Talk:Tenth Doctor (Journey's End)/Archive 1

Not a fanfic page
Come on folks. I know the TARDIS Wikia's rules are a bit looser than they are at Wikipedia, but still ... the ending of the article turned into complete fanfic. Please remember this is supposed to be an encyclopedia of some sort... 23skidoo 01:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. This isn't fanfiction.net, this is still a Wiki, even if it's not wikipedia. AnimeNoKyouran 01:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this comment refers to the TARDIS coral section, but this is a debate, and was mentioned in more than one magazine. Russell T Davies even discussed it in DWM 398, so it is most definately not fan fiction, it refers only to a deleted scene. -Anonymous

It's not refering to the TARDIS coral, it's refering to the original article which I rewrote. It was very Doctor/Rose lovey dovey, (which I guess the whole idea of the Meta-Crisis Doctor kinda is) but I trimmed it down to keep it to the facts of the conversation on Bad Wolf Bay rather than personal thoughts or feelings about what happened. --Sazzrah

He isn't a clone...
Would be good if this article could be renamed something like half-human Doctor or time lord/human hybrid doctor... Since he is not a clone in the slightest and using the term on an encyclopedia only serves to encourage the use of this innacuracy. --Sazzrah


 * Makes Sense to Me Dark Lord Xander 03:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ye, he's not really a clone at all; I don't know why people discuss him as being a clone, he's "unique"!. Anyway we should try to come up with a list of good names because i'm sure it could be named quite a few different things.--88.104.90.198 20:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions

 * Clone Doctor - NO already!
 * Half-Human Doctor
 * Half-Human Tenth Doctor
 * Half-Human Meta-Crisis Doctor
 * Half-Human Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor
 * Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor
 * Meta-Crisis Doctor
 * Ten-and-a-Halfth Doctor
 * Duplicate Doctor
 * Duplicate Tenth DoctorBatmanboy 15:29, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

How about Half-Human Doctor (Meta Crisis) to distingish from the 8th doctors claims that he may be half human Dark Lord Xander 01:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we should ignore the 8th Doctors claims about being half-human; all other doctors claim to a Time Lord. But I think Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor is most accurate, as he's still the tenth Doctor but he's a human Time Lord biological meta-crisis Doctor.-- 12:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems like a ligical idea Dark Lord Xander 06:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I myself would've gone a completely different direction. I would've opted for Doctor (Pete's World) to keep him consistent with other residents of that parallel universe. That's the simplest, most concise name for who he really is. The whys and wherefores of him, which this title now stresses, are really beside the point. A decade from now, when Journey's End isn't so new and shiny, we'll have forgotten almost everything about this one-episode character, but we will remember this: he's the Doctor that got to live with Rose in Pete's World.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 06:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

That would work only if the doctor came from petes world as jackie and rose went to live there and funny enough they are called Jackie and Rose if you wanted to go down that road it would have to be Doctor (who now lives in Pete's world) besides he came around from a Meta-crisis were as the other doctors regenerated hence first, second ect Dark Lord Xander 06:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Leaviog that to one side for the moment, the MOS says his name is Doctor (Journey's End).  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 22:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Duplicate Doctor - it's what the Time Traveller's Almanac refers to him as, as well as being the name on his Basttles in Time card.
 * Julie Gardner calls him simply the Human Doctor in the Confidential associated with the episode. Elegant, simple, and from the BBC.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍ 02:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * A popular name for Doctor #2 by a majority of fans is "The Other Doctor", because he is the Doctor, but he's not the Doctor. 80.177.217.162 11:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I removed the category Clones because he isn't a clone. A clone is an exact reproduction of genes, he isn't a clone of the Doctor because he's half-Human, the Doctor is a Time Lord (who is also perhaps half-Human). I think the people who call him a clone need to do some research on what a clone actually is. I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! Bigredrabbit 00:30, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

I think it should be renamed "Meta-Crisis Doctor", the "Tenth" makes it seem like he's an actual incarnation of the Doctor, when he's really a seperate individual. I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! Bigredrabbit 00:27, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

How does it make it seem like an incarnation, the Meta-Crisis naming helps to distinguish the fact. I think you need to re-watch the episode, or re-read the article. --Bigshowbower 04:25, December 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * His name as presented (title of page) is a mouthfull but it sounds awesome. The specifity of "10th" allows for any future meta-crisis part-Doctor entity to be distinguished from this one. There is also room for further argument as to wether he should be considered half-human or half-Donna. --Stillnotginger 05:33, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

