Howling:Gallifrey's destruction

Is it at all possible that Gallifrey's destruction occured at a point in time before the final battle of the Time War, from the perspective of the non-combatant civilisations? That is to say, could the Time Lords have discovered evidence during the War that Gallifrey was already destined to be destroyed at some point in their personal future? Similar to how in the latest series, the Eleventh Doctor has already died at Lake Silencio in 2011 before his other adventures? 82.2.136.93 10:40, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

The end of Series 4 clearly suggested that they do, thus they needed to implant a link in the Master's mind. I think one of the main element of the war was that even if they knew something, they couldn't be certain of it, as the Timelady clearly indicated that the Daleks and the Timelords were changing history over and over again within the war. It is quite clear that the war went out of control and laws were violated even by the Timelord, with whatever changeable in their power were indeed manipulated. It is also quite clear that the aliens encountered thus far, whenever aware that Timelords are gone seem to have no knowledge of the time lock, and as to whether they believe Gallifrey to be destroyed or not, I think it would be largely irrelevant to most races as the Timelords are extremely ancient to most of the races that we have encountered and have knowledge of them, and they are shrouded in mystery. Most of them would know very little about society let alone the detail of their downfall. The aliens also seem to have no knowledge that Timelords have, through regenerations during the war, degenerated into an agressive race, so it is quite evident that they would all know very little about anything related to the war. --222.166.181.36 16:08, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

One classic series adventure that I don't think could happen in the current timeline would be The Mysterious Planet. That story involved people millions of years in the future sneaking onto Gallifrey and stealing secrets from the Matrix, after which the Time Lords dislocated Earth from its orbit and renamed it Ravalox. But as of circa 2007 AD, Gallifrey is inaccessible, so people indigenous to 1,999,500 AD wouldn't have been able to go there, would they? The idea presented in the new series is that Gallifrey and the Time Lords no longer exist anywhere or anywhen in time and space, whether in the past, present or future. Of course, this does beg the question of how the Third Doctor was still exiled to Earth to become UNIT's scientific advisor in the current version of events......82.2.136.93 19:07, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Nope, nowhere has it ever indicate that Gallifrey or Timelords are wiped from existence. Gallifrey is timelocked, and that's it, not inexistent, not dead, etc. Any story with any people from any time are not ruled out because of the war as the Timelock occurs relative to Gallifrey's timeline only. Moreover, Gallifrey is in ancient past anyway, so it wouldn't matter what time in the Humanitarian Era the time traveller is from. --222.166.181.68 20:36, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Well Gallifrey was destroyed. The Doctor burned it. The Time Lock is just why nobody can travel into the Time War or to a point before the war. However, it wasn't destroyed as of circa 2007 AD. The Time Lords are time travellers. Before the war they could have travelled to 1,999,500 or 2007 or any other time. It the Doctor talked to Sabalom Glitz or travelled to Ravalox, he would still find things the same, even though the Time Lords are now gone.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:06, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

There's still the problem of how races like the Sontarans can be so certain that the Time War is over and done with, or that the Doctor they're seeing is the one who's experienced Gallifrey's destruction, when they're stuck in linear time. 82.2.136.93 22:30, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

This, by the way, is the main reason I suspect that during the Time War, the Time Lord's sphere of influence was confined to a point before 2005 (when the Nestene Consciousness attacks Earth after its protein planets have been wiped out in the War, in Rose). Though if that was the case, you'd wonder why the Daleks, who operated from the future, would be so determined to conquer them......82.2.136.93 22:42, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

You can ignore Icecreamdif's comment, it contradicts with what's shown in the End of Time. The point was raised in an old thread and a possibility was raised that the Doctor cannot travel to any time that would open up a probability of interfereing the timelock. And even if this is true, because the beginning and end of time is so huge that the chance of encountering a time he can't travel to would be slim. Moreover, you can pretty much assume that if a race is time aware, then they would be pretty darn careful about what they say unless they are pretty sure of it. We know that Daleks wouldn't dare to mess with fixed points, and we know that both Cybus Cybermen and Daleks have collected extensive information concerning the Doctor including his different incarnations, so if Cybus Cybermen can do it, then you can assume pretty much everyone can do it. The name Rassilon Era is probably a good indication of Timelord's era of major influence, thus it's quite unreasonable to assume that the Timelord has a clear sphere of influence that extends to sometime in the Humanian Era. --222.166.181.32 23:14, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

