User talk:Victory93

Welcome to my talk page.

Captain Adelaide Brooke Card
Please could you tell me the location of this collectable in City of the Daleks please as it's the final one that I need to collect? Dsrwade23 11:59, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Unmade
Hi. What's wrong with using the template:Nc template? Rather than unmade? It's certainly a lot less...imposing than a huge banner (usually that size is reserved for cleanup style things that get removed later). --Tangerineduel 13:59, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've swapped the unmade for the nc template especially after looking at the unmade template under the new wiki skin that's rolling out, the combination of the large tag, bolded font, fixed width of the page, just means that the tag is a little too big for what it's trying to say. The NC one has practically the same point, the 'unproduced' element of the pages is usually communicated in the first paragraph in any case. --Tangerineduel 16:32, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Return to Varnax isn't canon, the use of Varnax in The Infinity Doctors and where ever else makes the name "Varnax" and its description of it in The Infinity Doctors canon. But it doesn't make the unmade work canon.
 * Shada is a unique case in that the BBC released a video version somewhat completing/acknowledging it.
 * The best thing would be to note, within the articles that ideas, concepts or whatever has been worked into later works which are within canon. But I don't think a template is the way to do this. For example Varnax cites canon sources, whilst noting within the behind the scenes section that it was to have featured in an unmade movie in the '90s. --Tangerineduel 12:04, October 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Shada was made into something released and sanctioned by the BBC, in being released by the BBC it's completed sort of and therefore canon.
 * The issue is that those stories that template on aren't canon. The concepts used for example Varnax are canon because of their use in the canon sources. Because they're mentioned in an unmade source doesn't make that unmade source canon.
 * The small text underneath should be worked into the article, not placed within a template.
 * The stories which are listed are unmade, and therefore aren't linked to anything in universe (because those in universe things would link to the canon reference). So there doesn't need to be a tag informing users of that. The articles themselves need to inform people. There is sometimes a case of too many tags on an article. --Tangerineduel 12:27, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Dalekese
It is a trusim of wiki administration that there are far more people creating articles than there are administrators to police them. Thus, you will always find examples on the wiki of things that "aren't right" according to the site's rules or even just plain common sense. The fact that you can find articles which are based solely on information from secondary sources like reference works means more that we've just not got around to deleting it. It doesn't mean those articles should be allowed to stand.

The problem with Doctor Who reference works is that so many reference works are, frankly, crap. Unlike the Star Wars universe, where many reference works are actually used by writers and therefore "respected", many reference works in the DWU are aimed at younger fans, writers therefore don't treat them seriously, and thus information in them is quickly invalidated. A classic example is Jean-Marc Lofficier's assertion that Polly Wright's last name was Lopez. This came from Lofficier's own mishearing of a line in The Faceless Ones. So not only was it not actually Polly's last name, but the word "Lopez" never appeared in the serial! And there are many, many other examples — including, I'm afraid, "Dalekese". For all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist in the DWU, because no writer has picked up on it.

So reference works can be used to supply secondary information, typically in a behind the scenes section, but they should never be the entire basis of an article.

I think you can briefly mention it in the behind the scenes section at Dalek, but by no means should you try to reproduce the vocabulary list. If you can find a reference to the existence of "Dalekese" in any narrative — and by that, I mean that the word Dalekese must appear in a story — then you may re-create the article and return the vocabulary list. Otherwise, it's really only worthy of a sentence or two at Dalek's behind the scenes section. 09:43: Sun 09 Oct 2011
 * By the way, if Dalekese is going to be anywhere, my guess is that it would be in a Dalek annual. I've recently been reading and writing about these.  I don't recall this word, but it has a very "Dalek annual"-y vibe to it.  I will be on the lookout for it, and if I do come across the word, you can rest assured that I will instantly resurrect your article in toto. In the meantime, I can eliminae some things for you.  It absolutely doesn't occur on screen in any canonical television episode.  I've never heard it in a BF Dalek play written by Nick Briggs, which leads me to believe he isn't a particular fan of the reference work from which you got your information. Given the amount of Dalek material he writes, that's a serious blow to the term's narrative credibility. So I think you're looking for a Dalek annual from the 1960s or 70s, or maybe a very early use of Daleks in an original novel.  Maybe John Peel might have done something with the term, as an obvious fan of Hartnell-era Daleks.  09:56: Sun 09 Oct 2011
 * It's not about whether the work is licensed or not. Obviously The Dalek Pocketbook and Space Travellers Guide is "official" in that sense.  It's about the fact that the BBC has never tightly controlled and edited the things that have gone out with its logo.  Reference works, even if they bear the BBC logo, are simply prone to error.  More to the point, though, this site is dedicated to cataloguing the narratives of the DWU.  RTD has speculated in a non-fiction part of the Doctor Who Annual 2006 that the first salvo of the Last Great Time War was Genesis of the Daleks.  But that's not in a narrative so it doesn't "count" for our purposes.  We can mention it in a behind the scenes section, but we can't flatly sate in the in-universe portion of an article that it is so.


