Talk:The End of Time (TV story)/Archive 1

For Reference
Sources for everyone are here, I may copy them over later when I have time if no one else does. --Golden Monkey 20:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Two Episodes, One Title
While multiple episodes of the old series often carried a single title, the new series has provided a separate title for each episode. Over at Life, Doctor Who & Combom he posted a rumor that the episode title for 4.17 will be Nightmares Reign and that 4.18 will be The End of Time. [Source]

The End of Time
The End of Time is not necessarily the title, it is just a tag line, the title in unconfirmed. Remember the end of Journey's End - trailer for The Next Doctor, which had a tag line "The Return of the Cybermen", this is exactly the same. Whoniverse93 23:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Since information is now available regarding the specials, we need an article, so giving it a title is as good as any, but it needs some sort of disclaimer that this may not be the official title. I will add one. 23skidoo 19:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Title
DWM 412 has confirmed The End of Time as the title of the final episode, at least. 23skidoo 21:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the title, would anyone object If I link Part 1 to this page? Bigshowbower 07:38, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see the harm, since we don't yet have confirmation what the title of Part 1 is, but we do know it's going to be a "Part 1" so the whole discussion should be kept to one article, at least until we know enough to split things up. 23skidoo 23:52, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

The Brigadier?
It says on the page about the Brigadier that it has been "confirmed" he is appearing in this episode. If this is true then his name needs adding to the characters list.


 * There was no citation/source regarding his appearance so its highly unlikely if it was true and remember to sign your posts as well Bigshowbower 00:40, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

Suggest move to The End of Time
I know that, generally speaking, the first episode/book/comic, etc to use a title gets the undisambiguated version of the title. In this case, The End of Time takes us to the Darksmith Legacy novella which was published just today. However, The End of Time is a major milestone in the franchise, and will be getting a lot of attention. As a result a lot of people will be looking for it, and end up sidetracked by the book article. And lots of people will be linking to "The End of Time" in various articles, without knowing or thinking to add "(TV story)". I foresee a mess. For this reason, I would like to recommend that the two articles switch places, that the TV episode article become the main, undisambiguated The End of Time, while the novella be moved to The End of Time (book) or The End of Time (novel). Thoughts? 23skidoo 13:48, September 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * There shouldn't be any issues with in going ahead with this. (Though probably novel rather than book or novella for the Darksmith novel). --Tangerineduel 15:40, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've created a disambig page at The End of Time which links off to The End of Time (novel) and The End of Time (TV story).

Harriet Jones?
how can she be still alive after being extermionated by the daleks? Sclera1 22:39, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

It could be a flashback of her before she was exterminated. Dalig Ulv Stranden 11:23, October 10, 2009 (GMT)
 * Also, there's been plenty of speculation as to whether she actually died since she didn't die on camera. And besides, if a certain villain can come back after being cremated by the Doctor... 23skidoo 21:51, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also no one knows she died because the Daleks where told to destroy the Subwave network and if Harriet Jones got shot how did the screen go blank at the same time, It can't have because the Daleks obviously destroyed the subwave network and then we don't know what happened to Harriet Jones therefore she could still be alive. Michael Downey 23:49, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * We didn't actually see her die did we, considering the fact that she has had such a big role in Doctor Who if she really was killed I think they would have shown it. That would have been quite an iconic moment.

Source needed for Matt Smith
I just got a note on my talk page from a newbie who is convinced Smith won't appear in End of Time and the regeneration will happen in season 5. Although I'm taking that with a grain of salt, we should have a source cited for Matt Smith appearing in the episode as the Eleventh Doctor. Has this actually been confirmed by anyone, or is it just supposition. If it's just supposition then technically we can't list him yet, because we don't know that he'll actually appear. For all we know it could end the way Stolen Earth ended, mid-regeneration, with Smith appearing on camera for the first time in the following episode. Odds are one of the sources already used for this will suffice, but if one user is of the opinion he doesn't appear, there will be others. 23skidoo 21:51, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

I've said this for the airdate, but David Tennant did an interview for the Graham Norton Show which was broadcast 9th November 2009. Basically when questioned iwhat it was like been on set with Smith, Tennant acted very uneasy, saying more or less, 'If I say I was on set with Matt, it could give alot of the story away, and I'm not aloud to do that.' From here Graham Norton presumed they had been on set together and said 'So we see you and Matt together?' To which Tennant replied 'Not together on screen.' I'm sorry for any misquotes. I've slept since the interview was broadcast. I'm sure the interview will be available either on BBC Iplayer or Youtube. But this seems to strongly suggest that Matt Smith will atleast appear in the End of Time. Sezfaz 10:34, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Ood Sphere
LIzo Mzimba has seen The Waters of Mars and tweeted about the End of Time trailer: " First scene of next special will be shown at Children In Need. Which is 3 minutes of the Doctor arriving on the Ood sphere."

The Gate
Something interesting, perhaps.

There have now been two references to an object or place called 'The Gate'; both suggest that it has some importance to the final story. In ‘The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith (part 2)’, The Trickster mentions that the Gate is waiting for the Doctor. It was also referenced in an interview that Russell T. Davies did with the Radio Times for the release of The Next Doctor. His exact wording was:

“After that, we’ll be heading towards the momentous day when the key to that blue box is passed on, and the 11th Doctor storms into your lives. Just think of the adventures to come. Though, you’ll still have David at the helm of the Tardis this time next year. But oh, what a Christmas that’s going to be. Let’s just say that dark forces are gathering already. The Gate is waiting and life will never be the same again…”

I still have the orginal Radio Times document, if needed. Slartibarto 18:21, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * The gate refers to death and death refers to regeneration and regeneration refers to Time Lords and Time Lords refer to Daleks and the Daleks refer to the Doctor and the Doctor brings with him the gate. Or regeneration can refer to Capt. Jack, but that's off subject. Lordandmaster 08:48, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

As of the 10th of November, there has been a third reference. In another Radio Times interview (this time for the release of 'The Waters of Mars') Russell T Davies said: "The Master's return is just the start of our biggest, most heart-breaking story yet. The Immortality Gate is waiting." Slartibarto 16:35, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Should it be noted...
...that this is probaly another children of time episode? I hated the previous one! Lordandmaster 16:36, November 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * No because this is a Doctor Who episode not a Torchwood episode, and keep those comments to the forum as well. Bigshowbower 09:22, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't mean children of earth, I said children of time! Time is what Caan used to descibe the Doctor's companians! Lordandmaster 20:23, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * No we do not know what role the companions will play in the story, and again keep it the forums. Bigshowbower 02:59, November 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay. But I thought that the idea was done already, as all the new series companians meeting up. So I thought it was worth noting, but if you tell me not to then I won't. However if the Master even mutters children of time, it will be up there in a flash. Lordandmaster 09:26, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I came off as a bit rude in those posts Im sorry, but yes you should if he does mutter Children of Time. And thank you for thinking I was an admin, I wish I were though, Oh just remeber to sign your posts as well. Bigshowbower 10:33, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay and thanks. Lordandmaster 09:26, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Airdate
It says it will air on the 1st of Jan how do we know this I think it is just speculation. --Catkind121 15:54, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

