User talk:WJDTwGL

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Thanks for becoming a member of the TARDIS crew! If you have any questions, see the Help pages, add a question to one of the Forums or ask on my talk page. Doug86 ☎  18:38, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

Timelines
Hello. I reverted your edit to the Master pages because Prisoners of Time and Destiny of the Doctors feature an older Tremas Master without the Cheetah virus, which totally contradicts Prime Time and the Eight Doctors as the Cheetah virus infested Master in those stories lives from Survival right through the ingesting the Deathworm Morphant seen in The Movie. Because of this a fourth contradictory timeline Post-Survival exists for the Master.

In the case of the Monk, I reverted your edits because the NA books for the Monk are set directly after he escapes being trapped after The Dalek's Master Plan, and that there was also an inaccuracy in the edit stating that the Monk from The Black Hole wanted revenge for Tamsin's death when it should have been under The Secret History. I also think that attributing an actor name to each Monk doesn't exactly work since the NA Monk never had an actor portraying him, despite what the author may have intended him to look like.

I hope that has clarified things for you, and that you enjoy contributing to the wiki in the future. Thanks. --Revan\Talk 18:50, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

I admit that I haven't yet read No Future, and what I had gathered from reading about the novel that it was set post-ice planet. In that case make the changes, just make sure to explain why you've placed the No Future Monk there in relation to the others. Thanks! --Revan\Talk 19:03, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

In Dust Breeding the Warp Core has stripped away the Trakenite DNA from the Master, so it has to be the Tremas Master he precedes. For both the Doctor and the Master they state their last meeting was on the Cheetah Planet, so it's definately another contradiction. It is weird that both Stop the Pigeon and Dust Breeding were written by the same author, but out of universe there was clearly many efforts to differentiate Big Finish from the BBC Books. You can see all of that more clearly with the Eighth Doctor stuff - it's like a minefield. --Revan\Talk 20:03, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

Placement: BF and Virgin
Hi. I'm sorry if I have come across as intolerant or ignorant, but this issue comes down to one of the oldest issues in the book: "canon" and continuity. The Virgin books are indeed a direct continuation of the cancelled TV series, which makes "placement" extremely difficult: both BBC Books and Big have attempted to make direct continuations of the show, ie. a de facto "Series 28", immediately disrupting the flow of character and universe continuity. However, this wiki does not attempt to come up with definitive placement, answers to production errors or solutions to discontinuity. The Big Finish stories were produced as ongoing adventures set post-Survival, and have developed Ace in a very different way, yes, but they are still intended to be set prior to the NAs. If we decide to come up with speculative answers to problems with continuity (ie. "Ace lacks memory of age in BF, knows it in NAs, therefore loss of memory post NAs sets BF stories after NAs"), then we not only work against what is intrinsically the purpose of the wiki (to display information, rather than formulate new ideas) but we also open up a whole can of worms. I could equally say that the "mind wipe" scene at the beginning of Timewyrm: Genesys is the reason why Ace thinks she remembers her age: her mind has reverted to a point when she did. Lungbarrow leaves the Doctor with potential for a sneaky trip or two before heading off to Skaro, so therefore all of the DWM comic stories with 7 solo take place there. Et cetera. I sympathise with you when you when you suggest that certain placements don't make any sense, but this is Who 101. Even in the TV series, stories constantly contradict each other, sometimes deliberately and other times by accident. However, the clear authorial intent is what we follow on this wiki. BF want to set all of the Ace/Hex audios before the NAs, so that's how we arrange them. Certain alterations can be made, such as setting the Timewyrm tetralogy apart from the rest, thus reconciling a few issues, but by and large, it is necessary to follow what is intended rather than what is "right". I'm rather confused that nobody has told Ms Aldred that, regardless of how she wishes to play Ace in Nightshade and Love and War, the character is supposed to be older than even the Dead to the World Ace in Theatre of War and All-Consuming Fire. This is just yet another unfortunate choice which makes characterisation less consistent according to continuity. So, to recap: we work by narrative and intent. When Signs and Wonders states that "Dorothée" is a potential future for Ace, it makes clear that, according to the producers and authors, the NA series takes place after that story. When Deceit places the Cat's Cradle trilogy, Nightshade and Love and War consecutively, we are forced to make adjustments to where Memorial and Metamorphosis go. But when there are an equal amount of errors either way, we go with what is intended, and base our choices primarily on authorial decisions, not actors' choices.

