Howling:"The Master will come back with the Time Lords - more evil than ever!"

What is wrong with a majority of the Doctor Who fanbase? Does no one listen to commentary, interviews, anything by the writers of developers? Or even pay attention to the story? The Daleks keep coming back, yeah, but the Time Lords have never been arecurring enemy that is destroyed and always comes back, and they were destroyed in something that no one can access - a time lock. No one can go back and save them, we clearly see them in the very last day of the Time War, and they clearly admit they're on the verge of destruction. They were, what, a few hours away from being incinerated, reduced to dust?

On their fianl day, their last hours of Gallifrey, they had one tiny chance of survival. They send the sigal back in time to the Master, that's all. Their plan of returning almost worked, but right there, at the last minute, the Master wanted nothing but to destroy them for what they did. Right when Gallifrey - which was minutes away from destruction - descends away from Earth, one of the Time Lords on the planet directly screams that "Gallifrey falls!" right as we last see Gallifrey. We saw it right before it was destroyed. We know it gets destroyed, and we know everyone dies with it.

How is Gallifrey going to come back from the time war after we already know that it does get destroyed? If that happen, it would be even earlier on the Time War timeline (before the last day of the war), which doesnt happen. If the Time Lords were saved even earlier in the Time War (in a future episode), then why do we see them not saved on the last day of the Time War in The End of Time, the last hours? Because they were not saved, and therrfore won't be saved. It's called chronogogy - we, the fans, know what happens.

Like Abelaide's death, the death of the Time Lords and Gallifrey is forever a fixed point in time, beyond that, even. Back when the Ninth Doctor was introduced, the events involving the last day of the Time War had already happened - he just didn't know what was going in, which was part of his future. It's the time stuff, it gets confusing. Gallifrey's timeline in the Time War does not run with main timeline. It's got its own timeline that interacted with ours in The End of Time - Christmas 2009 Earth interacted with the end of the Rassilon era Gallifrey.

No matter where the Doctor travels in our timeline, he can't find a time when Gallifrey is not destroyed, past, present, or future, anymore. People go overboard with fanfiction when they go on about how the Time Lords will reutnr again with the Master leading them, ect.. Everyone accepted that they would return at least once. But we know how and why: they had this one tiny chance. On their final day, they went to extreme measures and ruined the Master's whole life with a four beat rythem. That was their only chance. If they had others, they would have used them earlier in the war. If they did, they failed, because they're on their final day. Now people say things are stupid as the Master going into the Time War, undoing it (which would erase the events of the entire revived series because it would re-crease everything, such as the Doctor's past two and a half, affect the events of stories that related to the Time War, everything). Quite frankly, the BBC doesn't have the budget to do things like that. They can't even show much of the Time War because it would cost the budget of a movie. The can show a little bit of the war, like what happened to the city dome seen in The End of Time.

Syeven Moffat has gone dow saying more than once that he really isn't interested in continuing the Time War story; however, he does find Russess idea and work of it interesting. But as Steven Moffat has said, they can't go into the whole story of the Time War, ever, because they have nowhere near enough money to do that. He said the closest we will ever get to knowing what happened in the war will be audio, or in novels set during it. And as the wiki also says, he was asked by RTD what he wanted the Time Lord's fate to be - "keep them." Basically, when Russel T. Davies left, he took them with him, destroyed them, and didn't leave a return open. Steven Moffat doesn't look into the past, he isn't into brigning things back over and over again (he has the Daleks, but the Daleks are the iconic never-dying villains that everyone knows they love), he makes NEW enemies. He introduces new characters, new stories. He is continuing the story, but he isn't continuing the previous story arcs.

He is barely even bothered about bringing any classic villains back - he might one or twice is the script it really good, and for a bit of nostalgia for older fans. The only story arc he is continuing is River Song's story, which he clearly wrote as being at its end when we first saw it, and that it was something that would happen in the Doctor's future (timeline-crossing and all of that). The Weeping Angels were featred once, in the new series, they became a fan favourite, and they're brilliant. If I were him, I would have chosen to bring them back for a two-part story, too. Give them more screen time.