On November 9th on the Graham Norton Show, Tennant confirmed that part 1 would be shown on Christmas day, and confirmed to the best of his knowledge that part 2 will be broadcast very early in 2010, he even specifically mentions New Years Day. Sezfaz 10:18, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

NEW PAGE
It has been confirmed that the end of time is part one and part two has a title of 6 words so therefore we should now make two different pages. Michael Downey 17:11, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

And call it what?. We shouldnt make two different pages just yet, we should wait until we know what it will be called. I dont see why we have to jump the gun, when we can be preparing for the mass edits of the Waters of Mars page. Bigshowbower 06:03, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

True but little things need editing to pin point out that their going to be called different titles. Michael Downey 10:37, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * As long as we're not editing the pages and pointing towards a redundant title as that will probably make life somewhat more complicated having to find all the edits that have been changed to link (or not link) away from The End of Time or whatever. --Tangerineduel 13:10, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Filming Locations
Kardomah Cafe Swansea and Tredegar House are confirmed- along with Nant Fawr Road where Donna's house is- anybody know anymore?


 * Well I know they were filming in Cardiff city centre - thats the bit on the trailer with the explosion and the doctor falling over! - and Barry Docks. Saxon 3 19:34, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also St.Augustine's church in penarth, Caerphilly castle, Tiger Tiger bar in cardiff (With John Barrowman outside as Jack Harkness), Marshfield church (donna's new wedding), The Powell estate (rose), a bank, Penarth (outside sarah janes house - not sarah jane adventures - with sjs and luke). Saxon 3 20:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Where it says the voiceover for the trailer will be provided by a famous Hollywood actor, listening to the trailer again it sounds to me very much like Brian Cox (Troy and X-Men amongst others).

Title confirmed!
Here! The old style of naming is back! The End of Time, Part One and presumably The End of Time, Part Two. --Golden Monkey 12:43, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I've updated the article accordingly. 23skidoo 13:39, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Airdate, continued
We can't say Jan. 1 for Part 2 as it has not been announced by the BBC. It doesn't matter what individuals have said on chat shows. RTD at one point said Waters of Mars would air at Christmas- and in fact the special itself includes references to the holiday, suggesting this was the original plan. For all we know Part 2 could just as easily air on Boxing Day in the UK. In fact considering the success of Sarah Jane on consecutive nights (not to mention Torchwood Children of Earth), I believe this scenario to be more likely than a New Years Day (or Eve) broadcast. We'll know within a few weeks, but for now we can't put a date for Part 2. 23skidoo 14:52, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

on drwhoonline.co.uk it states that The End of Time Part 2 is on 1st January 2010 (CONFIRMED!!) Shall we edit it?
 * Yes, as we can cite that website as the source. The same info can be added to Wikipedia as well. Digifiend 19:15, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be so hasty, as several blogs are saying Dec. 31. DrWhoOnline can NOT be used as a source because it is a commercial website - it's a shop, for heaven's sake. Wikipedia will reject it outright for that reason alone. We do know it'll be after Dec. 29 as that's the date of the radio special promoting it. But it could still be Dec. 31 or Jan. 1 and until the BBC (not anyone else) announces it, we cannot confirm anything. There's a blog (I had the link but lost it) saying the BBC will announce Dec. 31 as the airdate this week. I'll believe it when I see it, though I would expect the official airdate confirmation for Parts 1 and 2 will come very soon (yes, Part 1 hasn't been officially confirmed, either, but there's enough BBC sources stating "Christmas" to suggest it'll actually air Dec. 25, not Christmas Eve or Boxing Day, as well as precedent, so we're safe giving Dec. 25 as the airdate for Part 1). 23skidoo 22:46, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Then why did somebody add the date anyway? 94.72.196.209 01:36, December 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * The airdate was confirmed last week on Digital Spy and by the BBC.Saxon 3 17:05, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the BBC just confirmed the airdates for both parts today (1st December). The Christmas airdate was never in doubt, but there were websites indicating a 31 December broadcast was going to be announced for part 2, so now they eat crow. Next up (hopefully soon) will be confirmed airdates for the US (aside from part 1), plus Canada and elsewhere. 23skidoo 19:03, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Whoniverse Timeline: The End of Time, Christmas 2009?
First The Waters of Mars says the Dalek invasion happened in 2008, and therefore in the year it aired; I shrugged that off as a typo, until... The End of Time is set on Christmas 2009, the year it airs (once again). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it the Whoniverse not always a year ahead of us when it comes to modern-day Earth stories?

Adding to this: Children of Earth was also seen to be set in the same year as it aired, not a year ahead. This would all mean Planet of the Dead was Easter 2009, which would put the Dalek invasion in 2008 (as seen in the Waters of Mars), and mean all of Torchwood series 2 happened in 2008 and Doctor Who series 4 would also have happened in 2008. Now it all adds up to the only 2009 stories being Planet of the Dead (April), Children of Earth (September), Forever Autum (October), and The End of Time (Christmas 2009). Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 would most likely come between Planet of the Dead and Children of Earth, and in 2009 between April and September. I think the show is basically screaming out that the Whoniverse timeline is back in sync with ours. Apparantly, the producers may have stated so themselves-- they're showing it, the least. Delton Menace 04:52, November 25, 2009 (UCT)

I've been thinking about this, and one solution to this is that maybe the series was set to start in 2004 in the Whoniverse? That would be one solution. What do you all think of this idea? Adlerj

Didn't Series 3 only happen over about a week on Earth - from Smith and Jones to The Sound of Drums? But The Runaway Bride is set at Christmas so....It's a mess!

I don't understand either I thought that all the stories where a year ahead of themselves due to the Doctor bringing Rose back a year later in the series 1 episode Aliens of London. So I thought Season 4's stories where set in 2009 if they where set in present day. Michael Downey 17:44, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Isn't there posters and/or calanders scattered through random places and locations in Torchwood series 2 that seem to say it is 2008- bearing in mind, Torhcwood series 2 takes place some months before Doctor Who series 4 finale, making it - yet again - take place in 2008? Everything we're shown says the Whoniverse is in sync with ours. I'm going to go with what Adler said and assume the beginging of series 1 was set a year behind us when it aried (making it 2004), and then the year skip caused it to be set in sync with us.