 * You want this article in because you wrote it. I'd love for you to have it in, if you can find a narrative reference for it.  But the situation is no different from the examples you gave of Kaldor being misspelled Caldor. You're choosing to say that it's a "spelling error" or "continuity error" simply because you don't like that spelling, not because Robots of Death actually contradicts it.  I'm saying that must be ignored because it's from a non-narrative reference work.  That reason is a hell of a lot easier to administrate than treating Doctor Who: 100 Scariest Monsters on par with narrative elements.  If we treated reference works on an equal footing to narrative elements we'd have one HELL of a time sorting through a raging sea of bad information.  You make spelling errors seem like a dawdle, but spelling errors are amongst the biggest problems on a wiki.  Nothing matters quite as much, in fact, as the title you place on an article, because it's the article titles, and not the content, which really creates the spine of a wiki.


 * Believe me, I'm not trying to block you, in particular, from doing something cool on the wiki. Silcronian hasn't been "kept"; I've simply not run across that article.  It's now deleted.  Thanks for pointing it out.  If you see other articles like this, please let me know, as I will delete them just as swiftly as I did yours.


 * In terms of the practicalities of administering the wiki, we absolutely need to be able to prioritise the possible sources out there. Thus there are some things which are positively properly licensed which are nevertheless "inferior" information. If we allowed in Dalekese, we'd have to allow in Polly Lopez, Caldor, Wirrrn, and God knows what else.  And that's just not happening.  It's hard enough to justify using "Polly Wright", without also having to allow a redirect from Polly Lopez.


 * It's for our own sanity, really, that we've taken the stance here that narrative trumps everything else. Reference works can be used only in a supplementary fashion on in-universe articles.  Obviously reference works are written from a real world perspective, and thus aren't "in-universe".   Hope that clears things up.    10:53: Sun 09 Oct 2011


 * Your recent proposal is really just what you've been saying all along, but put into a new section on my talk page. You're really not grasping the administrative difficulties of what you suggest.  So I'll respond by repeating myself, too.


 * In-universe articles must only describe things that exist in the DWU. If a thing isn't present in any story, it doesn't exist in the DWU because the DWU is a narrative construct.  Dalekese doesn't exist in any story of which either you or I are aware.  Thus, it can't have an in-universe article written about it.  It's really that simple.


 * And I'm really sorry, but there is no compromise aside from that to be had here. There's so very much to write about which doesn't come close to this problematic area. I strongly urge you to make a note about Dalekese at the behind the scenes section of Dalek and just move on.


 * That's really all there is to it. But I'm concerned that you think this is all about a few minor errors in an ancient reference work. It's very important hat you understand this is not the case. Reference materials, especially from the classic series, are notoriously inaccurate.  It's not just about the tiny errors that have been mentioned in our discussion so far.  You're seriously underestimating the size and scope of the difficulties if you believe the problems with reference books are limited to just spelling errors.


 * In some cases, the whole perspective of some reference works is just wrong. Take for instance, Doctor Who: The TARDIS Inside Out.   It's ostensibly a book that gives JNT's views of the actors who have portrayed the Doctor, and, broadly, the DW phenomenon itself.  The thing is, none of it is really accurate.  It's not even an accurate reflection of his own views.  It's 100% fluff and spin.  It wouldn't be right to use his statements in this book about his relationship with Tom Baker without also giving other quotes from himself seen in other sources.  The book is virtually useless as a serious work of genuine scholarship, as it's JNT's obvious attempt at revisionist history, most of which can easily be disproved with a modicum of research into other works.


