment of the imagination of a scared child wanting to be safe?
 * Amy's house, not the thinking kind of thing unless it's haunted with terrible memories.

It would be sad to see eveything wev'e seen this washed away as it was 'all a dream' and I really Don't think that Moffat is so unimaginative. However, I have no problems thematically with a bluring or 'reality' and 'fiction'; reality forming around fantasy. It might be a bit meta-fictional but old Doctor Who did touch on these ideas. Jack Chilli 08:59, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Thinking again we did see something being made real from an idea. The Angel in Amy's mind was becoming real from an idea; a memory of an image. An example of fiction becoming real? Jack Chilli 09:02, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Adding to what Jack just said, I'd like to point out that Moff seems to like the idea that knowing yourself or thinking you are human somehow makes you so, even if you're not. think: VoTD, Bracewell "becomes human" by remembering "himself," or Rory in TPO, who isn't the real Rory at all but manages to hold off turning into an evil killing machine by "remembering" his implanted memories. Very "Bladerunner"-esque. 134.94.242.98 12:33, June 22, 2010 (UTC)Roquelle

I do also think all this is very consistent with the Who-love that Moff has been showing quite blatantly throughout the series, and which would make sense given that he's just newly signed on as the lead producer. Think about it. Ideas can be real. Fantasies are as powerful as realities if we give weight to them. Young Amy needing her Doctor is the same as us, his viewing audience, learning and loving and believing in the Doctor. Anyhow, this theme just seems like something that HAS to be central in some way. 134.94.242.98 12:35, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

My take on this is that it's all part of the 'fairy tale' theme that's been running through the series. The Doctor saying that Amelia Pond sounds like a fairy tale, and that the Pandorica was just a fairy tale. Bracewell and Rory 'becoming human' like Pinocchio. The Beast Below has some little red riding hood imagery, as well as the 'evil beast' actually being a big friendly creature, which is fairly common in fairy tales. Angels are obviously very fairy tale. The Krafayis is quite similar to the cockatrice of mythology. Love conquering all in the Lodger, a very common theme from fairy tales. And of course, Amy's Choice is practically one big fairy tale. 115.69.5.221 13:05, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

then there is when the doctor says 'thats just a fairy tale' River says 'Arnt we all'. remember that she knows how this ends when she said that, she know something 217.23.232.194 13:12, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

There was something very strange that River said in TPO, something like: "I hate good wizards, they always turn out to be Him". I wonder if that is a clue ? 187.113.112.216 15:14, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Shame no-one took me seriously when I started this thread 'cos I was sort of on the right lines. Smug! 86.26.137.154 08:21, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I took this as just an in-joke, because the Doctor was once said to become Merlin in a potential future timeline. Not sure of any others, although ha, he got locked in the box prior to the age of (fictional) Camelot, now, didn't he? Agonaga 18:46, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, your point was pretty interesting. I think they put that line in as a sort of explanation of how the doctor comes back, and continued the dream theme throughout. Since the doctors existence was no longer in Amy's conscious mind, it would also be in her subconscious, which is known to manifest in dreams.86.164.120.218 15:08, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

''' This is actually very interesting, and quite helpful. See I've been wondering for a while what the base point of the new series will be. Of course, it's about 'The Silence', but that just isn't enough information for me. Anyway, I thought that I'd add something. It might be nothing, but I've noticed a few subtle hints based around River Song and The Doctor. 'Silence In The Library' (series four, episode eight) and 'Forest Of The Dead' (series four, episode nine) include a dream world. A reality in which people from the library have been 'saved' into a virtual world, for lack of a better term. My point is that perhaps this dream theme (excuse my cheesiness), is centred around River Song, supposedly carrying some relation of sorts to The Doctor (presumably his wife, as revealed in series five). Maybe it's an intentional build up to the truth to be revealed in the oncoming series six. '''However, on the other hand (unfortunate how there always seems to be another side of things), it could be nothing. I just thought I'd post this as, like The Doctor himself says "Never ignore a coincidence - unless you're busy, in which case always ignore a coincidence."''' ~ Guess Who'''