I mean, if the End of Time is really Christmas 2009, we can't class Planet of the Dead as April 2010, but April 2009, and then that puts the Dalek invasion in mid-2008, which is exactly where the Waters of Mars says it takes place: 2008. Torchwood series 2 - base don calanders - furhter confirms that it has to be in 2008, and by default the rest of present day earth stories in series 4 of Doctor Who. Sarah Jane Advetnures series 2 should be later 2008 following the Dalek Invasion, and then Planet of the Dead, then Sarah Jane series 3 between April and September 2009 (under personal assumtion), and then Chilren of Earth in September 2009, following by the End oif Time in Christmas 2009.

We can't really deny that it's in sync with ours anymore because there is too much on-screen evidence, and the fact that Children of Earth also takes place in the year it aired. Delton Menace 18:04, November 2th, 2009 (UCT)

But those are all writers mistakes, and appernetly in the End of Timne part 2 the doc travels to 2004 new year in March 2005 Rose is set. When New Year comes The Doctor asks Rose what year it is she says it is 2005 he picks her up up in march 2005 then goes to march 2006 in aliens of London. So looks like this could be like the UNIT dating crisis. --Catkind121 21:28, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

It is a mess, it's all that stupid Aliens of London thing where he brings her home a year later and the poster says she went missing in March 2005, and the 2008 Dalek invasion taking place after three christmas's. If it wasnt for the christmas specials all being set in present day one after the other it would be fine and dandy. 81.132.89.87 16:17, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Right, heres what the production team supposedly stated (don't quote me on this) But Aliens of London was a year ahead, but series 3 took place over just a few days so the whoinverse is in synch with ours, capische? Excalibur-117 18:44, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

So series 1 was generally in 2005, then skipped to 2006, causing series 2 to be 2007 and series 3 to be 2008.. Series 3 was around May 2008 due to this. But then then Voyage of the Damned jumped to Christmas 2008, causing series 4 to happen in 2009. With series 4 happening in 2009, the Easter specail, which referened the series 4 finale, would be in 2010. Then the Waters of Mars said the Dalek Invasion happened in 2008... Must be a typos! Oh wait- the End of Time, Christmas 2009, causing the Eatser special to be Easter 2009, and then causing the Dalek Invasion and in turn series 4 to happen in 2008, which was also shown in the previous special. This pushes the specials to be 2009, series 4 to be 2008, series 3 to be 2007, series 2 to be 2006, and series 1 to be 2005, and before th Aliens of London, 2004. However, the End of Time also reveals that series 1 had to take place begining in 2005, not 2004.

Huge problem: leaked quotes from a scene where the Doctor travels back to before he meets Rose seems to reveal that Rose met the Ninth Doctor following Chrismtas 2005, causing series 1 beging to be 2006, series 1 later to be 2007, series 2 to be 2008, series 3 to be 2009, series 4 to be 2010, and the specaisl to be 2011.

If that leaed quote is true, not only has the End of Time shoved the Whoniverse timeline back one year, but it has also shoved the Whoniverse time FORWARD two years ahead of us. What the hell have the producers done? Put the whoniverse timeline a year ahead of us, then put it back in sync with us, and then put it toward years ahead us. Delton Menace

At the moment, we know Series 4 was 2009, and all the 3rd Series Sarah Jane Adventures are apparently set in 2010, along with Torchwood:Children of Earth so if the Doctor's doing it logically it SHOULD be set in 2010-Excalibur-117 19:30, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

wait, thats wrong hold on let's see how the other Xmas Specials worked out: Christmas Invasion was 2006, Runaway Bride was 2007 Voyage of the Damned would then be 2008 and End of Time should then be 2009


 * See I'm confused because the battle of canary wharf took place in July 2006 so that means that half of series 1 and 2 took place in 2006 which means the first and second Christmas special took place the same Christmas but we know didn't because the Doctor asks Donna of the events of the previous Christmas so I have identified the where the typo has occurred because I know for a fact that the doctor catches up on time and series 3 happens in 2007 which means the dalek invasion happened in 2008. Right so I think I have worked it out with a previous quote from a writer. Series 1 begins in 2005 and until Aliens of London then goes to 2006. 1st Christmas special date in unknown. Series 2 in 2006, 2nd Christmas special in 2006. Series 3 and 3rd Christmas special in 2007. Series 4 and 4th Christmas Special in 2008 (Dalek Invasion 2008). Planet of the dead 2009 and the end of time set at Christmas 2009. So the typo is clearly the first 2 Christmas specials. Hope This Helps. Michael Downey 22:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Hows about we just wait for the episode to air, then go from there? we all know that if we start trying to do this without knowing whats actually gonna happen then its gonna go sideway- Excalibur-117 23:01, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Well, the Christmas special will air in less than a month now, so the timeline suspence (for us who care about the timeline deeply) is building. I mean, when the episode airs, and a big 'HAPPY CHRISTMAS' sign directly states that it is Christmas 2009 - or Wilf or some character says it is 2009, ect. - can we really ignore that? That indeed puts the Easter special April 2009, and in turn the Dalek invasion is indeed 2008 (which has already been shown in the Waters of Mars). We will need to put the timeline back a year (for the modern day earth stories in the revived series, Torchwood, and the Sarah Jane Adventures). But when that is done, what do we make of the Aliens of London/World War Three and how it put everything forward a year? There has to be an explanation. I don't understand this whole series-three-put-everything-back talk, as the Aliens of London caused series 3 to be 2008 by default, and then Voyage the Damned, coming after, ended up being Christmas 2008, causing series 4 to be 2009. The Next Doctor would have been Christmas 2009 if it wasn't in the past, so it is assumed Earth had a normal Christmas that year, but the End of Time says otherwise.

But the important thing is, is there an official source that says when the End of Time skaes place? Delton Menace 21:12, November 28, 2009(UCT)

At the moment, I don't think there is. And we've also got to remember that somes of it's gonna be set on the Ood Sphere, 100 years after Planet of the Ood which if my memory and maths are any decent should make it about 4226.-Excalibur-117 13:29, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Taking in the fact that, as I looked through the Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 and the setting for the first half of the series said 2010, whereas the second half of the series said 2009 (talk about backwards storytelling, or typos), there is obviousaly a large (well, not that large) confusion on TARDIS wiki about timeline setting, with some saying 2009 and others saying 2010. I would prefer that the timeline is indeed in sync to make life in Who easier, and because the large gap that would be between April 2009 and Sepember 2009 would make room for the Sarah Jane Adventures series 3, while explaing Sarah Jane's lack of involvment or even knowledge of the 456 invasion suring the third series (it was taking place in London, and Sarah Jane has had many missions where she come into some form of contact with younger children, you'd think there would be a refernece by her about possesed children). I personally think the timeline looks much cleaner for 2009 that way, so I am hoping the End of Time's setting is true.