And as noted, the Master redeemed himself. Several times throughout his last story, his literally bonded with the Doctor. We all know they rediscovered parts of their friendship. The Master even said "please" for the Doctor to listen to the four beat rythem the first time. In one scene in the second part, the Doctor told him how he would make a good companion (never said the word companion, but mentioned traveling with him), and that he knows he has good inside him. The Master listened, and clearly realised what the Doctor said was true, the Docotr choose to try and help him. They still weren't the best of friends, but their enemy status declined quite a bit from those scenes. When the Doctor pointed the gun towards Rassilon, the Master claimed the Doctor could become the new president (not a good thing exactly, but he gave the Doctor credit and bad advice). When the Doctor held the gun towards the Master for the last time, if you pay attention, the Master looks ready to cry for a few seconds. In the end, the Master could have let Rassilon kill the Doctor, and then he could have killed Rassilon. Or the Master could have hurt/killed the Doctor, and then Rassilon. But no, he told him to "get out of the way" (which the Doctor said to him, too, when he choose to shot the diamond and not the Master). He payed the Doctor back for everything. The Master got revenge (when someone angered gets revenege, they generally return to not being vengful, become who they originally were), choose to save the Doctor, and wanted the Time Lords dead for what they did.

Now, fans are saying, "Oh, the Master will come back working with the Time Lords, and he will be more evil then ever and try to kill the Doctor!" Whether he will ever come back now is debatable (it wasn't left open, he got revenge and bonded with the Doctor, used up the rest of his life force and ceased to exist, and a new writer interested in moving on is taking over, not going back and bringing everyone back again). Even if the Master did return, he wouldn't have any reason to be insane anymore due to no more drumming (theoretically, the druming would have stopped now that the source and everything was learnt and destroyed), he wouldn't be a full-on enemy of the Doctor because of how they helped each other in the end and actually bonded at times, he would just be... not who we knew. He would be a better person. People are in denial that "can't ever turn good because he is the Doctor's worst enemy," but ignore how his last story turned - revenge, redepmtion, and saving the Doctor. Fans need to take off their fanboy glasses and just accept it. Bad guys can redeem themselves. He isn't destined to be bad forever and reutnr over and over again. I believe his story was going from a friend of the Doctor to an enemy due to being driven insane by drumming sent back through time by the Time Lords, his deaths and returns, and then his redemption. If he hadn't of sacraficed himself, he would have become the Doctor's companion in The End of Time after everything that happened. You could see his evil declining. In The End of Time part 1, he is clearly insane and as evil as hell, but compare that to how he is come his last moments in The End of Time part 2 - he really damn well changed a lot.

In general, the closest thing we will get to Time Lords returning are survivors of the Time War, not the whole bloody race and palnet coming back - that happened on the final day of the Time War, and they failed and died. But there are likely survivors out there. No crazy fanfiction about like in this topic title. It reminds of the crazy "Rani Chandra will turn into the Rani, try to kill Sarah Jane Smith and fight the Doctor, and then all the Doctor's enemies will return at once and kidnap all of his companions and the Time Lock will break apart and all the Daleks will come out with the original Cybermen and the Time Lords all at the same time!" Yes, people have said things like that theorising for past finales.

I even heard Rose is The Woman, Rose is River Song; Donna is the Woman, Donna is the Rani, Donna is River Song. One theory said that the Woman is the Doctor's Mother (that is OK because that is who she is intended to be) AND the Rani AND Donna. They said The Woman is the Doctor's mother, the Rani, and Donna all in different incarnations. So basically, the Rani was the Doctor's mtoher, became Donna, and then went to the Time War and became The Woman. Or, Rose, left in a paralle universe, somehow ended up in the Time War, and then became a Time Lady known as The Woman.

Yes, there are some very, very, scary theories out there. Obsurd, really. Heavy fanfiction. Or, I also remember River Song = Rose theories. Ugh, it makes me cry. People have an obsession with theorising that different, unrelated characters are the same person in different incarnations when it comes to Doctor Who. Oh yeah, and I remember a theory that Donna was the Master in disguise... heck, one said she was Davros in disguise. Now people are saying Donna is The Woman. Delton Menace 18:09, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you said but I do think the Time-Lords can come back. Maybe not all of them or planet. I do believe there are groups out their like the Daleks in Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways and Army of Ghosts/Doomsday they where groups so I like to think there are groups. The writers can find anyway to get out of story lines say for example 10 years down the line and there's a new Head Writer who wants the time lords back I'm sure he/she can bring them back but I will agree they ain't coming back for a long time. I also agree about how ridiculous every one thinks everyone is someone else. What happened to people just being themselves. -- Michael Downey 19:03, February 13, 2010 (UTC)