Forum:Yrcanos a Thoros Alphan?

Usually I wouldn't disagree with something as widespread across the wiki as this, but it says on practically every relevant article that Yrcanos is a Thoros Alphan. I can't find any evidence to suggest this in TV: The Trial of a Time Lord, infact much to the contrary. Yrcanos is the warlord of a planet called Krontep and Kiv seems to state that the native species is also called 'Krontep'. At first I thought he could be an Alphan who migrated to Krontep, but we do see Alphans who definately are Alphans, such as Tuza, who don't act anything like Yrcanos, nor do they appear to recognise him. It's a bit of a confusing story, so I might be missing something, but it does seem to me that Yrcanos is a Krontep, not an Alphan. Can anyone tell me why he's listed here as an Alphan or, alternatively, if I'm right an he is a Krontep, inform me of that as well. Thanks! The preceding comment was made by Bigredrabbit (talk to me) 05:50, September 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, you've raised two points. One question is whether he's an Alphan, and the other is whether his species is the "Krontep".


 * I think we can definitively say he is not an Alphan. At a point in the novelisation at least, the Alphans, through their effective "mouthpiece", Tuza, swear allegiance to Yrcanos, and the scene clearly establishes a contrast between Alphans and Yrcanos.

"Tuza internipted the growing dissension. "We do not have anything to lose. At present all we do is hide like vermin. King Yrcanos of the Krontep, we will follow you!" "But will you fight?" "Yes!" The Alphans followed Tuza's lead."

- the novelisation


 * So he's definitely "of the Krontep". And since an Alphan has labelled him this, we know that "the Krontep" are a different group than the Alphans. It's ridiculous that the page for Thoros-Alphan (which the novelisation tells us should be hyphenated, but Bad Therapy does not, by the way) has Yrcanos pictured.  That should be taken down immediately, replaced by an image of Tuza.


 * But are "the Krontep" a different species or merely a different regional group?  After all, if we say, "Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", we're not saying that "United Kingdom" is a species.  We also know from COMIC: The Age of Chaos that he and Peri were able to reproduce, so, genetically, he can't be too far off humans, if he is at all.


 * Point is, I don't think we really know whether "the Krontep" represents an actual species or merely a geographic distinction. It's certainly the case that the DWU has sometimes used a planetary demonym that had no racial implications. For instance, early Dalek annuals call "humans who live on Venus" Venusian. So far as I can see, one possibility is that Alphans and Krontep are humans who happen to live on different planets. Another is that Alphans, Krontop and humans are all nearly genetically identical, but just ever so slightly different as to warrant being called different species. We just don't know based on all the evidence I've been able to find.


 * And another wrinkle: Bad Therapy calls it Kr'on Tep.  Worse, it complicates the nomenclature further, by pointing out that the capital city of the people known as "the Kr'on Tep" from the planet Kr'on Tep in the Seven Systems of Kr'on Tep, is also itself called, you guessed it, Kr'on Tep.


 * 13:14: Sat 01 Oct 2011


 * Okay, I've changed the Thoros Alphan image to Tuza and created a page called Krontep (species) which has the conjecture tag up the top. I think it's safe to assume, if he is of a different species to Peri, that it is called the Krontep. When speaking of his beliefs in reincarnation, Yrcanos speaks of "the Krontep" as the name of his people. I suppose, no, there is nothing to suggest he isn't a human, beyond the fact that he acts differently from the humans Kiv hired on Thoros Beta (or Thoros-Beta, as it's spelt in REF: Doctor Who: The Ultimate Monster Guide) and that he is clearly the supreme leader of Krontep, despite the Earth Empire being active at the time of the story (although it isn't unreasonable to assume some human colonies are independent from the Empire). Overall, I think it is most likely that the Krontep are not descended from Earth. If you think about it, the story is only set a few centuries since space exploration began and it seems odd that a group of colonists would purposely regress themselves to barbarians and seperate themselves from more advanced humans. I also think Crozier's statements about Yrcanos when he is examining him may suggest they belong to different species (Crozier calling Yrcanos' people primitive brutes and such), but then again there is little evidence to suggest Crozier is of Earth origins....The preceding comment was made by Bigredrabbit (talk to me) 00:19, October 2, 2011 (UTC)