I'm thinking, if it is and 2009 is the specials era: April, Planet of the Dead happens; post-April and pre-September, Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 happens; September, TorchwoodL Children of Earth happens; December, the End of Time happens. Nice, clean timeline.

I always thought that Jack's dissapearance in September 2009 and reappearance in early 2010 would indicate that his invovlment in the finale specials took place after he left Gwen and Rhys in September 2009 and before he went back to them in 2010. I mean, what DID he do in that time span? I reckon his involvemtn in the End of Time is the answer, and that was Russel T. Davies (since he wrote both) putting it together like a jigsaw puzzle. Delton Menace

You guys do realize the Doctor is a time traveller, do you? For all we know, he could have spent any year he wanted twice. For example, we don't know how much time passes between series. What we know, though, is that time does not necessarily work in the "right" order for him, as he himself suggests in Blink. 90.134.63.105 16:57, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Lets not forget though that in Planet of the Dead a character refers to when the planets moved. I thinl all storyies a year a head of there time.

Yes, well considering that journeys end occured june or from that point, you would have thought that they remember it in easter the next year, not everyone has the memory of a goldifsh.Saxon 3 17:43, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

I think The End of Time should be Christmas 2010... Putting it in 2009 will set it BEFORE Planet of the Dead; that doesn't make sense. To think this all could have been averted if that little '5' of Rose's MISSING poster was changed to a '4'. Bttsstewart 00:28, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

There is no source for the 2009 date. I removed it but someone put it back. I decided to just leave it because articles are usually full of unsourced speculation (like Berserkers in Waters of Mars) before the episode in question airs, and then there's a crackdown. About Jack, I'm betting his appearance in The End of Time will be set after he's returned to Earth and experienced Series 4, despite Series 4 not having been aired yet, but who knows? The writers are aware of the one-year skip thing, though they sometimes forget, the skip is backed up by statements of the year in novels and Martha's myspace blog. Though, as said above, it is possible for The End of Time to be set before Planet of the Dead because of time travel. But there's no source. -- Noneofyourbusiness 03:52, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

But it The End of Time was set before Planet of the Dead (time travel-wise), there would be errors, errors, errors: Joshuha Naismith is obvious in bsuiness during the events of Planet of the Dead, but no doubt The End of Time will see his downfall, arrested, killed, whatever happens to him. But he is doing well and in business during planet of the Dead. Planet of the Dead said something about the recsission (a 2009 thing, no less!), and I keep hearing that a character in The End of Time will announce the end of the recsission. In Planet of the Dead, the rescission is going on (this is a 2009 event, too), and it presumably ends at Christmas 2009 in The End of Time. The fact that the rescission is even mentioned in both episodes really gives them both 20009 placments. The event was not around in, 2008, I believe, and series 4 never mentioned it (which would indicate a 2008 placment). Then there was the article in The Waters of Mars: 2008 Dalek Invasion of Earth. which would make Planet of the Dead April 2009 and The End of Time, then Children of Earth September 2009, and then The End of Time Christmas 2009 (explaining the mention of the rescission, too). It would also explain why Jack in on Earth and not with Torchwood during The End of Time - he left them in September 2009 and returned March 2010, explaining that his involvement in the specials takes place during his dissapearance from Torchwood and before he returned to Gwen and Rhys to leave Earth. Delton Menace 10:20, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Interesting Naismith reference in Planet of the Dead. That indicates The End of Time must be Christmas 2010 (which is what I thought) unless he survives it or his company is still in business under someone else. The timing of the recession doesn't really matter because the Whoniverse isn't our universe - we didn't have Christmas invasions, either. "2008 Dalek Invasion" was a mistake. It also conflicts with Adelaide's May 1999 birthdate given in Waters of Mars, which would have made her nine during the invasion if it was 2008. She was stated to be ten during it, just as she would be in 2009. "2008" was just a production error. The novel Beautiful Chaos is clear about Donna's time being 2009 in Doctor Who Series 4. Martha's myspace blog is clear about her time being 2008 in Series 3 (with having travelled to 2007 in Blink and the prologue of Human Nature, and Martha wondering if that's because it's when the Doctor last saw Rose). Rose states that it's the beginning of 2005 when the Doctor meets her at the end of The End of Time, before she meets the Ninth Doctor. That bit of filming has been recorded. So it's clear where the bulk of the evidence lies. The occasional slip is because the writers' memories aren't perfect. If they're wise, they'll set two upcoming series in the same year and spare themselves the headache in the future. -- Noneofyourbusiness 15:27, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

With what I have seen happening in The End of Time, none of it will survive. Desturction from left to right. One instance involves an explosion in his mansion. The picture for The End of Time looks as if London has been completely destroyed: house debrise as far as the eye can see, a car tire among the rubble, fire in the background. The summary mentions something about the wastlands of London, and the picture shows complete destruction. If London is destroyed, that completely stops Planet of the Dead happening after The End of Time (the events of that episode can't just be cancaled out because then it erases Carmen's prophecy, which is important for The End of Time). Plus, if Planet of the Dead is after The End of Time, the the entire of Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3 is, too (despite featuring the Tenth Doctor). The events of the End of Time were foreshadowed in Planet of the Dead and the Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith, so why would they be set after the events? For a start, "it is returning through the dark". By The End of Time, it has already returned thought the dark, but half a year later, it is is suddenly "reutnring" when it already returned? Plus, there are some huge events that will happen in The End of Time that should leave a mark on the human face for years to come. Planet of the Dead, a few months later, makes absolutely no mention of it, but references the series 4 finale. How odd, really. I mean, a trap closing around the Earth and all of this destrucdtion going off isn't going to be forgeten by April. Let's face it: Planet of the Dead cannot be after The End of Time, there is so much confusion. And like I said, the rescission is still happening in Planet of the Dead, but apparantly it's finished in The End of Time by December.