No. The Gallifrey scenes in End of Time were quite clearly stated to take place the day before the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey. It's how time travel works. Without the time lock, it's just like Earth. The Doctor and Rose saw it blow up in The End of the World, but they still go there all the time, due to time travel. If you want to look at it from a linear point of view from the Time Lord's perspective, here's what happened. First, Rassilon and Omega invented time travel, and the Time Lords were around for billions of years. Then the events of the classic series and the TV movie occured. Then, some time after the movie, the Time War began, and was put into a time lock at some point. During the time locked war, the Time Lords somehow created or found a crazy oracle, who eventually predicted that the war would end when the Eigth (or maybe Ninth) Doctor destroyed Gallifrey and the Daleks. Rassilon didn't want to die, because he's a hypocrite, so he decided to use the Master to break out of the time lock. Unfortuanetly for him, the Tenth Doctor and the Master stopped him, and Gallifrey was returned to the time war within the time lock. The next day, the Eigth (or Ninth) Doctor ended the war by destroying Gallifrey, which led into the new series. The question of non-Daleks and Time Lords time travellers not knowing about the Time War in the classic series was discussed to death a few months ago, and I don't think that anyone agreed on anything. Anyway, there were definetly other classic episodes that took place in the future that mentioned Time Lord involvement (The Curse of Peladon for example), and we don't even know when the Gallifrey episodes were supposed to take place.Icecreamdif talk to me 00:21, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me like whenever you go in time now, the Time Lords have always been extinct; they've never been around, because they're absent from all of time and space!! Save for the Doctor, of course. 194.168.208.42 12:01, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

It seems more like whenever you go in time "now" the Time Lords have been extinct for some time, but the fact that the Sontarans and Jo and many other people do remember the Time Lords means that they still have existed even though they don't now.Icecreamdif talk to me 16:39, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

i think people seemed to agree in the previous thread on this topic that space-time is 5 dimentional and that gallifrey was stuck in the past on the second dimention of time. i'm not going to go into detail, but the archived copy of the thread can be found here with all the discussion that went on, so we do not have to repeat ourselves http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Howling:How_does_everyone_know_the_Time_Lords_are_gone%3F&t=20111107194042 121.216.142.176 07:40, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

(sorry. forgot to log in before posting. the previous post was me.) Imamadmad talk to me 08:00, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, here's a really made theory, please let me know what you think: At some point in linear time before 2005, Gallifrey gets blown up (whether it always existed in this era, or shifted its spatial-temporal location during the War is up to you). In linear time, numerous other battles and skirmishes were fought between Time Lords and Daleks in the future, but from the POV of the Time Lords, had occured in their past. Everything that happened in linear time prior to Gallifrey blowing up remained unchanged (explaining how the Time Lords were still able to exile the Third Doctor to Earth), but places were significant things happened after this point separated from the timeline and became inaccessible, obscured by temporal storms. After Gallifrey blew up and took all the Time Lords with it, ultra-powerful, time-sensitive civilisations such as the Shadow Proclamation deemed it safe to give the linear races The History of the Time Lords and the Last Great Time War, or A History of the Future-That-Was. All those future battles are gone now anyway, so a bit of retrospective knowledge won't alter their outcome. Unfortunately, we're still left with some problems such as Jack Harkness being surprised to meet a Time Lord in the 1940s in The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. 82.2.136.93 12:27, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

The year 2005 has nothing to do with anything. In the Classic series, there were episodes set both before and after 2005 that featured Time Lord involvement, and in the new series there are episodes set both before and after 2005 where the Time Lords are extinct. 2005 is just the first year that we saw the Doctor visit after the Time War. He could have just as easily gone to 1963, or 100000,Icecreamdif talk to me 18:21, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

He did go to 1963. In Rose, it was shown that the 9th (post Time War) Doctor had visited 1883 (Krakatoa) and 1912 (Titanic), as well as 1963 (assassination of President Kennedy). All these featured in Clive's research into the Doctor. --2.96.24.170 22:03, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