For

 * --I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! Bigredrabbit 00:27, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Home Planet
Just wondering shouldnt the home planet be Pete's World not just "None" --Bigshowbower 03:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

or TARDIS cos he was born in there (I know its not a planit though)

Fanfic-like editing!
I've changed this several times now, removing all the fanfic-esque romantic drivel that keeps getting put in! If anyone is reading this to edit the page again, please ask yourself the following question before you make changes:

"Is what I'm writing FACT or my OPINION?"

If the answer is OPINION, do not write it!

For example, comments like: "Rose and the half-human Doctor look into reach others eyes lovingly knowing they will have a wonderful future together." is OPINION, not fact. Do not put these types of comments in, it's utterly ludicrous. If you want to read stuff like that then go to www.fanfiction.net not wiki! --Sazzrah 20:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Russell T. Davies' Book "The Writer's Tale"
Since there are huge sections of that book which cover the events of Journey's End, specifically reasons for re-writing the original drafts of the Bad Wolf Bay scene; I think the following link might be of interest to people here:

http://community.livejournal.com/time_and_chips/5584493.html

This is a livejournal entry I personally wrote for the Doctor/Rose community 'Time & Chips', which contains the scripts for the Bad Wolf Bay scene typed out in full, along with emails written by Russell T. Davies and Benjamin Cook. It might help clear up some of the confusion about the TARDIS coral canonicity too. I'm no pro on editing Wikis so I will leave this information in someone elses more capable hands! --Sazzrah 20:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget in-universe style
Just a reminder that articles on characters need to primarily be written in "in-universe" style, as if they actually existed, and all references to scripts, actors, and real world matters need to be placed under a "Behind the scenes" heading. I've reorganized the article accordingly (and updated it a bit with regards to the deleted scene). As Sazzrah correctly states above, though, that doesn't mean the in-universe stuff needs to resemble fanfic. 23skidoo 02:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The Forgotten 5
Given the developments in Doctor who: The Forgotten, don't you think we should update the page with the character's notable change?

Is that canon though?


 * It is canon on this website. So, yes, put it up here. -<Azes13 18:05, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm kind of disgusted by this development. Can't we ignore it?


 * No. That's not very encyclopaedic. -<Azes13 02:46, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd wait till you pass any such judgment... We have no idea if it really is him or not. All we know is that it's someone acting/looking like him. Besides, if it turns out that the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor IS the Valeyard, as makes a lot of sense, then this works quite nicely.

If you really want to de-canonize it, then if you can find something that contradicts it, you may be able to get it a mention on the wiki page, as is done on the Death Comes to Time page regarding the Doctor Who: The TV Movie.--TheOmnius 04:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Forgotten #6 indicates that the parasite that infects the doctor is impersonating the Valeyard. In issue #5 the Doctor refers to this impersonation being the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor. However this contradicts the fact that the Valeyard was created between the Doctor's twelfth and final regenerations. This could mean that he doesn't become the Valeyard until than, or it could mean he isn't the Valeyard at all. We likely won't know for a very very long time. --Deepbluesky 10:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything in Issue 5 making any reference to the Meta-Crisis Doctor in this context. And in Issue 6 there is no reference to this either; the Doctor rather scoffingly refers to this person as the Valeyard, realising by now it's all a ruse, and that's it. So it's all nonsense, and I hope this has been an object lesson to us in jumping the gun (I'm guilty of it, too). I've eradicated all references that suggest the Meta-Crisis Doctor has anything to do with The Forgotten (save for the one behind-the-scenes reference). In future I recommend waiting until all chapters of a story unfold before making assumption (again, I'm guilty of that myself, so shame on me, too). There is the unanswered question as to why the artist chose to draw the Valeyard-impersonation looking like the Tenth Doctor, however. 23skidoo 22:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * This is actually the result of a printing error. For some reason the dialogue for page 1 of issue 6 didn't print. This has been corrected in the trade paperback. Tony Lee (the comic's author) explains it himself here. The corrected dialogue directly references the character as the Meta-Crisis Doctor. Zinc Saucier 00:18, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Part human
In at least one point in Journey's End the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor refers to himself as part human, part Time Lord. I'm not sure there's any authoritative on-screen source to suggest that he is half anything.