Anyway, should we change it to 'Christmas 2010' for The End of Time? The current date is causing huge confusion for people because that sets it before Planet of the Dea dna d Sarah Jane Advetnures series 3. And this says it all: Luke meets the Doctor for the first time in the Wedding of Sarah Jane, which is set after Planet of the Dead, which you are saying could be set after The End of Time... problem is, Luke and the Doctor are seen on-screen together in The End of Time. Therefore, it has to be after they met in SJA series 3, which places it after Planet of the Dead (Mona's Lisa's Revenge refenreces Planet of the Dead). Delton Menace 16:12, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

I know this might sound ignorant but where does it state that planet of the dead takes place in 2010? and End of time airs tomorrow so can't we just leave it till then? Excalibur-117 14:55, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Beautiful Chaos (which has been vaugely referneced in The End of Time, giving the nice little 'canon' stamp) confirmed that modern day Earth stories in sereis 4 Doctor Who took place in 2009, and the finale took place around June 2009. That would mean that Planet of the Dead took place before the Stolen Earth/Journey's End, but them events are referneced in Planet of the Dead, placing it the next year... in 2010. Series 3 Sarah Jane Advetnures by fault occurs in 2010 before of this. Luke meets the Doctor for the first time in series 3 (set in 2010), which stops The End of Time taking place in 2009- Luke meets the Doctor again in The End of Time, placing it after the Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith (Earth timelime-wise), and by fault placing it after Planet of the Dead. Therefore, The End of Time HAS to be 2010, it simply cannot happen before SJA series 3, and by fault Planet of the Dead (both set in 2010). Delton Menace 16:40, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

It seems that the only way around this is to assume that Rose WAS set in 2004 and the poster seen in Aliens of London was a typo (made by Jackie, lol). Thats the only way to solve it, what a mess!81.131.107.180 23:48, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

The End of Time being set in 2010 stops all of this time problem. Besides, it is made clear in the end of Time that Rose met the Ninth Doctor in 2005. He goes back in time to shortly before he met her, and apparantly the date is January 2005, making the year skip be 2006 (half of series 1), series 2 be 2007, series 3 be 2008, series 4 be 2009, and Planet of the Dead and The End of Time and SJA series 3 be 2010. And as I said, the Doctor meets Luke for a second time in The End of Time, so placing it in 2009 would place the Wedding of Sarah Jane in 2009, and that would make Plabet of the Dead bhe 2009, which would make it take place before the series 4 finale of Doctor Who. xD

One thing: the End of Time being 2010 = nice and squeaky clean timeline, no huge errors. :) Delton Menace 00:39, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Queenie
Just readin the reference in regards to QE1 and her "supposed" relations with te Doctor, firstly, someone may want to mention that this could be the reason she wanted him dead in "The Shakespeare Code" and secondly, i believe that hte nickname he was referring to, since the way he phrase the sentence to ood sigma, was in fact "good queen elizabeth" not "virgin queen"

It's pretty obvious he did mean 'the virgin queen' - as he didn't say it - that's the joke! If they got married and slept together then she could no longer have that nickname...

The Doctor said "good queen bess" when he was talkiing about her, it refers to "virgin queen" as he would not have said "good queen bess" otherwise.Saxon 3 17:34, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Lucy Saxon, Ood Sigma, and the Beast
She is down in the 'aliens and enemies' for the End of Time, but how do we know she's an enemy, espcailly after she turned against the Master at the end of Last of the Time Lords? Many people overlook that. She, in a sense, turned good. She helped the Doctor defeat the Master, and then shot him. This seems to contradict people assuming she is an enemy in the End of Time before they even see it. I personally highly doubt she will be an enemy, but more, just, there. Heck, I reckon she sacrafice herself to help the Doctor in the end... Davies said it's a sad story for Lucy in an interview. Very sad story for her. in the End of Time.

Sure, we know the Master is an alien and enemy in the episode, so it's fine putting that down. But we don't know about Lucy, and it is very debatable based on her previous actions whether she will be an enemyat all. Currently known is that she was sent to prison and there is an explosion, the prison is called Broadfell. She's more a human criminal than anything, but should we expect her as an enemy of the Doctor in the finale?

As for Ood Sigma, who might be possesing him? I bet my money it's the Beast, and he will probably be the one exelerating the Ood species and giving them their advanced psychic abilities. In fact, I believe the Beast is the true bad guy in the finale, and the one who has cast a shadow over creation, possesed Ood Sigma, excelerated the Ood, and he may be the 'vast thing stirring in the dark'. He did call himself the darkness, after all, mentioned war, and say he was beyond time itself. Sound familair? Delton Menace 20:21 November 30, 2009 (UCT)

See Lucy could be an enemy. I have a theory that the reason she shot him was part of the plan. I reckon the Master told Lucy to kill him so he wouldn't regenerate if he ever lost or got beat by the Doctor. Then the Master will store his self somehow in his ring so then someone can bring him back secretly. That's my theory so Lucy could be helping him. Michael Downey 00:28, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

It was noted in the Last of the Time Lords commentery that the Master was physically abusing Lucy, and that fueld her desire to kill him for what he did to her. In the Last of the Time Lords, she has a faded black eye, too. And she looks emotionally abused, at that. If you exaimine her behaviour, you can see her questioning whether or not to help the Doctor. When everyone starts chanting, she simply joins them; when she shot him, you could see the relief in her. All evidence and even commententery say she shot him simply because her activly abused her. She wouldn't want him to come back, seeing as she wanted him dead badly. Therefore, that makes it unlikely she will even be an enemy in the End of Time.Delton Menace 07:25, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunatley im in doubt that Lucy will even have a chance to be a villain, she is seen witnessing the master's ressurection and if they didnt plan to kill him if things went badly, the masters not going to let her off easily is he, and come to think of it the only time we have seen lucy on the trailers is while she is in prison. R.T.D has stated that it is a sad story for lucy, come to think of it her name is in the cast list for part 2. It could be that the master might find it more fun to keep her alive, torture her, there has been an explosion at her prison. Hmmm, maybe she dies helping the doctor...again. What would you do if you were the master, youve just been ressurected and the wife that killed you is there at your feet?Saxon 3 17:35, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Regeneration
I've been thinking, from what I know, for all but two past regenerations there has been a companion(s) there with him at the time. Does anyone think that someone will be there for him this time? Adlerj

That sort of thing should be in the forums. --Bigshowbower 10:49, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

i think that the eleventh doctor (matt smith)will be the last as you remember that the timelords have 12 regenerations and in Journeys End the doctor regenerated  from his hand but that still counts as regeneration

They don't have twelve regenerationsm they have 13, besides the Master is only supposed to 13 regenerations but he still keeps coming back, The Doctor will probably regain another thirteen regenerations by some sort of power source - possibly the heart of the tardis.


 * Time Lords have 12 regenerations, i.e. they can regenerate 12 times. As birth doesn't count as regeneration, they can have up to 13 different personas. Tardis1963 23:05, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Ood and Time
The Ood became highly advanced in just 100 years and the Doc said it was way too quick. The writers said they wanted to bring back the time lords. Could it be possible that the Ood might somehow become the time lords?