By the way, you may want to note that two of the issues you raised are not strictly problems. Love and War is very much a BF story as well as a NA, and the "problem" you detail is something BF have "solved". Equally, The Prisoner's Dilemma was unusual in it's placement, but stories such as The Lights of Skaro and Intervention Earth have since provided explanations for both the reasons she is again travelling with the Doctor and the extent of memory loss she suffers.

I'm sorry we've gotten into a debate so early on in your wiksperience (yeah, just made that one up), but I hope you get where both I and we as a community are coming from. Best wishes on your further ventures on Tardis, and feel free to contact me again if you need anything. If you still have big problems with the placements of various stories, you might want to bring it up with the community as a whole on a particular article talk page, or contact an admin for specific policy rulings. Happy editing. RogerAckroydLives ☎  16:01, December 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * I see where you're coming from, I really do, but your own statement makes clear why we do what we are currently doing. Implication is never the same thing as statement. BF make it clear in a number of stories that the NAs take place after their ongoing arc(s). Much of the characterisation and storytelling may well imply that Ace's timeline works the way you detail it, but statement trumps implication. If an upcoming story were to have a post-Hex Ace remembering Benny, then this debate would be much more difficult to resolve, but until then, we must extrapolate from the facts. Therefore, we stick one mind wipe before another, with absolutely no way of being "sure" where either is set. But, while the Timewipe (NA) is one which affects both the Doctor (to a lesser extent) and Ace, the Crimewipe (BF) is only an Ace thing. Therefore, if we swap them around, we simply get even bigger problems trying to reason what the Doctor does or doesn't recall, given he hasn't been wiped. If there is a point where things can be slotted in with more regard to the intents of all creative contributors, we will embrace it with open arms. But, while our current (but most definitely not definitive) timeline is wrong, you haven't proposed a sequence which isn't wrong-er. RogerAckroydLives ☎  16:29, December 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * If you want to start a major debate about placement, which is one of the least important parts of this wiki (every fan can have and most do have an individual "order" or set of stories they feel are "canon", etc.), then I would advise you to go to a talk page or start a forum thread. It isn't really relevant what "continuity problems" I may or may not have with your ideal sequence, but given how the in-universe articles on this wiki are written, it would be far more problematic to assume that your wording of a particular entry would be understood by everyone "because of the stories", when the point of a wiki is to be a source in and of itself. If you want to propose a way we can improve the Seventh Doctor and Ace articles, then, without actual physical evidence, you need to appeal to the community in order to make a democratic decision. It's not unambiguous where Time's Crucible might be set with regard to every other Doctor Who story ever written under license from the BBC, but as a wiki we have to take a stance. And without a democratic decision, we can't simply alter that stance to our own. RogerAckroydLives ☎  16:49, December 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * It seems my original reply was lost, but its essence was the following: allowing for a little ambiguity should be fine, but the article must still be written completely objectively, not implying that its placement is either here or there. I have rewritten it accordingly: it isn't great, but I accept that it better complies with a potential production p.o.v. Feel free to advise me if you think it still needs work. RogerAckroydLives ☎  07:49, December 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * It's accurate, but by the time you're getting into that much detail on, it's something that belongs on a discontinuity page. Do you have a particular problem with how it's currently worded? I would have thought it had a great enough level of ambiguity, but if you don't think so, I'm happy to listen to further propositions. RogerAckroydLives  ☎  08:59, December 30, 2015 (UTC)

Narvin -Master
can you give me a track and tome for your proof? Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 19:25, January 12, 2016 (UTC) I meant time but thanks Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 19:37, January 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Proof is

Narvin : The actions of coordinator Straxus are regretable. The Doctor: Then you (referring to Narvin) took the insane step of sending the Master to clear things up using the Eminence Narvin: I admit certain error of Judgement have been made, that's ehy I'm here now.

The Doctor says Narvin sent the Master to clean up Straxus' mess and Narvin regrets to action.

Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 19:42, January 12, 2016 (UTC)

Re: Stop the Pigeon
The edit you refer to was me correcting a capitalisation issue. In answer to your question, the problem is not to do with whether it was the Tremas Master who was infected, it refers to the fact the FF leaves no "infected but still travelling within Tremas' body" gap. RogerAckroydLives ☎  03:29, January 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, he could be lying, but so could every character, ever. We assume that characters are telling the truth when it isn't suggested or proven otherwise. The Tardis wiki community doesn't focus on showing the DWU as one coherent whole, it simply displays all licensed works and assembles the narrative as best as it can. Continuity and canon really isn't our forte, so whether the post-Survival Master gets help from the Tzun, goes in search of Virgoans, makes an alliance with the Inter Minorians or regenerates into a duplicate of Michael Jackson, we don't claim to know. We simply say what other sources say, rather than fitting together jigsaw puzzle that, nine times out of ten, isn't even supposed to fit. RogerAckroydLives ☎  03:50, January 13, 2016 (UTC)

Damaged Goods
If I could butt in, this wiki does not not have any such policy as you refer to with regard to adaptations. Novelisations, yes, but adaptations, no. RogerAckroydLives ☎  01:37, February 8, 2016 (UTC)

Master timeline
I didn't do it for no reason. If you read the stories, there's no way that the ones which follow The Movie could all fit together. The Glorious Dead states that the Master passed through the Eye of Harmony immediately after the film, while Forgotten has him in there for a long time before he escapes. Also in Forgotten the Doctor states that the last time he met the Master was in San Francisco, leaving no gap for his chats in the EDAs to take place.

After Survival is also similar, Stop the Pigeon has the Master suffering from the Cheetah Virus and meeting the Doctor for the first time since Survival, while in First Frontier the Master landed in Roswell immediately after Survival with no Cheetah Virus and meets the Doctor for the first time since Survival again. In another conflicting route that I could have added to the page is that the post-Survival Master in The Eight Doctors is in Tremas' body but hasn't met the Doctor since Survival and has been planning his revenge since, contradicting Stop the Pigeon and Prime Time.

Doctor Who doesn't fit neatly into one neat line, and believe me I spent a long time trying to work out ways in which it could. The timeline we had on there was simply lying about the flow of events in the Master's life at these points, so the reason for my edit was to clarify the discrepancies for readers wanting to learn more about his timeline. --Revan\Talk 15:56, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

Timeline change
Hello there. We haven't talked before, but I've noticed your interest in the timeline forums, particularly Seven's. I just wanted to be sporting and tell you that I've spent the past month coming up with the most logical formula for Seven's confusing timeline, and believe I have found the one that works best. Nonetheless, if you see a flaw that I've overlooked, feel free to rearrange my theory, just leave an explanation below the story so a better understanding for all is there.

Yours in peace, BananaClownMan ☎  19:14, July 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * Glad you approve. Well, there are so many accounts saying the TARDIS gets redecorated into the Telemovie design that I just ignored them for the most part, but left a note anyway incase someone else found a way to explain it. I guess saying it changes back and forth would be as good an explanation as any. Also, in a project like this, I take whatever hint I can get. If he's shown looking old or young on the cover, and the story doesn't contradict that, I take it for what it is; he's old and alone.BananaClownMan ☎  21:07, July 13, 2016 (UTC)

Hello there, just wanted to give you some advice. Firstly, just because the audio and book covers are sometimes wrong is no reason to dismiss them all. Also, as we talked about earlier, the TARDIS interior is one of the many continuity conundrums in the Seventh Doctor's timeline, so it can't be said that all stories or audios that mention it being recently changed come on-after the other. It's just as plausible that he changes it continuously, especially since he goes back to hos TV interior in UNIT: Dominion after having the telemovie one in The Settling and so forth. Finally, it doesn't really seem plausible for the Klien stories to come in a row, as the Doctor is nearing his end by Persuasion, and Raine comes and goes by then. I hope this explains why I changed the timeline to how it was, and if you see a flaw in my logic, please do share so we can debate a solution.

Yours without malice, BananaClownMan ☎  09:12, July 14, 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the long list of "advice", now it is time for me to defend them. First, what do you mean by "features". If you mean the limiting factors, that was there before I expanded upon it, so that one can't be pinned on me.

1/6/13/20/22/25/26/27/36) I like to add a bit of a brief plot summery to remind myself during the construction phase what happened when in the event an expanded universe piece mentions it. I leave it there when I upload it so others can get a rough idea of why a certain order is used. It also helps cover "Whan Events", for lack of a better term, such as joinings, departures and companion deaths

2) The amount of lindos hormone in his system indicated how soon the regeneration was, as explained in the audio.

3) The disc explanation is because the two disc give two difference account of events.

4) Both are words, so either can be used I suppose.

5) For events that depict flashbacks, flash-forwards or mention of other events, I like to leave a little note to what is depicted, to indicate it is a small part of a larger story.

