Forum:References and continuity: what exactly is the difference?

Whilst editing Immortal Sins I started having trouble distinguishing between some references and continuity. Now, I can easily understand the basics of each, but there are some which rather overlap.

For example, take Immortal Sins. "Jack mentions the Doctor". This not continuing something, and Jack is referring to the Doctor, so it would be a reference. "Jack wears his classic RAF coat" (although it isn't there) would be continuity because it continues a fact from a previous episode.

However, then you get things such as:
 * Jack has very similar dialogue with Angelo that the Ninth Doctor had with Rose. (DW: Rose)
 * Jack refers to time making him a fixed point (DW: The Parting of the Ways)
 * The creature Jack and Angelo find was intended to infect President Franklin D. Roosevelt and disrupt history for the Trickster's Brigade. (DW: Turn Left)

Although these are all technically continuity, they're also references. The first one is the reference to the phrase "run", the second is Jack referring to the Bad Wolf, and the third is referencing the Trickster's Brigade. So even though they're technically continuity, they're also references.

So my question is, how do we draw the line between the two? To me it seems very temporal and depending on the particular user. Could we look at the possibility of, instead of having a section for them individually, have a section for them both? --The Thirteenth Doctor 15:05, August 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Isn't the fixed point stuff referred to in Utopia not in The Parting of the Ways?
 * Which is kinda the point.
 * References frame stuff within the in-universe structure of the wiki, while Continuity allows us to frame stuff in how it all fits together.


 * So in the continuity section it'd read:
 * Jack was made immortal in The Parting of the Ways and in Utopia was told by the Doctor that he is a fixed point in time.


 * The Trickster's Brigade is a reference to an in-universe element, but there isn't any need to reference Turn Left, as the Trickster and his brigade is also mentioned in a handful of SJAs, DW and an NA.


 * The dialogue observation would be in Continuity or maybe in story notes, suggesting RTD as executive producer or maybe Espenson is including similar dialogue into TW as DW to echo the similar scenes. --Tangerineduel / talk 16:37, August 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * All part, I fear of the sloppy way words are used here. I have just blogged a long rant on the misuse of the word "plot"  here. I don't expect any change, but I needed to get some of my bile out.
 * Anyway, to address your question, I would say that a reference is a statement that does not bear any more relationship to the plot (or perhaps 'storyline' if you prefer that word), while contuity serves to point out an earlier occurrence of a plot point.
 * To use your examples, Jack has very similar dialogue with Angelo that the Ninth Doctor had with Rose    does not really affect the course of the story.  It is a shout-out to constant Reader who can use this as a point to demonstrate his moral superiority to someone who does not recognize it. On the other  hand,   Jack was made immortal in The Parting of the Ways and in Utopia was told by the Doctor that he is a fixed point in time     is a continuing plot point.  It tells us much about Jack and his personal story arc, while the former statement does not.


 * These are fairly simple and obvious cases in which references and continuity differ. There will be many cases which some people will put in one category and others in the other. Border cases will remain and reasonable men may differ -- but if they're reasonable they'll agree with me, of course.


 * I think they can be summed up as "If it helps to know this to understand the story, it's continuity. If not, it's a reference." Boblipton talk to me 23:57, October 25, 2011 (UTC)