This has some important implications when it comes to Donna's Meta-Crisis, and the half-human statement from 1996.

Can anyone find a reliable source to indicate if the MCTD is half human and half Time Lord?--TheOmnius 17:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Meta-Crisis Doctor
I belive that it should be renamed Meta-Crisis Doctor insted of Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor. Putting the Tenth in there establishes him as being an incarnation of the Doctor, whereas he is infact a completely different indvidual, who is just based on the Doctor's genes. Seeing as he is referred to as the Doctor, I believe that Doctor should still be kept in there. Another suggestion is The Doctor (Meta-Crisis) or The Doctor (Journey's End) Bigredrabbit 23:44, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Your suggestions are good, however it becomes problematic because this clone (or whatever) is identified closely with the Tenth Doctor and is in fact a copy of the Tenth Doctor. He's not a copy of the Seventh or Fourth Doctor. And he doesn't regenerate. Therefore he remains associated with a single version of the Doctor. Although unlikely we don't know if someday we might learn of a Meta Crisis Doctor copying another incarnation. We also don't know if he continued calling himself the Doctor after going off with Rose. Calling him The Doctor (Meta-Crisis) is a bit too broad. 23skidoo 22:53, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Is it wrong?
The doctor did give him a piece of the tardis, not sure if it was cut for america or something, but i watched it and meta crisis doctor was given a piece. However ,i do think that the scene has been changed a bit.
 * Please sign your comments. The scene you're referring to was cut from all versions of the episode, but included as a bonus feature on the DVD. Because it's a deleted scene, it cannot be said for 100% certain that it's canon. 23skidoo 17:42, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Home planet
We can't say "Gallifrey/Earth" as his home planet. Since he was created within the TARDIS, he technically has no home planet. So all we can say is Pete's World as his adopted home for now. 23skidoo 17:42, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Children of Time template
I thought the whole Children of Time business referred only to the Doctor's companions? If so, then the M-C Doctor shouldn't be included as one. 23skidoo 22:49, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Does he still exist?
The times and events of The Stolen Earth and Journey's End were unwritten, and that is when the Meta-Crisis Doctor was created, so.. does the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor not exist anymore?

half-human "put to rest"
The article states that this character "put to rest the long debate over the validity of the Eighth Doctor's claim of being half-human"

How is this true, exactly? The Tenth Doctor only says that a Meta-Crisis creation *like him* has never existed before and that a creation like the Meta-Crisis Doctor can't regenerate. Since he has one heart, he is clearly a separate case from the a half-human / half-Gallifreyan on display in the TV Movie. Remember that a Gallifreyan is not necessarily a Time Lord, so both things can be true: the Doctor was born of a human mother and a Gallifreyan father, eventually becoming a Time Lord *and* the now-Time Lord Doctor cannot be merged with a human and have the resulting creation also be a Time Lord.

While I understand that this character is a strong *argument* against the true Doctor being half-human, it hardly "puts it to rest". Darth Prefect 21:14, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, that and the fact he said that he had tricked his greatest enemy into believing he was half human once. The Thirteenth Doctor 21:21, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * When did he say that? Darth Prefect 13:14, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Confusion
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't have much experiance with Doctor Who, seeing as I only learned about the Doctor about a month ago. But I am a little confused about this half-human doctor thing. Is this The Doctor from Pete's World? Or some alternate Doctor paralel to the Doctor we all know and love? I would have thought this was the actual Doctor, but seeing as how The Doctor has regenerated, and the Meta-Crisis Doctor ages and dose not regenerate, the Meta-Crisis Doctor just doesn't seem to fit anywhere. I'm sure there is a perfectly obvious explination, but I don't see it. --173.172.81.26 14:03, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Davros buring the Tardis with Donna still in it moved by the heart beat again she found the Doctor's hanc in jar(he lost is hand in anther episode grew a new one and placed it in a jar(off scene) twice tourching it made anther clone of the Doctor Donna DNA add some of her quicks in him also made him human then when Davros and the Dalkes where stop the Doctor toke Rose himself and the human Doctor to pete worlds

p.s:the heart beat with the human Doctor's can't answrer how saying he wasn't made it.-meerkatgirl