That doesn't mean he went to these places before he went to 2005. Boblipton talk to me 22:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

No, but it does mean he went there. Also, none of Clive's stuff indicated Rose Tyler was with the Doctor when he was in those places. After the end of Rose (the episode), Rose (the person) was with him pretty constantly until he regenerated -- and when she wasn't, we know where he was. He could, of course, have visited other times during some of his absences from the events shown in Rose (the episode). --2.96.24.170 22:54, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Afterthought: If Steven Moffat, rather than Russell T. Davies, had written Rose(the episode), Rose (the person) might have seen herself in some of the photographs. It's the sort of thing SM goes in for but RTD didn't. --2.96.24.170 23:01, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget though, at the end of that episode there was supposed to be some tension over whether or not Rose was going to go with him, and at parts whether or not she would even survive. Then, in The End of the World and Aliens in London she seriously considered going back home and leaving the Doctor. If we had seen photographs of her with him in the future, then we would already know what happens and there would be no suspense. Besides, the first episode of the show in almost a decade isn't the time to bring out complicated timey-wimey premises. Moffat can do that now because the new series has already gathered a fanbase under RTD, but in Rose RTD had to make a show that would attract new viewers, which would be much easier to do with a simpler storyline. It was more important to introduce concepts like the time travelling police box being bigger on the inside. RTD brought his own complicated paradoxe in before too long though, with Bad Wolf.Icecreamdif talk to me 02:15, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

If we assume that the Sontarans seen in the new series are not time travellers (or if they do have time travel tech, it's probably very crude), how do they know that the Time War is over? 194.168.208.42 11:14, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

They know because the Time Lords are gone and the pre-War Daleks. Alternatively, someone told them. Boblipton talk to me 12:14, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention that they already had crude time travel tech back in the 13th century, so they must have something at least a bit more advanced by now. Besides, do you really think that the Sontarans wouldn't want to keep up to date on the biggest war in all of creation? I mean, their debut story was called The Time Warior. As a race of time warriors, the Sontarans must have felt that fighting in a Time War was something that they were practically born (or cloned) to do. Even if they didn't have any time travel technology, and were unable to track down any Time Lords or Daleks to check if they were alive or not, they would probably invade a time sensitive species just so they could recieve news about this glorius war that they were sadly forbidden from fighting in.Icecreamdif talk to me 16:43, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

It seems as though as far as the lesser races are aware, the bulk of the Time War proper never happened in current history; the only real evidence of it is the loss of Gallifrey. No one would give anyone the full history of what happened in the War, as that would give them the opportunity of altering its outcome. One question though: In the current timeline, will Morbius still lead his armies to attempt to conquer the galaxy in about a thousand years time, leading to his capture, "execution", and exile on Karn (which, incidentally, is widely held to be in the vicinity of Gallifrey)? 82.2.136.93 11:20, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

That's already happened. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but try looking at it this way: everything we see in the Whoniverse is the Doctor's personal timeline -- modified by the stuff we read in the Companion chronicles and so forth. Morbius has already happened. The Doctor doesn't cross back into his own events, and neither do we. The fact thatit's in our one-time-dimensional future is no more significant that an octopus poking holes into a sheet of paper is to a picture on that paper. It doesn't give us a proper view of time in its "real" progression, any more than a an octopus tentacle informs a picture on the paper of the octopus' full shape.Boblipton talk to me 15:45, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

One reason I suspect that Gallifrey blowing up when it did may well have aready been a fixed point in history before the Time Lords themselves started fighting the Daleks in the Time War, is because if Gallifrey's destruction was a completely "new" event that hadn't happened at all until the Doctor made it happen (if you follow my reasoning) then the timeline after that point would've changed from the way it originally was, which may well have led to a version of history where the Daleks became more powerful than ever! 82.2.136.93 20:59, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, this brings me to another point: If the Time War was between the Time Lords and the Daleks, how were other civilisations and worlds affected by it, such as the Nestene Consciousness, the Gelth, Arcadia, etc, etc? What could have brought them into the conflict? 82.2.136.93 21:22, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