No, the Ood are simply the Ood. The Immortality gate is the key to the time lords return, what is a gate for? coming through and goinf through. The door to the other side. Except Naismith doesnt realise what the master wants to use it for. Tthe time lords are back but at what cost. Wilf and donna unfortunately. Videos from filming witness the characters (sylvia mainly) SCREAMING ABOUT a great ball of fire in the sky, now Gallifrey could be mistaken for just that, what if when Gallifrey enters the earths atmosphere it causes powerful sound waves to ensue, causing the destruction of much of the planet, including London, wich would explain why London is a wasteland.Saxon 3 17:40, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Miss Trefusis
I'm not in the UK and have been a bit out of touch on some of the new developments, but could the Miss Trefusis mentioned in this episode be the same person as Cessair of Diplos? (After all, Miss Trefusis was one of her names...) 98.71.128.214 21:43, December 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Not the same person, as it was Mrs Trefusis in The Stones of Blood, not Miss. Probably just a reference/homage, the common inspiration for the name probably being Violet Trefusis. Maccy69 00:12, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Elizabeth I
The speculation regarding what the Doctor meant in his reference to Elizabeth I was unacceptable so I removed it. Unless there's a further reference to her in the broadcast or a later episode, we can't state more than the facts. Neither the "Virgin Queen" or "Good Queen Bess" speculation is possible or feasible at this point. 23skidoo 17:26, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

It is not too much speculation to assume that the doctor was reffering to "Virgin Queen." The Doctor did say that he married her, and she tried to have him executed in The Shakespeare Code. Although not directly stated, it was implied that he meant "Virgin Queen." Icecreamdif 23:47, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Page protection?
Should we carry the semi-protect (no IP edits) through to January or it can expire on the 25th December? --Tangerineduel 14:20, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Carry it through to January. It has been releaved in DWM 416 that the cliffhanger will be 'very big' at then end of part One, so over the week till Part Two, the page could get filled with lots of rumours about what will happen in Part Two.JM 17:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

More Info
Found this on io9 Someone posting over at the IMDB forums claims to have seen "The End Of Time Part 1," and says Bernard Cribbins and the Doctor travel to "the vast wastelands of London" as well as visiting the Time War. Wilf wants to save his granddaughter, Donna, who's once again struggling with her own mind. The villains are Joshua Naismith and his wife, who resurrect the Master as part of a plan to bring back the Time Lords, but this is just part of a larger scheme. At the end of the first part, the Time Lords materialize through the Immortality Gate and arrest the Master. And meanwhile, Donna's eyes are on fire. Take of all this with an immense grain of salt. [Gallifrey Base]

Meanwhile, Russell T. Davies explains more about what's going on in this episode:

The Doctor went through hell, on Mars. I think its important to note the angry, vengeful Doctor glimpsed in that climax is gone-that was the point of Adelaide's death; she saved the future, and saved the Doctor from himself. He was brought back to his senses. And as you've seen from the Children in Need clip, a lot of the old, chipper Doctor has been restored. Which is only right and proper, because that's the Doctor we want to see in his final story - the classic hero, the good man, the lovely funny, skinny fellow in the suit and trainers... and as ever, there's a melancholy beneath the smile - he's still aware that he's facing the end of his song, and the ominous four knocks. He can't know whether this means regeneration or actual death - and neither can you, cos we might have some tricks up our sleeves!

And he adds, in reference to the Master:

In 'The Sound of Drums" and 'Last of the Time Lords', he mirrored the Doctor by being powerful, suave and megalomaniac. Now, it's a new opposite - lost and raw and savage. Something's gone very wrong with his return - you'll have to watch to find out what! - but that x-ray effect see in the trailer, where he's all skull and bones, is the just the start of the trouble....imagine all the pent up forces of a Time Lord body - artron energy, regeneration energy, all the stuff - ripping open and broken loose. A dying timelord is a terrifying thing! So with the Master dying, the Doctor's end approaching, and both determined to survive, they're hurtling along an almighty collision course. And that's just part one!

Also, Minnie Hooper is helping Wilf track the Doctor down because people have had bad dreams, and Wilf is hiding out at a church. And there's a mystery involving a silver cloak, which Wilf knows about. And the Doctor gets strapped down to a table at one point.

Meanwhile, RTD tells Time Out Magazine that this episode includes the homeless in London getting burgers from a charity van, and Donna's middle-class family sitting down for turkey dinner, and then the obscenely rich Naismith family, with a mansion and servants. And then of course there are monsters and a chase, and all of these elements are leading in one directionSaxon 3 20:49, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Spilt the Cast list?
After both part hav been broadcast should the cast lis be split up into Both Parts, Part One and Part Two? I think this would help clean up the mess i think the cast list is in and it will help it look better, but no other episodes that carry the same title do this. JM 17:13, December 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * We did not do that for classic series stories. --Catkind121 12:17, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Besides, if you really want to, we can just put part 2 only in brackets after thier name, although i don't really see the point, as it's one episode in 2 parts. Excalibur-117 15:45, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Are the Time Lords returning?
are the time lords returning? in the end of time christmas special i think that the time lords are returning because in the children in need special for doctor who the elder odd says that it is returning he is returning which we know is the master and they are returning which it could mean the time lords and other information i know is that in the cast list (not there real names) THE GOVERNER,THE NARRATOR,THE WOMAN,TEENAGER, THE SECOND,THE PARTIASN,THE VISONARY and my other speculation is that it says that timmothy dalton will be starring as the TIME LORD COUNCIL LEADER it looks like the time lords will come from the immortality gate and arrest the master and sentence him -- (Unsigned comment by The mysterious)

Probably, but they will be new Time Lords that haven't been featured before. There will be at least 8 of them as a whole in the finale, three of which are the Doctor, the Master, and the Narrator (Timothy Dalton, voice heard in ther first End of Time trailer... narrating it). Delton Menace 06:40, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Don't put them down as Time Lords yet, it's not uncommon for credited actors with small roles to simple be given a title as opposed to a proper name.Excalibur-117 17:46, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, I stand corrected. Excalibur-117 12:33, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Roger Bailey
I have noticed upon the cast list that it says Roger Bailey will be playing the character of a timelord/council leader but on his personal website it says he's playing a character called Mr Fetch. http://www.rogerbailey.co.uk/CurriculumVitae.html

What shall we do? / Any suggestions? Michael Downey 21:43, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Where did the information that he is plating a Time Lord/Council Leader come from? I would believe what his personal website says as opposed to any other source. Delton Menace 21:13, December 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Roger Bailey's CV is not talking about The End of Time. He played a character called Mr Fetch in The Next Doctor. He is still playing a Time Lord in The End of Time. Tardis1963 23:02, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The Sound of Drums
Extract from the new EOT Trailer - "None of them of them survived(the doctor), Never dying, the never ending drums, can't you hear it? The noise, the drum beat, louder than ever before(the master).Saxon 3 22:08, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