 * A more modern example of the same phenomenon is Doctor Who: The Writer's Tale. There are a number of in-universe things that are mentioned there.  Can we create an article on, say, the-companion-named-Penny-who-never-was?  No.  The fact that her existence was mentioned in an officially licensed book means nothing because she never made it into a narrative. The book is a treasure trove of behind-the-scenes info, obviously — but it's totally useless as a source for any in-universe information.  Because its perspective is that of a conversation between two people in e-mail, you're never quite sure how much of the in-universe information is trustworthy, and how much posturing, sarcasm, or irony.


 * Another example is The Doctor Who Technical Manual. Its blueprints regarding the Daleks and K9, just for a start, show things that simply cannot be squared with known functionalities or pre-existing blueprints that were actually included in narratives.  It's a jaw-droppingly awful piece of "scholarship", done by people who may not have actually seen that much DW.


 * An important point to realise about a lot of reference materials from the past is that the authors didn't have the advantage of home video, and they may not have even had meaningful access to the BBC archives. Most reference books really are riddled with errors simply because they were written before the existence of cheap home video.


 * Of course, we can't have a rule which says some reference materials are good, whereas others are crap. If we start down that route, we'll end up saying, "Well, I don't much like Paradise Towers, so I won't count that, either."  For administrative ease, the rule must be based upon an entire class of publication, not individual publications.


 * Nobody's saying you can't use the information you glean from a reference work. It's just that you can't base an article on only information from a reference work.  You can still talk about Dalekese on this site.  It just has to be done within the confines of a behind the scenes section because it has no narrative presence.


 * We can't possibly administrate a policy like you suggest. Is it really reasonable to ask an administrator to fact check an article on the basis of whether one source conflicts with another? Given that DW reference works are far more likely to be wrong than right, it is simply easier to consider them the opinions of the author, and therefore include information from them in behind the scenes sections.


 * Again, though, this is a very simple concept that doesn't really warrant the size of this conversation. This wiki is about the DWU.  The DWU is created by narrative alone.  If there is no narrative, then the thing can't be in the DWU.  If the thing isn't in the DWU, then you can't write an in-universe article about it.  If you can't write an in-universe article, then the only place for the information is within the bounds of a behind the scenes section.


 * Honestly, the underlying concept here is a matter of very simple logic, which doesn't allow for negotiation or exceptions.
 * 04:10: Mon 10 Oct 2011


 * Are you actually reading everything I'm taking the time to write? It's like you pick up on one tiny aspect of the total statement, but ignore the rest.  I explained, twice, in my last message alone, why reference works cannot be used as the sole source for narrative information.  That I gave a variety of examples to demonstrate the unreliability of reference works.  Some of those examples had to do with OOU matters, some with IU, but all demonstrated the general unreliability of DW reference works.


 * There is no argument which you can possibly construct which will allow the creation of in-universe articles using solely reference works. It's just not gonna happen.  Dalekese will not be an article unless you can find a narrative which mentions it.  Please turn your attention to other matters.
 * 05:13: Mon 10 Oct 2011


 * We simply can't go around dividing single works into parts that are valid sources and parts that aren't. They're either all in, or all out.  And, trust me, they're all out.  I'm also not prepared to countenance making up some list where we put the "good" reference books next to the "bad" ones.  Again, for ease of administrations, the whole class of books has to be treated the same, in order for policies to be communicated simply.


 * In your latest message, you speak of accepting parts of reference books written "from an in-universe perspective". It's not about perspective, really.  It's about actually being in-universe.  And again, if it's not a narrative, it's not in universe. Writing about the DWU is a very different thing from writing in the DWU.  Pages can only be started with information that comes from a DWU source.  That's an obvious fact.  I don't understand why you're trying so hard to get around it.


 * I am absolutely positive that no admin in the history of the wiki has ever given so much time to giving a simple deletion rationale. I've been more than generous with my time.  However, I must inform you that I do have other duties around here, and this is kinda gettin' in the way.  So let me be blunt.  Your reqeust is denied.  A reference work cannot be the only source of information about an in-universe subject.  I can't put it any more plainly than that.


 * I'm sorry if I've not been able to adequately explain that decision to your satisfaction, but I've given it one hell of an ol' college try.
 * 05:48: Mon 10 Oct 2011