It's a big war, naturally smaller powers would have been drawn into the conflict. Just look at the number of times that the Sontarans have invaded the Earth for its strategic location in their war against the Rutans. Its the same idea. The Daleks could have invaded the Nestene's world for strategic reasons, or because they need some extra plastic for their progenitor device. In a war that big, you can hardly expect all the battles to be fought on Skaro and Gallifrey. It's possible that the time war was a fixed point, but you would think that the Time Lords would have seen it coming if that were the case. Maybe, by the time the war started, Rassilon realised that Gallifrey's destruction was a fixed point, which would explain why he felt that destroying time was the only way to prevent it.Icecreamdif talk to me 22:08, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

about the point of why the war affected other races and planets, think of the past 2 world wars. most people consider them to be between england+france vs germany. however, a lot of other countries were allied to those main countries who were fighting and were drawn into the war as well. this probably happened with the time war. the timelords and/or daleks probably allied with other races in an attempt to gain more power than the other side. and don't say the daleks wouldn't alli wit other races to suit their puropse. pandorica opens proved that. and chances are, if the daleks did it, the timelords would have done it too. Imamadmad talk to me 00:51, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Smaller powers. In World War Two, the Germans invaded France by way of Belgium. Luxembourg got invaded too. If the Germans are Daleks and the French are Time Lords, then the the Nestenes could be Belgium and the Gelth, well, they're Luxembourg. As people with machine guns like to say, "collateral damage." Boblipton talk to me 01:24, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

In The End of Time, according to the Partisan, Gallifrey was "on the farthest edge" of the war and "at its heart" entire races were being wiped out, then resurrected "by time itself", only to be slaughtered again in even nastier ways. She gave no details or reasons, so we don't know which races were affected or why, but her speech was enough to show that the war was very extensive and involved several -- possibly many -- races in addition to the Daleks and the Time Lords. The Partisan's speech makes Gallifrey sound more like Britain than France: under attack but on the edge and not the scene of the main battles, with both "great powers" fighting mainly on the territories of other peoples. --89.242.75.75 06:42, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

She meant that they were on the edge of the war in terms of time, not space. It was the day before the war ended, so they were at its edge, but, say a year ago, in Gallifreyan history, they were closer to the center when people were being slaughtered and ressurected. But, yes-the war did presumably involve many more races than the Daleks and the Time Lords. Actually, without knowing the details of the war, it is possible that it wasn't even initially a conflict between the Time Lords and Daleks. Maybe the Nestene decided that it would be fun to bring the Gelth's window dummies to life, sparking a war between the two. If either of the species had time travel technology, or had allies with time travel technology, the war could easily have escalated and eventually drawn the Daleks and Time Lords in, who became the biggest players in the war. Obviously I'm just using the Nestene and Gelth as examples because they are the only other species that we know were in the war, but you get the point.Icecreamdif talk to me 06:52, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

See, if Gallifrey's destruction wasn't always part of history, then its blowing up whenever it did would effect the rest of history. The Time War might never have happened, because every instance of it would've taken place in a timeline where Gallifrey was never blown up when it was. But if it never happened, the Daleks wouldn't have vanished, as they were described to have done in The Parting of the Ways. 82.2.136.93 11:44, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

82.2.136.93: I'm extremely reluctant to appear thick but I have to admit I don't understand that at all. Please elucidate. --78.146.186.213 16:03, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Icecreamdif, "She meant that they were on the edge of the war in terms of time, not space": From the context, the Partisan did mean space. She was advocating ending what was currently happening, not reflecting on what had happened but had already ended. Her speech would have been pointless, otherwise. Whichever she meant, though, the inferences still stand. --78.146.186.213 16:30, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

But it was a time war. Reflecting on what had already happenned is the same as reflecting on what was still happenning. Time Lords now could be being sent back to battles in the past. Just looking at Gallifrey in the episode, the Daleks had clearly attacked it, and if the Doctor was able to destroy Gallifrey and the Daleks at once, there must have been plenty going on there. 82, Gallifrey would have been destroyed after all the previous events of the Time War had occured in Gallifrey's personal timeline. The Daleks would already have disappeared to fight the war. There is no paradox there.Icecreamdif talk to me 19:20, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

'I know what you're thinking about,' said Tweedledum; 'but it isn't so, nohow.'

'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'

I think that sums it up. Boblipton talk to me 19:40, November 20, 2011 (UTC)