It will be interesting, finding out what the sound of drums is and what it means. Delton Menace 22:55, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The sound of drums is the sound of something coming through the dark like a signal like bad wolf--The mysterious 18:00, December 19, 2009 (UTC)by the mysterious

The Ood
Who do you think is controlling the Ood the Beast-original controller of the Ood and most scariest of all Davros and the Daleks-it could be davros he never may have died Time lords-maybe trying to contact the doctor to warn him from the master Trickster(Sarah Jane adventures)-maybe the Trickster, alone, frequently manifested on Earth, making bargains with the beast alter history in his attempts to draw power from the chaos he creates and thus enter the world in his full power. --By the Mysterious --The mysterious 13:43, December 19, 2009 (UTC)the mysterious

The Ood aren't being controled, it appears. The Ood Elder's eyes turn red when he warns the Doctorof impending doom and time bleeding, as reaveled in two trailers. It the Ood do come under possesion, it will most likely be the Beast. The Daleks aren't returning until series 5, and they aren't capable or possesing. Time Lords aren't capable of posessing, to my knowledge. The Trickester isn't capable of possesion, either.

Really, think, please. Out of all, it the Ood really are being posessed again, it'll probably be the Beast, considering how the Doctor said 'something' was excelerating their species psyic abilities. Delton Menace 15:15, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Miranda Richardson has been credited to play President Romana in the End of Time part 2. Not sure how this all fits into the finale but here is a clear link of Miranda Richardson's credentials:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001669/

Sorry but I think we don't except that website as definitive proof. Excalibur-117 17:47, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Harriet Jones
Not only is IMDb nothing close to a reliable source, but The End of Time isn't even listed in Penelope Wilton's filmography. Unless someone can find something reputable stating that she is in it, her listing should be removed. 82.3.100.89 18:51, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

They said Sharron Duncan Brewster was going to play the Rani in the Waters of Mars, too. Delton Menace 20:52, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Judoon
Where or when does it day that the Judoon are in the End of Time. anyone?--Catkind121 11:50, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

in the cast list dumbo--The mysterious 19:41, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

There is no reference to support that the Judoon are in The End of Time, but there are apparently listed in Radio Times, and its is also on Wikipedia, with a reference to Radio Times. This should be checked and if they are appearing, put a reference on it, and if not deleted. Mini-mitch 19:48, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

The Mysterious I am not a dumbo I just could not find a reference. Please be civil.--Catkind121 12:16, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

No reference? Then should someone check Radio Times or should it be deleted? Mini-mitch 18:10, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

The mysterious lady
Who do you think is the red nailed woman who picked up the masters ring ?

Lucy Saxon cheif suspect Nerys (Donna's freind) Bev (jackie's freind) Harriet jones Jackie Tyler Rose tyler Just remember it could be any mysterious female hands what was seen to take his discarded ring at the end series 3. Here we finally get to see whose hand that was – and it’s no one you were expecting!

--The mysterious 19:39, December 21, 2009 (UTC)by the mysterious

The mysterious is keeping a mysterious mystery from us, is he? I hope that's something Russel T. Davies said about it being someone unexpected. All I know is that it is of someone older (or appears older) than Lucy Saxon, as he said s himself in an interview. Not her. :)

I reckon it is Miss Trefusis, the woman who says 'he returns' in the trailer. Delton Menace 20:14, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

It is Miss Trefusis, she was one of Saxon's minions. It said on digital spy that it was one of saxons minions, it would explain how she knew about the ring and the master. Unfortunately The Master's ressurection did not go according to plan and Saxon punished his minions. Thus the end of her. Possibly last bit is false..

It still could be any of his minions, maybe someone we haven't seen yet. Interviews seem to talk about who it is as being someone really unexpected, like someone we have seen before. With plot twists, anyone could be working for him. Delton Menace 19:05, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

First 20 minutes of Part 1
Found this on virgin media: Virgin Media has posted a "Viewmaster" type slide show of the first 20 minutes or so of "The End Of Time Part 1." The pictures are mostly old, but the spoilers are pretty intense. As the story begins, everyone on Earth is having nightmares, but only Wilf can remember what they're about — and he realizes he needs the Doctor's help. Meanwhile, the Doctor visits the Ood and they say that they, too, are having nightmares — about the Master.

The Master's widow, Lucy Saxon, gets brought to visit the new governor of her prison, only to find out he's an imposter, one of her ex-husband's acolytes. Using that fateful ring, they resurrect the Master, but he comes back damaged and more insane than ever. He roams a junkyard, scaring the residents. The Doctor, meanwhile, rushes to Earth and uses his super-power of smell to "sniff" out the Master. (No, really. He smells him.) They talk, and the Doctor insists he just wants to help, but the Master is too deranged. And finally he runs away.

Wilf enlists the aid of a bunch of senior citizens, called the Silver Curtain, to track the Doctor down. They talk, and the Doctor realizes that Wilf must be special, since he keeps connecting with the Doctor. The Doctor tells Wilf to tell him anything he knows, and Wilf mentions Donna brought home a strange book by Joseph Naismith. They decide to track this Naismith down, in the TARDIS.

But Naismith, with his paramilitary army, have already captured the Master, who's in bondage. It turns out that Naismith has something called the Immortality Gate, which can heal whole worlds, and he wants the Master to fix it. The Doctor appears in Naismith's basement, and meets two members of the Vinvocci species, Rossiter and Addams, who brought the Immortality Gate there. The Doctor runs upstairs, just in time to see the Master step into the Gate. And then everyone cries out, shouting that the Master is in their heads...

Enjoyt!!!Saxon 3 18:55, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

I bet Naismith intends to 'heal' the Earth using the Immoirtality Gate. Judging by the name of his book - 'Fighting the Future' - it may be that he wants to 'heal' Earth from the events involving the constant invasions and how it has changed/wrecoedk society and caused an increase in suicide, as revealed in Children of Earth. But as we know, something will go very wrong... Delton Menace 19:14, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

And judging by the fact that it heals worlds, that may be how a certain planet comes back. And The Master walking through the gate sounds interesting aswell...Saxon 3 20:10, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Weird how he has something to heal worlds and the pictures show complete destruction in the background! I mean, house debris, car wheels, fire in the bacground... My goodness. Talk about healing, I think Naismith is bringing more destruction to the Earth than anything! I keep hearing that the Master gets completely screwed over, too... As in, his return is messed up- his DNA, or whatever... Might explain the meltic-looking skull thing and how he can gather electricity. It seems the Doctor wants to help the Master from this unfortunate problem going on...