7) You seem to start rambling at this point, and the advice isn't very clear or constructive as a result.

8/12) Who's "we"? And it is a fact that any story where Ace knows the Brig must come after Battlefield, the age thing is just another fact that limits suggestion. What other word can be used other than "setting"?

9/10/11) Well, since you boast such an understanding of proper timeline etiquette, how come you haven't noticed this practice being used in the previous six Doctors' pages.

15) Documenting when the Doctor first meets someone is important for when they reunite, or they get mentioned again. Also, in the case of Colditz Castle, the location is also mentioned again down the line.

17) Anthologies are generally ignored, as the individual audios and prose are what truly document events.

18) Unless Ace definitely mentions Spacefleet or being in an army, it's an implication.

19) It does if he previously mentions not going to a location.

28) You keep saying audio covers can't be used due to errors in the past, yet say the implications of aging on The Architects of History is valid. I'm afraid it can't be both ways; either the covers can't be used at all, or they can be taken into account so long as nothing contradicts them.

29) Yeah, that one was my bad. I have dyspraxia, so I often hit the wrong keys and then I end up with confusing sentences.

31) Also my bad. The only hint to placing was on the Reference Guide, so I just took it as fact without thinking about publication order.

32) And, Reference Guide. I think it's written on a blurb like with the Titan Comics, but don't take my word for it.

33) There a period where Doc7 goes down a darker path in his old age, implied to be because he is nearing the end and thinks the ends will justify the means. I mentioned it there to remind myself to put that story in the general part of his dark life.

35) There's perfect implication that it leads into the movie. What else would the High Council want of the Doctor that Big Finish wouldn't mention directly at this stage?

Also, I try not the remove information when possible. I always strive to include new info. It's just you rearranged the timeline so much I got lost. So, I reverted it to the version I was familiar with and updated your edits. Sorry if that offended you, but I was only trying to find the middle ground that pleased everyone.

To each his own, BananaClownMan ☎  08:29, July 15, 2016 (UTC)

Mary's Story
I don't like conflicts. But I already erroneously moved around the comment you deleted. So it seems fair if I defend it now. However, I would be happy to listen to your arguments before restoring the passage. Unfortunately, I could not understand your note to the edit. You say this is disallowed, but the previous edit before you is by Shambala108, an admin, who was doing cleanup. If this passage violates the policies, known to Shambala108 much better than to you, why did she not delete it? Could you please cite which policy it violates? Secondly, could you be more specific when referring to Big Bang Generation et al.? Which other stories are meant under et al.? And which part of the page or the talk page or of a forum discussion says that the acknowledgment of continuities in Mary's Story is not notable enough?

Please keep in mind that the Eighth Doctor is a unique doctor as far as continuities go. Every other doctor has a clear timeline from TV episodes first, with other media inserted in the already established timeline from regeneration to regeneration. The Eighth Doctor, on the contrary, has barely any TV presence and his timeline was developed more or less independently by multiple media: books, comics, Big Finish audios. This independent development creates a lot of headache for making a coherent version of his life. Thus, to have an audio story that directly references his comic-book and book lives is, in a sense, as special as having The Night of the Doctor directly reference his audio companions. So I strongly believe that such confirmations for the Eighth Doctor are very much notable. Even Paul McGann himself said in an interview that the latter confirmation finally resolved his doubts over whether his Doctor is a canonical Doctor or not.

As I said, I would be happy to listen to your arguments, but I don't believe this matter is simple. I would suggest to have a discussion on the talk page or in the forum before deleting this passage. Amorkuz ☎  18:28, July 16, 2016 (UTC)

Narvin Edit
I couldn't fit this in the edit summary bit, the reason why I have reverted you're edit so that the Return of Omega goes after The Eminence Wars, is that in the Death of Hope, Narvin tells the Doctor that he's asked the High Council to protect Heron's world, and that if the Doctor agrees the help Narvin discover what the Master plans, it would help to aid the protection as the current President a sympathies for the Doctor, ergo Romana is still president at this Time not Livia. Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 21:30, July 24, 2016 (UTC)


 * Narvin: "You don't have a choice, You see I imagine my humane alternative will hold more sway with the power that be if they know that you are involved" Romana's administration would be persuaded by the Doctor's involvement than Livia's Adric♥Nyssa∩Talk? 05:26, July 25, 2016 (UTC)