Talk:The Toymaker

Title
Aren't we cheating according to our naming conventions with this page? I would've thought that, like the Doctor, the Monk, the Master, the Rani and the 456, this character is properly the Celestial Toymaker, not just Celestial Toymaker. Course, that would mean changing The Celestial Toymaker to The Celestial Toymaker (TV story). Anyone else think this should be changed?  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  00:13, December 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Isn't he often called just "Toymaker" by the Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Doctors? In the same way the Tenth calls the Master, "Master", so the the 'Celestial' part is inferred to be his title? --Tangerineduel 12:59, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

My Wish
I wish they'd﻿ bring back the celestial toymaker. When I watched the serial, I was surprised by how good it was. He was a great villain, there's so much they could do with the character.

Gotta agree with you, but the talk page meant for discussions about how to improve this article, and not for saying your opinion about its subject. Opinions should go to The Howling :) Puchplimmirdeyslithin ☎  20:52, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

An Old One or a Guardian?
I was just wondering how we should classify the Toymaker. In both Divided Loyalties and The Quantum Archangel he's explicitly stated as being one of Guardians of Time. Yet in The Nightmare Fair (audio story) the Doctor states that he "originated in another universe before this one" meaning presumaely the Pre-Universe, where the Old Ones live, and also in both The Magic Mousetrap and Black and White the Doctor and Ace individually refer to him as an Elder God, which is another name for Great Old One. So I just wanted some clarification on whether he should be classified as one or not? If so I'll include Great Old One in his "species" column and mention it in "List of Great Old Ones". But I just wanted your thoughts before making the edits. Sutekh&#39;sGift ☎  17:22, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * As I recall, the backstory to Craig Hinton's work on the subject is that the Guardians, including the Toymaker, were the High Council of Time Lords (or rough equivalent) of the universe preceding this one - in other words, the two accounts of the Toymaker's identity are consistent. But I can't recall whether this is explicitly stated in any of his published books.86.178.206.178talk to me 19:18, December 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * If true, that's brilliant, since it even throws in the third possible identity (albeit offscreen), that of his being a Time Lord. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  21:14, October 11, 2018 (UTC)

Timeline
It seems highly questionable to place the events of Relative Dimensions (comic story) where the page currently does (directly after the events of The Celestial Toymaker). Since the Toyroom is growing so old as to be breaking down, and the Toymaker permanently leaves it at the end, one would presume it postdates the events of Solitaire (audio story) and The Magic Mousetrap (audio story) at the very least, since those stories feature the original Toyroom, intact.

Furthermore, it probably postdates all other appearances of the Toymaker. The story presents itself as his final, bittersweet "defeat" at the hands of the Doctor, and thus I am pretty sure the intention is that it takes place after whatever other Doctor vs. Toymaker narratives may have been produced in-between. I can't think of another case where, without specific in-story statements, adventure of a Doctor facing one of his classic enemies has been arbitrarily placed before confrontations of previous Doctors with that same enemy.

I really can't think of a good reason why this confusing chronology has emerged here — save possibly that the only flashback we get when the Doctor is explaining the Toymaker to Clara is of The Celestial Toymaker with Hartnell's Doctor, but that's very tenuous evidence at best, easily superseded by what I outline above. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  21:14, October 11, 2018 (UTC)


 * I'd like to question his physical appearance in Endgame (DWM comic story) and why it looks identical to his appearance in The Celestial Toymaker (TV story). We know this body belongs to Rallon and that particular body was dying and decaying in Divided Loyalties (novel) and the Toymaker took another form as of The Nightmare Fair (audio story). Endgame is the latest of those 4 stories. --DCLM ☎  19:16, February 15, 2020 (UTC)


 * "We know" is a very subjective statement. Divided Loyalties does say that the Toymaker's body in the original TV story was stolen from Rallon, but nothing in the TV story ever suggested the Toymaker's body was not his own. Endgame makes no reference to Divided Loyalties, and I would argue that it is more likely disregarding that book altogether than setting itself before it in the Toymaker's timeline, especially with the (obvious) lack of reference from the Toymaker in Divided Loyalties to having met a future incarnation of the Doctor in the time since he and the book's Doctor last met. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  19:22, February 15, 2020 (UTC)


 * To the first part... that is called evolution of the franchise. The First Doctor's era never named his race or planet. This was added in later on in the history. Evolution and expansion. Most likely the same case with Rallon's body. To the second part... you could easily say that even the Toymaker respected the timelines and was bound to not mentioning the future of the Doctor to the Doctor. --DCLM ☎  19:44, February 15, 2020 (UTC)


 * It's one thing when the stories which expand the lore afterwards are big high-profile notorious things; it's another thing when a Wilderness Years novel adds weird unexpected lore to the title character of one of the most famous Hartnell serials. It is overwhelmingly likely that a lot of people using the Toymaker today would do so directly on the basis of The Celestial Toymaker, with no knowledge of, or care for, what the Wilderness Years did or did not say the character.


 * I'd thus liken "the Toymaker is a body-snatcher who was possessing Rallon's body at the time" being ignored by another Toymaker story to "the Great Intelligence is Yog-Sothoth" being ignored by The Snowmen and the whole mess that caused. When two different EU stories say different things about a notorious character from televised Who, we should not necessarily assume they are trying to fit with one another. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  19:52, February 15, 2020 (UTC)


 * Then what if the Celestial Toymaker should pop up in a future story and he looks nothing like his appearance from the 60s? What do we say then? --DCLM ☎  20:06, February 15, 2020 (UTC)


 * What we always say: "according to one account". More precisely, "According to one account this was a stolen body which blah blah (PROSE: Divided Loyalties), and another account indeed showed the Toymaker later inhabiting a different body. (COMIC: Imaginary Example Story) However, according to several other accounts, the Doctor continued encountering a Toymaker with the same appearance as during the First Doctor's confrontation with him, with no signs of aging nor indeed any hints that the body was not his own. (COMIC: Endgame, Relative Dimensions, PROSE: More Example Stories, etc.)" --Scrooge MacDuck ☎  20:14, February 15, 2020 (UTC)