I'm also wonder why Donna is reacting weirdly to Naismith's book? Why did she know to get it for Wilf? I could have also SWORE in that clip that she heard the Master's laughter in her head very briefly. Weird. But everyone is having nightmares, too. It is all very, very intriguing. It is said to be a very big story and it is in two parts (one of which is an hour, ther other nearly two hours), so lots will be happening. And the sound of drums is getting louder... This is not a good sign, in my opinion. :)

Naismith has kidnapped the master (thinking he is Harold Saxon) so he can fix the gate, the vinvocci brought it with them to earth i think theey might be trying to heal their world. When The Master walks into the gate it is obvious that he isnt going to do what Naismith tells him to do, he's going to want revenge. He probably reverse enginneered it so it destroys worlds instead. Later then he uses the original function to return gallifrey. Yes something does go wrong with the masters ressurection, but we dont know what, and we have seen the effects. I think the laughing we heard when Donna gave Wilf the book was someone in the screening because they were interviewing Catherine. Now, R.T.D has said that there is more to Wilf than meets the eye, what if he is a Time Lord in human disguise, but obviously he doesnt know it because of the chameleon arch. Maybe he lost the watch in the war? WWII now not the time war. Maybe the sub-conscious time lord Donna knows what is going to happen in the future and brought it for Wilf to prepare him.Saxon 3 20:31, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

You know what? If you rearrange Wilfred Mott = 'Time Lord' can be made out of his name with three extra letter (ftw, which is short ''for the win, so technically Wilfred Mott is like 'Time Lord for the win'). If Wilf turned out to be a Time Lord, that really supports the Donna theory of her being a Time Lady. Both of them have been theorized to be a Time Lord and Time Lady, and they just so happenen to be related. Though, I don't know what that says about Slyvia.

Slvia said that Donna was important because she was her daughter, but then the Doctor breifly said, "Then maybe you should tell her that once ina while." It is almost as if they're trying to hint that Donna is not, in fact, Slyiva's daughter. Delton Menace 20:46, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think that they are all related, but the bit of Time Lord left in Wilf has probably skipped a generation, or considering the fact that Wilf was brought up in a time lords society, Sylvia is so different becuase she was brought up on earth. Because Donna is closer to Wilf in a way she is more likely to be like him. But, you know how the plot summary's and interviews always refer to wilf as an old soldier,maybe he thinks he was a soldier in A war, but not one on earth.... Saxon 3 20:56, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

There was an unsual war in the Fires of Pompiie when Donna was refered to as the 'Daughter of London'. It went like 'Daughter of ...[long pause]... London'. I found it a bit odd that she wasn't just straight called that, but there being a pause before 'London' instead, almost as if he couldn't quite tell where she was from. Like, 'Daughter of Gallifrey'. I kept expecting him to say that.

Following what Donna was called, there was a "she is returning"' Because there were it, he, and they returning mentioned in The End of Time, the only thing missing in "she is returning" from the Fires of Popmiie. It was also said that Donna "calls herself Noble" as if it wasn't her real name. Noble itself means royalty in one language I read a while ago. I'm not sure what 'Donna' means, though.

Didn't Rose also say they were detecting stange energies coming from Donna even without the Time Bettle? And it is odd how she is acting stange right around the time that the Time Lords are theorized to be returning. They return, and suddenly Donna is acting weird.

Delton Menace 14:04, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

"Sacrafices must be made."
We all know what that means. Sacrafices. In The End of Time part 2, for reasons currently unknown, sacrfaices must be made. The question is: who? what? when? where? why?

Sounds like someone has got to die. Actually, more than one individual. Not the 's'. So who do you all think is going to die in The End of Time? Well, who is going to be sacraficed, and for what reasons will they be sacfaiced? To save the Earth? Something else? And don't go telling me no one is going to die because you're proven wrong by the plot summary- and it could be anyone, from a major character to a secondary one. It could be Minnie the Menace, Trinity Wells, Wilf, Donna, anyone!

There is a character that I see dying in The End of Time, but I can't imagine it will be a sacrafice. I'm sure you can all guess what will kill this female (take a guess) because of her little... problem. But that aside, who will the sacrafices be? And why? What's going to happen? Ruusel T. Davies did say it would be very dramatic and sad, so that is drama for you.

Heh, let's have a vote for the sacrafices that 'must be made' out of the following characters...

The sacrafices:

Donna?

Delton Menace 19:51, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Wilf?

Delton Menace 19:51, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Minnie the Manace?

Trinity Wells (based on an interview)?

Delton Menace 19:51, December 22, 2009 (UTC) (maybe)

Other?

Just sign your username under the character who you reckon is most likely going to be sacraficed for whatever reason to probably save humanity from something. Sign under 'Other' if it is none of the above, and then say who you believe the sacraficed will be. Feel free to sign more than one because it doesn't say a single sacfaice, it hints at there being two or more. No wonder the episode has been called heartbreaking if there will be some death in the end. But it is a finale and drama. Drama finale = someone tends to die. :/ Delton Menace 19:51, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Are the time lords bad or good
As if you saw the end of time the timelords looked kind of bad Tell me what you thinkI told you that the time lords are returning a month ago--81.154.183.76 10:43, December 26, 2009 (UTC) by the mysterious
 * I think that like humans, they are neutral. There are good and bad Time lords. e.g. The doctor and the Master ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( Merry Christmas ) ☆

I think that tne Narrator is a bad Time Lord, considering how ruthless that he seems in both the next time trailer and the preview clip for part 2. Because he has high authority, the others simply have to listen to him. But I do think the others are good, however. Delton Menace 11:14, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Chameleon Circuit fixed?
The doctor effectively hides the TARDIS by the means of the chameleon circuit in this episode, making it invisible, does this means he fixed it? --Gridcube 16:56, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

No, he clearly states he's hid it a second out of synch with realtime.Excalibur-117 20:30, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

The Glove
Doesn't the glove used by The Narrator at the end of this preview remind you of Torchwood?

--87.6.155.203 18:16, December 26, 2009 (UTC)Alexandros

Not really... I mean, the gloves looks similar, but they serve different purposes. I would love it if there turned out to be a connection, though. Delton Menace 18:20, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Well, it just felt strange that The Narrator/Lord President had to use an object so similar to the one used in TW, when it could have been anything else (a ring, etc...) or nothing at all (like the Master in this special). --Alexandros86 18:43, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

It is debatable. I mean, the glove came from the Rift, which reaches all throughout time and space. Until see see a good look at the Narrator's glove, we will have to speculate. Perhaps when Gallifrey was destroy, the glove had been lost, and captured by the Rift? It gets things from all over the place. Plus, its origins were never explained. Delton Menace 20:18, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I just got a good view of both gloves... they're identical from what I can see. Delton Menace 21:04, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Question about he cast
What is the difference between 'the Narrator' and 'the Leader of Council' ? --CGW 20:48, December 26, 2009 (UTC)